Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

shiv wrote:
csaurabh wrote:
The whole theory of languages was cooked up by 'linguists' in the 19th century and should not be considered a science.

Applying a non-western perspective: For thousands of years we lived together and did not know that there were 'Aryan' and 'Dravidian' languages. Not only that but we were trading with China, Indonesia, Arabia, Africa, etc. where the inhabitants did not speak 'Aryan' or 'Dravidian' languages either. So why did we not come to the same conclusions as the European 'linguists' ?
Colonized minds, learning the story so far:

PIE was the real mother language 3000-2000 BC - spoken somewhere in Europe. These people came down and formed the Hittite empire speaking the Hittile language. Hitite language has been deciphered by guesswork where a the "Hittite word" Watar has been translated as "water" - and so on..After 2000 BC Hittites we have the 1800 BC Mitanni people in Syria who wrote in sanskrit but it cannot be called Sanskrit unless you are a Hindu revisionist. These people went to Persia and split up into Zoroastrians and Hindoos who then went to the Poonjaab and wrote the Rig Veda where the remembered their ancestors in Europe.

IVC? Hapappa? 3000 BC? Stop talking shit you Hindutvavadi. First learn religious tolerance
Historians first constructed egyptian history. Then, they use this to 'correct' other histories. Now, Velikovsky uses jewish texts and egyptian texts to construct a radically different chronology from the one constructed by mainstream historians.

Velikovsky tries to reconcile Old Testament with the Egyptian history(& chronology) using the Ipuwer papyrus. His theory is that Moses(and exodus) have to be dated around 1600 BCE. He says that during this time, there was a great series of famines, plagues and earth-quakes in Egypt. This led to exodus. There was also a subsequent invasion by Hyksos who were easily able to defeat Egypt which was already ravaged by famine and earth-quakes.

I think Velikovsky's dates on Egypt are better than the ones arrived at by the mainstream Egyptologists. Mainstream scholars depend mainly on Manetho to obtain the Egyptian Chronology and then using assumptions and Sothic calendar to arrive at their guesstimates and ignore everything else that contradicts it. They even ignore Herodotus writings on Egypt even though Herodotus was before Manetho.Velikovsky similarly says that Greece had no dark ages and that Mycenean age was immediate following by Ionian age. He uses Ras Shamra and Ugarit to arrive at this conclusion. He also says that Iliad shows the same features as some texts of Ugarit.

Hittites fought Ramses. According to Velikovsky, Ramses was around 900 bce. So, Hittites must be around that period. But, velikovsky feels that hittites dont exist.

Following are velikovsky's points:
1600 bce -> Moses-> end of middle kingdom of egypt by hyksos invasion.
1600 -1200 bce -> judges rule-> hyksos rule egypt
1200 bce -> david -> new kingdom rule -> mittani
900 bce -> ramses the great

I think hittites are from 900 bce period.


I think to establish Out of India Theory, we not only need to focus on distortions of Indian history but also focus on distortions of other ancient histories particularly Greek and Egypt.

It seems to me that velikovsky's egyptian chronology perfectly fits the puranic chronology even though puranas and velikovsky don't know each other.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by peter »

Jhujar wrote:The Indian Interest ‏@indianinterest
A 1898 Yale University study map showing where Svastikas were found. Why no modern research by Indian historians?
Location of India is right in the middle. Haan! Were ancient trading routes same ?

Image
Very interesting map Jujhar! Any chance we can get chronology (earliest find at that site) information for each of the location shown in the map?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by csaurabh »

johneeG wrote: I think to establish Out of India Theory, we not only need to focus on distortions of Indian history but also focus on distortions of other ancient histories particularly Greek and Egypt.
Exactly.. In fact, it seems that the 'history' of the world was written by European scholars in order to fit the world view of what was known at that time (eg. according to Bible, world was 6000 years old )

What do we really know about the history of Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia and so on?

We have the following evidence:
1. Physical evidence - ie. Archaeology, Monuments, etc.
2. Written texts - eg. scriptures, etc.
3. Oral tradition - eg. Vedas

All knowledge of 'history' must be derived from these methods and not any other methods. So whenever someone claims anything in history, they must provide their source materials and show how they derive the conclusion from it. With modern technology, everything can be digitized and made accessible. There is no excuse for not doing it.

Euro 'scholars' claim to have done all the hard work and just presented the results ( because they are scholars, so you can trust them ). We tend to get carried away by western 'academia' because they have achieved good results in STEM subjects. However in the other subjects they have done massive amount of fabrications and nonsense.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Pulikeshi »

csaurabh wrote:We tend to get carried away by western 'academia' because they have achieved good results in STEM subjects. However in the other subjects they have done massive amount of fabrications and nonsense.
In non-STEM their duffers are smarter than our duffers, but both sides are of duffers....

For anyone interested - see the Nazi traits of Roger Pearson, Alain de Benoist, Jean Haudry, Georges Dumezil, etc. These have been brought up by Western Academics themselves... these are overt... covert is harder to suss.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

csaurabh wrote:
johneeG wrote: I think to establish Out of India Theory, we not only need to focus on distortions of Indian history but also focus on distortions of other ancient histories particularly Greek and Egypt.
Exactly.. In fact, it seems that the 'history' of the world was written by European scholars in order to fit the world view of what was known at that time (eg. according to Bible, world was 6000 years old )

What do we really know about the history of Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia and so on?

We have the following evidence:
1. Physical evidence - ie. Archaeology, Monuments, etc.
2. Written texts - eg. scriptures, etc.
3. Oral tradition - eg. Vedas

All knowledge of 'history' must be derived from these methods and not any other methods. So whenever someone claims anything in history, they must provide their source materials and show how they derive the conclusion from it. With modern technology, everything can be digitized and made accessible. There is no excuse for not doing it.

Euro 'scholars' claim to have done all the hard work and just presented the results ( because they are scholars, so you can trust them ). We tend to get carried away by western 'academia' because they have achieved good results in STEM subjects. However in the other subjects they have done massive amount of fabrications and nonsense.
please see the following wiki page about sothic dating of egypt. Posting it in full because this dating is quite important.
Sothic cycle

The Sothic cycle or Canicular period is a period of 1,461 ancient Egyptian years (of 365 days each) or 1,460Julian years (averaging 365.25 days each). During a Sothic cycle, the 365-day year loses enough time that the start of the year once again coincides with the heliacal rising of the star Sirius (the Latinized name for Greek Σείριος, a star calledSopdet by the Egyptians, in Greek transcribed as Sothis; a single year between heliacal risings of Sothis is a Sothic year). This rising occurred within a month or so of the beginning of the Nile flood, and was a matter of primary importance to thisagricultural society. It is believed that Ancient Egyptians followed both a 365-day civil calendar and a lunar religious calendar.

Mechanics and discovery

The ancient Egyptian civil year was 365 days long, and apparently did not have any intercalary days added to keep it in alignment with the Sothic year, a kind of sidereal year. Normally, a sidereal year is considered to be 365.25636 days long, but that only applies to stars on the ecliptic, or the apparent path of the Sun. Because Sirius lies ~40˚ below the ecliptic, the wobbling of the celestial equator and hence of the horizon at the latitude of Egypt, as well as the proper motion of the star, causes the Sothic year to be slightly smaller. Indeed, it is almost exactly 365.25 days long, the average number of days in a Julian year.

This cycle was first noticed by Eduard Meyer in 1904, who then carefully combed known Egyptian inscriptions and written materials to find any mention of the calendar dates when Sirius rose at dawn. He found six of them, on which the dates of much of the conventional Egyptian chronology are based. A heliacal rise of Sirius was recorded by Censorinus as having happened on the Egyptian New Year's Day, between AD 139 and 142.[1] The record actually refers to July 21 of 140 AD but is astronomically calculated as a definite July 20 of 139 AD. This correlates the Egyptian calendar to the Julian calendar. Leap day occurs in 140 AD, and so the new year, Thoth 1, is July 20 in 139 AD but it is July 19 in 140-142 AD. Thus he was able to compare the day on which Sothis rose in the Egyptian calendar to the day on which Sothis ought to have risen in the Julian calendar, count the number of intercalary days needed, and determine how many years were between the beginning of a cycle and the observation. One also needs to know the place of observation, since the latitude of the observation changes the day when the heliacal rising of Sirius occurs, and mislocating an observation can potentially change the resulting chronology by several decades.[1] Meyer concluded from an ivory tablet from the reign of Djer that the Egyptian civil calendar was created in 4241 BC,[citation needed] a date that appears in a number of old books. But research and discoveries have since shown that the first dynasty of Egypt did not begin before c.3100 BC, and the claim that 4241 BC (July 19) is the "earliest fixed date" has since been discredited. Most scholars either move the observation upon which he based this forward by one cycle of Sothis to 2781 (July 19), or reject the assumption that the document in question indicates a rise of Sothis at all.[2]

Chronological interpretation

Three specific observations of the heliacal rise of Sirius are extremely important for Egyptian chronology. The first is the aforementioned ivory tablet from the reign of Djer which supposedly indicates the beginning of a Sothic cycle, the rising of Sothis on the same day as the new year. If this does indicate the beginning of a Sothic cycle, it must date to about 2773 BC (July 17).[3] However, this date is too late for Djer's reign, so many scholars believe that it indicates a correlation between the rising of Sothis and the lunar calendar, instead of the solar calendar, which would render the tablet essentially devoid of chronological value.[2]

The second observation is clearly a reference to a heliacal rising, and is believed to date to the seventh year of Senusret III. This observation was almost certainly made at Itj-Tawy, the Twelfth Dynasty capital, which would date the Twelfth Dynasty from 1963 to 1786 BC.[1] The Ramses (Turin) Papyrus Canon says 213 years (1991-1778 BC), Richard Parker reduces it to 206 years (1991-1785 BC), based on July 17 of 1872 BC as the Sothic date (120th year of 12th dynasty, a drift of 30 leap days). Prior to Parker's investigation of lunar dates the 12th dynasty was placed as 213 years of 2007-1794 BC perceiving the date as July 21 of 1888 BC as the 120th year, and then as 2003-1790 BC perceiving the date as July 20 of 1884 BC as the 120th year.

The third observation was in the reign of Amenhotep I, and, assuming it was made in Thebes, dates his reign between 1525 and 1504 BC. If made in Memphis, Heliopolis, or some other Delta site instead, as a minority of scholars still argue, the entire chronology of the Eighteenth dynasty needs to be expanded by some 20 years.[4]

Observational mechanics and precession

The Sothic cycle is a specific example of two cycles of differing length interacting to cycle together, here called a tertiary cycle. This is mathematically defined by the formula 1/a + 1/b = 1/t or half the harmonic mean. In the case of the Sothic cycle the two cycles are a 365d Egyptian calendar year and a "Sothic" year. Other tertiary cycles occur with turn signals on two different cars, two pumps filling a swimming pool, or the hands on an analog clock passing each other. It is the time required for a faster car to get one lap ahead of a slower car traveling on a race track.

The Sothic year is the length of time for the star Sirius/Sothis to visually return to the same position in relation to the sun. Star years measured in this way vary due to precession,[5] the movement of the Earth's axis in relation to the sun. The length of time for a star to make a yearly path can be marked when it rises to a defined altitude above a local horizon at the time of sunrise. This altitude does not have to be the altitude of first possible visibility. Throughout the year the star will rise approximately four minutes earlier each successive sunrise. Eventually the star will return to its same relative location at sunrise. This length of time can be called an observational year.

Stars that reside close to the ecliptic or the ecliptic meridian will on average exhibit observational years close to the sidereal year of 365.2564d. The ecliptic and the meridian cut the sky into four quadrants. The axis of the earth wobbles around slowly moving the observer and changing the observation of the event. If the axis swings the observer closer to the event its observational year will be shortened. Likewise, the observational year can be lengthened when the axis swings away from the observer. This depends upon which quadrant of the sky the phenomenon is observed.

The Sothic year is remarkable because its average duration was exactly 365.25d in the early 4th millennium BC [6] before the unification of Egypt. The slow rate of change from this value is also of note. If observations and records could have been maintained during predynastic times the Sothic rise would optimally return to the same calendar day after 1461 calendar years. This value would drop to about 1456 calendar years by the Middle Kingdom. The 1461 value could also be maintained if the date of the Sothic rise were artificially maintained by moving the feast in celebration of this event one day every fourth year instead of rarely adjusting it according to observation.

It has been noticed, and the Sothic cycle confirms, that Sirius does not move retrograde across the sky like other stars, a phenomenon widely known as the precession of the equinox. Professor Jed Buchwald wrote "Sirius remains about the same distance from the equinoxes – and so from the solstices – throughout these many centuries, despite precession." [7] For the same reason, the helical rising (or zenith) of Sirius does not slip through the calendar (at the precession rate of about one day per 71.6 years), as other stars do. This remarkable stability within the solar year may be one reason that the Egyptians used it as a basis for their calendar whereas no other star would have sufficed.

The lunisolar theory of precession requires that the earth wobble enough to lose one complete rotation on its axis and one revolution around the sun (relative to the fixed stars) per precession cycle. Modern astronomers now measure the rate of precession via radio telescopes fixed on distant quasars and a process known as Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI) confirms the earth changes orientation to the stars at about 50.3 arc seconds per year, equating to one complete precession of the equinox in about 25,700 years. Nonetheless, Sirius, due to its proper motion, remains practically stationary making it the ideal marker for ancient Egyptian planning purposes.

