Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4418
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 13 Sep 2017 19:10

Question for the Mahabharta Gurus., is this truth?

http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/first-e ... arat-verse

Image
We know how after Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle gave requisite proof that the Earth is actually round, the world believed their claim. But, then who guessed the exact design of this world?

“Who created the first map of Earth?” This question alone has led to numerous arguments till date. While some credit it to the Greeks; a few others argue that only after the first space rendition, the picture became clearer.

Some researchers argue that Anaximander, in 6th century BC drew the first ever world map assuming that the world was spherical, but the real question is- how did he reach this precise conclusion?

You would be surprised to know that even before the world realized that Earth actually had a design, this Sanskrit epic had precisely described how the world actually looks like. Don’t believe us, then go and read Mahabharata and you’ll surely find all the answers.

The first ever world map was sketched thousands of years ago by Indian saint Ramanujacharya, who simply translated the following verse from Mahabharat and gave the world its real face.

In Mahabharat, it is described how Maharishi Ved Vyasa gave away his divine vision to Sanjay, Dhritarashtra's charioteer so that he could describe him the events of the upcoming war.

But, even before questions of war could begin, Dhritarashtra asked him to describe how the world looks like from space.

This is how he described the face of the world:

यथा हि पुरुषः पश्येदादर्- शे मुखमात्मनः- ।

एवं सुदर्शनद्व- ीपो दृश्यते चन्द्रमण्ड- ले॥

द्विरंश- े पिप्पलस्तत- ्र द्विरंशे च शशो महान्।।-

(भी- ्म पर्व, महाभारत)

Meaning:-

अर्थ- जैसे पुरुष दर्पण में अपना मुख देखता है, उसी प्रकार यह द्वीप (पृथ्वी) चन्द्रमण्ड- ल में दिखाई देता है। इसके दो अंशों में पिप्पल (पीपल के पत्ते) और दो अंशों में महान शश (खरगोश) दिखाई देता है।

Just like a man sees his face in the mirror, so does the Earth appears in the Universe. In the first phase, you see Peepal leaves and the next phase you see a rabbit.

Based on this shloka, Saint Ramanujacharya sketched out the map, but the world laughed it off on seeing some leaves and a rabbit. Much later, when the picture was switched upside down, the reality struck in.

Don’t believe us, try turning the above picture upside down and you’ll know what I am talking about.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2017 19:43

A_Gupta wrote:
I think one of the key points is that if something wasn't written down, or if the writing wasn't preserved or a reference to the writing wasn't preserved, history cannot take cognizance of it. That would not render the existence of that false.

This is true and is probably the origin of the article of faith "It is written.."

But even stuff that was written has been destroyed depending on the whims and fancies of the later philosophers. In Plato's Republic he envisions a state in which writers should not be allowed to write about "fantastic, incredible" feats and voyages that came down in Greek literature - but should be restricted to what is believed to be humanly possible. This sounds like the sort of logic used in destruction of works like those of Ctesias - who - as I have pointed out in an earlier page - can be seen to be no less credible than Herodotus. The blind love for Herodotus as the "first historian" is as contrived and artificial as claiming that there may have been earlier prophets like Moses and Jesus but Mahomet is the latest and greatest and only his word is true.

Amazing how people can purport to practice unbiased neutrality even while openly embracing dogma. A degree of skill in rhetoric ensures that no one can come in the way of pushing crap as the only truth there is.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2017 19:53

SBajwa wrote:Question for the Mahabharta Gurus., is this truth?

http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/first-e ... arat-verse

I am no Mahabharata guru but I have mixed feelings about this

Proving or disproving this would require a lot of research into what Madhavacharya wrote and whether any drawings or renderings of drawings survive.

But on the other hand there is a biased, "evil" side of my mind that says - good. Let this story survive and be spread around. No harm in allowing such stories to float around without swearing that they are 100% true or false. Add noise and decrease the signal noise ratio and then pull out signals that have been discarded by dogma and bias.

Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4748
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yayavar » 13 Sep 2017 20:29

I would first question whether Aristotle/others were actually the first to state earth was a sphere? Is there nothing in any pre-existing literature: the vedas and vedic literature, the puranas and Mahabharata (beyond the world being reflected on moon's surface)?

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1582
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Sep 2017 21:11

shiv wrote:
In a small town in southern India in the 1500s, Jyesthadeva penned concepts important to developing a calculus system, and he did so in complete proofs that demonstrated infinite series expansions of trigonometric functions and gave precise approximations for complex calculations. “Calculus and everything derived from it depends to some extent on these concepts of infinitesimals and infinite series,” says Kim Plofker, author of Mathematics in India. By way of comparison, it wasn’t until the 1660s in Europe that a Westerner named James Gregory was able to independently do the same proof.
---
While some historians have speculated that Jesuits traveling between India and Europe brought the Yuktibhasa back to Europe and that it served to inspire European calculus, most aren’t convinced. “There is no reason to believe that our use of these ideas was directly descended from or influenced by the Kerala school,” Plofker says. Located between the Western Ghats mountain chain and the Arabian Sea, Kerala was perfectly situated to have its own culture. It wasn’t completely isolated — Kerala was a hub for pepper production and export — but the school was “quite removed from that trading nexus,” Plofker says, which suggests that ideas from the Yuktibhasa were unlikely to have spread across the ocean.




Note the two highlighted passages and the person who is quoted here. She is a student of mischievous but well regarded and decorated late professor of Exact sciences - David Pingree of Brown university (Ivy league and all that).

