Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

[Nilesh Oak]

Nilesh If you have 30+ projects you are like DRDO. Need to focus or frame out the smaller projects to a band of followers.

Yes to both.

In first case, me learning new craft.. so uphill. Do let me know if you know a sharp and smart experienced scriptwriter who is very much indic at his/her heart and enthusiastic enough to do this for the heck of it. Of course, there could be (more than likely) good rewards at the end. But this is totally new territory for me so don't want to promise anything. Bottomline.. the person should be willing to put in sweat equity for the sake of Dharma and trust that 'Dharmo rakshati rakshatiah." BTW, I have met few, run into few, spend 2+ months with couple of them.. but realized that no success was going to happen and thus decided to cut my losses and close the chapter. They had experience but were totally incapable of comprehending both macro and micro objectives of the project.


In second case, things are working out ok.. slowly but surely. Actually I am delegating/framing out to band of followers and they are good.. in fact in some cases masters in their own right. Still lot of hand holding.

[A_Gupta]

a_gupta: Further, in some cases, one had to understand just how the observation was made. One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today.

The reference to the arundhati and vasishta stars was an observations in the Mahabharata did not involve any calculations-- just the relative positions of the stars. How does that involve any astronomical calculations?

At a minimum, it requires knowing which stars Arundhati and Vasishta refer to. That needs knowledge of Indian texts.

PS: The proper motions of stars may be significant.
https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... in_motion/

Also:
Alcor is moving -16.04 ± 0.11 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 120.21 ± 0.13 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
Mizar is moving -25.97 ± 1.40 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 119.01 ± 1.71 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
https://www.universeguide.com/star/alcor
https://www.universeguide.com/star/mizar

OK, over 7000 years, the change in the Alcor-Mizar separation (north south) would be of the order of an arc minute.
The overall position in the sky (north-south) would have changed by the order of 3 arc minutes.

[Nilesh Oak]

The reference to the arundhati and vasishta stars was an observations in the Mahabharata did not involve any calculations-- just the relative positions of the stars. How does that involve any astronomical calculations?

At a minimum, it requires knowing which stars Arundhati and Vasishta refer to. That needs knowledge of Indian texts.

PS: The proper motions of stars may be significant.
https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... in_motion/

Also:
Alcor is moving -16.04 ± 0.11 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 120.21 ± 0.13 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
Mizar is moving -25.97 ± 1.40 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 119.01 ± 1.71 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
https://www.universeguide.com/star/alcor
https://www.universeguide.com/star/mizar

OK, over 7000 years, the change in the Alcor-Mizar separation (north south) would be of the order of an arc minute.
The overall position in the sky (north-south) would have changed by the order of 3 arc minutes.

A Gupta ji

If you go back to your original comment...

a_gupta: Further, in some cases, one had to understand just how the observation was made. One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today.

The important point to realize is that "There is no calculation to reproduce in the way it was originally made". It is a visual observation.
--
If someone is theorizing that these positions were back calculated in Gupta period (pun intended.. but this speculative nonsense of epics being severely interpolated during Gupta period is being claimed in social media, of course without even a tinge of evidence to support it), then of course, what you are stating ("One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today.") indeed comes into the picture.

Of course, that would (should) very much excite DIO folks. In reality, if they care is different subject.

[Nilesh Oak]

BTW....

Also:
Alcor is moving -16.04 ± 0.11 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 120.21 ± 0.13 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
Mizar is moving -25.97 ± 1.40 miliarcseconds/year towards the north and 119.01 ± 1.71 miliarcseconds/year east if we saw them in the horizon.
https://www.universeguide.com/star/alcor
https://www.universeguide.com/star/mizar

The net movement of both stars is to the South-East (with respect to say ecliptic north pole), and with Mizar about 60% faster than Arundhati in the south direction.

This was indeed the reason AV observation - Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishtha is the unique instance (only during 11091 BCE - 4508 BCE) of antiquity.

This is because as one goes backward, in antiquity, through another round of precession of earth's axis, Arundhati would not have appeared to walk ahead of Vasishtha.

[A_Gupta]

BTW....

This was indeed the reason AV observation - Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishtha is the unique instance (only during 11091 BCE - 4508 BCE) of antiquity.

