Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 21 Apr 2018 22:16


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 21 Apr 2018 22:36

Supratik wrote:This may help you guys.

https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/what-reic ... came-to-be


This is the kind of plain-language summary I was looking for. Thanks.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 22 Apr 2018 03:16

Talking about language AIT Ayatollahism

The Sound of the Avestan Language (Vendidad:The Earth) sounds familiar in tone and rhythm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPyRu7fLoFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnjSAPye6d8
THis is like Japji Sahib
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWnAyQKQqFo


And here is English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeW1eV7Oc5A

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Apr 2018 05:19

Good Stuff, Dr. Shiv.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2018 07:42

Prem wrote:Talking about language AIT Ayatollahism

The Sound of the Avestan Language (Vendidad:The Earth) sounds familiar in tone and rhythm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPyRu7fLoFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnjSAPye6d8
THis is like Japji Sahib
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWnAyQKQqFo


And here is English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeW1eV7Oc5A


Second one is fake - I have seen that channel before.

Also I must repeat: the name "Avestan language' is fake, It is a cooked up language and at least we should stop using it so we stop giving traction to fake language theories that "created" Avestan to cook up how language "travelled" from somewhere to India

This is more like the genuine Parsi stuff:
https://youtu.be/fHXKITid2jk

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2018 08:13

Nilesh Oak wrote:Good Stuff, Dr. Shiv.

Thanks Nilesh. I expect it to appear on the biorixiv site soon.

I think 90% of Indians who learn about Aryan "invasion" or "migration" miss the woods for the trees. They fret about the migration part - which is unimportant. What led to the rewriting of our history was the claim that the language came to India from somewhere. It was entirety cookery by linguists. They cooked up a a route of spread and cooked up Avestan and ensured that all Indian objections were dismissed and even western refs that go against all this were simply ignored.

It is not about people migration. It is about language. Even Vagheesh has been primed to make the same arguments. "Language has to move with people. We show that people moved, ergo the language went" There are huge gaps in that story that need to be shown up.

If you cherry pick Vedas for words like "dasyu" and mistranslate them, or add non existent words to translations like David Anthony (and even Max Muller for that matter) did - it means that you are relying on references from those texts. If you rely on the texts then you cannot ignore other refs like Saraswati and archaeoastronomy. Take the whole or reject it altogether. Don't pick up only what you think you like.

Ultimately it boils down to western academic chicanery who don't want to be shown up. Not helped one bit by Indian sepoys who will work under goras for years before they figure out that something is wrong.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agasthi » 22 Apr 2018 19:53

I'm no expert but IMHO, any genetic study that seeks to establish indian ancestry is flawed when they seek gene samples by caste. The agenda has already been decided and all is left is to cherry pick data and force fitting the data to seek the pre-decided result. Aryan supremacy has just donned a lab coat instead of a Nazi uniform. Claiming that some "Aryan" invaders/migrants composed the Vedas is like saying Ramcharitmanas was composed by Mughals.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2018 20:47

^Can I cross post this beautifully worded statement on Twitter?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 22 Apr 2018 22:43

Agasthi, that statement needs to be blasted out on Twitter. Kindly do the honours and let us know your handle, or let shiv do it... and we'll all retweet the bytes out of it...

Beautifully worded.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agasthi » 23 Apr 2018 04:42

I'm not on Twitter, please feel free to use the post or modify it as well!

I just found it odd that highly educated people like geneticists don't seem much different from a Mayawati or Ramadoss of PMK. At least to me there seems to be intense focus on getting gene samples from Brahmins or SC/ST's. And, when all of this reeks so much of an agenda, who is verifying that this gene sample is from a Brahmin or from a Dalit. How do they even collect gene samples? Do these scientists just go to people and say "Are you a Brahmin/dalit? If yes, Can I collect your blood? Is this even legal? To me this just reeks of caste politics.

I'm from the deep south and as per the 'gnanis' I'm supposed to be 40% ANI and 60% ASI. Am I a dravidian or an aryan? If a specific individual like Mr. Kauranidhi were to be tested tomorrow and if found that he is 50% ASI and 50% ANI, what is he then? :rotfl:


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2018 09:01

JE Menon wrote:Agasthi, that statement needs to be blasted out on Twitter. Kindly do the honours and let us know your handle, or let shiv do it... and we'll all retweet the bytes out of it...

