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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2017 20:53

Dipanker wrote:
shiv wrote:
Rig Veda's mention of the number horse ribs coincided with the number of ribs Arabian horses have.


Volume/Verse ref. number ?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01162.htm
The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2017 21:05

Yak Herder - the roots of modern Tamil may lie in Old Kannada called "HaleGannada". Lot's of words in old Kannada are closer to Tamizh than modern Kannada. For example lots of "pa" words in Tamil and Old Kannada have become words starting with "ha" in modern Kannada.
But modern Kannada alphabet (like Malayalam I think) is similar to the a aa e ee of Devnagri.

That said if you can read Hindi, Kannada and Tamizh you can actually begin to see the similarities between Devnagri script and Tamizh script. In fact in some ways Kannada script is more different from Devnagari than Tamil/Tamizh

"la"
ल - Hindi
ள - Tamil
Can't do Kannada - my reinstalled sw after a disk crash is not complete yet. But la in Kannada looks like a 2/3 circle

"ka"
क - ka - Hindi
க் - ka Tamil

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jul 2017 21:22

Strange thing is that Tamil characters look like Malloostani, but for different sounds: Ha! Let me see what I can generate with my keyboard where, courtesy of an ill-advised Facebook experiment Caps Lock now goes into Malloostani.

ല is "la".
ന is "na"
നി is "ni"
ക is "ka" which looks very like the Tamil.

So one can seriously read wrong if one is looking for the railway station to get down, it's like trying to read Russian knowing only Angreji.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 11 Jul 2017 21:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVjvhcO-7Lg

Not strictly for this thread, but I am putting it there for all to watch because it will be useful in perusing this thread's other posts.
A lecture by Smt. Vishaka Hari at Sastra University

Occasionally she uses Tamil phrases here and there, but the overall is in English.

Watch it people. Everyone.

There are some sarcastic hits on NRIs, but she's fantastic. The spirit. It is coming back.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jul 2017 21:26

how familiar are you with Tamil really :)? No offense intended.

Ha! For my first 5.5 years of schooling, first 10 years of life, I had to do *all* my fighting in Tamizh. The purest lexicon of cuss words is mine forever. But I never learned to read & write, not in 5 years spent in the sheltered suburb of Chennai either.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 11 Jul 2017 21:57

OT alert

shiv ji,

I believe you did a convincing job of trashing the claims of Old Persian/Avesta language and demolishing it as nothing but corrupted samskrtam.

I wonder why you think Tamizh is closer to Haale kannada than it is to Old Tamizh.I believe Haale itself is a relatively modern term -a corruption of pazhaya.It is well known pa becomes ha in kannada.The old 'zha' which existed earlier died out in kannada.

There is a view promoted by some tamils that all dravidian languages are daughters of tamizh.Others says all dravidian languages came out of proto dravidian.But no one knows what proto dravidian is.There are no extant works of haale kannada before 10th c. of CE.OTOH tamizh has a long history.It would seem more natural to suppose Haale kannada was a dialect of the proto dravidian language spoken throughout(with variations) in TN/KA or haale kannada was a dialect of old tamizh(because only this language is known) and this dialect diverged to become a distinct language.Infact it would seem haale kannada was already a distinct language by the first centuries of the CE(or even before) as ancient tamizh literature already marks out venkatam as the northern boundary of Tamizhakam.
Last edited by svenkat on 11 Jul 2017 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 11 Jul 2017 22:05

OT Alert
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannada

A possibly more definite reference to Kannada is found in the 'Charition Mime' ascribed to the late 1st to early 2nd century CE.[41][42] The farce, written by an unknown author, is concerned with a Greek lady named Charition who has been stranded on the coast of a country bordering the Indian Ocean. The king of this region, and his countrymen, sometimes use their own language, and the sentences they speak could be interpreted as Kannada, including Koncha madhu patrakke haki ("Having poured a little wine into the cup separately") and paanam beretti katti madhuvam ber ettuvenu ("Having taken up the cup separately and having covered it, I shall take wine separately.").[43] The language employed in the papyrus indicates that the play is set in one of the numerous small ports on the western coast of India, between Karwar and Kanhangad.[

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2017 22:11

svenkat wrote:I wonder why you think Tamizh is closer to Haale kannada than Old Tamizh.I believe Haale itself is a relatively modern term -a corruption of pazhaya.It is well known pa becomes ha in kannada.The old 'zha' which existed earlier died out in kannada.

