Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Pulikeshi
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 18 Dec 2017 03:32

Book of the Velves

According to the Book of Veles, in the 10th century BC ("thirteen hundred years before Ermanaric"), pre-Slavic tribes lived in the "land of seven rivers beyond the sea" (possibly corresponding to Semirechye, southeastern Kazakhstan). The book describes the migration of the Slavs through Syria and eventually into the Carpathian mountains, during the course of which they were briefly enslaved by the king "Nabsur" (Nabonassar?). They settled in the Carpathian mountains in the 5th century BC ("fifteen hundred years before Dir"). Several centuries appear to pass without much commotion. The 4th century is described in some detail: during this time the Slavs fought a number of wars with the Goths, Huns, Greeks, and Romans. Many references to Ermanaric and his relatives are present (placing this section of Book of Veles in the same historical context as the story of Jonakr's sons, referenced in numerous European legends and sagas). The Slavs eventually emerged victorious. The period of the 5th to 9th centuries is described briefly; Khazars and Bulgars are mentioned.


The hypothesis of OIT is not of ONE migration - but that there were repeated migrations Westward and inconsequential conquests Eastward post-facto:

1. Sumerians and other Mesopotamians talkin of knowledge coming from the east - myth carried on to the three 'wise guys'' Maggi for infant jesus....
2. That the route was by both land and sea - the Middle East was more accessible by sea than by land due to not only geographic and climate related reasons, but also due to warring tribes and human greed and lawlessness in the badlands.
3. The history of migrations of the Dom, Lom and Roma - this is an area that GoI needs to pick up as there is lot of political benefits in doing so... but for this topic, these migrations are more recent sometimes in the late medieval period and should be documented and researched more than it has been...
4. These multiple migrations/conquests have occurred without the current religious, political and nationalistic overtones that has hindered real academic research. For example if a person from Patna migrates to Chennai or to Peshawar that is not a migration, but a resettlement in the Indian sub-continent. Whereas if the Iranians say they migrated from many lands, they are talking not or one person or one place, but having come from multiple places in droves to populate Iran. When the Slavs talk about migration, they are taking about people moving in droves alon earlier migrations that influenced the Greeks later.... see for example the close relation between the Greek myths and the Slavic myths. Another note here is the difference between the Slav/Greek and the Indian. For example Varuna (Orunos) is not castrated, etc. in the Indian version (please correct if there is some account of this that I am not familiar with...) However, there is reference to Indra having usurped power from him but need to juggle my brain/notes to get to it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 08:01

Pulikeshi wrote:3. My Polish friends often talk of the Kiev Pantheon - Perun, Dazbog, Veles, Horz, Svarog, etc... There has been no serious work I have come across tracing their relationship to Indra and the Hindu Panteon.


There is _some_ work.

Perun is the god of thunder and lightning and has a Vedic equivalent in Parjanya.
Dazbog: Don't know who Dazbog might be but "bog" is derived from the word "bhagya" (gift?) - meaning God in other words leading to words like bhagwan. There are eastern European "Bielobog" (white god) (also Bielorussia - white Russia) and charobog (black god) and Behistun (Iran) = Bhagastana

Here's a special for you Pulikeshi: When you look at the names Bielobog (white god) and take bog as bhagwan - you are left with bielo (white) which sounds like "bili" (Kannada-white) or "vellai" (Tamil -white)

Charobog also sounds like Kari-god but that said "char" as in charcoal is also black

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ricky_v » 18 Dec 2017 12:47

Quoting a passage from translated vendidad,are these names recognisable?
"They cried about, their minds wavered to and fro,Angra Mainyu the deadly, the daeva of daevas,Indra the daeva,Sauru the daeva, Naunghaitya the daeva,Taurvi and Zairi, Aeshma of the murderous spear, Akatasha the daeva,winter made by the daevas, the deceeiving,unsseing death,Zaurva, baneful to the fathers, Buiti the daeva, Driwi the daeva,Daiwi the daeva,Kasvi the daeva, Paitisha, the most daeva like among the daevas."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 13:26

