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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 20 Sep 2017 07:36

syam wrote:
I am decided to stick to my theory. It is Indian empire.Not Greek.

New stuff to me and I have no reason to doubt what you say. But my effort is on an era that pre-dates Greek history by 2000 to 3000 years. In fact this entire thread starts off from the viewpoint of India prior to 1000 BC

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 20 Sep 2017 11:05

shiv wrote:New stuff to me and I have no reason to doubt what you say. But my effort is on an era that pre-dates Greek history by 2000 to 3000 years. In fact this entire thread starts off from the viewpoint of India prior to 1000 BC

The so called Roman empire was built on the ruins of Hindu empire. Historians lied about Greek role.

After Alexander failed attempt to conquer India, Centrlal/west Asia had gone through Dharmic phase. At the time, we had only Jainism and Buddhism in India. We may not find any traces of Hinduism because Hinduism was in different shape back then. Historians paint it as the so called Hellenism. This is also fat lie. It was nothing but a form of Hinduism.

When Seleucid Empire fallen, all was lost. Our Dharmic religion got assimilated into local cultures. There is reason why Jews didn't accept Jesus. Jews are the only people who didn't absorb our religion completely and survived. But they were confined to very small pockets of Middle East. On other hand, Christianity aka former Hellenism became official religion of Roman Empire. Because it was popular in former Greek empire. People at the time completely hooked on Hellenism.

Above is premise of my theory.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Sep 2017 17:42

Worth a careful read:
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/rabbits-w ... nd-science
Rabbits, World Maps And Mahabharata: Seeking The Truth Through Tradition And Science

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby KrishnaK » 22 Sep 2017 04:19

A_Gupta wrote:Worth a careful read:
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/rabbits-w ... nd-science
Rabbits, World Maps And Mahabharata: Seeking The Truth Through Tradition And Science

Excellent article.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 22 Sep 2017 05:49

sudarshan wrote:
nadInAM parvatAnA.n cha nAmadheyAni sa~njaya .
tathA janapadAnA.n cha ye chAnye bhUmimAshritAH .. 1..\\
pramANa.n cha pramANaGYa pR^ithivyA api sarvashaH .
nikhilena samAchakShva kAnanAni cha sa~njaya .. 2..\\
pa~nchemAni mahArAja mahAbhUtAni sa~NgrahAt .
jagatsthitAni sarvANi samAnyAhurmanIShiNaH .. 3..\\
bhUmirApastathA vAyuragnirAkAshameva cha .
guNottarANi sarvANi teShAM bhUmiH pradhAnataH .. 4..\\
shabdaH sparshashcha rUpa.n cha raso gandhashcha pa~nchamaH .
bhUmerete guNAH proktA R^iShibhistattvavedibhiH .. 5..\\
chatvAro.apsu guNA rAjangandhastatra na vidyate .
shabdaH sparshashcha rUpa.n cha tejaso.atha guNAstrayaH .
shabdaH sparshashcha vAyostu AkAshe shabda eva cha .. 6..\\
ete pa~ncha guNA rAjanmahAbhUteShu pa~nchasu .
vartante sarvalokeShu yeShu lokAH pratiShThitAH .. 7..\\
anyonyaM nAbhivartante sAmyaM bhavati vai yadA .
yadA tu viShamIbhAvamAvishanti parasparam .
tadA dehairdehavanto vyatirohanti nAnyathA .. 8..\\
AnupUrvyAdvinashyanti jAyante chAnupUrvashaH .
sarvANyaparimeyAni tadeShA.n rUpamaishvaram .. 9..\\
tatra tatra hi dR^ishyante dhAtavaH pA~ncha bhautikAH .
teShAM manuShyAstarkeNa pramANAni prachakShate .. 10..\\
achintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tA.nstarkeNa sAdhayet .
prakR^itibhyaH para.n yattu tadachintyasya lakShaNam .. 11..\\
sudarshanaM pravakShyAmi dvIpa.n te kurunandana .
parimaNDalo mahArAja dvIpo.asau chakrasa.nsthitaH .. 12..\\
nadI jalapratichchhannaH parvataishchAbhrasaMnibhaiH .
puraishcha vividhAkArai ramyairjanapadaistathA .. 13..\\
vR^ikShaiH puShpaphalopetaiH sampannadhanadhAnyavAn .
lAvaNena samudreNa samantAtparivAritaH .. 14..\\
yathA cha puruShaH pashyedAdarshe mukhamAtmanaH .
eva.n sudarshana dvIpo dR^ishyate chandramaNDale .. 15..\\
dviraMshe pippalastatra dviraMshe cha shasho mahAn .

