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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 28 Jun 2016 05:12

RajeshA wrote:Published on Feb 05, 2015
By Premendra Priyadarshi
Vedic Indian Migration to Sumer: DNA evidence

Thus we can see that about 8% of the male Marsh Arab population consists of DNAs of Indian origin. When these Indians went there, they were rich with the wealth of cattle and buffalo. They had the bags of rice seeds and the art of cultivating rice. From the female lineage or the mitochondrial DNA side, we find a larger migration from India to Sumer having taken place. Today it is represented in the Marsh Arab population by the presence of the mtDNA U7, R2 and M (Al-Zaheri 2011:12). One particular sample was found to have mtDNA of the type M33a2a (GenBank accession number: JN540042), which is found in the Uttar Pradesh state of India (ibid). Thus the migrations from India were not male exclusive, but they consisted more of the females. This is understandable, because women play a greater role in paddy cultivation as well as buffalo keeping.

Once the Sumer civilization took off with the help of Indian water-buffaloes and rice cultivation in the South Iraq’s marshes, males of some Semitic tribes arrived to live in the area, and married in this community. They could outnumber the original population. This can be noted today by the 72.8% frequency of Hg J-Page08 in the Marsh Arab population in the male lineage side (Y-chromosomal DNA). The scientific examination reveals that this population (J-Page08) expanded in the region at 4.8 years ago, or about 2,800 BC (Al-Zawahri: Table 2 on page 11). They had arrived there from the northwest (Al-Zaheri 2011:Fig 6). We know from the history that a powerful wave of the Semitic speaking people known as the Akkadian arrived in the region and settled just to the north of the Sumerian marshland establishing an empire about the middle of the third millennium. The Hg J-Page08 male DNA could have been the dominant lineage of the Akkadians. Hence we can say that the Semitic arrival, although male alone, was later than the Indian arrival to the region and it outnumbered the original Sumerians genetically and wiped them out linguistically.

Googling for Marsh Arabs I find that the religion followed by some has been given the stupid name Mandaeism. But look st its tenets and tell me - do you see something familiar? I have highlighted stuff that I find familiar - stuff that are fundamentally Hindu concepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism
Fundamental tenets

According to E. S. Drower, the Mandaean Gnosis is characterized by nine features, which appear in various forms in other gnostic sects:[16]

A supreme formless Entity, the expression of which in time and space is creation of spiritual, etheric, and material worlds and beings. Production of these is delegated by It to a creator or creators who originated in It. The cosmos is created by Archetypal Man, who produces it in similitude to his own shape.
Dualism: a cosmic Father and Mother, Light and Darkness, Right and Left, syzygy in cosmic and microcosmic form.
As a feature of this dualism, counter-types, a world of ideas.
The soul is portrayed as an exile, a captive; its home and origin are the supreme Entity, to which the soul eventually returns.
Planets and stars influence fate and human beings, and are also places of detention after death.
A saviour spirit or saviour spirits which assist the soul on the journey through life and after it to 'worlds of light.'
A cult-language of symbol and metaphor. Ideas and qualities are personified.
'Mysteries', i.e. sacraments to aid and purify the soul, to ensure rebirth into a spiritual body, and ascent from the world of matter. These are often adaptations of existing seasonal and traditional rites to which an esoteric interpretation is attached. In the case of the Naṣoreans this interpretation is based upon the Creation story (see 1 and 2), especially on the Divine Man, Adam, as crowned and anointed King-priest.
Great secrecy is enjoined upon initiates; full explanation of 1, 2, and 8 being reserved for those considered able to understand and preserve the gnosis.