^^whose translation?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ricky_v » 18 Dec 2017 15:11

james darmester

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 20:08

ricky_v wrote:james darmester

I would like a link please to compare with Jatindra Mohan Chatterjee because the text you have quoted does not appear in the downloadable text version of Darmester's "Full text of the Zend Avesta" on archive.org
https://archive.org/stream/zendavesta02 ... m_djvu.txt

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 20:26

ricky_v wrote:Quoting a passage from translated vendidad,are these names recognisable?
"They cried about, their minds wavered to and fro,Angra Mainyu the deadly, the daeva of daevas,Indra the daeva,Sauru the daeva, Naunghaitya the daeva,Taurvi and Zairi, Aeshma of the murderous spear, Akatasha the daeva,winter made by the daevas, the deceeiving,unsseing death,Zaurva, baneful to the fathers, Buiti the daeva, Driwi the daeva,Daiwi the daeva,Kasvi the daeva, Paitisha, the most daeva like among the daevas."

OK its here
http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd19sbe.htm
No. I can find no link to connect with Vedic names

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 19 Dec 2017 07:32

Dipanker wrote:My assumption is wrong or not can be proved/disproved once I have the the equations to compute the RA's and DEC w.r.t time and then I can run a simulation for a period of 26,000 years. I did think about the boundary conditions in the change of direction of rotational axis in my assumption/hypothesis.

Anyway as soon as I get hold of the equations, I will have the answer and I will post the results here! So far I am leaning towards my hypothesis being right.


Marking this post: Dec. 16 2017, 04:28 PM. I'm curious to see how long it takes you to get your answer and prove your hypothesis. Or whether you do it at all. As requested, please also post your math, so we can see the source of any potential differences.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 19 Dec 2017 08:55

sudarshan wrote:
Dipanker wrote:My assumption is wrong or not can be proved/disproved once I have the the equations to compute the RA's and DEC w.r.t time and then I can run a simulation for a period of 26,000 years. I did think about the boundary conditions in the change of direction of rotational axis in my assumption/hypothesis.

Anyway as soon as I get hold of the equations, I will have the answer and I will post the results here! So far I am leaning towards my hypothesis being right.


Marking this post: Dec. 16 2017, 04:28 PM. I'm curious to see how long it takes you to get your answer and prove your hypothesis. Or whether you do it at all. As requested, please also post your math, so we can see the source of any potential differences.


It's in the pipeline, may take couple of weeks or less or more. Once I have the answers, I will post it here.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 21 Dec 2017 07:57

From tomorrow - for 3 days is the Swadeshi Indology conference by Rajiv Malhotra's Infinity foundation. I am presenting a paper on AIT bashing. Nilesh Oak will be there and I am also in a panel discussion with stalwarts like Nilesh himself, Shrikant Talageri, Premendra Priyadarshi, Gyaneshwar Chaubey (genetics) - chaired by The Rajiv Malhotra

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 21 Dec 2017 08:09

Conference information handout with paper abstracts
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ypqWo ... BN4pMMI_91

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 21 Dec 2017 09:05

Good luck! Shiv, Nilesh and others presenting...
If the proceedings are recorded please publish so all could benefit...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Dec 2017 09:42

Hi Shiv, Nilesh, et al:

All the best! The event looks solid

Shiv: is it too late to register now? I was busy with work and am not able to register for the event. Do you know if its possible to visit without registration?