sarvauShadhisamAvApaiH sarvataH parivR^i.nhitaH .
Apastato.anyA viGYeyA eSha sa~NkShepa uchyate .. 16..\\


http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/txt/06.txt

I found those verses in the Bhishma parva - see link above. If you look at the earth "upside down" (in the traditional sense of north being up and south being down, that we're all used to from cartography) from space or from the moon, there really is a distinct rabbit-face which comes from Africa. I'll post a picture to make this clear. No, google maps or other standard maps which render the world in 2-d will not do the trick. It has to be a projection on the face of a sphere, which accounts for the "shrinkage" of the features at the edges - this is a true "from space" view. The pipal leaves part can be seen with some imagination. The point is, that a not-so-educated charioteer like Sanjaya, who was suddenly endowed with divine vision, would indeed see the face(s) of the earth in this "colloquial" fashion, as "rabbit-face and pipal leaves". The "rabbit-face" description is especially astute, as a picture will make clear (when I get around to creating the appropriate spherical projection and posting it).

In the meantime, can somebody knowledgeable in Sanskrit take a shot at translating the above into English? I saw "lavanena samudrena," which seems like a description of land being surrounded by salty oceans. Also, "chandramandale" leads me to believe that the view is described from the moon?


This is the translation I was looking for.

O son of Kuru’s race, I will, however, describe to thee the island called Sudarsana. This island, O king, is circular and of the form of a wheel. It is covered with rivers and other pieces of water and with mountains looking like masses of clouds, and with cities and many delightful provinces. It is also full of trees furnished with flowers and fruits, and with crops of diverse kinds and other wealth. And it is surrounded on all sides with the salt ocean. As a person can see his own face in a mirror, even so is the island called Sudarsana seen in the lunar disc. Two of its parts seem to be a peepul tree, while two others look like a large hare. It is surrounded on all sides with an assemblage of every kind of deciduous plants. Besides these portions, the rest is all water.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 22 Sep 2017 08:42

The problem created by attempting to force-fit ancient texts into the framework of current knowledge is the same as that created by the likes of Max Muller and others "translating the Vedas" to fit their worldview

Hinduism is like a fractured ceramic artwork whose structure is derived from the Vedas, and trying to fit the fragments into shapes that we recognise and relate to today like continents or vimanas is possible because there are millions of fragments - but we have failed to look at the original template in reconstructions.

At the core the Vedas are an exploration of the universe by introspection and meditation and arrive at a "grand unified" explanation of the entire universe as the product of a consciousness that creates it. Remove the consciousness and the universe cease to exist - or to rephrase that, human consciousness itself is a series of blinkers and blinds that allow the perception of certain things and disallow many other things that constitute the entire universe. Shiva's "third eye" opens to remove the blinkers and blinds , shows the entire universe as one whole and therefore destroys the impression we have of reality around us -a reality that is temporary and restricted to earth in the few decades we spend as humans.

Even by the time of Sayana (13th century AD) much of this spiritual basis of Hindu thought had been forgotten - to the extent that Sayana's own interpretation of the Vedas restricted itself to the superficial meanings of the words of the Vedas and associated ritual without touching upon the spiritual core that would be evident from earlier scholars such as Yaska. It was Sayana's work that was translated in a London library by Max Muller

There exist some seriously scholarly works in English (that read like mumbojumbo unless you are primed in the subject) that explore the concept of the Vedas as "sounds" and what types of meditation and yoga discipline one would have to perform before passing beyond the mere five human senses to sensing say what a tree or the ocean "senses". What I have written would sound like a load of bullshit - but people have spent some serious time and effort on this over centuries and there is something there that should not be discarded as the rants of savages.