This is because as one goes backward, in antiquity, through another round of precession of earth's axis, Arundhati would not have appeared to walk ahead of Vasishtha.

What was the angular separation of Arundhati-Vasishtha around 4500 BCE?

[vikasdangi]

Note that even these genetic lines far predate Kurgan peoples who leave Archeological evidence only from 4000 BC with classical migration as late as 2000 BC. Per AIT, Kurgans from 2000BC to about 500BC completely replaced entire European lineages, swamped North India and also produced completely different religious structures, wrote Veda's, wrote Zoroastrian texts, and technologies in one fell swoop. They also then proceeded to depopulate Central Asia to such an extent that there is almost no trace of R1a1a left in Central Asia at the place of supposed birth. Every single European language and many many lines besides are present in India. AIT claims that all the lines present in India just died out elsewhere. It is a sign of how little imagination these people have.

[Nilesh Oak]

BTW....

This was indeed the reason AV observation - Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishtha is the unique instance (only during 11091 BCE - 4508 BCE) of antiquity.

This is because as one goes backward, in antiquity, through another round of precession of earth's axis, Arundhati would not have appeared to walk ahead of Vasishtha.

What was the angular separation of Arundhati-Vasishtha around 4500 BCE?

Don't know.

[A_Gupta]

By my calculation, simply extrapolating the current proper motions backward in time, the angular separation of Arundhati and Vasishtha 6,500 years ago was pretty much what it is today (11.4 minutes back then vs 11.8 minutes today). Imperceptible.
Which is a good thing.

A nicer thing would have been for the angular separation to have increased perceptibly as we go back 6,500 years.

The Arundhati (Alcor) - Vasishtha (Mizar) system is quite remarkable by telescope. The Mizar system is actually made of two binary systems (4 stars) and Alcor itself is a binary. The Alcor system is by current measurement gravitationally bound to Mizar system with an orbital period of around 750,000 years (which is why I feel confident in simply extrapolating back 6500 years).

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observin ... d03252015/

[UlanBatori]

AoA!

I need some serious info: A list of Brophejars (any rank) in North America, S. America, Oirope, Phar East, Australia, Africa whom you guys would accept as reasonably like-minded as in **not** biss-ant commie-paki. Purpose: Evil 6th coujin wants to see if they will contribute beer-review baber to a Jirga on Vedas. For example, Broph. Juluri qualifies. Can't think of many others any more. Younger Generation seems to be 99.9999% spaghetti-spine onlee.

[UlanBatori]

Gee! You'd think this dhaga had been taken over by Mullah KumbhaKarna. Here's something to wake ppl up:
Prof. Narahari Achar's videos on how MBW ****MUST** have happened in 3067 BCE.

I note that there is no published paper, just a lot of yak-yak and Majik Videos.

[Nilesh Oak]

Gee! You'd think this dhaga had been taken over by Mullah KumbhaKarna. Here's something to wake ppl up:
Prof. Narahari Achar's videos on how MBW ****MUST** have happened in 3067 BCE.

I note that there is no published paper, just a lot of yak-yak and Majik Videos.

Prof. Achar has published this work, in peer reviewed journals, conference proceedings etc. multiple times since 1999. What is interesting is that no reviewers could identify utter illogical and unscientific nature of his claims.

Not sure if this says more of Prof. Achar's sophistication or inability of "peer" reviewers in detecting it.

[UlanBatori]

Please see my post above. Some of the experts here should please consider the possibility of being able to write a 1-page abstract and 8-page paper with clear references. If you don't get your work into such shape, how can we propagate it properly?

[UlanBatori]

AoA shivullah! By now you should have recovered from EyeEyeTee conference. How about a vijit to Gleat Satanistan? Put in a paper pls?

[shiv]

AoA shivullah! By now you should have recovered from EyeEyeTee conference. How about a vijit to Gleat Satanistan? Put in a paper pls?

I have a couple of ready papers, refs and all - but I can answer for sure only in 2 weeks time because one may (or may not) get selected.

[UlanBatori]

Jirga-e-Vedas is WAVES 2018.Date is given wrong: It eej Aug. 2-5 onlee.

