Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Apr 2016 20:28

Continuing from "Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society" thread

shiv wrote:Let me introduce at this stage, for comments and edification if possible a translation of Al Beruni's observation on "caste". Al Beruni notably does not appear to use the word Caste as the translation does. He says "varna" and "jataka" as per the translation
http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415485432/14.asp
The Hindus call their castes varṇa, i.e. colours, and from a genealogical point of view they call them jâtaka, i.e. births. These castes are from the very beginning only four.

I. The highest caste are the Brâhmaṇa, of whom the books of the Hindus tell that they were created from the head of Brahman. And as Brahman is only another name for the force called nature, and the head is the highest part of the animal body, the Brâhmaṇa are the choice part of the whole genus. Therefore the Hindus consider them as the very best of mankind.
II. The next caste are the Kshatriya, who were created, as they say, from the shoulders and hands of Brahman. Their degree is not much below that of the Brâhmaṇa.
III. After them follow the Vaiśya, who were created from the thigh of Brahman.
IV. The Śûdra, who were created from his feet.

Between the latter two classes there is no very great distance. Much, however, as these classes differ from each other, they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings.

After the Śûdra follow the people called Antyaja, who render various kinds of services, who are not reckoned amongst any caste, but only as members of a certain craft or profession. There are eight classes of them, who freely intermarry with each other, except the fuller, shoemaker, and weaver, for no others would condescend to have anything to do with them. These eight guilds are the fuller, shoemaker, juggler, the basket and shield maker, the sailor, fisherman, the hunter of wild animals and of birds, and the weaver. The four castes do not live together with them in one and the same place. These guilds live near the villages and towns of the four castes, but outside them.

The people called Hâḍî, Ḍoma (Ḍomba), Caṇḍâla, and Badhatau (sic) are not reckoned amongst any caste or guild. They are occupied with dirty work, like the cleansing of the villages and other services. They are considered as one sole class, and distinguished only by their occupations. In fact, they are considered like illegitimate children; for according to general opinion they descend from a Śûdra father and a Brâhmaṇî mother as the children of fornication; therefore they are degraded outcasts.

The Hindus give to every single man of the four castes characteristic names, according to their occupations and modes of life. E.g. the Brâhmaṇa is in general called by this name as long as he does his work staying at home. When he is busy with the service of one fire, he is called ishṭin; if he serves three fires, he is called agnihôtrin; if he besides offers an offering to the fire, he is called dîkshita. And as it is with the Brâhmaṇa, so is it also with the other castes. Of the classes beneath the castes, the Hâḍî are the best spoken of, because they keep themselves free from everything unclean. Next follow the Ḍôma, who play on the lute and sing. The still lower classes practise as a trade killing and the inflicting of judicial punishments. The worst of all are the Badhatau, who not only devour the flesh of dead animals, but even of dogs and other beasts.

Each of the four castes, when eating together, must form a group for themselves, one group not being allowed to comprise two men of different castes. If, further, in the group of the Brâhmaṇa there are two men who live at enmity with each other, and the seat of the one is by the side of the other, they make a barrier between the two seats by placing a board between them, or by spreading a piece of dress, or in some other way; and if there is only a line drawn between them, they are considered as separated. Since it is forbidden to eat the remains of a meal, every single man must have his own food for himself; for if any one of the party who are eating should take of the food from one and the same plate, that which remains in the plate becomes, after the first eater has taken part, to him who wants to take as the second, the remains of the meal, and such is forbidden.
Such is the condition of the four castes.

These Ḍôma are the forefathers of the Roma, also called as gypsies, living in Europe and Anatolia.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 22 Apr 2016 21:25

peter wrote: Does anyone (johnny?) have all references to Saraswati in Valmiki ramayana handy?

How does one determine which is the oldest ramayana text we have?

स प्रान् मुखो राज गृहात् अभिनिर्याय वीर्यवान् |
ततः सुदामाम् द्युतिमान् सम्तीर्वावेक्ष्य ताम् नदीम् || २-७१-१
ह्लादिनीम् दूर पाराम् च प्रत्यक् स्रोतः तरन्गिणीम् |
शतद्रूम् अतरत् श्रीमान् नदीम् इक्ष्वाकु नन्दनः || २-७१-२

That brilliant and glorious Bharata, who was a rejoice to Ikshvaku dynasty marching in easterly direction from the city of Rajagriha, thereafter observing and crossing Sudama* river as well as the wide Hladini river, whose stream flowed towards eastern direction.
The route Bharata drove was a different one from the route the messengers had taken from Ayodhya to Rajagriha. This is a longer route and it took a complete week for Bharata to reach Ayodhya

एल धाने नदीम् तीर्त्वा प्राप्य च अपर पर्पटान् |
शिलाम् आकुर्वतीम् तीर्त्वाआग्नेयम् शल्य कर्तनम् || २-७१-३
सत्य संधः शुचिः श्रीमान् प्रेक्षमाणः शिला वहाम् |
अत्ययात् स महा शैलान् वनम् चैत्र रथम् प्रति || २-७१-४

The pure and illustrious Bharata, who kept up his promise, crossing shatradru river at Eladhana village, reaching the region of Apara parpata, crossing a rocky hill called akurvati, seeing the villages of Agneyam and salyakartana as well as Silavaha river, crossed huge mountains and traveled towards the woods of Chitraratha.

सरस्वतीम् च गङ्गाम् च उग्मेन प्रतिपद्य च |
उत्तरम् वीरमत्स्यानाम् भारुण्डम् प्राविशद्वनम् || २-७१-५

Arriving at the confluence of Saraswathi and Ganga rivers, Bharata entered the woods of Bharmuda, the north of Viramatsaya region.

वेगिनीम् च कुलिन्ग आख्याम् ह्रादिनीम् पर्वत आवृताम् |
यमुनाम् प्राप्य सम्तीर्णो बलम् आश्वासयत् तदा || २-७१-६

Reaching and crossing a refreshing river named Kulinga, which is swift and surrounded by mountains as well as Yamuna river, the army was then made to rest there.

Ayodhya Kanda, Chapter[Sarga] 71, Shloka 5

तत्र सीताम् च वैदेहीम् निलयम् रावणस्य च || ४-४०-१९
मार्गध्वम् गिरि दुर्गेषु वनेषु च नदीषु च |

The eastside is not the eastside of Kishkindha, but to the East of jambuu dviipa 'Indian subcontinent... inclusive of South-East Asia...' The meridian of the Saraswathi Triveni - the confluence of rivers Ila, Bharati, and Saraswathi - is still the prime meridian for Indian astronomers. The first observatory Ujjain Observatory is on this meridian. uddicya pascimottaraH tasyaaH sharaavatyaaH avadheH yaH pascimottaH - sa uddicya iti ucyate Taking Ujjain, the place where one ancient river flowed circuitously in Central India, named Sharavati, as the centre of the country, the ancient astronomers have decided the quarters. So, Sugreeva said about the absolute east of India but not about the east of his small kingdom.

नदीम् भागीरथीम् रम्याम् सरयूम् कौशिकीम् तथा || ४-४०-२०
कालिंदीम् यमुनाम् रम्याम् यामुनम् च महागिरिम् |
सरस्वतीम् च सिंधुम् च शोणम् मणि निभ उदकम् || ४-४०-२१
महीम् कालमहीम् चैव शैल कानन शोभिताम् |
ब्रह्ममालान् विदेहान् च मालवान् काशि कोसलान् || ४-४०-२२
मागधाम् च महाग्रामान् पुण्ड्रान् अंगाम् तथैव च |
भूमिम् च कोशकाराणाम् भूमिम् च रजत आकराम् || ४-४०-२३

"Search shall be conducted at the riversides of heartening rivers like River Bhaagiirathi, another name for River Ganga, and River Sarayu, like that at River Kaushiki, and at the pleasing surrounds of River Yamuna, and on Mt. Kalinda, as well at River Saraswathi, River Sindhu and at the river whose waters are lustrous like gems, namely River Shona, and further at River Mahi and River Kaalamahi which rivers are brightened by mountains and forests surrounding them. And the kingdoms like Brahmamaala, Videha, Maalva, Kaashi, and Kosala, and in Maagadha, which kingdom has grand villages, and in that way, also in the kingdoms of Pundra and Anga, and in the countries of the kings called Koshakaara, and in the provinces of silver mines search is to be conducted. [4-40-20b, 21, 22, 23]
The mention of these two western rivers, Saraswathi and Sindhu, at this eastern place, to where Vinata is being sent, is a disputed matter. The River Saraswathi is the river of Vedic period that once coursed but later disappeared or is coursing underground. This river is 'this creative centre of Man, River Saraswathi, was made by the deva-s...' Rig Veda, 3.33.4, and 'all life takes its origin from your [Saraswathi womb... Rig Veda, 2-4, 9-17. Presently research work is undertaken to find out this river under the banner 'Saraswathi Nadi Shodh Abhiyaan' and they are trying to find out the palaeodrainage, the buried course of this river. It is believed that this perennial river was flowing from Himalayas through Punjab, Haryana, Western Rajasthan, and through the Rann of Kutch in Gujarat, and it is said that if this could be traced an abundant source of underground water could be established.

Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 40, Shloka 21

This is the description of Eastern side. But, Saraswathi and Sindh rivers are mentioned. This perplexed readers. But, it seems that there are Sindh and Saraswathi rivers in the east as well. Sindh river in the east is a tributary of Yamuna. wiki link Similarly, Saraswathi river seems to be referring to an earlier river in Bengal. Wiki Link I think that after the Saraswathi dried up in the west, other rivers were named after the Saraswathi in Bengal or Haraxwathi in Afghanistan.

