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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 19:19

A_Gupta wrote:^^^Great material! I hope the people on this thread with history degrees note carefully how history is often constructed by ignoring the evidence that goes against the narrative one wants to have. In particular, a lot of Indologists and the societies they were embedded in were enamored of the idea of a joyously conquering civilization-bearing white race, and thus built their histories thusly. But if one looks closely, even within the body of their works, some dissent can be found.

Like I have been saying repeatedly - the assumptions were initially racist irredentist ones. The racism was simply whitewashed and edited out but the assumptions were retained.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 19:36

In fact - in just the last 4-5 pages of this discussion we have had 2 findings supported by non Indian, non Hindu, non right wing, non revisionist, non religious, ostensibly secular western authors supporting "Out of India"
1. Mitanni
2. Zoroastrianism

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 15 Sep 2017 20:07

Speaking of horses, this is about their global origin in India

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles ... -india.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 081752.htm

The original study is from Johns Hopkins, suitably chi chi

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 15 Sep 2017 20:44

Upper limit (generous) of 150K BCE (astronomy) and upper limit of 50K BCE (geology, geophysics, hydrology) why Ramayana can not be Million years old (but perfectly permissible for spiritual or dogmatic/sarcastic reasons) .

from 12:00 min until 15:00 min the clip below

https://youtu.be/ift61nYA_8Y

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 15 Sep 2017 20:49

shiv wrote:The Saraswati, and rigorous archaeological, paleo-geological and paleo-botanical studies indicating that the Saraswati was a massive river exactly where the texts say it was is the biggest AIT killer.


Absolutely.

In fact it brought out the most desperate attempts at bluffing by the AIT status-quoists as well as ad hominem references to opponents as revisionists and right-wing Hindus. If you use parts of texts to prove a particular point (like Dasyus and Purs) you cannot then simply discard the Saraswati as imagination. Multiple streams of evidence put the Vedas earlier than 2000 BC . My current hypothesis puts the Vedas around 9-7000 BC


Geology, hydrology, geophysics [Marie courty (1982) Henri Francfort (1985) Peter Clift (2012) and many who corroborate this further] lead to no grand Sarasvati anytime after 10,000 BCE.

[Note: Courty, Francfort, Clift falls into the category of non Indian, non Hindu, non right wing, non revisionist, non religious, ostensibly secular western authors]

Astronomy/Ramayana evidence.. no grand sarasvati anytime after 12,000 BCE

That puts Rigveda from unknown time in antiquity (my hypothesis - upper limit of 50K BCE) to its final compilation (as we have it today) done in 6th millennium BCE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 21:18

Nilesh Oak wrote:
That puts Rigveda from unknown time in antiquity (my hypothesis - upper limit of 50K BCE) to its final compilation (as we have it today) done in 6th millennium BCE

I can agree with such a hypothesis - but I like to break bad news to the usual suspects in small doses that does not overwhelm them..just sayin

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 15 Sep 2017 21:38

shiv wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
And that leads to this pesky little problem of presence of horses in IVC. WIth the exception of Surkotada, horse bones only start to appear in the "secured layers" late IVC around 1700 BC or so.
Surkotada itself is controversial, since the bones found here could be those of wild asses of Ran of Kutch.


Wrong about the horse in India
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%204.pdf



Allow me the leeway to be skeptical on this issue, I have read enough material on this to form my opinion.

Here is an excerpt from an essay by Paul Rissman from the "Early Animal Domestication And Its Cultural Context" book.
Finally. it has been asserted that the domestic horse
was a Harappan import into India, but further scrutiny has
never borne out this hypothesis. Horses are reported from
the Harappan site of Surktotada (Shanna 1974). as well as
from Mohenjodaro (Sewell and Guha 1931) and Harappa
itself (Nath 1962). Third millennium horse remains also
have been identified at the Central Indian site of Kayatha
(Alur 1975) and at the South Indian site of Kodekal (Shah
1973); however. Clason re-examined these remains and
did not corroborate the presence of horse bones (Clason
1977). Similarly. Meadow has emphasized the difficulty of
distinguishing Equus caballus from E. asinus and E. hemi-
anus. and underscored the importance of proper illustra-
tions and measurements which are lacking in the above
faunal reports (Meadow 1986). Until more reliable evi-
dence is presented. the earliest remains of horse in South
Asia should be those identified from the second millen-
nium sites of Pirak in Pakistan (Meadow 1986) and Navda-
toli. Nevasa, and Inamgaon in Western India (Clason 1977).

books.goole.com Link

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 15 Sep 2017 21:43

JE Menon wrote:Speaking of horses, this is about their global origin in India

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles ... -india.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 081752.htm

The original study is from Johns Hopkins, suitably chi chi


Indeed there were "indigenous" Indian horses "Equus sivalensis" as late as 10,000 YBP when they went extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equus_sivalensis
Equus sivalensis is an extinct equid, discovered in the Siwalik hills. Remains date to 2.6 million years ago, and it is assumed that it was extinct during the last Ice Age, between 75,000 and 10,000 years ago, as part of the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinction. Remains have been found in middle to late Pleistocene locations in the Siwaliks and in Tamil Nadu, and recently, as a "Great Indian horse" in Andhra, dated to ca. 75,000 BP.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 23:39

Dipanker wrote:
shiv wrote:
Wrong about the horse in India
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%204.pdf



Allow me the leeway to be skeptical on this issue, I have read enough material on this to form my opinion.

books.goole.com Link


There are obviously two sides to this debate - and one side wants to say that horses were not there in Harappa but are unable to produce a strong enough argument to prove that. It is now reduced to quibbling over ancient tarsal bones and teeth.