Mandaeans believe in marriage and procreation, and in the importance of leading an ethical and moral lifestyle in this world. They also place a high priority upon family life. Consequently, Mandaeans do not practice celibacy or asceticism. Mandaeans will, however, abstain from strong drink and red meat. While they agree with other gnostic sects that the world is a prison governed by the planetary archons, they do not view it as a cruel and inhospitable

shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Aug 2016 07:21

When BRF was down I spent time doing some essential reading that I thought I must do before I make a final push on what I have been writing. Unfortunately I discovered some positive information - but it only adds to the overall burden of writing something useful. I have been reading a book which is a collection of scholarly stuff on the AIT question. The 535 page book is downloadable here
http://vedicilluminations.com/downloads ... istory.pdf

It is obvious from the first few chapters of the book that archaeological evidence alone, without recourse to any genetics or linguistics is enough to knock AIT for a six. No matter what linguists say, or how much we get our chaddies in a manasataramgini-oid twist AIT is dead. Dead.

Archaeology alone shows a continuous inhabitation of Harappan, Indus valley sites from 8000 BC to relatively recent historic times with no changes in culture - just continuity and evolution. Nothing new suddenly came in at any time, and stuff that was found from 2000 BC can still be found today. AIT is dead. But all mysteries are not solved. The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that - but effort put in to diss linguists is wasted effort because linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead. Further arguments about "How to argue against Invasionsists" is a waste fo time IMO

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby wig » 17 Aug 2016 12:06

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/jammu- ... 81161.html

10,500-year-old camping site found in Nubra valley
The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has discovered a 10,500-year-old (8,500 BC) camping site at a height of 14,000 feet en route the Karakoram Pass in Ladakh. There is an evidence of human activity at the camping site for about 800 years.
The site is in the Nubra valley on the way to Saser La which leads to the Karakoram Pass.
While exploring the Nubra valley in 2015-16, Dr SB Ota, Joint DG, ASI, observed both sides of the hill and valley as the serpentine road gradually climbed along the Saser stream. After a distance of around 22 km, there was a section which had been exposed due to road construction.
It was a small flat area with snow-covered peaks on one extreme, dry barren land with loose rocks all around and gushing stream within the deep western gorges, an ideal place for camping in a picturesque setting. A charcoal sample from the site was sent to a lab in Florida, US, for radiocarbon date determination. The site was dated 8,500 BC — the very first for the region.
A team of ASI officials and outside experts inspected the site in July, 2016, and collected more charcoal samples and bones. Preliminary studies of charred bones carried out by Prof PP Joglekar of Deccan Collage, Pune, have shown the presence of gorals and yaks.
The research so far has proved the antiquity and nature of human activities to an extent, but their camping patterns, extent of camping area, tools and other cultural aspects are yet to be traced. The ASI is now planning further archaeological excavations and explorations of the site

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby NRao » 22 Aug 2016 04:06

shiv wrote:......................... The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that


Check out "Yoga Vashishtha" (original one please, not some translations). It provides the origins of the Sanskrit alphabets.


BTW, perhaps OT for this thread, NASA, I am told is about to announce Sanskrit as a natural computer language any day (been hearing "any day" for bout a year now). As a FYI, Sanskrit is the only context free language, I am told, which makes it a great for computers.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 31 Aug 2016 03:51

This debunks Anatolian origin of Indo-European languages. Does not talk about AIT. Presented by Martin W. Lewis and Asya Pereltsvaig, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svinayak » 31 Aug 2016 08:06

here are no Indo-Aryan, Indo-Iranian, Indo-European languages but only the
civilizations and languages and religions existing east and west of Bharatha (India) in the past belonging to the Parsikas (persians), Barbaras (arabs), Airikas (iraqis), Judhas (jews), Yavanas (greeks). Garundas (germans + english), Cinas (chinese), Syamas (Thai), Japakas (japanese) etc Influenced by the Hindu Civilization of India.

The Indians that proclaim Sanskrit as an Indo-european language are Atheists and Converts because they do not want the Hindu civilization of India to ever realize our true glory due to their ego derived from their own beliefs.