I have no studies of my own, But a friend of mine - a classmate and a millionaire physician in Florida (and a Tamilian) who along with his wife are deeply rooted in Indian culture told me that some findings suggest that. He did a lot of trips to India for archaeological stuff - he is an amateur archaeologist. I don't know but I trust his word because he generally does not bluff. I put it forward as an alternative theory. Tamil chauvinism is strong - as strong as any other Indian linguistic chauvinism. Kannadigas are relative wimps in comparison and one part of my mind suggests to me that a "dyed in the wool" (so to speak) Tamilian might be more likely to react to being called Dravidian race by saying "Yes I am and I don't give a flying fuk about you Aryans" This is the sort of damage that the AIT has done. Tamil Chauvinism has been aggravated by AIT. In fact there are Tamilians who have removed all "Sanskritic" names and converted them to swacch Tamil - ("sentamizh" I think), I knew a chap who called himself "Magizhko" - which is a direct translation of his original name which was something-Raj. The "Raj" became "ko" in Tamil IIRC
Last edited by shiv on 11 Jul 2017 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jul 2017 22:13

venkatji, so is there a root to be traced in old Tamizh for "Dravida"? Getting more and more curious about this. I always assumed that there must be perfectly obvious answer to this. "Malayali" is "Hillbilly". "Keralam" is the land of the Kera vriksham (coconut tree). I wonder if the "Chekutan" mentioned in MB (cited above) is the legendary Chekutthaan (closest to Devil) of Malloo lore. :)
The letter corresponding to zha ഴ exists in Malloostani, and in pure old Tamizh, but very few present speakers in TN can use it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jul 2017 22:20

Note that in the JanaGanaMana.. the words are
..Dravida Utkala Vanga

Serious research must have gone into that. Tagore was no wimp or Conversionist, he would have used the original word.

shiv, drop by Rahul D's mansion and ask him where his ancestors got the name :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby symontk » 11 Jul 2017 22:27

SriJoy wrote:
shiv wrote:
:rotfl: Wait wait wait!

Let me get this right.

YOU want ME to provide justification for doing something that YOU think needs to be done. Not my problem sir. Not my problem. You have to figure that one out for yourself.


Classic dodge. My point is simple. Jew has been used derogatively to imply venal, money-grabbing christ-killers for centuries, before Jews started opposing the word's racist connotations and succeeded.
And Jew is not even a Hebrew word or close to its Hebrew counterpart (Yahud). Ergo, if far tinier demographics of Jews can re-define a racially derogative word to an ethnically neutral term, Indians too can re-define Aryan to the proper cultural context of 'Arya' in Sanskrit.
to not do so, would be to allow racists to succeed in defining a word borrowed from our language to define us incorrectly.

Until you can demonstrate why it is okay to re-define Jew from racially derogative to ethnically neutral and not okay to do so for Aryan, you have no case. Simple. Pleas of 'its not an original word' is fallacy,because Jew is also not a Hebrew word, neither is Swastika the perfect Sanskrit version of the word.


Jew for Yahud is correct only. It was derived as Jew from the confusion between J and I.

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comment ... h=2bb248eb

There was a massive confusion of alphabets in Europe and J and I were the prime letters which was confused much. Although it was written as Jew, it was spelled as Iew as in Yuda for Yahudi's.

Another example is writing over Jesus Christ's cross, it wasnt INRI butit should have been JNRJ in modern english. It was spelt as Iseus Nazerene Rex Iudearom

My 2 cents

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 11 Jul 2017 22:29

shiv, drop by Rahul D's mansion and ask him where his ancestors got the name :)


RD is a Maharastrian from Indore, MP, living in Bangalore, Kerala. Most likely his last name D does not signify anything, it is just an adopted one.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 11 Jul 2017 22:40

RDs ancestors are from TN,i think though i am not sure.Dravid is a marathi speaking .Some deshastha smarthas have this surname,not all.

Interestengly dravida,andhra,karnata,gurjara and maharashtra are the five 'sub sects' of pancha dravida.Dravida has a generic and particular meaning here.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 11 Jul 2017 22:51

shiv ji,
I dont know why you brought the reference to chauvinism.Something is very old and documented does not mean that the documented stuff is great.even if it is great,much water has flown since then.