None of this makes an Aryan invasion theory become any closer to reality for several reasons

1) Horse figurines from Harappa indicating that the horse was certainly not unknown
2) Rib count of a horse (in the Rig Veda) indicating an Arabian horse rather than one from the steppe which is a factor that is completely ignored in the horse story we are fed with.
3) Connections to Arabia as a source of horses being corroborated by the presence of only Arabian one hump camel bones in archaeological finds rather than two hump Bactrian camels as would be expected if the connection to Bactria and BMAC were as large as is being alleged
4) Well documented mistranslation of Veda to suggest horse eating and horse burying - both of which do not find mention in the Vedas, but are used to draw a link with Sintashta horse burials . Add to that lack of any burial chambers with or without horses anywhere in the IVC area. There is no description of how to build a burial chamber in the Vedas.
5. Translations of Vedas into English by Indian Veda scholars translate the word used for "horse" to indicate concepts other than "horse the animal"

Horses were known both in the civilization and to the people who composed the Vedas. Horses simply did not play as large a role in Indian life as cattle did and certainly not in numbers as the bone records indicate. The Vedas are not a horse culture as alleged. The words for horse along with a lot of other words are used metaphorically to express concepts that do not mean the animal itself. The bone record and archaeological record do not indicate that horses were absent or unknown.The bone records also do not show a great jump in the proportion of horse bones after 1500 BC as would be expected if horses were introduced and then became the preferred mode of transport and war. The horse bone proportions in India continue to be low after 1500 BC.

At best the horse argument is a strawman that fails to account for the elephant in the room - the Saraswati river with remains situated exactly where ancient records indicate it to be with Himalayas in the north, Vindhyas to the south, Prayag to the East. The river is proven to have been a rain fed, high flow river up to about 10,000 BC and then became smaller and slower and eventually started drying up in the desert by about 5000 BC. Scholarly paper links will be provided if you want.

All in all the horse argument has been beaten to death and ever since I started looking at it - I found only inconsistencies, obfuscation and outright bluffs in the AIT horse story with the evidence of lack of horses being weak and unconvincing. And as new studies about the Saraswati come up the horse argument only becomes obsolete and outdated. But I must put this on record since you brought it up. Your prerogative to believe what you want is of course entirely yours as mine is too.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 23:43

Dipanker wrote:
shiv wrote:
Wrong about the horse in India
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%204.pdf


Here is an excerpt from an essay by Paul Rissman from the "Early Animal Domestication And Its Cultural Context" book.
Finally. it has been asserted that the domestic horse
was a Harappan import into India, but further scrutiny has
never borne out this hypothesis..

books.goole.com Link

Did you actually understand the meaning of this sentence? The author is delivering a kick in the balls to the "Aryans brought horses to India" theory in the very first sentence of your quote. Read again. Carefully

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 16 Sep 2017 00:05

As per my High School level understanding, the European view on History seems to be that any Civilzation anywhere in the world could have started only after the end of last ice age ie 10,000 years ago. At that time a portion of Europe was also habitable.

But if Civilzation in India started at Ice Age Maximus (not at end) then that would be around 20,000 years ago when practically no part of so called Anatolia was habitable.

Now if we lower Sea level by 500m (rather than 500 feet) then it seems one could walk from Horn of Africa to coast of Gujarat. Indian Coast would be almost 100-200km ahead of where it is today. And India would be practically the only place in the world where agriculture could have produced adequate surplus so that a modern large Civilization could have developed. OIT?

By the way one would be able to row from West Africa to South America in small boats as some peaks of Mid Atlantic Mountain Range might be islands. Voila one more concumdrum solved.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 16 Sep 2017 07:14