Problems and criticisms

Determining the date of a heliacal rise of Sothis has been shown to be difficult, especially considering the need to know the exact latitude of the observation.[1] Another problem is that because the Egyptian calendar loses one day every four years, a heliacal rise will take place on the same day for four years in a row, and any observation of that rise can date to any of those four years, making the observation not extremely precise.[1]

A number of criticisms have been leveled against the reliability of dating by the Sothic cycle. Some are serious enough to be considered problematic. Firstly, none of the astronomical observations have dates that mention the specific pharaoh in whose reign they were observed, forcing Egyptologists to supply that information on the basis of a certain amount of informed speculation. Secondly there is no information regarding the nature of the civil calendar throughout the course of Egyptian history, forcing Egyptologists to assume that it existed unchanged for thousands of years; the Egyptians would only have needed to carry out one calendar reform in a few thousand years for these calculations to be worthless. Other criticisms are not considered as problematic, e.g. there is no extant mention of the Sothic cycle in ancient Egyptian writing, which may simply be a result of it either being so obvious to Egyptians that it didn't merit mention or to relevant texts being destroyed over time or still awaiting discovery.

Some have recently claimed that the Theran eruption marks the beginning of the Eighteenth dynasty due to Theran ash and pumice discoveries in the ruins of Avaris in layers that mark the end of the Hyksos era[citation needed]. Because the evidence ofdendrochronologists indicates the eruption took place in 1626 BC, this has been taken to indicate that dating by the Sothic cycle is off by 50–80 years at the outset of the 18th dynasty[citation needed]. Claims that the Thera eruption is the subject of theTempest Stele of Ahmose I[8] have been disputed by writers such as Peter James.[9]
Notice the problems and criticisms in this dating.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by ramana »

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, thee joker in the pack is new technology. Digitizations, computrerization, machine learning & processing of natural languages. Sooner or later all the 19th century work will be revisited. The question is - will Indians be prepared (or even drive this)?

Sheldon Pollock roping in Rohan Murty to drive the narrate shows its uphill battle when we have well funded idiots.

Note Rajiv Malhotra struggle.

GOI is digitizing the records.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by ramana »

johneeG, Which book by Veilovsky are you summarizing?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

ramana wrote:johneeG, Which book by Veilovsky are you summarizing?
Ramana gaaru,
velikovsky's ages in chaos.

Just want to clarify that velikovsky has another theory about venus which hasnt convinced me so far. That theory is found in his book worlds in collision.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

Fall of the Sothic Theory: Egyptian Chronology Revisited by Damien Mackey on December 1, 2003

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Originally published in Journal of Creation 17, no 3 (December 2003): 70-73.

Abstract

Current Egyptian chronology consists of 30 dynasties, as compiled by the 3rd century BC Egyptian priest Manetho, chronologically bound by the Sothic theory proposed by Eduard Meyer.

Summary

Current Egyptian chronology consists of 30 dynasties, as compiled by the 3rd century bc Egyptian priest Manetho, chronologically bound by the Sothic theory proposed by Eduard Meyer of the Berlin School of Egyptology in 1904. But this Sothic theory, based on a 1,460 year cycle for the star Sirius (Greek Sothis), contradicts the dates found by Theon, an Alexandrian astronomer of the late 4th century ad; and the 3rd century ad Roman author, Censorinus, never connected the 1,460-year period with Sirius. The celebrated Claudius Ptolemy failed to mention this link, and more recently, Egyptologists like Maspero, von Bissing, Jéquier and the great Egyptologist Sir Flinders Petrie, also rejected Meyer’s mathematical system. Of Meyer’s four Sothic dates, the oldest has been abandoned and there is uncertainty about the second. As a result, Sir Alan Gardiner referred to Egyptian history as ‘merely a collection of rags and tatters’. The doors are open for the reconstruction of Egyptian chronology.

The ‘Great Year’

The Egyptian priest Manetho (3rd century bc), in his Ægyptica,1 has left us a collection of 30 dynasties of pre-Alexander Egyptian history; dynasties badly in need of a cementing chronology. It was Richard Lepsius2 who had first suggested that the references in Egyptian documents to the ‘rising of Sirius’ (Greek Sothis, Egyptian Sopdet) might offer some clues for the astronomical calculation. This idea was taken up and developed by Eduard Meyer—with the support of Mahler, Borchardt and Weill—who in 1904 crystallised his Sothic theory in a classic text.3 Meyer had recognized the fact that the Egyptian civil year of 365 days was entirely an artificial one (‘ein absolut kunstliches Gebilde’), since, as he said, neither month, nor season, nor even year, corresponded to any natural period.4 He referred to this vague year as ‘Wandeljahr’ (wandering year) in relation to the Sothic (Julian5) year of 365 1/4 days; and he rightly estimated that the Egyptian year was late by a day every four years with regard to the Julian year, and by about three-quarters of an hour less with regard to the Gregorian year.

The heliacal rising6 of the Dog Star, Sirius (its first visible rising shortly before sunrise), mentioned in various Egyptian documents (as peret Sopdet), would recur on the Egyptian New Year’s Day, at the same observational site, every 1,460 years (365 x 4). This 1,460 year span was known in the Classical era as the ‘Great Year’.

Meyer’s fictitious long-range calendar

But Meyer’s belief that the ancient Egyptians had actually used this Sothic period of 1,460 years as a kind of long-range calendar is pure supposition, with no evidence in support of it. In fact Meyer had to go to Classical texts to get some of his key information: to Theon, an Alexandrian astronomer of the late 4th century ad, and to the 3rd century adRoman author, Censorinus. According to Meyer’s interpretation of the Sothic data as provided by Censorinus, a coincidence had occurred between the heliacal rising of Sirius and New Year’s Day in the 100th year before Censorinus wrote his book, De Die Natali Liber, c. ad 140.7 Meyer was therefore able to determine from there, using multiples of 1,460, his Sothic series of ad 140, 1320 bc, 2780 bc and 4240 bc. However, Censorinus had not actually connected the 1,460-year period with Sirius; his evidence contradicts that of Theon, according to whom the conclusion of a 1,460-year period had occurred in the 5th year of the emperor Augustus—26 bc, as opposed to Censorinus’ testimony that a Great Year had commenced in c. ad 140.

Scholars have rightly puzzled over the fact, in relation to the Censorinus data, that if one Great Sothic Year of 1,460 years really had ended, and another begun in c. ad 140, why did that most celebrated of astronomers, Claudius Ptolemy, fail to mention it? As currently explained, this astronomical event must have occurred in the very mid-period (c. ad 127–151) of Ptolemy’s prolific writing.

Since, as Meyer presumed, the Egyptian civil calendar could have been invented only on one of those occasions of coincidence between the civil and Julian years, and further believing that the second earliest Sothic period of 2780 bcfell in the 4th dynasty when the civil calendar was known already to have been in use,8,9 he concluded that the calendar must have been introduced at the earlier Sothic period beginning in 4240 bc;10,11 a date that could also accommodate within it those Egyptian kingdoms pre-dating the 4th dynasty. Meyer therefore regarded 4240 bc as being a ‘total certainty’) for Egypt’s—and indeed the world’s—first mathematically fixed date.12

Composite images of the Temple at Luxor showing the avenue of the sphinxes, and an x-ray image of Sirius B (which is stronger in the x-ray wavelengths than its companion star Sirius A—Sothis).

Additional Sothic dates

This absolute chronology of Meyer’s was in turn filled in with a relative chronology based on the data provided by a handful of Sothic documents combined with calculations of the reign lengths of the various kings as given in the dynastic sequences and the monuments. For instance, with respect to the 12th dynasty, there was the Illahûn (or Kahun) Papyrus, which mentioned a Sothic rising in year 7 of an un-named king whom scholars identify, on purely epigraphical [the study of ancient inscriptions] grounds, as Sesostris III of the 12th dynasty. With the end of the 12thdynasty fixed at 1786 bc by a combination of such Sothic dating and regnal calculation, and the beginning of the New Kingdom (18th dynasty) similarly fixed at 1580 bc, there remains a mere two centuries for the intervening Second Intermediate Period of Egyptian history.

Of the various major Egyptian Sothic documents, such as the Illahûn Papyrus, the Elephantine Stele, and the Ebers Papyrus, the latter—famous for its information about medical practices in Egypt—also contains reference to a Sothic rising in the 9th year of another un-named king, who has been identified as Amenhotep I of the 18th dynasty.13

Theon had also left a much-discussed statement informing us that 1,605 years had elapsed since the ‘Era of Menophres’ until the end of the Era of Augustus, or the beginning of the Era of Diocletian—c. 285 bc, it was not difficult for chronologists to determine when this supposed ‘Era of Menophres’ occurred. Thus R. Long wrote: ‘From [Theon’s] quotation we gather that the era of Menophres (apo Menophreos) lasted from circa 1321–1316 bc to ad 285 or the duration of 1,605 years, i.e. from Emperor Diocletian back to someone or something designated “Menophreõs”.’14Unfortunately Theon did not tell us who or what ‘Menophres’ was.

Meyer opted for ‘who’ rather than ‘what’, and chose to identify him as Rameses I Menpehtire.15 Rameses I Menpehtire, founder of the 19th dynasty, conveniently reigned for only about a year. However, his throne name, Menpehtire, is not a perfect linguistic equivalent of Menophres.

Biot preferred the interpretation that ‘Menophres’ instead represented the important city of Memphis, in its ancient pronunciation of Men-nofir;16 a suggestion that would later impress M. Rowton, who added his own refinement, following Olympiodorus, that the Sothic cycle was based upon observations actually made at Memphis.17

Name-ring No. 29

EGYPTIAN CHRONOLOGY AND ITS ASSOCIATED SOTHIC THEORY HAVE BEEN BUILT UPON A HOST OF ASSUMPTIONS.

A further sighter for all these dates—though established well before Meyer—was what had become, since François Champollion’s decipherment of the hieroglyphs, an unshakable pillar of Egyptian chronology, seemingly tied to the Bible. This was Champollion’s identification of pharaoh Shoshenq I of the 22nd (Libyan) dynasty as the biblical Shishakwho despoiled the Temple of Yahweh in the 5th year of Solomon’s son, Rehoboam (1 Kings 14:25). Champollion thought he had read in Shoshenq’s Palestinian conquests from the Bubasite Portal inscription at Karnak of an actual conquest of Jerusalem. He interpreted name-ring No. 29 as ‘Ioudahamelek’, which he took to be the name ‘Judah’ followed by ‘the kingdom’, yadhamelekthe kingdom of the Jews’.18 Champollion’s reading of name No. 29 was subsequently challenged by H. Brugsch, who made a new and detailed study of the list. Brugsch identified names both before and after No. 29 as belonging to Israel as well as to Judah, and therefore felt that its position in the list contradicted Champollion’s reading.19 The now generally accepted view is that proposed by M. Muller: namely, that No. 29 stands for a place, Yad-ha(m)melek.20 Whilst this place has not been successfully identified, its position in the list suggests that it refers to a location in the northwest coastal plain of the kingdom of Israel, not Judah.

From the above one can see that Egyptian chronology and its associated Sothic theory have been built upon a host of assumptions.

Earlier rejection of the Sothic system

Some of the early Egyptologists, like Maspero and von Bissing, rejected Meyer’s mathematical system out of hand. So did Jéquier, who wrote as early as 1913:

‘The Sothic periods, far from simplifying the chronological calculations for us, have no other effect than to introduce a new element of uncertainty and perhaps a new opportunity for error.’21

But most historians were not chronologists, and they demurred to the Sothic calculations of the experts from the Berlin School. Mathematics can however be a hard master. The great Egyptologist, Sir Flinders Petrie, who was strongly attracted to the Sothic idea, nevertheless thought that the mere 100 years assigned by this scheme to the Hyksos occupation of Egypt was far too short to accord with the monumental data. So he took the liberty of interspersing an extra Sothic period of 1,460 years. Eventually common sense prevailed and Petrie dropped this wild idea altogether.22

Perpetuation of Sothic error

But academia has stubbornly clung to the Sothic system. After Meyer’s original enunciation of Sothic theory, its chief supporter appears to have been the influential Rockefeller-funded Professor J. H. Breasted of the University of Chicago, who, thanks to his enthusiastic promotion of the theory really set it in academic rock. It was Breasted who, in a classic textbook,23 included an annex, ‘Chronological Table of Kings’, in which he boldly proposed that all the Egyptian dates in the table marked with an asterisk ‘are astronomically fixed’; fixed that is apparently by reference to Meyer’s Sothic calculations. Breasted’s textbook, which incorporated Meyer’s figure of 4240 bc for Egypt’s presumed unification under Menes, still forms the basis for most modern historical syntheses. Breasted even went so far as to specify the precise day for each of two events that occurred during pharaoh Thutmose III’s first Asiatic campaign: namely, his crossing of the Egyptian frontier ‘about the 19th of April, 1479 bc’, and his going ‘into camp on the plain of Megiddo on the 14th of May’ of that same year.24

Current chronology

It should be noted that things chronological have not changed much to this day, for N. Grimal gives that very same year of 1479 as the first year of Thutmose III’s reign.25 Grimal’s date too, of 1785 bc for the close of Egypt’s 12thdynasty, is completely Sothic. ‘Feelings that border on panic seize scholars who trust the Sothic theory when doubt is cast upon it’ wrote David Down, adding that:

‘[Professor] Lynn Rose quotes Sir Alan Gardiner as saying, “To abandon 1786 bc as the year when Dyn XII ended would be to cast adrift from our only firm anchor, a course that would have serious consequences for the history, not of Egypt alone, but of the entire Middle East (JNES 94-4-237)”.’26

But not only has Meyer’s ‘erste sichere Datum’ (first sure date) of 4240 bc long since been abandoned—with c. 3100 bcnow favoured as the beginning date for Egyptian dynastic history—even his second Sothic date of 2780 is looking shaky. As P. O’Mara has correctly stated, this figure of 2780 has been re-worked frequently because of what he calls ‘numerous technical complexities, with varying results ranging from 2781 bc to 2772 bc’.27

What is quite firmly held to this day by historians is the third ‘Sothic’ date, c. 1320, for the ‘Era of Menophres’. Grimal’s recent figure of 1295–1294 bc, for instance, is not so very far removed from 1320.28 And this, despite the fact that as early as 1928 ‘ … it was obvious that Meyer had by then completely discarded the Menophres theory’,29 by moving the 19th dynasty forward somewhat from his original date. That many Egyptologists have continued to be far from comfortable with this received chronological structure is apparent from the testimony of the renowned Sir Alan Gardiner:

‘What is proudly advertised as Egyptian history is merely a collection of rags and tatters.’30

Nevertheless, it was also Gardiner who—as we saw above—had warned of the consequences of abandoning the Sothic anchor dates.