Beautifully worded.
Two Tweets (Not Two teats)
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/988233223539900416
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/988258373354209280

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agasthi » 23 Apr 2018 10:45

shiv wrote:
JE Menon wrote:Agasthi, that statement needs to be blasted out on Twitter. Kindly do the honours and let us know your handle, or let shiv do it... and we'll all retweet the bytes out of it...

Beautifully worded.
Two Tweets (Not Two teats)
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/988233223539900416
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/988258373354209280


Thanks Shiv and JE Menon! Wow, goosebumps all over. I'm on TV y'all :D

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2018 19:24

My response to the biorxiv paper on FB. Please share. Actually I need to do something more detailed than this..
https://www.facebook.com/shivsas3/posts ... 1583820011

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 00:41

Comment on my blog:
" tim drake said...

"It is likely is that a hypothetical Punjab_N population from even before agriculture would have been related to the Iran_N people, somewhere along a cline between Iran_N in Iran (whose aDNA has been found) and peoples in India's interior" -- Already left a similar comment at another blog but in the admixture plot present in page 166 of the supplementary text of pre-print, the supposedly isolated Andamanese ONGE has a decent % (~25% to my naked eye) of Iran_N like ancestry (represented by teal color). How is this even possible if only the yellow component is supposed to be present in the ONGE ?"


Any comments?

PS: I don't see that now, perhaps the supplementary material has had a revision?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chanakyaa » 24 Apr 2018 05:17

Shiv saar, as always great posts (and educational). Sorry, Arun saar for interrupting your asking technical question.

Since this area was foreign to me, it took some time, but I'm slowly getting up to speed on the genetics related technical aspects. More I read about papers and see how the enemy puts up mountain of fancy research (now "genetics" and I'm from Harvard so you should believe me), have lot of appreciation for what we are up against especially kudos to those (BRF and outside) who are fighting with limited resources.

Noticed something very strange, not in the papers but about the author(s) and timing. Leading authors of two papers "The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia" (2018) and "Reconstructing Indian population history" (2009) are David Reich (US) and Nick Patterson (UK).

This Nick Patterson, character, is interesting. Most of his early life, Nick Patterson worked in the intelligence and national security departments of UK govt. code-breaking for British agency that unscrambles intercepted messages and encrypts clandestine communications. Then he moved on to US to do something similar. Then he worked for a hedge fund and now unscrambling ancestory of South Asians. Putting together research papers can be time consuming, hectic, and intellectually burdensome. Why is former intelligence code-breaker interested in deciphering genetic history of Indians?
Nick Patterson
(NYT) A Cryptologist Takes a Crack at Deciphering DNA’s Deep Secrets

If you look at the list of David Reich paper at https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/publications (start backwards from 1998), you will find all sorts of genetics related paper about cancer, difference between africans etc etc. Out of nowhere "Reconstructing Indian population history" paper appears in 2009 especially decoding genes of alleged Upper Cast Brahmins and Dravidians, really??. Out of five authors of this paper (David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price, and Lalji Singh), two are Indians and the 3rd one "Price" also has all unrelated papers listed against him compared to South Asian genetics.

Not that I was looking for an angle, but the level of interest is little odd.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2018 07:04

A_Gupta wrote:Comment on my blog:
" tim drake said...

"It is likely is that a hypothetical Punjab_N population from even before agriculture would have been related to the Iran_N people, somewhere along a cline between Iran_N in Iran (whose aDNA has been found) and peoples in India's interior" -- Already left a similar comment at another blog but in the admixture plot present in page 166 of the supplementary text of pre-print, the supposedly isolated Andamanese ONGE has a decent % (~25% to my naked eye) of Iran_N like ancestry (represented by teal color). How is this even possible if only the yellow component is supposed to be present in the ONGE ?"


Any comments?

PS: I don't see that now, perhaps the supplementary material has had a revision?

I have the original suppl material downloaded. Let me look
OK here you go
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 08:26

^^^ Thanks, Shiv! I think I suffered from an optical illusion earlier today I thought the Onge and Mala bars were of equal length and entirely yellow.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2018 08:47

chanakyaa wrote:Shiv saar, as always great posts (and educational). Sorry, Arun saar for interrupting your asking technical question.

