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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Apr 2018 20:27

Great (phenomenal) work A Gupta ji. 8)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Apr 2018 20:42

Good work Arun. And this will definitely not be the last time i have used what YOU dug up to cite in my work. Next time I have to acknowledge. The last that I can remember were the works of Mary Boyce and Paul Thieme

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 16 Apr 2018 20:59

For reading, found while looking for Stone Age depictions of Bos Taurus (Taurus or Indicus) in India. E.g., stone age depiction of aurochs in Europe shows the characateristic flat backs.
"Prehistoric Rock Art of India"
https://www.harappa.com/blog/prehistori ... s-motifs-0
One of the least explored avenues in ancient Indus research, one which would so clearly reinforce the available evidence for the long, deep local roots of Indus civilization stretching back deep into the Stone Age (25,000-30,000 years back), when "primitive" tribes painted their stories on rock faces all over India. "India is one of the regions in the world where Stone Age paintings have survived in great numbers and in astonishingly well-reserved state," writes Erwin Neumayer, author of Prehistoric Rock Art of India (p. ix) and other books on this enormous and little understood subject.

Neumayer is one of the most unique scholars of ancient Indian history, one who has spent thousands of hours carefully reading and transcribing drawings made by our ancestors in rock cliffs, deep caves and exposed stone surfaces from the Karakorams to Bhopal, from the southern Deccan to Nepal. Alone he has saved and preserved thousands of images as a personal crusade, much like the leading Indian discoverers of these drawings like V.S. Wakankar, to whom Neumayer's book is dedicated, and other greats in the field whose life works contribute to the record in Prehistoric Rock Art of India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Apr 2018 21:59

A_Gupta wrote:It will be supremely fitting if Gau Maata saves our history!

Gau mata, or technically the misnomer Gau pita is a clear case of genetics and archaeology coinciding perfectly without any linguistics.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2018 02:47

^^^ Thanks, Nilesh, Shiv!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 17 Apr 2018 03:04

A_Gupta wrote:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1437836?scroll=top&needAccess=true
The complete mitochondrial genome of Indian cattle (Bos indicus)
Abstract:
India has 40 distinct zebuine cattle breeds with different adaptability and production traits. In the present study, we report the complete mitochondrial genome sequence of Indian cattle for the first time. The mitogenome contains 13 protein-coding genes, 22 transfer RNA genes, two ribosomal RNA genes and a control region (D-loop region). The phylogenetic analysis showed close genetic relationship among the Indian cattle breeds studied, where as, distinct genetic differences were observed between Bos indicus and Bos taurus cattle. Our results will expand genomic information for further studies on evolution, domestication and conservation of indigenous cattle breeds in India.

Mitochondrial DNA sequence of studied breeds was compared with published mitochondrial genomes of Bos indicus and Bos taurus cattle breeds from NCBI database. Maximum likelihood based phylogenetic analysis performed with consensus sequence of each breed (Tamura and Nei 1993 Tamura K, Nei M. 1993. Estimation of the number of nucleotide substitutions in the control region of mitochondrial DNA in humans and chimpanzees. Mol Biol Evol. 10:512–526.[PubMed], [Web of Science ®], [Google Scholar]). In the phylogenetic tree, Bos indicus and Bos taurus cattle were present in two separate main clades (Figure 1). The analysis divided Bos indicus clade into subclades containing North Indian and South Indian cattle breeds. The South Indian breed, Ongole, was found to be close to North Indian breeds. Interestingly, the reference, European dwarf zebu cattle (Zwergzebu) was placed in the South Indian group.



VOW!! Your posts are good enough to grant your PHD.

Thanks!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 17 Apr 2018 03:07

A_Gupta wrote:
peter wrote:Indeed. Though the milk digesting gene is in humans. Sorry if that was clear. This topic is a bit arcane for me.


Wasn't replying to that in particular; but will find out what is known about the origin of adult lactose tolerance.


I once invited a Chinese person to my home offered her tea and she vomited right in my living room

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 17 Apr 2018 03:19

A_Gupta wrote:We need to chase down references to their origin. B**tards.
E.g., I start with
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17127-1
Towards the beginning of the Holocene, B. taurus and B. indicus were independently domesticated in the Fertile Crescent (~10,500 yBP) and in the Indus Valley (~8,500 yBP), respectively


One of the citations is
Bruford, M. W., Bradley, D. G. & Luikart, G. DNA markers reveal the complexity of livestock domestication. Nat Rev Genet. 4, 900–910 (2003).