GeorgeNathaniel Curzon (1901)
"Powerful Empires existed and flourished in India while Englishmen were
still wandering painted in the woods, and while the British Colonies were a
wilderness and a jungle. India has left a deeper mark upon the history, the
philosophy and the religion of mankind, than any other terrestrial unit in the
universe”

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 08 Sep 2016 16:40

GeorgeNathaniel Curzon (1901)

"Powerful Empires existed and flourished in India while Englishmen were still wandering painted in the woods, and while the British Colonies were a wilderness and a jungle. India has left a deeper mark upon the history, the philosophy and the religion of mankind, than any other terrestrial unit in the universe”


The subtext of Curzon's remarks are - we Englishmen are truly great for having overcome our deficit and for having conquered India. We are superior to Indians and have the right to rule them.

Curzon said this after presiding over an all-India famine that killed millions of people. His tenure is called Curzonshahi {akin to Nadirshahi}.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cu ... ian_famine

It is a common feature of Indians to point to the greatness of their civilization by pointing to statements from people in the West. I've "deconstructed" what Curzon said above. Similarly, one has to remember that intellectuals from the Enlightenment were seeking to overthrow the authority of the Church, and so they praised a pagan culture not out of any true admiration, but as a means of opposing the Church. If they truly admired India, they would have adopted Indian practices, become people of the Ramayana, etc., just like the people in Southeast Asia who truly admired Indians and were truly influenced by them did.

This practice of Indians quoting Western imperialists, I'm sorry to say this so harshly, is like a raped woman taking joy from the fact that the rapist said that she was beautiful. I mean no criticism of the quoter of the comment above, it was and is a common Indian practice to bolster their flagging spirits by using such quotes. But the time for that is over. If you think India is great, and have the energy to keep that so, then India is great. If Indian civilization can be at the forefront of the world, it is great. Otherwise it is not, nonwithstanding flattery from Curzon or Voltaire.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Sep 2016 17:51

^+108. Apt, A Gupta ji.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2016 18:38

A_Gupta wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cu ... ian_famine

It is a common feature of Indians to point to the greatness of their civilization by pointing to statements from people in the West.

This practice of Indians quoting Western imperialists, I'm sorry to say this so harshly, is like a raped woman taking joy from the fact that the rapist said that she was beautiful. I mean no criticism of the quoter of the comment above, it was and is a common Indian practice to bolster their flagging spirits by using such quotes. But the time for that is over. If you think India is great, and have the energy to keep that so, then India is great. If Indian civilization can be at the forefront of the world, it is great. Otherwise it is not, nonwithstanding flattery from Curzon or Voltaire.


In this connection, although OT for this thread
http://www.pragyata.com/mag/effects-of- ... part-1-237
Michel Danino has written the most devastating critique of the so-called 'modern' Indian. Every word rings true.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 09 Sep 2016 21:07

shiv wrote:...The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that - but effort put in to diss linguists is wasted effort because linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead. Further arguments about "How to argue against Invasionsists" is a waste fo time IMO

Origin of Sanskrit search is noble indeed. Though "linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead" is a wrong statement. Simple example. Vedanga Jyotish an ancient astronomical text has configurations of sky which can be reliably dated to before 1000 BC. But on "linguistic evidence" this work has been dated to 4th or even later, century BC. And this linguistic evidence is what is used to date Vedang Jyotish.

We all can say oh we don't believe it but then we will be just the "believers".
A shastrarth requires the other party to be defeated by tark/logic/evidence etc.

Just by declaring that we don't believe you doesnt work.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2016 22:18

peter wrote:
shiv wrote:...The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that - but effort put in to diss linguists is wasted effort because linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead. Further arguments about "How to argue against Invasionsists" is a waste fo time IMO

Origin of Sanskrit search is noble indeed. Though "linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead" is a wrong statement. Simple example. Vedanga Jyotish an ancient astronomical text has configurations of sky which can be reliably dated to before 1000 BC. But on "linguistic evidence" this work has been dated to 4th or even later, century BC. And this linguistic evidence is what is used to date Vedang Jyotish.