[periaswamy]

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/taj-mahal-controversy-sangeet-som-blot-remark-bjp-yogi-adityanath-mughal-empire-4903344/

For example, the people who composed and recited the Rig Veda for centuries were a beef-eating, horse-sacrificing lot. Medieval Hindu rulers desecrated one another’s temples and idols (a practice which inspired similar behaviour among Muslim rulers after they arrived in India).

Just of topical interest, re: the clout of the AIT crowd. genocide-glorifying POS "academic" Audrey Truschke continues her ongoing pretence as "expert on sooth asian history" and is being given ample space by the "Indian" media. 3500 year old vedas and "horse sacrifice" thrown around as fact very casually -- another new product of the BS-producing factory of "Indology academics" and student of chief charlatan Sheldon Pollock.

Apparently, all the idol breaking behavior of islamist kings was just mimic-ing the behavior of Hindu kings. This is being repeated from this farticle

https://scroll.in/article/767065/war-trophies-when-hindu-kings-raided-temples-and-abducted-idols

I am pretty sure she is completely aware of Islamic aversion to idol worship as the motivator for their destruction of temples, as displayed by the Taliban. But pretends that it was learned behavior from Indian hindu kings.

Indian history does not belong to the modern nation state of India

She clearly thinks she is too clever by half.

[shiv]

Sorry OT
hahahahahahahahaha

[JE Menon]

Truschke too will be doniggered...

Some of us remember when Christine Fair, on Twitter, recounted an episode where she was invited to a party at the Doniger residence during her university days, and she went with her 9 year old (IIRC) nephew. It turned out, however, that the party was not quite a family friendly one in the sense that draft beer was being served from a keg where the tap was designed as a penis/scrotum...

It also turns out that Doniger had a punchbowl full of dildos at her bar at home - all in all, not the picture of scholarly rectitude that she presents on air. Fair had photographs, which she uploaded on Twitter. I have seen them, but did not have the foresight to screenshot and/or download at the time. The photos were removed by Fair (I presume) fairly quickly, perhaps under some sort of legal threat (who knows). But some of the texts remained...

[Gyan]

Church ran a huge & massive campaign to destroy temples of all native & ancient religions between 300AD to 500AD. RoP simply carried over from Christianity in this regard. RoP was just a militant & barbaric arm of RoL perhaps launched to topple Persian Empire.

[periaswamy]

https://twitter.com/newsflicks/status/9 ... 3406399488

Now Christian missionary Max Mueller is a master of Indian vedas once again. Max Mueller Bhavan needs to be renamed, so that the charlatan can be forgotten by Indians.

"There is nothing wrong with foreigners interpreting native cultures" is now the excuse for misinterpreting Indian writings based on a half-assed understanding of sanskrit. "Foreigners should be able to interpret the cultures of other people" -- this is to justify the theologists in the west misinterpreting vedas and Indian texts any way they wish.

But this is a false argument, because the real problem here is that the Max Muellers, Wendy Donigers, and Audrey Trushckes and Sheldon Pollocks will not engage with people from the very cultures that they are pretending to understand.

Of course, as Audrey Truschke repeatedly defends her BS, you can only engage with these western "vedic scholars" if you attend an american university where they teach their "indology" Bulls**t. Nice circular argument. Indian sepoys like the ones working the US State dept.(Tanvi Madan) and american think tanks (Sadanand Dhume) are pushing this line as a group. This is happening at the same time minorities in the US are starting to question this kind of arrogant cultural appropriation by the white christians.

[A_Gupta]

A Biblical eclipse, hypothesized and dated.
https://www.rt.com/politics/official-wo ... -pharaohs/
https://academic.oup.com/astrogeo/artic ... m=fulltext

[Prem]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... paign=show
ASI approves excavation at site of Mahabharata’s ‘house of lac'