When western side is described, no Saraswathi is mentioned. But, Sindh is mentioned in the west. west is also described as desert.

Mention of Maru(Desert) in Vaalmiki Raamayana:

प्रत्यक् स्रोतो वहाः चैव नद्यः शीतजलाः शिवाः || ४-४२-८
तापसानाम् अरण्यानि कांतारा गिरयः च ये |
तत्र स्थलीः मरुप्राया अति उच्च शिखराः शिलाः || ४-४२-९
गिरि जाल आवृताम् दुर्गाम् मार्गित्वा पश्चिमाम् दिशम् |
ततः पश्चिमम् आगम्य समुद्रम् द्रष्टुम् अर्हथ || ४-४२-१०
तिमि नक्र आकुल जलम् गत्वा द्रक्ष्यथ वानराः |

"Oh, vanara-s, search at the blest rivers in the west whose cool water flows westward, as well as in the forests of sages and on the mountains of those forests, and even in lands that are virtually waterless and on the highly towering mountains that are chilly. On searching such an impassable western quarter encircled with enmeshed mountains, then it will be apt of you to come and see Western Ocean. Having come to Western Ocean, you will see seawater ruffled by sharks and crocodiles. [8b, 9, 10, 11a]

Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 42, Shloka 09.

तस्य तद्वचनम् श्रुत्वा सागरस्य महात्मनः || २-२२-३४
मुमोच तम् शरम् दीप्तम् परम् सागरदर्शनात् |

Hearing those words of the high-soled Ocean, Rama released that excellent and splendid arrow towards that place as directed by the ocean.

तेन तन्मरुकान्तारम् पृथिव्याम् किल विश्रुतम् || २-२२-३५
विपातितः शरो यत्र वज्राशनिसमप्रभः |

The place where the arrow, whose splendor was akin to that of a thunder and a thunder bolt, was descended by Rama- that place is indeed famous as desert of Maru* on this earth.
* Maru = Marwar in Rajastan (India)

ननाद च तदा तत्र वसुधा शल्यपीडिता || २-२२-३६
तस्माद्बाणमुखात्तोयमुत्पपात रसातलात् |

The earth there, pierced by the dart, then emitted a sound . The waters of the penultimate subterranean region gushed forth from the mouth of that cleft.

स बभूव तदा कूपो व्रण इत्येव विश्रुतः || २-२२-३७
सततम् चोत्थितम् तोयम् समुद्रस्येव दृश्यते |

Then the hollow became known as Vrana. Water constantly seen, gushing forth from it resembled seawater.

अवदारणशब्दश्च दारुणः समपद्यत || २-२२-३८
तस्मात्तद्बाणपातेन अपः कुक्षिष्वशोषयत् |

A terrific splitting sound was born in that place. Water was dried up in those cavities, as a result of hurling of that arrow by Rama.

विख्यातम् त्रिषु लोकेषु मधुकान्तारमेव च || २-२२-३९
शोषयित्वा तु तम् कुक्षिम् रामो दशरथात्मजः |
वरम् तस्मै ददौ विद्वान्मरवेऽमरविक्रमः || २-२२-४०

That desert of Maru became famous in the three worlds. Rama (the son of Dasaratha), a wise man and a valiant man resembling a celestial, made that cavity dried up and gave a boon to that desert of Maru.

पशव्यश्चाल्परोगश्च फलमूलरसायुतः |
बहुस्नेहो बहुक्षीरः सुगन्धिर्विविधौषधिः || २-२२-४१
एवमेतैर्गुणैर्युक्तो बहिभिः सम्युतो मरुः |
रामस्य वरदानाच्च शिवः पन्था बभूव ह || २-२२-४२

Due to granting of a boon by Rama, that desert of Maru became the most congenial place for cattle rearing, a place with a little of disease, producing tasty fruits and roots, with a lot of clarified butter, a lot of milk and various kinds of sweet- smelling herbs. Thus it became an auspicious and suitable move, bestowing these merits.

Yuddha Kanda, Chapter [Sarga] 22, Shloka 35

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Apr 2016 18:58

While the gentle Rshis are in chai-biskoot on such happy contemplations, the Rakshasas as usual have been busy plotting, and are now in full rampage. They have totally pakistanned the California 6th grade textbooks - apparently now all reference to India is replaced with South Asia, all reference to Islamic genocide is replaced with "modest expansion of benevolent rule" etc etc.

Any dhagas to deal with this? Here is the great Sage Juluri Himself with lots of fulminations of terminological exactitude, but you can see the problem and the usual cast:Marxist Commie bibis, Dalit-paki-EJ bibis, plain wacko bibis, 400% pakis, soul-harvesters, racists, corrupt CA Bored members, 0-watt papparazzi, The Hundi, etc. etc. Like an American movie: all villains, no heroes.

The vanaras who won the last war are long gone, or tired and decrepit as Jaambavaan.

The New Crop of Wunderkinden who infest the ranks of the Hundi Right are Smart, OverAchievers, and 400% 404 - as was the case in the Age of The Vanaras.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Apr 2016 19:19

UlanBatori ji,

I have cross-posted the post to "The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition" thread where it can be discussed.

peter · Post by **peter** » 24 Apr 2016 19:20

johneeG wrote:
peter wrote: Does anyone (johnny?) have all references to Saraswati in Valmiki ramayana handy?

How does one determine which is the oldest ramayana text we have?

स प्रान् मुखो राज गृहात् अभिनिर्याय वीर्यवान् |
ततः सुदामाम् द्युतिमान् सम्तीर्वावेक्ष्य ताम् नदीम् || २-७१-१
ह्लादिनीम् दूर पाराम् च प्रत्यक् स्रोतः तरन्गिणीम् |
शतद्रूम् अतरत् श्रीमान् नदीम् इक्ष्वाकु नन्दनः || २-७१-२

That brilliant and glorious Bharata, who was a rejoice to Ikshvaku dynasty marching in easterly direction from the city of Rajagriha, thereafter observing and crossing Sudama* river as well as the wide Hladini river, whose stream flowed towards eastern direction.
The route Bharata drove was a different one from the route the messengers had taken from Ayodhya to Rajagriha. This is a longer route and it took a complete week for Bharata to reach Ayodhya

एल धाने नदीम् तीर्त्वा प्राप्य च अपर पर्पटान् |
शिलाम् आकुर्वतीम् तीर्त्वाआग्नेयम् शल्य कर्तनम् || २-७१-३
सत्य संधः शुचिः श्रीमान् प्रेक्षमाणः शिला वहाम् |
अत्ययात् स महा शैलान् वनम् चैत्र रथम् प्रति || २-७१-४

The pure and illustrious Bharata, who kept up his promise, crossing shatradru river at Eladhana village, reaching the region of Apara parpata, crossing a rocky hill called akurvati, seeing the villages of Agneyam and salyakartana as well as Silavaha river, crossed huge mountains and traveled towards the woods of Chitraratha.

सरस्वतीम् च गङ्गाम् च उग्मेन प्रतिपद्य च |
उत्तरम् वीरमत्स्यानाम् भारुण्डम् प्राविशद्वनम् || २-७१-५

Arriving at the confluence of Saraswathi and Ganga rivers, Bharata entered the woods of Bharmuda, the north of Viramatsaya region.

वेगिनीम् च कुलिन्ग आख्याम् ह्रादिनीम् पर्वत आवृताम् |
यमुनाम् प्राप्य सम्तीर्णो बलम् आश्वासयत् तदा || २-७१-६

Reaching and crossing a refreshing river named Kulinga, which is swift and surrounded by mountains as well as Yamuna river, the army was then made to rest there.
Ayodhya Kanda, Chapter[Sarga] 71, Shloka 5

तत्र सीताम् च वैदेहीम् निलयम् रावणस्य च || ४-४०-१९
मार्गध्वम् गिरि दुर्गेषु वनेषु च नदीषु च |

The eastside is not the eastside of Kishkindha, but to the East of jambuu dviipa 'Indian subcontinent... inclusive of South-East Asia...' The meridian of the Saraswathi Triveni - the confluence of rivers Ila, Bharati, and Saraswathi - is still the prime meridian for Indian astronomers. The first observatory Ujjain Observatory is on this meridian. uddicya pascimottaraH tasyaaH sharaavatyaaH avadheH yaH pascimottaH - sa uddicya iti ucyate Taking Ujjain, the place where one ancient river flowed circuitously in Central India, named Sharavati, as the centre of the country, the ancient astronomers have decided the quarters. So, Sugreeva said about the absolute east of India but not about the east of his small kingdom.