Conclusion

The Sothic theory has absolutely bedevilled efforts to establish proper synchronisms throughout antiquity, especially when it is considered that the chronology of the other nations is usually assessed with reference to Egypt. In reference to my thesis on the Sothic cycles (Ref. 5), Dr Grognard remarked: ‘It is important to show the weaknesses or errors in our understanding of a theory in order to leave our minds free to think of a more acceptable alternative’ [emphasis added]. This should be taken as an encouragement for the reconstruction of Egyptian chronology.
https://answersingenesis.org/archaeolog ... revisited/
johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

Manetho's Chronology Restored
by Gary Greenberg
(tentative release date, December 2002.)
 READ CHAPTER ONE 

(The following is a draft of the first chapter of Manetho's Chronology Restored. It may vary slightly from the published version. Footnotes are also omitted.)

1. The Problem of Manetho’s Chronology

In the third century B.C., an important and influential Egyptian priest named Manetho wrote an account of his country’s history. It contained a wealth of information about ancient Egypt and included a chronological record of all Egyptian kings from the beginning of the first dynasty (c. 3100 B.C.) down to the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. Unfortunately, no extant copy of Manetho’s original manuscript has yet been found.

We do have three ancient texts—one from the first century Jewish historian Josephus, another from the third century Christian chronographer Africanus, and another from the fourth century Christian historian Eusebius—that claim to be based on Manetho’s history, but they are frequently and substantially inconsistent with each other in many respects and all three are often at great odds with the known chronological record for ancient Egypt.

Among the problems found in these accounts are that many of the king names are unrecognizable, a number of kings have reigns that are too long, several dynasties have more kings than actually ruled, in some cases kings appear to be listed out of order, several dynasties have no kings listed at all, many dynasties have durations far in excess of that allowed by the chronological record, and some dynasties seem to be spurious.

Nevertheless, studies of the Manetho texts reveal that Manetho’s original chronology must have been based at least in part on accurate chronological accounts from Egyptian records. Manetho, himself, served as a priest at the city of Heliopolis, and legend holds that the temple at Heliopolis had a picture of a tree with the names of every Egyptian king inscribed on a separate leaf. Until the advent of modern Egyptology the Manetho texts heavily influenced our development of a chronological history of ancient Egypt.

Manetho’s history also had a strong influence on biblical studies. His long chronological history provided a potential anchor point around which dates for biblical events could be established, particularly with regard to the chronology of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses and the chronology of civilization after the flood in Noah’s time. In fact, Josephus’s identification of the Exodus with Manetho’s account of the expulsion of the Hyksos kings at the start of what would have been the Eighteenth Dynasty, deeply influenced centuries of biblical scholarship.

We should also note that because much of our development of chronology in the nations outside of Egypt, particularly in Canaan and Mesopotamia, depended upon chronological links to events inside of Egypt, Manetho was an early influence on our development of chronology in those other nations as well.

Manetho and the Dynastic Structure

The present practice of dividing Egyptian dynastic history into a period of 30 or 31 dynasties, from the start of the first dynasty down to Alexander’s conquest of Egypt, is known as the Manetho or Manethonian Model. Derived from the Africanus and Eusebius accounts of Manetho’s history, it is nearly impossible to discuss Egyptian history without adhering to this Manethonian structure, even though there might be some minor quibbles as to whether the division between certain dynasties should be adjusted up or down by a couple of kings. For example, should the Nineteenth Dynasty begin with Ramesses I, as generally accepted, or with his predecessor, Horemheb, with whom he shared a coregency. Or, should the Eighteenth Dynasty began with Ahmose, the pharaoh who expelled the Hyksos kings and united Egypt under his own rule, or with the earlier members of Ahmoses’s family who ruled from Thebes and initiated the struggle against the Hyksos kings?

On the other hand, it is not thoroughly clear that Manetho, himself, adhered to this thirty-dynasty structure. He does seem to have had occasions where he summarized the lengths of reigns for a group of kings, based on some sort of political context, but may have done so well in excess of thirty occasions. The subsequent redactors of his text may have chosen particular summaries to represent dynastic divisions and ignored others.

Still, the Manethonian Model reflects a reasonably good guide to some broad political divisions within Egyptian history and many of the dynastic divisions seem to be somewhat in accord with Egypt’s political history. Within the context of the Manetho Model, though, Egyptologists have, by convention, grouped certain dynasties together to reflect larger political developments. The standard scheme is as follows:

Dynasties I-VI The Old Kingdom

Dynasties VII-X First Intermediate Period

Dynasties XI-XII Middle Kingdom

Dynasties XIII-XVII Second Intermediate Period

Dynasties XVIII-XX New Kingdom

Dynasties XXI-XXV Third Intermediate Period

Dynasties XXVI-XXXI Late Dynastic

Some Egyptologists have also further subdivided the Old Kingdom, separating out the First and Second Dynasties—more recently, some would also include the Third Dynasty—and referring to them as the Archaic Period.

In addition, some Egyptologists have suggested extending the Middle Kingdom into that part of the Thirteenth Dynasty that ruled Egypt before rival dynasties successfully challenged Thebes for control over all of or portions of Egypt. The chief rivals of Thebes during the Second Intermediate Period were the Hyksos kings, a group of foreigners who successfully established political bases within Egypt, dominated much of the country for almost two centuries, and may have established total control over the entire country for at least a short period of time.

It should be noted that while the term First Intermediate Period encompasses Dynasties VII-X, it may be more accurate to say that it should include part of the Sixth Dynasty and also include that part of the Eleventh Dynasty that preceded the unification of Egypt during the latter part of the Eleventh Dynasty. Some Egyptologists suggest that Dynasties VII and VIII are little more than a continuation of the Sixth Dynasty and others suggest they may never have even existed.

The First, Eleventh and Eighteenth Dynasties each signify a period of unification after a time of division and are placed at the head of the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms. The Three Intermediate Periods reflect times of turmoil and division and are poorly documented, greatly frustrating our efforts to reconstruct the history of these troublesome eras. That Egyptians saw these first three unifications as inaugurating important periods of renewal can be inferred from an inscription from a Nineteenth Dynasty temple inscription joining together the names of these three unifiers, Menes of Dynasty I, Menthotpe of Dynasty XI, and Ahmose of Dynasty XVIII.

In the dynastic outline above, I have avoided mentioning the dates applicable to each of these dynasties and eras as there are differences of opinion regarding many of the applicable dates and I didn’t want to clutter this introductory text with numerous alternatives and explanations. I provide a broad overview in the next chapter and present detailed analysis in the subsequent chapters.

The Transmission of Manetho

Manetho’s history began with a mythical period ruled by various gods, demigods, spirits, and mythical kings, and continued through an Egyptian historical period beginning with what we now refer to as the First Dynasty and ended with the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great. It is the only known ancient document to have covered such a vast period of Egyptian history with both historical commentary and chronological detail about the various rulers of that nation. He probably wrote in Greek to suit the Greek-speaking Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt.

As noted above, there are three main sources for Manetho’s history, Josephus, Africanus, and Eusebius. Differences in content and style suggest how the Manetho history was redacted and transmitted.

Josephus

The Josephus account, which appears in his book Against Apion, covers only a portion of Manetho’s history, spanning approximately from the Fifteenth through the Nineteenth Dynasties. His account appears in narrative form and contains no reference to numbered dynasties or any direct reference to dynastic divisions, although it does describe shifts in control from one political faction to another that is somewhat consistent with the corresponding dynastic divisions. It also includes some sequences of named Egyptian rulers along with lengths of reign and some collective durations for groups of kings. His recitation of the named kings and their lengths of reign frequently disagree with what we know from the archaeological record. We will discuss these variations and their causes in more detail in subsequent chapters.

He appears to have had at least two versions of Manetho’s history to work from and these earlier copies of Manetho already exhibit evidence of inconsistencies in transmission. For example, referring to Manetho’s account of a group of kings known as the Hyksos, Josephus says that in one account the definition of Hyksos means "king-shepherds" but that in another version it means "captive shepherds." In another instance, in one place he gives one set of personal names to the Egyptian kings who defeated the Hyksos and elsewhere he gives another set of personal names to these same kings.

Some of the inconsistencies in the Manetho texts seem to have led Josephus to believe that the conflicting accounts described two separate events rather than differing accounts of the same event. As a result, his narrative appears to include both accounts, treating them as if they were part of a single Manetho narrative, but he doesn’t tell us that the combined accounts come from separate sources. In one instance, for example, he tells us about a rebellious group of priests. On two separate occasions in the narrative, he tells us that the priest’s followers called him Osarseph, but on the second occasion he tells us this as if he had never previously told us what the priest’s followers called him.

Africanus and Eusebius

The two later accounts by Africanus and Eusebius are similar to each other in that they both take the form of tabular accounts of the various dynasties in sequential order along with, in most cases, a list of kings within each dynasty and their lengths of reign. And, in most instances, they parallel each other closely as to the sequence of dynasties and kings contained within. Neither contains much narrative material about the kings although a few very short anecdotes are preserved.

While both seem to draw on similar source materials (Eusebius may have partially drawn on Africanus) and follow the same sequential structure, there are several points where the two lists diverge with respect to the chronological information about particular kings and dynasties. Scholars generally consider Africanus more accurate than Eusebius with regard to the transmission of the Manetho texts, and it is clear that on occasion Eusebius has a more garbled source than does Africanus. Consider, for example, a comparison of the Fifth and Sixth Dynasties in the two works.

Where Africanus lists nine kings (although alleging that there were only eight kings) for the Fifth Dynasty and lists six more kings for the Sixth Dynasty, Eusebius says that the Fifth Dynasty had 31 kings but names only one, a king who served in the Sixth Dynasty. And then, for the Sixth Dynasty he lists only the last ruler. It is obvious that Eusebius relied on a confused or confusing transmission of the Fifth and Sixth Dynasties that concatenated them into a single continuum. On the other hand, our examination of Manetho’s history will show that sometimes Eusebius preserves traces of a better account than does Africanus.

It should be noted here that both the Africanus and Eusebius lists are preserved only in copies written down in later times by other writers, allowing additional opportunities for error in the copying and interpreting process.

The Africanus material comes chiefly from a work by George the Monk, also known as Syncellus, who wrote it down at about the end of the eighth century.

For Eusebius, we have extracts preserved by Syncellus, but we also have an Armenian translation of the whole work made between 500 and 800, and a Latin version made by Jerome toward the end of the fourth century. There are some differences among these various copies of Eusebius. In Eusebius’s Fourteenth Dynasty, for example, Syncellus preserves a duration of 184 years (the same as in Africanus) while the Armenian version has 484 years.

The Africanus and Eusebius lists divided the king-list into a sequence of thirty dynasties down to the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great. Subsequently, one of the redactors tacked on to the end an additional brief dynasty, making thirty-one in all.

Other Syncellus Accounts

Syncellus also preserves some material that he attributes to Manetho as independent of and different from Africanus and Eusebius. Known as The Book of Sothis, it appears to be somewhat of an ancient forgery, a pseudo-Manetho that does suggest some familiarity with Manetho. It is a clumsy redaction listing several kings in sequential order without dynastic divisions and with many kings missing from the sequence of rulers.

Syncellus also preserves another document called The Old Chronicle, which he believes to have influenced Manetho and led him into error. That document, however, is probably post-Manetho but may have in fact been a fourth independent preservation of Manetho’s account. It was concerned primarily with the reigns of the gods and we need not concern ourselves with it at this point.

Patterns of Transmission

The differences in style and content between Josephus and the later versions—Josephus writing in a narrative form with lots of historical content but without numbered dynasties while Africanus and Eusebius have virtually no historical content and present a simple table of numbered dynasties—strongly suggests the manner in which the Manetho texts were transmitted.

With Josephus we see that Manetho originally had substantial narrative accounts about historical events in his nation’s history and did not provide a list of numbered dynasties. (Africanus and Eusebius note that Manetho’s history originally encompassed three volumes.) He did have lists of kings with lengths of reign, but whether these lists were always complete dynasties, portions of dynasties, or concatenations of dynasties we can not say.