But the Vedas start as a spiritual spring for Hindus and later developments include sciences such as maths, yoga, linguistics, astronomy and psychology all taught in one package. Along the way ritual worship gets included and with the "true God" being the entire all encompassing Universe that all existence is made from - worship of almost anything is valid for Hindus as long as the reality is acknowledged that all existence is just a manifestation of a supreme consciousness that defines everything.

But things have degenerated so much - ie the ceramic artwork has splintered so much, that the above basis for Hindu thought is now forgotten and people are left with "elephant headed Gods" and "Many armed goddess with blood in her mouth, trampling on a child". Hindus are unable to explain this and clutch at ridiculous explanations and rationalizations.

The role of priests would have been to explain the basis of ritual in Hindu dharma but even the priests - barring a few are unable to do that. In fact I can gave a reasonable rational explanation of the worship of Ganesh on Ganesh chaturthi - but that is OT - I won't do that, but I bring up the subject to point out how the "murti" (or that ba$tard word "idol") of Ganesh fits into the overall spiritual basis of Hindu worship. One of the things that our education in western science blinds us to is the fact that the Hindu past is so old that many layers have been added on and many people have no idea of what is what. It is a testament to the robustness of the concepts of dharma and righteouness that they have survived so long but again that is OT.

As an aside there are several Greek philosophers who have defined reality and the world as a manifestation of a supreme consciousness - all dating from eras that are very recent indicating cultural exchange between India and Greece in a pre-historic past. But since it is not recorded it does not exist according to Einstein-putras we sometimes get on here.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Sep 2017 23:35

An historic novel for period 1766 CE that also talks of Indrajit and Ramayana and refers to timeline of 13th millennium BCE

The Land of Seekers by Triveen Nair

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075SX53BN/re ... iveen+Nair
Last edited by Nilesh Oak on 23 Sep 2017 01:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yayavar » 23 Sep 2017 01:32

KrishnaK wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Worth a careful read:
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/rabbits-w ... nd-science
Rabbits, World Maps And Mahabharata: Seeking The Truth Through Tradition And Science

Excellent article.


Thanks for posting this. Good points in the article. One reason for objecting to 'Rana won Haldighati' is on similar lines. Do correct and fix, analyse and educate but there is no need for exaggerated attempts to justify earlier knowledge. For Rana it should focus on how he still fought back after that battle and eventually had all of Mewar (except Chittor) not a battle he had to retreat from even if it was an organised retreat.

There are other areas to consider - if ancient science is an interest then why not discuss the Indian view on atomicity or particles (Kananda), or heliocentric view, or other achievements. An objective view will create a more positive impact on younger desis and world, rather than fanciful attempts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 23 Sep 2017 01:44

Yayavar wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:Excellent article.


Thanks for posting this. Good points in the article. One reason for objecting to 'Rana won Haldighati' is on similar lines. Do correct and fix, analyse and educate but there is no need for exaggerated attempts to justify earlier knowledge. For Rana it should focus on how he still fought back after that battle and eventually had all of Mewar (except Chittor) not a battle he had to retreat from even if it was an organised retreat.

There are other areas to consider - if ancient science is an interest then why not discuss the Indian view on atomicity or particles (Kananda), or heliocentric view, or other achievements. An objective view will create a more positive impact on younger desis and world, rather than fanciful attempts.

+108

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2017 07:20

Yayavar wrote:There are other areas to consider - if ancient science is an interest then why not discuss the Indian view on atomicity or particles (Kananda), or heliocentric view, or other achievements. An objective view will create a more positive impact on younger desis and world, rather than fanciful attempts.

