Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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wig
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by wig »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/4k ... e3d0ef1e4e

4k-year-old copper weapons found under a field in UP’s Mainpuri

extracted
They had big weapons, used large swords - some close to 4 feet long - and arms that had sharp, sophisticated shapes, like starfish. Our ancestors, nearly 4,000 years ago, fought brutally and hard, a chance discovery under the ground in UP's Mainpuri seems to suggest. Archaeologists have called the findings "exciting".

Earlier this month in Mainpuri's Ganeshpur village, a farmer was levelling his two-bigha field when he found a large number of copper swords and harpoons beneath the soil. He took all of them home as he thought these were precious objects made of gold or silver. However, some locals informed cops and the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) swung into action.

Among what was found were various swords, some that archaeologists are calling "antenna swords and harpoons'", with a hook at the bottom.

Experts say a hoard of 4,000-year-old copper weapons discovered by chance under a field in Uttar Pradesh's Mainpuri can be traced to the copper age.

"These copper hoards belong to the Chalcolithic period (copper age) and the presence of Ochre Coloured Pottery (OCP) is directly associated with this time," said the director of archaeology at ASI, Bhuvan Vikram. "Bronze was a specialty of the Harappan - basically an urban civilisation during the copper age - but studies have revealed that such hoard implements were primarily made from copper and not bronze," he added.

OCP culture is generally dated between 2,000 and 1,500 BCE. Pottery of this period had a red slip but gave off an ochre colour on the fingers of the archaeologists who touched it, hence the name. Director of conservation and spokesperson of ASI, Vasant Swarnkar, said there have been several discoveries that can prove the material found at Mainpuri was nearly 3,800-4,000 years old. "A carbon dating test was also carried out on samples taken from nearby Sanauli (Baghpat), Madarpur (Moradabad), and Sakatpur (Saharanpur) sites. They have proven to be from 2,000 BC (4,000 years ago)," he said.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by la.khan »

wig wrote:
OCP culture is generally dated between 2,000 and 1,500 BCE. Pottery of this period had a red slip but gave off an ochre colour on the fingers of the archaeologists who touched it, hence the name. Director of conservation and spokesperson of ASI, Vasant Swarnkar, said there have been several discoveries that can prove the material found at Mainpuri was nearly 3,800-4,000 years old. "A carbon dating test was also carried out on samples taken from nearby Sanauli (Baghpat), Madarpur (Moradabad), and Sakatpur (Saharanpur) sites. They have proven to be from 2,000 BC (4,000 years ago)," he said.
So, our ancestors from 4,000 years ago had affinity for shades of saffron? :twisted:
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Our President-elect, Droupadi Murmu is a Santali. The Santalis & the Mundas are speakers of an entirely different language family called Austro-Asiatic. Its different from the Dravdian and Indo-European language families that most Indians speak.

Missionaries, Indologists & other assorted crooks were parroting a lie that the Santalis & Mundaris were the "Adivasis" - the original inhabitants of India. Gyaneshwar Chaubey et al punctured that lie when he showed that these Austro-Asiatic speakers entered India only around 5K years ago and all their male-lineages can be traced back to just 4 individuals from South-East Asia
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Shwetank »

Enigmatic Designs Found in India May Be The Largest Images Ever Made by Human Hands
Didn't think geoglyphs would be ever found in India, like famous ones in Americas and Europe. Link has aerial photos
Hidden in the vast, arid expanses of India's Thar Desert lie mysterious old drawings carved into the land.

These newly discovered designs are of such immense scale, they were likely never able to be glimpsed in their entirety by those who made them, researchers say.

The huge motifs are examples of geoglyphs – giant hand-made depictions and patterns built upon or carved into the land, often occupying such scope that the true appearance of their forms can only be appreciated from far above.