MEERUT: After years of requests by archaeologists and local historians, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has finally approved the excavation of what locals believe is the site of the 'Lakshagriha', the house of lac which features in an important incident in the Mahabharata.
The site is located in Barnawa area of Baghpat district.Retired ASI superintending archaeologist, (excavation) KK Sharma said, "Lakshagriha plays a significant part in the Mahabharata. The Kauravas had built the palace out of lac and planned to burn the Pandavas alive, but the brothers escaped through a tunnel.The structure was located in what is now Baghpat, at the site called Barnawa. In fact, Barnawa is the twisted name of Varnavrat, one of the five villages that the Pandavas had demanded from the Kauravas to settle in after their exile."
Speaking to TOI, director (excavation) of ASI Jitender Nath said, "After a thorough study of the proposal we have given licence to two ASI authorities, Institute of Archaeology in Red Fort, Delhi, and our excavation branch, to jointly conduct the excavation."Asked about the religious significance of the site, Dr SK Manjul, director, Institute of Archaeology, said, "It will not be appropriate to say anything on the religious aspect of this site as of now. We chose this site primarily because of its proximity to other important sites like Chandayan and Sinauli. In Sinauli, excavations had revealed an important Harappan-period burial site. We had recovered skeletons and pottery in large quantities in 2005. Similarly, a copper crown along with carnelian beads was found in Chandayan village in 2014."The crown was found by local archaeologist Amit Rai Jain and the find had been reported by TOI. Though not much remains at the site, its most significant part is the tunnel inside the mound, which the Pandavas may have used to make their escape.Krishan Kant Sharma, associate professor, department of history, Multani Mal PG College Modinagar and secretary of Culture & History Association, "No one has ever ventured too deep into the tunnel as it has several turns. But maybe now this excavation will map its length."

[Gyan]

Church ran a huge & massive campaign to destroy temples of all native & ancient religions between 300AD to 500AD. RoP simply carried over from Christianity in this regard. RoP was just a militant & barbaric arm of RoL perhaps launched to topple Persian Empire.

I was reading some blogs about a theory that there are practically no surviving original manuscripts of Greek Philosophers. The theory goes on to say that after almost complete destruction of European Pagan Knowledge base, some Nestorian & Jesuits Christians saved some libraries in Middle East (after dark ages) and started translating some Persian & Arabic works into Greek. These Persian & Arabic works were in turn based on Sanskrit works. Lot of these translations were reworked and attributed to ancient Greeks to create to myth of Ancient intellectual & academic standing of Europe. So the conclusion is that Old Greek philosphers and scientists may be largely a back dated myth like perhaps Jesus.

The point is I lost the blog links, can someone out me in right direction? Google is not helping.

[krisna]

Edward pococke India in Greece

Don't know if it is useful but a book by Edward Pococke about India in Greece written 2 centuries ago.
It claims that lot of Greece words names places have Sanskrit root words etc. Indians had good interaction with them etc etc.
India is the mother of the greek civilisation sort of .

of course westerners refuse to acknowledge it as it will debunk all their claims easily.

His books original have been lost. some say by the british others say church/Vatican whatever.

[A_Gupta]

https://books.google.com/books?id=Qd41A ... &q&f=false

Edward pococke India in Greece

Don't know if it is useful but a book by Edward Pococke about India in Greece written 2 centuries ago.
It claims that lot of Greece words names places have Sanskrit root words etc. Indians had good interaction with them etc etc.
India is the mother of the greek civilisation sort of .

of course westerners refuse to acknowledge it as it will debunk all their claims easily.

His books original have been lost. some say by the british others say church/Vatican whatever.

[Gyan]

It's good addition to my reading list. There is strong opinion that some Indian religious texts were back dated around 500AD. This is being tackled by Indian Scholars like Nilesh Oak. My limited contribution is to add that if we assume Civilization began at Ice Age Maximum ie 20,000 BC then everything falls into place but at that time Europe was under Ice, so Europeans don't want Civilization to begin till Ice Age end ie 10,000 BC.

The point of my question was, what's is the Original source of proof of existence of Greek Scholars? What's the oldest manuscripts? How old are copies? Who wrote copies? Who found those copies? Was most of Greek copies written in 1500 AD by Nestorian Christians/Jesuits and attributed to vague ancient Greek or Roman names?

[UlanBatori]

How old is the Angkor Wat temple? Is the 12th century dating credible or was it much older?