I think the west had it easier for historic reasons. The separation of church and state and the "secularization" of governments made it easier for science to challenge church beliefs and overturn them if necessary. It is another matter that science went too far and rejected things that scientists should have been more circumspect about

In India - there is no separation between science and religion-related belief. I will use a rather harsh example from medicine. On the one hand India has developed kick-ass concepts of personal hygiene like washing up before eating or after crapping and other concepts. On the other hand these have not been separated from other beliefs that have been allowed to creep in - rarely but tragically like anointing the fresh-cut umbilical cord of a newborn with unsterile stuff including cowdung.

I am not saying that everything that does not fit in with modern views should be rejected, but speak only of that which can be shown to be in conformity with modern science.

There are areas of research that are applicable in India that need to be done. Let me bring back a cowdung example. It is traditional in Hindu households to wash the area in front of the front door and then decorate it with rangoli. This washing has the salutary effect of packing the fine dust into the ground and preventing that fine dust from being picked up and kicked up when someone walks into the home. (of course removal of footwear is a great added measure). But smearing cowdung in the front yard actually created a firm dry coating that serves the same purpose. Technically the dust in front of the house will contain bacteria- including those that cause tuberculosis and other diseases. Washing and preventing the raising of dust serves a purpose similar to tiling or concreting that area - but even tiles and concrete will have to be cleaned.

The question that intrigues me is whether the "firming" of flat areas using cowdung makes any difference in the long term to the bacterial flora that can survive in the soil in that area. Unfortunately even our "scientific minds" rarely think in this way. We move from "hey in the villages they do this" right on to modern western subjects of interest in microbiology labs. One gets called superstition and the other science.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Sep 2017 07:33

Isn't it clear by now that the Sapta Sindhu region was primarily a Free Trade Zone, where people removed and discarded the Seals from the consignments coming from all over the place (Afghanistan to Turkestan to Kunming to Myanmar to Odisha to Maharashtra, at least) and put them in boats and sent them for sale to the MidEast?

And this answers the question about why the Vedas were condensed to the Rg Veda form, instead of being left as a sprawled polyglot of separate Rsis' Knowledge Groups: They were making them portable, to be taken by the boatmen who might never come back from a long trip to the savage Middle East.

As for Indus Valley code, I think Dr. Kalyanaraman and Co. seem to be generating more and more results every day, so the code is broken, AFAIK.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Sep 2017 17:05

shiv wrote: On the other hand these have not been separated from other beliefs that have been allowed to creep in - rarely but tragically like anointing the fresh-cut umbilical cord of a newborn with unsterile stuff including cowdung.


How many Indians suffered from peanut or other food allergies?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2017 17:50

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote: On the other hand these have not been separated from other beliefs that have been allowed to creep in - rarely but tragically like anointing the fresh-cut umbilical cord of a newborn with unsterile stuff including cowdung.


How many Indians suffered from peanut or other food allergies?

Lots of this kind of stuff coming out nowadays. One of the oldest known and perhaps the most illustrative examples of evolution and human populations is the resistance to malaria that people with Sickle cell trait have. We live in a biosphere in which science has still not figured out how big a role other life forms play in human health. After struggling for decades people researching disease that pertain to my work are now doing "fecal transplants" where shit from healthy people is introduced into the intestines of people with some diseases. No one know why this works. Everyone knows that it has "something to do with bacteria"

Trying to put human life at the top of a pyramid is (in my view) a form of blindness shown by modern science that is imported straight from the bible that puts man above "lower" beings. The AIT too and the language origin theory owes its origins to biblical beliefs being ported on to what was passed off as science.

Have I ever posted this link on BRF. My generally low profile Facebook presence
https://www.facebook.com/shivsastry/pos ... 3772589826

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 24 Sep 2017 20:52

Has anybody posted this here? The scripts seem remarkably similar.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/easterisl ... valley.htm

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 25 Sep 2017 20:42

shiv wrote:
...
At the core the Vedas are an exploration of the universe by introspection and meditation and arrive at a "grand unified" explanation of the entire universe as the product of a consciousness that creates it.