Thanks

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 21 Dec 2017 10:34

shiv wrote:Conference information handout with paper abstracts
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ypqWo ... BN4pMMI_91


Great ! I guess we to wait for videos to come out. Please remind RM about Kaushal Guru and his contribution in starting the awareness about Indian historical persepctive

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 22 Dec 2017 15:03

by Dr. Shiv
istorywalas says "OK - prove that a mountain with a life saving herb was carried by a flying monkey"

The minute you try to come with an explanation you are screwed. You might as well take the square rod in the historywala's hand and shove it up your own backside because you have fallen into his trap by trying to give an explanation of a narrative of a past event on his terms using things that you feel should convince him. This is a huge huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge mistake being made by Hindus with colonized minds


Indians have a tendency to create myth out of facts. 1000 years from now Rajnikanth will became a super god who caught bullets with teeth. Tendulkar hit ball to space, etc

There was a person in 1700s named Dip Singh. Guru Gobind Singh told him to only keep on making the copies of Guru Granth Sahib and keep distributing them. He did this fron 1699 till 1760s., at that time Abdali Invaded and occupied Golden Temple. So baba Dip Singh called all Sikhs and made a rag tag army of peasants. He swore that he will celebrate Diwali inside Golden Temple. About 2 kms from Golden Temple he was wounded on his neck that he supported with his left hand and continued fighting till he attained martyrdom close to Golden Temple fulfilling his promise.

Now in 2017 people believe that his head was totally cut off and he picked up his head with left hand and continued fighting. When i tell that even Sikh Gurus never performed miracles why would a sikh perform a miracle. People argue senselessly and even become very aggressive.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 22 Dec 2017 15:47

Gentlemen at the conference, whatever else you do, please ensure that the videos are Youtubed. Looking forward very much to watching and listening to you all!

Sandeep paaji, what to do now, we are like that onlee... But you do have my sympathies. That observation is a very pertinent one, in any case. Truth can only be remembered in its exaggeration.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 22 Dec 2017 18:00

SBajwa wrote:
There was a person in 1700s named Dip Singh. Guru Gobind Singh told him to only keep on making the copies of Guru Granth Sahib and keep distributing them. He did this fron 1699 till 1760s., at that time Abdali Invaded and occupied Golden Temple. So baba Dip Singh called all Sikhs and made a rag tag army of peasants. He swore that he will celebrate Diwali inside Golden Temple. About 2 kms from Golden Temple he was wounded on his neck that he supported with his left hand and continued fighting till he attained martyrdom close to Golden Temple fulfilling his promise.

Now in 2017 people believe that his head was totally cut off and he picked up his head with left hand and continued fighting. When i tell that even Sikh Gurus never performed miracles why would a sikh perform a miracle. People argue senselessly and even become very aggressive.


I recall reading about a mosque in Afghanistan commemorating a Ghazi whose enthusiasm for slaughtering infidels was such that he fought on after losing his head, until the infidels were vanquished.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby pralay » 22 Dec 2017 19:58

SBajwa wrote:Indians have a tendency to create myth out of facts. 1000 years from now Rajnikanth will became a super god who caught bullets with teeth. Tendulkar hit ball to space, etc.

Not just Indians, its applies to people all over the world and of all religions, communities and faith.
History of Kings is painstakingly decorated so much with miracles and superhuman deeds(sometimes for just spicing their stories, sometimes out of their devotion and pride) that people have lost track of the true history and the stories now contain so much bs that no wonder they are called myths.

We can take a simple example of sword of Great King Shivaji who lived just 4 centuries ago, even though his sword was purchased from a Portuguese trader, there were stories that goddess Bhavani herself gave it to him, and most of the books and old cinemas had depicted so and many people still believe so even though the story is debunked hard.

If it can happen to just 4 centuries old history, its better not said about history of people which existed thousands of years ago.

So historians, indologists and OIT folks should not fall in trap of trying conclude that the miracles/myths part is true because the existence of the Kings and their deeds is proven.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gus » 22 Dec 2017 20:39

Good luck Shiv and all. Unfortunately not in Chennai to attend.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 22 Dec 2017 22:54

Shiv, Nilesh, wish I could be there to see your presentations. I look forward to youtube videos. All the best.

If you meet Dr. Gyaneshwar Chaubey could you please ask him one thing for me?