I go to that.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mi ... cation.pdf

Molecular markers were used to investigate the intriguing origins of these cattle. Taurine cattle from Europe and Africa and zebu cattle from India and Africa were compared at the molecular level. Surprisingly, Indian zebu cattle were found to have profoundly different whole mtDNA RESTRICTION FRAGMENT LENGTH POLYMORPHISM (RFLP) profiles39 and control-region sequences, when compared with both European and African taurine cattle and African zebu cattle — which all shared similar sequences. The level of sequence divergence between the two mtDNA lineages was consistent with a most recent common ancestor dating to hundreds of thousands of years BP. However, cattle domestication was known to have occurred much later than this, within the last 10,000 years [40]. So, the most probable explanation for this high level of molecular divergence
was that genetically differentiated subspecies of the ancestral wild cattle Bos primigenius (also known as aurochs) had been domesticated in different regions of Eurasia.


I chased down reference [40] above (I've removed other references in the quote above).

Perkins, D., Jr. Fauna of Çatal Hüyük: evidence for early cattle domestication in Anatolia. Science 164, 177–178 (1969).
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/164/3876/177
Abstract

Analysis of the remains of cattle from Çatal Hüyük indicates that cattle were domesticated in Anatolia by 5800 B.C., and strongly suggests that they were probably domestic at least 500 years earlier. This is the earliest known evidence for the domestication of cattle in the Near East.


So if cattle were domestic around 6300 BC in Anatolia; i.e., 8300 ybp - notice how that became ~10,500 ybp in the first citation.

Earliest Mehrgarh dates to is ~6500 BC. When are domesticated cattle found there?

For Mehrgarh, need to find this report:
R. Meadow, Notes on Faunal Remains from Mehrgarh, with a Focus on Cattle (Bos). In South Asian Archaeology

Haven't found it yet, but found this in the meantime:
Zebu Cattle Are an Exclusive Legacy of the South Asia Neolithic
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e189/9 ... 1a323e.pdf


Gem of a post!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2018 03:45

You will find that the Syrian site of Dja’de el-Mughara is taken to be the oldest site with evidence of cattle domestication.

You will see the claim that Helmer et. al. 2005 (Helmer, D., Gourichon, L., Monchot, H., Peters, J. and Sa˜na S´egui, M.: Identifying early domestic cattle from Pre-Pottery Neolithic sites on the Middle Euphrates using sexual dimorphism, p. 86–95, In: First Steps of Animal Domestication, New archaeozoological approaches. J.-D.Vigne, J. Peters. And D. Helmer. Oxbow Books, Oxford (2005)) have a 10550 YBP radio carbon calibrated domesticated cattle bone.

Unfortunately, I can't get at that book without going to a library.

But this 2015 paper Human tuberculosis predates domestication in ancient Syria, cites Helmer 2005.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... icatio.pdf

Excerpting a few sentences from it:
The third period (DJ 3), corresponding to the end of early PPNB, is dated from 8540 to 8290 BCE cal......During this period, people still rely on hunting and gathering. Indeed, the wild resources were still dominating the diet, and there is no morphological evidence that either cereals or animals were domesticated. At the “DJ 3” phase, however, some clues of predomestication could be recognized, both for plants (wild cereals) and animals (aurochs).....Numerous skeletal remains were discovered, representing 119 individuals, dating from middle and end of PPNB (8200-7600 BCE
cal). The domestic resources have been strongly used since the middle PPNB: cereals are derived from an agricultural economy, and exploitation of domestic animals increases in this period, while hunting decreases.

i.e., 10550 YBP there is only "some clues of predomestication". (Predomestication could be e.g., taming), while middle-end PPNB is not that far ahead of Mehrgarh.

Need to investigate more.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2018 04:15

Arun Gupta. Awesome research and a beacon for us to follow.

I dutifully RT your twitter posts!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2018 05:06

sivab wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/900-year-drought-wiped-out-indus-civilisation-iit-kharagpur/articleshow/63776710.cms

900-year drought wiped out Indus civilisation: IIT-Kharagpur

KHARAGPUR: The Indus Valley civilisation was wiped out 4,350 years ago by a 900-year-long drought, scientists at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kharagpur (IIT-Kgp) have found. Evidence gathered during their study also put to rest the widely accepted theory that the said drought lasted for only about 200 years.