In the Josephus text, for instance, the account runs the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Dynasties together without any indication of a break between them, and places scattered pieces of chronological information about the Nineteenth Dynasty in different parts of the text, again without indicating any dynastic break between the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Dynasties.

Africanus and Eusebius partially follow Josephus in attaching portions of the Nineteenth Dynasty to the Eighteenth but they also have a separate listing for the Nineteenth Dynasty. Obviously, at least one redactor between Josephus and Africanus made some new judgments about how to extract and organize data from Manetho’s text.

Judging from the references in Josephus that show him using more than one copy of Manetho, we also see that inconsistencies and contradictions had already crept into the transmissions before Josephus prepared his own work. In some instances there were slightly different versions of stories that appeared in the two texts, suggesting that the copiers may have been paraphrasing Manetho rather than precisely copying from his manuscript, and either Josephus or his source appears to have concatenated these alternative accounts as if they were separate sequential events. Josephus’s two copies of Manetho even appear to have different names for some of the people who performed the acts in questions.

In the case of the kings who ousted the Hyksos rulers from Egypt, for instance, Josephus in one place gives us one set of names, but in another location that repeats the story of the expulsion, Josephus’s account has erroneously substituted a couple of names from the middle of the Eighteenth Dynasty. On both occasions he has the wrong names for these kings while Africanus and Eusebius have the correct name for the victorious king, indicating the multiple independent channels of transmission.

Here, then, we can see that already by Josephus’s time, some redactors were having troubling accurately understanding what Manetho wrote and they garbled the historical accounts. Others did better jobs of passing on the information. This might further suggest that Manetho failed to write in a clear and unambiguous manner and that many portions were confusing even to the Greek-speaking redactors reading his Greek account.

With Africanus and Eusebius we see a transformation in the way Manetho’s text was transmitted, and one which is many times removed from Manetho’s original manuscript. A number of redactors, probably Hellenistic-oriented Jewish scribes and Christian writers interested in comparative biblical chronology, concerned themselves primarily, perhaps exclusively, with Manetho’s chronological accounts, and extracted out and reordered what they believed to be his chronological records.

It is among these redactors that we begin to see tabular lists of numbered dynasties with individual rulers and their lengths of reign, along with occasional summaries. And it is from these sources that Africanus and Eusebius must have obtained their accounts.

So, what the various versions show us is that errors were already entering into the transmission of Manetho’s text not long after he wrote his original manuscript, and eventually, those interested in what he had to say were concerned almost exclusively with his chronological accounts. Assorted redactors attempted to extract chronological material from the already confusing and contradictory set of manuscripts and compiled lists of rulers in chronological order. This produced a variety of independent error-ridden sources that found there way into Josephus, Africanus and Eusebius, and it is from the pattern of errors that we will attempt to reconstruct Manetho’s original chronology.

Some Chronological Concerns

According to the Africanus and Eusebius texts, Manetho’s chronology from the First Dynasty to the last encompassed just under 5,500 years, dating the onset to sometime prior to 5000 B.C. The presently accepted view of Egyptologists is that the First Dynasty began no earlier than about 3100 B.C., give or take 150 years, approximately two millennia shorter than that established by the Manetho sources.

A good deal of this excess can be confined to the Second Intermediate Period, a chaotic era that lasted approximately two hundred years. In Africanus, for example, Dynasties XIII-XVII lasted over 1600 years while Eusebius gives them a duration of almost 1200 years. Josephus doesn’t include the entire Second Intermediate Period in his account, but what durations he does give are on the same order of error as in the other two lists. Even if we allow for the now-accepted concurrent dynasties within the Second Intermediate Period, the three sets of Manetho figures are still highly excessive.

Another large erroneous time span can be confined to Manetho’s First Intermediate Period, which, in its preserved form, has hundreds of years too many for the Ninth and Tenth Dynasties. Furthermore, the Manetho texts present these two dynasties in sequential order, falling between the Sixth and Eleventh Dynasties, when, in fact, the Ninth and Tenth Dynasties were mostly concurrent with those other dynasties.

It is not uncommon among Egyptologists to dismiss Manetho’s error-laden First and Second Intermediate Periods as the result of poor documentation for these eras, a problem which afflicts even modern Egyptologists trying to get an accurate account of these times. Much of the rest of Manetho, they believe, comes closer to the mark. Kenneth Kitchen, for example, has written of the Twenty-First Dynasty, "Here the sequence of 7 kings found in Manetho is fully substantiated by the first-hand monumental evidence . . .. Their regnal years can be closely determined from original documents, almost totally agreed-to by Manetho’s text (well preserved at this point) . . .

Even allowing for the poor state of his First and Second Intermediate Periods, several other dynasties also present chronological problems. The 277 years assigned by Africanus to the Fourth Dynasty and the 248 years assigned by him to the Fifth Dynasty are each more than a century in excess of the accepted parameters. Eusebius is in even worse shape when it comes to these two dynasties. Manetho’s Third Dynasty is more than twice as long as any accepted durations.

Within that framework it is generally accepted that while there are many errors in Manetho’s preserved chronology and often major inconsistencies with other more reliable evidence, the original Manetho chronology does appear to have been based, at least in part, on authentic and reliable source materials. As discoveries emerge and debates proceed, there is still a tendency to compare the conclusions with what appears in Manetho.

The Subject of This Work

How, then, did the Manetho chronology come to diverge so greatly from what we know to be the more accurate record, and why do the three Manetho texts diverge so substantially from each other in many places?

In the present work I examine the extant copies of Manetho’s chronology in Josephus, Africanus, and Eusebius, and attempt to reconstruct the original Manetho chronology before it was redacted and distorted by others. The goal is to show that Manetho had a highly accurate chronology of ancient Egypt that is consistent with the archaeological evidence and mainstream Egyptological opinion. The plan is to use the archaeological evidence to show how redacted copies of Manetho went astray and to trace the logical errors that caused various redactors to transmit erroneous and inconsistent accounts.

Such a study, unless based on sound logical principles, is subject to criticism as nothing more than the juggling of numbers to make them say whatever you want. As the evidence unfolds, however, it will show that the transmission errors were mostly of a specific type. I hope to convincingly demonstrate that there were at least three major errors that infected the Manetho transmissions, to wit:

1. Manetho’s redactors failed to accurately account for coregencies;

2. Manetho’s redactors frequently confused lines of summation with actual lengths of reign for either a specific king or additional non-existent groups of kings; and

3. Manetho’s redactors occasionally concatenated dynasties or counted multiple summation lines as if they signified a single dynasty.

There were, too be sure, other sources of confusion too. For example, in a number of instances several pharaohs in the same dynasty had the same name and the redactors seem to have had trouble sorting them out. The Twelfth Dynasty, for example, had three Senwosres and four Amenemhes and the Eighteenth Dynasty had four Amenhoteps and four Thutmoses. Even when using the same name for more than one pharaoh, the redactors had variations in spelling.

As we go through the chronological evidence we will see how the divergent copies of Manetho incorporated these various errors and show why the different copies of Manetho came to diverge from each other.

To some extent, I see the task as akin to balancing a checkbook, with the archaeological evidence as the bank records and the Manetho redactions as clumsily kept check registers. For example, if the bank shows that a withdrawal was made, and your check register shows your available funds in excess of your bank balance by twice the amount of your withdrawal, one should look to see if the amount of the withdrawal was mistakenly placed in the deposit column instead of the withdrawal column.

Similarly, suppose we had three ancient documents. The first says that a king ruled for 10 years, his successor ruled for 10 years, and the two kings shared a 3-year coregency. The second document says that one of the kings ruled for 7 years and the other for 10 years, while the third document says that the first king ruled for 13 years and the other ruled for 10 years. All three would seem to be based on a common source yet each exhibits a different understanding about how to allot the years of coregency.

The first document is slightly ambiguous, not indicating if the two 10-year reigns were independent of each other and the coregency came in between the two 10-year reigns or the two 10-year reigns overlapped during the coregency. In other words, did each king sit on the throne for 13 years, in which 3 years of each reign were served concurrently, or did the coregency began in Year 8 of the first king’s reign. The author may have been unsure of which was the case, or the author may have been sure of what the situation was but unintentionally expressed it in this slightly ambiguous manner.

On the other hand, the second document, setting forth a 7-year reign followed by a 10-year reign, either takes the position that the coregency began in Year 8 of the first king’s reign or the first king only reigned for 7 years, not realizing that there had been a 3-year coregency. The third document, however, attached the 3-year coregency to the end of the 10-year reign of the first king but is unclear if the second king’s 10-year reign includes the 3-year coregency or began after the coregency.

It is this kind of confusion in both Manetho’s manuscript and the subsequent redacted copies of Manetho that I think contributed substantially to the distortion of his historical account. Using the archaeological record, I believe we can figure out what ambiguities existed and what erroneous interpretations were transmitted, and we can backtrack to get to Manetho’s original chronology.

The scope of this work will cover Manetho’s chronology from the Fourth Dynasty through the Nineteenth Dynasty. For the first three dynasties of Egypt we have insufficient chronological and archaeological evidence for our purposes. Also, most of the significant debates about Egyptian chronology fall within the targeted period covered herein. If my case can be made for the period in question then there is no need to extend the analysis any further. It will, by implication, resolve or narrow the focus of any remaining debates with regard to the later chronology.

By utilizing Manetho’s chronology to fine-tune the Egyptian chronology, we can also use the many cross-references between Egyptian and no-Egyptian events to resolve a number of pending issues regarding Near Eastern and biblical chronology.
http://ggreenberg.tripod.com/Manetho/w-man-chap1.htm
johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

FATHER EUSEBIUS – FORGER

Christianity-Revealed.com

 

 

Who was Father Eusebius? He was just about the most important man in the early history of the Christian church. Some say he was the "yeast" and his history of the Church was the "bread" on which Christianity was formed. Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea was born in 260 CE and died in 339. He wrote the famous "Historia Ecclesiastica," which was published in 325 CE, seventy-two years before the New Testament was canonized.  His book has been referred to as the History of the Church,which laid down the course of Christianity that is still in effect today. 

 

It was with Eusebius' help that his close friend, pagan-turned-Christian Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, won the crown. His close relationship with Constantine, then made it easy to bring about the Edict of Milam in 313 CE which removed penalties for professing Christianity.  It was not until Theodosius I, on February 27, 380 CE, declared "Catholic Christianity" the only legitimate imperial religion. Until this time the New Testament as we know it today did not exist. What did exist were various writings and notes written by unknown authors. Constantine with Eusebius at his right hand presided over the Church Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. It was there that the cardinal principle of the trinity was invented and canonized. From that time until the Reformation in the 16th Century there was only Catholic Christianity―that which Eusebius engineered.

 

Eusebius wrote, "the names of Jesus and Christ were both known and honored by the ancients" (Hist. Eccl. lib. i. ch. iv). Eusebius, who is Christianity’s chief guide for the early history of the Church, confesses that he was by no means scrupulous (giving careful attention to what is right or proper), to record the whole truth concerning the early Christians in the various works that he has left behind him. (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., ch.8 p. 21).

The book "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" states that: "Eusebius indirectly confesses that he had included stories that would do credit to the glory of Christianity and he had suppressed all that could tend to discredit Christianity. The carefulness of the historian has exposed his own character of censorship" (Eusebius and the Christian Martyrs, Chapter 16, pg. 197). 

 

Edward Gibbon, speaking of Eusebius wrote:

 

"The gravest of the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related what might rebound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion. Such an acknowledgment will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict regard to the observance of the other; and the suspicion will derive additional credit from the character of Eusebius, which was less tinctured with credulity, and more practiced in the arts of courts, than that of almost any of his contemporaries" (Gibbon, Rome, vol. ii., Philadelphia, 1876).

 

Gibbon also wrote:

 

 "It must be confessed that the ministers of the Catholic Church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved in less than a century the final conquest of the Roman empire; but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals" (Gibbon, Rome, vol. iii. p. 163).


Dr. Robert L. Wilken, first Protestant scholar to be admitted to the staff of Fordham University recently wrote:

 

"Eusebius wrote a history of Christianity in which there is no real history. Eusebius was the first thoroughly dishonest and unfair historian in ancient times".  (The Myth of Christian Beginnings, History's Impact on Belief, Chapter III: The Bishop's Maiden: History Without History,  p73, p57)

 

Another scholar, Joseph Wheless charged that Eusebius was one of the most prolific forgers and liars of his age in the church, and a great romancer; in his hair-raising histories of the holy Martyrs, he assures us "that on some occasions the bodies of the martyrs who had been devoured by wild beasts, upon the beasts being strangled, were found alive in their stomachs, even after having been fully digested"! (FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY: A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion, 1930; quoted Gibbon, History, Ch. 37; Lardner, iv, p. 91; Diegesis, p. 272)

 

After reading the above, one should ask two questions:

 

1. Just how genuine/honest are the writings in the New Testament? And

2. Are Christians following just another man-made Abrahamic Derivative Religion (ADR)?

 

Paul L. Maier (1999) wrote:

 

“They cannot deny their crime: the copies are in their own handwriting, they did not receive the Scriptures in this condition from their teachers, and they cannot produce originals from which they made their copies. Some have even found it unnecessary to emend the text but have simply rejected the Law and the Prophets, using a wicked, godless teaching to plunge into the lowest depths of destruction. They have not been afraid to corrupt divine Scriptures, they have rescinded the rule of ancient faith, they have not known Christ, they ignore Scripture but search for a logic to support their atheism. If anyone challenges them with a passage from Scripture, they examine it to see if it can be turned into a common syllogism. Abandoning the holy Scripture of God, they study "geometry" [earth measurement], for they are from the earth and speak of the earth and do not know the One who comes from above.” (Eusebius: The Church History, from Book 5 section 28)
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/fathereuseb ... orger.html
johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Appendix 1: PROBLEMS WITH EGYPTIAN CHRONOLOGY



This section has material on the following:

How the Trouble Started

As stated in Chapter 1, the ancients did not count years the way we do, so other methods must be used to date their civilizations and artifacts. With written records, one has to count years according to the reign of a certain king, and have the kings in proper order to create a reliable timeline. Where there is no writing, one can still get an approximate date by comparing pottery, literature and art with what other sites produced. In addition, the layers of a typical archaeological site are a clue; as with geology, the layers closest to the surface are likely to be the youngest, since they were deposited after the layers of rock, earth, etc. that is underneath. Relative dating, by layers and styles of pottery, was perfected early in the twentieth century by Sir Flinders Petrie (1853-1942), and now is used by archaeologists to get a ballpark figure for the age of artifacts. The key to turning a relative date into an absolute one is finding an artifact whose date cannot be questioned, that is associated with a specific art/pottery style. Thus, if an Israeli pot comes from a Middle Bronze Age I (MB I) site, and an Egyptian pot of the same style is found in a tomb which we know from other sources is 4,000 years old, then all MB I sites must date to roughly 2000 B.C., and everything found in layers above MB I is younger than the MB I stuff.

