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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 09:57

One thing I would like to point out based on a readings of a lot of palaeo botany material. It is probably pointless to search for Mahabharata or even "Vedic culture" in Harappa. By all accounts "Peak Vedic culture" preceded Harappa by 2-3000 years. Most likely Vedas themselves date from at least as bar back as 8000 BC (or earlier) when there is definite proof of Saraswati reaching the Arabian sea.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 09 Dec 2017 10:00

shiv wrote:Lets get this straight.
THERE_WERE_NO_ARYANS

Read this
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/aryans- ... y-scholars

I know that, sir. I am talking about our pidi historians. If they want to promote this mythical aryan race, they should atleast have decency to construct this society first, then talk about migration.

Some how with working caste system and everything, the so called Aryan race lived on wheels. It's like fully matured society on wheels. How this system worked when the society is on constant move is beyond my understanding.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby bharotshontan » 09 Dec 2017 10:03

Dipanker wrote:So what happened to the Andronovo => Sintashta => BMAC people? Did some of them make it India or not? Were they the carriers of R1a1* to India? Did some of these people also end up in Tarim basin in China( Tocharian mummies carrying R1a1* DNA )?

Why is it that other than the commonality of R1a1* between Indians and Central Asians no other non-R1a1* Indian DNA is found in Central Asia/Europe ( sans the recent migration)? This particular evidence pretty much rules out any out of India migration to Europe unless and until R1a1* went out of India instead of being brought in by Andronovo=>Sintashta=>BMAC=>Swat-culture=>Cemetry H migration? So far no evidence has been provided.


No tribe in the world exists as one uniparental marker alone. Every geneticist warns against using uniparental y markers as evidence of population movement. Every Bangladeshi peaceful humping 4+ is creating massive founder effects as we speak compared to you and I.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 10:08

bharotshontan wrote:
Dipanker wrote:So what happened to the Andronovo => Sintashta => BMAC people? Did some of them make it India or not? Were they the carriers of R1a1* to India? Did some of these people also end up in Tarim basin in China( Tocharian mummies carrying R1a1* DNA )?

Why is it that other than the commonality of R1a1* between Indians and Central Asians no other non-R1a1* Indian DNA is found in Central Asia/Europe ( sans the recent migration)? This particular evidence pretty much rules out any out of India migration to Europe unless and until R1a1* went out of India instead of being brought in by Andronovo=>Sintashta=>BMAC=>Swat-culture=>Cemetry H migration? So far no evidence has been provided.


No tribe in the world exists as one uniparental marker alone. Every geneticist warns against using uniparental y markers as evidence of population movement. Every Bangladeshi peaceful humping 4+ is creating massive founder effects as we speak compared to you and I.

That aside - no one has provided even the minutest shred of proof that the Andronovo people spoke a precursor of IE languages. That is simply an assumption. Combine that with the lies that Andronovo pits are mentioned in the Rig Veda you get the scale of bullshitting that lingusists and historians have resorted to to suit their language origin theories.

Genes of course do not code for language.

But let me still make an assertion about genes. Children typically learn language from mothers. For language history - look for Mitochondrial DNA

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby bharotshontan » 09 Dec 2017 10:22

My simple request to the learned gurus here is to provide holistic explanations to all findings as they come and not just in Indo centric fashion with sole aim at refuting a defunct AIT but towards explaining population structure worldwide. For a first, Rakhigarhi will be the first aDNA being mined from the Indian subcontinent. Lack of ancient DNA from subcontinent is a massive hole in all genetic understandings and every geneticist worth his weight admits this because the bulk of mankind in the timeframe of interest lived between India to Philippines. Besides Rakhigarhi, the only aDNA found from Indian subcontinent was only last year of 8 bodies over a spread of 3000 years in Nepal. Below is a map of all ancient DNA so far found and sequenced, note besides the Nepali results, how subcontinent draws a blank and so does Southeast Asia.
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/anc ... 7#1/-45/32
Reason for the blank is mainly lack of investigation so far as well as faster rate of decay of fossils in tropical climate. Still the finds in Africa came about very recently as well. Just let us be patient and wait for Rakhigarhi and more subcontinent aDNA across wide time spectrum to show up. The Nepal study shows population remains homogeneous over thousands of years across vastly different cultural phases and closest population to the remains are the Sherpa people. The study itself contrasts that in Europe and central and west Asia, culture shifts are accompanied by genetic shifts but not the case in Nepal. Similar was also recognized over last decade regarding the northeast Africa as well. Initially white colonists planted the origin of Afro Asiatic family tree (father of Semitic and other language groups) in Iraq. Then the first set of aDNA coming from middle east began being interpreted as affirming the old hypothesis. Finally when more aDNA started coming from Africa itself, it began bringing the roots of Afro Asiatic language family back in towards Ethiopia.
So let's just be patient. I'm confident there is no population upheaval in subcontinent. That whole Andronovo,BMAC, etc is just Paleolithic continuity which one will see no matter what time slice in history one breaks it down at. You will see it today. You will see it two thousand years ago. You will see it twelve thousand years ago.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 10:26