nadInAM parvatAnA.n cha nAmadheyAni sa~njaya .
tathA janapadAnA.n cha ye chAnye bhUmimAshritAH .. 1..\\
pramANa.n cha pramANaGYa pR^ithivyA api sarvashaH .
nikhilena samAchakShva kAnanAni cha sa~njaya .. 2..\\
pa~nchemAni mahArAja mahAbhUtAni sa~NgrahAt .
jagatsthitAni sarvANi samAnyAhurmanIShiNaH .. 3..\\
bhUmirApastathA vAyuragnirAkAshameva cha .
guNottarANi sarvANi teShAM bhUmiH pradhAnataH .. 4..\\
shabdaH sparshashcha rUpa.n cha raso gandhashcha pa~nchamaH .
bhUmerete guNAH proktA R^iShibhistattvavedibhiH .. 5..\\
chatvAro.apsu guNA rAjangandhastatra na vidyate .
shabdaH sparshashcha rUpa.n cha tejaso.atha guNAstrayaH .
shabdaH sparshashcha vAyostu AkAshe shabda eva cha .. 6..\\
ete pa~ncha guNA rAjanmahAbhUteShu pa~nchasu .
vartante sarvalokeShu yeShu lokAH pratiShThitAH .. 7..\\
anyonyaM nAbhivartante sAmyaM bhavati vai yadA .
yadA tu viShamIbhAvamAvishanti parasparam .
tadA dehairdehavanto vyatirohanti nAnyathA .. 8..\\
AnupUrvyAdvinashyanti jAyante chAnupUrvashaH .
sarvANyaparimeyAni tadeShA.n rUpamaishvaram .. 9..\\
tatra tatra hi dR^ishyante dhAtavaH pA~ncha bhautikAH .
teShAM manuShyAstarkeNa pramANAni prachakShate .. 10..\\
achintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tA.nstarkeNa sAdhayet .
prakR^itibhyaH para.n yattu tadachintyasya lakShaNam .. 11..\\
sudarshanaM pravakShyAmi dvIpa.n te kurunandana .
parimaNDalo mahArAja dvIpo.asau chakrasa.nsthitaH .. 12..\\
nadI jalapratichchhannaH parvataishchAbhrasaMnibhaiH .
puraishcha vividhAkArai ramyairjanapadaistathA .. 13..\\
vR^ikShaiH puShpaphalopetaiH sampannadhanadhAnyavAn .
lAvaNena samudreNa samantAtparivAritaH .. 14..\\
yathA cha puruShaH pashyedAdarshe mukhamAtmanaH .
eva.n sudarshana dvIpo dR^ishyate chandramaNDale .. 15..\\
dviraMshe pippalastatra dviraMshe cha shasho mahAn .

sarvauShadhisamAvApaiH sarvataH parivR^i.nhitaH .
Apastato.anyA viGYeyA eSha sa~NkShepa uchyate .. 16..\\


http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/txt/06.txt

I found those verses in the Bhishma parva - see link above. If you look at the earth "upside down" (in the traditional sense of north being up and south being down, that we're all used to from cartography) from space or from the moon, there really is a distinct rabbit-face which comes from Africa. I'll post a picture to make this clear. No, google maps or other standard maps which render the world in 2-d will not do the trick. It has to be a projection on the face of a sphere, which accounts for the "shrinkage" of the features at the edges - this is a true "from space" view. The pipal leaves part can be seen with some imagination. The point is, that a not-so-educated charioteer like Sanjaya, who was suddenly endowed with divine vision, would indeed see the face(s) of the earth in this "colloquial" fashion, as "rabbit-face and pipal leaves". The "rabbit-face" description is especially astute, as a picture will make clear (when I get around to creating the appropriate spherical projection and posting it).

In the meantime, can somebody knowledgeable in Sanskrit take a shot at translating the above into English? I saw "lavanena samudrena," which seems like a description of land being surrounded by salty oceans. Also, "chandramandale" leads me to believe that the view is described from the moon?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Sep 2017 09:51

Gyan wrote:As per my High School level understanding, the European view on History seems to be that any Civilzation anywhere in the world could have started only after the end of last ice age ie 10,000 years ago. At that time a portion of Europe was also habitable.

But if Civilzation in India started at Ice Age Maximus (not at end) then that would be around 20,000 years ago when practically no part of so called Anatolia was habitable.

Now if we lower Sea level by 500m (rather than 500 feet) then it seems one could walk from Horn of Africa to coast of Gujarat. Indian Coast would be almost 100-200km ahead of where it is today. And India would be practically the only place in the world where agriculture could have produced adequate surplus so that a modern large Civilization could have developed. OIT?

By the way one would be able to row from West Africa to South America in small boats as some peaks of Mid Atlantic Mountain Range might be islands. Voila one more concumdrum solved.

In general the west have had a blind spot about 10000 BC - so much so that they have made the era before 10,000 BC into a separate "Yuga" and the period after is holocene. In terms of human civilization the people of Europe and N America have more or less dismissed anything before holocene as a time of savages only and they don't think about or give a damn about what might have been happening in India. It's just not their past. It's ours. This may be changing - and it had bloody well better change.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Sep 2017 10:06

sudarshan wrote:http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/txt/06.txt

I found those verses in the Bhishma parva - see link above. If you look at the earth "upside down" (in the traditional sense of north being up and south being down, that we're all used to from cartography) from space or from the moon, there really is a distinct rabbit-face which comes from Africa. I'll post a picture to make this clear. No, google maps or other standard maps which render the world in 2-d will not do the trick. It has to be a projection on the face of a sphere, which accounts for the "shrinkage" of the features at the edges - this is a true "from space" view. The pipal leaves part can be seen with some imagination. The point is, that a not-so-educated charioteer like Sanjaya, who was suddenly endowed with divine vision, would indeed see the face(s) of the earth in this "colloquial" fashion, as "rabbit-face and pipal leaves". The "rabbit-face" description is especially astute, as a picture will make clear (when I get around to creating the appropriate spherical projection and posting it).