For the ancient Middle East, there are four sources of exact dates: Greek & Roman literature, the Bible, Assyrian records, and Egyptian records. The Greco-Roman sources are universally accepted, but only go back to 600 B.C.; before 600 B.C., some other source must be used. Assyrian records go farther, but not far enough; before 900 B.C. problems crop up, like whether we are listing one king at a time when two kings, and maybe even two Assyrian states, could have existed side by side. A Bible-based chronology can take us at least as far as 2000 B.C., but only fundamentalists trust the Bible that much.(1) Furthermore, the Bible was written to guide us in proper living, not to be a mere history text, so whatever historical data it contains is of secondary importance to the narrative. This means that even Bible-believing scholars are forced to look for another absolute chronology to help them in their studies; a "second opinion," if you wish.

For most archaeologists and historians, the solution is a chronology based on Egyptian artifacts and records, since most of them can be associated with whatever pharaoh was reigning at the time they were made. As a result, from Petrie onwards we have fine-tuned our chronologies of the ancient Middle East by looking for points where they correlate with known Egyptian dates; Hittites, Phoenicians, Babylonians, etc., have had their ages moved up and down whenever their objects were found with Egyptian ones. For example, in the nineteenth and early twentieth century, the famous King Hammurabi of Babylon was dated as living around 2100 B.C.; now he is usually put near 1750 B.C., since artifacts belonging to him and a thirteenth dynasty pharaoh named Neferhotep I have turned up in the same site on Crete.(2) This gives the impression that either Egypt's chronology is a mighty tree, too strong to be uprooted or shaken, or the Egyptians had excellent press agents. Most scholars accept the former without question, while this author strongly suspects that the latter is more likely.


How the Trouble Started
Strange as it may sound, the basic chronology used for ancient Egypt was developed by historians before the first translation of hieroglyphics. Before 1800 they built one based on what classical writers like Herodotus and Diodorus Siculus had to say about Egypt, listing some important pharaohs and their accomplishments but no trustworthy dates. For example, Herodotus claims to have seen a list of 330 Egyptian monarchs, but only mentions thirteen by name for the period preceding 700 B.C.: Min, Nitocris, Sesostris, Pheros, Proteus, Rhampsinitus, Cheops, Chephren, Mycerinus, Asychis, Anysis, Sabachos, and Sethos. And what he says about those thirteen is unreliable, presumably because they lived more than 200 years before he did. For a start, the three builders of the Giza pyramids (Cheops, Chephren and Mycerinus) are in the middle of the list, while every modern historian puts them near the beginning, right after Min (Menes). Sesostris, who Herodotus considered the greatest pharaoh, may either be Thutmose III, Ramses II, or all the Middle Kingdom pharaohs rolled into one; we just don't know for sure. Rhampsinitus sounds like Ramses, Sabachos is a catch-all name for the Ethiopian monarchs, and Sethos is either one of the nineteenth dynasty pharaohs named Seti, or the founder of the twenty-sixth dynasty. Only what Herodotus wrote about the XXVI dynasty (the last native dynasty before the Persian conquest) is now trusted; this has caused some historians to refer to the "father of history" as the "father of lies."(3)

The other source commonly used before Champollion's deciphering of hieroglyphics was the Aegyptiaca, written by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C. In Manetho's day the known world was ruled by Greek kings, like the Ptolemies in Egypt and the Seleucids in Syria. Manetho's main goal was to prove to the Greeks that the Egyptians were the world's oldest people, and he faced competition; Berosus was trying to do the same thing with his homeland, Mesopotamia, while the chief librarian of the Alexandria library, Eratosthenes, claimed great antiquity for the Greeks. It was Manetho who compiled Egyptian history into the thirty dynasties we are familiar with today.(4) "It is no exaggeration to say that we continue to arrange the history of Egypt and to place the facts of this history in the very same order that is a legacy of Julius Africanus who wrote in the third Christian century."(5) When the names of the pharaohs on the monuments were translated, Egyptologists went to Manetho's list for comparisons; it was not an easy task, since all of Manetho's names, like those of Herodotus, were Greek ones.

The first problem with Manetho's dynasties was that the Egyptians left few clues as to which dynasty followed which; they weren't interested in recording which dynasties ended in a revolution and which simply died out. More serious is that the original text of Manetho is no longer available; what we have are garbled editions quoted by two late Roman writers (Eusebius and Africanus), plus an excerpt from Josephus. The two versions do not agree on names, or on the counting of years. To give just one example, Syncellus, who copied Africanus' list, wrote, "The twenty-fourth dynasty, Bocchoris of Sais, for six years: in his reign a lamb spoke [a short gap in the manuscript] 990 years." Meanwhile Eusebius wrote, "Bocchoris of Sais for 44 years: in his reign a lamb spoke. Total, 44 years." We are left guessing whether the XXIV dynasty lasted for 6 years, 44, or 990.

The names and ages Manetho gave for the kings of the two dynasties we know the most about, the eighteenth and nineteenth, were proven wrong in almost every instance when compared with the evidence left by the pharaohs themselves. This caused James H. Breasted to describe Manetho's history as "a late, careless and uncritical compilation, which can be proven wrong from the contemporary monuments in the vast majority of cases, where such monuments have survived."(6) Furthermore, it looks like Manetho "cooked the books," stretching out the history of Egypt as long as he could get away with, by adding years which did not exist, listing kings who shared the throne (co-regencies) as ruling alone, and dynasties as proceeding one after another, when many may have overlapped, especially during the intermediate periods. Nevertheless, Manetho's history is still considered the foundation of Egyptian chronology. For those dynasties which left us almost nothing, like VII-X and XIV, Manetho is considered the most reliable authority, even though the lack of evidence has caused some to ask if those dynasties really existed. This may be why Sir Alan Gardiner wrote that "what is proudly advertised as Egyptian history is merely a collection of rags and tatters."(7)


The Sothic Year
To fill in the gaps left by the classical historians and the monuments, Egyptologists looked for another way to establish an absolute chronology. They thought they found it in astronomical references to Spdt or Sothis, the star we call Sirius. Throughout the year Egyptian priests kept track of when Sirius rose, waiting for the time when it would rise just a few minutes before the sun did (about July 19). When that happened a new year was declared, and Egyptians were told to head for the hills, for the annual flooding of the Nile was about to begin.

The Egyptian calendar had exactly 365 days in it, whereas we know a year is 365 and a quarter days long. What would happen if the calendar wasn't corrected with leap year days? After four years it would be a day off, spring would still be listed as beginning on March 21, when it really began on March 22. After forty years the calendar would be ten days off; not a critical problem, but an embarrassment to the astronomers if somebody pointed it out! After a hundred years it would be 25 days off, which would cause farmers to make serious errors at plowing and planting time. If the error was not fixed, over the years New Year's Day would wander around the seasons, the way the Moslem Ramadan does today, until 1460 years (365 times 4) after the discrepancy started, the dates would return to where they should be. The idea was developed that the Egyptians knew of their calendar's inaccuracy, but allowed it to run uncorrected, for religious reasons; the 1460-year period is called a Sothic year.

The weird and wonderful concept of a Sothic year comes to us via a Roman author named Censorinus. In 238 A.D. he wrote that 99 years before (139), a great year began on the Egyptian calendar, which is based on the motions of Sirius, the Dog Star, and that it is 1460 years long. Theon of Alexandria, who lived a century after Censorinus, agreed with him, and declared that the previous Sothic year began with the "Era of Menophres," in 1321 B.C. Armed with that information, the Egyptologists looked for a pharaoh named Menophres. They settled on Ramses I, because one of his other names was Menpehtire. Since Ramses is credited with only a one-year reign, both he and the beginning of the XIX dynasty were pegged at 1321 B.C..

There are several holes in the assumption that Menophres is Ramses I. One is that Theon never said Menophres is the name of a king; he could be a vizier, priest, prophet or scientist. In 1862 a French scholar, J. B. Biot, suggested, with much logical support, that Menophres is not the name of a person but another spelling of Men-Nofre, the Egyptian name for Memphis. Also, neither Manetho nor Egyptian records produce a king named Menophres, but they do give several with similar-sounding names. One possible candidate is Merneptah, a great-grandson of Ramses I. Merneptah was nominated, then rejected, because historians did not want to place the whole reign of the XIX dynasty's main figure, Ramses II, before 1300 B.C. Thus without any clear evidence favoring any king, it appears that somebody picked the pharaoh he liked the best to anchor the absolute date of 1321 B.C. with.

Once the beginning of the Sothic year was established, it should have been easy to compute the dates of kings and key events, but nowhere do we have a document mentioning that something happened in year such-and-such of the Sothic era. To date, only seven supposed Sothic dates have been found, and all of them are subject to dispute.

One of them is the so-called "Ebers calendar," which was acquired by Georg Ebers at Thebes in the 1870s. This papyrus was written in the ninth year of Amenhotep I and reports a "going forth of Spdt" on the ninth day of the third month of Shemu, the Egyptian early summer. In 1950 Richard Parker used this to calculate a date of 1542 B.C. (assuming observations were made from Memphis), which would put the founding of the XVIII dynasty around 1575. A few years later this date was adjusted twenty-five years downward, to 1517 B.C., when scholars decided that the Sothic observations were made from Thebes (Sirius is visible in Thebes before it is visible from Memphis). This placed the founding of the XVIII dynasty--and the New Kingdom--at 1550 B.C.

In the Illahun temple (in Egypt's Faiyum basin) was found a papyrus which declared that in the seventh year of an unnamed king, Spdt rose on the first day of the fourth month of Peret, the Egyptian winter season. Examination of the grammar of the papyrus labeled it a XII dynasty composition; a German named L. Borchardt narrowed the possible pharaohs under which it was written to either Senusret III or Amenemhet III, and decided in favor of Senusret. Assuming that the Illahun papyrus really recorded a Sothic date, it was written 551 years before the beginning of a Sothic cycle. 551 years before 1321 B.C. is 1872, so Senusret III's reign was marked as beginning in 1878 B.C..

By counting forward from the date given in the Illahun papyrus, a date of 1786 was found for the end of the XII dynasty. This meant that dynasties XIII through XVIII lasted 465 years. Is this enough time to account for all the events of the Second Intermediate Period and the first half of the New Kingdom? Some thought not. Enough documentation existed for the XVIII dynasty kings that the lengths of their reigns could not be shortened much; whatever reduction in years that was needed would have to come from the five poorly documented dynasties that preceded it. And some of those dynasties might have lasted a good long time; Manetho credited the XIII dynasty with sixty kings, and the XIV dynasty with seventy-six. Since the founding of the New Kingdom had already been set at 1550 B.C., just over two hundred years were left for the Second Intermediate Period.