We all can say oh we don't believe it but then we will be just the "believers".
A shastrarth requires the other party to be defeated by tark/logic/evidence etc.

Just by declaring that we don't believe you doesnt work.


No it's not like that. If you argue with linguists it is like fighting with a pig - it will pull you down to its level, win on experience and enjoy it also.

I am nowadays finding so much literature that rejects linguistic theories that I am not going to waste my time arguing. Anyone who is interested in seeing linguistic butts being ripped open will find so much to read that they will hardly come to read my work for that purpose. I will probably point out the references that show that linguists theories are being discarded or superceded by other advancements. In fact a lot of this has happened in the last 3 years so there is no point whatsoever in going down that route.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svinayak » 10 Sep 2016 22:35

There are no Indo-Aryan, Indo-Iranian, Indo-European languages but only the
civilizations and languages and religions existing east and west of Bharatha (India) in the past belonging to the Parsikas (persians), Barbaras (arabs), Airikas (iraqis), Judhas (jews), Yavanas (greeks). Garundas (germans + english), Cinas (chinese), Syamas (Thai), Japakas (japanese) etc Influenced by the Hindu Civilization of India.

The Indians that proclaim Sanskrit as an Indo-european language are Atheists and Converts because they do not want the Hindu civilization of India to ever realize our true glory due to their ego derived from their own beliefs.

GeorgeNathaniel Curzon (1901)
"Powerful Empires existed and flourished in India while Englishmen were
still wandering painted in the woods, and while the British Colonies were a
wilderness and a jungle. India has left a deeper mark upon the history, the
philosophy and the religion of mankind, than any other terrestrial unit in the
universe”

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Paarth » 13 Sep 2016 08:02

myth of aryan invasion theory nice documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va0BIqfzpvo

shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2016 08:10

peter wrote:
shiv wrote:...The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that - but effort put in to diss linguists is wasted effort because linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead. Further arguments about "How to argue against Invasionsists" is a waste fo time IMO

Origin of Sanskrit search is noble indeed. Though "linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead" is a wrong statement. Simple example. Vedanga Jyotish an ancient astronomical text has configurations of sky which can be reliably dated to before 1000 BC. But on "linguistic evidence" this work has been dated to 4th or even later, century BC. And this linguistic evidence is what is used to date Vedang Jyotish.

We all can say oh we don't believe it but then we will be just the "believers".
A shastrarth requires the other party to be defeated by tark/logic/evidence etc.

Just by declaring that we don't believe you doesnt work.

You need to watch this video - they make some scathing observations about how linguists do their work - and these people are not even trying to argue for or against AIT. Just calling on the fakeology of linguistics. Long video though..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby pralay » 13 Sep 2016 13:05

MaharathiArjun wrote:myth of aryan invasion theory nice documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va0BIqfzpvo

Good documentary, but the author is possessed with the "Big Wave/tsunamy due to comet strike" theory instead of steady sea rise(although the documentary keeps showing the sea level rise steadyly over thousands of years), and also seems to think manu(who is out of the timeline) has written all vedas and the texts single handedly.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Sep 2016 07:12


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 22 Sep 2016 08:06

Notice this tree in Nature:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 64_F1.html

It would seem that Indian groups are closer related to American Indians than to other groups, and less closely related to Iranians (but I may be misinterpreting the chart). If I'm reading the chart right, then since Amerindians split off at least 14K years ago, and more likely much longer ago, then Indian populations have been in place for at least that long; and the supposed Indo-European invasion did not make Indian populations closer related to Iranians.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Sep 2016 19:40

I think "people out of India" dies. "Language out of India" is still very plausible.
http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... india.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby wig » 25 Sep 2016 21:16

http://mashable.com/2016/09/21/aborigin ... 6UvMPBR8qo
this is Off track to this thread but IMVHO relevant
An extensive DNA study confirms what Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have always believed: they're the oldest living civilisation on the planet.
n fact, their relationship to the land stretches back over 50,000 years, according to new scientific research published in the journal Nature. Led by Professor Eske Willerslev of the University of Cambridge, in collaboration with a host of Indigenous elders, the research team sequenced the genome of 83 Aboriginal Australians (from groups covering 90 percent of Australia's land mass) and 25 Highland Papuans.