There exist some seriously scholarly works in English (that read like mumbojumbo unless you are primed in the subject) that explore the concept of the Vedas as "sounds" and what types of meditation and yoga discipline one would have to perform before passing beyond the mere five human senses to sensing say what a tree or the ocean "senses". What I have written would sound like a load of bullshit - but people have spent some serious time and effort on this over centuries and there is something there that should not be discarded as the rants of savages.

...



Thanks. Best BRF post I have read in months.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 26 Sep 2017 00:50

http://www.ecns.cn/2017/09-25/275034.shtml
Copan {Honduras} is the first of the Chinese archaeologists' major foreign explorations. The Temple of Montu in Luxor, Egypt, and the Harappan site of Rakhigarhi in Haryana, India, are prospective destinations. In recent years, China has sent archaeological teams to central, west and southeast Asia, and to Kenya in Africa.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Oct 2017 17:58

A people who think that their history is their identity - most of Europe; a people who think that their belief is their identity - most of the Abrahamic three; a people who thought that what they did, not what they believed or what their history was, was their identity - the ancient Hindu. That is why there is no Herodotus or Thucydides, and the exploits of the great monarchs has gone into oblivion.

The modern Hindu needs history as a defensive weapon, just like India needs nukes; but the modern Hindu should not make the mistake of confusing history and identity.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Misra » 01 Oct 2017 19:48

^ it could be argued that indians of the past strove to shun identification (ahamkara) or at least to expand it to be as large/inclusive as possible (hence the many sublime mantras such as ‘all the universe is one’). the systems developed to do so emphasized a) recognizing the enormous role that memory (or ‘history’ in its largest sense) played in limiting an individual and b) eradicating consciously the boundaries resulting from an accumulation of such memory (or karma, really).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gerard » 02 Oct 2017 05:14

Unlocking thread.
SriJoy cleanup completed

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 03 Oct 2017 16:44

A_Gupta wrote:A people who think that their history is their identity - most of Europe; a people who think that their belief is their identity - most of the Abrahamic three; a people who thought that what they did, not what they believed or what their history was, was their identity - the ancient Hindu. That is why there is no Herodotus or Thucydides, and the exploits of the great monarchs has gone into oblivion.

The modern Hindu needs history as a defensive weapon, just like India needs nukes; but the modern Hindu should not make the mistake of confusing history and identity.

+108

This is what Vinoba called 'Living history...and geography, too'

I am paraphrasing his thoughts below...

Puranas can be seen in that light. It was experience and interpretation of the individuals of that time. This of course does not mean 'post modernist nonsense of infinite interpretations but somehow their interpretation is the better one'. Objective criteria should still apply. At the same time, one's individual place - historical or geographical, can be the starting point of narration, or center of the universe from where study of Itihas/bhugol can begin.

What chronology does is provides a context.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 03 Oct 2017 23:21

This guy make reference to Sundar Kand mentioning species of Elephants which have been extinct for long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7OBuLLmj0&t=512s
Last edited by Prem on 03 Oct 2017 23:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 03 Oct 2017 23:35

Prem wrote:This guy make reference to Sundar Kand mentioning species of Elephants which have been extincts for long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7OBuLLmj0&t=512s


It is true that 'Gomphothere' existed for millions of years. It is also true that they existed on earth, including south and southeast asia until end of Pleistocene (10,000 BCE) and fossil evidence exist for their presence in late Pleistocene.

Thus there presence some million years ago DOES NOT provide a lower limit of 900,000 years ago as claimed by the speaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomphothere

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 Oct 2017 05:40

While on the topic of fake history, take a look at the work of Dennis Rawlins, debunker.
http://www.dioi.org/hoa.htm

Some may find this (around the discovery of Neptune) to be interesting:
http://www.dioi.org/kn/neptune/index.htm

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 04 Oct 2017 17:31

A_Gupta wrote:While on the topic of fake history, take a look at the work of Dennis Rawlins, debunker.
http://www.dioi.org/hoa.htm

Some may find this (around the discovery of Neptune) to be interesting:
http://www.dioi.org/kn/neptune/index.htm

Excellent.