Notice her first quote.. it may fool ordinary reader in thinking that she is assigning credit to Indian mathematicians. She is not. BTW, I had personal interactions and I told her how mediocre works of late Professor Pingree are anything but exact and how they are full of BS and much more. She ran away..

Here are few blogs I had written in that context,

https://nileshoak.wordpress.com/2014/02 ... st-part-1/

https://nileshoak.wordpress.com/2014/02 ... st-part-2/

https://nileshoak.wordpress.com/2014/02 ... st-part-3/

https://nileshoak.wordpress.com/2014/02 ... st-part-4/

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2863
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 13 Sep 2017 22:25

Nilesh Oak wrote:
Too bad, it did not help.

Stick to what you personally follow. All the best.


Yeah, all the best to you too with dating Ramayana to 12,000+ BC with your archeoastronomy approach.

periaswamy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 13 Sep 2017 22:29

^^^ You start off with 1 yuga is 1 million years, and when it is pointed out that length of a yuga is a not a fixed one, your response is to pretend Wikipedia is the best because it gives you your favorite answer. Your only reason for insisting on the X million year value, or indeed a single value for a yuga -- a term that seems generic enough as to be rendered mostly meaningless --- is so that you don't have to make a reasonable argument for your point of view, if indeed a yuga was not X million years. Intellectual dishonesty at its finest. And there you were a few days ago waxing about "satyameva jayate". :lol: This is like someone asking for the exact temperature of a hot kettle and refusing any answer that is not 100 degress celsius
Last edited by periaswamy on 14 Sep 2017 00:00, edited 2 times in total.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2863
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 13 Sep 2017 22:38

shiv wrote:What has all this got to do with yugas?

I suspect the translation of yuga as calendar years may be wrong. Of course this whole yuga business could be complete rubbish like cowdung on umbilical cord. Or it could be like handwashing. True but not understood or explained.



A yuga as a measure of length of time is simply certain number of number of days, with day as an unit. Hard to dismiss it unless the very definition of day itself is wrong.

Hindu Units Of Time

periaswamy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 13 Sep 2017 22:41

Furthermore, if a yuga is not an exact measure of time, as indicated by the quotes in the texts in Mr. Oak's post, it cannot be used to date any event, as should be clear. So anyone insisting on using a yuga as a measure of time is off in the weeds.
Last edited by periaswamy on 14 Sep 2017 00:00, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2017 23:09

Dipanker wrote:
shiv wrote:What has all this got to do with yugas?

I suspect the translation of yuga as calendar years may be wrong. Of course this whole yuga business could be complete rubbish like cowdung on umbilical cord. Or it could be like handwashing. True but not understood or explained.



A yuga as a measure of length of time is simply certain number of number of days, with day as an unit. Hard to dismiss it unless the very definition of day itself is wrong.

Hindu Units Of Time

Fair enough. But I am sceptical enough to want to look at it in more detail and I am always wary of people such as yourself who dogmatically and emphatically insist that I must agree and think like you. I am just not built that way. I do not trust any source you quote, and I suspect that all sources may be untrustworthy. But these are the attitudes that make me me and not you

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1293
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 13 Sep 2017 23:59

SriJoy wrote:this thread and my posts in this thread are a direct refutation to your charge of 'blind dogmatic belief in history'. I've already said many times history is like onion shopping- trick is knowing what is reliable and what isn't. Which comes from learning about primary and secondary sources of a given instance in history.
But i don't expect someone, who's self-admitted view of history is for the sole purpose of aggrandizing his ancestors- to understand these concepts.


More like history is "Opinion Shaping" :mrgreen:
Jokes aside... and congrats on a straw man and an ad homenim attack all in one poorly constructed neatly underlined sentence... :P

What according to you is the purpose of History? Just Onion Shopping? :rotfl:

periaswamy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 14 Sep 2017 00:09

It is weird that those who insist that ancient Indians were barbarians are the same people who insist that the ancient definition of a day is exactly the same as a modern 24 hour day, measured in seconds that are measured by the speed of light travelling a specific distance. So the concept of yuga developed by barbarians somehow uses the ultra-modern definition of a 24-hour day.

It is more likely that the concept of a day or a measure of time was quite a bit different from terms we are familiar with today, and we cannot tell without examining all the evidence available, however little there is.

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1293
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Sep 2017 00:20

Dipanker wrote:I am afraid, this does not help. I was looking for a more concrete answers than this! Of the multiple definition of yugas describing length of time I would like to know at least a few which are considered acceptable.

Personally I follow the one given in Wikipedia, and using this gives roughly 1+ million years ago when Rama lived on this planet (Treta Yuga).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_units_of_time

If you call this random then please let me know which definition of yuga as length of time you are following and how long are different yugas as per your definition.


/Sarc ON
Since then Hindus never had one kingdom, god(s), book(s), concrete thought(s), whatever, how come a singular definition is demanded for Yuga?

Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra among others celebrate Yugadi (Ugadi, Gudi Padwa, etc) so is Yuga one year then? Or is it multiple variable years?
/Sarc Never OFF

A bit off topic, but it is really relevant...

History of Magic in NA - JK Rawlings Native American Stereotypes
The failure of History is in its lack of understanding of the human mind and especially the misused of it in the collective. When it is Abhrahamic it is considered belief, but when it is Native American it become myth even magic. Hindu, yes it must be MYTHs! This chronological processing of humans who are living cultures will need to be resisted. Indian civilization is no different, it is being put through the same digestion machine that so many sepoys seem eager in their blind ignorance not to understand or recognize.

Their scrappy tools you picked up on barren shores you want to apply to the rich fertile jungles you come from and hope and pray to find what happened in a chronological bludgeoning of anything useful that can ever be learnt, hell bent on removing the last light that still seems to shine through what you have declared essentially as a carcass of history...