नदीम् भागीरथीम् रम्याम् सरयूम् कौशिकीम् तथा || ४-४०-२०
कालिंदीम् यमुनाम् रम्याम् यामुनम् च महागिरिम् |
सरस्वतीम् च सिंधुम् च शोणम् मणि निभ उदकम् || ४-४०-२१
महीम् कालमहीम् चैव शैल कानन शोभिताम् |
ब्रह्ममालान् विदेहान् च मालवान् काशि कोसलान् || ४-४०-२२
मागधाम् च महाग्रामान् पुण्ड्रान् अंगाम् तथैव च |
भूमिम् च कोशकाराणाम् भूमिम् च रजत आकराम् || ४-४०-२३

"Search shall be conducted at the riversides of heartening rivers like River Bhaagiirathi, another name for River Ganga, and River Sarayu, like that at River Kaushiki, and at the pleasing surrounds of River Yamuna, and on Mt. Kalinda, as well at River Saraswathi, River Sindhu and at the river whose waters are lustrous like gems, namely River Shona, and further at River Mahi and River Kaalamahi which rivers are brightened by mountains and forests surrounding them. And the kingdoms like Brahmamaala, Videha, Maalva, Kaashi, and Kosala, and in Maagadha, which kingdom has grand villages, and in that way, also in the kingdoms of Pundra and Anga, and in the countries of the kings called Koshakaara, and in the provinces of silver mines search is to be conducted. [4-40-20b, 21, 22, 23]
The mention of these two western rivers, Saraswathi and Sindhu, at this eastern place, to where Vinata is being sent, is a disputed matter. The River Saraswathi is the river of Vedic period that once coursed but later disappeared or is coursing underground. This river is 'this creative centre of Man, River Saraswathi, was made by the deva-s...' Rig Veda, 3.33.4, and 'all life takes its origin from your [Saraswathi womb... Rig Veda, 2-4, 9-17. Presently research work is undertaken to find out this river under the banner 'Saraswathi Nadi Shodh Abhiyaan' and they are trying to find out the palaeodrainage, the buried course of this river. It is believed that this perennial river was flowing from Himalayas through Punjab, Haryana, Western Rajasthan, and through the Rann of Kutch in Gujarat, and it is said that if this could be traced an abundant source of underground water could be established.

Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 40, Shloka 21

This is the description of Eastern side. But, Saraswathi and Sindh rivers are mentioned. This perplexed readers. But, it seems that there are Sindh and Saraswathi rivers in the east as well. Sindh river in the east is a tributary of Yamuna. wiki link Similarly, Saraswathi river seems to be referring to an earlier river in Bengal. Wiki Link I think that after the Saraswathi dried up in the west, other rivers were named after the Saraswathi in Bengal or Haraxwathi in Afghanistan.

When western side is described, no Saraswathi is mentioned. But, Sindh is mentioned in the west. west is also described as desert.

Mention of Maru(Desert) in Vaalmiki Raamayana:
प्रत्यक् स्रोतो वहाः चैव नद्यः शीतजलाः शिवाः || ४-४२-८
तापसानाम् अरण्यानि कांतारा गिरयः च ये |
तत्र स्थलीः मरुप्राया अति उच्च शिखराः शिलाः || ४-४२-९
गिरि जाल आवृताम् दुर्गाम् मार्गित्वा पश्चिमाम् दिशम् |
ततः पश्चिमम् आगम्य समुद्रम् द्रष्टुम् अर्हथ || ४-४२-१०
तिमि नक्र आकुल जलम् गत्वा द्रक्ष्यथ वानराः |

"Oh, vanara-s, search at the blest rivers in the west whose cool water flows westward, as well as in the forests of sages and on the mountains of those forests, and even in lands that are virtually waterless and on the highly towering mountains that are chilly. On searching such an impassable western quarter encircled with enmeshed mountains, then it will be apt of you to come and see Western Ocean. Having come to Western Ocean, you will see seawater ruffled by sharks and crocodiles. [8b, 9, 10, 11a]
Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 42, Shloka 09.

तस्य तद्वचनम् श्रुत्वा सागरस्य महात्मनः || २-२२-३४
मुमोच तम् शरम् दीप्तम् परम् सागरदर्शनात् |

Hearing those words of the high-soled Ocean, Rama released that excellent and splendid arrow towards that place as directed by the ocean.

तेन तन्मरुकान्तारम् पृथिव्याम् किल विश्रुतम् || २-२२-३५
विपातितः शरो यत्र वज्राशनिसमप्रभः |

The place where the arrow, whose splendor was akin to that of a thunder and a thunder bolt, was descended by Rama- that place is indeed famous as desert of Maru* on this earth.
* Maru = Marwar in Rajastan (India)

ननाद च तदा तत्र वसुधा शल्यपीडिता || २-२२-३६
तस्माद्बाणमुखात्तोयमुत्पपात रसातलात् |

The earth there, pierced by the dart, then emitted a sound . The waters of the penultimate subterranean region gushed forth from the mouth of that cleft.

स बभूव तदा कूपो व्रण इत्येव विश्रुतः || २-२२-३७
सततम् चोत्थितम् तोयम् समुद्रस्येव दृश्यते |

Then the hollow became known as Vrana. Water constantly seen, gushing forth from it resembled seawater.

अवदारणशब्दश्च दारुणः समपद्यत || २-२२-३८
तस्मात्तद्बाणपातेन अपः कुक्षिष्वशोषयत् |

A terrific splitting sound was born in that place. Water was dried up in those cavities, as a result of hurling of that arrow by Rama.

विख्यातम् त्रिषु लोकेषु मधुकान्तारमेव च || २-२२-३९
शोषयित्वा तु तम् कुक्षिम् रामो दशरथात्मजः |
वरम् तस्मै ददौ विद्वान्मरवेऽमरविक्रमः || २-२२-४०

That desert of Maru became famous in the three worlds. Rama (the son of Dasaratha), a wise man and a valiant man resembling a celestial, made that cavity dried up and gave a boon to that desert of Maru.

पशव्यश्चाल्परोगश्च फलमूलरसायुतः |
बहुस्नेहो बहुक्षीरः सुगन्धिर्विविधौषधिः || २-२२-४१
एवमेतैर्गुणैर्युक्तो बहिभिः सम्युतो मरुः |
रामस्य वरदानाच्च शिवः पन्था बभूव ह || २-२२-४२

Due to granting of a boon by Rama, that desert of Maru became the most congenial place for cattle rearing, a place with a little of disease, producing tasty fruits and roots, with a lot of clarified butter, a lot of milk and various kinds of sweet- smelling herbs. Thus it became an auspicious and suitable move, bestowing these merits.
Yuddha Kanda, Chapter [Sarga] 22, Shloka 35

Thanks! This is mostly likely from the Dakshina Ramayana. Do you know if we have references from the other recensions of Ramayana handy?

But Maru being a desert is most likely orthogonal to Saraswati. Even if you look at Nile only a little distance from nile is arable and rest is barren.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Apr 2016 23:47

Is Your Name on an Indus Seal?
By Suzanne Marie Sullivan
Published in April 2016

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 25 Apr 2016 06:47

^
BTW, my sources tell me that Sue Sullivan article on IVC script was taken down from Swarajya due to vehement objection/protest by one Dr. (you can easily guess it) who 'vehemently' disagrees with the thesis of Sullivan.

What a sad state of Indian researchers of IVC!

They should rather critique it, brutally and rationally, and either present their own theory (assuming they have one) or show why Sullivan code is not acceptable by finding holes in the thesis.

Swarajya contact of Sue is not responding to her and gave some flimsy excuses. I was told that many of the comments for her article were rather positive, not that that should be the criteria (one way or the other) as long as her work is original and open to criticism.

Of course, it was removed from Swarajya due to hidden 'fatwa' from someone, or so it appears.

Vent off.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2016 07:17

Nilesh Oak wrote:^
BTW, my sources tell me that Sue Sullivan article on IVC script was taken down from Swarajya due to vehement objection/protest by one Dr. (you can easily guess it) who 'vehemently' disagrees with the thesis of Sullivan.

What a sad state of Indian researchers of IVC!

They should rather critique it, brutally and rationally, and either present their own theory (assuming they have one) or show why Sullivan code is not acceptable by finding holes in the thesis.

Swarajya contact of Sue is not responding to her and gave some flimsy excuses. I was told that many of the comments for her article were rather positive, not that that should be the criteria (one way or the other) as long as her work is original and open to criticism.

Of course, it was removed from Swarajya due to hidden 'fatwa' from someone, or so it appears.

Vent off.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/724430598874353664

I am disappointed that the article http://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-i-de ... ley-script … was removed by @SwarajyaMag due to external pressure. Pathetic. Shame on you

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 25 Apr 2016 08:05

^
Shiv,

I assert that the same forces are involved, who stopped publication of my books in India through a relatively well known publication house.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2016 08:15

Nilesh Oak wrote:^
Shiv,

I assert that the same forces are involved, who stopped publication of my books in India through a relatively well known publication house.

Nilesh could you email me the specific names for my knowledge. In the long term these forces need to be shown which direction Makkah really lies

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2016 08:28

shiv wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:^
BTW, my sources tell me that Sue Sullivan article on IVC script was taken down from Swarajya due to vehement objection/protest by one Dr. (you can easily guess it) who 'vehemently' disagrees with the thesis of Sullivan.

What a sad state of Indian researchers of IVC!

They should rather critique it, brutally and rationally, and either present their own theory (assuming they have one) or show why Sullivan code is not acceptable by finding holes in the thesis.

Swarajya contact of Sue is not responding to her and gave some flimsy excuses. I was told that many of the comments for her article were rather positive, not that that should be the criteria (one way or the other) as long as her work is original and open to criticism.

Of course, it was removed from Swarajya due to hidden 'fatwa' from someone, or so it appears.

Vent off.
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/724430598874353664
I am disappointed that the article http://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-i-de ... ley-script … was removed by @SwarajyaMag due to external pressure. Pathetic. Shame on you

The entire comments section in which the author has taken active part is still available for people registered with Disqus
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/swar ... 2628425669

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2016 08:51

Nilesh Oak wrote:^
Shiv,

I assert that the same forces are involved, who stopped publication of my books in India through a relatively well known publication house.