When time permits, I am considering sending my works to Dennis Rawlins for his critique.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 Oct 2017 19:06

Know your opponent.
http://www.dioi.org/vols/w23.pdf
F2 The cause of the dreary paucity of original thought in certain scholarship areas' public discourse is self­ evident:

[a] One will not be listened to unless one possesses power.

[b] One cannot attain power without laboring mightily towards its possession.

[c] But this very effort so wipes out one's time&energy, that there's insufficient left over for original thought.

[d] Upshot: the power operator labors for decades to get into a position where he can put over his new ideas and by the time he's got the power to do so, he has no substantial new ideas.

F3 When an academic biggie­ editor & a productive scholar clash: the funniest item, in the bag of standard tactics used to damn the scholar, is the canard that he's inherently Impossible. (Which may be strictly translated: he won't kiss editors' hands, feet, or brains. For archons long spoiled by routine assent, flattery & bended knee: non-genuflection is Rebellion.) Common­sense­ time: who gets his jollies, not from scholarly creativity, but
through power games, fights, sadism, etc. -- an editor or a scholar?

F4 Continuing a point raised in DIO 1.1 (z1 fn 12, xC7, xC12), the base reason that politically­ motivated academic gangs systematically refuse to give ANY credit to an "enemy" is: every discovery, publicly assigned to that person, enhances his stature -- which thus makes him a more formidable opponent. So: truth & equity be damned -- the sort of ethics & priority ­perspective one used to associate with gutter­ level mobsters, not scholars.
But, in certain academic areas, the difference is increasingly blurred.

F5 When publicly asserting an unwelcome truth, it is tempting to try working Within­ The­ System, since this is more pleasant and implicitly optimistic. However, [a] The more receptive The System is, the less important the issue. [b] The most important issue is: The System itself.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 06 Oct 2017 15:22

Nilesh Oak wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:While on the topic of fake history, take a look at the work of Dennis Rawlins, debunker.
http://www.dioi.org/hoa.htm

Some may find this (around the discovery of Neptune) to be interesting:
http://www.dioi.org/kn/neptune/index.htm

Excellent.

When time permits, I am considering sending my works to Dennis Rawlins for his critique.


This is what I wrote to DIO...

Hello,

I am reader of DIO and thoroughly enjoy reading it.

I wrote a book in 2011, after researching on the astronomy evidence within an ancient epic (The Mahabharata).

Based on one reference it can be deduced that the events described in it could have only occurred before 4508 BCE or only after 11091 BCE.

I have looked at more than 200 specific observations/references from the epic, however I felt the claim made in chapter 6 (reg. Alcor and Mizar and Alcor walking ahead of Mizar at the time of epic) is relatively straightforward and thus easy to critique.

Would appreciate your feedback. I am enclosing the PDF of my book. The book is available on Amazon, in paperback and in Kindle.

Warm regards,

Nilesh Oak



Dennis Rawlins responded....

2017/10/5
Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.
DR

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 07 Oct 2017 10:14


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 07 Oct 2017 20:49

Nilesh Oak wrote:Dennis Rawlins responded....

2017/10/5
Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.
DR


Pity. We'll need to find/develop desi expertise.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 08 Oct 2017 01:18

DIO: Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.


How is this "Indian astronomy"?? Isn't the whole point that the astronomical observations are supported by modern "western astronomy"? Maybe these findings should be publish bereft of context first before throwing in the context

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 08 Oct 2017 05:59

periaswamy wrote:
DIO: Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.


How is this "Indian astronomy"?? Isn't the whole point that the astronomical observations are supported by modern "western astronomy"? Maybe these findings should be publish bereft of context first before throwing in the context


Right, astronomy is astronomy, no "Indian" or "western" about it. And besides, if they're going to be particular about the brand of astronomy, then they should be aware that this is based on NASA JPL data and the Voyager software, which should be "western" enough for them. Maybe I'm reading too much into the reply, but it seems condescending - "no one here knows about *your* arcane astronomy, so good luck and thanks for your interest in *our* astronomy."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 08 Oct 2017 06:45

but it seems condescending - "no one here knows about *your* arcane astronomy, so good luck and thanks for your interest in *our* astronomy."