Since this area was foreign to me, it took some time, but I'm slowly getting up to speed on the genetics related technical aspects. More I read about papers and see how the enemy puts up mountain of fancy research (now "genetics" and I'm from Harvard so you should believe me), have lot of appreciation for what we are up against especially kudos to those (BRF and outside) who are fighting with limited resources.

Noticed something very strange, not in the papers but about the author(s) and timing. Leading authors of two papers "The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia" (2018) and "Reconstructing Indian population history" (2009) are David Reich (US) and Nick Patterson (UK).

This Nick Patterson, character, is interesting. Most of his early life, Nick Patterson worked in the intelligence and national security departments of UK govt. code-breaking for British agency that unscrambles intercepted messages and encrypts clandestine communications. Then he moved on to US to do something similar. Then he worked for a hedge fund and now unscrambling ancestory of South Asians. Putting together research papers can be time consuming, hectic, and intellectually burdensome. Why is former intelligence code-breaker interested in deciphering genetic history of Indians?
Nick Patterson
(NYT) A Cryptologist Takes a Crack at Deciphering DNA’s Deep Secrets

If you look at the list of David Reich paper at https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/publications (start backwards from 1998), you will find all sorts of genetics related paper about cancer, difference between africans etc etc. Out of nowhere "Reconstructing Indian population history" paper appears in 2009 especially decoding genes of alleged Upper Cast Brahmins and Dravidians, really??. Out of five authors of this paper (David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price, and Lalji Singh), two are Indians and the 3rd one "Price" also has all unrelated papers listed against him compared to South Asian genetics.

Not that I was looking for an angle, but the level of interest is little odd.


I came across a new phrase Biocolonialism in a book review of David Reich new book "Who we are" in the journal Science. 20 April 2018 issue.

I think its more appropriate to call it "Gene Colonialism".

This the new mantra to keep us Indians down

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 09:05

^^^ Technical question: "ADMIXTURE results, with the colors of teal, orange, green and yellow representing ancestry maximized in Iranian agriculturalists from the Zagros, agriculturalists from Anatolia, HGs from Neolithic west Siberia, and HGs from South Asia, respectively." -- what is the "residue" of each of these? What fraction is left unexplained?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 09:10

chanakyaa wrote:
Not that I was looking for an angle, but the level of interest is little odd.


A different angle: Assume that Rakhigarhi results exist, and what is taking time is all the analysis that is going on.

Now, read this:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=10211

Quoting a relevant portion:

Keating’s insider account of what happened makes clear that the true story is that the BICEP2 telescope, because of the way it was designed (sensitive to only one part of the sky at one frequency), was never capable of distinguishing primordial gravitational waves from dust. They were in hot competition with the Planck satellite collaboration, which did have the capabilities needed to distinguish the signal they were seeing from dust, and was generally assumed to be the experiment with the best chance of seeing primordial gravitational waves. BICEP2 could have released its data, making clear that it might be primordial gravitational waves or it might be dust, that Planck would need to weigh in to decide. This would have made a splash, but probably not a front-page one, and if the gravitational wave signal was real, Planck would have shared in the glory of identifying it.

Instead of behaving responsibly, the BICEP2 collaboration found arguments to convince themselves that the dust could not be a problem, arguments which included scraping data off a slide of a preliminary Planck result presented at a conference (while, it seems, misunderstanding the significance of the data in that slide). Keating gives a very defensive explanation of how this happened, claiming that he was well aware of the danger that the signal was just dust. About Planck, he writes

We desperately tried to work with the Planck team, while being careful not to tip them off as to what we’d found… The Planck team wouldn’t cooperate.


which I guess really means “we desperately tried to rip them off, but they weren’t that dumb.” While he had these concerns, in the end he decided to agree (as did the whole collaboration) with the tactic of writing a paper claiming dust wasn’t a problem and going public with an aggressive and heavily promoted discovery claim.

The cost/reward computation they were engaged in when they decided to go public with a problematic claim involved two possibilities:

*. Planck data would show the dust was not a problem. If this was the case, BICEP2 would be the people who found the primordial gravitational waves, Planck the losers who measured some boring dust.

*. Planck data would show that the signal was dust. This would be embarrassing, but, this is America, and all publicity is good publicity, right?

As far as I can tell, the BICEP2 scientists haven’t suffered much professionally from the fiasco.