The intervening period cannot be wished away.We are what we are today though knowing our past is helpful.

We are trying to find something definite about our past.In terms of values,all we can say is that Veda stands for Satyam,Kushalam(skill),Jnanam(knowledge),goodness,etc and in general hindus accept these vedic values.I will not distract you any further.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 11 Jul 2017 22:51

svenkat wrote:RDs ancestors are from TN,i think though i am not sure.Dravid is a marathi speaking .Some deshastha smarthas have this surname,not all.

Interestengly dravida,andhra,karnata,gurjara and maharashtra are the five 'sub sects' of pancha dravida.Dravida has a generic and particular meaning here.

It is been stated in the history of my surname - OAK (now Maharashtrian for a long time and in the same sub-caste -Chitpavan Kokanastha Brahmins...
All Peshwas, Lokamnya Tilak, Gopal K Gokhale, Veer Savarkar, Nathuram Godse, Vinoba Bhave, Madhuri Dixit, et al) that "OAK's were originally from Andhra Pradesh.

Do not have any objectively testable evidence in support of that. :lol:

I was told that it originally sounded similar to 'vak' in Andhra. Don't know if it means something in Telagu. In marathi, it (Oak) does have a meaning, not a great one.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 12 Jul 2017 00:26

How old are you SriJoy?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SriJoy » 12 Jul 2017 03:50

^^
In my 40s.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2017 06:48

svenkat wrote:shiv ji,
I dont know why you brought the reference to chauvinism.Something is very old and documented does not mean that the documented stuff is great.even if it is great,much water has flown since then.

The intervening period cannot be wished away.We are what we are today though knowing our past is helpful.

We are trying to find something definite about our past.In terms of values,all we can say is that Veda stands for Satyam,Kushalam(skill),Jnanam(knowledge),goodness,etc and in general hindus accept these vedic values.I will not distract you any further.

Did not mean to hurt any sentiments. As I see it the picture we have of the past has been muddied by a number of factors. I used the word chauvinism because I wanted to use something stronger than Tamil pride. There is Kannada pride as well but Tamil pride manifests more strongly and Tamil people are more openly forthcoming about a Tamil past. These are just my observations - but what has all this got to do with this thread? As I see it the Brits came via two ports - Chennai and Kolkata. They set up forts in these areas and employed locals (Tamilians and Bengalis) initially as clerks and labourers but much later our bureaucrats came from Bengal and Tamilnadu. Madras University is one of the oldest Universities and it was the "go to" place for people to study (in the system that the British set up). Both my grandfather and father got degrees from Madras Univ - there was no local university back then in Mysore state at least in my Grandfather's days.

The upshot of all this was that Tamilians (and Bengalis) filled up bureaucratic posts in Delhi when Delhi came under British control. Delhi, Madras and Calcutta fell under British India while Andhra was under the Nizam and Mysore state under a the Maharaja of Mysore. There was no "Delhi cadre" from Andhra or Mysore state. I don't know about Malloostan - will have to Googal for it. So the Tamilian became the face of the South in North India.

To my knowledge Indian historical narrative has never classified people of India as "North-South" or East or west the way we speak now. People from the South who travelled regularly on pilgrimages to Kashi or to Amarnath or Kailash never said "We are going to North India". The Indian tradition was always "peoples" and "lands" - not just North or South.

It was the AIT that broke India into Aryan north and Dravidian south. And because Tamilians became the "face of the south" in North India - the south became associated with Madras and the south Indian the Madrasi - a name hated by Kannadigas who were called Madrasi in Maharashtra by the Shiv Sena of the 1960s. And when the question of "National language==Hindi" arose it was Tamil pride that manifested itself much more forcefully than any other southern identity in the anti-Hindi agitation. That aside the AIT classification of "Aryan" and "Dravidian" had the effect of consolidating Tamil political identity as "Dravidian" leading to the formation of the Dravida Munetra Kazhagam (DMK) (Dravidian Progress federation". This internalization of Dravidian identity was less strong or absent in Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala. possibly because those people came under a separate quasi independent government and not directly under the Qyoon of Britain.