There in lies deep disappointment at where we have come!

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1601
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 14 Sep 2017 06:56

SriJoy wrote:
sudarshan wrote:
BTW, who is this mythical "us" and "we" you keep talking about? Can't you speak for yourself? You are not some spokesman for some army of silent spectators. If they have any problems or issues, let them bring them up on their own.

It's bad form to pretend to speak for others, especially in a public forum.

The only people I see having any issues are you and Dipanker. Nothing wrong with having your issues of course. But at some point, some cost-benefit has to kick in, regarding the utility of convincing two lone people who either have no intention of abandoning pre-set assumptions, or who have active agendas.


the active agendas are far easier to prove for the opposition camp- since its easy to prove agendas from a religious group arguing in favour of their religious book. As for one or two, the opposition has 4-5 people in them. I can make the same assessment- since these people are saying crazy nonsense nobody takes seriously, it doesn't matter what they say.


Looks like you left your counting skills in that wilderness (your own word) where you studied history. I can count at least 10 people on this thread, more like 15, who disagree with you. Or actually - everybody who has posted on this thread since you showed up, save you and Dipanker, is in disagreement with you. And now Dipanker has left the rest of us paltry "12000+ BC" losers far behind with his "1+million BC" date for the Ramayana :mrgreen:. So if you know anything about statistical sampling, you'd get the message.

BUT that is not the point, and this forum or thread is admittedly not a popularity contest or political election....

My real point is, that none of the other posters on this thread aggrandize and pluralize themselves as "we" and "us" the way you do. They each speak for themselves, without presuming this "popular support." Like I said, it is bad form on a public forum to talk as if you are some kind of popular spokesman, and reflects either a big ego, or a lack of maturity, or both.

And like you said, "it doesn't matter what they say," only you keep coming back as if it does matter to you - a lot.

Edit: Just saw KaranM's post. My last on this.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 08:04

shiv wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
A yuga as a measure of length of time is simply certain number of number of days, with day as an unit. Hard to dismiss it unless the very definition of day itself is wrong.

Hindu Units Of Time

Fair enough. But I am sceptical enough to want to look at it in more detail and I am always wary of people such as yourself who dogmatically and emphatically insist that I must agree and think like you. I am just not built that way. I do not trust any source you quote, and I suspect that all sources may be untrustworthy. But these are the attitudes that make me me and not you


I guess it must be equally hard to dismiss this. I am hoping that I hear no more chicanery relating to the following facts
http://baharna.com/karma/yuga.htm

If you (Dipanker) take all this literally I hope that your conservative mind retains enough liberalism to allow others to believe all this too. I will, as I always do, be bringing this up to confront you in due course, now that you have declared what you believe to be true, as part of a healthy discussion I hope to have.

The smallest cycle is called a maha yuga. A maha yuga is 4,320,000 human years. Each maha yuga is subdivided into the following four ages, whose lengths follow a ratio of 4:3:2:1:

Satya Yuga (also called Krita Yuga)
This first age is 1,728,000 human years. Also known as the Golden Age or age of Truth. The qualities of this age are: virtue reigns supreme; human stature is 21 cubits; lifespan is a lakh of years, and death occurs only when willed.

Treta Yuga
This second age is 1,296,000 human years. Also known as the Silver Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is three quarters virtue and one quarter sin; human stature is 14 cubits; lifespan is 10,000 years.

Dvapara Yuga
This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.

Kali Yuga
The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; human stature is 3.5 cubits; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.


For people other than Dipanker, who may find it hard to believe the above facts I would like request a degree of critical analysis - in the sense that when a writer refers to say Dvapara yuga - and you accept the date, please also accept literally the human lifespan of 1000 years. If that is hard to accept, there are, IMO two routes available
1. Dismiss and laugh.
2. Try and look for information as to what the people who said these things might have meant, given that humans are not generally accepted to have had a lifespan of over 70-80 years

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1601
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 14 Sep 2017 08:35

shiv wrote:If you (Dipanker) take all this literally I hope that your conservative mind retains enough liberalism to allow others to believe all this too. I will, as I always do, be bringing this up to confront you in due course, now that you have declared what you believe to be true, as part of a healthy discussion I hope to have.
Dvapara Yuga
This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.

Kali Yuga
The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; human stature is 3.5 cubits; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.




How did you miss the obvious? The people who described the yugas also knew that there was something called a "Bronze Age" and "Iron Age," and they even specify their exact duration!! Do modern scientists know the exact duration of the bronze age, I ask? Do modern scientists know exactly how long the current iron age is going to last, I ask?

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1601
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 14 Sep 2017 08:46

SBajwa wrote:Question for the Mahabharta Gurus., is this truth?

http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/first-e ... arat-verse

Image


Bajwa ji, that would indeed be impressive if true. I'm no MB guru, but in order to credit the above, I'd really like to know the exact chapter and verse. Chapter might be inferred - the one where Sanjaya starts to narrate to Dhritarashtra, I guess? Would that be Bhishma Parva? And this would also be presumably pre-Bhagavad-Gita.

But there's more I'd like to know. Do we have the exact drawing that Ramanujacharya made (and do we know for a fact that he really made it)? That would be much better corroboration. Else, why would somebody draw those pipal leaves in just that particular way, based on the verse(s) alone? The verse(s) don't supply that much information, do they?