This might be the Vagheesh et. al. motivation as well, if BICEP2 is his collaboration, and Planck is are the Rakhigarhi guys.

As you can infer, I'm clinging on to hope that it won't be just the evidence of the Rg Veda itself that sets this straight. Some genetics data would be good too :). As to what that might be, e.g., if Rakhigarhi shows that tiny bit of green -- see Shiv's posting above -- that accounts for the Siberian HG component, then perhaps Steppe goes out of the window.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2018 09:20

A_Gupta wrote:As you can infer, I'm clinging on to hope that it won't be just the evidence of the Rg Veda itself that sets this straight. Some genetics data would be good too :). As to what that might be, e.g., if Rakhigarhi shows that tiny bit of green -- see Shiv's posting above -- that accounts for the Siberian HG component, then perhaps Steppe goes out of the window.

Arun let me tell you right away that you need to throw away this "hope"

Unless someone starts coming up with migrations into and out of India around the start of the holocene period (10000 yrs ago) and for 3-4000 years after. That is what the text dates suggest. Or else it's like the story below
To continue to use these sciences and technologies for further historical gains,
we must first know where and for what we should be looking. Otherwise, our situation
would be like that of the neighbors subjected to a practical joke by Mulla Nasiruddin,
a wise man who loved to pretend that he was a fool and play practical jokes on
unsuspecting persons. One day Nasiruddin began to look for something intensely
outside his house. Soon the neighbors gathered around and asked him if he had lost
something. He replied, “Yes, my house key.” The neighbors joined him in the search.
After looking for the key in many directions and behind this and that bush, etc., a
neighbor asked Nasiruddin where he had lost the key. Nasiruddin responded, “In the
house.” Then the exasperated and angered neighbors naturally asked him, “Why then
are you looking for the key here, outside the house.” Nasiruddin responded with a
straight face, “Because the light is better here.”

Quote from a a hefty pdf of scholarly work on the Saraswati from a book published in 2014 In Sindhu-Sarasvat ī Civilization: New Perspectives (a Volume in Memory of Dr. Shikaripur Ranganatha Rao), pp. 91-187. Ed, Rao, Nalini. New Delhi: D.K. Printworld.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 24 Apr 2018 10:55

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Technical question: "ADMIXTURE results, with the colors of teal, orange, green and yellow representing ancestry maximized in Iranian agriculturalists from the Zagros, agriculturalists from Anatolia, HGs from Neolithic west Siberia, and HGs from South Asia, respectively." -- what is the "residue" of each of these? What fraction is left unexplained?


Arun,

What ADMIXTURE tells you is of the form "N% of the SNPs observed in a test population X, occur at their highest frequencies in reference population Y"... ("highest", of course, meaning most frequent among all the populations under consideration).

So for example N = 25%, X = Onge, Y = Iran_N.

Of course the Ns need not add up to 100% for the reference populations (typically aDNA populations) for which they have samples.

That's why the "residue" in this case is in fact nothing but so-called "AASI"... a hypothetical population maximally enriched for SNP markers not maximized in any of the reference populations for which they have actual aDNA data. They don't actually have any aDNA samples for "AASI" so whatever doesn't fit the existing reference populations they have chosen as ingredients for their ancestry model (Iran-N, W Siberian HG, Anatolian HG) gets clubbed under AASI to make up the 100%.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 24 Apr 2018 10:59

Some primer reviews on what f3, f4 and other statistical gizmos they use to construct ancestry models actually mean:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3522152/ (from Reich's own lab)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... spfDHdb_XO (from Benjamin Peter)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2018 11:05

Rudradev I don't know if you saw my query on this. The Vagheesh paper in the line they use to describe AASI have used a reference to a paper called the Simons Genome Project by Mullick et al. I downloaded the paper and that paper speaks only of Onge apart from other non Indian populations (eg Oz aborigines)

So have Vagheesh et al quietly taken "Onge" as AASI?