The study will be published in the prestigious Quaternary International Journal by Elsevier this month.

Researchers from the geology and geophysics department have been studying the monsoon’s variability for the past 5,000 years and have found that the rains played truant in the northwest Himalayas for 900 long years, drying up the source of water that fed the rivers along which the civilisation thrived. This eventually drove the otherwise hardy inhabitants towards the east and south, where rain conditions were better.

The IIT-Kgp team mapped a 5,000-year monsoon variability in the Tso Moriri Lake in Leh-Ladakh — which too was fed by the same glacial source — and identified periods that had continuous spells of good monsoon as well as phases when it was weak or nil.
“The study revealed that from 2,350 BC (4,350 years ago) till 1,450 BC, the monsoon had a major weakening effect over the zone where the civilisation flourished. A drought-like situation developed, forcing residents to abandon their settlements in search of greener pastures,” said Anil Kumar Gupta, the lead researcher and a senior faculty of geology at the institute.


These displaced people gradually migrated towards the Ganga-Yamuna valley towards eastern and central UP; Bihar and Bengal in the east; MP, south of Vindhyachal and south Gujarat in the south, Gupta added.



Dikgaj, Recall we had wondered about long droughts that desertified Sahara?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Philip » 17 Apr 2018 05:15

Gobekli Tepe in Turkey now declared to be the oldest archaeo site thus discovered, dates back to 12,500 BC. It has staggered the mentally deficient minds of mainstream historians, archaeologists and the like by its dating and unique character, which amazingly have depictions of human poses found in S.Am and elsewhere, later in the earliest Mespot civilisation.

This date corresponds to the Younger Dryass cataclysm , when comet or meteorite fragments struck the earth, affecting climate so drastically and plunging the planet into a new ice age.The fragments of this super- civilisation is scattered all over the planet as we are now discovering.History is being rewritten every day.
The latest on the Indus Valley/ Indo- Gangetic period is that the drought that killed it off lasted 900 years not 300 as prev. thought. The people gradually migrated both east into the IG plains and into Gujarat.Monday's media reports.However, UW remains at Poompuhar off the TN coast have given similar carbon readings as GT in Turkey.

The IV/ IG civilisation was the successor survivor civi like the Sumerian civi in Mespot, Egyptian dynastic era, not that of the old times , whose historic figures brought the scientific secrets of civilisation to Egypt , supposed survivors of the cataclysm of the age when the pyramids, Sphinx and massive monumental buildings were built,characterised by gigantic blocks,of which no crane today can lift them!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Apr 2018 07:19

SBajwa wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Wasn't replying to that in particular; but will find out what is known about the origin of adult lactose tolerance.


I once invited a Chinese person to my home offered her tea and she vomited right in my living room

That should not happen with lactose intolerance. Chinese product not working properly

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 17 Apr 2018 07:20

ramana wrote:Arun Gupta. Awesome research and a beacon for us to follow.

I dutifully RT your twitter posts!!!


What is the twitter handle of A Gupta ji?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Apr 2018 07:22

Nilesh Oak wrote:
ramana wrote:Arun Gupta. Awesome research and a beacon for us to follow.

I dutifully RT your twitter posts!!!


What is the twitter handle of A Gupta ji?

"Seven no Trump, yet another stable genius@macgupta123"
:D

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 17 Apr 2018 07:26

shiv wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:
What is the twitter handle of A Gupta ji?

"Seven no Trump, yet another stable genius@macgupta123"
:D

Thanks.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 17 Apr 2018 07:57

shiv wrote:
SBajwa wrote:
I once invited a Chinese person to my home offered her tea and she vomited right in my living room

That should not happen with lactose intolerance. Chinese product not working properly


I was more amazed at the speed of SBajwa on the Chinese product! :mrgreen: :twisted:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 17 Apr 2018 09:21

Excellent job, Arun. Congratulations!!!

It is noteworthy that Vagheesh et al have left an IED to pre-empt the line of reasoning that Iranian Agriculturists had genetic origins in India (" No Significant Evidence for AASI-Related Gene Flow into Ancient Iranian Agriculturalists"), Supplement pp 184-186.

Your Gau mata discovery clearly shows that IF "Iran_N" agriculturists or pastoralists came from Iran to India, then they didn't bring Bos taurus taurus cattle with them, which is strange.

So either they left all their cattle behind and started over with Bos indicus in India, or the people whom Vagheesh et al call "Iran_N" are not Iranian in origin.