I interpreted "phase" in the verses to mean - phases of the earth, like phases of the moon. So as the earth were rotating, first an observer would see the pipal leaves, and then the rabbit. Only, that Australia leaf spoils that somewhat (though not entirely). Also, it would be extremely interesting if the above were true (and that's a big if for me personally, right now), because it depicts the south pole on top and the north pole on the bottom (which is a very valid viewpoint). But that makes me wonder how the epic would interpret "uttarayana" and "dakshinayana" - would it still be the way we imagine today? I don't know if the MB makes an explicit statement as to the location of the Himalayas WRT jambudvipa.

In short, I'm pretty skeptical about the above (though the verse may well be true, especially if somebody could point out its exact location in the MB), until I can see that Ramanujacharya really did make a drawing like that one. Not saying it can't be true, but as presented, it seems a bit lacking in truthiness.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 08:55

sudarshan wrote:How did you miss the obvious? The people who described the yugas also knew that there was something called a "Bronze Age" and "Iron Age," and they even specify their exact duration!! Do modern scientists know the exact duration of the bronze age, I ask? Do modern scientists know exactly how long the current iron age is going to last, I ask?

It's a bit like tech jargon to exclude you. The medical fraternity talks of strategies to deal with "neoplasia"

An equivalent source of irritation for me is the use of western yugas. The current yuga is 'holocene"- which started about 12 to 10,000 years ago. So you ask, what was the earlier yuga? Well, simple, I tell you, the earlier "scientific, western yuga" was Pleistocene. How long was the Pleistocene?

Here's Wiki for you
The Pleistocene often colloquially referred to as the Ice Age) is the geological epoch which lasted from about 2,588,000 to 11,700 years ago, spanning the world's most recent period of repeated glaciations


What sort of classification is that? India was not iced up even the earlier yuga. That earlier pleistocene matters only to Wesht that was iced up because "icing up" is the key to define an age and balls to human history that could not have involved anything other than half-apes before holocene.

The assumptions made by science are sometimes as incredible as human lifespans of 1000 years. Only thing is that we have all been taught to believe only one book and be critical of blasphemers who disbelieve your book

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1293
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Sep 2017 09:22

^^^ This is a miss for any 'closed mind' ~ I like ur term - Western Yugas :mrgreen:
The neophyte in their new found dogma actually do disservice to their new found religion.
Most 'Universalisms' of the West tends to generalize too quickly and localize too slowly... in some sense the philia towards India seeks balance

That is let us assume that Science is what you converted to, in treating its best hypotheses as dogma, one does disservice to this new found faith!
These neophytes are more dangerous to Science than even non-believers! :evil:

If you understand what I say, perhaps there is an opportunity to learn together....
We are moving from an age of record keeping... history as ledgers... to prove the purpose of Christ...
To an age of engagement... thus was the experience of the Cambodian people... "First They Killed My Father" the new movie...
To an age of eventual consistency... that there are multiple versions to the same facts...
a catallaxy where ideas could be traded and learnt from... one comes here to understand why there are millions of Gods for Hindus for ex.

Till then, truly Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka nah ghat ka! :rotfl:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 09:35

Pulikeshi wrote:^
That is let us assume that Science is what you converted to, in treating its best hypotheses as dogma, one does disservice to this new found faith!

Absolutely. Science is a quest. Not a book. Once science becomes a book in which "It is written..", it becomes the same as religious dogma. Amazing that people who wear the science logo on their foreheads don't even begin to understand this.

If you read Greek philosophy - which is essentially about what different philosophers said and thought, you find that these people were in a quest and often disputed each other. But at one stage Greek philosophy was frozen into dogma. I suspect that the Church probably had a role there - but I am not sure. Discarding of some philosophers as minor or irrelevant and raising others to demi-god status was akin to making "Allah is the only god. Other gods are false"

An attempt has been made on this thread to equate history and the work of historians as "science" and then freeze that work as "the last word" that brooks no revision, This is utter nonsense and deep ignorance. What a lovely word "moorkhta" is .. मूर्खता

ಪೆಡ್ದ್ ಮುಂಡೇವು

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2863
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 14 Sep 2017 09:54

shiv wrote:http://baharna.com/karma/yuga.htm

If you (Dipanker) take all this literally I hope that your conservative mind retains enough liberalism to allow others to believe all this too. I will, as I always do, be bringing this up to confront you in due course, now that you have declared what you believe to be true, as part of a healthy discussion I hope to have.
.
.
.


Thanks for posting but I knew that already. As a hindu I can't reject definition of yugas and accept Brahma as the creator of this universe at the same time. If I did that will be picking and choosing.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2863
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 14 Sep 2017 10:00

shiv wrote:What sort of classification is that? India was not iced up even the earlier yuga. That earlier pleistocene matters only to Wesht that was iced up because "icing up" is the key to define an age and balls to human history that could not have involved anything other than half-apes before holocene.

The assumptions made by science are sometimes as incredible as human lifespans of 1000 years. Only thing is that we have all been taught to believe only one book and be critical of blasphemers who disbelieve your book


It is standard geological time scale. Most recent period is known as Recent or Holocene.

Here it is from oldest to recent.

Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Paleocene, Eocene, Oligocene, Miocene, Pliocene, Pleistocene, and Recent/Holocene.


For e.g. rocks older than Cambrian in age are known as Pre-Cambrian. The period after Cretaceous is also known as Tertiary. The dinosaurs lived in the Jurassic period, hence the Jurassic Park movie.
Last edited by Dipanker on 14 Sep 2017 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 10:06

Dipanker wrote:
It is standard geological time scale. Most recent period is known as Recent or Holocene.

Here it is from oldest to recent.

Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Paleocene, Eocene, Oligocene, Miocene, Pliocene, Pleistocene, and Recent/Holocene.