If so that would also be a problem because Reich et all say ASI and Onge fall in one clade but ASI is not Onge. How can Vagheesh et al take Onge (or Mala DG with max Onge ancestry) as model population? Something does not seem right to me but I can't figure it out. Onge stand out in having no ANI ancestry as per other papers. That is not true for moat Indian sampled

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 24 Apr 2018 12:56

The Sanskrit Loan-words in the Cebuano-Bisayan Language
https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/646

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 24 Apr 2018 13:03

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE
MAORI AND SANSKRIT LANGUAGES
http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/ ... A/c18.html

S, SH become H

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 24 Apr 2018 13:14

Pookerin' Romany
By Simon Evans
Ever wondered where words like ‘cushti’ and ‘wonga’ come from? In fact they are Romany words, part of an ancient sanskrit language that originated in the Indus Valley in the Indian sub continent over 1000 years ago.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/artic ... ture.shtml

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 24 Apr 2018 13:48

Priesistoririe Lietuva, by a Lithuanian archaeologist Pulk Tarasenka, which uncovered the following records from ancient Lithuania.

River names :

Nemuna (Yamuna), Tapti (Tapti), Narbudey (Narmada), Srobati (Saraswati)

Tribal or Clan names of the Lithuanians :

Kuru, Puru, Yadav, Sudav

Gods or Deities

Indra, Varuna, Purakanya (Vedic Parjanya)


http://www.aryaputr.com/indian-influenc ... lithuania/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 17:19

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Arun let me tell you right away that you need to throw away this "hope"

Unless someone starts coming up with migrations into and out of India around the start of the holocene period (10000 yrs ago) and for 3-4000 years after. That is what the text dates suggest.


So, to throw away this "hope" I should expect that if Rakhigarhi aDNA shows up, ADMIXTURE will show it to be Onge + Iran_N with hardly a trace of anything else?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2018 17:24

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:


So, to throw away this "hope" I should expect that if Rakhigarhi aDNA shows up, ADMIXTURE will show it to be Onge + Iran_N with hardly a trace of anything else?


All I am saying is - whatever the genetic findings - it has nothing to do with language - at least around 1500 BC

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Apr 2018 17:25

for the Lithuanians to have left india with their culture and migrated north and turned white in the process, must involve a good 8-10k years?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 24 Apr 2018 17:30

^^Possibly, but not necessarily. From what I've been told, by more than one person who knows a bit about these things, the science is not exact and pigmentation can possibly change much faster. In my own experience, I have seen the peculiar phenomenon of two family members (blood-related), one full black (in terms of looks, son) and one full white (mother) both suffering a Vitamin D deficiency. One because of long childhood/early adulthood in Africa and body acclimatised to that environment probably, and the other (son) because he was born and grew up in a North-Western Europe where sunlight hits maybe 3 full months a year.

Possibly an indicator that evolutionary impulses can be triggered very fast perhaps in centuries rather than millennia. Some animals (birds) are known to adapt much faster.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 20:38

^^^ Petras Tarasenko - Lithuanian Wiki Page - use Google translate to read.
https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petras_Tarasenka

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 20:52

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neman
The German name for the river is Memel.
Lithuanians refer to the Nemunas as "the father of rivers" (Nemunas is a masculine noun in Lithuania). Countless companies and organizations in Lithuania have "Nemunas" in their name, including a folklore ensemble, a weekly magazine about art and culture, a sanatorium, and numerous guest houses and hotels. Lithuanian and Polish literature often mention the Nemunas. One of the most famous poems by Maironis starts:

Lithuanian lyrics Approximate English translation
Kur bėga Šešupė, kur Nemunas teka Where the Šešupė runs, where the Nemunas flows
Tai mūsų tėvynė, graži Lietuva That's our fatherland, beautiful Lithuania

Almost every Lithuanian can recite these words by heart.

There are many other smaller rivers and rivulets in Lithuania with names that may have been derived from "Nemunas" — Nemunykštis, Nemuniukas, Nemunynas, Nemunėlis, Nemunaitis. The etymology of the name is disputed: some say that "Nemunas" is an old word meaning "a damp place",[7] while others that it is "mute, soundless river" (from nemti, nėmti "to become silent", also memelis, mimelis, mėmė "slow, worthless person").[8] The name is possibly derived from the Finnic word niemi "cape"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 21:06

Might be a key doc:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/23029087?seq=1

Obtained via https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 012.719305 which in Google Scholar tells us:
"Mannhardt (1875, 1936) established correspondences across the spectrum of Indo-European pantheons, thereby linking the Baltic and Vedic (early Hindu …"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 24 Apr 2018 21:43

Anybody read that open magazine article

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ink-we-are

The attack is relentless.seems IVC paper has been sabotaged.no proper DNA.