Yes, I agree.There are surely other ways to spread the message without the attestation of these pompous wankers in the DIO. The other lesson here is that all of these results have to be presented devoid of context, as in "did star X and star Y reverse positions in the last Z years"....in which case all of these science dorks would be glad to guffaw at the stupidity of the question..."of course it reversed position...this can be easily verified by NASA software".

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Oct 2017 20:57

periaswamy wrote:
DIO: Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.


How is this "Indian astronomy"?? Isn't the whole point that the astronomical observations are supported by modern "western astronomy"? Maybe these findings should be publish bereft of context first before throwing in the context

Your are correct. This has nothing to do with Indian astronomy.

Of course DIO is focused on a different (although very relevant) issue. My guess, it does not fit with their objective and/or limitation of manpower.
--
Side bar

All the anti-India (read videshi Indology and their brown sepoys) simply choose to not respond to me or my provocations because they don't want to admit their failures.

--
I am open to others publishing these findings bereft of context, if they choose to (of course with appropriate attribution). As far as I am concerned, my time is too constrained to focus on 30+ new projects and have no latitude to spend any time on gaining endorsement or approval from other organizations. These do have a value. Unfortunately only 24 hours in a day.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Oct 2017 21:28

A_Gupta wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:Dennis Rawlins responded....



Pity. We'll need to find/develop desi expertise.

Desi expertise is not a problem. Many (from Indic researchers to layperson) have tested and validating the findings of my books (some of them have done it using multiple different software or manual mathematical calculations).

The issue is good number of prominent history researchers (famous names, academics or folks with influence) are either incapable of comprehending any of this and/or stuck in their new (happy) timeline of ~3000 BCE!

--
Of course, new support is coming, slowly but surely, from great influencing individuals and this will only grow with time. Of course that means, the progress will be slow.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 09 Oct 2017 00:18

3000 BCE is a step up for these people. They were stuck with Vedas being ~1500 BCE before. So they're about half-way from 1500 BCE to 5565 BCE for the MB.

But if enough of a critical mass builds behind the astronomical (no pun intended) date for the MB or Ramayana, then the "eminence" and fame of these academics will work against them. They will get labeled as old-fashioned sticks in the mud, and the "rebel" status of the new date will carry it through. Lay folks find a delightful charm in having the established academics proved wrong - part of the reason why Einstein entered the popular lore to such an extent.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Oct 2017 07:05

periaswamy wrote:
DIO: Sadly, no one at DIO is expert on Indian astronomy. But good luck in finding such and thanks for your interest.


How is this "Indian astronomy"?? Isn't the whole point that the astronomical observations are supported by modern "western astronomy"? Maybe these findings should be publish bereft of context first before throwing in the context


Remember, astronomy is an empirical science, not logic or mathematics. From what I understand, DIO looks at the text accompanying the astronomy. That is how, e.g., they figured out that Ptolemy plagiarized Hipparchus's data. Further, in some cases, one had to understand just how the observation was made. One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today. Historical astronomy is not just pure astronomical observation data. That is why there is an Indian astronomy, Babylonian astronomy, Galilean astronomy, etc. etc. etc.

E.g., on the precession of the equinoxes, there are two issues, (a) are the observations correct? and (b) what was the mechanism by which knowledge passed down the necessary long periods of time that humans with minimal instrumentation need in order to make a correct determination of the precession?

or, e.g., to quote someone on the accuracy of ancient instruments,
To discover successfully how to use an ancient instrument the modern navigator needs to put themselves in a situation where that is the only instrument available and there are no other outside influences.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 09 Oct 2017 08:36

a_gupta: Further, in some cases, one had to understand just how the observation was made. One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today.


The reference to the arundhati and vasishta stars was an observations in the Mahabharata did not involve any calculations-- just the relative positions of the stars. How does that involve any astronomical calculations?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 09 Oct 2017 16:03

periaswamy wrote:
a_gupta: Further, in some cases, one had to understand just how the observation was made. One may have to reproduce a calculation in the way it was originally made, not how one might do it today.