If we can show that so-called "Iran_N" are SUBCONTINENTAL in origin... i.e. they were an AANI clade of equivalent antiquity to the AASI, then every one of Vagheesh et al's conclusions (including the AIT nonsense) can be upended without impugning the data or methodology at all.

See, if Iran_N is actually an Ancient Ancestral North Indian (AANI) clade, the Vagheesh et al ancestry profiles in Fig 2C of their main paper take on a completely different significance. They would imply that ALL of Indian cline since the neolithic is majorly derived from these two INDIAN components: AASI (yellow) and AANI (dark blue). One branch of AANI-AASI descendants founded the IVC, evolved Sanskrit, wrote the Vedas, etc. This branch extended as far north as Gonur/BMAC, accounting for the large yellow and dark blue inputs to those areas; and along their northern frontier, encountered and admixed with steppe people carrying Anatolian HG (orange) and W Siberian HG (green) ancestry... perhaps at once, perhaps in multiple different micro-events. Some of that ancestry percolated back into the cities of the Vedic IVC.

Meanwhile another branch of.AANI went West, taking cattle with them, into Iran. As they too expanded north and west, they bred with Anatolian HGs from the Steppe around the margins of Azerbaijan and the Caspian sea. This intermixing was probably, in fact, the source of the Mittani people, speaking a form of Sanskrit originated in India by their AANI ancestors!

Back-migrations from this westward-going branch of AANI, during the IVC, probably also brought back to India some of the (orange) Steppe ancestry we see today amomg Indians.

This is at least as plausible as the notion that a huge Steppe component suddenly entered India via the Inner asian Mountain Corridor between 2nd & 1st Millennia BCE, bringing horses and chariots and Sanskrit and Vedas from the middle of nowhere... which is what Vagheesh et al. conclude.

For a stronger argument in this direction we need evidence... genetic and/or archaeological... that Bos indicus actually traveled west from India into Iran with their AANI herders. That makes a strong case that "Iran_N" are in fact Ancient Ancestral North Indians, who went to Iran taking Indian cattle with them.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Apr 2018 11:02

Rudradev wrote:See, if Iran_N is actually an Ancient Ancestral North Indian (AANI) clade

This is what I suspect it will turn out to be - notwithstanding Vagheesh's paper. Everything points towards out of India into Iran. Those "back migrations" of Vagheesh are recent - 1500 BCE while the entire gau mata history goes back longer and even export of gaumata to west is 2000 BCE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Apr 2018 11:35

If I may nitpick, even the "back migrations" may not be back migrations at all. Because there is no aDNA from India & its available only from Europe and Steppes, they call a certain DNA as Steppe DNA. So, if they find it in modern day Indians, they say "Indians have Steppe DNA".

Its entirely possible that this DNA or its predecessors originated in India and so there was no need for any Steppe migration into India. We already had that DNA in us. We will know for sure if/when we analyze Indus Valley aDNA.

Secondly (& this is a question): when they say they can model modern Indians as a combo of Steppe DNA, Iran DNA etc, do they actually have smoking guns? I.e. do modern Indians actually have DNA snippets which were also found in the Steppe skeletons?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 17 Apr 2018 12:16

>>Your Gau mata discovery clearly shows that IF "Iran_N" agriculturists or pastoralists came from Iran to India, then they didn't bring Bos taurus taurus cattle with them, which is strange.

I guarantee you RD that their fall-back position will be "they came with goats and chickens" (because cows are hard to move over long distance mountain terrains, or some such crap).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Apr 2018 12:25

Message

1 Why no systematic rebuttal to this study?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: rajivmalhotra2001

https://www.facebook.com/scroll.in/vide ... =2&theater https://www.facebook.com/scroll.in/vide ... =2&theater

I have tried unsuccessfully to create a scholarly culture to DIRECTLY encounter opponents point by point.

We have lots of instant scholars parading in forums, seminars, conferences, videos, etc. BUT who among them FACES the opponents directly in debate? I want them to go beyond copy-paste each others' (and my) works and pat each other's backs.