Sir Flinders Petrie thought this was not enough time to account for all the cultural changes that took place between the Middle and New Kingdom, so he inserted an additional Sothic year into the Second Intermediate Period. This put the end of the XII dynasty at 3246 B.C., and made the Second Intermediate Period 1696 years long! For a while in the early part of the twentieth century Petrie's chronology was used in textbooks, but he failed to convince everybody. Petrie's solution caused more problems than it solved; 236 years were too few and 1696 were too many. As The Cambridge Ancient History explained, "Were the Sothic date unknown, our evidence would not require more than 400 or at most 500 years between the two [from the end of the Twelfth to the beginning of the Eighteenth] dynasties."(8) Nevertheless, the idea of a Sothic cycle had become so dominant that no one in the school of conventional chronology was willing to part with the Illahun and Menophres dates. "To abandon 1786 B.C. as the year when Dyn. XII ended would have serious consequences for the history, not of Egypt alone, but of the entire Middle East."(9) For want of an absolute date anywhere else the Illahun date serves as one of the anchors of ancient history. Despite the questions, the "Sothic cycle" is used to test the accuracy of all other ancient dates, including those produced by Carbon-14 testing.(10)

As noted above, all of the so-called Sothic dates are in dispute. Some have argued that the Illahun date might apply to another XII dynasty pharaoh besides Senusret III, since it does not tell us who was king when it was made; even if it is referring to 1872 B.C., we could be in trouble. The date from the Ebers papyrus is also questionable; recently it was suggested that the "day 9, month 3 of Shemu" is really is the anniversary of Amenhotep I's coronation, and the "going forth of Spdt" is something else, like a reference to the hour for celebrating the anniversary.(11) The conclusion? There is absolutely no evidence that any Egyptian ever saw the need to have two calendars, so that he could keep track of how inaccurate one of them was.(12) As Winlock noted, "Of the thousands of documents which survived, not one gives dates in the known 'wandering' year and the hypothetical 'fixed' year."(13)

Dr. Lynn Rose has this to say about the academic inertia which causes scholars to hold onto old theories, long after they have been shown inadequate:

"Each new generation of scholars tends to flatter itself regarding its supposed breakthroughs. But the fact is that very little has fundamentally changed during the past one hundred years in the way scholars treat antiquity: the conventional chronology is still adhered to by the vast majority of today's authors; and the archaeological, stratigraphical, monumental, and literary evidence against that conventional chronology is swept under the rug today even more carefully than it was two or three generations ago.
Sometimes, in fact, it is necessary to turn to older sources in order to find candid reports and honest discussions of discoveries whose embarrassing nature had not yet been fully realized."(14)

Before we go on to look at chronologies not based on Manetho or Sothis, the author would like to point out an excerpt from the Ebers papyrus that is so controversial that most scholars have chosen to ignore it. One section of it contains a medical treatise; for what the scribe called "driving out tumors in the head," two salves were recommended: one "as prescribed by the priestly pharmacist Xui," the other "as told us by a Jew from Byblos." Remember that this was written in the time of Amenhotep I, which most scholars place long before the Exodus; often they even put Amenhotep before the oppression of the Israelites in Egypt. If the conventional chronology is correct, and all the Israelites were in Egypt at this time, how did a Jewish doctor get to Lebanon's oldest city? It makes about as much sense to draw a picture of George Washington armed with a bazooka. According to other chronologies, however, Amenhotep I lived after both the Exodus and the Israelite conquest of Canaan, so one would expect to hear of Jews outside Egypt.(15)


Alternative Chronologies
The first to challenge the new orthodoxy of ancient history was a Norwegian Egyptologist, Jens Leiblein of the University of Christiana. In 1873 he argued that too many years were allotted to Egypt's XXI through XXIII dynasties, and that some genealogical problems could be resolved by having XXI and XXII co-exist in the same time period. He may have been on to something; others came to the same conclusion 110 years later.

Next came an eccentric classical scholar, Cecil Torr, who spent much of the 1890s debating those who followed the conventional chronology, particularly Petrie. Torr and Petrie wrote point and counterpoint for twenty-one rounds in a journal called The Academy, before Petrie gave up, leaving Torr to have the last word on the subject. In the Classical Review Torr dished out an unremitting onslaught against another respected ancient historian, John Myres, who dared to challenge Torr's proposed chronology. In 1896 he published his own ideas about ancient Egypt and Greece in a small book entitled Memphis and Mycenae, in which he argued that the dates Petrie and others had put on Greek artifacts were too high after they were matched with Egyptian ones. To Torr it made more sense to believe that the supposed 600-year-long dark age of Greece never existed, and that there was no gap between Homer's heroes and the classical Greek era. He got a bad review from the Guardian, however, which declared: "Mr. Torr, if we say so, is a heretic in the region of early Greek archaeology." Curiously, that silenced Torr, and he wrote no more on ancient chronology.

The next half century saw the orthodox view of ancient history become firmly established, and few disagreed much with the dates assigned to the pharaohs. Then a new challenge came from an unexpected source, a Freudian psychologist named Immanuel Velikovsky (1895-1979). In 1939 he moved from Berlin to New Jersey, both to escape the Holocaust and to do some research on three of Freud's personal heroes: Moses, Akhenaten, and Oedipus. The conclusions he reached were so unusual that he spent the rest of his life in the United States. He started by looking for Egyptian references to Moses and/or the Exodus, and noticed something peculiar: though Egypt and Israel are next to one another, the Israelites would often record an event that would not be mentioned in Egypt, but centuries earlier the Egyptians recorded a nearly identical event. This generated a question: Are several hundred years missing from Israel's history, or are there too many years in Egyptian history? Either conclusion was likely to generate a storm of controversy; Velikovsky chose the latter. In 1945 he published a list of 284 arguments entitled Theses For the Reconstruction of Ancient History; subsequent research persuaded him to change only three or four of the theses.

Soon Velikovsky became a true heretic as far as scholars were concerned; "a non-fraternity man, the barbarian on the proper campus," is how a friendly critic (John Wyllie of the Richmond News Leader) described him. At the same time as he was writing his historical reconstruction, he came across ancient literature suggesting that Venus and Mars nearly collided with Earth between 1500 and 687 B.C., and published a book on this, Worlds in Collision, in 1950. This shook the scientific community to its foundations, and scientists responded with a savage attack on Velikovsky and his admirers, the likes of which had not been seen since the days of the Inquisition. Gordon Atwater, the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium, was fired for endorsing Worlds in Collision, and many scientists and schools threatened to blacklist the original publisher of the book, Macmillian; all this happened before the controversial book appeared in bookstores. Fortunately Doubleday stepped in and agreed to publish Velikovsky's works, so that free scholarship would not be so easily suppressed. Two years later the first volume of his historical reconstruction, Ages in Chaos, came forth. By this time the vicious character assassination and attempted censorship by the establishment backfired; both Worlds in Collision and Ages in Chaoswere best-sellers, and the heretic had acquired a cult following.

Velikovsky began Ages In Chaos by portraying what we would have if modern history was mangled the way he felt ancient history was:

"Many wondrous things happen when historical perspective is distorted. In order to understand the scope of the displacements in the history of the ancient world, one must try to conceive of the chaos which would result if a survey of Europe and America were written in which the history of the British Isles were some six hundred years out of line, so that in Europe and America the year would be 1941 while in Britain it would be 1341.
As Columbus discovered America in 1492, the Churchill of 1341 could not have visited this country, but he must have visited some other land--the scholars would be divided in their opinion as to the whereabouts of that land--and met its chief. Another chief, not Franklin Delano Roosevelt of Washington, would live in history as cosigner of a charter with Churchill of Britain in 1341.
But as American records would speak of Churchill who crossed the ocean in the early forties of the twentieth century, British history would also have a Churchill II, six hundred years after the first one. Cromwell would also be doubled by the same process. He would have to live three hundred years before Churchill I and also three hundred years after him, or three hundred years before Churchill II.
The First World War would be fought twice, as would the Second. The First World War, in its second variant, would follow the Second World War, in its first variant, by five and three quarter centuries.
By the same token, the development of the Constitution, the cultural life, the progress of technology and the arts, would appear in chaotic distortion.
Newton in England would become an early forerunner of Copernicus instead of following him. Joan of Arc would revive the traditions of the suffragettes of the post-Victorian days; she would be burned twice with an interval of six hundred years between; or with the growing confusion of history, she would have to return to the stake a few centuries from today to suffer her death again.
In the case presented, not only the history of the British Isles would be doubled and distorted, but also the history of the entire world. Difficulties would, of course, arise, but they would be swept away as oddities. Complicated theories would be proposed and discussed, and if accepted, they would establish themselves as new, strong obstacles to a correct perception of past history.
Ancient history is distorted in this very manner. Because of the disruption of synchronism, many figures on the historical scene are "ghosts" or "halves"or "doubles." Events are often duplicates; many battles are shadows; many treaties are copies; even some empires are phantoms."(16)

Velikovsky began his reconstruction by arguing that the end of the Middle Kingdom, the Exodus, and the Hyksos invasion all occurred at the same time, in the mid-fifteenth century B.C. Then he had the Hyksos era last for 400 years, rather than the 100-200 years most assign to it, and marked the destruction of the Amalekites by Saul as being the same as the expulsion of the Hyksos by Ahmose, the first pharaoh of the New Kingdom. The rest of Ages In Chaos was devoted to finding synchronisms between Egyptian and Hebrew histories: Hatshepsut became the Queen of Sheba; Thutmose III became Shishak, who looted Jerusalem five years after Solomon's death; and the Amarna letters became letters from Ahab, Jehoshaphat and Hazael (a Syrian king). The premise of his second historical work, Oedipus and Akhnaton (1960), was that the characters in the Greek story of Oedipus were really members of the Egyptian royal family in Akhenaten's day.

After that Velikovsky seems to have been mainly concerned with defending his radical scientific views. Some think he was also hard-pressed to justify his historical reconstruction; now that he had claimed Egyptian history was too long, he had to prove which were the ghost years or dynasties. Whatever the reason, nearly two decades went by before he tried to finish what he started. With Peoples of the Sea (1977), andRamses II and His Time (1978), he argued that the XIX dynasty is the same as the XXVI, the XX dynasty is identical to the XXX, and that the XXI dynasty was a group of powerful priests who ruled from the Persian era to the early part of the Ptolemaic age (ca. 440-275 B.C.). Looking for any similarity in their careers, he equated Seti I with Psammetich I, Ramses II with Necho II, Merneptah with Apries, and Ramses III with Nectanebo I. He was still faced with shortening the Libyan, Ethiopian and Assyrian periods to fit them into a 150-year gap between the XVIII and XIX dynasties, but he died before he could write the books he promised on the subject, leaving many (including this author) to wonder if such a reduction is possible.

Most thought not. In 1978 the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies (S.I.S.), a group sympathetic to Velikovsky's views, held a conference in Glasgow; most of the speakers agreed that while Velikovsky had successfully pointed out serious problems with the accepted view on pre-classical history, most of his "revised chronology" was unworkable. At the same time, those who held to the conventional views thought they had won, and tried to put the genie of heretical thought back into the lamp. Since that time, those who question the established chronology have been dismissed as "Velikovskians," or "sons of Velikovsky."

Despite this, a few scholars are still offering alternative chronologies. Velikovsky's followers from time to time have set up their own journals to continue the debate;Kronos and Catastrophism & Ancient History are two of them. John Bimson has called for a Bible-based chronology in several publications, notably S.I.S. Review and Biblical Archaeology Review. His view is that the accepted Egyptian chronology may be correct up to the end of the XII dynasty, but only by coincidence. He then stretches the XIII dynasty out over 300 years, to have it end in the Exodus. In Israel, he feels that the reason so few artifacts have been found to verify the Old Testament is that we are looking for them in the wrong places. According to his scheme, the Middle and Late Bronze Age sites in Israel are dated 150-220 years too early; evidence of the destruction of Jericho by Joshua has gone unnoticed because it was dated to 1550 B.C., not 1400 B.C.; the "Canaanite" artifacts found at many sites look more sophisticated than younger "Israelite" artifacts because they were really produced in the glorious time of David and Solomon.(17)

Bimson may be right, but in no way is this the last word on the matter. A lot of scholars have questions and problems about the Third Intermediate Period of Egyptian history (Egypt's XXI-XXV dynasties, or 1085-664 B.C. on the conventional calendar). This is because it is a poorly documented period; not until 1973 did anyone publish a book that focussed on this time (The Third Intermediate Period in Egypt, by Kenneth A. Kitchen). Several other British scholars published a work in 1991 called Centuries of Darkness, which questioned whether there really was a dark age in the ancient world between 1150 and 850 B.C. This prompted yet another Englishman, David Rohl, to do his own research on the problems of the Third Intermediate Period. In his main work so far, Pharaohs and Kings (1995), Rohl starts by tackling this issue, concluding that the Third Intermediate period needs to be shortened by at least 140 years. Then he gets drawn to other issues. In later chapters of the same book he argues, using genealogical data, that the Biblical Shishak is probably Ramses II, and that the Amarna letters were written in the time of Saul and David (this makes Akhenaten a plagiarist of David's psalms!). Finally he visits the excavations of an Austrian colleague, Manfred Bietak, and claims that Bietak has found skeletons of victims from the tenth plague of the Exodus, and even the palace and tomb of Joseph!(18) While the issues he raised are provocative, Rohl has not yet completed the revised chronology he proposed. He promised a doctoral thesis to deal with loose ends, like the correct date for the XX dynasty, so time may tell us if he is more successful than his predecessors.

The reason why the author has gone to all this trouble is to make it clear that the view of ancient history taught in most books and classes is not "carved in stone," and much of it may be invalidated by future discoveries. We must be cautious in reading anything about ancient times for that reason, especially if we know the writer does not subscribe to a Bible-based point of view. Let it be known that alternatives exist, and parts of them make more sense than what National Geographic, Time-Life Books, etc. teach. This appendix will conclude with a table showing how the three Egyptian chronologies discussed here stack with the Israelite chronology portrayed in Chapter 1.