bharotshontan wrote:My simple request to the learned gurus here is to provide holistic explanations to all findings as they come and not just in Indo centric fashion with sole aim at refuting a defunct AIT but towards explaining population structure worldwide.

I think you are jumping the gun. Would you be able to point out any example internationally where the genetic picture can be used to identify language? This is the problem. Genetics is being confused with linguistics.

The reason is the fake AIT which which caused genetics researchers to go on a wild goose chase searching for non existent 1500-1000 BC Aryan migrations

Disconnect genetics from language. Genes is genes. Language is language. Language does not tell about genes. Genes do not tell about language.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby bharotshontan » 09 Dec 2017 10:27

This is the aDNA study from Nepal Annapurna Conservation Area on Nepal Tibet border region. 8 skeletons were found. 1 from 3000 years ago, 3 from 2000 years ago and 4 from 1200 years ago.
http://m.pnas.org/content/113/27/7485.full#T1

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby bharotshontan » 09 Dec 2017 10:36

shiv wrote:
bharotshontan wrote:My simple request to the learned gurus here is to provide holistic explanations to all findings as they come and not just in Indo centric fashion with sole aim at refuting a defunct AIT but towards explaining population structure worldwide.

I think you are jumping the gun. Would you be able to point out any example internationally where the genetic picture can be used to identify language? This is the problem. Genetics is being confused with linguistics.

The reason is the fake AIT which which caused genetics researchers to go on a wild goose chase searching for non existent 1500-1000 BC Aryan migrations

Disconnect genetics from language. Genes is genes. Language is language. Language does not tell about genes. Genes do not tell about language.


I believe the approach is to understand the limitations to applying genetics to linguistics and vice versa (especially uniparental markers as opposed to autosomal) but not totally discount where one can complement the other. The same approach is and has been used to also understand all other language families from Afro Asiatic to Bantu expansions to Dravidian to Sino Tibetan to Austronesian. There is limited success in all these and still confusion and nobody in scientific community is claiming one way or other with guarantee, but again this is because the aDNA is missing from vast portions of the world. The father of R1a which is pan West+ Central+ South Eurasian and R2 which is pan subcontinental, is undifferentiated P*, found only in Aeta tribals of Philippines. So more than likely, even without aDNA and just from looking at genetic diversity, one can make a case for more of southeast to northwest movement of males in prehistoric era across Eurasia than the other way around as was posited by those that had interest in promoting AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby bharotshontan » 09 Dec 2017 10:45

shiv wrote: Children typically learn language from mothers. For language history - look for Mitochondrial DNA


That may be true but we're talking marriage not rape here. For the most part women take their husband's ethnic identity if they're from a different background. I've never heard Abhishek Bachchan or Saif Ali Khan speak Bengali.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 12:07

bharotshontan wrote:I believe the approach is to understand the limitations to applying genetics to linguistics and vice versa (especially uniparental markers as opposed to autosomal) but not totally discount where one can complement the other. The same approach is and has been used to also


Pardon me. I do not mean this in a nasty sense but I believe that you may be unaware of, or ignoring a critical fact and thereby encouraging GIGO and fudging.

Genetics is a science. Linguistics - especially historical linguistics or philology that deals with language spread is pure cooked up and often racist nonsense. It is NOT science.

This has led to a curious and unnecessary situation in which diligent and competent genetics researchers who try to search for references on historic migrations end up finding 200 years of racist inspired crap that has been placed in history books by rascally historical linguists and never cross checked or corrected. I have actually seen these fake linguistic migration refs along with others at the end of genetics papers. These fake theories sitting uncorrected in history books are leading geneticists up the garden path, chasing windmills.