What I have stated above is simply my hypothesis of why things may have panned out the way they did. I would be happy to hear other views on this.
Last edited by shiv on 12 Jul 2017 06:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jul 2017 06:58

The DMK was an offshoot of the original DK. Then the ADMK shot off that and the AIADMK from that... OT< sorry. But we still don't have an explanation for the meaning of the word Dravida. Maybe it is in Oriya/Sinhala?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jul 2017 07:05

BTW, the term "Adi Dravida" now means "Dalit" and are viewed as a juicy Flock to convert by the Joshua Project.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2017 07:39

UlanBatori wrote:BTW, the term "Adi Dravida" now means "Dalit" and are viewed as a juicy Flock to convert by the Joshua Project.

This is unsurprising and is the current state of a 150 year long bluff that created superior Aryans and inferior Dravidians . The superior Aryans allegedly arrogated to themselves the status of Brahmin. And despite these "Aryan" Brahmins being unarmed, shirtless and skilled only in Veda-droning and butt-resting in front of "fire-altars" they "subjugated" the inferior Dravdians, who remained too dumb for 3000 years to pick up the tools they were using in their trades as carpenters or stonemasons to hit a Brahmin on the head and put him in his place. So they now require rescue by the Church

And we believe this shit

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Schmidt » 12 Jul 2017 10:41

Shiv ji , it might be possible that Tamil developed out of Kannada

But is there any Kannada literature comparable to Tamil sangam works that are dated back to 300 BC , in their scope of work , as well as sheer beauty ??

Or did all the Kannada writers switch to composing in Tamil en masse

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 12 Jul 2017 11:03

@shiv ji, is there any institute or organisation that promotes OoT theory ?
If there is no org. out there, what are the chances to start our own?

We have no institutional backing to do any thing. May be this will change the fate of Indic studies.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SriJoy » 12 Jul 2017 11:23

syam wrote:@shiv ji, is there any institute or organisation that promotes OoT theory ?
If there is no org. out there, what are the chances to start our own?

We have no institutional backing to do any thing. May be this will change the fate of Indic studies.


No institution supports OOI. this is because linguists have arbitarily decided that timeframes of PIE must be in the 3000-4000 BC period, no earlier. Ergo, fitting an expansion out of India within this timeframe is pretty much impossible, hence not used. this is the same reason why Anatolian hypothesis, which is on a sounder theoretical basis in terms of explaining Semetic-IndoEuropean language influences was rejected, as to accommodate Anatolian origin theory, you'd need to push the dates of PIE back to 7000-9000 BC, like with OOI.

We need to de-construct the arbitary timeframes used by linguists the world over for hypothetical languages (PIE) before anybody will deal with OOI or Anatolian hypothesis.
Kazanas is the only Indologist who emphatically supports OOI but he is retired now.

Also, to institutionalize OOI, we are going to have to follow procedure - aka, make evidence based claims - which means produce evidence-even if flimsy-outside of treating our texts as 'sacred and correct by default' and ice age Ramayana type proclamations go straight out of the window.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 12 Jul 2017 12:14