The study above deserves an extensive analysis - no ad hominems about bad motives, past bad deeds, bombast, etc. Just plain scholarship. I am not asking for a tutorial with our evidence that simply IGNORES this study.

rm


The study in discussion is used by Crappy scroll.in in AIT psyops/propaganda

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2018 17:12

The cattle connection has been noted before:
http://hinducause.org/2017/08/30/forgot ... stan-iran/
August 2017
n subsequent blogs, we shall dwell more on how these cattle could offer vital rejoinders to the Aryan Migration Theory. Western and Northwestern India first faced land invasions and it is through these parts from where, the proponents of the Aryan Invasion Theory so state, the ‘Aryan invaders’ themselves invaded. Well, the Aryan ‘invaders’ or ‘migrants’ – if indeed they existed and if indeed they were European or Central Asian – should then have brought in cattle native to the Steppes – the Bos taurus – who were the taurine (non-zebu) hump-less cattle breeds with them. But there is no genetic imprint of humplessness onto the cattle breeds of western India, at all. As human genetics is employed to settle the Aryan Invasion Debate, cattle genetics should not be forgotten.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2018 17:41

Rudradev, can you interpret this for us (the whole paper)? Excerpt below.
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/1/249/1749245
Herders of Indian and European Cattle Share Their Predominant Allele for Lactase Persistence
On the basis of previously collected lactase persistence phenotype data (Desai et al. 1970; Swaminathan et al. 1970; Gupta et al. 1971; Reddy and Pershad 1972; Tandon et al. 1981), the average observed frequency of lactase persistence in India appears to be roughly 0.40 (supplementary fig. 1, Supplementary Material online). However, based on our -13910*T allele frequency data, the predicted countrywide phenotype frequency in our sample is only 0.196. The same is true when we calculate the mean predicted phenotypic frequency at the population group level, 0.158 (SD ± 0.191)—the median population value is likewise low, 0.089. In our data, point estimates of phenotype frequency explained by -13910*T allele frequency only reach or exceed 0.40 in 11 of the 81 sampled groups and are less than 0.1 in 45 of the 81 groups. Given that we observe an absence of -13910*T alleles in many of these samples, phenotype frequencies could in many cases be close to zero; 95% confidence intervals for all populations are given in supplementary table 1 (Supplementary Material online). Even when we assume that all observed mutations in the genetic region under study are causative and dominant, our predicted countrywide phenotype frequency only increases to 0.24, again substantially lower than 0.40 (supplementary table 5, Supplementary Material online). These results suggest either that there are other major genetic variants outside our sequencing range that are causative of the lactase persistence phenotype or that previous studies have overestimated the actual phenotype frequency in India. However, our GenoPheno analyses (Mulcare et al. 2004; Itan et al. 2010) using interpolated allele and phenotype frequency distributions (supplementary fig. 2, Supplementary Material online) identify only small regions of India where the difference between genotypic and phenotypic frequency remains significant after taking into account sampling and phenotype measurement errors.


PS: Also need to chase down the citations in this:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-717.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 17 Apr 2018 18:07

Arun,

Will do. May take until next week as I'm traveling currently.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Apr 2018 19:32

ShyamSP wrote:
Message

1 Why no systematic rebuttal to this study?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: rajivmalhotra2001

https://www.facebook.com/scroll.in/vide ... =2&theater https://www.facebook.com/scroll.in/vide ... =2&theater

I have tried unsuccessfully to create a scholarly culture to DIRECTLY encounter opponents point by point.

We have lots of instant scholars parading in forums, seminars, conferences, videos, etc. BUT who among them FACES the opponents directly in debate? I want them to go beyond copy-paste each others' (and my) works and pat each other's backs.

The study above deserves an extensive analysis - no ad hominems about bad motives, past bad deeds, bombast, etc. Just plain scholarship. I am not asking for a tutorial with our evidence that simply IGNORES this study.

rm


The study in discussion is used by Crappy scroll.in in AIT psyops/propaganda

Where is malhotrajis'post? I can comment on it

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 17 Apr 2018 19:43

A_Gupta wrote:The cattle connection has been noted before:
http://hinducause.org/2017/08/30/forgot ... stan-iran/
August 2017
n subsequent blogs, we shall dwell more on how these cattle could offer vital rejoinders to the Aryan Migration Theory. Western and Northwestern India first faced land invasions and it is through these parts from where, the proponents of the Aryan Invasion Theory so state, the ‘Aryan invaders’ themselves invaded. Well, the Aryan ‘invaders’ or ‘migrants’ – if indeed they existed and if indeed they were European or Central Asian – should then have brought in cattle native to the Steppes – the Bos taurus – who were the taurine (non-zebu) hump-less cattle breeds with them. But there is no genetic imprint of humplessness onto the cattle breeds of western India, at all. As human genetics is employed to settle the Aryan Invasion Debate, cattle genetics should not be forgotten.