I would caution you and others to stop imagining that wild language migration theories and blatantly cooked up dates would be "mutually beneficial"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 12:12

bharotshontan wrote:
shiv wrote: Children typically learn language from mothers. For language history - look for Mitochondrial DNA


That may be true but we're talking marriage not rape here. For the most part women take their husband's ethnic identity if they're from a different background. I've never heard Abhishek Bachchan or Saif Ali Khan speak Bengali.

The assumption that rape played a major role in language spread is just that. It is an assumption. No one who claims to use science must use wild and baseless assumptions without providing at least a hypothesis as to why he thinks rape may have played a major role.

Till such time I request that you speak for yourself and do not include me by claiming that "we are talking" something or the other. You may be doing that. Not me.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 09 Dec 2017 19:08

Gyan wrote:A small query:- What date is Nilesh Oak giving to Vedas? Also is he saying Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, refers to events pre Harappa?

My talk here covers the gist of it.

The dating of specific Mandalas of Rigveda based on absolute chronology of Mahabharata & Ramayana (6th millennium BCE & 13th millennium BCE)

Last (10th Mandala of Rigveda) - 6th millennium BCE

Earliest (6,3,7,2) mandalas of Rigveda - definitely before 15,000 BCE

And yes...Harappa civilization ( ~ 4000 BCE - 2000 BCE) is post-Mahabharata, post-Ramayana, post-Rigveda.

https://youtu.be/cYFmDqBXJo4

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 19:57


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Gyan » 09 Dec 2017 20:12

Thanx the answers

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 20:15

To repeat, for the 3rd or 4th time on this thread
R1A1a1 (M 17) distribution and place of origin (after Underhill)
Image

Although the R1a1a* frequency and diversity is highest among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers, the subhaplogroup R1a1a7-M458 frequency peaks among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples. Although this distinction by geography is not directly informative about the internal divisions of these separate language families, it might bear some significance for assessing dispersal models that have been proposed to explain the spread of Indo-Aryan languages in South Asia as it would exclude any significant patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, at least since the mid-Holocene period.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Dec 2017 23:09

Reading this it is EZ 2 understand why Vedic society went kaput.
12AM - 1PM LUNCH

THAT's what I call a Conference! :mrgreen:

Ramana: I think Waldies etc are long-since extinct. First, the road in front of the EyeEyeTea gate is now an elevated road, and one makes U-turns on to the dirt road underneath. The haute Cuisine places such as Waldies, the chinese restaurant, Sangeetha, the Adyar porotta place all extinct. So is the Velacheri open air chai shop with the unmatched pakistan fragrance. Taramani & Velachery now posh conference centers/ high-rise hotels & flats. Free swimming pools during cyclones because all the water drainage areas between Velacheri and the ocean are now flats. General clutter and crowds and construction debris everywhere. Hordes and hordes of ishtudantz, must be 20 times as many as there were in the Good Ol' Dins. Highly commercialized, sort of mini Parry's Corner minus the "drugstores".

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby dsreedhar » 09 Dec 2017 23:16

A slightly diff aspect in the Aryan-Dravid theory -
Have there been any African (black) migrations to India prior to 2000yrs? If yes, is it likely some darker Indians are linked to Africans and brought their culture along? How would that play into this?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prasad » 09 Dec 2017 23:27

Within the MB itself, there are stories that take place on the banks of the saraswati. The river is dry, banks spare and no deer and other animals roam where once the river was full, forests were on its banks full of deer and other animals. Also, hermitages full of sages.
There is also the story of vishwamitra eating dog meat from the hut of a chandala despite it being wrong, out of hunger. Balaramas journey also mentions the river drying up. History passed down and put into stories cannot be hand wanted away so easily.
Dismissing history while hoisting up their own flawed inferences is something the trushkes of the world do very well.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 09 Dec 2017 23:28

dsreedhar wrote:A slightly diff aspect in the Aryan-Dravid theory -
Have there been any African (black) migrations to India prior to 2000yrs? If yes, is it likely some darker Indians are linked to Africans and brought their culture along? How would that play into this?


You have to go at the very least some 50-40,000 years and ideally around 60k-80k years before present for African "black" migration to India prior to 2000 years.

In fact the Australian aborigine is a 40k year old culture and is a straight offshoot from India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 09 Dec 2017 23:29

Prasad wrote:Dismissing history while hoisting up their own flawed inferences is something the trushkes of the world do very well.