SriJoy wrote:No institution supports OOI.
~~~~~~

Ok then. It is time to start one of our own. And give guest lectures where ever it is possible and publish papers.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 12 Jul 2017 12:27

UlanBatori wrote:Perhaps the right answer to the Dravida question is that we should seek the word root in Tamizh, not Samskrtam. Incidentally, the words "choru" (rice), "vair" (stomach) etc cited in the pages posted by Guptaji, occur in Malayalam, not in modern Tamil. Cooked rice is now "shadam" in TN and Tamil-speaking Sri Lanka.


My two cents in creating the malicious divide with Aryan / Dravidian and cooked up PIE - real scholarship has been found wanting...

Rice - if you do a dictionary or wiki search claims the following origin: Middle English: from Old French ris, from Italian riso, from Greek oruza .
Where as any one who knows Tamil recognizes the word "Arici" (அரிசி) - so why is Greek picking up a Dravidian word? :P

Welcome - if you do a dictionary or wiki search claims the following origin: Old English wilcuma ‘a person whose coming is pleasing,’ wilcumian (verb), from wil- ‘desire, pleasure’ + cuman ‘come’ The first element was later changed to wel- ‘well,’ influenced by Old French bien venu or Old Norse velkominn
Where as any one who knows Tamil recognizes the word "Vanakkam" (வணக்கம்) - why is this word so similar to Old Norse Velkominn? :eek:

Kill - compare with Tami word "kill" (கில) or "kol" (கொல்) - exact word! exact meaning! :eek: :shock: :P

The horse manure stinks in this field!
There is a quick list one can make similarly... some learned scholar someday may illuminate! :mrgreen:
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 12 Jul 2017 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2017 12:29

There is no institution that I know of working on OIT. If OIT must be institutionalized I agree that existing timeframes must be deconstructed.

My personal view is that if we set out on a pre defined goal that OIT represents the truth, that idea can be accused of searching only for evidence to reach a specific conclusion. That is what many AIT people did. I also feel that "instititionalizing OIT" in the absence of a reasonable body of academic works that support OIT will only expose the idea to debilitating criticism.

However I do believe that OIT of many things, including possibly language can be shown to be a credible possibility using the massive amount of literature that is available, but taking down AIT from its current well accepted state is my only focus. There is some suggestion of OIT that I have sensed but that information is worthless until it is collected and collated into a coherent argument.

An institution to research the idea would require a body of dedicated people willing to fight on linguistic turf because AIT linguists have surrounded themselves with a chakravyuha of linguistic gobbledygook. But language aside we could reclaim astronomy, maths the Panchatantra and some aspects of neuroscience but all these are outside my expertise or interest

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SriJoy » 12 Jul 2017 12:32

syam wrote:
SriJoy wrote:No institution supports OOI.
~~~~~~

Ok then. It is time to start one of our own. And give guest lectures where ever it is possible and publish papers.


Indeed. But as i said, to institutionalize OOI, we need a far more mature and credible methodology than displayed here. As long as OOI wanders back to 'it says so in our holy books' as reasoning,it will never gain traction amongst academia and be nothing more than hinduism (religion) lurking behind the surface, pushing its own religion as fact- sort of the same way why no institution will touch '5000 year old earth and global flood theory' of the Ark project with a ten foot pole.

Also, guest lectures will have to come from credible sources of authority. Meaning professionals. So people like Shiv, who is a doctor (medicine), me, who is an engineer cum techie, Sanjeev Sanyal, who is an economist etc. will not cut the mustard.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 12 Jul 2017 12:47

JE Menon wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVjvhcO-7Lg
There are some sarcastic hits on NRIs, but she's fantastic. The spirit. It is coming back.


Thank you! want her to speak more tamilized angrezi -
I was rolling on the floor onlee with the comment on the Chinese Ambi's (pun intended) name :rotfl:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 12 Jul 2017 13:05

SriJoy wrote:
syam wrote:See your above post. You still didn't answer the origin part. We are discussing about origins. Not where the horse trotted.

@Dipankar , you too. The origin of Horse is still debatable.


Ok. Archaelogically we have Arabian horse in Assyria, decisively, from 1200 BC period. So why should we consider origin myths of people who came much later (Jews, who did not write the OT till 900-800 BC) as the 'origin story' ?
that myth about Solomon getting a gift, is as credible as stealing ' Huwawa, the God of seven shimmering auras, slain by Gilgamesh' from the far older Sumerians. Unless of course, you think Huwawa= Yahweh (name of Jewish God) and 'seven auras of Huwawa = seven heavens and seven hells' is all just a big coincidence.


Since we are talking about the Ashuras (Assyrians ;-)) lets make sure we know the king names from the four periods:
Early_Assyrian_Period
Old_Assyrian_Period
Middle_Assyrian_Period
Neo-Assyrian_Period

The Assyrians predated the Arabs and please correct me if I am wrong - they had the Arab tribes as vassals..
Till the tables were turned and they are still tearing each other apart today...

wiki wrote:The Arabs appear to have been under the vassalage of the Neo-Assyrian Empire (911–612 BC), and the succeeding Neo-Babylonian (626–539 BC), Achaemenid (539–332 BC), Seleucid and Parthian empires.


wiki wrote:"Arab tribes, most notably the Ghassanids and Lakhmids, begin to appear in the southern Syrian Desert from the mid 3rd century CE onward, during the mid to later stages of the Roman and Sasanian empires"