[Nilesh Oak]

My informal chat/interview with Vastu-shastra team with deep interests in connections of Vastu-shastra with calendars and astronomy

https://youtu.be/iMV3FEiCjCI

[A_Gupta]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11 ... s-by-boat/

For decades, students were taught that the first people in the Americas were a group called the Clovis who walked over the Bering land bridge about 13,500 years ago.

"In a dramatic intellectual turnabout, most archaeologists and other scholars now believe that the earliest Americans followed Pacific Rim shorelines from northeast Asia to Beringia and the Americas."

The pre-Clovis people traveled along a now-drowned coastline, submerged after the last of the ice-age glaciers melted. New techniques in marine archaeology, ranging from ROVs to underwater lasers, are helping scientists explore ancient submerged villages. A team even turned up a 14,500-year-old campsite in Florida in a blackwater sinkhole last year.
...
....
Rick and his colleagues write that the big question now is when pre-Clovis people actually arrived in the Americas. They suggest the arrival could be as early as 20,000 years ago on the verdant kelp highway. Other researchers, however, say people could have arrived during a temperate period about 130,000 years ago

[Nilesh Oak]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/majority-of-scientists-now-agree-that-humans-came-to-the-americas-by-boat/

For decades, students were taught that the first people in the Americas were a group called the Clovis who walked over the Bering land bridge about 13,500 years ago.

"In a dramatic intellectual turnabout, most archaeologists and other scholars now believe that the earliest Americans followed Pacific Rim shorelines from northeast Asia to Beringia and the Americas."

The pre-Clovis people traveled along a now-drowned coastline, submerged after the last of the ice-age glaciers melted. New techniques in marine archaeology, ranging from ROVs to underwater lasers, are helping scientists explore ancient submerged villages. A team even turned up a 14,500-year-old campsite in Florida in a blackwater sinkhole last year.
...
....
Rick and his colleagues write that the big question now is when pre-Clovis people actually arrived in the Americas. They suggest the arrival could be as early as 20,000 years ago on the verdant kelp highway. Other researchers, however, say people could have arrived during a temperate period about 130,000 years ago

A Gupta ji

Thank you
--
BRF members,

Can anyone post the link to PDF?

Appreciate the help,

Nilesh

[A_Gupta]

https://www.livescience.com/61039-ancie ... ivers.html
About the dried-up Saraswati channel:

A few of these cities, including the famed sites of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, sit along major glacier-fed rivers. But the bulk of the Bronze Age Indus villages that have been found so far sit far from flowing water, north of the Thar Desert and between the Ganges-Yamuna and the Indus river systems. As early as the late 1800s, archaeologists and geologists noted a dry paleochannel, like an old riverbed, which ran through many of these settlements. The assumption was that the settlements first grew alongside the river, and then dried up when the river did.

Now, new research reveals that this old story is entirely wrong. In fact, the river that once filled the dry channel dried up more than 3,000 years before the heyday of the Indus civilization. Instead, the ancient people who populated those villages may have relied on seasonal monsoon flooding and the rich, water-trapping clays of the old river valley for a flourishing system of agriculture.

The Sutlej once ran through the old channel, washing down glacial sediments and probably bringing raging seasonal floods to the region. But the dating showed that between 15,000 and 8,000 years ago, the Sutlej changed course. No one knows why, Gupta said, but the course change left behind a low-lying river valley, rich in groundwater and likely fed by small, seasonal monsoon rivers that would inundate the valley in fertile mud. In addition to being a safer place to live than next to a raging glacial river, the valley was fertile.

[shiv]

https://www.livescience.com/61039-ancient-indus-civilization-survived-without-rivers.html
About the dried-up Saraswati channel:

A few of these cities, including the famed sites of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, sit along major glacier-fed rivers. But the bulk of the Bronze Age Indus villages that have been found so far sit far from flowing water, north of the Thar Desert and between the Ganges-Yamuna and the Indus river systems. As early as the late 1800s, archaeologists and geologists noted a dry paleochannel, like an old riverbed, which ran through many of these settlements. The assumption was that the settlements first grew alongside the river, and then dried up when the river did.

Now, new research reveals that this old story is entirely wrong. In fact, the river that once filled the dry channel dried up more than 3,000 years before the heyday of the Indus civilization. Instead, the ancient people who populated those villages may have relied on seasonal monsoon flooding and the rich, water-trapping clays of the old river valley for a flourishing system of agriculture.