https://journals.openedition.org/oceanindien/698
"South Asian Cattle in Africa
12. The other domesticate that moved between the Indian subcontinent and Africa, probably via Arabian maritime links, was the South Asia-derived zebu cow (Bos indicus). That zebu cattle spread from South Asia to Arabia and Africa is not in doubt, and a maritime route is suggested by genetic data. Marshall (1989) speculated that this could have occurred in the Second Millennium BCE as a counterflow to African crops that moved to Asia. Genetic data show a pattern of inter-regional introgression in which eastern and southern Africa, together with the Arabian peninsula near Africa, show a genetic cline, especially in Y-chromosome data, that indicates much higher zebu bull input than is the case for Mesopotamia and more northerly areas (Zeder 2006; Hanotte et al. 2002). Nevertheless, there was also clearly overland movement of zebu cattle from the Indus through Iran towards the Near East (Kumar et al. 2003). While it is possible that zebu then diffused south into Arabia overland, the genetic data suggests a separate direct line of diffusion. For dating this diffusion we must turn to archaeological evidence, but this remains very limited. Archaeozoological evidence for Bos indicus has been reported from Tell Abraq by the Wadi Suq period, 2000-1200 BCE, and possibly in the Umm an-Nar phase, 2500-2000 BCE (Uerpmann 2001).

13 The genetic data indicates that many southern and eastern African cattle are hybrids, to varying degrees, between taurines, on the female/mitochondrial side, and zebu, on the male/Y-chromosome side (Bradley et al. 1998; Hanotte et al. 2002; Frisch et al. 2003; Ibeagha-Awemu et al. 2004). As such they can draw on genetic advantages both of zebu, for adaptations to more arid climates and nutrient stress, as well as the potential of some indigenous African cattle for resistance to tsetse fly (see Marshall 1989). A recent review for Africa suggests no major influx of zebu, but rather occasional occurrences in Africa, based mainly on depictions rather than osteological evidence, and probably indicating rare imports, in Egypt by 2000-1500 BCE, in Niger in the second millennium BCE and in the Chad Basin in the first millennium BCE (Magnavita 2006; but for a more cautious review, see Grigson 1996). As demonstrated by skull fragments, Bos indicus was present in Kenya by 200 BCE-CE 100 (Marshall 1989). While this could represent overland diffusion from the north, it is also possible that this relates to the later era of mid-Indian Ocean exchanges (see below). As Marshall (1989) notes, the many advantages of Bos indicus (or hybrids thereof) may have been important for the emergence of a more intensive and specialized pastoralism in East Africa at the time."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Apr 2018 19:44

shiv wrote:Where is malhotrajis'post? I can comment on it


Shiv, He sent it to his yahoo groups list. You can send reply to him as you have direct access to him.

===
RajivMalhotraDiscussion - Yahoo Groups
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Raj ... ssion/info
This group discusses the books and other writings by Rajiv Malhotra. His books are: -- BEING DIFFERENT: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism. Published by HarperCollins India. Details on the book at: http://www.BeingDifferentBook.com -- BREAKING INDIA: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines.
===

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 17 Apr 2018 21:13

ShyamSP wrote:
shiv wrote:Where is malhotrajis'post? I can comment on it


Shiv, He sent it to his yahoo groups list. You can send reply to him as you have direct access to him.

===
RajivMalhotraDiscussion - Yahoo Groups
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Raj ... ssion/info
This group discusses the books and other writings by Rajiv Malhotra. His books are: -- BEING DIFFERENT: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism. Published by HarperCollins India. Details on the book at: http://www.BeingDifferentBook.com -- BREAKING INDIA: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines.
===

I will have to access that group. I will

A genetics paper cannot willy nilly be "rebutted" without digging into detail However Scroll has the advantage of cherry picking and using data at will without any analysis. One of the things to remember that it is not necessarily only the genetics that is the problem - although as Rurdadev has pointed out - the study has been carefully tweaked to produce certain results. But the problem lies outside genetics too - in the conclusions reached using cross rferences from 92 authors. You cannot "rebut" a 92 author paper without looking at at least a few of the cross references and commenting on those references for their validity.

And Rajiv Malhotra does not know that Arun Gupta, Nilesh, Rudradev and me have directly interacted with the main author in Twitter.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2018 03:08

Touche!
8) 8) 8)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 18 Apr 2018 03:33

Many would have seen this paper. Posting it in case some of you have not...