In the meantime, can somebody knowledgeable in Sanskrit take a shot at translating the above into English? I saw "lavanena samudrena," which seems like a description of land being surrounded by salty oceans. Also, "chandramandale" leads me to believe that the view is described from the moon?

This is the closest I can get to rabbit and peepal
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... NXMVE/view

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 16 Sep 2017 10:44

shiv wrote:
Gyan wrote:As per my High School level understanding, the European view on History seems to be that any Civilzation anywhere in the world could have started only after the end of last ice age ie 10,000 years ago. At that time a portion of Europe was also habitable.

But if Civilzation in India started at Ice Age Maximus (not at end) then that would be around 20,000 years ago when practically no part of so called Anatolia was habitable.

Now if we lower Sea level by 500m (rather than 500 feet) then it seems one could walk from Horn of Africa to coast of Gujarat. Indian Coast would be almost 100-200km ahead of where it is today. And India would be practically the only place in the world where agriculture could have produced adequate surplus so that a modern large Civilization could have developed. OIT?

By the way one would be able to row from West Africa to South America in small boats as some peaks of Mid Atlantic Mountain Range might be islands. Voila one more concumdrum solved.

In general the west have had a blind spot about 10000 BC - so much so that they have made the era before 10,000 BC into a separate "Yuga" and the period after is holocene. In terms of human civilization the people of Europe and N America have more or less dismissed anything before holocene as a time of savages only and they don't think about or give a damn about what might have been happening in India. It's just not their past. It's ours. This may be changing - and it had bloody well better change.


And 10,000 years ago;; limitation creates a huge issue for USA. HOW did humans reach the peepal leaf err Americas? All present theories of Europeans/Asians walking across ice is falling apart for being idiotic. Hence someone rowed or sailed there. When? I think Ice Age Maximus ie 20,000 years ago.

Even Delhi Purana Kila which is locally believed to be from Mahabharata era, 5000+ year old settlement evidence has been found.

If we change the Dept of Sea by 500m at ice age Maximus then face of globe will change. Problem is that eliminates Europe, Antolia, Levant etc as cradle of misinformation err civilization.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Sep 2017 12:20

shiv wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:This actually puzzles me. Is this about physical evidence for the zero symbol? If so, fine. But there are dozens of mentions of decimal numbers in the Vedas. Numbers like 99,000 also. So is the idea that these numbers were simply counted mentally with no writing?


Its the physical evidence. The concept of having a symbol for zero to mean nothingness in the place value system. It could be a more concrete formulation of what was already mentioned in the Vedas

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Marten » 16 Sep 2017 12:27

shiv wrote:
sudarshan wrote:http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/txt/06.txt

I found those verses in the Bhishma parva - see link above. If you look at the earth "upside down" (in the traditional sense of north being up and south being down, that we're all used to from cartography) from space or from the moon, there really is a distinct rabbit-face which comes from Africa. I'll post a picture to make this clear. No, google maps or other standard maps which render the world in 2-d will not do the trick. It has to be a projection on the face of a sphere, which accounts for the "shrinkage" of the features at the edges - this is a true "from space" view. The pipal leaves part can be seen with some imagination. The point is, that a not-so-educated charioteer like Sanjaya, who was suddenly endowed with divine vision, would indeed see the face(s) of the earth in this "colloquial" fashion, as "rabbit-face and pipal leaves". The "rabbit-face" description is especially astute, as a picture will make clear (when I get around to creating the appropriate spherical projection and posting it).

In the meantime, can somebody knowledgeable in Sanskrit take a shot at translating the above into English? I saw "lavanena samudrena," which seems like a description of land being surrounded by salty oceans. Also, "chandramandale" leads me to believe that the view is described from the moon?

This is the closest I can get to rabbit and peepal
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... NXMVE/view

Saar, an outline would be helpful. I may be wrong but initially it appeared that the description was of the moon itself (where we can see the shasah!).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Sep 2017 12:28

A_Gupta wrote:there is also positive evidence that these are "make in India", regardless of AIT/OIT; and that it is only from the Indian cultural context that one can understand why these would be mentioned in a treaty


This fact alone destroys AIT/AMT. Since we know that the Mittani treaty Gods were Indian in origin & the treaty itself is attested to be of 1800 BCE vintage, it means that the Indian culture surrounding these Gods must've been a few hundred years older at least. We have to take into account the time taken for these Gods & culture to be exported to Syria and the local culture there to incorporate them into their treaties!

Mainstream AIT is 1500 - 1300 BCE!! Unless Aryans invented time-travel, I don't see how these dates can line up.

That "whoosh" sound you hear is that of gas escaping the AIT balloon.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Sep 2017 12:35

Dipanker wrote:And that leads to this pesky little problem of presence of horses in IVC. WIth the exception of Surkotada, horse bones only start to appear in the "secured layers" late IVC around 1700 BC or so.
Surkotada itself is controversial, since the bones found here could be those of wild asses of Ran of Kutch.