Table showing three Egyptian chronologies, and how they relate to Israel.Date (B.C.)Egypt (conventional chronology)Egypt (Velikovsky & Bimson)Egypt (Rohl)Israel1900XII (Middle Kdm.)XII (Middle Kdm.)XIJacob1800XIIJoseph1700XIII, XIVXIII 1600XV, XVIXIII1500XVII, XVIII (New Kdm.)1400XVXV, XVIMoses1300Joshua1200XIXJudges1100XXXVIII
(New Kdm.)1000XXIXVIII (New Kdm.)Saul900XXIIXIXDavid800XXIIIXXII, XXIIIXX-XXIIITwo Kdms.700XXIV, XXVXXIV, XXVXXIV, XXV600XXVIXIXXXVI500XXVIIXXVIIXXVIICaptivity400 300XXXXX, XXIXXX200PtolemiesPtolemiesPtolemies100Maccabees1 

FOOTNOTES
1. The way ancient history can be mangled by well-meaning historians was demonstrated by Otto F. Reiss in the July 1967 issue of Art and Archaeology Newsletter. In a note entitled "A Forward Look Backward," he imagines what would happen if future archaeologists interpret our stories of World War II the same way our liberal scholars interpret the Bible. Obviously World War II must have been caused by competition between two primitive technologies, since on one side we have an Eisen Hower or "Hewer of Iron," while on the other side was a Messer Schmidt, or "Forger of Daggers." France was involved, but the original name of its hero was forgotten, for he is simply called "de Gaulle," and we all know that Gaul was the ancient name of France. There would be some confusion over "Hitler" and "Himmler," which apparently are two different spellings of the same person's name. The future archaeologist's conclusion? "It adds up to the struggle between true man and death, or between good and evil. A great allegory, to be sure. But historical fact? Certainly not!"

2. Immanuel Velikovsky and David Rohl both felt that Hammurabi fits better in the sixteenth century B.C. They came to this conclusion independently; Velikovsky used a Babylonian inscription from the sixth century B.C., while Rohl used some astronomical observations made about a hundred years after Hammurabi. See Velikovsky's "Hammurabi and the Revised Chronology" (Kronos, Vol. VIII:1, Fall 1982, pg. 78-84), and Chapter 11 of Rohl's Pharaohs and Kings: A Biblical Quest (New York, Crown Publishers, Inc., 1995, pg. 243-249).

3. Whether or not he was accurate, Herodotus makes ancient Egypt come alive in a way no modern writer can--because he was there.

4. Manetho's history did not include the Ptolemies of his own time. Historians tack them onto the end of a list of pharaohs as a thirty-first (XXXI) dynasty.

5. Weill, Bases, Méthodes et Résultats de la Chronologie Égyptienne (Paris, 1926), pg. 1.

6. Breasted, A History of Egypt (2nd ed.), pg. 23.

7. Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs, New York, Oxford University Press, 1961, pg. 53.

8. H. R. Hall, "Egyptian Chronology," Cambridge Ancient History (1st ed.), I, pg. 170.

9. Gardiner, op. cit., pg. 148.

10. As recently as 1960 some books claimed that the Egyptians invented the calendar in 4241 B.C. This came from Borchardt's counting of two Sothic years before 1321 B.C. Nowadays everyone considers this a ridiculously early date.

11. Luft, U., "Remarks of a Philologist on Egyptian Chronology," Äegypten und Levante 3, 1992, pg. 112-113.

12. Dayton, John, "The So-Called Fixed Sothic Date of Sesostris III, 1872 B.C., Kronos, Vol. VI:1, Fall 1980, pgs. 75-77.

13. H. Winlock, The Rise and Fall of the Middle Kingdom in Thebes (New York, 1947).

14. Rose, Lynn, "'Just Plainly Wrong': A Critique of Peter Huber," Kronos, Vol. IV:2, Winter 1978, pg. 34.

15. Mage, Shane H., "Some Notes on Parker's 'Sothic Dating'," Kronos, Vol. VI:1, Fall 1980, pgs. 70.

16. Velikovsky, op. cit., pg. xxi-xxii.

17. Biblical Archaeology Review included in one of Bimson's articles (July/August 1988) a cartoon of an ancient potter at work, and a friend says to him, "Hey, Sam, why are you still making those Late Bronze II B storage jars? Don't you know it's now Iron I?"

18. Bietak is a cautious follower of the conventional chronology, and won't make any sensational claims concerning his excavations in the ancient land of Goshen. The tomb is empty, as one would expect; Exodus 13:19 and Joshua 24:32 tell us that Joseph's mummy was taken by israelites for re-burial.


http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/world ... tapp1.html
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

History of egyptology:
http://theworldshistory.blogspot.in/200 ... egypt.html
The basic unit of Egypt’s ancient history is the dynasty. The most recent histories may count as many as 33 of these. These dynasties are then grouped into Kingdoms and Intermediary Periods, preceded and followed by other unnumbered dynasties and periods. This divides ancient Egyptian history into roughly ten divisions:

- The early Dynastic period: Dynasty 00 to dynasty 2
- The Old Kingdom: Dynasty 3 to Dynasty 7
- First Intermediate Period: Dynasty 8 to Dynasty 11 (part 1)
- Middle Kingdom: Dynasty 11 (part 2) to early Dynasty 13
- Second Intermediate Period: Dynasty 13 to Dynasty 17
- New Kingdom: Dynasty 18 to 20
- Third Intermediate Period: Dynasty 21 to the 24th Dynasty
- Late Period: Dynasty 25 to 31
- Macedonians
- Ptolemies
- Roman Period

Egyptian archaeology during the Dynastic Period has always been tied to the King list. This is important, because all artefacts in Egypt are tied directly or indirectly to material that is dated by royal association. This material is used to date Egyptian material in contexts outside Egypt too. The basic tool for establishing a chronology for ancient Egypt is the king list because the Egyptians themselves dated by regnal years. Some other ancient societies used an ‘era’ system, dating their calendars from specific events (the Greeks dated theirs from the first Olympic Games around 776 BC by our terms, while the Romans started from the foundation of the City of Rome. Some other societies, like the Mesopotamians used eponym lists, naming the year after the chief magistrates. Egypt used none of these systems, hence the importance of the king lists to historians and archaeologists.

The first process for Egyptology was to establish a complete king list. Before the decipherment of hieroglyphics, it was not possible to do this directly from the monuments, and scholarship relied on the evidence of Greek and Latin writers. The first history of Egypt was written by the Egyptian priest Manetho in the reign of Ptolemy II around 280 BC. Called Aigyptiaka (‘On things Egyptian’) it was written for the new Ptolemaic ruling dynasty, just as a near contemporary Babylonian, Berossos, wrote a history of Babylon for the new Seleukid dynasty. Each historian was setting out to prove that his country was the oldest, a matter of prestige to the new Macedonian rulers.

Manetho divided Egyptian history into 31 dynasties, each being a ruling family from a particular city. It’s most likely that Manetho based his own work on Egyptian written sources and traditions, and his dynastic framework probably has some sort of Egyptian tradition behind it. However, no complete version of Aigyptiaka survives, only abridgements, and the king lists are preserved in the writings of later authors. All ancient books were copied by hand, and with books such as this, error would inevitably creep in during the process of transmission. The most important writers to preserve Manetho’s work, are Flavios Josephos and the Christian chronographers Africanus and Eusabius.
With copying, abbreviation and corruption of texts, by AD 80 the preserved versions of Manetho were so far removed from the original that they were virtually useless. It is, perhaps, hard to see why Egyptologists put so much value on Manetho, but in reality, the first Egyptologists had little choice. The texts of Manetho were available for early European scholarship along with a great deal of other Greek and Roman literature, from the Renaissance onwards. Lacking direct access to monuments, and unable to read the hieroglyphic texts, scholars found in Manetho an outline chronology of ancient Egypt, which was then supplemented by information gleaned form Herodotus, Diodoros and many other scholars. Indeed,Jean-Francois Champollion, who is generally considered to be the founding father of modern Egyptology, increased Manetho’s authority when, in 1828, he announced that he could read the names of some of the Egyptian kings recorded by Manetho on monuments. Those kings were Achoris (Hakor), Nepherites (Nefaurud), Psammetichos (Psamtik), Osorcho (Osorkon), Sesonchis (Sheshonq), Rameses and Tuthmosis (Thutmose).

As well as using inconsistent Greek forms of Egyptian names, and occasionally repeating kings, the preserved king lists of Manetho also omit many rulers and the reign lengths rarely agree in the different versions. As his work survives, it is hopelessly garbled in places. But, despite all the problems associated with dynastic divisions, Manetho’s work is so ingrained in Egyptology that it is now impossible to get rid of it; and, despite the problems, the dynastic system is still useful as a basic unit of Egyptian history. Although there are overlapping dynasties, it is safe to assume that the higher the number, the later the dynasty; and remembering which important rulers – or monuments – belong to which dynasty, does help to for a broad cultural-historical framework.

In the early nineteenth century, scholars attempting to decipher hieroglyphic realized that the cartouche contained royal names and therefore began to assemble collections of all those that were visible on monuments. One of the first collections published was in the Description de l’Egypte, the result of the French scholarly expedition of 1798. it was also recognized that cartouches were usually paired; one carrying the personal name of the pharaoh and the other the name that he assumed when he ascended the throne. As European activity in Egypt increased, a number of important ancient king lists were found that aided in the reconstruction of the historical framework.

The Turin Canon of Kings is preserved on papyrus (not in the Museo Egizio, Turin) and dates from the time of Ramesses II. It was reputedly virtually intact when acquired by the French consul in 1823, but by the time Champollion got hold of it, it was a mass of fragments. A German scholar by the name of Gustav Seyffarth, began to examine these fragments in 1826. By looking closely at the fibres of the papyrus he was able to reconstruct sections of it. Despite the efforts of the other scholars, the papyrus ha sstill not been completely restored to everybody’s agreement. It carries a king list divided into groups, with totals of regnal years.

A fragmentary king list cared on a wall in the temple of Ramesses II at Abydos was unearthed by the scholarly traveller William Bankes in 1818, but left there. In 1837 it was removed and later acquired by the British Musem. This list carried cartouches of 52 kings, wit the throne names of rulers beginning with Meni and ending with Ramesses II. In 1825 another, similar list, the Karnak Table of Kings, was recognized, carved on the walls of a small chamber in the temple o Thotmose II at Karnak. The walls carry images of 61 Kings wit their cartouches, of which 48 were legible. In 1843 this was moved to the Louvre in Paris.

The most important of these king lists was found carved on a corridor wall in the temple of Sety I at Abydos during the clearance of the temple of Auguste Mariette. Richard Lepsius published a copy in 1863. The whole scene shows the pharaoh Sety I and the crown prince Ramesses (to be Ramesses II), making offerings to the names of ancestral kings. This list is perfectly preserved but there are certain political omissions such as the entire Second Intermediate Period, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten and his immediate successors.

The Table of Saqqara was found in 1861 in the tomb of an official of Ramesses II named Tjuneroy. It originally had 57 cartouches, some of which were already damaged by the time of their discovery. It is significant that these lists are already Ramesside and that such lists do not survive from other periods. In addition to the King lists, some temples and tombs at Thebes depict processions of royal statues in a similar chronological arrangement.

At the festival of the god of Min, there was a procession of royal statues. This is depicted in the temples of Rameeses II (the Ramesseum) and Ramesses III (Madinet Habu). The earliest ruler shown is Meni, the founder fo the Egyptian state; he is followed by Neb-hepet-ra (Mentjuhopet II) who reunited Egypt and founded the Middle Kingdom. These two pharaohs stand as shorthand for the whole of the Old and Middle Kingdoms. Neb-pehty-ra (Ahmose) reunited Egpyt, and is generally considered as the founder of the New Kingdom. He is followed by the statues of nearly all the pharaohs of the eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties to the reigning sovereign, Ramesses II or III; as is usual, Hatshepsut and the immediate successors of Amenhotep III are omitted.

In addition to these new Kingdom sources, fragments of an Old Kingdom list survive. This is generally known, after the largest surviving piece, as the Palermo Stone. The original document appears to have carried a complex historical text that recorded Old Kingdom rulers with information on their reigns, such as height of inundation, the foundation of temples and military activities. One of the major early organizers of the evidence from the monuments alongside the Greek, Roman and biblical traditions was Ippolito Rosellini (1800-1843), leader, with Champollion, of the joint Franco-Tuscan Egyptian expedition of 1828-29. Following Champollion’s untimely death, Rosellini published the vast amount of material gathered by the expedition in three parts: historical, religions and social. His synthesis of the historical evidence gathered all of the known ancient sources that could be read in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, attached them to Manetho’s chronology, and, wherever possible, added the newly read hieroglyphic cartouches and the monuments where they were to be found. Although Rosellini did not get everything correct, for the first time, Egyptian monuments had been ordered chronologically.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Interesting insights JohneeG. Confirms my suspicions. Edward Said wrote his book "Orientalism" precisely because he recognized the manner in which "western" scholarship appropriated non western knowledge and twisted it to suit their world view. And that is the worldview that now holds fort today
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem »

From Mischievous Eusebius Dubious to Muhammadan Dumdam, seems no other major culture beside Indic had/have the religious, philosophical, spiritual teachings compiled in organised manner , divided among different Panths and Matths and taught under bonafide teachers.This might have been the main impetus for all these Mlecchas trying to manufacture one and TomTom their wares to ignorant masses thus initiating the competition among different Messiahs, Prophets, Books etc trying to claim finality,updated, true revelations. Mosesr-ISISs did to Misr-ISIS, Jesu-ISIS to Mosesr-ISIS and Allah-ISIS to Jesu-ISIS. Basic template and behaviour remain same.
Swami Vivekananda once remarked on the absence of valid , authentic spiritual traditions and teachers in Soul destroying Desertopian Doctrines and land. Desert can't nourish soul and spirituality but stink, sting and sink only to swallow each other.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Murugan »

'Pre-Date' article

Here Lies The First Human... Perhaps
Cut marks on bone fossils found on an Indian foothill could well change the narrative on human evolution


http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/st ... aps/296859
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Murugan wrote:'Pre-Date' article