Tweet from Swarajyamag says the article will be up again with an editorial caution
https://twitter.com/prasannavishy/statu ... 2221746176

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Apr 2016 11:38

shiv wrote:Nilesh could you email me the specific names for my knowledge.

There have been others like Iravatham Mahadevan who too have worked on deciphering the Indus Script, however with a specific assumption in mind, and that is that the Indus Valley Civilization represents a "Dravidian" society, which ultimately got swept up by "Aryan tribes" coming down from the Northwest in their chariots.

Susan Sullivan is saying that the Indus Script actually encodes Sanskrit or a Sanskrit-based Prakrit. Those are two diametrically opposite assumptions.

Mahadevan started deciphering in 1970 and published his first book Indus Script: Concordance and Tables in 1977. In spite of his diligent work, his friends in the west consider Indus Script to be undeciphered and perhaps undecipherable.

peter · Post by **peter** » 25 Apr 2016 18:49

RajeshA wrote:For Ramayana, there is a date: Rāma-Janam: Nov 29, 12240 BCE as provided by Nilesh Nilkanth Oak.

Anybody who has a problem with that, needs to disprove his theory.

...

This date is on slippery slope since we have only 28 odd kings from the time of Rama to the time of Krishna.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2016 20:20

shiv wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:^
Shiv,

I assert that the same forces are involved, who stopped publication of my books in India through a relatively well known publication house.
Tweet from Swarajyamag says the article will be up again with an editorial caution
https://twitter.com/prasannavishy/statu ... 2221746176

The article is back online now. Pls tell Ms Sullivan
http://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-i-de ... ley-script

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 Apr 2016 04:30

RajeshA wrote:..

Anybody who has a problem with that, needs to disprove his theory.

For Mahabharata, there is a date: Start of War: Oct 16, 5561 BCE as provided by Nilesh Nilkanth Oak.

and 3138 BCE as believed by traditionalists based on the start of the Kālī Era at midnight on February 18, 3102 BCE. For the traditionalist view, there is support from the texts and inscriptions at least for the Kālī Era, as well as based on genealogy lists of Kings of Hastinapura.

..

Mahabharata war has some connection to data in Surya Siddhanta which states that the sun was 54 degrees away from the vernal equinox when Kali-yuga began on a new moon day. This corresponds to February 17/18, 3102 at Ujjain (75deg47minE 23deg 15 min N).

I wonder if you know whether Nilesh has an explanation for this and if he would be willing to share it?

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 Apr 2016 04:45

johneeG wrote:
peter wrote: Does anyone (johnny?) have all references to Saraswati in Valmiki ramayana handy?

How does one determine which is the oldest ramayana text we have?

स प्रान् मुखो राज गृहात् अभिनिर्याय वीर्यवान् |
ततः सुदामाम् द्युतिमान् सम्तीर्वावेक्ष्य ताम् नदीम् || २-७१-१
ह्लादिनीम् दूर पाराम् च प्रत्यक् स्रोतः तरन्गिणीम् |
शतद्रूम् अतरत् श्रीमान् नदीम् इक्ष्वाकु नन्दनः || २-७१-२

That brilliant and glorious Bharata, who was a rejoice to Ikshvaku dynasty marching in easterly direction from the city of Rajagriha, thereafter observing and crossing Sudama* river as well as the wide Hladini river, whose stream flowed towards eastern direction.
The route Bharata drove was a different one from the route the messengers had taken from Ayodhya to Rajagriha. This is a longer route and it took a complete week for Bharata to reach Ayodhya

एल धाने नदीम् तीर्त्वा प्राप्य च अपर पर्पटान् |
शिलाम् आकुर्वतीम् तीर्त्वाआग्नेयम् शल्य कर्तनम् || २-७१-३
सत्य संधः शुचिः श्रीमान् प्रेक्षमाणः शिला वहाम् |
अत्ययात् स महा शैलान् वनम् चैत्र रथम् प्रति || २-७१-४

The pure and illustrious Bharata, who kept up his promise, crossing shatradru river at Eladhana village, reaching the region of Apara parpata, crossing a rocky hill called akurvati, seeing the villages of Agneyam and salyakartana as well as Silavaha river, crossed huge mountains and traveled towards the woods of Chitraratha.

सरस्वतीम् च गङ्गाम् च उग्मेन प्रतिपद्य च |
उत्तरम् वीरमत्स्यानाम् भारुण्डम् प्राविशद्वनम् || २-७१-५

Arriving at the confluence of Saraswathi and Ganga rivers, Bharata entered the woods of Bharmuda, the north of Viramatsaya region.

वेगिनीम् च कुलिन्ग आख्याम् ह्रादिनीम् पर्वत आवृताम् |
यमुनाम् प्राप्य सम्तीर्णो बलम् आश्वासयत् तदा || २-७१-६

Reaching and crossing a refreshing river named Kulinga, which is swift and surrounded by mountains as well as Yamuna river, the army was then made to rest there.
Ayodhya Kanda, Chapter[Sarga] 71, Shloka 5

तत्र सीताम् च वैदेहीम् निलयम् रावणस्य च || ४-४०-१९
मार्गध्वम् गिरि दुर्गेषु वनेषु च नदीषु च |

The eastside is not the eastside of Kishkindha, but to the East of jambuu dviipa 'Indian subcontinent... inclusive of South-East Asia...' The meridian of the Saraswathi Triveni - the confluence of rivers Ila, Bharati, and Saraswathi - is still the prime meridian for Indian astronomers. The first observatory Ujjain Observatory is on this meridian. uddicya pascimottaraH tasyaaH sharaavatyaaH avadheH yaH pascimottaH - sa uddicya iti ucyate Taking Ujjain, the place where one ancient river flowed circuitously in Central India, named Sharavati, as the centre of the country, the ancient astronomers have decided the quarters. So, Sugreeva said about the absolute east of India but not about the east of his small kingdom.

नदीम् भागीरथीम् रम्याम् सरयूम् कौशिकीम् तथा || ४-४०-२०
कालिंदीम् यमुनाम् रम्याम् यामुनम् च महागिरिम् |
सरस्वतीम् च सिंधुम् च शोणम् मणि निभ उदकम् || ४-४०-२१
महीम् कालमहीम् चैव शैल कानन शोभिताम् |
ब्रह्ममालान् विदेहान् च मालवान् काशि कोसलान् || ४-४०-२२
मागधाम् च महाग्रामान् पुण्ड्रान् अंगाम् तथैव च |
भूमिम् च कोशकाराणाम् भूमिम् च रजत आकराम् || ४-४०-२३

"Search shall be conducted at the riversides of heartening rivers like River Bhaagiirathi, another name for River Ganga, and River Sarayu, like that at River Kaushiki, and at the pleasing surrounds of River Yamuna, and on Mt. Kalinda, as well at River Saraswathi, River Sindhu and at the river whose waters are lustrous like gems, namely River Shona, and further at River Mahi and River Kaalamahi which rivers are brightened by mountains and forests surrounding them. And the kingdoms like Brahmamaala, Videha, Maalva, Kaashi, and Kosala, and in Maagadha, which kingdom has grand villages, and in that way, also in the kingdoms of Pundra and Anga, and in the countries of the kings called Koshakaara, and in the provinces of silver mines search is to be conducted. [4-40-20b, 21, 22, 23]
The mention of these two western rivers, Saraswathi and Sindhu, at this eastern place, to where Vinata is being sent, is a disputed matter. The River Saraswathi is the river of Vedic period that once coursed but later disappeared or is coursing underground. This river is 'this creative centre of Man, River Saraswathi, was made by the deva-s...' Rig Veda, 3.33.4, and 'all life takes its origin from your [Saraswathi womb... Rig Veda, 2-4, 9-17. Presently research work is undertaken to find out this river under the banner 'Saraswathi Nadi Shodh Abhiyaan' and they are trying to find out the palaeodrainage, the buried course of this river. It is believed that this perennial river was flowing from Himalayas through Punjab, Haryana, Western Rajasthan, and through the Rann of Kutch in Gujarat, and it is said that if this could be traced an abundant source of underground water could be established.

Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 40, Shloka 21

This is the description of Eastern side. But, Saraswathi and Sindh rivers are mentioned. This perplexed readers. But, it seems that there are Sindh and Saraswathi rivers in the east as well. Sindh river in the east is a tributary of Yamuna. wiki link Similarly, Saraswathi river seems to be referring to an earlier river in Bengal. Wiki Link I think that after the Saraswathi dried up in the west, other rivers were named after the Saraswathi in Bengal or Haraxwathi in Afghanistan.

When western side is described, no Saraswathi is mentioned. But, Sindh is mentioned in the west. west is also described as desert.

Mention of Maru(Desert) in Vaalmiki Raamayana:
प्रत्यक् स्रोतो वहाः चैव नद्यः शीतजलाः शिवाः || ४-४२-८
तापसानाम् अरण्यानि कांतारा गिरयः च ये |
तत्र स्थलीः मरुप्राया अति उच्च शिखराः शिलाः || ४-४२-९
गिरि जाल आवृताम् दुर्गाम् मार्गित्वा पश्चिमाम् दिशम् |
ततः पश्चिमम् आगम्य समुद्रम् द्रष्टुम् अर्हथ || ४-४२-१०
तिमि नक्र आकुल जलम् गत्वा द्रक्ष्यथ वानराः |

"Oh, vanara-s, search at the blest rivers in the west whose cool water flows westward, as well as in the forests of sages and on the mountains of those forests, and even in lands that are virtually waterless and on the highly towering mountains that are chilly. On searching such an impassable western quarter encircled with enmeshed mountains, then it will be apt of you to come and see Western Ocean. Having come to Western Ocean, you will see seawater ruffled by sharks and crocodiles. [8b, 9, 10, 11a]
Kishkindha Kanda, Chapter [sarga] 42, Shloka 09.