You are indulging in goalpost shifting.

Before you go to horses, do you accept that the Mittani treaty proves that Vedic Gods made their way to Syria prior to 1800 BCE?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Sep 2017 12:48

shiv wrote: The bone record and archaeological record do not indicate that horses were absent or unknown.The bone records also do not show a great jump in the proportion of horse bones after 1500 BC as would be expected if horses were introduced and then became the preferred mode of transport and war. The horse bone proportions in India continue to be low after 1500 BC.


....... and this is the same trend seen in archaeology as well. There is NO DRAMATIC CHANGE in Indus Valley material culture. Just like there is no dramatic change in horse bones. Horse bones were rare before 1500 BCE. They continue to be rare after that date. Pottery patterns before & after the 1500 BCE date show a slow & gradual change, indicating civilizational continuity.

The whole 1500 BCE date is like the 0 BC date. An artificial milestone representing a non-existent event (AIT & birth of Jeebus). The West likes to setup these stakes-on-the-ground to measure everything in terms of "before this" & "after this". Completely fake & designed to serve an agenda.

What is actually dramatic is the evidence for Aryan invasion in Europe and Syria! Out of nowhere, you see new Vedic Gods appearing. You see pottery patterns changing dramatically. You see new gene inflows.

The presence of these positive evidences in Europe & the absence of such evidences in India point to only one thing --> an Out of India emigration. This is the most parsimonious explanation. Everything else is contortion.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Sep 2017 14:26

Marten wrote:
shiv wrote:This is the closest I can get to rabbit and peepal
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... NXMVE/view

Saar, an outline would be helpful. I may be wrong but initially it appeared that the description was of the moon itself (where we can see the shasah!).

In fact Antarctica and South America together look like 2 Peepal leaves, but in that view I could not get Africa-rabbit

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Sep 2017 18:08

Prem Kumar wrote:....... and this is the same trend seen in archaeology as well. There is NO DRAMATIC CHANGE in Indus Valley material culture. Just like there is no dramatic change in horse bones. Horse bones were rare before 1500 BCE. They continue to be rare after that date. Pottery patterns before & after the 1500 BCE date show a slow & gradual change, indicating civilizational continuity.

The whole 1500 BCE date is like the 0 BC date. An artificial milestone representing a non-existent event (AIT & birth of Jeebus). The West likes to setup these stakes-on-the-ground to measure everything in terms of "before this" & "after this". Completely fake & designed to serve an agenda.

What is actually dramatic is the evidence for Aryan invasion in Europe and Syria! Out of nowhere, you see new Vedic Gods appearing. You see pottery patterns changing dramatically. You see new gene inflows.

The presence of these positive evidences in Europe & the absence of such evidences in India point to only one thing --> an Out of India emigration. This is the most parsimonious explanation. Everything else is contortion.


I am presenting my talk at next conference on - What will falsify (kill) AIT? (truly, What killed AIT)

I present methodical evidence in sequence.. from

Linguistics
Archaeology
genetics
--
astronomy
oceanography
seismology
hydrology - geology- geophysics
Triangulation between epic-rigveda-relative chronology- hydrology evidence
climatology
genealogies of kings and sages
anthropology
paleo-botany
paleontology

--
Key is for Indic influencers and the rest to understand it, and then talk about it to fellow indic, groups, crowds, young and old.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Sep 2017 18:12

^ As I was writing my paper, I tried to place AIT via 5 elements of a scientific theory. Anyone interested may try it by asking questions...

(1) Siddhanta - statement of a theory
(2) Pratyaksha - objective testing
(3) Pramana- explanation/description
(4) Anumnana - inference/predictions
(5) Agama - background knoledge/based on which theory is based and is objectively tested...

this exercise itself is devastating for AIT
--
To practice it, before doing it for AIT, one may try doing this, to understand the force of this framework.. by doing it for theories of Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Einstein etc...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Sep 2017 18:20

Calling Nileshji. APB put out by organizers of u-no-what

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 16 Sep 2017 18:59

shiv wrote:This is the closest I can get to rabbit and peepal
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... NXMVE/view


Oh good, you have a way of generating those spherical projections?

Try this. Don't try to get both the rabbit and pipal leaves in the same view. If you see the description, it says "in one phase you see pipal leaves, in another, you see a rabbit."

So do two views, one centered slightly north of Africa, and another centered at its antipode (slightly south of Brazil, maybe?). So if there is indeed a rabbit and pipal leaves, each is seen in isolation and by turns, the way they would be if you look at a rotating earth from space.