Amongst all known geoglyphs of historical relevance – including the famous Nazca Lines of Peru – the Thar Desert formations appear to stand alone, however, representing what may actually be the largest-ever graphical depictions designed by humans.
...
The largest geoglyph identified, the giant asymmetrical spiral (called Boha 1), is made from a single looping line running for 12 kilometers (7.5 miles), over an area 724 meters long by 201 meters wide (790 by 220 yards).

To the southwest of this huge vortex shape rests a serpentine geoglyph (Boha 2), composed of an 11-kilometer long line, which encompasses a serpent-like figure, a smaller spiral, and a long boustrophedon-style sequence of lines running back and forth.

Other small geoglyphs can also be found in the Boha region (including a feature of meandering lines, called Boha 3), which in total includes around 48 kilometers of still visible lines today, which the researchers estimate may once have extended for about 80 kilometers.
...
"After extensive research, we consider the Boha geoglyphs to be the largest abstract and organically arranged man-made geometric figures discovered so far," the researchers write.

"We remain convinced that these unique geoglyphs are closely connected to their geographical and cultural context, and possibly contain a universal message linked to the Sacred and the cosmos."
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by RoyG »

Very confident we won the linguistic battle on paper. Significant victory went under the radar. Validation of Sue Sullivan's decipherment of Indus script. Think the gentleman has made some contribution as well apart from proof.




Proof:

https://independent.academia.edu/yajnadevam
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Rony »

Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages


https://twitter.com/Ugra___/status/1684 ... 62432?s=20 : Folks, Heggarty et al. 2023 is out ! The Indus Valley Civilization were IE-speaking.

Image


https://twitter.com/Ugra___/status/1684 ... 45984?s=20 : Heggarty et al. 2023 smash the most prominent take by genetic punditry on Indian Twitter - Steppes ancestry ≠ Brahmins. They find that modern Zoroastrians have the highest affinity with Iran_Neolithic, the major component in the Rakhigarhi Woman.

https://twitter.com/Ugra___/status/1684 ... 32833?s=20 : An important take - Heggarty et al. believe that the PIE root for the wheel *kʷekʷl(o) did not mean a literal wheel, but a more generic phenomena of cyclicality or rotation in the night sky. This is in strong opposition to Steppe theorists.

https://twitter.com/Ugra___/status/1684 ... 31008?s=20 : Heggarty et al. 2023 agree with the mainstream archaeological consensus that there is no substantive material record of a common Steppes entry into Iran and India.

https://twitter.com/Ugra___/status/1684 ... 11328?s=20 : One of the standout features of this paper is their acknowledgement of the "circularity" (E Bryant 2001) in dating Vedic texts to 1500 BCE . So instead of a normal distribution, they use a log-normal curve with a "tail into deeper prehistory" for Vedic & Avestan branches.
Last edited by Rony on 28 Jul 2023 17:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Rony »

Koenraad Elst's take on Heggarty et al. 2023

https://twitter.com/ElstKoenraad/status ... 79008?s=20 : Update on the AIT. Yamnaya has been relegated to "secondary Homeland" status, the original Homeland now being situated in northern Iran. Outside Europe... Cheer up, Indians, we're moving closer !


https://twitter.com/ElstKoenraad/status ... 42273?s=20 : For those unwilling to plough through the latest AIT paper by Paul Heggarty et al., here the map. It conflicts in many ways w/ the scenario the AIT crowd had gotten used to. Tony Joseph's claim of a scholarly consensus is false, even inside the AIT camp. Groping in the dark.