तस्य तद्वचनम् श्रुत्वा सागरस्य महात्मनः || २-२२-३४
मुमोच तम् शरम् दीप्तम् परम् सागरदर्शनात् |

Hearing those words of the high-soled Ocean, Rama released that excellent and splendid arrow towards that place as directed by the ocean.

तेन तन्मरुकान्तारम् पृथिव्याम् किल विश्रुतम् || २-२२-३५
विपातितः शरो यत्र वज्राशनिसमप्रभः |

The place where the arrow, whose splendor was akin to that of a thunder and a thunder bolt, was descended by Rama- that place is indeed famous as desert of Maru* on this earth.
* Maru = Marwar in Rajastan (India)

ननाद च तदा तत्र वसुधा शल्यपीडिता || २-२२-३६
तस्माद्बाणमुखात्तोयमुत्पपात रसातलात् |

The earth there, pierced by the dart, then emitted a sound . The waters of the penultimate subterranean region gushed forth from the mouth of that cleft.

स बभूव तदा कूपो व्रण इत्येव विश्रुतः || २-२२-३७
सततम् चोत्थितम् तोयम् समुद्रस्येव दृश्यते |

Then the hollow became known as Vrana. Water constantly seen, gushing forth from it resembled seawater.

अवदारणशब्दश्च दारुणः समपद्यत || २-२२-३८
तस्मात्तद्बाणपातेन अपः कुक्षिष्वशोषयत् |

A terrific splitting sound was born in that place. Water was dried up in those cavities, as a result of hurling of that arrow by Rama.

विख्यातम् त्रिषु लोकेषु मधुकान्तारमेव च || २-२२-३९
शोषयित्वा तु तम् कुक्षिम् रामो दशरथात्मजः |
वरम् तस्मै ददौ विद्वान्मरवेऽमरविक्रमः || २-२२-४०

That desert of Maru became famous in the three worlds. Rama (the son of Dasaratha), a wise man and a valiant man resembling a celestial, made that cavity dried up and gave a boon to that desert of Maru.

पशव्यश्चाल्परोगश्च फलमूलरसायुतः |
बहुस्नेहो बहुक्षीरः सुगन्धिर्विविधौषधिः || २-२२-४१
एवमेतैर्गुणैर्युक्तो बहिभिः सम्युतो मरुः |
रामस्य वरदानाच्च शिवः पन्था बभूव ह || २-२२-४२

Due to granting of a boon by Rama, that desert of Maru became the most congenial place for cattle rearing, a place with a little of disease, producing tasty fruits and roots, with a lot of clarified butter, a lot of milk and various kinds of sweet- smelling herbs. Thus it became an auspicious and suitable move, bestowing these merits.
Yuddha Kanda, Chapter [Sarga] 22, Shloka 35

Johnneeg: The key for identifying Saraswati in Ramayana is the river Ikshumati.

अभिकालम् ततः प्राप्यते बोधिभवनाच्च्युताम् |
पितृपैतामहीम् पुण्याम् तेरुरिक्षुमतीम् नदीम् || २-६८-१७

Note the use of the word Pitrapaitamahi. This adjective has been explained by drawing a connection with the ancestors of the Ikshavakus or frequented by the ancestors of Dashratha.

Instead the adjective simply means created by God Brahma who is also known as Prapitamaha. In other sanskrit works Saraswati river is described as his first creation among rivers.

Furthermore the adjective Pitrapaitamahi cannot be related to Ikshvakus or Dashratha because it is being used in the context of messengers who were not of Ikshvaku lineage.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 26 Apr 2016 08:21

Doesn't strictly belong to this thread, but came across this very interesting speculation....http://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... n-the-sea/

The Islamization of large parts of SE Asia may have been due to China. There seems to have been power-politics between India and China for control of SE Asia for over a millennia....India was winning out due to the power of the Hindu rulers of the region and their natural affinity to India. China therefore propped up the slow Islamization of Malacca and Indonesia to counter the Indian influence !!

Interestingly, Malacca was also encouraged to convert to Islam. Although Zheng was a Muslim, this should be seen mostly as a geostrategic move to create a permanent opposition to the Hindus of Java.

Malacca prospered under Chinese protection while the Majapahit were steadily pushed back. This is the origin of the steady Islamisation of Southeast Asia. The Javanese princes who refused to convert eventually withdrew to Bali, where their culture is alive to this day.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Apr 2016 15:24

peter wrote:Mahabharata war has some connection to data in Surya Siddhanta which states that the sun was 54 degrees away from the vernal equinox when Kali-yuga began on a new moon day. This corresponds to February 17/18, 3102 at Ujjain (75deg47minE 23deg 15 min N).

I wonder if you know whether Nilesh has an explanation for this and if he would be willing to share it?

Perhaps reading the book can help. If you don't find a satisfactory explanation, do let Nilesh Oak know about it.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 26 Apr 2016 17:08

RajeshA wrote:
peter wrote:Mahabharata war has some connection to data in Surya Siddhanta which states that the sun was 54 degrees away from the vernal equinox when Kali-yuga began on a new moon day. This corresponds to February 17/18, 3102 at Ujjain (75deg47minE 23deg 15 min N).

I wonder if you know whether Nilesh has an explanation for this and if he would be willing to share it?
Perhaps reading the book can help. If you don't find a satisfactory explanation, do let Nilesh Oak know about it.

Peter ji,

Here is what I wrote, in my book, in 2011. No additional data has surfaced (either due to my own research or those of other researchers).

The Mahabharata War & KaliYuga

Numerous researchers have proposed years for the Mahabhara-ta War that fall within the time interval of 3102 B.C. +/- 500 Years. Most of these researchers, if not all, were driven by two specific ‘traditional’ beliefs,

1. KaliYuga begins with the year 3102 B.C.
2. The Mahabharata War took place either 36 or some years before the beginning of KaliYuga.

Both of these beliefs are external to the Mahabharata text how-ever the second belief does borrow the time interval of 36 years from the Mahabharata text. Krishna passed away 36 years after the Mahabharata War 81-83. Many researchers combined Mahabharata references of ‘Krishna passing away 36 years after the Mahabharata War’ with Purana references of ‘KaliYuga beginning with the ‘pass-ing away of Krishna’ to arrive at the second traditional belief. These Mahabharata researchers looked at time interval surrounding 3102 B.C. as the starting point for their search of the Mahabharata War. This starting point is reasonable and useful as long as these re-searchers also understood conjectural nature of their assumptions that led to this time interval. Some of these researchers, when their proposed year for the Mahabharata War occurred after 3102 B.C., felt the need to justify how Mahabharata War occurred during Kali-Yuga. They were equally compelled to ‘prove’ how the Mahabhara-ta text supported their justification.

My limited objective in this section is to discuss Mahabharata ob-servations that refer to ‘theory of Yugas’ and timing of the Maha-bharata War in the context of Yugas. I assert that there are no ex-plicit references within the Mahabharata text that allude to the Ma-habharata War occurring 36 years before the beginning of KaliYuga. I also assert that the Mahabharata text provides numerous observa-tions to conclude that the Mahabharata War took place during ‘Dwapara’ Yuga, whatever the definition of Dwapara might be, or during the transition period between KaliYuga and Dwapara Yuga. Let me emphasize that I am not commenting or questioning the as-sumption or assertion of 3102 B.C. as the beginning of Kali Yuga. Ra-ther what I am asserting is that the Mahabharata text contains var-ied definitions of Yuga and none of them would convincingly lead us to year 3102 B.C.

The words ‘Dwapara’ and ‘Krita’ are employed as referring to something other than Yuga as well. For example, Virata Parva re-fers to ‘Dwapara’ and ‘Krita’ in the sense of throw of dice in the game of ‘Dyuta’132. Mahabharata text also refers to ‘Yuga’ in the sense of five solar and lunar years together. Krishna refers to Yuga in the sense of outcome of an activity, i.e. creation of a Yuga by hu-man activity. Krishna tells Karna that when the Pandavas will begin the War, Karna and the Kauravas will face horrendous bloodshed, and thus perceive the time as if it is KaliYuga, as opposed to that of Treta, Krita or Dwapara Yugas131.

The impact of 3102 B.C. as the beginning of Kali Yuga and its con-nection with the Mahabharata War appears to be strong among many Mahabharata researchers, to the extent 50% of all proposed dates for the Mahabharata War fall around 3000 B.C.

Error Elimination – Experiment 68

I present theories of Yuga as described in the Mahabharata text. I have named them after the person advocating it.

Yuga theory of Hanuman 133-135

Hanuman describes (to Bhima) four Yugas in terms of the charac-teristics of each Yuga, symbolic color, and the nature of actions and morality prevailing during specific Yuga133.
Hanuman alludes to the passing away of Krita and Treta and thus the time of his conversation with Bhima is that of Dwapara Yuga134. This inference is also confirmed by Hanuman’s comment that soon the KaliYuga would begin and this means at the time of conversa-tion, Dwapara was still in vogue135.