He says (in a communication reported by Aravindan Neelakantan here: https://swarajyamag.com/culture/here-we ... me-as-well )

‘M780 is a marker that originated in India’ and ‘phylogentically it is not nested in any other R1a branch present in the world’. In other words, he concludes, ‘M780 doesn't show Central Asian or Middle Eastern or European variants as ancestral to it’.


Can you please ask about his basis for this conclusion? The reason I ask is that, according to this R1 haplotype tree from Underhill et al 2014:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450/figures/1

M780 falls under successive branches of the R1 tree, Z95/Z93/M417/M17 etc.

Also according to Underhill, the place of origin of the Z93 branch ( which is , according to him, ancestral to M780) remains unknown.

Others such as Martin Richards (AIT proponent) claim that

The derived R1a-Z93 and the further derived R1a-Z94 subclades harbour the bulk of Central and South Asian R1a lineages [55, 58], as well as including some Russian and European lineages


If Dr. Chaubey has any conclusive data regarding exclusively Indian origin of M780, and/or its not being nested within any Central Asian or European R1 clade, could you please ask him to share? Particularly important because its expansion correlates with mature phase of the Indus-Saraswati civilization, ~4-4.5 kya. If it can be shown that M780 and its subclades are of Indian origin, a major argument of the people who use R1a expansions to claim "migration from patriarchal, pastoralist, Central Asian societies coincident with IVC downfall" goes phut.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2017 06:26

Turned out that Chaubey only appeared briefly on a flaky Skype connection

PS quality of some papers was very high & there is hope for India

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 24 Dec 2017 07:58

Who Built The Indus Valley Civilization

Our man Tony at it again! Is this prep work for outing some great new find on DNA they are sitting on that proves R1a people did not create Indus Valley.... This whole Harvard - CCMB silliness of ASI and ANI stinks of project neo-AIT to me :evil:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Dec 2017 13:51

It was great to meet Shiv, Murugan & Nilesh yesterday. You guys rocked!

The energy & quality of papers at SI-3 was amazing! Swadeshi Indology is truly coming of age. And we have barely scratched the surface of the topics to be explored.

***

The timing of Tony Joseph's article is curious. Happens to coincide with SI-3 conference. His premature eja**** on this topic are laughable. Why not just the results come out & then lets talk? He is getting fidgety

Even the implications of the different possible findings are wrong. For example: if say, no R1a is found, it does not mean that Harappans did not have R1a. AOE =/= EOA. We have only tested 4 samples. Plus, Tony conveniently assigns 1 gene to 1 language! R1a = Sanskrit, O2a = Mundari etc - this is a joke of the highest order :rotfl:

Last but not the least, he says "we are all migrants" & slyly sneaks in that some of our genes came from the Steppes! Him calling for "we're all migrants & lets live in peace" would be laudable (& not laughable) had it come from anyone other than the AIT/Missionary camp, whose primary purpose was to divide India into North vs South

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2017 21:22

^^^ Tony Joseph lists himself as an atheist :) AFAIK, Tilak, Savarkar thought AIT was correct, and were hardly India-divisionists. Let's keep religion and politics out of this to the extent possible. IMO, even if all four skeletons from Rakhigarhi show R1a, the Dravidian movement will not wither away, and nor will the missionary movement; only a better politics and better social movements will.

IMO, the Vasant Shinde-Seoul University-Cambridge University-Harvard University combine haven't come up with anything useful so far because the skeletons were excavated in 2014 and all through the last two years a publication has been promised, but not materialized. Recovering useful DNA from those skeletons is probably proving much harder than they had hoped. This perpetual delay has led to conspiracy theories on various sites on the Internet, claiming that the Rakhigarhi aDNA results are unfavorable to the ruling party in India and hence have been squelched (politics intrudes again! I suppose the conspiracy theorists imagine PM Modi and his Cabinet going over Rakhigarhi aDNA results and deciding to classify them as top-secret.)