Significantly, the results also show that Indigenous ancestors migrated from Africa 72,000 years ago as part of a "single migration" of the world's first people. Aboriginal and Papuan ancestors then split from the single migrating group more than 58,000 years ago, reaching the supercontinent of Sahul (modern day Australia, Tasmania and Papua New Guinea) around 50,000 years ago.

The findings debunk a number of previous theories. They include the idea (often used to delegitimise First Nations sovereignty) that Indigenous Australians may not be the first group to occupy Australia; that modern day humans spread from Africa over multiple migrations; and that the Aboriginal people's connection to the land wasn't as old as it's now known to be.
That great genetic diversity in Aboriginal populations reflects the huge amount of time they have occupied the continent," says co-author and senior research fellow Dr. Michael Westaway.

Co-author and Dauwa Kau'bvai woman Colleen Wall told ABC she was pleased that both women and leaders of Aboriginal nations were players in the study, and that science seemingly verifies the multitude of Songlines, or sacred creation stories, that constitute the religious beliefs of Australia's First Nations.

"As a society we already believe that we are the oldest race on Earth, and from my point of view this research goes some way towards proving that," said Wall.

The study is one of three major "human origins" papers published in Nature this week, with a second study showing that the advent of human behaviours — as shown through rock art and tools — seems unaccompanied by any significant genetic mutations.

As Swapan Mallick of Harvard Medical School put it, "your genome contains the history of every ancestor you ever had."

In an accompanying commentary on the three studies, Joshua M. Akey of University of Washington said, "I think all three studies are basically saying the same thing. We know there were multiple dispersals out of Africa, but we can trace our ancestry back to a single one."

Aubrey Lynch, an Indigenous Wangai elder involved in the study, said "this study confirms our beliefs that we have ancient connections to our lands and have been here far longer than anyone else."


The study also shows significant diversity in the genetic makeup of Indigenous nations between the east and west of the continent.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 30 Sep 2016 11:10

shiv wrote:
peter wrote:Origin of Sanskrit search is noble indeed. Though "linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead" is a wrong statement. Simple example. Vedanga Jyotish an ancient astronomical text has configurations of sky which can be reliably dated to before 1000 BC. But on "linguistic evidence" this work has been dated to 4th or even later, century BC. And this linguistic evidence is what is used to date Vedang Jyotish.

We all can say oh we don't believe it but then we will be just the "believers".
A shastrarth requires the other party to be defeated by tark/logic/evidence etc.

Just by declaring that we don't believe you doesnt work.

You need to watch this video - they make some scathing observations about how linguists do their work - and these people are not even trying to argue for or against AIT. Just calling on the fakeology of linguistics. Long video though..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

This prof believes in AIT it seems. Rigveda is 1400 BC according to her.
Are there no trained linguists who can topple the AIT camp linguistically too?

A victory has to be complete.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 14:48

peter wrote:
shiv wrote:You need to watch this video - they make some scathing observations about how linguists do their work - and these people are not even trying to argue for or against AIT. Just calling on the fakeology of linguistics. Long video though..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

This prof believes in AIT it seems. Rigveda is 1400 BC according to her.
Are there no trained linguists who can topple the AIT camp linguistically too?

A victory has to be complete.

Complete victory is a noble goal but it is not going to come without making sure linguistic theories are trashed.

There is a circular problem here and it is the original problem

Linguists created AIT which is now believed everywhere. But we Indians are focused only on AIT alone and we completely ignore all the other rubbish that linguists have done.

Now here we have more and more people pointing out the errors made by linguists. These people are focused on linguists and probably do not even know the extent to which linguistics has been used for AIT. They don't care about AIT anyway. Only we do.