For e.g. rocks older than Cambrian in age are known as Pre-Cambrian.


I think this is a completely obscure and totally useless classification. Will explain if you are interested.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2863
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 14 Sep 2017 10:08

shiv wrote:I think this is a completely obscure and totally useless classification. Will explain if you are interested.


I studied whole bunch of geology as part of my academic curriculum.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 10:10

Dipanker wrote:Thanks for posting but I knew that already. As a hindu I can't reject definition of yugas and accept Brahma as the creator of this universe at the same time. If I did that will be picking and choosing.

It is your prerogative to believe what you want and hold whatever view you want. I hope that leeway is allowed for others as well

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 10:14

Dipanker wrote:
shiv wrote:I think this is a completely obscure and totally useless classification. Will explain if you are interested.


I studied whole bunch of geology as part of my academic curriculum.

Your education and degrees make no difference to the fact that these yugas are a useless classification for most forms of exchange of human knowledge and information. Particularly, in terms of history and the human past these yugas are totally useless and should, in my view be rejected as obscure geological jargon that means very little to anyone other than geologists. If they have relevance to you - more power to you. For me and the time scales I am talking about they are completely worthless.

In terms of adding to my own personal knowledge these western science yugas are no more useful than Hindu yugas. Some people find one useful, others may find another useful. Perhaps you find both useful and relevant

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1582
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 14 Sep 2017 17:37

shiv wrote:In terms of adding to my own personal knowledge these western science yugas are no more useful than Hindu yugas. Some people find one useful, others may find another useful. Perhaps you find both useful and relevant

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1582
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 14 Sep 2017 18:21

Shiv ji

Quick question.....

The reason for upper constraint of ~2000 BCE on AIT, is because otherwise Mittani evidence comes in conflict with Rigveda being earlier to Mittani (and thus destructive for AIT and egos of AIT bozos), correct?

And why is the lower constraint of 1500 BCE on AIT? What are the issues AIT runs into if they claim 'Aryan riding on their horses" anytime after 1500 BCE?

Appreciate your help.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 19:59

Nilesh Oak wrote:Shiv ji

Quick question.....

The reason for upper constraint of ~2000 BCE on AIT, is because otherwise Mittani evidence comes in conflict with Rigveda being earlier to Mittani (and thus destructive for AIT and egos of AIT bozos), correct?

And why is the lower constraint of 1500 BCE on AIT? What are the issues AIT runs into if they claim 'Aryan riding on their horses" anytime after 1500 BCE?

Appreciate your help.


Good question. Actually that "constraint" varies from about 1500 to 1000 BC and they are all linguistic constraints because they have so called "attested" evidence of other "Indo-European" languages that start appearing which have been dated after 1000 BC. There are actually many holes in this theory but no one (other than Indians) is bothered.

For example - they know that the Chhand Upastha ("Zend Avesta") mentions the Vedas but Vedas don't mention the latter. Many "weshtern" authors point out the similarities between Atharva Veda and The Zoroastrian book. So the Zoroastrian language is placed as a sister language to "Vedic Sanskrit". Since they have already dated Atharva Veda to beginning of iron age by virtue of mention of black metal, and they place iron age (probably wrongly) in India as 1000 BC - they give a date of about 1000 BC to Atharva Veda and Chhand Upastha/Zend Avesta. Our cunning linguists have "allowed" 500 years for the earlier Rig Veda - placing Rig Veda around 1500 BC

After 1000 BC all sorts of other dates crop up. "Old Persian" is posited to be a daughter language of Zoroastrian - in fact Darius was a Zoroastrian and his Old Persian Behistun inscription in Iran is about 500 BC. between 1000 BC and 500 BC they have placed all sorts of other things including the Buddha. After 500 BC they have Alexander and Chandragupta who is claimed to be Sandrocottus.

I can dispute dates for Panini using various "weshtern" sources - placing him a few centuries earlier. The "Avestan language" is a completely cooked up language - wholly and completely cooked up by cunning linguists from a 12th century Sanskrit rendition of a so called "middle Persian" text by one Neryosang Dhaval.

What is absolutely astounding about these mofos - yes I use a term of contempt - mofos - is that they are perfectly willing to use "linguistc evidence" from Sanskrit texts if its suits their dates. For example "black metal" reference to them is absolute truth. Flat nosed "dasyus" (Dravidians) is absolute truth. "Purs" representing forts of defeated races is truth. IIn fact all these translated words are rubbish. But when the same linguistic evidence from the same texts points to earlier dates like Saraswati river and astronomy dates - they reject all that.

Archaeological evidence is good for them as long as horse bones are not found. When horse bones are found, they are not horses, or there are not enough horse bones. But all this is going to get wiped clean because nowadays there is some real solid paleobotanical and paleo-climactic studies appearing that are giving a very good picture of the environment to correlate with available texts and archaeological evidence. Also Indian explanations of the Vedas showing how people like Muller (who used Sayana) and indeed Sayana himself were going off track in their interpretations of the Vedas contradicting Yaska and earlier commentators on the Veda. Horse sacrifice and horse burials have been conjured up from the Vedas where nothing of the sort is there. A great deal of gaandmasti has gone on..