Trushke is the AurangaZebini of Indian History. Best is to ignore her in general and once in a while disabuse her of her racist notions.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 10 Dec 2017 00:34

dsreedhar wrote:A slightly diff aspect in the Aryan-Dravid theory -
Have there been any African (black) migrations to India prior to 2000yrs? If yes, is it likely some darker Indians are linked to Africans and brought their culture along? How would that play into this?


Islamic invaders ssupposedly brought along African slaves.

Some excerpts from the Cambridge history of India:
(Volume III,published 1928 )
( around 1481, about Bengal )
... Fath Shah was a wise and beneficient ruler, but incurred the hostility of the African slaves who thronged the court by curbing their insolence and punishing their excesses...( In 1486 the malcontents )..took advantage of the absence from court,..., of Indil Khan, who, though an African,was a loyal subject of Fath Shah and an able military commander to compass the king's death.( around 1493, Bengal)

Among Husain's earliest reforms was the expulsion from the kingdom of all Africans, ... whose presence was a danger to the throne. During the 17 years preceding Husain's accession three kings of this race had occupied the throne ... The exiles in vain sought an asylum in Delhi and Jaunpur, where they were too well known to be welcome, and most of them ultimately drifted to the Deccan and Gujarat, where men of their race had for many years been largely employed.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 10 Dec 2017 00:56

How come we are discussing about only Hindu scriptures. What happened to Jain Agamas?

Aren't they part of history? Their thirthankaras are damn old. Surely they are not aliens.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 10 Dec 2017 00:59

https://tworains.wordpress.com/2017/07/ ... est-india/
...TwoRains has implemented a seasonal multi-temporal approach to the detection of palaeorivers over large areas. We have made use of twenty-eight years of Landsat 5 data – and a total of 2266 multi-spectral images, which have been bulk processed using Google© Earth Engine Code Editor and cloud computing infrastructure. An open-access journal article detailing the methodology and results obtained has been published in the journal Remote Sensing, where it can be accessed free of charge (http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/9/7/735). The code employed to generate these analysis has also been made publicly available (as supplementary material in the article) with the hope that other researchers can employ the same methods in their investigations.


The application of this approach on the Sutlej-Yamuna interfluve, has enabled the reconstruction of an unsuspectedly complex palaeoriver network comprising more than 8000 km of palaeochannels (figure 3). These results prove that the factors influencing water availability along the Ghaggar-Hakra basin are much more complex than previously thought. The palaeorivers that have been identified cover a large part of the northern sector – forming an almost continuous parallel pattern, which points to the changing nature of these channels and the likelihood that floods and avulsions were relatively common. The waters feeding the various palaeo-rivers originated from glacier-fed sources as well as monsoonal rain which is likely to have contributed to both perennial and ephemeral rivers, and the geographic source of watercourses ranges from the Himalayas to the Aravalli mountains. All these factors combine to create an extremely complex picture in which water availability and location is dependent upon a multiplicity of factors and is difficult to predict in the long term.


Figure 3: Palaeorivers detected in the study area combining different seasonal multitemporal analyses
Image

The results obtained have also enabled the definition of the morphology of these relict courses, which provides insights into the environmental conditions in which they operated. These new data will contribute to a better understanding of the settlement distribution and environmental settings in which this the Indus Civilisation operated. Next steps include getting more dates for when water flowed in these channels, and the accurate identification and location of archaeological sites across this vast area. Stay tuned.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 10 Dec 2017 07:08

syam wrote:How come we are discussing about only Hindu scriptures. What happened to Jain Agamas?

Aren't they part of history? Their thirthankaras are damn old. Surely they are not aliens.


Problem is that the translations of the Jain Agamas is all in English. Further research from the Jain sites in S. India needs to be carried out to get a clearer perspective., since several sites in N. India were destroyed due to Islamic holocaust.

You do bring up an important point., leaving out the Jain Agamas gives space to cockroaches like DevDutt who then use it to create further fissures in Indic Civilization.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 07:19

syam wrote:How come we are discussing about only Hindu scriptures. What happened to Jain Agamas?

Aren't they part of history? Their thirthankaras are damn old. Surely they are not aliens.

This thread started with the need to tear down fake history of "Aryans" - which is a cooked up name derived from the Vedas. That is how Hindu past gets discussed so much. Jain references have come up from time to time but those references are always dates created by the same liars who made up and propagate the Aryan invasion theory.