Image
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/if ... 4ff5&ei=29

Excerpts from the Book Indian: History of Civilization by G.N. Devy, Ravi Korisettar and Tony Joseph

To sum up, the available literary and scientific data suggest the following hypotheses (Kochhar, 1999):

The stage when the Satluj and Yamuna flowed into the Ghaggar was long over before the Harappan times.
During the early and mature Harappan periods, the Ghaggar-Hakra channel was perhaps perennial or nearly so, to be able to sustain population groups on its lower course.
In about 1700 BCE, the water supply diminished further, desiccating the lower part of the Ghaggar channel and forcing the later-period Harappans to migrate upstream to the Shivalik region.
In about 1400 BCE there arrived, from the northwest, the Rig Vedic people who gave to the upper course of the Ghaggar the name (Vinashana) Sarasvati after the naditama Sarasvati (Helmand) they had left behind in Afghanistan.
The key to India’s prehistory lies in the hydrological history of the Ghaggar. Suppose it turns out that the Ghaggar was a powerful river in 2000 BCE. By itself this would not prove that the old Ghaggar was the Rig Vedic Sarasvati, because every mighty river need not be Sarasvati. But if it turns out (as is likely) that the Ghaggar has been more or less in its present state for say 10,000 years or more, then the Ghaggar would automatically be ruled out as a candidate for identification with the Rig Vedic Sarasvati.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by bala »

Memes do not always follow Genes | Reimagining the Aryan debate by Infinity Foundation

Ideas do not always flow along with mass migrations. The concept of Rashtra must be differentiated from the western idea of nation. The Dravidian false narrative is based on the theory that Aryans invaded India. British denigrated India by dividing the people by caste, the Aryan invasion theory and by demeaning the Sanskrit language. Nehru, Kangress, Communists, leftist further continue with the colonial mindset and rule. All the anchor Indian history according to the Brits is patently false and purely made up by the degenerate minds in Britain with their racial tilt.



A lot of knowledge, science, maths went out of India. Even Arts and Music went out of India. Just take a look at Nepali Sarangi and a Violin and the similarity is striking. In fact, Music (scale sa,re,ga,ma,pa...) originated from the Vedas, Sama Veda. Narada siksha says that the notes originate from the Rig Veda accents of udata, anudata and svarita. From udata the notes of nishada (निषाद) and gandara (गान्धार) were created; from anudata the notes of rishaba (ऋषभ) and dhaivata (धैवत) were created; from svarita the notes of shadja (षड्ज), madhyama (मध्यम) and panchama (पञ्चम) were created. Initially in Sama Veda era the seven notes were named as pratima, dvitiya, tritaya, chaturta, mandra, atisvara and krushta (to shout). Spanish flamenco is a gypsy dance
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/opinion/ ... cbc7&ei=49

How the 2008 Alamgirpur re-excavation challenged timeline of mighty Harappan Civilisation

" It was long believed that the Harappan Civilisation was exclusive to the western provinces of the Indian subcontinent and areas surrounding the Indus River Valley. With limited excavations largely restricted to the valley, barely half of the civilisation was uncovered until 1947. But years after Independence, meticulous research identified more Harappan archaeological sites. By the 1960s, discovered sites extended to Balochistan’s Makran coast, with Sutkagan Dor marking the civilisation’s western limit. But everyone was surprised when it was found that the Harappan civilisation also extended to the banks of the Yamuna River in India, with Uttar Pradesh’s Alamgirpur markings its easternmost boundary.

Initially, scholars were quick to label Alamgirpur as a Late Harappan site – belonging to the last phase of the Harappan civilisation – which conveniently echoed the long-standing theory of eastward (towards the Ganga River) migration of the Harappans. Of course, in the absence of scientific dates, their assumption was based on material culture retrieved from the initial excavation in 1958. However, new dates from the site, ranging from 2600 to 2200 BCE, questioned the established timeline of Harappan presence in the Ganga-Yamuna Doab."
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

https://x.com/morningporch/status/16865 ... 93056?s=20

Dave Bonta
@morningporch
·
Aug 2
I'm very proud to share the fruits of my linguist brother Steve Bonta's 33-year effort to decipher the Indus Valley Script. Despite studying Dravidian languages out the wazoo, he ultimately found it to be an early form of Sanskrit.

link to the research Report:
https://www.academia.edu/105134798/A_Pa ... ndus_Texts
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/lifestyle/wha ... 2a4d6&ei=9

A paper written by Bahata Ansumali Mukhopadhyay, a software engineer from Bangalore puts forward the hypothesis that the symbols found in the Indus Valley script are symbols meant for commerce and not a language script. Interesting.