Marten saab, that thought crossed my mind too. "Sasha bindu" (rabbit mark) is the name given to the mark on the moon's face, corresponding to what is known as "man on the moon" in the west. This term is also used for Vishnu in the Sahasranama. But then, what's that about "lavanena samudrena?" Which is why I was looking for a translation of the full verse, so we have the entire context.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Sep 2017 22:25

UlanBatori wrote:Calling Nileshji. APB put out by organizers of u-no-what

working through it. will send soon.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Marten » 16 Sep 2017 22:33

Sudarshan ji, lavana samudra would mean brackish ocean, and I don't know enough of the language to know deeper or sukshma meanings.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 16 Sep 2017 23:07

Dipanker wrote:
JE Menon wrote:Speaking of horses, this is about their global origin in India

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles ... -india.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 081752.htm

The original study is from Johns Hopkins, suitably chi chi


Indeed there were "indigenous" Indian horses "Equus sivalensis" as late as 10,000 YBP when they went extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equus_sivalensis
Equus sivalensis is an extinct equid, discovered in the Siwalik hills. Remains date to 2.6 million years ago, and it is assumed that it was extinct during the last Ice Age, between 75,000 and 10,000 years ago, as part of the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinction. Remains have been found in middle to late Pleistocene locations in the Siwaliks and in Tamil Nadu, and recently, as a "Great Indian horse" in Andhra, dated to ca. 75,000 BP.


1. Why is the above word "indigenous" in this discussion and why is it in quotes?

2. The Johns Hopkins paper is clear in making the case that ALL horses on the planet evolved out of precursors in India. If I am wrong in that statement, point out why please.

3. The Wikipedia link you provided is a stub, and refers to two papers (one is a 401) and the other is a description of a Roman excavation in the UK, which diverts to discuss the four types of horses inhabited Europe in "prehistoric" (when did prehistory begin?) times. This is basically all the reference to the Sivalensis there is in that paper: "This race, characterised by fine limbs and shortpillared teeth, probably represents Equus sivalensis, the 15-hands horse, whose remains are found in the Siwalik Hills of India. An engraving from the cave of La Mouthe (Fig. 55) probably
gives us the Palaeolith's conception of the ancient 'Siwalik' race".

4. The other link in the stub is an article in the Hindu in 2002 by the racist neo-Nazi "intellectual" Michael Witzel, whose poor knowledge of the Vedas was clearly demonstrated during his visit to India in 2009.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Sep 2017 23:23

Karan M wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:It is interesting to note the scare these 'nakshatras' are causing in the AIT and AMT(eh?) camp. I am lovin it.


Absolutely. Today you are the trailblazer. At best people can claim these references were auto-inserted back into MB by our ancestors. Well, guess what you just proved how sophisticated they were in terms of star mapping. Tomorrow somebody may take your work and correlate it to archaeological evidence. And your work will be the driving force.

Thank you ji. Sadhu Sandhu

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 17 Sep 2017 00:20

Gyan wrote:As per my High School level understanding, the European view on History seems to be that any Civilzation anywhere in the world could have started only after the end of last ice age ie 10,000 years ago. At that time a portion of Europe was also habitable.But if Civilzation in India started at Ice Age Maximus (not at end) then that would be around 20,000 years ago when practically no part of so called Anatolia was habitable.Now if we lower Sea level by 500m (rather than 500 feet) then it seems one could walk from Horn of Africa to coast of Gujarat. Indian Coast would be almost 100-200km ahead of where it is today. And India would be practically the only place in the world where agriculture could have produced adequate surplus so that a modern large Civilization could have developed. OIT? By the way one would be able to row from West Africa to South America in small boats as some peaks of Mid Atlantic Mountain Range might be islands. Voila one more concumdrum solved.


I may be wrong but some one said India escaped last ice age that North India was the onleee place left for humanity to survive.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 17 Sep 2017 06:19

Marten wrote:Sudarshan ji, lavana samudra would mean brackish ocean, and I don't know enough of the language to know deeper or sukshma meanings.


Yes, that's what I was saying, salty or brackish ocean. But would this be an accurate descriptor of the moon? The other items in those verses (which I can understand - a little bit here and there - not the whole thing) refer to beautiful islands, mountains, etc. Again, these seem to be describing the earth, not the moon. So I was just responding to your earlier post saying "sasho mahan" could refer to a feature on the moon, instead of the earth - I'm inclined to disagree with this idea of yours, based on the "beautiful islands, mountains, salty oceans," etc. references in the verses.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 06:34

Nilesh Oak wrote:I am presenting my talk at next conference on - What will falsify (kill) AIT? (truly, What killed AIT)

Nilesh let me point out something that bugs me in this entire debate. Many of us desi "science types" for whom English is a layer of language added on top of our mother tongue often do not see the manner in which western academia use a web of rhetorical constricts and straw men to obfuscate and take the debate in a direction that is bound to reach a dead end. The concept of "Aryan Invasion" and our objections to the "Aryan Invasion Theory" is an example.

I will use an example of a conversation I had with a 10 year old nephew of mine many years ago
Vikram: "What lives 5 feet underground, is green in colour and eats stones?"
Me: "Duh"
Vikram: "The Green Stone Eater. But let me ask you a serious question this time"
Me "OK"
Vikram: "If you drill a hole through the centre of the earth so it comes out the other side and drop a stone in it what will happen?"
Me: "Blah blah blah.."
Vikram: "No. Wrong. The Green Stone Eater will eat it up as soon as it goes down 5 feet


In this childish joke the existence of the Green Stone Eater has been established initially. In the second step the fate of what happens to rocks inside the earth is being discussed, with the Green Stone Eater being reintroduced if necessary. Arguments about the fate of the stone are diverted to the fake Green Stone Eater. If you argue about Green Stone Eater you are then fighting a strawman, leaving aside the subject of what happens to the stone.