If you have some ideas about the dates of Jain scriptures please post. They will be a useful addition to this body of knowledge and educative for us. Remember that racist Europeans did not really give a damn about Jains - their focus was on laying claim to the Sanskrit language which gave them a connection to history older than the history of the hated Jews which had been found in Assyria. That racist past was forgotten after WW2 and people are still sticking to outdated assumptions. Every one of us must contribute with our research and our knowledge. If you know something or feel something please blurt it out

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 07:24

dsreedhar wrote:A slightly diff aspect in the Aryan-Dravid theory -
Have there been any African (black) migrations to India prior to 2000yrs? If yes, is it likely some darker Indians are linked to Africans and brought their culture along? How would that play into this?

What do you mean "darker Indians are linked to Africans" and brought "their" culture along? Are you suggesting that "fairer Indians" are not linked to Africans and did not bring "their" (African) culture? You seem to have some old European racist biases in your head. You are speaking the language of racist Indologists AND their current day descendants the Christian evangelists who seek to widen an artificial Aryan-Dravidian divide by creating new fake theories.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 10 Dec 2017 11:12

Something I found here and there.
When brahmin starts vedic ritual, first he has to mention the location and time of the ritual. It's very important for any big ritual. It is called sankalpa.
This sankalpa has two parts. One is location and another is time. Time tells us about which kalpa, mahayuga, manvanthara, yuga, year down to hours.

Location tells about the place the ritual takes place. It goes like this,
Jambudveepe Bharatha Varshe Bharata Khande

Jambudvipa here is one of the seven dvipa. Those seven dvipa are Jambudvipa, Plaksadvipa, Salmalidvipa, Kusadvipa, Krouncadvipa, Sakadvipa, and Pushkaradvipa. Each island is surrounded by seven oceans made of salt-water, sugarcane juice, wine, ghee, curd, milk and water respectively.

This Jambudvipa was further divided into nine varshas (geographical regions) of which one was Bharatha Varsha. The other eight varshas were Ketumula Varsha, Hari Varsha, Ilavrita Varsha, Kuru Varsha, Hiranyaka Varsha, Ramyaka Varsha, Kimpurusha Varsha, Bhadrasva Varsha.


I bet historians ignored this part and labelled it as some fantastic imagination. After all this provides nothing.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 10 Dec 2017 14:01

shiv wrote: If you know something or feel something please blurt it out

The birth of Mahavira is mentioned in Kalpa Suthra, which is written after the passing of Mahavira. English translations of it,
In that period, in that age lived the Venerable Ascetic Mahavira, the five (most important moments of whose life happened) when the moon was in conjunction with the asterism Uttaraphalguni; to wit, in Uttaraphalguni he descended (from heaven), and having descended (thence), he entered the womb (of Devananda); in Uttaraphalguni he was removed from the womb (of Devananda) to the womb (of Trisala); in Uttaraphalguni he was born; in Uttaraphalguni, tearing out his hair, he left the house and entered the state of houselessness; in Uttaraphalguni he obtained the highest knowledge and intuition, called Kevala, which is infinite, supreme, unobstructed, unimpeded, complete, and perfect. But in Svati the Venerable One obtained final liberation.

In that period, in that age the Venerable Ascetic Mahavira, having on the sixth day of the fourth month of summer, in the eighth fortnight, the light (fortnight) of Ashadha, descended from the great Vimana, the all-victorious and all-prosperous Pushpottara, which is like the lotus amongst the best things, where he had lived for twenty Sagaropamas till the termination of his allotted length of life, of his (divine nature, and of his existence (among gods); here in the continent of Gambudvipa, in Bharatavarsha,-when of this Avasarpini era the Sushamasushama, the Sushama, and Sushamaduhshama periods, and the greater part of the Duhshamasushama period (containing a Kodakodi [a koti of kotis or 100,000,000,000,000] of Sagaropamas, less forty-two thousand years) had elapsed, and only seventy-two years, eight and a half months were left, after twenty-one Tirthakaras of the race of Ikshvaku and of the Kasyapa gotra, and two of the race of Hari and of the Gautama gotra, on the whole twenty-three Tirthakaras had appeared,-the Venerable Ascetic Mahavira, the last of the Tirthakaras, took the form-of an embryo in the womb of Devananda, of the Galandhariyana gotra, the wife of the Brahmana Rishabhadatta, of the gotra of Kodala, in the brahmanical part of the town Kundagrama in the middle of the night, when the moon was in conjunction with the asterism Uttaraphalguni, after his allotted length of life, of his (divine) nature, and of his existence (amongst gods) had come to their termination.