"Mukhopadhyay, 42, published her third paper in the peer reviewed journal, Nature on December 19, arguing against the widely-held idea that the Indus Valley script essentially consisted of religious texts or names of people and places and that the inscribed stamp seals and tablets were mainly used as tax stamps and licenses for ancient commerce. Mukhopadhyay’s paper states that the Indus Valley’s growing economy needed a standardised measurement system and a “mercantile script” to control commerce — one that could be understood universally across the distant settlements of the civilization."

“Across the ancient world, all writing systems were invented from the needs of accounting and commercial administration. Since people across the vast area of the Indus civilization were potentially multilingual, the elite groups did not want to use any language-specific phonological script on their seals. The way modern traffic symbols remain intelligible to both literate and illiterate people of different speech communities, Indus script’s signs were also mostly language-agnostic symbols which encoded names of various taxed commodities, licensed commercial activities, tax rates, license fees, license slabs etc by using certain cultural symbols,” said Mukhopadhyay, speaking on the phone from her home in Bengaluru."
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

SRajesh
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by SRajesh »

^^
A question of all forum members:
Every archeological dig photos I have seen of be it Indus or Harappa or Rakhigarhi or other contemporary sites shows:
1. well organised urban settlements
2. Beautifully painted pottery
3. carvings and figurines
etc
Having such advanced cultures how did the society not have a organised faith/religion/belief or what ever you want to call??
Also curious is why no figurines of god/goddess etc not found
And more curious is how :
A postoral nomadic invaders had advanced concept of religion and vedas
I could not find much help to questions from 'Google Chaca' or 'Wiki Rani' so please help me understand this dilemma!!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by SRajesh »

The reason I ask is because every early civilisation had a concept of religion/faith or concept of supreme being or God
How come the dark skinned rice eating folks are labelled atheists with no awareness of higher consciousness Spirituality etc :eek:
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by bala »

Rajiv Malhotra summarizes the failed AIT theory as expounded by Britshit inspired racists colonial minded people. There is a concerted effort by these racists pigs of the world to continue to prop up AIT and instigate a new hatred againsts India and its Vedic past. They continue with the failed/flawed/debunked nonsense that Sanskrit and Vedas were imported to India when there is no country other than India that has sanskrit/knowledge of vedas. Even today the chutiyas denigrate the Vedas as some fairy tales spun on devas/devis when their retarded/stunted/class duffer intellect cannot comprehend the vast gyan of the Vedas. A favorite pastime for these pigs is to denigrate Brahmins and villify them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhKajduVrJY
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Haresh »

"The treaty mentions gods such as Indra and Mithra, but unfortunately, both the Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians worshiped gods under those names"

Piecing Together the Lost Mitanni Empire

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient ... re-0017337
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

> "The treaty mentions gods such as Indra and Mithra, but unfortunately, both the Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians worshiped gods under those names"


No, to the extent that there is evidence, it is that the Mitanni Gods are the Vedic Gods.
See "The Aryan Gods of the Mitani People” by Sten Konow, 1923".
I uploaded a copy here:
https://www.academia.edu/41685888/The_A ... ani_People