The person who sent me the paper wrote...

"An extremely interesting botanical paper on the archeological site at Jhusi, close to Allahabad. C14 dating suggests continuity of culture from mid 8000 BC and commonality of crops between the gangetic plain and the pre harappan and harappan cultures pointing to two-way cultural corridors between the regions."

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.i ... emains.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 18 Apr 2018 03:35

Any thoughts - strategic, practical, tactical and research related for me to bring up with first author of famous genetics paper that is being discussed here.. as I schedule my meeting with him. As of now tentatively scheduled to meet during 11-14 May.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

Nilesh

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Apr 2018 06:57

Nilesh Oak wrote:Any thoughts - strategic, practical, tactical and research related for me to bring up with first author of famous genetics paper that is being discussed here.. as I schedule my meeting with him. As of now tentatively scheduled to meet during 11-14 May.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

Nilesh

Thanks for that paper above Nilesh.

Regarding the genetics paper a non geneticist should assume that due diligence has been observed in conducting that study and that the genetic conclusions of the study cannot at this point in time be dismissed unless new evidence and new information turns up.

The question is whether the authors are trying to prove that genes were taken from place A to B (that is people probably migrated from A to B ) or whether they are trying to prove that culture and language moved from A to B.

Now here is what I find odd. If you look at medical papers - say the subject is cardiology. You find cardiologists as authors, maybe biochemists and pharmacologists or pathologists. But when you have 92 authors and you look at the author list of a science paper and find anthropologists, historians and philologists in there then one needs to ask what is being attempted to be achieved in a pure genetics paper. Are they trying to demonstrate a genetic finding or are they trying to use their genetic findings to prove dubious linguistic theories that cannot be proved by genetics but using clever language to hide fudging. Like someone pointed out on Twitter - are they simply "searching for stuff where they find a light shining rather than looking everywhere". In the case of linguistics it's not even a light - it's like a blow to the head and the stars one imagines are circling around. Rhetoric, used in abundance is a powerful tool to convince people - but must be sifted from the real science. The genetic findings are science. The linguistic and cultural correlations are not. We are left arguing with a geneticist who cannot support the linguistic conclusions he has been forced to say because of ten thousand co-authors in his paper, and tearing down his genetic findings is neither possible nor relevant. This is a real-life apples vs oranges situation.

The people whose conclusions can be rebutted with or without the genetics are the linguists and dubious archaeology authors. The genetics is irrelevant even though Vagheesh tries hard to force fit his conclusions to someone else's non-science findings. I would meet Vagheesh as a fellow scientist searching for information. I would not argue with his genetics - but point out that his genetics has a cut off date dictated by the antiquity of the DNA he has access to and the reasonable extrapolations he can make from that. There is no linguistic or cultural data there. Historians, archaeologists and scholars of ancient texts have to be bound by the data they find in the material they study and have to be ready to stand up to scrutiny in their respective fields. Their dates are in the data they find and they are not bound by the rigid cut off dates that genetics offers Vagheesh. If Vagheesh chooses to fit his genetic dates to dates previously fixed by linguists and archaeologists he needs to show the required diligence to understand that he may end up providing support for nonsensical theories with no basis and his work has only been used as a lever, a tool, to further someone else's academic credentials. If Vagheesh believes all that stuff without having a deep scholarly awareness of what he is getting into - that is his problem. It will be torn down piece by piece using currently available non genetic data because at least some of his co authors are frauds with reputations that are past their sell-by dates.

It has to be bad Karma if you must support the stuff claimed by 92 people - not all of whose work you can verify or vouch for .. just sayin

PS A lady called Falana Singh who is tagged with every post addressed to Vagheesh on Twitter has posted a link to this forum on Twitter. These posts are in any case open for anyone to read and every word I write is based on that awareness.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 18 Apr 2018 08:34

Falana Singh is guy.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 18 Apr 2018 08:57

Thanks, Shiv. I have the awareness that this is an open forum and thus whatever I am asking is very much in the open space. I was (indeed) very much thinking along the lines you stated (however nowhere close to how nicely you articulated it).

I want to learn a thing or two from Vagheesh including to ask for his views about what the pure genetics data he has in this paper will tell him. i.e. what logical inferences could be drawn, purely on genetics data, without overriding the evidence.