The reference to the arundhati and vasishta stars was an observations in the Mahabharata did not involve any calculations-- just the relative positions of the stars. How does that involve any astronomical calculations?

This is correct. Even in empirical science, one can simply focus on if certain claim is factually correct and then wonder how someone might have figured it out. As opposed to illogical method of eternally arguing in speculative fashion, how someone in that much antiquity (without even knowing the antiquity) could have figured out such a precise observation.....etc..

On the other hand, likes of Late Prof. David Pingree (Professor of exact sciences, Brown University) have generated utter nonsense, due to lethal combination of ulterior bias towards Indian astronomy and poor comprehension - about ancient Indian observations, nakshatra system but even the very method of scientific discovery, about ancient Indian astronomy observations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 09 Oct 2017 18:47

The observations of the moon or planets being in various nakshatras also do not involve any calculations. Plus observations like "five planets were seen lined up in the late evening sky." Or observations of eclipses. Or things like "Bhima and Arjuna wielding their weapons seemed like two bright stars in the sky overhead surrounded by smaller stars." The MB abounds with observations like these, which involve no calculations whatsoever, anybody who can identify the planets and/or nakshatras can make these observations. In many cases, anybody who can look up at the night sky and see bright stars vs. dim stars, can make these observations. Then there are seasonal observations (preparations for winter, or ponds being full after seasonal rains), which any layman can make.

Plus with the moon, the nakshatra system is set up in such a way that the moon will move by one nakshatra per day. No detailed calculations involved here either. Positions of the sun might need calculations, but the earth's period is regular and predictable, so the calculations don't have to be detailed.

On the whole, very little calculation involved, the observations are pretty direct and straight-forward.

Calculation is needed for prediction, such as with panchangs. It is here that one can talk of Hindu vs. Greek vs. Babylonian astronomy. For reporting of field observations like in the MB or Ramayana, all you need is a knowledge of the night sky, which is easy to acquire. Even I can go out and identify the phase of the moon - panchami or ashtami or whatever, and also tell whether it is the dark phase or bright phase (krishna paksha/shukla paksha) - just by looking at it, and being aware of the time of the night (i.e., late evening, midnight, or early morning). Very easy to train one's internal neural networks to do this.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 09 Oct 2017 19:12

sudarshan wrote:The observations of the moon or planets being in various nakshatras also do not involve any calculations. Plus observations like "five planets were seen lined up in the late evening sky." Or observations of eclipses. Or things like "Bhima and Arjuna wielding their weapons seemed like two bright stars in the sky overhead surrounded by smaller stars." The MB abounds with observations like these, which involve no calculations whatsoever, anybody who can identify the planets and/or nakshatras can make these observations. In many cases, anybody who can look up at the night sky and see bright stars vs. dim stars, can make these observations. Then there are seasonal observations (preparations for winter, or ponds being full after seasonal rains), which any layman can make.

Plus with the moon, the nakshatra system is set up in such a way that the moon will move by one nakshatra per day. No detailed calculations involved here either. Positions of the sun might need calculations, but the earth's period is regular and predictable, so the calculations don't have to be detailed.

On the whole, very little calculation involved, the observations are pretty direct and straight-forward.

Calculation is needed for prediction, such as with panchangs. It is here that one can talk of Hindu vs. Greek vs. Babylonian astronomy. For reporting of field observations like in the MB or Ramayana, all you need is a knowledge of the night sky, which is easy to acquire. Even I can go out and identify the phase of the moon - panchami or ashtami or whatever, and also tell whether it is the dark phase or bright phase (krishna paksha/shukla paksha) - just by looking at it, and being aware of the time of the night (i.e., late evening, midnight, or early morning). Very easy to train one's internal neural networks to do this.

+108

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2017 00:28

Nilesh If you have 30+ projects you are like DRDO. Need to focus or frame out the smaller projects to a band of followers.


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