That the numerals were considered Arabic and now Hindu (or pusillanimously "Hindu-Arabic" for the PC chicken hearted)
merits looking at the "arabian horse manure" in greater detail.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SriJoy » 12 Jul 2017 13:36

Pulikeshi wrote:
SriJoy wrote:
Ok. Archaelogically we have Arabian horse in Assyria, decisively, from 1200 BC period. So why should we consider origin myths of people who came much later (Jews, who did not write the OT till 900-800 BC) as the 'origin story' ?
that myth about Solomon getting a gift, is as credible as stealing ' Huwawa, the God of seven shimmering auras, slain by Gilgamesh' from the far older Sumerians. Unless of course, you think Huwawa= Yahweh (name of Jewish God) and 'seven auras of Huwawa = seven heavens and seven hells' is all just a big coincidence.


Since we are talking about the Ashuras (Assyrians ;-)) lets make sure we know the king names from the four periods:
Early_Assyrian_Period
Old_Assyrian_Period
Middle_Assyrian_Period
Neo-Assyrian_Period

The Assyrians predated the Arabs and please correct me if I am wrong - they had the Arab tribes as vassals..
Till the tables were turned and they are still tearing each other apart today...


I am not convinced that Assyrians were the 'asuras' per se. Sure, they were the most brutal of empire-builders (fits with Asuras) and their name is a close cognate, but Iranians make a better case for being 'Asuras', since 'Ahuras' are the Iranian deities while Daevas are their demons- exact opposite of Hinduism. In anycase, there is little to show Arabs all the way down in Yemen/Hejaz region were vassals of the Assyrians/Babylonians/Persians etc. Its he arabs in the Persian gulf (arabian side) and northern Saudi arabia that were vassals.

That the numerals were considered Arabic and now Hindu (or pusillanimously "Hindu-Arabic" for the PC chicken hearted)
merits looking at the "arabian horse manure" in greater detail.


I agree. Arabian horse is a misnomer, it should be the mesopotamian/Assyrian horse. I suspect that it was a case of European scholarship calling it Arabian horse when European academia exploded in overdrive in 17th century, as then,Europe did not know about Assyria outside of hazy references in the bible (Assyrian artefacts were not discovered till 19th century).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2017 14:34

Schmidt wrote:Shiv ji , it might be possible that Tamil developed out of Kannada

But is there any Kannada literature comparable to Tamil sangam works that are dated back to 300 BC , in their scope of work , as well as sheer beauty ??

Or did all the Kannada writers switch to composing in Tamil en masse

This is outside of my sphere of expertise and I really should not comment any more bar "what I have heard from a friend whom I trust"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2017 14:46

Pulikeshi wrote:Rice - if you do a dictionary or wiki search claims the following origin: Middle English: from Old French ris, from Italian riso, from Greek oruza .
Where as any one who knows Tamil recognizes the word "Arici" (அரிசி) - so why is Greek picking up a Dravidian word? :P

I vaguely recall an article that stated that the word rice originated from the Tamil word. The Spanish and Portuguese words are similar - "arroz"

I get a big kick out of the variable usage of the terms "sor" and "chor" for cooked rice. Cunning linguists made a huge song and dance about "Satem" and "Centum" based on these imaginary "sound changes" . These buggers have been allowed to get away for too long. As regards the "sound change" of S to H between Sanskrit and the Zoroastrian language (which I refuse to call by the fake name Avestan) - There are parts of Gujarat with the same local Gujjus who have this S to H sound change. So much for theories of gradual evolution of language families.

That said the same "sound changes" of S to H from India to Iran actually extends all the way to Greece. But it's not there in neighbouring Rome. Sarpa-Herpes, Sindhu-Hindu etc. The Romans were quite happy to say "Serpent" and English was happy to accept that. I simply must quote again from my notes about these cunning linguists

A research study by linguist Angela Marcantonio actually showed how PIE
has frequently been built up using circular reasoning of this type and anomalies and contradictions
are explained by creating more and more “rules”.
A review of Marcantonio’s observations by Spanish linguist Jesus Sanches notes, “In some cases
the number of rules equals the number of forms This is how the corpus of PIE reconstructions has
grown in the last 150 years: by a cumulative amount of laws, many of them designed 'ad hoc'.
What is the use of a law, e.g. Grimm's Law, if it is immediately followed by new laws, e.g. Verner's,
to make it tenable? Marcantonio sees the adjustable parameters of PIE laws as an indication of
circularity.