Yuga theory of Sage Markandeya136

Sage Markandeya describes the four Yugas as referring to ‘a long period of time’. He assigns specific years for each Yuga. Many re-searchers have translated these years as referring to Divya (divine) years. While I consider this as a possibility, I have translated them as ordinary years since I did not find the word ‘Divya’ mentioned any-where. Markandeya defines Krita, Treta, Dwapara and Kali as made up of 4000, 3000, 2000 and 1000 years (or Divya years), respectively. He defines the transition periods, ‘Sandhya or ‘Sandhyamshash’, of 400 years each for Krita. The transition periods are of 300, 200 and 100 years long for Treta, Dwapara and Kali Yugas, respectively. Markandeya explains that this time interval of 12000 years (4800 + 3600 + 2400 + 1200) makes one ChaturYuga and that a day of Brahma consists of 1000 ChaturYugas. Markandeya also explains characteris-tics of each Yuga.

Yuga theory of Sanjay137

Sanjay describes his version of Yuga theory to Dhritarashtra. He describes four Yugas in terms of the life span of human beings. It is not clear how he defines ‘life span’, i.e. whether in terms of quality, piety or purely in terms of number of years lived. He states that ‘life span’ is equivalent to 4000 years in Krita and 3000 in Treta. Sanjay does not specify ‘life span’ for KaliYuga, however mentions that in-fant mortality is a common occurrence137. Sanjay states that the land of Himavat surpasses BharatVarsha in virtues, and HariVarsha as superior, even to Himavat139.
Sanjay states that during the present time of Dwapara Yuga, i.e. at the time of conversation between him and Dhritarashtra, people live for 2000 years138. He goes on to explain the characteristics of human beings in each Yuga and reiterates the time of his conversa-tion with Dhritarashtra as that of Dwapara Yuga139.

Yuga theory of Bhishma140

Bhishma defines the theory of ChaturYuga in terms of qualities, actions and characteristics of the ruling King. Bhishma describes the actions, of the king, responsible for bringing ‘Krita’, “Treta’, ‘Dwapa-ra’ or ‘Kali’ Yuga and describes rewards king receives depending on the Yuga King creates with his actions, and states that the King is wholly responsible for the precipitation of a specific Yuga.

Yuga theory of Vyasa

(As told to Shuka, quoted by Bhishma) 141

The theory of Vyasa, as recalled by Bhishma, is a combination of above theories, has similarities with that of Markendaya, while with few twists of its own. Bhishma describes a day of Gods as equiva-lent to one year of human beings. Bhishma does not explicitly state if the years mentioned are ‘Divya’, i.e. ‘years of gods’ or years of human beings. Markandeya describes 1000 ChaturYugas equal to one day of Brahma, without specifying the definition of the day, i.e. day constituting ‘Aha’ + ‘Ratra’ or only ‘Aha’. Vyasa also refers to 1000 ChaturYugas being equal to one day of Brahma, however spec-ifies the day in the sense of ‘Aha’. Vyasa holds that all creation re-mains in the state of ‘Yoganidra’ during the night of Brahma. While Sanjay describes ‘life span’ of human beings as 4000, 3000, 2000 years and unspecified time interval for Krita, Treta, Dwapara and Kali respectively, Vyasa describes these ‘life spans’ as 400, 300, 200 and 100 years, respectively for these Yugas. Vyasa also describes the characteristics of each Yuga, which are similar to those described by others.

This concludes summary of five theories of Yuga proposed by Hanuman, Markendaya, Sanjay, Bhishma and Vyasa from the Maha-bharata text. Internal evidence of Mahabharata does not produce a consistent view for the concept of Yuga. Mahabharata text explains ‘Yuga’ in various ways including, as a period of 5 years, a long period of time, throws of dice or an outcome of King’s performance and activities.

Error Elimination – Experiment 69

The Mahabharata War happened in Dwapara Yuga

Hanuman134, 135 and Sanjay138, 139 explicitly refer to ‘Dwapara’ Yu-ga as the time of their conversation. Adi Parva states that the Ma-habharata War took place during the transition period of Dwapara and Kali Yuga142. Duryodhana refers to Dwapara (Nadhwam) as the time of his conversation143. Krishna, in order to pacify angry Balara-ma on the last day of War, asks Balarama to consider (pre-tend/assume) the time as if it was KaliYuga and thus forgive Bhi-ma144. This means that even when the War was over, the KaliYuga had not begun.

I want to re-emphasize that I am not objecting to 3102 B.C. as the beginning of Kali Yuga. When exactly KaliYuga began is a separate subject and worthy of investigation, however, I consider it outside the scope of this book. All I want to emphasize is that the Mahabha-rata text emphasizes in no uncertain terms that the time of Maha-bharata War was that of Dwapara Yuga or the transition period be-tween Kali and Dwapara Yugas. Mahabharata references and my proposed timeline neither contradict nor support year of 3102 B.C. as the beginning of KaliYuga.

Researchers who made a big deal about the traditional date for the beginning of KaliYuga were right in their conjecture to begin with 3102 B.C. but were wrong in justifying their conjecture.

--
Hope this helps,

Nilesh

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Apr 2016 23:41

Arjun - don't agree with the China/islam hypothesis. what is more likely is that the chinese stopped being present in the seas due to their inward focus post overthrow of the mongol dynasty (ming period)
the seas were left uncontested for arab merchants and then europeans to spread out across - and with them ROP and ROL

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Apr 2016 00:07

Interesting article on IVC decoding. Seems to state different symbols for Ka, kam, kar; kar and har seem quite diff; and pra and pri have no relation. A whole symbol for devendr. Either it is completely pictorial or can be broken down further into actual symbols?? or, the author is assuming too much.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Apr 2016 11:35

Lalmohan wrote:Arjun - don't agree with the China/islam hypothesis. what is more likely is that the chinese stopped being present in the seas due to their inward focus post overthrow of the mongol dynasty (ming period)
the seas were left uncontested for arab merchants and then europeans to spread out across - and with them ROP and ROL

The Chinese never had an outward focus before or after the Ming period voyages (under Zhang He)....but there is enough evidence that Zhang He's expeditions had a major role in spreading Islam in SE Asia:

http://kyotoreview.org/issue-10/on-the- ... east-asia/

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... heast_Asia

To put things in a nutshell, Islam in SE Asia is due to the efforts of (a) Arab merchants / preachers (b) Gujarati Muslim merchants / preachers and (c) Zhang He expedition. Of these three, the last two are likely the more important causes.

The important question is - was Zhang He and his expedition acting on their own beliefs without active encouragement from the Chinese Ming dynasty or was this proselytism tacitly backed by the dynasty.

There is no doubt that the end-result of SE Asia turning away from Hinduism to Buddhism in the mainland and to Abrahamic religions in maritime SE Asia ultimately greatly helped Chinese establish themselves as de-facto masters in that land.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 27 Apr 2016 16:24

The Kardamaka Mahakshatrap Chashtan is very well known.

His coins are found in Kshatrap coin hoards.

Legend in two scripts on reverse :
Brahmi legend in Prakrit Rajno Mahakshatrapa Ghsamotikaputrasa Chashtanasa

Kharoshthi legend : Rano Kshatrapasa Chathanasa

Refer A M Fishman: 4.10, 4.14, 4.15, 4.15R Silver Drachm of 2-2.4 gram weight

There are reports of his inscription found in Saurashtra/kutch region.

Only the timeline accepted is much later in CE and not in BCE

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 28 Apr 2016 22:04

Shiv,

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/vaop/n ... .3559.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Apr 2016 04:14

Sorry if I am asking those already posted. Are there any genetic proofs that proves AIT wrong or right?

The genetic scientist here proves irrefutably Aryans invaded India around 3K Before Christ

manasataramgini ‏@blog_supplement 19h19 hours ago
New Y-chromosome sequence large dataset paper: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/vaop/n ... .3559.html …
Data here gives good bounds for the Aryan invasion of India: no earlier than 4-4.5 KYR BP. So as we have been saying, earliest during mature IVC or late IVC is when AI most likely happened.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Apr 2016 05:04

Muppalla wrote:Sorry if I am asking those already posted. Are there any genetic proofs that proves AIT wrong or right?

The genetic scientist here proves irrefutably Aryans invaded India around 3K Before Christ

manasataramgini ‏@blog_supplement 19h19 hours ago
New Y-chromosome sequence large dataset paper: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/vaop/n ... .3559.html …
Data here gives good bounds for the Aryan invasion of India: no earlier than 4-4.5 KYR BP. So as we have been saying, earliest during mature IVC or late IVC is when AI most likely happened.

Mupalla these questions have come up a dozen times here and have been answered. Including what this guy says. But rather than simply asking on here why don;t you answer a few questions for yourself

1. Who are "Aryans"?
2. On what basis do you call anyone who came into India 70,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, 5000 years ago or 2000 years ago "Aryans". Were all of them Aryans? If not which one was the real Aryan? And why?

As long as people claim that any human who came from northwest to India at any time in the past was Aryan - it means that Aryan invasion is 100% true. Why fight it. But if Aryan has a specific meaning - please come up with that using Google if need be.

Even this manasataramgini guy has been fudging and changing dates every time a new genetics paper takes the date of migration into India further back. Only constant thing is his belief in Aryan invasion. Need to ask yourself What is Aryan? Why were the first humans in India not Aryans?

If you can clear your own mind of these then it would be easier to answer your question. Every time someone asks these question are answered and someone else comes up and asks the same same questions.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Apr 2016 05:54

Also if someone came in 3500 saal pehle, then how does one know that his ancestors did not go out of India 15,000 years before that? Maybe they got sick and tired of the Oiropeans swinging from the trees by their tails in the Black Forest, and decided to come back to North India and write their memoirs, viz, the Vedas and Epics.