The Mitanni evidence is actually problematic in many ways because the Sanskrit has a clear link with the Vedas - but it they say that the language was in Syria before reaching India - the route of spread from "Steppe" gets screwed up. Also along with Mitanni are the Sanskrit "Horse training texts of Kikkuli". Current theories claim that people on horses and chariots rode out around 2500 BC - and went in various directions - and towards India they split up into Iranian branch and Indian branch. Iranian became Zoroastrian and Indian branch Sanskrit - both around 1500 BC. But Mitanni is a sort of kabab mein haddi with no clear explanation. It is simply fudged. The only clear explanation is that Vedas already existed by 1800 BC in India and the language was taken to Syria by Indian origin kings. This is a problematic explanation for linguists
Last edited by shiv on 14 Sep 2017 20:33, edited 2 times in total.

periaswamy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby periaswamy » 14 Sep 2017 20:24

Shivji, Particularly, in terms of history and the human past these yugas are totally useless and should, in my view be rejected as obscure geological jargon that means very little to anyone other than geologists.


Shivji, This becomes obvious once we consider that the age of the earth is about 4 billion years, neanderthals showed up 200,000 years ago (going by beshtern schience), and human society sprang up after that, and any geological era before the neanderthals is entirely useless when discussing matters related to the human race, since exactly one XYZ geological era covers the entire human history, making all geological eras entirely irrelevant...whether the current geological era is called caenozoic era or nallapayyan era, it would have no bearing on the analysis of matters contained entirely within that era.

(JEMenon saar, corrected. sorry about that...trying to break the habit.)
Last edited by periaswamy on 14 Sep 2017 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 14 Sep 2017 20:31

Periavare, while I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts please go easy on the rough language - even the Tamil words. Brought a smile to my face, been a long while since I heard that one!!!

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2017 20:55

periaswamy wrote:
Shivji, This becomes obvious once we consider that the age of the earth is about 4 billion years, neanderthals showed up 200,000 years ago (going by beshtern schience), and human society sprang up after that, and any geological era before the neanderthals is entirely useless when discussing matters related to the human race, since exactly one XYZ geological era covers the entire human history, making all geological eras entirely irrelevant...whether the current geological era is called caenozoic era or nallapayyan era, it would have no bearing on the analysis of matters contained entirely within that era.

(JEMenon saar, corrected. sorry about that...trying to break the habit.)


:rotfl:

The chicanery of some of these "scholars" only provokes contempt in me. There are 30,000 year old caves with Neanderthal paintings. Now you can ask yourself (and not get an answer) if a group of beings who had human-style paintings did not have language. There is no evidence either way whether they had spoken language or not. No one in the world refers to any "Neanderthal language". No one is interested although anyone with half a brain should be interested.

On the other hand - these buggers find graves with chariots and horses in the steppe region from 2500 BC. Again there is no evidence of language whatsoever - but guess what? This time it is convenient for them to claim that these horse-burying guys had a language and that was mother language to Sanskrit before they came riding down to India. And because we have faithful Indian sepoys guarding this kind of crap as gospel truth that must never be revised by revisionists we are supposed to sit with one thumb in mouth and other in musharraf - blocking up all orifices.

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1582
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 15 Sep 2017 00:56

^^^ thank you Shiv ji.

I had it in my head and when I sat down to write, I could not think of the reasons for AIT walla's constraints on the lower limit.

BTW, you and me will be sharing dias, Ganesha willing, soon on AIT.
--
In other news, am almost there (90%) with my 100% online course on 'Archaeoastronomy'. Still admin details to be worked out. Goal is to provide solid foundation for dharmic (indic) individuals in logic of scientific discovery/scientific methods with emphasis (for now) on archaeoastronomy. Plans are also in works to have it accredited in the university system (USA system to begin with) so that many undergraduates who are otherwise keen on learning about Indian civilization, culture, science, history and technology can take the course and also have credit towards their degree of choice..

In due process (not by design or intention..but rather a natural byproduct of this training/demonstration) many great impostors (in and out of India) will be revealed.

Thanks again.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8340
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Sep 2017 01:04

shiv wrote:The smallest cycle is called a maha yuga. A maha yuga is 4,320,000 human years. Each maha yuga is subdivided into the following four ages, whose lengths follow a ratio of 4:3:2:1:
Satya Yuga (also called Krita Yuga)
This first age is 1,728,000 human years. Also known as the Golden Age or age of Truth. The qualities of this age are: virtue reigns supreme; human stature is 21 cubits; lifespan is a lakh of years, and death occurs only when willed.
Treta Yuga
This second age is 1,296,000 human years. Also known as the Silver Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is three quarters virtue and one quarter sin; human stature is 14 cubits; lifespan is 10,000 years.

Dvapara Yuga
This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.
Kali Yuga
The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; human stature is 3.5 cubits; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.

The years sure are getting longer!