This is clearly written. The exact place and location of the birth. The bold part is the location. It is very similar to vedic sankalpa. I wish I know how to calculate exact date but it is there. The similarity between the vedic ritual and this notation very surprising.

My point is, we should consider Jain texts too when studying vedic texts. May be we can find the link b/w ascetic life and ritual samsaric life and firmly establish it as part of the life history of this land.
Last edited by syam on 10 Dec 2017 15:35, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby syam » 10 Dec 2017 14:52

Small story about King Baratha. . King Baratha is son of first thirthankar.
After Rishabhanatha developed a desire for renunciation, he distributed his kingdom to his hundred sons, of whom Bharata got the city of Vinita (Ayodhya) and Bahubali got the city of Podanapur (Taxila).
His coronation was followed by a long journey of world conquest.
During his digvijaya (winning six divisions of earth in all directions), he acquired the nine nidhis (most precious treasures) and fourteen ratna (jewels).
Then, he proceeded for his capital Ayodhyapuri with a huge army and the divine chakra-ratna (spinning, disk-like super weapon with serrated edges).
But the chakra-ratna, surprisingly, stopped on its own at the entrance of Ayodhyapuri signalling that there still remain his 99 brothers who have refused submission to his supreme authority.
98 of them became munis (ascetics) and submitted their kingdoms to him.
Bahubali refused to submit and challenged him for a fight.
It was decided that to settle the dispute, three kinds of contests can be held between Bharata and Bahubali.
These were, eye-fight (staring at each other), jala-yuddha (water-fight) and mala-yuddha (wrestling).
Bahubali won all the three contests, but instead of throwing Bharata down on the ground in the wrestling (last fight), he lifted him up on his shoulder and then gently placed him on the ground, out of an affectionate regard for him.
Humiliated and infuriated, Bharata called for his divine weapon chakra-ratna.
Instead of harming Bahubali, it merely circled round him and came to rest in front of him. This had happened because such divine weapons lose their effectiveness when confronted with the master’s close relations.
After this Bahubali, developed a desire for renunciation and gave up his kingdom to become a Jain monk.

*source wiki

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby TKiran » 10 Dec 2017 19:02

Shiv sir, in Vishnu Purana there's mention of "uchchaisrava" which is a seven headed horse raising out of milky ocean. The seven heads are colours in VIBGYOR whereas the horse itself is white light. Surya takes this horse and he is called "Sapthaasvaradhamaaroodha"

So horse has been very much known subject by the time "Vishnu Purana" was made.

Hope this piece of information is useful for your dating of vedas project.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 19:13

I think it would be a great idea to link Jain dates with Hindu dates. But I want to caution people that unlike the "recent" documented "history" of a mere 2000 years post Yesu Krista (Je-sus Chry-st) Hindu and Jain history goes back thousands of years. teh exact dates are less important than the people and knowledge. Also there has been enough time for less learned people to fudge dates and misinterpret things. For example it is now well known and increasingly well documented that the Vedas have a double meaning - a "surface meaning" and a "deep esoteric meaning". This has been documented by ancient scholars like Yaska and more recently by Vidyarthi Aurobindo and Kashyap. Unfortunately Sayana's version of the Vedas has completely ignored the deep meanings and that version was used by Max Muller, William Jones etc - so the Vedas do read like abominable bullshit in English.
So it would be wrong to assume that dates like 75,00,00,00,00,000 years ago were either literal or as "code numbers". Trying to "prove this" is fine as long as you believe it yourself, But trying to convince others is critical.

Let me use my usual BRF analogy to illustrate. As long as I imagine in my mind that Angelina Jolie is running desperately after me - it is perfectly fine. But if I have to prove it to others there are some obvious problems.

I believe we have to pick on things in the Jain record that can be correlated with other work. But if you are looking at astronomical dates - there is no alternative to burning the midnight oil and coming up with the dates that people can relate to. The "general knowledge" of Jain literature is pathetic among the general public - and someone would have to work on it.

may I point out that while I curse the west for their buggering about with out history, they are where they are because people sat down and worked on our texts. Mulle, Griffithe etc worked on the Vedas . Anquetil du Perron sat with a priest in Gujarat and learned Parsi Gathas. So BRF can only be a bouncing off point. People who have ideas must burn the midnight oil.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 19:15

TKiran wrote:Shiv sir, in Vishnu Purana there's mention of "uchchaisrava" which is a seven headed horse raising out of milky ocean. The seven heads are colours in VIBGYOR whereas the horse itself is white light. Surya takes this horse and he is called "Sapthaasvaradhamaaroodha"

So horse has been very much known subject by the time "Vishnu Purana" was made.