IMO Rakhigarhi aDNA is like US victory in Afghanistan, always promised to be just around the corner. I would be very happy to be proven wrong. Let us fight bad science (e.g., the one gene per language), and encourage the good and let the results fall where they may.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Dec 2017 00:08

Arun: you know as well as I do, that AIT itself was identity/religion/race motivated. And it continues to play havoc in TN. So, its important to call out agendas wherever needed. The gloves came off long time ago.

Agree with you that we need to debunk the bad science as well.

I think, by internet, you mean the Eurogenes blog run by Davidski. He has his own agenda, that's very transparent. aDNA from Rakhigiri, I agree, has been a mirage. When I met Shiv, he asked me not to get our hopes high about its publication. We didn't get the time to discuss why he thought so.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Dec 2017 00:38

^^^ Davidski is one place. There were a few others that I encountered, not that I'm going to go searching for them.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2017 11:44

It was great meeting Nilesh Oak, Murugan with whom I shared snoring sessions and lessons in a shared room, Prem and finally Raja Ram (after the meet)

The reasons I feel that Rakhigarhi will give us nothing much are as follows
    1. I would be very surprised if they actually got useful DNA from there. I mean complete identifiable strands. If there is doubt,or contamination from researcher's DNA or other issue the damn thing will have to be sent to spme other center for reverification which explains the delays
    2. DNA from one individual may mean nothing in terms of Rakhigarhi population. He could have been a traveller in an area that was a trading zone
    3.Evidence is insurmountably mounting from various sources that actual Vedic dates pre-date Rakhigarhi by several thousand years. Better start getting our heads round that.
    4 Rakhigarhi DNA, while interesting in itself may or may not be linked to migration but it definitely CANNOT be linked to language. This is a critical point because we have all forgotten that AIT is not about invasion. It is about language. You cannot fix language by genes. Even if you prove 400% that Rakhigarhi man came straight from steppe, you cannot prove he brought language with him

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 25 Dec 2017 13:04

Shiv's presentation and speech as panelist was like "all guns blazing". Immediate applause for him especially from youngsters and go-getter types.

Prem Kumar is very learned, articulate and no-nonsense/"will not tolerate any sh*t" kinda gentleman, prem... prem nam hai mera. I need to imbibe such qualities from him.

Nilesh was, as always, to the point. His ability to see various facets of subjects and bring them to light in a most lucid way is outstanding.

Main ek chhota bachchha but long association with BRF helped in a big way.

***
Memorable three days... and disturbed nights for someone.
That type of snoring is called some kind of sleep apnea... acoording to doctor. in Gujarati it is called Naskora.

***

Pl, pl, pl read Rajivjis all the books - Being Different, Breaking India, Indra's Net, Invading the Sacreds, Battle for Sanskrit. Watch his videos on utube.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby wig » 25 Dec 2017 13:35

could any links be provided so that we can view the presentations?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2017 14:29

Murugan is chhota baccha my left ball.

His niche interest in numismatcs and knowledge of Brahmi & other scripts makes him the only person to have physical proof (coins) linking common people of deep south with rest of India from over 2000 years ago & pooping all over separate race and subjugation mythology. This included proof that the script went north from Tamil Nadu.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2017 14:31

wig wrote:could any links be provided so that we can view the presentations?

All will appear in due course

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 25 Dec 2017 15:35

Murugan is chhota baccha my left ball.


Ayyayo..

Dravideshwara ...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2017 17:04

In a word the meeting was fantastic. The quality of papers and research was very high. I was enthused by the positivity and see hope for the nation - especially with the involvement of young people.

Basically the topics covered such a broad area that I think we on BRF are really behind times. We are only 2 cm ahead of Josy Joseph. In terms of the weight of academic proof AIT is dead. I do think BR needs to move on an address more important issues that reversing AIT and proving OIT.