So perhaps a better examination of the data will find irrefutable evidence of the APT (Aryan Purge Theory) circa 18527 BCE. The Aryans leaving North India by way of the Khyber and Bolan Passes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Apr 2016 05:55

I have no idea whether BRFites are clear or unclear in their minds about what "Aryan" is supposed to be. "Aryan" is supposed to be a group of people whom Western linguists and historians claimed as people who came to India from the west carrying with them a language that later became Sanskrit and later that Sanskrit language recorded the memory of an Aryan people.

Let us assume that this story is true and ask when this happened:

If you ignore the constant boring and drilling by manasataramgini, current western historians, linguists and archaeologists claim that the RiG veda was composed about 3000-3500 years ago (1500 BC). That means Aryans came to India after Harappan civilization and many centuries after the Saraswati river dried up. However linguists, archaeologists etc have questioned the existence of a Saraswati in India and they have also claimed that the Harappans were the Dravidians that the Aryans defeated.

But all this argument is only important for Indians like us who have got our own langotis in a tight twist because we automatically do salaam yes sir to all information from the West. The point we tend to forget is that the the Aryan invasion theory is useful only to say that the mother language of Sanskrit developed somewhere near Europe and conquering people using horses and chariots invaded Syria, Iran and India - finally stopping at India where Rig veda wrote the history of those conquerors.

Please try and understand and remember the sequence:
1. First horses were domesticated somewhere in or near Europe
2. Later by 2000 BC (4000 years ago) Chariots with spoked wheels were invented.
3. Still later (1800 BC) there is evidence of horse training and Rig Vedic Gods in Syria (Mitanni texts and kikuli texts)
4. Therefore Rig Veda has to be AFTER 1800 BC. So linguists and western archaeologists gave Rig veda a date of about 1500 BC. They said Harappa had no horses and chariots and conquering Aryans brought them to India in 1500 BC.

Now please go back a couple of posts and look at Manasataramginis claim.He is now saying the Aryan invasion took place in 2500 to 2000 BC. If that is true that means Rig Veda and Sanskrit dates from that 2500 to 2000 BC. That means that Mitanni texts with Rig veda gods (dated to 1800 BC) came after Rig veda in India, and not before as claimed by linguists, archaeologists etc. It also means that chariots and horses mentioned in Rig Veda may have been in India before 2000 BC when the first Chariots are supposed to have been invented.

This basically screws up all definitions of "Aryan" and compeletly kils the carefully cooked up sequence of events backed by archaeological finds (Chariots in graves 2000 BC, and Mitanni texts 1800 BC)

So who are these Aryans? If they are the "Arya" of the Rig Veda - then their dates are older than the dates that linguists have stated for Europe. If Indian dates are older and western dates are more recent, which way did any invasion or migration go?

Please take time out to familiarize yourself with dates and evidence offered rather than weeping over "new proof" of Aryan invasion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Apr 2016 05:58

UlanBatori wrote:Also if someone came in 3500 saal pehle, then how does one know that his ancestors did not go out of India 15,000 years before that? Maybe they got sick and tired of the Oiropeans swinging from the trees by their tails in the Black Forest, and decided to come back to North India and write their memoirs, viz, the Vedas and Epics.

So perhaps a better examination of the data will find irrefutable evidence of the APT (Aryan Purge Theory) circa 18527 BCE. The Aryans leaving North India by way of the Khyber and Bolan Passes.

There is in fact clear genetic proof of Indian migrating out of India after 12000 BC. But our minds are too dhimmified by colonization

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Apr 2016 06:00

If I look at a Google Earth 3D map, what jumps out at me is the bowl-shape of Afghanistan. Absolutely distinct signature of a HUGE asteroid impact or a BegaTon Nuclear Fusion bum explosion. Maybe a Matter-AntiMatter collision.
When did this occur? Before that, I assume that the mountain ranges around Afghanistan were just plains.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Apr 2016 07:23

Archaeological evidence actually quite convincingly demolishes AIT. B.B. Lal has done phenomenal work in IVC and mind you he started out as an AIT-believer. But he was a good scientist and went where the data led. The data led him to conclude that there is ZERO archaeological evidence of any break in the IVC culture between the Neolithic, Early Harappan, Mature Harappan, Late Harappan & the Gangetic Civilizations. In fact, there is amazing cultural/religious/material continuity from Neolithic times (possibly even Paleolithic times) till today! If there was an Aryan invasion, it would have left some material record (or) discontinuity in material/skeletal structure. None were found. It was his archaeological finding, alongwith paleo-anthropology (human skeletal structure analysis) & recently genetics that pretty much annihilated AIT. So much so, that the pamphleteers (AIT-wallahs who claim to be "researchers") abandoned it and moved onto AMT with "untraceable quantities of immigration". Well, if its untraceable, then why need it? It reminds one of the "aether" hypothesis and the Michelson-Morley experiment to detect it. When no evidence was found, physicists like Einstein did the right thing and abandoned it altogether. But hey, we are linguists. Science doesn't apply to us.

Examples of cultural continuity: Yogic pose, Sindoor on women's forehead, Bangle wearing women, some metallurgical techniques still followed in Gujarat, sacredness of the Pipal tree etc etc.

I'd encourage everyone to watch this amazing series of videos by Michel Danino in Amrita Univ. He clinically & unemotionally takes apart AIT/AMT

[youtube]RT4pUJMDV2Y&list=PLP06WrEItKXlH4aopocitS0KRKNFfL9uE[/youtube]

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Apr 2016 10:18

A question I can find an answer to online. When was the word "Arya" or "Aryan" (in that form) first used in Europe? First definitive written evidence.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Apr 2016 10:35

Read work of :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Szemer%C3%A9nyi

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Apr 2016 19:41

2 articles, which will be of interest to readers here about the falsehoods in the sheet-anchor theory:

1) This coin was found in 2013, supposedly proving existence of Vikramaditya. I wonder why no research/paper was done on it!
http://www.hindustantimes.com/bhopal/vikramaditya-steps-out-of-fables-into-history/story-myf7AvIkAVrySbYfSVuV2I.html

2) A series of articles on IndiaFacts: was it really Ashoka who went to war against Kalinga?
http://indiafacts.org/kumaragupta-i-not ... ck-edicts/

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 29 Apr 2016 19:55

Prem Kumar wrote:2 articles, which will be of interest to readers here about the falsehoods in the sheet-anchor theory:

1) This coin was found in 2013, supposedly proving existence of Vikramaditya. I wonder why no research/paper was done on it!
http://www.hindustantimes.com/bhopal/vikramaditya-steps-out-of-fables-into-history/story-myf7AvIkAVrySbYfSVuV2I.html

2) A series of articles on IndiaFacts: was it really Ashoka who went to war against Kalinga?
http://indiafacts.org/kumaragupta-i-not ... ck-edicts/

That Vikrama coin is very interesting. But, how do they determine the date?

About Ashoka pillars: I always felt that they cannot belong to Mauryans because the Mauryan dynasty is tooo old. And nothing from Mauryan period survives today. On the other hand, we have several Guptha period relics. So, I think those Ashoka pillars also belong to Gupthas. The western historians connected those pillars to Mauryans because they give a date of 325 BCE to Mauryan based on Sheet anchor theory which is just wild speculation(if not outright wrong). According to Puraanas, Mauryans were much older dynasty around 1900 - 1700 BCE.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Apr 2016 20:10

shiv wrote:If you can clear your own mind of these then it would be easier to answer your question. Every time someone asks these question are answered and someone else comes up and asks the same same questions.

Thank you.

I am late entrant with risen BP and trying to get acquainted fast and get into wars. I have no confusion with AIT as bs. But a gawaad in presentation skills get hammered and hence trying to get my presentation skill on this topic improved with material to prepare for battles and wars.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Apr 2016 20:40

Muppalla: Textbook jollies again?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 29 Apr 2016 21:32

peter wrote:
Johnneeg: The key for identifying Saraswati in Ramayana is the river Ikshumati.

अभिकालम् ततः प्राप्यते बोधिभवनाच्च्युताम् |
पितृपैतामहीम् पुण्याम् तेरुरिक्षुमतीम् नदीम् || २-६८-१७

Note the use of the word Pitrapaitamahi. This adjective has been explained by drawing a connection with the ancestors of the Ikshavakus or frequented by the ancestors of Dashratha.

Instead the adjective simply means created by God Brahma who is also known as Prapitamaha. In other sanskrit works Saraswati river is described as his first creation among rivers.

Furthermore the adjective Pitrapaitamahi cannot be related to Ikshvakus or Dashratha because it is being used in the context of messengers who were not of Ikshvaku lineage.

Your interpretation of 'Pithrupaithamaheem' is wrong. Brahma is called Pithamaha. On the other hand, Pithru-paithamahim means related to father(pithru) & grandfathers(pithamaha). That simply means 'ancestral'. So, your connection of Ikshumathi river to Saraswathi is wrong.