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 06:39

Here are Hindu Yugas from Manusmriti. I see no mention of "cubits"
one age of the gods. 72. But know that the sum of
one thousand ages of the gods (makes) one day of Brah-
man, and that his night has the same length. 73. Those
(only, who) know that the holy day of Brahman, indeed,
ends after (the completion of) one thousand ages (of the
gods) and that his night lasts as long, (are really) men
acquainted with (the length of) days and nights. 74. At
the end of that day and night he who was asleep, awakes
and, after awaking, creates mind, which is both real and
unreal. 75. Mind, impelled by (Brahman's) desire to
create, performs the work of creation by modifying it-
self, thence ether is produced; they declare that sound is
the quality of the latter. 76. But from ether, modifying
itself, springs the pure, powerful wind, the vehicle of all
perfumes; that is held to possess the quality of touch.
77. Next from wind modifying itself, proceeds the bril-
liant light, which illuminates and dispels darkness; that
is declared to possess the quality of colour; 78. And
from light, modifying itself, (is produced) water, pos-
sessing the quality of taste, from water earth which has
the quality of smell; such is the creation in the beginning.
79. The before-mentioned age of the gods, (or) twelve
thousand (of their years), being multiplied by seventy-
one, (constitutes what) is here named the period of a
Manu (Manvantara). 80. The Manvantaras, the cre-
ations and destructions (of the world, are) numberless;
sporting, as it were, Brahman repeats this again and
again. 81. In the Krita age Dharma is four-footed and
entire, and (so is) Truth; nor does any gain accrue to
men by unrighteousness. 82. In the other (three ages),
by reason of (unjust) gains (agama), Dharma is deprived
successively of one foot, and through (the prevalence of)
theft, falsehood, and fraud the merit (gained by men) is
diminished by one fourth (in each). 83. (Men are) free
from disease, accomplish all their aims, and live four
hundred years in the Krita age, but in the Treta and (in
each of) the succeeding (ages) their life is lessened by
one quarter. 84. The life of mortals, mentioned in the
Veda, the desired results of sacri cial rites and the (su-
pernatural) power of embodied (spirits) are fruits pro-
portioned among men according to (the character of)
the age. 85. One set of duties (is prescribed) for men
in the Krita age, di erent ones in the Treta and in the
Dvapara, and (again) another (set) in the Kali, in a pro-
portion as (those) ages decrease in length. 86. In the
Krita age the chief (virtue) is declared to be (the perfor-
mance of) austerities, in the Treta (divine) knowledge,
in the Dvapara (the performance of) sacri ces, in the
Kali liberality alone.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 06:56

From an online edition of the "Bhagvata Purana" (Srimad Bhagvatam). WTF is "demi god"
catvāri trīṇi dve caikaṁ
 kṛtādiṣu yathā-kramam
saṅkhyātāni sahasrāṇi
 dvi-guṇāni śatāni ca

Translation:
The duration of the Satya millennium equals 4,800 years of the years of the demigods; the duration of the Tretā millennium equals 3,600 years of the demigods; the duration of the Dvāpara millennium equals 2,400 years; and that of the Kali millennium is 1,200 years of the demigods.
Purport:

As aforementioned, one year of the demigods is equal to 360 years of the human beings. The duration of the Satya-yuga is therefore 4,800 × 360, or 1,728,000 years. The duration of the Tretā-yuga is 3,600 × 360, or 1,296,000 years. The duration of the Dvāpara-yuga is 2,400 × 360, or 864,000 years. And the last, the Kali-yuga, is 1,200 × 360, or 432,000 years.



Satya Yuga: http://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/3/11/21
Translation:
O Vidura, in the Satya millennium mankind properly and completely maintained the principles of religion, but in other millenniums religion gradually decreased by one part as irreligion was proportionately admitted.
Purport:

In the Satya millennium, complete execution of religious principles prevailed. Gradually, the principles of religion decreased by one part in each of the subsequent millenniums. In other words, at present there is one part religion and three parts irreligion. Therefore people in this age are not very happy.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 06:58

NOTE: This bloody site has some passages mixed up with the Devnagri part having no connection with the English transcription

Another source - but I have a problem with words used like "Religion and "demi-god" These are English words with no clear Sanskrit parallel
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/3/11/
Text 18:
Maitreya said: O Vidura, the four millenniums are called the Satya-, Tretā-, Dvāpara- and Kali-yuga. The aggregate number of years of all of these combined is equal to twelve thousand years of the demigods.

Text 19:
The duration of the Satya millennium equals 4,800 years of the years of the demigods; the duration of the Tretā millennium equals 3,600 years of the demigods; the duration of the Dvāpara millennium equals 2,400 years; and that of the Kali millennium is 1,200 years of the demigods.

Text 20:
The transitional periods before and after every millennium, which are a few hundred years as aforementioned, are known as yuga-sandhyās, or the conjunctions of two millenniums, according to the expert astronomers. In those periods all kinds of religious activities are performed.

Text 21:
O Vidura, in the Satya millennium mankind properly and completely maintained the principles of religion, but in other millenniums religion gradually decreased by one part as irreligion was proportionately admitted.

Text 22:
Outside of the three planetary systems [Svarga, Martya and Pātāla], the four yugas multiplied by one thousand comprise one day on the planet of Brahmā. A similar period comprises a night of Brahmā, in which the creator of the universe goes to sleep.

Text 23:
After the end of Brahmā’s night, the creation of the three worlds begins again in the daytime of Brahmā, and they continue to exist through the life durations of fourteen consecutive Manus, or fathers of mankind.



OK here "dharma" is translated as religion. I am in vehement disagreement with that
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/3/11/21/

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2017 09:58

Specially for Nilesh Oak:

Here is how history has been constructed for us.

Excerpt from David Anthony, "Horse, Wheel and Language"
SINTASHTA AND THE ORIGINS OF THE ARYANS
The oldest texts in Old Indic are the "family books," books 2 through 7, of
the Rig Veda (RV). These hymns and prayers were compiled into "books"
or mandalas about 1500-1300 BCE, but many had been composed earlier.
The oldest parts of the Avesta (AV), the Gathas, the oldest texts in Ira-
nian, were composed by Zarathustra probably about 1200-1000 BCE.
The undocumented language that was the parent of both, common Indo-
Iranian, must be dated well before 1500 BCE, because, by this date, Old
Indic had already appeared in the documents of the Mitanni in North
Syria (see chapter 3). Common Indo-Iranian probably was spoken during
the Sintashta period, 2100-1800 BCE. Archaic Old Indic probably
emerged as a separate tongue from archaic Iranian about 1800-1600 BCE
(see chapter 16). The RV and AV agreed that the essence of their shared
parental Indo-Iranian identity was linguistic and ritual, not racia!' If a
person sacrificed to the right gods in the right way using the correct forms
of the traditional hymns and poems, that person was an Aryan 4S Other-
wise the individual was a Dasyu, again not a racial or ethnic label but a
ritual and linguistic one-a person who interrupted the cycle of giving
between gods and humans, and therefore a person who threatened cosmic
order, r'ta (RV) or afa (AV). Rituals performed in the right words were the
core of being an Aryan.