But once you get enough evidence that linguists have been making up things, you then have the opening round for showing how linguists have been bullshitting in all sorts of theories including AIT which is so close to our hearts. So anything that tells the truth about linguistic bullshittting is a tool in the hands of anti AIT people.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 01 Oct 2016 05:58

shiv wrote:
peter wrote:This prof believes in AIT it seems. Rigveda is 1400 BC according to her.
Are there no trained linguists who can topple the AIT camp linguistically too?

A victory has to be complete.

Complete victory is a noble goal but it is not going to come without making sure linguistic theories are trashed.

There is a circular problem here and it is the original problem

Linguists created AIT which is now believed everywhere. But we Indians are focused only on AIT alone and we completely ignore all the other rubbish that linguists have done.

Now here we have more and more people pointing out the errors made by linguists. These people are focused on linguists and probably do not even know the extent to which linguistics has been used for AIT. They don't care about AIT anyway. Only we do.

But once you get enough evidence that linguists have been making up things, you then have the opening round for showing how linguists have been bullshitting in all sorts of theories including AIT which is so close to our hearts. So anything that tells the truth about linguistic bullshittting is a tool in the hands of anti AIT people.

I agree with what you are saying. My point is since AIT is false, any theory associated with it has to be false too and hence falsiable.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 02 Oct 2016 11:55

Last month frontline published a very longish 10 page article, stating that Zero was not discovered by Indians but by Summerians and Chinese. Indians started using zero as late as 800AD

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Oct 2016 21:30

Gyan: that was a rubbish article and there were many counter articles to it. Go to Rajiv Malhotra Yahoo group (you need to join first)

Peter: 2 approaches
1) Pick apart Linguistics
2) Use Linguistics to support OIT (Talageri approach)

Need to use both

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svinayak » 02 Oct 2016 22:14

Gyan wrote:Last month frontline published a very longish 10 page article, stating that Zero was not discovered by Indians but by Summerians and Chinese. Indians started using zero as late as 800AD


But who is trying to reimagine the history

An entire generation of leftists have been created for the last 40 years whose only job is to undermine India and its Hindu history.
They are in the academic, media , entertainment and there is no stop to this

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 03 Oct 2016 00:44

Gyan wrote:Last month frontline published a very longish 10 page article, stating that Zero was not discovered by Indians but by Summerians and Chinese. Indians started using zero as late as 800AD


India's claim to fame is more due to decimal system ( wrongly credited to the Arab as Arabic numerals) than 0 alone. Along with the Indians, Sumerians/Babylonians and Mayan too have a claim to invention of 0, but India's use of 0 in the decimal system plus invention of decimal system must rank right along with something as monumental as invention of wheel.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2016 12:32

Didn't know where to put this (request moderators to move the post to the appropriate thread)

Megalith from 5000 BC found in Telangana

In a significant discovery, historians and archeologists have found what they describe as the only megalithic site in India, where a depiction of star constellation has been identified. The site was discovered in Mudumal village in Telangana and is estimated to date back to 5000 BC.

No other site in India has so many menhirs concentrated at one place, claim the historians and archeologists who also believe that this is “undoubtedly the earliest astronomical observatory found in India or even south Asia”.

A cup-mark depiction of Ursa Major was noticed on a squarish stone planted vertically. About 30 cup-marks were arranged in a pattern similar to the appearance of Ursa Major in the sky. Not only the prominent seven stars, but also the peripheral groups of stars are depicted on the menhirs.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 25 Oct 2016 16:33


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 25 Oct 2016 21:31

Dipanker wrote:
Gyan wrote:Last month frontline published a very longish 10 page article, stating that Zero was not discovered by Indians but by Summerians and Chinese. Indians started using zero as late as 800AD


India's claim to fame is more due to decimal system ( wrongly credited to the Arab as Arabic numerals) than 0 alone. Along with the Indians, Sumerians/Babylonians and Mayan too have a claim to invention of 0, but India's use of 0 in the decimal system plus invention of decimal system must rank right along with something as monumental as invention of wheel.