Another chap called Jay Jasanoff writes:
“No less important than what linguistic evidence can do is what it cannot do. It cannotprovide us
with fixed dates or absolute chronologies [..] The nineteenth and early twentieth-century scholars
created the myth of the “Aryans” committed every possible methodological error in leaping from
Proto-Indo-European to the Proto-Indo-Europeans — the error of confusing language with “race”;
of uncritically ascribing language spread to violent conquest; of attributing conquest to racial
superiority; and of selectively interpreting the material evidence to locate the IE homeland where
their prejudices led them to expect it.
Current-day reimaginings of the past are usually more subtle.
But the use of linguistic data to support prehistoric scenarios of conquest or ownership, often with
an ethnic or national bias, remains surprisingly common. Linguistically literate readers should be
prepared to correct for this practice when they encounter it.


bloody linguists... :x

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 12 Jul 2017 18:52

Primus ji,
1)You are right about the afghan-pakjabi relationship.
2)The brahmana gotras are in general named after the mantra drshtaas/rishis of vedas.Is that the case in your community?This is really tangential to the general tenor of my post.The 'exclusivism' of the said community need not be linked to migration/invasion.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 12 Jul 2017 19:46

svenkat wrote:Interestengly dravida,andhra,karnata,gurjara and maharashtra are the five 'sub sects' of pancha dravida.Dravida has a generic and particular meaning here.

Svenkat ji

Do you know where these descriptions occur? (References that is)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 12 Jul 2017 19:48

^^^
Isn't Sanskrit word for RICE is 'Vrihi'? 'Vari' in Telagu?(I was told).

'Vari' in marathi for grain similar to 'rice'.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 12 Jul 2017 19:56

Shiv writes..

A research study by linguist Angela Marcantonio actually showed how PIE
has frequently been built up using circular reasoning of this type and anomalies and contradictions
are explained by creating more and more “rules”.
A review of Marcantonio’s observations by Spanish linguist Jesus Sanches notes, “In some cases
the number of rules equals the number of forms This is how the corpus of PIE reconstructions has
grown in the last 150 years: by a cumulative amount of laws, many of them designed 'ad hoc'.
What is the use of a law, e.g. Grimm's Law, if it is immediately followed by new laws, e.g. Verner's,
to make it tenable? Marcantonio sees the adjustable parameters of PIE laws as an indication of
circularity.

I had a pleasure of listening to her at 'River Sarasvati conference' at Kurukshetra University. My paper (presenting work of Sue Sullivan - IVC script dictionary) was immediately after Angela Marcantonio's presentation, and I did refer to her work and made comments of the effect, quoting her, work, how linguists pulled new rules, out of their AXX, to explain the stuff, so as to stick to their preconceived notions and nonsensical theories.

Few linguists, present in the audience, remained stone-faced. Many did not approach me during the rest of the conference, who otherwise were having friendly chat with me during early part of the day.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jul 2017 20:17

Ahem!
Ashuras (Assyrians

Based on the most current research from Ulan Bator U (uBU) Department of Linguistic Anthropogenic Biogas and Uncertainty Generation, we must point to the obvious.

ASSURA == (what we genteelly refer to as "Oiseule")
Adjective or noun, denoting person possessed of great Managerial and Political skills. "Academic Adminitrator". "Corporate/Academic Climber". "Chaired Professor of Sanskrit in Ivy League University". "Senior Journalist for The HUNDI".

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 12 Jul 2017 20:55

Nilesh Oak ji,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancha-Dravida

There are claims in this article that the references are found in Kalhana,Skanda Purana,maratha era records.

I have seen these accounts in 'magazines'/books published by orthodox people and bought/read by similar people.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 12 Jul 2017 21:12

https://mahaperiyavaa.blog/2012/10/26/rare-photo-of-isayanur-paati-kasi/

This photograph was taken at the time of bhikshapradana to the panchagoudiya yatis at varanasi ( October 1934).

I have seen a similar photo of Kanchi periyava(who was a bastion of orthodoxy in TN) with panchadravida sanyasis at kashi.

Let alone brahmanas,there were panchadravida yatis in kashi.


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