Hope this piece of information is useful for your dating of vedas project.

Horse is no longer a topic that we need to worry about. Horses were well know in the hoary past in India including Veda era, long before puranas Though I believe they were Arabian horses not Oiropean.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 19:21

A_Gupta wrote:
dsreedhar wrote:A slightly diff aspect in the Aryan-Dravid theory -
Have there been any African (black) migrations to India prior to 2000yrs? If yes, is it likely some darker Indians are linked to Africans and brought their culture along? How would that play into this?


Islamic invaders ssupposedly brought along African slaves.

Some excerpts from the Cambridge history of India:
(Volume III,published 1928 )
( around 1481, about Bengal )
... Fath Shah was a wise and beneficient ruler, but incurred the hostility of the African slaves who thronged the court by curbing their insolence and punishing their excesses...( In 1486 the malcontents )..took advantage of the absence from court,..., of Indil Khan, who, though an African,was a loyal subject of Fath Shah and an able military commander to compass the king's death.( around 1493, Bengal)

Among Husain's earliest reforms was the expulsion from the kingdom of all Africans, ... whose presence was a danger to the throne. During the 17 years preceding Husain's accession three kings of this race had occupied the throne ... The exiles in vain sought an asylum in Delhi and Jaunpur, where they were too well known to be welcome, and most of them ultimately drifted to the Deccan and Gujarat, where men of their race had for many years been largely employed.


Siddis of India

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 10 Dec 2017 20:59

shiv wrote:
peter wrote:
Where are you getting the forest information from? Arjun had to clear a massive forest to build indraprastha and this was in the period when saraswati was breaking up circa 3000 BC that is. I do not understand what is the logic of cotton not being mentioned?


"circa 3000 BC" - that is a lump of bullshit inserted by you
Mahabharata does not say 3000 BC. It only speaks of forest.


Please mind your language. Circa 3000 BC is a dating of Mahabharata that is in tune with sanskrit inscriptions of kings of India, the tradition of Kaliyuga starting with the demise of Krishna, and astronomical observations mentioned in the Mahabharata.

Saraswati breaking up chronology is given in the woods hole paper published some years back.


shiv wrote:"Break up of Saraswati" is also new bullshit. From you. The only references to Saraswati are "Saraswati" disappearing in the desert. Not "break up".

Mahabhrata says more. Please read it.

shiv wrote:
It used to flow up to the desert and sink underground there. Dozens of academic papers that deal with pollen studies of the Harappan area speak of dry desert scrub and not forest after 4000 BC. Except in Gujarat area that had "riverine forests"

This can't be believed. Haryana area had massive forests even till the medieval times.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 10 Dec 2017 21:11

shiv wrote:
peter wrote:Which errors?

Imagining the history and geography of the Helmand river

Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’. Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters.

Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 10 Dec 2017 21:28

peter: which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river.


The river does not become "cosmic or mystical" just because linguists pretend it was -- all we have for "proof" is this claim based on some random theory cooked up regarding word origins, and claims that studiously ignores ALL other corroborating evidence to the contrary, as you have proven by repeating the same BS about word origins of sarawati, when the original question considered other references that do not make geographical sense. -- if there is proof of corroborating geographical references that indicate that this river is in a different place than what you linguists are claiming, then the river was not all that "cosmis and mystical" but just ran dry over time as "climate change" happened back then, as it is happening today.

Research in actual fields of hard science that corroborate references to Saraswati and the adjoining geographical features are a better proof than the lurid fantasies of linguists who apparently get to pretend something is "cosmic and mystical" just because they make that claim without proof, and worse, refuse to look at other corroborating evidence as it rubbish all their stupid and fanstastic theories and prove all these academics as bare faced liars, like you have repeatedly proving yourself to be. You answer questions that were not put to you and refuse to answer the questions put to you -- sheer intellectual and literal dishonesty.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 22:01

peter wrote:Please mind your language. Circa 3000 BC is a dating of Mahabharata that is in tune with sanskrit inscriptions of kings of India, the tradition of Kaliyuga starting with the demise of Krishna, and astronomical observations mentioned in the Mahabharata.