What need work is the massive effort and funding that has gone into convincing the illiterate poor in Tamil Nadu that they are a subjugated race while Aryans came from the North. The fact that it is bullshit is perfectly well known in Tamil Nadu but a curious mixture of politics and Church funding ensures that race is being used to Chritianize Tamil Nadu. This is being augmented by a vicious attack on Hindus by the like of Pollck etc.

I do believe we need to get out of this 4-5 year old mode of arguing against AIT. No amount of proof can reverse the damage done. AIT is dead - we need to talk about what is happening in Tamil Nadu as a result of AIT. This entire series of threads, while being very useful and greatly informative was also filled with vicious trolls. IMOP we need to lock it up and look at the "on the ground" situation which is as important, if not more important than Doklam or Mdi achievemnets

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 25 Dec 2017 21:14

shiv wrote:In a word the meeting was fantastic. The quality of papers and research was very high. I was enthused by the positivity and see hope for the nation - especially with the involvement of young people.

Basically the topics covered such a broad area that I think we on BRF are really behind times. We are only 2 cm ahead of Josy Joseph. In terms of the weight of academic proof AIT is dead. I do think BR needs to move on an address more important issues that reversing AIT and proving OIT.

What need work is the massive effort and funding that has gone into convincing the illiterate poor in Tamil Nadu that they are a subjugated race while Aryans came from the North. The fact that it is bullshit is perfectly well known in Tamil Nadu but a curious mixture of politics and Church funding ensures that race is being used to Chritianize Tamil Nadu. This is being augmented by a vicious attack on Hindus by the like of Pollck etc.

I do believe we need to get out of this 4-5 year old mode of arguing against AIT. No amount of proof can reverse the damage done. AIT is dead - we need to talk about what is happening in Tamil Nadu as a result of AIT. This entire series of threads, while being very useful and greatly informative was also filled with vicious trolls. IMOP we need to lock it up and look at the "on the ground" situation which is as important, if not more important than Doklam or Mdi achievemnets


Hear, hear. Close family members succumbed to this Christianization years ago, so it hits very close to home. Congrats to you, Nilesh, Murugan, et. al in any case.

pralay wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Indians have a tendency to create myth out of facts. 1000 years from now Rajnikanth will became a super god who caught bullets with teeth. Tendulkar hit ball to space, etc.

Not just Indians, its applies to people all over the world and of all religions, communities and faith.
History of Kings is painstakingly decorated so much with miracles and superhuman deeds(sometimes for just spicing their stories, sometimes out of their devotion and pride) that people have lost track of the true history and the stories now contain so much bs that no wonder they are called myths.

We can take a simple example of sword of Great King Shivaji who lived just 4 centuries ago, even though his sword was purchased from a Portuguese trader, there were stories that goddess Bhavani herself gave it to him, and most of the books and old cinemas had depicted so and many people still believe so even though the story is debunked hard.

If it can happen to just 4 centuries old history, its better not said about history of people which existed thousands of years ago.

So historians, indologists and OIT folks should not fall in trap of trying conclude that the miracles/myths part is true because the existence of the Kings and their deeds is proven.


You don't even need to go back 4 centuries. According to Godse's story, Gandhi, after he was shot, said something like "aah" before expiring. But the popular story is that Gandhi said "Hey Ram," and thus attained moksha. I am much more inclined to believe the former version. The name of Ram is not something which lightly jumps to the tongue in one's dying moments.

On the topic of swords, Attila the Hun is supposed to have found and used the sword of Mars. These kinds of legends do abound all over the world, and some salt is called for before ingesting them.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Dec 2017 21:17

Anil Kumar Suri has a good rejoinder to Tony Joseph:
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/so-what ... -migration

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SaiK » 26 Dec 2017 02:21

Very good read indeed. Metallurgy link nails it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2017 07:45

A_Gupta wrote:Anil Kumar Suri has a good rejoinder to Tony Joseph:
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/so-what ... -migration

Posted a comment
As I see it, from my own research. presented in part at the Swadeshi Indology conference in Chennai, as well as diligent research from a host of others - it is beginning to appear to me that seeking a "Vedic civilization" in the Indus Valley/Harappa is probably going to be fruitless because there are so many pointers towards the "Vedic era" being closer to 10,000 years ago rather than 3500 years ago. So don't hold your breath or expect any Vedic evidence from a date that was "only yesterday" so to speak.