The Sutlej once ran through the old channel, washing down glacial sediments and probably bringing raging seasonal floods to the region. But the dating showed that between 15,000 and 8,000 years ago, the Sutlej changed course. No one knows why, Gupta said, but the course change left behind a low-lying river valley, rich in groundwater and likely fed by small, seasonal monsoon rivers that would inundate the valley in fertile mud. In addition to being a safer place to live than next to a raging glacial river, the valley was fertile.

I too have been doing a lot of reading up - in preparation for a paper presentation in Chennai next month. Two things. The climate was arid in the Harappan era, but there was also a very wet phase of heavy monsoons up to about the start of the Harappan era and the monsoons even after that used to fill up large lakes in Rajasthan referred to as playas. There are a lot of studies of those playas.

Incidentally people (Witzel) have disputed the idea that the Vedic Saraswati ever reached the sea. It did reach the sea until about 8000 BC. People have argued that "samudra" in the Vedas was "sam"+"udra" which could be "place where the waters meet". Even this is not incompatible for very early (before 6000-7000 BC) dates for the Rig Veda because the monsoons were very heavy from 10000 to 6000 odd years ago in this area and lakes were filling up despite an increasingly arid environment. More likely the Vedas refer to the sea with references to Varuna etc. That makes them old. Old.

[Dipanker]

So Saraswati did not flow through the paleochannel through which Ghaghar/Hakra now flows, rather it was Sutlej?! Wow! This is going to negate a lot of writings/theories floated in the last 20 years or so.

So the question is where did mighty Saraswati river flow, if not in the Ghaghar/Hakra paleochannel? This finding also throws a spanner in the ordering of rivers in Nadi-Stuti.

[A_Gupta]

So Saraswati did not flow through the paleochannel through which Ghaghar/Hakra now flows, rather it was Sutlej?! Wow! This is going to negate a lot of writings/theories floated in the last 20 years or so.

So the question is where did mighty Saraswati river flow, if not in the Ghaghar/Hakra paleochannel? This finding also throws a spanner in the ordering of rivers in Nadi-Stuti.

1. It would take reading of the paper and evidence, but on the face of it, what one can say is that the sediments found in the Ghaghar/Hakra paleochannel came from the same place as (today's?) Sutlej sediments.

2. If the Sutlej left the Ghaghar/Hakra channel 8000 years ago, and what remained was a river largely fed by the monsoon (as it was per this paper during the heyday of Harappa) then it is this river that is the Vedic Saraswati. The Nadi-Stuti has to be less than 8000 years old, that is all.

[A_Gupta]

Incidentally people (Witzel) have disputed the idea that the Vedic Saraswati ever reached the sea. It did reach the sea until about 8000 BC. People have argued that "samudra" in the Vedas was "sam"+"udra" which could be "place where the waters meet". Even this is not incompatible for very early (before 6000-7000 BC) dates for the Rig Veda because the monsoons were very heavy from 10000 to 6000 odd years ago in this area and lakes were filling up despite an increasingly arid environment. More likely the Vedas refer to the sea with references to Varuna etc. That makes them old. Old.

One-hundred oared ships sailed in the "place where the waters meet"
Rg Veda 1.116.5
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01116.htm
Griffiths translation:

5 Ye wrought that hero exploit in the ocean which giveth no support, or hold or station,
What time ye carried Bhujyu to his dwelling, borne in a ship with hundred oars, O Aśvins.

Sanskrit:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv01116.htm

अनारम्भणे तदवीरयेथामनास्थाने अग्रभणे समुद्रे |
यदश्विना ऊहथुर्भुज्युमस्तं शतारित्रां नावमातस्थिवांसम ||

PS:

Incidentally people (Witzel) have disputed the idea that the Vedic Saraswati ever reached the sea.

At least in part because Witzel wants to place the original Saraswati in Afghanistan.