But, this Ikshumathi river seems pretty strange. Because it is not mentioned much in the epics. There is only one another mention of this river in Raamayana which is as follows:

भ्राता मम महातेजा यवीयान् अतिधार्मिकः |
कुशध्वज इति ख्यातः पुरीम् अध्यवसत् शुभाम् || १-७०-२
वार्या फलक पर्यन्ताम् पिबन् इक्षुमतीम् नदीम् |
सांकाश्याम् पुण्य संकाशाम् विमानम् इव पुष्पकम् || १-७०-३

"My younger brother renowned thus as Kushadhvaja, a highly self-righteous one and a highly brilliant one is ruling from the auspicious and holy city named Saankaasya, which city is surrounded by River Ikshumati as a natural moat, in which moat bastions of tridents are staked all around... and my brother presides over that city as if he is sitting in the Pushpaka aircraft of richly-rich god Kubera, and as though supping the sugarcane juice-like waters of River Ikshumati... [1-70-2, 3]
The words vaaryaa phalaka paryantaam also mean 'that city is surrounded by the plantation of citrus grapefruits that are famous for health keeping.

Bala Kaanda, Sarga 70, Shloka 3.

Here, Janaka is talking about his brother's kingdom which is in the neighbourhood and it seems to have Ikshumathi river flowing near it. Janaka ruled Vidheha(Bihar-Nepal region). Janaka's brother's kingdom(which would be smaller) would be around the same area in north-east region around Bihar & Nepal. So, according to this description Ikshumathi river is some river in the Bihar-Nepal region.

Lets look at MB:
Surprisingly, MB has one and only one mention of Ikshumathi river. Almost, every other river is mentioned many more times.

And Utanka having said this departed with the ear-rings.
"On the road Utanka perceived coming towards him a naked idle beggar sometimes coming in view and sometimes disappearing. And Utanka put the ear-rings on the ground and went for water. In the meantime the beggar came quickly to the spot and taking up the ear-rings ran away. And Utanka having completed his ablutions in water and purified himself and having also reverently bowed down to the Gods and his spiritual masters pursued the thief with the utmost speed. And having with great difficulty overtaken him, he seized him by force. But at that instant the person seized, quitting the form of a beggar and assuming his real form, viz., that of Takshaka, quickly entered a large hole open in the ground. And having got in, Takshaka proceeded to his own abode, the region of the serpents.
"Now, Utanka, recollecting the words of the Queen, pursued the Serpent, and began to dig open the hole with a stick but was unable to make much progress. And Indhra beholding his distress sent his thunder-bolt (Vajra) to his assistance. Then the thunder-bolt entering that stick enlarged that hole. And Utanka began to enter the hole after the thunder-bolt. And having entered it, he saw the region of the serpents infinite in extent, filled with hundreds of palaces and elegant mansions with turrets and domes and gate-ways, abounding with wonderful places for various games and entertainments. And Utanka then glorified the serpents by the following shlokas:
"You Serpents, subjects of King Airavata, splendid in battle and showering weapons in the field like lightning-charged clouds driven by the winds! Handsome and of various forms and decked with many coloured ear-rings, you children of Airavata, you shine like the Sun in the firmament! On the northern banks of the Ganga are many habitations of serpents. There I constantly adore the great serpents. Who except Airavata would desire to move in the burning rays of the Sun? When Dhrutha-rashtra (Airavata's brother) goes out, twenty-eight thousand and eight serpents follow him as his attendants. You who move near him and you who stay at a distance from him, I adore all of you that have Airavata for your elder brother.
"I adore you also, to obtain the ear-rings, O Takshaka, who formerly dwelt in Kurukshethra and the Khaandava forest! Takshaka and Aswasena, you are constant companions who dwell in Kurukshethra on the banks of the Ikshumati! I also adore the illustrious Shruthasena, the younger brother of Takshaka, who resided at the holy place called Mahadyumna with a view to obtaining the chiefship of the serpents.

SECTION 003, AADHI PARVA, MB.

Here, Ikshumathi river is mentioned as flowing near Khaandava and Kurukshethra. Kurukshethra refers to a very large area in those times. Khaandava forest was also a large area spreading from UP to MP. But, certainly, Saraswathi river can't be Ikshumathi. Because Saraswathi river didn't flow near Khaandava.

Also, the very few mentions of this Ikshumathi river means that it was some kind of small and insignificant river in the UP-Bihar-Nepal region.

Just taking some obscure river and trying connect it to Saraswathi is not correct. So, that point about Ikshumathi river being same as Saraswathi is just wrong. Also, you compared Nile to Saraswathi in one of your posts. That comparison is wrong. Nile is famous for flowing through the desert. Saraswathi did not flow through deserts. On the contrary, Saraswathi river bank had forests(they were called Chithraratha forests).

Now that, that point is clear.

Lets generally investigate further about Ikshumathi and also this particular passage in Ramayana which you quoted:

अभिकालम् ततः प्राप्यते बोधिभवनाच्च्युताम् |
पितृपैतामहीम् पुण्याम् तेरुरिक्षुमतीम् नदीम् || २-६८-१७

its a pretty strange passage actually. It contains many anomalies.

Firstly, these messengers are being sent from Ayodhya to capital of Kekeya. Kekeya is somewhere in north-west India(perhaps, Pakthunkwa region). But, here, the city Rajagriha is mentioned. Rajagriha is a famous city(even capital) of Magadha i.e. Bihar.

Secondly, the places mentioned in the region near Ikshumathi river are: Bodhi-Bhavana. Bodhi tree exists in Gaya, Bihar. Also, the mention of Bodhi-Bhavana is pretty interesting. It is also interesting to note that some of the names of these messengers also seem to have Buddhist tilt. The names of the messengers are: Siddhartha, Jayanta, Vijaya, Ashoka and Nandana. The name Siddhartha is especial closely connected to Buddhism. Ashoka is also mentioned.

Thirdly, later, Vishnupada is mentioned as being situated on Vipasha river. There is no Vishnupada on Vipasha river. There is only one famous Vishnupada in Gaya, Bihar.

So, all these references seem to be related to Bihar in some way. I think this was some kind of later interpolation under the aegis of some Magadha ruler. Perhaps, it could be during the time of Mauryas. Ikshumathi seems to be some small river(some tributary of Yamuna or Ganga) in UP-Bihar-Nepal region.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 29 Apr 2016 22:15

Nilesh Oak wrote:
All children, disciples (especially if they did not stick to another lineage, as their name) and descendants of these are Vasisthas too.

We have 'deified' Vasistha (in the form of Star Mizar) at the time of Ramayana itself. There is Vasistha in Ramayana (12209 BCE) and there is Vasistha in Mahabharata (5561 BCE).

There is Valmiki in Mahabharata, too (5561 BCE), of course descendant of Ramayana Valmiki.

Not just Vashishta, but many other sages are mentioned commonly in most of the Hindu and Buddhist works.Most of the characters like Vasishta(Koshala), Vishwamithra(of Magadha), Dhaumya(Koshala), Upamanyu, Uddalaka Aruni(of Paanchala), Swethasvathara, Katyayana, Maitreya(of Kashi), Jaimini, Yagnyavalkya Vajasenaya(of Vidheha), Satyakama Jabala(of Shibhi), Ashvalayana(of Koshala), Garga(of Saurashtra), Sukesha Bharadhwaja, Bhargava(of Vidharbha), Jamadhagni, Apasthmba, Asitha, Dhevala, Dhalbhya, Shunaka, Agasthya(from South), Baudhayana, Gauthama(Nyaya), Shukra, Bruhaspathi...etc are mentioned in various scriptures.

They are used as characters in Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Puraanas, Upanishadhs & Vedhas. Most of these figures are related to each other. Either they are contemporaries. Or sons or grandsons. Or disciples...etc. In short, this whole set of people lived in, not more than 100-200 yrs timeframe. Some of the older Vedhic rushis like Vashishta & Vishwamithra may be slightly older that that.

Now, the traditional or conservative interpreters try to justify the long timeline by giving huge lifetimes to these figures. But, that doesn't work because not only do these works commonly mention sages, but they also mention many common kings in various Hindu & Buddhist scriptures.

Kings of Upanishadh period:
Janaka Vidheha
Ashvapathi Kaikeya
Pravahana Jaivali - Paanchala
Ajathashatru - Kaashi

Ajathashathru is mentioned in Buddhist works as a contemporary of Buddha. Puraanas say that Ajathashathru was King of Magadha. Upanishadhs call Ajathashathru as King of Kashi while they remain silent on Maghadha kingship. So, one would have to conclude that Ajathashathru conquered Kaashi while he was ruling Maghadha. Buddhist and Jain works tell about Ajathashathru conquering Licchavis of Vaishali. Mention of Ajathashathru proves the point that Upanishadhs were contemporary of Buddha.

Next,
Ashvapathi of Kekeya is mentioned as the uncle of Bharatha in Baala Kaanda of Ramayana. Janaka of Vidheha is mentioned as the father-in-law of Raama in Baala Kaanda of Ramayana.

Now, the traditionalists try to argue that sages can live for long periods. But, how will they explain the common Kings? Will the kings also have huge lifespans spreading over hundreds of years?

The next argument is to say that this is not the same person but a different person:
If one argues that the reference is to different people, then every time a name is mentioned, one can assume that its new person. That would lead to absurdity. If its a different person, then his differentiating quality would be mentioned in the scripture. If nothing is mentioned, then we have to assume that the reference is to the original guy.

Since, Baala Kaanda of Raamayana contains a lot of references to Vedhic rushis like Vashishta and Vishwamithra, I think Baala Kaanda is not part of the original Raamayana. Rather, Baala Kaanda and Uttara Kaanda are a later prequel and sequel to Raamayana.

----
If you carefully trace the lineages and genealogies mentioned in various scriptures, then you will reach the only conclusion that most of them are related to each other and belong to a very small time-period(about 100-200 yrs).