I am just a layperson reading a bit on BRF. But some issues on Archeological evidence or lack there of, does raise problems. IVF Ended around 1500 BC and definitely had a written script as preserved in hard archeological evidence. Then the next archeological evidence is Brahmi Script in 500BC. What was happening for 1000 years in India? Why does the vibrant Vedic culture not leave behind any evidence of written texts or even temples even though older IVF evidence has been found? Then thereafter first written text in Sanskrit supported by archeological evidence and temples arise in 1000AD after another 1500 years. (Or now 600AD). It's possible my casual reading on web is wrong but can someone point me in right direction. (Lets ignore interpretive data based on star observation in texts which themselves were written or copied post 1000AD/600AD)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 25 Oct 2016 22:07

Gyan wrote:I am just a layperson reading a bit on BRF. But some issues on Archeological evidence or lack there of, does raise problems. IVF Ended around 1500 BC and definitely had a written script as preserved in hard archeological evidence. Then the next archeological evidence is Brahmi Script in 500BC. What was happening for 1000 years in India? Why does the vibrant Vedic culture not leave behind any evidence of written texts or even temples even though older IVF evidence has been found? Then thereafter first written text in Sanskrit supported by archeological evidence and temples arise in 1000AD after another 1500 years. (Or now 600AD). It's possible my casual reading on web is wrong but can someone point me in right direction. (Lets ignore interpretive data based on star observation in texts which themselves were written or copied post 1000AD/600AD)


It was "Indologists" who observed that the Vedas as chanted in Kerala was exactly the same as the Vedas as chanted in Varanasi or Kashmir. But there were no written texts. Now, "ignoring" as you say anything astronomical and taking Indology dates the Vedas were already 1500 years old and transmitted and shared without any error and without written texts. How?

One obvious and well known answer is that Indian tradition laid emphasis on accurate oral transmission with error correction algorithms. It is a myth that has been instilled into our minds that written records are superior to oral ones. This idea was established by Christian tradition. And you can see by the differences in old texts that written records are not necessarily accurate. Or true.

That aside, the father of alll grammar in the world, Panini left no written records, but all the rules have been transmitted orally. However a fellow called Theodor Goldstucker who wrote about Panini theorizes that there were probably written records and writing materials in Panini's time, but of a perishable sort - like palm leaves.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yayavar » 25 Oct 2016 23:39

The emphasis on oral tradition was also probably due to limitation of technology. Other than stone edicts or metal foils everything else was likely to perish quite soon. Maybe they also felt that transcribing errors would live a lot longer - though ECC could be used on them too.

Question - what is the oldest record of written puranas? Vedas are always talked about as being preserved by oral tradition. What about the Puranas, Upanishads and Itihasa?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Oct 2016 20:08

Yayavar wrote:The emphasis on oral tradition was also probably due to limitation of technology. Other than stone edicts or metal foils everything else was likely to perish quite soon. Maybe they also felt that transcribing errors would live a lot longer - though ECC could be used on them too.

Question - what is the oldest record of written puranas? Vedas are always talked about as being preserved by oral tradition. What about the Puranas, Upanishads and Itihasa?

Not a direct answer to your question - but it seems obvious to me that oral transmission is definitely the most demonstrably accurate method of transmitting information over many centuries. What the Vedas did was to introduce error correction as well.