And key people influenced..Or bought off

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 24 Apr 2018 22:03

shiv wrote:Rudradev I don't know if you saw my query on this. The Vagheesh paper in the line they use to describe AASI have used a reference to a paper called the Simons Genome Project by Mullick et al. I downloaded the paper and that paper speaks only of Onge apart from other non Indian populations (eg Oz aborigines)

So have Vagheesh et al quietly taken "Onge" as AASI?

If so that would also be a problem because Reich et all say ASI and Onge fall in one clade but ASI is not Onge. How can Vagheesh et al take Onge (or Mala DG with max Onge ancestry) as model population? Something does not seem right to me but I can't figure it out. Onge stand out in having no ANI ancestry as per other papers. That is not true for moat Indian sampled


Shiv, which statement are you referring to in Vagheesh's paper?

I see on Page 6 lines 204-5
“Ancient Ancestral South Indian (AASI)-related”: a hypothesized South Asian Hunter-Gatherer lineage related deeply to present day indigenous Andaman Islanders (19)


(19) is the Mallick paper which estimates dates of ancestral divergence between 142 different populations. With respect to the Onge, it discusses two theories of where the Australian Aborigines, Andamanese, and New Guineans came from: either they were a completely independent branch of humans coming out of Africa separately from the Eurasians (who later intermingled with Neanderthals and Denisovans), or they diverged later from an ancient Eurasian population after it had left Africa. Mallick et al claim that their evidence shows the latter.

Also Pages 13-14, lines 422-8 of Vagheesh:
The fitted admixture graph also reveals that the deep ancestry of the indigenous hunter-gather population of India represents an anciently divergent branch of Asian human variation that split off around the same time that East Asian, Onge and Australian aboriginal ancestors separated from each other.

This finding is consistent with a model in which essentially all the ancestry of present-day eastern and southern Asians (prior to West Eurasian-related admixture) derives from a single eastward spread, which gave rise in a short span of time to the lineages leading to AASI, East Asians, Onge, and Australians. (19)


In both cases they do not seem to be making the claim that AASI == Onge. What they claim is that their data agree with a finding of Mallick et al: that some particular branch of Eurasians moved east and their descendants became many lineages, including AASI (which led to Onge), East Asians, and Australian aborigines.

What is the relationship between Onge and AASI? To say that Onge probably preserve a lot of the AASI genome is (by Vagheesh's standards) not a ridiculous extrapolation. They are an isolated population, like Darwin's finches, and have been for millennia presumably without any incoming gene flow. They may well have lost some of the original AASI markers (because of endogamy, non-random mating, selection, and genetic drift) and acquired some new ones (because of mutation) so they would not be exactly the same as AASI. However the assumption is that they would not have had AASI markers displaced and lost forever by incoming migration. Unless one can show that later populations went to the Andamans and bred with the indigenous people whom we now know as Onge, it is not unreasonable to assume that they are as "pure" a descendant population of AASI as we can get in modern times.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 24 Apr 2018 22:08

The Mallick paper does show something interesting though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 61557/#R22

See extended data Figure 4B.

Look at the node just to the left of "South Asia- Hazara" from which everything from "South Asia-Burusho" to "East Asia_Miao" descends. Onge is part of that clade. Which means AASI, though not shown on that figure, lies somewhere upstream of Onge on the same clade.

This very same clade includes MANY Siberian populations but NO West Eurasian populations.

What are the chances that common prior lineages of descent between Siberians and Onge (including AASI) are responsible for the "West Siberian Hunter Gatherer" ancestry markers that Vagheesh et al found in the "Indus Periphery", Swat, and other samples? And NOT "Steppe_MLBA input" as Vagheesh et al claim?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Apr 2018 22:52

Anshuman.Kumar wrote:Anybody read that open magazine article

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ink-we-are

The attack is relentless.seems IVC paper has been sabotaged.no proper DNA.

And key people influenced..Or bought off



A group of Indian archaeologists, led by Shinde, has been able to retrieve 25 skeletons so far from Indus Valley sites that he claims date back to 5000 BCE. The most promising among them are the remains of four people they discovered in Rakhigarhi in Haryana in 2014.


But what about 2016?

viewtopic.php?t=6848&start=4000#p2242865


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