Here Lies The First Human... Perhaps
Cut marks on bone fossils found on an Indian foothill could well change the narrative on human evolution


http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/st ... aps/296859
“The cut marks have been made by the sharp edge of a chopper or a flake of quartzite. They cannot be confused with natural scratches, or marks made by the teeth of crocodile or hyena,” says Dambricourt. Singh claims that anthropic scavenging at Masol is a scientifically proven discovery: “The hominin was not a hunter but a scavenger back then, who used to claw meat off the bones and break them to eat the marrow.” Manzil Hazarika, a palaeontologist at Bern University in Switzerland, who discovered the shin bone of a bovine ancestor from a cliff here, says that the fossil bore cut marks and its age was exac­tly the same as that of the surrou­nding rocks.
Why the above cannot be true, calling the attention of Times of India, The Hindu, Rajcreep, Soggyreeker and Darkha
  • The work of out of Africa is well accepted by world class archaeolo-gits, orientalists and other nincompoops
  • Indian researchers are below par in a caste ridden society and want funding to attend foreign conferences
  • The scratch marks on the bone could have been caused by any random monkey of sabretoothed tiger
  • It wasn't bone at all - it was stone
  • Hindu revisionists are are always trying to show that everything they have is older than everything else
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

One of the papers, viewable here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8315002237

The lithic industries on the fossiliferous outcrops of the Late Pliocene Masol Formation, Siwalik Frontal Range, northwestern India (Punjab)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Another of the papers:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8315002328
Sedimentological study of major paleonto-archaeological localities of the Late Pliocene Quranwala zone, Siwalik Frontal Range, northwestern India
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

And here is the key one:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8315002304
"Intentional cut marks on bovid from the Quranwala zone, 2.6 Ma, Siwalik Frontal Range, northwestern India"
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem »

shiv wrote:
Murugan wrote:'Pre-Date' article
Here Lies The First Human... Perhaps
Cut marks on bone fossils found on an Indian foothill could well change the narrative on human evolution
“The cut marks have been made by the sharp edge of a chopper or a flake of quartzite. They cannot be confused with natural scratches, or marks made by the teeth of crocodile or hyena,” says Dambricourt.Why the above cannot be true, calling the attention of Times of India, The Hindu, Rajcreep, Soggyreeker and Darkha
  • The work of out of Africa is well accepted by world class archaeolo-gits, orientalists and other nincompoops
  • Indian researchers are below par in a caste ridden society and want funding to attend foreign conferences
  • The scratch marks on the bone could have been caused by any random monkey of sabre toothed tiger.
  • It wasn't bone at all - it was stone
  • Hindu revisionists are are always trying to show that everything they have is older than everything else
The Cut marks explain the violent clashes between Dalits and upper castes as well batt-ling Dravidians with Aryans ( who came from place no evolution but Adam and Eve show ) Strange that Punjab escaped last ice age and scriptures have called it Matr(mother) Desh. We have oldest human settlement, oldest language, poetry ,philosophy, oldest sexriputres, battles, wargames, dances, plays.
Only Danda and Richness lacking now but in near sight to achieve financial and military might .
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Harappans were too stupid for words - and Aryans had to come from Europe to teach them

Harappans made pottery from on big, heavy wooden pottery wheels. But they simply did not have the brains to make a wooden pottery wheel, put it on it's side and roll it to where it was to be used. So they never discovered the use of wheels.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Virendra »

This is ancient DNA, which was in "wanted" status at this thread recently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Neolithic DNA Suggests Major Late Glacial Population Turnover in Europe
Image
The study supports a single and rapid dispersal of all non-Africans populations around 50,000 years ago not only across Asia but also into Europe. Image credit: Annette Guenzel / Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History.

“We uncovered a completely unknown chapter of human history: a major population turnover in Europe at the end of the last Ice Age,” said Dr. Johannes Krause, a researcher at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, Germany, and senior author on a study published this week in the journal Current Biology.

Dr. Krause and co-authors analyzed 55 complete human mitochondrial genomes (mtDNAs) of hunter-gatherers who lived in Italy, Germany, Belgium, France, the Czech Republic, and Romania from 35,000 to 7,000 years ago.

“There has been a real lack of genetic data from this time period, so consequently we knew very little about the population structure or dynamics of the first modern humans in Europe,” Dr. Krause said.
The analysis of these ancient mtDNAs unexpectedly revealed that three individuals from before the coldest period in the last Ice Age (Last Glacial Maximum) that were excavated in present-day Belgium and France belong to a type of mtDNA called haplogroup M.

This lineage is absent in contemporary Europeans, although it is found at high frequency in modern Asians, Australasians, and Native Americans,” Dr. Krause and his colleagues explained.
“I couldn’t believe it,” said Dr. Cosimo Posth from the University of Tübingen, lead author on the study. “The first time I got this result I thought it must be a mistake, because in contemporary Europeans haplogroup M is effectively absent, but is found at high frequency in modern Asians, Australians and Native American populations.”

The absence of the M haplogroup and its presence in other parts of the world had previously led to the argument that non-African people dispersed on multiple occasions to spread across Eurasia and Australasia.

“The discovery of this maternal lineage in Europe in the ancient past now suggests instead that all non-Africans dispersed rapidly from a single population, at a time they place around 50,000 years ago. Then, at some later stage, the M haplogroup was apparently lost from Europe,” the scientist said.
“When the Last Glacial Maximum began around 25,000 years ago, hunter-gatherer populations retreated south to a number of putative refugia, and the consequent genetic bottleneck probably resulted in the loss of this haplogroup,” Dr. Posth said.

The biggest surprise, however, was evidence of a major turnover of the population in Europe around 14,500 years ago, as the climate began to warm.


“Our model suggests that during this period of climatic upheaval, the descendants of the hunter-gatherers who survived through the Last Glacial Maximum were largely replaced by a population from another source,” said co-author Dr. Adam Powell, of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History.
_____

Cosimo Posth et al. Pleistocene Mitochondrial Genomes Suggest a Single Major Dispersal of Non-Africans and a Late Glacial Population Turnover in Europe. Current Biology, published online February 4, 2016; doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2016.01.037
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Lalmohan »

maybe the aryans invaded themselves and replaced their M's
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Virendra »

So we colonized Europe before LGM. Lineage got decimated in LGM and then we re-colonized Europe after LGM.
If you tell it like this, will cause massive heart burn and backend khujli to the other camp :D :D
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Lalmohan »

i remember reading an adult cartoon a while back about a space faring race of barbarians who pillaged their way across the galaxy, destroying as they went. this continued for centuries and millennia, until one day they destroyed a great and noble civilisation... only to find that it was their own ancestors who they had left behind in order to conquer the world.. and had long forgotten
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Lalmohan wrote:i remember reading an adult cartoon a while back about a space faring race of barbarians who pillaged their way across the galaxy, destroying as they went. this continued for centuries and millennia, until one day they destroyed a great and noble civilisation... only to find that it was their own ancestors who they had left behind in order to conquer the world.. and had long forgotten
There was a man from the North sea coast
Whole loved melted shit on toast
when toast saw the shit
it collapsed in a fit
for the shit was it's grandfather's ghost


-just sayin
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by johneeG »

Petrie Flinders was one of the early european egyptologists. Heres the interesting part from his wiki:
Legacy

His painstaking recording and study of artefacts set new standards in archaeology, saying "I believe the true line of research lies in the noting and comparison of the smallest details." By linking styles of pottery with periods, he was the first to useseriation in Egyptology, a new method for establishing the chronology of a site. Flinders Petrie was also responsible for mentoring and training a whole generation of Egyptologists, including Howard Carter. After his death, his wife, Hilda Petriecreated a student travel scholarship to Egypt on the Centennial of Petrie's birth in 1905. Petrie remains a controversial figure for his pro-eugenics views and opinions on other social topics, which spilled over into his disputes with the British Museum's Egyptology expert, E. A. Wallis Budge. Budge's contention that the religion of the Egyptians was essentially identical to the religions of the people of northeastern and central Africa was regarded by his colleagues as impossible, since all but a few followed Petrie in his contention that the culture of Ancient Egypt was derived from an invading Caucasoid "Dynastic Race" which had conquered Egypt in late prehistory and introduced the Pharaonic culture.[19] Petrie was a dedicated follower ofeugenics, believing that there was no such thing as cultural or social innovation in human society, but rather that all social change is the result of biological change, such as migration and foreign conquest resulting in interbreeding. Petrie claimed that his "Dynastic Race", in which he never ceased to believe, was a "fine" Caucasoid race that entered Egypt from the south in late predynastic times, conquered the "inferior" and "exhausted" "mulatto" race then inhabiting Egypt, and slowly introduced the finer Dynastic civilisation as they interbred with the inferior indigenous people.[20] Petrie, who was also affiliated with a variety of far right-wing groups and anti-democratic thought in England and was a dedicated believer in the superiority of the Northern peoples over the Latinate and Southern peoples,[21] derided Budge's belief that the ancient Egyptians were an African people with roots in eastern Africa as impossible and "unscientific", as did his followers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flinders_Petrie

notice any similarities to aryan invasion theory?

-----
Why is it called 'last glacial maximum'? Why not call it 'last ice maximum' or 'snow maximum'?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Murugan »

Harappans made pottery from on big, heavy wooden pottery wheels. But they simply did not have the brains to make a wooden pottery wheel, put it on it's side and roll it to where it was to be used. So they never discovered the use of wheels.
Harappans did not know how to make delicate pottery.

Recovered even after 4000 years at one of the Haryana sites lying exposed in open, were subject to battering by hailstones and they remained unbroken/undamaged (eye-witness account)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Murugan »

johneeg garu:

Swastika related links:

1) https://archive.org/details/Swastika_geoglyph
2) https://archive.org/details/32882006810041
3) https://archive.org/details/TheSwastikaOfIranian

Interestingly solid evidence of Swastika is from ISVC sites (Indus Saraswati, Harappa) sites. Nice account by TIFR guys

http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/ ... mmetry.pdf

Widely used motif in ancient Greece:
5th Century BCE Tetrobol Macedonia
Image
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by ramana »

Lets keep on top of this. Will get some top DNA sequencers to follow it.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

When it comes to trade and craft, the layers suggest that, from initially making jewellery from materials such as shell and beads imported from Gujarat, Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu, the civilisation progressed to using intricate tin-glazed pottery, then lapis lazuli imported all the way from Afghanistan, and finally, trinkets made of 18-carat gold imported from the Hatti gold mines in Karnataka.
The team also found carnelian beads decorated with alkaline material, identical to beads found in ancient Mesopotamia, a region now comprising Iraq and parts of Iran, Syria and Turkey.

"By 3000 BC, the Harappans were already trading far and wide and had a deep understanding of art, architecture and material use. They also had the technology to build complicated homes and made metal jewellery," Shinde say
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by suryag »

from the article, the bodies were laid to rest with their heads north, dont the hindus who bury put the head to south(or is it north) ?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Pulikeshi »

^^^ AFAIK and IMVHO - there is no prescribed directionality... there are folks who still bury padmasana (lotus pose) style.
There are all directions possible for burials and there are those that cremate, scatter ashes, bury ashes, etc. etc.
The specifics has much more to do with parampara (tradition) and jaathi rather than anything else.
Pulikeshi
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Pulikeshi »

This is one of the deepest trenches of any Harappan site, offering insight into two different eras of Harappan culture - from 4000 BC to 2600 BC, and from 2600 BC to 2000 BC.
What is this two phase culture that is being taked about here... I thought there was mature Harappa -
latter period and early Harappa which was way into antiquity.
If I find DNA from the previous period and it is Indian, then they will ask you to search for later
phase DNA which is Aryan - what is this joke?

What is the take of Indian Archeology on using BC vs. alternatives? Why not just use BP?
Radio Carbon Dates are in BP - so it is hilarious that we need to convert this back into BC for idiots?
It is idiotic in this day and age to be using these antiquated terminology...
same goes for Newspapers and DDM in India. Depressing that there is no sense
of self in this civilization!
vishvak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by vishvak »

Radio Carbon Dates are in BP - so it is hilarious that we need to convert this back into BC ..
It is unscientific but contemporary only, like weekend which may not be historic before 4k BC. This is what education can give certification on. Any other methodology, however scientific, may not be called as secular.

By the way,
From blog tumblr link, http://spinhxara.tumblr.com/post/349666 ... arly-india
..
New evidence provides insight on early India; circular grain silos dating back 7380-6201 BC, shattering the belief that Indian culture started around 3750 BC.

This means they rivalled Mesopotamia in age, and pre-date the Egyptians. Wonderful discovery.
The reference link link is not working anymore.
svinayak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by svinayak »

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/ ... pe=article

Population control. Wars during history
Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

shiv wrote:
When it comes to trade and craft, the layers suggest that, from initially making jewellery from materials such as shell and beads imported from Gujarat, Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu, the civilisation progressed to using intricate tin-glazed pottery, then lapis lazuli imported all the way from Afghanistan, and finally, trinkets made of 18-carat gold imported from the Hatti gold mines in Karnataka.
This clear-cut sign of intra-national trade between Haryana & South India bangs another nail in the AIT coffin. It shows that Indian races are one & the same - and have been trading/mixing with each other since antiquity. So, what did the supposed Aryans do? Invaded Haryana, replaced their language with Sanskrit & stop trade with the black Dravidians? What crock!
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