And since he has shown willingness to know of my research, I will share the same, i.e. what inferences can be drawn, purely based on each discipline of evidence I have explored.

Others, please add your $0.02.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gus » 18 Apr 2018 09:28

Prem wrote:Falana Singh is guy.


well..its the internet..and that too twitter.

I did notice that handle feuding with the vennai dosa...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 18 Apr 2018 15:15

Interesting Tweet from Vagheesh:

https://twitter.com/vagheesh/status/986303801173991424
In the next phase of the paper, I am specifically looking at lactose persistence alleles. This will show directly, that prior to steppe ancestry arrival, people within the subcontinent could not lacked the enzyme to process milk.


He already knows what the next phase will show?

Rudradev?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Apr 2018 16:22

What does that tweet mean? That they had the allele to process lactose, or they did not?

PS: there is archaeological evidence of milk usage in other parts of the world prior to Steppes people arriving there.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature07180
Full text available here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... Near_E.pdf

PPS: Wiki squares with the few academic papers that I've read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

Perhaps Vagheesh et. al. can prove that 13,910 C/T arrived with Steppes people.

Lactase-persistence alleles vary in their geographic distributions. Within European and populations of European ancestry, they are almost entirely correlated with the presence of the −13,910 C/T mutation in the enhancer region of the lactase gene (LCT).

This differs from lactase persistence allelic distributions in the rest of the world, particularly in Africa and in the Middle East, where several alleles coexist.

The T/G*-13915 allele is found mostly in populations from East and North Africa and the Middle East. The allele G/C*-14010 was identified in East Africa.[23] The C/G*13907 allele was described in Sudan and Ethiopia.[10][20][24] The "European" allele T*13910 allele is also found in some populations from Africa, including the Fulani (from Mali,[15] Sudan,[25] and Cameroon[20]) and the Khoe from South Africa.[26][27] This allele has also been found in Central Asia.[5]

It is not known how exactly the different variants described above regulate LCT expression. None of the mutations so far identified have been shown to be exclusively causal for lactase persistence, and it is possible that there are more alleles to be discovered.[28] If we focus on the "European variant", the position −13910 has an enhancer function on the lactase promoter (the promoter facilitates the transcription of the LCT gene). T−13910 is a greater enhancer than C−13910, so this mutation is thought to be responsible for the differences in lactase expression,[29] although not enough evidence is found to prove that lactase persistence is only caused by C−13910→T−13910.[11]

In addition, it was shown in one study involving a Finnish population that the lactase gene has a higher expression when G−22018 is combined with T-13910.[11]

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Apr 2018 17:33

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5702378/
World-wide distributions of lactase persistence alleles and the complex effects of recombination and selection
Anke Liebert,1,3 Saioa López,1 Bryony Leigh Jones,1 Nicolas Montalva,1,2,4 Pascale Gerbault,1,5 Winston Lau,1 Mark G. Thomas,1 Neil Bradman,6 Nikolas Maniatis,1 and Dallas M. Swallow

Either Indians have major lactose intolerance or else there are more alleles to be discovered regarding lactose tolerance.
Image

PS: lactase is the enzyme; lactose is the sugar in milk that is not digestable if you lack lactase. Typos above corrected.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 18 Apr 2018 19:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Apr 2018 18:32

Let me ask a dumb question:

Modern Indian population is being modeled as a cocktail of Steppe_MLBA, Iran_N, AASI, Onge etc. Presumably because:

1) Common mutations can be found
2) They fit a statistical curve
3) aDNA from Steppe, Iran are available, thereby positioning them as a possible source

Point (3) is critical because that's what helps them postulate a directionality of gene flow. However, we know that Indian aDNA is missing. If Indian aDNA is available and carries the same mutations at a sufficient enough antiquity, the directionality is reversed. This is why Vagheesh is so keen to claim that Indian aDNA does not have Steppe DNA, even though he and others have never seen Indian aDNA! Because it can completely reverse the story.

However, even without Indian aDNA, why can't a statistical curve be drawn, which models Steppe_MLBA as a combination of say modern-Indian-DNA, Iran_N etc? We can see which curve fits best. By modern-Indian-DNA, I don't mean "modern DNA". Its ancient DNA but present in modern day Indians.

To me, this sounds like a vector algebra problem. I can pick any set of x, y, z co-ordinates as my basis vectors and represent any point in the 3-dimensional space in terms of these basis vectors. The question is what vectors are chosen & why


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