Yayavar wrote: hard evidence would be good.
I have a quibble with this widely accepted cliche, but not for this thread
Yayavar wrote:Hopefully you are not talking in context of my post which basically said - we have indirect evidence suggesting evolving writing scripts. It would be more satisfying to have 'hard evidence' too -- in the sense find an rock or clay or metal inscription in such scripts.
Gyan wrote: But Where is the physical evidence of its development?
Yayavar wrote: I just disagree that indirect evidence implies rejection. But I agree that a direct evidence of something is more complete because it includes more information.
yayavar wrote:I find it hard to imagine that people created very complex languages - with massive literature and error corrections - without a way to write it. I agree though that hard evidence would be good.
Gyan wrote: But some issues on Archeological evidence or lack there of, does raise problems. IVF Ended around 1500 BC and definitely had a written script as preserved in hard archeological evidence. Then the next archeological evidence is Brahmi Script in 500BC. What was happening for 1000 years in India? Why does the vibrant Vedic culture not leave behind any evidence of written texts or even temples even though older IVF evidence has been found?
Rudradev wrote:Excellent posts, Shiv.
I would like to add. All other things being equal, the exact same piece of "evidence" (e.g. some writing on a flexible piece of cellulose-fiber-based surface, be it papyrus or palm leaf) remains "hard" in a dry, arid land for much longer than it does in a lush, tropical, monsoon-blessed, life-filled land.
In the current context where we were talking of writing i.e. scripts, we have - just from my posts - (a) suggestion of why oral was preferred - for dissemination, multiple copies, no technology to do the same otherwise (b) references to different scripts in Jain/Budhdhist stories on Mahavira and Budhdha. (c) logically, a complex language and complex ECC without writing doesnt seem likely
logically, a complex language and complex ECC without writing doesn't seem likely
Yayavar wrote:Thus the implication was that there is evolution of writing. We have two end points - let us say - IV seals which are undeciphered and the Brahmi around 400BC in Anuradhapura. But there was certainly writing before. Mittani treaty afaik is in cuneiform though it uses Sanskrit terms and shows Indic influences. Thus it provides us an additional knowledge point - it shows us the influence of Indics in ancient times including on Egyption civilization, it shows another script used for Sanskrit and indicates that the language is much much older. It is a data point in out-of-india - how Indian influence spread all the way out to Syria and beyond.
Before plastic, there was clay. Demonetisation may have made you more dependent on your debit or credit cards for your everyday buys, but such a system was a way of life 5,000 years ago -during the Harappan civilization. So says Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, one of the world's most reputable experts in Harappan civilization. .
Texts from ancient Mesopotamia have recorded accounts of earthen tablets being used to conduct trade with the Harappan civilization, like credit cards. Kenoyer, delivering a lecture at the Indian Museum on Thursday , said the system was borne out of necessity -just as you use plastic money in order to avoid dealing with large volumes of cash, or because you may not have all the cash you require right then. .
In essence, a debit or credit card bears information about a bank account. When it is swiped by a merchant, it extracts a payment promise from the bank."The trade volume between Mesopotamia and Harappa was huge, and would have required tonnes of copper to mint coins. But they used a sy stem of earthen tablets that contained seals of both civilizations, and were a token of credit," claimed Kenoyer, who teaches at the department of anthropology at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Just like your credit card, it seems. Kenoyer said a Japanese team has discovered three unusual round pendants of baked clay in Kanmer near Dholavira, Gujarat. "Since the same seal was on all three tablets, it indicated they served as a passport for travellers between different regions," he said.
Kenoyer's journey into Harappan civilization also has a Bengal connect. Shell bangles that many married women wear in Bengal also adorned Ha rappan women. The thickness of the bangles indicated social hierarchy . In 1982, Kenoyer travelled extensively through Bishnupur and Barrackpore, where the shell bangle industry continues with the Harappan tradition.
Amar jutoe Harappar mati Park Street e eshe laglo (The shoes that I am wearing are laced with earth from Harappa)," Kenoyer said, his lucid Bengali drawing gasps. He said he picked up the language as a kid at Shillong, his birthplace.
The Harappan Gallery at the museum has been shut for 16 years. "We will reopen the gallery shortly ," said Sayan Bhattacharya, education officer, Indian Museum.
Celebrate DNA Day with Genographic! Join, Search and Learn
Posted by Miguel Vilar on April 25, 2016
Join us at National Geographic in wishing every past, current, and future Genographic Project participant a Happy DNA Day!
Sixty-three years ago today a ground-breaking paper was published that introduced us to the double helix and revealed the structure of DNA, catapulting forward the field of genetics. The scientific world never looked back.
Eleven years ago this month, National Geographic launched the Genographic Project. This project brought the capability of personal genetics to the household and introduced everyone to the terms mitochondria, Y chromosome, and haplogroup. Nearly three-quarters of a million people have since joined the project, learning about their own haplogroup and their personal genetic story, helping us push science even further ahead. That science can now use your help!
A few months ago, we opened the Genographic Project database to researchers and genealogists to help us analyze the thousands of anonymous DNA results. The product of that research is now starting to come in.
“We found an extensive deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”
“The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3,000–4,000 years before present therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is especially counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low, frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.”
This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” The authors then studied the “U” haplogroup, finding its frequency to be 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia; but, in their opinion, “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
Another important point is that looking at mtDNA as a whole, “even the high castes share more than 80 per cent of their maternal lineages with the lower castes and tribals”; this obviously runs counter to the invasionist thesis. Taking all aspects into consideration, the authors conclude: “We believe that there are now enough reasons not only to question a ‘recent Indo-Aryan invasion’ into India some 4000 BP, but alternatively to consider India as a part of the common gene pool ancestral to the diversity of human maternal lineages in Europe.” Mark the word “ancestral.”
[*]The "youngest" dates for the Vedas (accepted by gora scholars whose truths most of us subscribe to) is older than 1200 BC (>3200 years old). Dates that can be gleaned from within the Vedas go as far back as 8000 BC
peter wrote:shiv wrote:...The exact origins of Sanskrit, which interest me are still murky and I will continue to work on that - but effort put in to diss linguists is wasted effort because linguistic theories about language connected with AIT are dead. Further arguments about "How to argue against Invasionsists" is a waste fo time IMO
Dipanker wrote:So how does one explain that Russian and other Balto-Slavic languages sound so much like Sanskrit and also have so many common words ? Indo-European?
Aryan Marauders From The Steppe Came To India, Yes They Did!
Same old crap by Abrahamics experts.
In sum, the balance of evidence suggests male mediated migration into South Asia from Central Asia on the order of ~4-5,000 years ago.
SriJoy wrote:1. The Brahmanas make it clear that the Rig Veda is composed in 'Brahmavarta' and 'Brahmavarta' is defined as a region of Northern/North-eastern Rajasthan. .