The Aryan Invasion Theory is similar. First the straw man concept of Aryan was cooked up -like Green Stone Eater.

As a second step it was claimed that Aryans invaded India (or migrated) bringing language. If you object to the latter and say that there was no evidence of invasion you are by default accepting that "Aryans" existed. And this type of argument has in fact led to the side effect of people not knocking down the straw man while they debate the life story of the straw man.

Trying to rebut AIT but showing that there were no migrations is a mistake and that mistake is being repeated by genetics studies. Migration is not the issue. The Aryan race simply did not and does not exist and could not have migrated.

I think everyone would have understood this easily if they had said "Martian Invasion Theory". If that had been the idea then everyone would have pounced on the "Martian" word and asked wtf are Martians? But what has happened now is that Western academia have moved away from "Aryan" are are saying "language migration". we are still stuck on Aryan. We need to blow down the Aryan (and related Dravidian) straw man and start looking at the core issue of "Language migration"

I think language migration needs to be addressed with the following questions:
"If language was brought by some people from point A to point B, what is the evidence that the language existed in point A?"

Culture is not the same as language. People will be hard put to differentiate the culture of Maharashtra from that of Karnataka. Yet one is "Indo-European language" and the other is "Dravidian language". Finding evidence of culture is does not indicate finding language. For an outside observer the culture of a person from France is no different from someone in Germany.

Linguistics - especially "Philology" or "historical linguistics" which is no different from "phrenology" or voodoo magic has been used to write history and that edifice must be torn down.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 17 Sep 2017 07:50

Prem Kumar wrote:The whole 1500 BCE date is like the 0 BC date. An artificial milestone representing a non-existent event (AIT & birth of Jeebus). The West likes to setup these stakes-on-the-ground to measure everything in terms of "before this" & "after this". Completely fake & designed to serve an agenda.

What is actually dramatic is the evidence for Aryan invasion in Europe and Syria! Out of nowhere, you see new Vedic Gods appearing. You see pottery patterns changing dramatically. You see new gene inflows.

The presence of these positive evidences in Europe & the absence of such evidences in India point to only one thing --> an Out of India emigration. This is the most parsimonious explanation. Everything else is contortion.


If the purpose of debunking AIT is to refute a 1500BC date, even the Priya Moorjani paper does the job. Per her paper ANI, ASI admixture started around 4000 YBP, meaning the ANI folks were already present for centuries before 1500BC, but if the purpose is to show that ANI were autochthonous I am not so sure.

Indo European migration into Europe is done deal, these people turned out to be the Steppe/Yamnaya/Corded Ware people carrying R1b DNA, this part of the problem is considered solved.

For Syrian Mitanni, there is Mittani split theory which happened in the BMAC region around 2000 BC or so.

So far there is no genetic support for OIT. If there was OIT one would expect to find at least some old ancestral south Indian (ASI) genes outside India. There is none so far.

R1a1* is common between the Indian carrying ancestral north Indian (ANI) and the Central Asians, so far the older R1a1* samples are from Central Asia, India has not found anything older to indicate and outward movement. Rakhigarhi DNA results are still not out, rumor has it that it is non R1a1*.

As of now it appears that the OIT happened in two phases, Y1K period ( Roma people ), and Y2K when the Indian programmers went out in large numbers.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 17 Sep 2017 09:02

SriJoy wrote:
peter wrote:Sure. There are many astronomical observations in Mahabharata. Winter solstice, eclipses, sequence of repeating eclipses, movement of pole star etc.

If you were to identify the dates for each of the observation and some of these observations may be satisfied on multiple dates what distribution of dates do you expect?


If i were to trust that these dates are original to the work (which i don't), i'd expect some dates to have multiple repeats and a convergence of dates resulting from multiple observations converging on a single date.

Why would they converge on a single date?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 10:56

Dipanker wrote:If the purpose of debunking AIT is to refute a 1500BC date, even the Priya Moorjani paper does the job.

Let me mark this as a statement that you agree with but will be disputed by many supporters of AIT

The 1500 BC date is critical to the language spread story. The 2500 BC language in Sintashta and Adronovo - where horses were buried has been assumed to be a "precursor language" to all IndoEuropean languages. The story is that the wheel and horse were crucial to the spread of Indo-European language from the Russian steppe to Europe and Asia. The language is hypothesized to have spread because of horses and chariots being the hallmark of a superior culture who were militarily dominant owing to the speed and power of horses and chariots.