The Mitanni texts are pure Sanskrit. The Link With the Rig Veda is clear because in the Mitanni documents the following line appears:

"Mitra-Varuna-Indra-Nasatya". The names "Mitra, Varuna, Indra and the "Nasatyas" who are twin Asvins appear only in the Rig Veda in that order. Considering the nasatyas as twins is also in the Rig Veda. Rig Veda is inextricably linked with India. So how did a line that appears only in the Rig Veda appear in Syria?

To expand on this further we need to look at all the names of Gods mentioned in the Mitanni treaty. It was not about just these 5 Vedic deities but dozens of Syrian gods
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroas ... treaty.htm
the Storm-god,
Lord of Heaven and Earth,
the Moon-god and the Sun-god,
the Moon-god of Harran, heaven and earth,
the Storm-god,
Lord of the kurinnu of Kahat,
the Deity of Herds of Kurta,
the Storm-god,
Lord of Uhušuman,
Ea-šarri,
Lord of Wisdom,
Anu,
Antu,
Enlil,
Ninlil,
the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods,
Lord of Waššukanni,
the Storm-god,
Lord of the Temple Platform (?) of Irrite,
Partahi of Šuta,
Nabarbi,
Šuruhi,
Ištar,
Evening Star,
Šala,
Belet-ekalli,
Damkina,
Išhara,
the mountains and rivers,
the deities of heaven and the deities of earth.

As you can see, the 5 Vedic deities are also rans here. None of the other gods mentioned in that list have anything to do with India. None of them finds mention anywhere in India from 5000 BC to 2000 AD

Now the cunning linguists would have us believe that out of this long list of 35-36 god-names from Syria - only 5 went to India in exactly that order and later placed themselves in the Rig Veda. The rest of them stayed in Syria.

That is not all. In the relevant Sukta of the Rig Veda are other names that do not appear in the Syrian list - such as Rudra, Vasus and Aditya. All names - Mitra, Varuna, Indra, Nasatyas (or Asvins), Rurda, Vasus and Aditya appear time and time again in the Rig veda and are part and parcel of the Rig Veda. While none of the other Syrian god names appear.

It seems more likely that the Syria list is an excerpt from a pre-existing Rig Veda list rather that just five names from the syrian list going to India to get included among dozens of other names and mentioned dozens of times.

In Griffiths translation of Rig Veda
    the name Indra occurs 1071 times
    the name Mitra occurs 304 times
    the name Varuna occurs 101 times
    the twin names "nasatyas" occurs 28 times
    the Asvins (same as nasatyas) are mentioned 109 times

With this kind of weight of evidence of where the names were known in the RiG veda we have-anthropologist historian David Anthony writing this:
The undocumented language that was the parent of both, common Indo-Iranian, must be dated well before 1500 BCE, because, by this date, Old Indic had already appeared in the documents of the Mitanni in North Syria


He is saying that the language "Old Indic" had apperared in Syria by 1800 BC. What he leaves out is that not only had Sanskrit (which he chooses to call Old Indic) "appeared " in the people already has a well developed culture where "Mitra-Varuna-Indra-Nasatya" were part of their pantheon. It was not just language - but a culture based on that language. And he claims that this language simply appeared in Syria - denying the cultural context. That means that the culture with those names must have developed before 1800 BC.

So where did this language and culture develop. According to linguist-historians the language was developing in the Sinthasta grave area of Russia - close to Kazakhstan.

What is the evidence of the culture of Mitra-varuna-Indra-nasatya in Russia/Kazakhstan? Zero
What is the evidence of the culture of Mitra-varuna-Indra-nasatya in Syria? One mention among several dozen Syrian gods
What is the evidence of the culture of Mitra-varuna-Indra-nasatya in India? Thousands of references in the Rig Veda where these names form an integral part of the text

Now someone explain this to me. How does one reach the conclusion that the culture that has "Mitra-varuna-Indra-nasatya"that was developing en route from Russia to Syria. then it just appeared as a flash in one tablet in Syria in 1800 BC and then went to India?

Excuse my anal-ogy. If you find a pile of bullshit in your garden, footprints with bullshit in your hallway and no bullshit in your kitchen how would you conclude that bullshit originated in the kitchen, left a trace in the hallway and collected up in a huge pile in your garden. The bullshit is in the historian-story-writer's head

AND WE BELIEVE THIS CRAP! Bullshit is what we are trying to clean up, fighting with sepoys along the way

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9671
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 15 Sep 2017 16:41

FYI, the Bakhshali manuscript was dated by the writing, e.g., "the manuscript is written in an earlier form of Śāradā script, which was mainly in use from the 8th to the 12th century". Now it is carbon-dated to five hundred years earlier - to the 3rd or 4th century. That means, in my opinion, the date of everything written in Śāradā needs to be reexamined.

Prem Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1983
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 Sep 2017 16:53

Yep - big news for the day! The dates just keep going back in time. The symbol for Zero in Bakshali Manuscript apparently occurs hundreds of times. Which means Zero existed in India from 3rd - 4th century CE. That's a loooooong time ago.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: agoel76, Vinod Ji and 23 guests