Stone edicts are long lasting but difficult to create and do not hold much information. Paper is not bad - it can last 2-300 years with luck, and can be reproduced/reprinted relatively easily. Electronic media are the absolute worst for being long lasting, but great for information sharing

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 26 Oct 2016 21:17

There is physical evidence of Harappan script, even if a few words which is much older. Inspite of oral tradition of Vedas complete absence of physical evidence for hundreds of years is tooo glaring in all other aspects of life is too. Where are the temples, palaces, forts, stone inscriptions, metal coins, Traders accounts on stone tablets, pictures, drawings, land records etc prior to 600AD???? Where are the texts of Buddhism, Jainism prior to 600AD?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Oct 2016 21:31

Gyan wrote:There is physical evidence of Harappan script, even if a few words which is much older. Inspite of oral tradition of Vedas complete absence of physical evidence for hundreds of years is tooo glaring in all other aspects of life is too. Where are the temples, palaces, forts, stone inscriptions, metal coins, Traders accounts on stone tablets, pictures, drawings, land records etc prior to 600AD???? Where are the texts of Buddhism, Jainism prior to 600AD?



Ashoka edicts have texts carved in stone dated to about 200 BC. I'm guessing the actual writing and text was invented a few weeks before? Islamic friends eliminated a lot of blasphemous kafir stuff from Nalanda, Melkote etc

But I must point out that I personally see your attitude as typical of the attitude of people who believe what they have been taught - absence of evidence is evidence of absence and the generally promoted India that writing was not a big thing in India. I am not going to argue with you - you are of course free to have your own beliefs - my permission is not needed. But my comments and opinions are mine
Last edited by shiv on 26 Oct 2016 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yayavar » 26 Oct 2016 21:35

shiv wrote:
Yayavar wrote:The emphasis on oral tradition was also probably due to limitation of technology. Other than stone edicts or metal foils everything else was likely to perish quite soon. Maybe they also felt that transcribing errors would live a lot longer - though ECC could be used on them too.

Question - what is the oldest record of written puranas? Vedas are always talked about as being preserved by oral tradition. What about the Puranas, Upanishads and Itihasa?

Not a direct answer to your question - but it seems obvious to me that oral transmission is definitely the most demonstrably accurate method of transmitting information over many centuries. What the Vedas did was to introduce error correction as well.

Stone edicts are long lasting but difficult to create and do not hold much information. Paper is not bad - it can last 2-300 years with luck, and can be reproduced/reprinted relatively easily. Electronic media are the absolute worst for being long lasting, but great for information sharing


True. I was saying that possibly for Vedas the thinkers of the time felt that was the best option - both in terms of dissemination and hence large number of copies that in turn could/would make more copies which are kept correct using the inbuilt ECC. An error in stone or metal inscription can last a long time (though one can argue it can be fixed by the reader using ECC).

In that context what about the other texts? How were they preserved?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby venug » 26 Oct 2016 21:42

Vedas are considered as the breathe of Brahma. Shabda (word manifested in sound) is considered brahma (shabda-brahma) hence off the bat, transmission through shabda might had been considered superior to anything written.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Oct 2016 21:43

Yayavar wrote:In that context what about the other texts? How were they preserved?

The oldest known palm leaf manuscripts in India date back to 800 CE. But we have lost a lot. One heck of a lot when universities were burned by friends.

I do suspect that the Indian propensity for rote-learning and excellence in spelling bees in Amreeka are related to a cultural tendency to memorize for transmission. We are taught to be contemptuous about that but I must point out the 90% of medical teaching is rote learning/memorization. The analysis and intelligence can only bloom after the rote learning sets the baseline

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 26 Oct 2016 21:44

venug wrote:Vedas are considered as the breathe of Brahma. Shabda (word manifested in sound) is considered brahma (shabda-brahma) hence off the bat, transmission through shabda might had been considered superior to anything written.

Vedas are useless when written. They must be transmitted orally. The sound is important

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yayavar » 26 Oct 2016 21:48

Gus: Brahmi inscriptions have been found from 400BC. Budhdha was born in 563BC they say; and knew to write in 9 different scripts (as per light of asia :) which derives from Budhdhist writings). Descriptions in Jainism wrt Mahavira talk about various scripts prior to Brahmi. Not direct evidence but shows there was some evolution of writing over time.

I find it hard to imagine that people created very complex languages - with massive literature and error corrections - without a way to write it. I agree though that hard evidence would be good.


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