According to this story the people left the Russian Steppe after 2500 BC when chariots had been perfected and one branch spread to Europe, producing ancient Greek and there was an "Indo-Iranian" branch that went towards Central Asia towards the BMAC and later split into Iranian (Avestan) and Old Indic (Vedic sanskrit) by 1500 BC

A date earlier than 1500 BC is fatal to not just the bogey of Aryan migration but also to the cooked up story of origin and spread of Indo European languages. That is why there is so soo much resistance to the "revisionism" from India. the entire language spread story and the cabal supporting that will collapse in a heap because they have cooked up both dates and languages and talk as if they have it all sussed out

There is no explanation whatsoever of how "old Indic" could have appeared in Syria in 1800 BC. That is an anomaly.
Last edited by shiv on 17 Sep 2017 17:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 11:02

Dipanker wrote:
Indo European migration into Europe is done deal, these people turned out to be the Steppe/Yamnaya/Corded Ware people carrying R1b DNA, this part of the problem is considered solved.

Hold your Equus caballus sir.

What do you mean "Indo-European" migration? It was Russo-European. No India there. There is not even half an ounce of proof that the people travelling from the Steppe to Europe were speaking an Indo-Euroeapn language and if they were, the identity of that language.

The migration is true. The identity of language is a bluff. At best it is an assumption that proponents like to call as "a reasonable assumption" as you did yourself. Science cannot depend on "reasonable assumptions". Rhetoric and philosophy are OK with reasonable assumptions.

You are repeating one of the biggest bluffs made by linguists about "Indo-European" languages.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 12:03

Dipanker wrote:
For Syrian Mitanni, there is Mittani split theory which happened in the BMAC region around 2000 BC or so.

This is nice.

Distance from Balkh (Bactria) to Damascus Syria is 3600 km
Distance from Balkh (Bactria) to Lahore is 1200 km

So as per this theory the language went 3600 km west to Syria in 200 years (from 2000 BC to 1800 BC)
The same language took 500 years to travel 1200 km to reach Punjab by 1500 BC

Do you actually believe all this? It is your right to believe it of course but I find the theory laughable. The "Indo-Iranian" language in BMAC splits into 2 parts - an "Iranian" part and an "Indic" part. The Indic part suddenly shoots off west to Syria travelling 3600 km in just 200 years to rule a kingdom there. But it takes 500 years to go just 1200 km from Northern Afghanistan to Punjab. And in between these two "Indic" parts the Iranian part sits cosily doing nothing. Flippin heck!

This is the kind of crap we meed to swallow without protest to support current language migration theories. Bah.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 17 Sep 2017 14:35

Horse in India. Good writeup by Danino:

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 17:59

Dipanker wrote:For Syrian Mitanni, there is Mittani split theory which happened in the BMAC region around 2000 BC or so.

More on this statement:
Here is a relevant paper with an analysis of the Sanskrit proper names that were found in Syria
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... sp=sharing

All the names are Sanskrit names. 8 of them can be found in the Rig Veda, or mentioned in the Mahabharata or mentioned by Panini

The paper describes the language as "old Indic" rather than "old Persian" because the "s" sounds have not changed to "h" sounds, and the "sw" sound is not changed to "sp" as in Persian (eg asva in Sanskrit versus aspa in Persian)

In other words if Dipanker's statement is to be believed the same language as the Rig Veda already existed in the BMAC region (Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex) in 2000 BC before the language went to either Iran or to India. By 1800 BC those names appear in Syria - 3,600 km to the west. In a later stage the language went to Iran and India according to this AIT theory and the Rig Veda was composed in 1500 BC while the names had all been known from 2000 BC in Bactria (BMAC)

This theory implies that Vedic Sanskrit existed in BMAC (Bactria) in 2000 BC and later, by 1500 BC, went to Punjab where the Rig Veda was composed. Now here's the problem. The Rig Veda has copious references to a fast flowing Saraswati river which is definitely before 3000 BC. By 1500 BC the river was dry and the Rig Veda could not have known of a river that was fast flowing river that existed 1500 years earlier.

The explanation offered that the earliest Indo Europeans started off from the Steppe (Sintashta) in 2500 BC and had developed Vedic Sanskrit in Bactria by 2000 BC , went to Syria by 1800 BC and reached Punjab by 1500 BC only to compose a Rig Veda referring to a river that existed in 3000 BC - at which time they had not even left the steppe region of Russia is an obviously fatuous contortion of dates to fit a pre-determined theory.

The most likely explanation is that the Rig Vedic language already existed by 3000 BC in Punjab from where it was taken to Syria by 1800 BC. Bactria is mentioned in Vedic texts but no dates so the 2000 BC date mentioned by Dipanker is simply a concoction. A language that already existed in Punjab in 3000 BC could not have originated in Russia in 2500 BC. But the date of 2500 BC in the Russian steppe cannot be pushed back to 3500 BC or 4000 BC because the horse and chariot graves are from 2500 BC. Obviously the 2500 BC horse and chariot graves of Sintashta are NOT the source of the 3000 BC Rig Veda

What this also means is that the Sanskrit of the Rig Veda existed before Old Persian and Old Persian is not a sister language of Vedic Sanskrit but a daughter language. This is exactly what is indicated by studies of the Zend Avesta I mentioned earlier

QED


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