[A_Gupta]

Not sure where to put this, so putting it here.
One of the controversies is over whether Sanskrit was ever a spoken language or not.
Apparently analysis of sentence structure gives some clues.
http://nautil.us/issue/54/the-unspoken/ ... h-sentence

Languages with very simple sentence structure are, for the most part, oral languages. It’s the languages that have a culture of writing, developed over a long span of time, that display a fondness for stacking clauses onto one another to create towering sentences.

Oral languages may avoid pushing the limits of syntax not just because they are bound to speech, but also because they have other ways to express complex meanings. Linguists take great pains to point out that languages with simple sentences erupt with complexity elsewhere: They typically pack many particles of meaning into a single word. For example, the Mohawk word sahonwanhotónkwahse conveys as much meaning as the English sentence “She opened the door for him again.” In English, you need two clauses (one embedded inside the other) to say “He says she’s leaving,” but in Yup’ik, a language spoken in Alaska, you can use a single word, “Ayagnia.” (Ayagniuq, in contrast, means “He says he himself is leaving”; Ayagtuq means, more simply, “He’s leaving.”)

So I wonder if such an analysis can be done for Sanskrit.

[Prem]

Ayagnia= Aayya Gya =Came and left .
This picture worth thousand word for Mother Satluj. Taken may dips in this now dry as dammed at Bhakhra

[shiv]

So I wonder if such an analysis can be done for Sanskrit.

Try this
http://ancientindianwisdom.com/vedas-an ... ance-today

5. The meanings of the words in Rig Veda
To focus on the meanings of the words, we have to go to the padap¢°ha of Rig Veda which displays all the distinct words in each verse distinctly. Rig Veda has about 32,000 distinct words. In this listing, Vibhakti variants of a word agni, such as agnina, agnim etc. are regarded as distinct words. We focus on ascertaining the meanings of nouns and verbs; isolated particles such as cha, api etc., all verbal forms of “to be’, all pronouns are not important.

An important aspect of the Rig Veda is that a small set of root-words, numbering about 600 account for most of the word occurences. A root-word from which all its case variants and number variants are derived. For instance agni, the single root word subsumes all its case and number variants. we aim to fix the meanings for each one of these key words by studying the set of all the mantra-s or verses in which each one occurs and discover the meaning of the word common to all the members of the set. As Sri Aurobindo declares, Veda reveals its own secret by a detailed and sincere study.

A detailed study of the words is in our book “Semantics of Rig Veda’ by R.L. Kashyap, [6] pub. SAKSI (2006).

One cannot fix the meaning of a word in isolation. Any systematic method for assigning meanings to words must recognise the group of closely related words and make distinctions in their meanings. For example, take the key words such as manas, man¤¾ha, medhas, prachetas, praketa, all connected with mental operations and consciousness. In the translations of R.T.H. Griffith, manas is rendered in various ways such as mind, spirit, wisdom etc. manas in the Veda has a fixed meaning.

The man is still alive and I have ordered the book 'Semantics of the Rig Veda"

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9-GJ6a594

[shiv]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-05745-8

The Nd and Sr isotopic composition of sediments from our Dhordo core site in the Great Rann of Kachchh suggests that a large Himalayan or Sub-Himalayan Saraswati-like river may have discharged into the Arabian Sea until 10 ka. However, our study also shows that radiogenic isotope fingerprinting of the GRK sediments is unlikely to detect a gradually drying Saraswati-like river after that time, due to contamination with sediments from the Thar Desert and/or the Indus.

[Nilesh Oak]

So Saraswati did not flow through the paleochannel through which Ghaghar/Hakra now flows, rather it was Sutlej?! Wow! This is going to negate a lot of writings/theories floated in the last 20 years or so.

So the question is where did mighty Saraswati river flow, if not in the Ghaghar/Hakra paleochannel? This finding also throws a spanner in the ordering of rivers in Nadi-Stuti.

1. It would take reading of the paper and evidence, but on the face of it, what one can say is that the sediments found in the Ghaghar/Hakra paleochannel came from the same place as (today's?) Sutlej sediments.

2. If the Sutlej left the Ghaghar/Hakra channel 8000 years ago, and what remained was a river largely fed by the monsoon (as it was per this paper during the heyday of Harappa) then it is this river that is the Vedic Saraswati. The Nadi-Stuti has to be less than 8000 years old, that is all.

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