I have not mentioned anything about the dating of the Mahabharata other than agreeing with Nilesh Oak and agreeing this dates are credible and in conformity with the papers I have been reading. I am only talking of Vedas, Manusmriti and Harappa. Nothing that you say goes against the dating of the Vedas back to 10,000 years ago. Or dating of Manusmriti between 9000 to 5000 years ago.

What you believe about Mahabharata is what you believe. I happen to agree with Nilesh Oak. If you don't like that it's not my problem.

peter wrote:This can't be believed. Haryana area had massive forests even till the medieval times.

That is quite OK. There is no need for you to believe it. It is your right to believe whatever you wish. Rajasthan where most of the Early Harappan sites are did not have forest.

I need to see proof about Haryana forests in medieval times. What the hell is "medieval" anyway? What you say is not believable. If you cannot provide proof - it is OK - I will continue to dismiss your statements as cooked up on the spur of the moment.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 22:09

peter wrote:
shiv wrote:Imagining the history and geography of the Helmand river

Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’. Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters.

Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river.

Nonsense.

Saras means water. Could be a large sheet of water like a huge river. It can mean pond also. Saraswat means having water. Saraswati is a name

Haraxwati is in the wrong place. You need to actually read the references to coordinates of Saraswati river before bluffing.

Iranians may have had cosmic mystical river. Naturally. Not Hindus. Can't blame the Iranians - the river was in India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 22:45

Map of Aryavarta and Madhyasdesha
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gIqI3y ... sp=sharing

The Baudhayana Dharma Sutra defines Aryavarta as the land east of Vinasana ; west of the
Kalaka-vana, ‘ Black Forest,' or rather Kanakhala, near Hardvar; south of the Himalaya; and north
of the Pariyatra11 or the Paripatra Mountains.


1. Madhya-desa, the ‘Middle Country,' is, according to the Manava Dharma Sastra, the land
between the Himalaya in the north, the Vindhya in the south, Vinasana in the west, and Prayaga
(now Allahabad) in the east that is, between the place where the Sarasvati disappears in the
desert, and the point of the confluence of the Yamuna (Jumna) and the Ganga (Ganges)


Hari Rud river can be seen faraway to the left and top corner. Haraxwati is nonsense. If you are going to quote Mahabharata - quote Indian texts not Witzel and his acolytes. Please feel free to download and share the map

Also on Twitter
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/939908429522468864

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 10 Dec 2017 23:18

^^^ On a little examination, we are told that
1. The ancient Iranian name for the area that the Greeks called Arachosia was Harahvaiti
2. In Old Persian inscriptions, the region is referred to as (cuneiform elided), written h(a)-r(a)-u-v(a)-t-i.
3. The ancient Iranians "evidently" named the river, now known as Arghandab, the Harahvaiti.
4. The Greeks named the province Arachosia after the river that flows through it, Arachōtós - today the Arghandeb

So, how around 300 BC did the Greeks get the name Arachōtós? How well do the old Persian inscriptions identify the region? How much is known for sure and how much is surmise that Harahvaiti was the name of the river also?

PS: the weight of long citations is that the river was called Harahvaiti. But my desultory search doesn't get me a crisp pointer to some definite text, e.g., as is available for references to the Saraswati (e.g., Rig Veda, 10.75), that not only mentions the name "Harahvaiti" but that it was a river.

PPS: Wiki tells us that Avestan has "Haraxvatī" perhaps referring to the Zoroastrian deity of the waters, Aredvi Sura Anahita; but "the Avestan xv generally cognates with Sanskrit "ksha". The usual cognate to "sva/sa" syllable of Sanskrit is "ngha/ŋh" syllable of Avestan, as generally found in cognate-pairs like Vivasvan-Vivanghat and Rasa-Rangha."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River

So really, with s -> h and sva -> ngha, the Iranians should have been calling their cognate river Haranghati.
Does anybody here have a clear set of citations with the clear chain of evidence that the Afghanistan river Arghandeb was at one time named after an Avestan cognate of Saraswati? Or is even that bullshit, a surmise turned into a "truth" by the weight of innumerable but untraceable citations?

PPPS: In fact, Haranghati to Arghandeb seems more plausible than Harahvaiti to Arghandeb. But what about the Old Persian inscriptions then???


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