Classic advice from a man who cannot get people to agree with him "You read what I read and you will start thinking like me". Amazing how SriJoy finds it necessary to advise random trolls on the internet about what they should be reading - only because they disagree with his concoctions.
Last edited by shiv on 27 Jul 2017 19:06, edited 1 time in total
As you have already noted, due to your reflexive berating of anyone disagreeing with your propaganda, I do have people here agreeing with me. But that is immaterial: truth isn’t party to populism. The very fact that you seem to think so, shows the nature of your propaganda.
My comment was a simple administration of an old axiom and a basic fundamental to the scientific process : Don’t knock it, till you try it. The very fact that you chose to discredit something without even knowing about it (in your own admission, as I highlighted), shows the banality of your propaganda.
A defensive downhill ski if ever I saw one when you saw the problem with your usual tactic applying semantics where precision was necessary
Precision is a relative concept. As I demonstrated and you failed to counter, precision carries different parameters in different fields. As I said, in geology, a dating of +/- 100s of thousands of years is considered highly precise. In history, a pan-civilizational event occurring within a century or so, is considered a sudden event. You are simply barking up the wrong tree if you wish to overturn accepted conventions re: precision in various fields.
So the war may not have occurred - rendering useless your idea that it was a war that followed the "sudden collapse" of the IVC
In terms of absolute certainty, yes obviously: Our ancestors deemed the Mahabharata and Ramayana as lesser literature for a reason. However, conventional wisdom states that in an imperfect system (as are these literature classified by our ancients, which neither your or Nilesh’s wishful thinking will reverse), the more general the picture, the closer its to the truth, the more narrow and specific the picture, the more prone it is to distortion. As such, in bold strokes, the story of Mahabharata – a dynastic feud leading to war- is more likely to be true than the existence of a man the size of a mountain, who’s falling crushes legions of men (Ghatotkacha).
You brought up the subject - but you post so much crap that you don't want to wade through it yourself
False allegation. At no point did I bring up bronze vs iron argument. You did. Feel free to quote me where I stated the Bronze vs Steel argument regarding warfare.
You started it
Wow. Instead of asking for clarification (like I have for your posts), you assume and run away with such childish banalities. Good job with obfuscation !
Trash. cousins fighting is family disagreement, not civil war This is misdirection and misinformation but hardly "masterful"
When cousins wage war on each other, both coveting the throne, its called civil war. These aren’t your cousins fighting with you in the backyard. They are royals with armies behind them. The classic definition of a civil war.
Boss you are the doctor, You are the one analysing me, my motivations and giving me advice about what I should read and what I should avoid I am not asking you to stop writing crap and moving the goalpost every time you are caught with your virtual pants down. I am only reminding you of what you wrote
Your obfuscation does not change the fact that you are wrong about the supposed disadvantage of bronze-weilding IVC people waging war on the iron-weilding Gangetic dwellers. Should you wish to engage further in the incorrect laymen’s assumption that Bronze is inferior to Iron for the purposes of warfare, I will happily provide you various scientific data tables comparing the sharpness and hardness of the materials in concern. I hope you do remember, since you take everything I write so closely to the heart, that I said my entire involvement in history started many, many years ago when I happened by Iron age implements from Magadha by a friend (professor’s desk) and offered to do the metallurgical analysis for it. Should you wish to engage in a discussion about metallurgy, I suggest you start another thread on it, where your misconceptions re: Iron and Bronze can be easily cured.
This guy thinks that he was holding the fort when he was in India and all this has started after he left, insinuating that his presence was needed to cover others views with his with voluminous crap.
Amazing instance of "Going out of India gave me perspective that no one else can have" Srijoy seems to think no one else goes, and seems to imagine that no one can go out, spend a decade or two and return to get an even better perspective than what he imagines he knows
Nice spin. My comment was simply to note the knee-jerk ideology of many Indians (yourself included, amongst several in this thread), to conflate atheism/disregard for unsubstantiated religious nonsense with communism. Its understandable, since post-Independence atleast, the only atheists in India are commies. However, it totally misses the forest for the trees that one does not have to be a communist to be an atheist or have zero regard for mumbo-jumbo of various ancient cultures invoking unsubstantiated nonsense about the great unknown : whether it is Jehovah or Brahma, heaven or cyclical universe, sin or bad karma, they are all one and the same: unsubstantiated BS uttered by people who were far, far inferior to us in understanding the scope of the universe. If you wish to dispute it, feel free to direct me to where in the Vedas or the Puranic literature one talks about the composition of the atoms,dark matter, quasars, black holes etc. All you will find, regardless of religion, are non-specific garble, similar to Nostradamus’s or any straightforward palmist/fortune teller’s wishy-washy imprecise nonsense.
I was aware that the Harappan Civilization did not really collapse but gradually faded, but I was looking for a more scholarly source . The IVC DID_NOT_COLLAPSE suddenly. It faded away over many centuries
False. Material evidence of IVC sharply declines from 1900 BC and it suffers a near total vanishing post 1700 BC. As I said, name me a dozen sites of IVC in existence post 1700 BC other than Pirak. For a civilization the size of IVC, with 1000+ sites, if you wish to contend a ‘gradual decline’, it should be fairly straightforward to demonstrate that by showing continued occupation of atleast 50% of the sites post 1700 BC. Currently you have Kalibangan, Banwali and Pirak. That is 3 out of 1000+. Ie, < 0.3%. Ie, 99.97% sites show abandonment in a 2 century period. That indicates a sudden collapse.
From Page 12
"Around the middle of the second millennium B.C., certain changes in the
Harappan material culture became evident resulting from re-adjustments or
changes in the socio-economic and political organizational structure of the
Harappan society. These changes might have been necessitated by gradual
depletion of economic resources" increased population pressure or perhaps
insecurity created by invading or intruding groups of people, or perhaps, by
combination of various causes. Whatever may be the reasons, it is however
certain that Pan-Indus integration of the Greater Indus Valley which climaxed
during the Mature Harappan Period had weakned but not destroyed. It seems
that the local population re-grouped and readjusted to changed situation in
three principal areas and thus managed to survive for a considerable length of
time. These changes are reflected in the material culture found in each region
of their concentration.They are known as the 'Cemetery H Culture' in the
Punjab, 'Jhukar Culture' in Sind and 'Late degenerate/Post or Late Harappan
Culture' in Gujarat (Western India).
Ofcourse the local population re-grouped and retained some of the original culture. Short of genocide or cataclysm, that is the trajectory of every collapsing civilization. Incan civilization vanished within a century, so did the Aztec and the Maya, but the area was not completely depopulated (it suffered a massive demographic collapse, same as the Indus basin) and even today elements of Aztec and Incan culture survive in Mexico or the Andes. However, they are NOT the Incan or Mayan culture continuum, because of overwhelming material, demographic and culture loss, same with the IVC/indus region.
The context of the author’s proclamation is to ward off the AMT/AIT theorists who early on proposed a complete depopulation of the region and a complete erasure of the local culture. He is merely pointing out that the loss of harappan culture wasn’t total- it was near total. This we can still see today in the survival of the Bangle style of the Banjaras matching the ‘dancing girl’ of Mohenjo-Daro, the ‘Priest-king dress pattern’ still featuring in traditional Sindhi garb.