Since you can obtain the whole text, I'll just quote a little:
The result of the preceding enquiry is accordingly that the Indra of the Mitani treaty was in every likelihood the well-known Vedic god and not an Aryan, pre-Indian deity. An examination of the last name of the list, that of the two Nāsatayas, apparently leads to the same conclusion.
...
The Mitani treaty supposes a dual deity, such as we find in the Vedic Nāsatyau, a frequent designation of the two Aśvins....
....In the same way there is every presumption that the single Nāsatya, who we know from Iranian and Indian sources, goes back into the period of Indo-Iranian unity, while the divine couple of the Ṛgveda is an Indian innovation, due to a combination of the ancient Aryan demon Nāsatya with another one who was closely connected with him.
....
...
The Vedic gods mentioned in the treaty are not, of course, meant as an enumeration of all, or even of the principal Indian gods of the Mitani chiefs. Only such deities are mentioned as have something to do with the treaty itself. It is, therefore, quite natural that the list is opened by Mitra, the god of compacts and the personification of friendship. We also easily understand why the name of Varuna follows. He watches over solemn engagements and obligations connected with the treaty. Also Indra's role is easily intelligible. He is the god of war and battles whose activity has led to the conclusion of the peace. But what have the Nāsatyas to do with the treaty?

To quote Macdonell , the two Aśvins of the Ṛgveda "have come to be typically succouring divinities. They are the speediest helpers and deliverers from distress in general. They are constantly praised for such deeds. In particular, they rescue from the ocean in a ship or ships…Their rescue from all kinds of distress is a peaceful manifestation of divine grace, not a deliverance from foes in battle, as is generally the case with Indra (with whom, however, they are once associated in fight, even receiving the epithet of Vṛtra-slayers). They are thus also characteristically divine physicians, who heal diseases with their remedies, restoring sight, curing the blind, sick and maimed. They are the physicians of the gods and guardians of immortality, who ward off death from the worshipper. Apart from their character as helpers, healers and wonder-workers their general beneficence is often praised. They bring their worshipper to old age with seeing eye and abundance of children."

There is nothing in this description which helps us to understand why the Nāsatyas are invoked in the Mitani treaty. One might think they have been considered as restoring deities and are invoked as such to reestablish normal relations between the inimical parties. Such an explanation would, however, be rather far-fetched and unlikely, especially if we bear in mind that their activity is always described as a peaceful manifestation and not as the consequence of war and battles.

There is, however, one feature of the Aśvin myths which is of especial interest in connexion with the Mitani treaty. The Nāsatyas are the two husbands of Sūryā, the sun's daughter, and there is no part of the Aśvin-legend which is more frequently alluded to in the Ṛgveda. It is a well-known fact that Sūryā came to be considered as the typical bride and her legend to play a role in the ancient marriage-rites. In late hymns the two Aśvins then develop into the typical groomsmen who are invoked to conduct the bride home in their chariot.

There is nothing to show that this conception is old in the Ṛgveda. We hear, it is true, that the Aśvins bestow a child on the eunuch's wife, a husband on the old maid or a bride on a favourite, but such deeds are the same kind as their usual feats, where they act as helpers and protectors in need and distress. It is only in a late hymn that they are invoked to take the bride home to the bridegroom.

It is, however, evidently this side of their nature which accounts for their being mentioned in the Mitani treaty.

We have seen how that compact was concluded after a war between the Hittite king Subbiluliuma and the Mitani king, and how Subbiluliuma installed Mattiuaza as king of the Mitani and gave him his own daughter in marriage.

I have no hesitation in asserting that it is on account of this marriage that the Nāsatyas are invoked in the treaty. In this way we get a fully satisfactory explanation of the mentioning of all the Aryan deities named in the Mitani compact, and, so far as I can see, only in this way.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by SRajesh »

But wasn’t Mitra the deity associated with Bull
Apis/ minioan bull or Minotaur/ Taurobolim or ever Indus Valley Bull symbol suggest widespread bull worship
Mithradates was common name of kings Pontus region??
So how can we connect that to import of Vedic culture .
Now the link above suggests that spoked wheels originated in Mitani
Any other link or reference I can read up on evolution of chariots and especially spoked wheels
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

But wasn’t Mitra the deity associated with Bull
Apis/ minioan bull or Minotaur/ Taurobolim
No.
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