As for R1A - the picture is mixed. R1A1a1 (M17) did originate in Western India (Gujarat area) and went all the way to Poland. A further mutation in Poland 5000 years ago never came back to India. The Z93 clade of R1 was reported as originating "near Iran". Well guess what is "near Iran"? Western India - which includes modern Pakistan and Souther Afghanistan are all "near Iran"



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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2017 19:08

Among others I met, at the conference Shrikant Talageri - with whom I built up a cheerful/humorous relationship. Can't speak of our discussions in public but it had nothing to do with Indology. Also met Prof Kannan a Sanskrit prof deeply involved with Rajiv Malhotra. I met an elderly man whom I think is the Kalyanraman of "bharatkalya97" blogspot

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2017 19:30

What we non Tamil people and Macaulayized tamilians may not know is that what is called "Tamil Sangam literature" dates from 3rd Century BC. Speaker after speaker emphasized the deep links of ancient Tamil literature with the Vedas and Vedic culture all of which is sought to be obfuscated and denied by the usual culprits. The fact that Tamil is incomprehensible to most Indians and the people of the north, west and east of India have been the most deeply involved with the Mughal invasions and the later Lutyenite secularization of history has simply ignored and thrown Tamil history and south Indian history in general into the Bermuda triangle.

What has aided this egregious travesty is the fact that the British and the Europeans were primarily interested in the north and the areas of the so called Indo-European languages and had discarded the south as a heathen bunch very early on. With language being equated with "nation" in Europe a connection with language in India and tallfairtightasses in Afghanistan/Pakistan was considered Ok by the Europeans while the south was the source of heathen polytheistic idol worship.

The deep ignorance of the south even though the people of the south have been totally integrated with India forever now reflects more in northern Indian ignorance of the south rather than southern Indian ignorance of the north - with which people of the south feel kinship because of Vedic cultural roots - the Himalayas, Ganga, Kashi etc. Add to that ignorant northern myths about the name "Ravana" or "Ravanan" being used in Tamil Nadu - as embodiment of an anti-India, anti Hindu, anti Rama narrative is moorkhta of the highest order. Ravana was a highly accomplished scholar and Samavedi a fact that has been forgotten by the colonized. Ravana too, a bad guy, was part of our culture.

The South and its deep connections with the rest of India need to be highlighted even as breaking India forces try and encourage fake narratives of false Tamil pride as separate from India and as a race from "Lemuria"

There is a huge failure of history in India that goes far beyond mere teaching of Mughal and British history

Look at the irony here. For the best part of a decade on BRF we have broken our heads over AIT which proposes an invasion and the composition of the last Vedas around 800 BC. And guess what? if we believe this story we also have to believe that in the 500 years after the Vedas were composed - between 800 BC and 300 BC - Vedic culture from its Punjab origin had already deeply infiltrated into Tamil nadu and was being recorded in Tamil literature. I am not sure how we as a people leave our brains behind when we read history given to us by our white masters.We simply have not devoted the required scholarship while we get into catfights with morons like that Tony Joseph guy

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chanakyaa » 26 Dec 2017 22:07

Looks like the third conference went very well. Just trying to understand the closed door nature format of the conference. Is the goal to minimize too-many-chefs-in-kitchen effect so the Indic research moves forward constructively? That would make sense. Too many paid experts ready to throw a wrench in good work done enthusiasts with little monetary rewards. Definitely feel Sastryji's pain. For all these efforts to succeed and grow, taking the debate and research in easy to understand format (books, magazine, print and digital, movies, documentaries) to the masses is the way to go. Just my non-Aryan 2 paisa...


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