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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 10:34

New thread for Out of India. Link to the last page of old thread: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6381&start=8360

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 23:48

Sharing a paper here that ManasaTaramgini (Teetar handle @blog_supplement) shared, claiming that this supports AIT: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/05/21/005348.full.pdf

I pointed out to him that, far from supporting AIT, it debunks it & it in fact agrees with the Metspalu paper. In this paper:
CEU: Northern European Ancestry
GIH: North Indian Ancestry

The authors conclude: These findings suggest that the GIH ancestors remained in close contact with CEU ancestors until about 10kya

Metspalu says that North India didnt receive any gene influx for at least the last 12500 years! (similar conclusion)

P.S. Apparently @blog_supplement is a geneticist & he is convinced about AIT (mind you not AMT, but AIT - meaning large genetic influx into India)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2014 05:32

Prem Kumar wrote:Sharing a paper here that ManasaTaramgini (Teetar handle @blog_supplement) shared, claiming that this supports AIT: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/05/21/005348.full.pdf

I pointed out to him that, far from supporting AIT, it debunks it & it in fact agrees with the Metspalu paper. In this paper:
CEU: Northern European Ancestry
GIH: North Indian Ancestry

The authors conclude: These findings suggest that the GIH ancestors remained in close contact with CEU ancestors until about 10kya

Metspalu says that North India didnt receive any gene influx for at least the last 12500 years! (similar conclusion)

P.S. Apparently @blog_supplement is a geneticist & he is convinced about AIT (mind you not AMT, but AIT - meaning large genetic influx into India)

You are absolutely right - this paper also says that the connections are 10,000 years old.

The problem I think lies in the fact that the AIT has a specific timeline and geneticists are unfamiliar with that timeline. No one is saying that there was absolutely zero gene influx into India. The data suggests little gene influx in the last 10,000 years until recently (Priya Moorjani). Most geneticists do not know the AIT timelines - ie people influx in the last 3500 years. Most don't know that the Vedic civilization has plenty of roots that go back well beyond 3500 years

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Aug 2014 09:57

Shiv: the ManasaTaramgini person also seems to know a good bit of Sanskrit & the Linguistic arguments. But over the last X number of years, he seems to have convinced himself of the correctness of AIT. His position though is different from other AIT-wallahs:

a) He posits different date ranges: 3500 - 6000 Years Before Present for Aryan invasion
b) He knows fully well & seems to hate the damage caused by Western Indologists & the Dravidian politics
c) He disregards AMT & believes AIT is the right explanation

His blog is interesting to follow, though I dont agree with his conclusions whenever he writes about AIT. He also writes about a lot of other things - medieval wars etc. I'm yet to ask him if he has posted on this thread. His blog: http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Aug 2014 10:00

Shiv: I had an interesting exchange on Teetar with neha_aks, explaining AIT & genetic evidence against it. One question came up which I found interesting. Is it possible for tribes to have split off say 10K years before present (irrespective of AIT or OIT) with no subsequent interaction?

My answer was "No" because:

a) We have the Mittani evidence: Indra/Varuna etc in treaty as well as in Rig Veda. The counter to this argument is that both tribes might have memories of really old (10K year old) Gods like Mitra, Indra etc which they recalled in their respective Treaty & Rig Veda. Which leads to the 2nd point .....

b) Grammatical similarities: the invocation of Indra etc in Mittani tongue is grammatically similar to Rig Veda (& even the sequence in which Mitra, Varuna etc are recalled). Its unlikely that similar grammar would also have been maintained by 2 separated cultures over several thousand years

Are there any other reasons that make it unlikely that the PIE split happened 10K years ago? Or is it possible? Note that the answer is equally applicable whether we go with the AIT or OIT model.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 11 Aug 2014 15:04

Don't know who neha_aks is but you can counter the argument with Ice Age and Last Glacial Maximum.
When Ice Age sets in, vast areas of Europe, Eurasia & Central Asia would be inhabitable even for animals, let alone a chance for humans.
Thus the refugia like India would hold majority of bio diversity.
Only when Ice Age recedes (last happened 10k-12k YBP), is that considerable human migration would be feasible.
That migration too would most likely be from India (the refugia till now) to outside, where fresh land vacated by the receding Ice is available for enterprise.
In my opinion, any shoot offs under the various brainstorming & hypothetical theories would fit better, if it occurs within the past 10k-12k years.

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 11 Aug 2014 20:38

Prem Kumar wrote:Shiv: I had an interesting exchange on Teetar with neha_aks, explaining AIT & genetic evidence against it. One question came up which I found interesting. Is it possible for tribes to have split off say 10K years before present (irrespective of AIT or OIT) with no subsequent interaction?

My answer was "No" because:

a) We have the Mittani evidence: Indra/Varuna etc in treaty as well as in Rig Veda. The counter to this argument is that both tribes might have memories of really old (10K year old) Gods like Mitra, Indra etc which they recalled in their respective Treaty & Rig Veda. Which leads to the 2nd point .....

b) Grammatical similarities: the invocation of Indra etc in Mittani tongue is grammatically similar to Rig Veda (& even the sequence in which Mitra, Varuna etc are recalled). Its unlikely that similar grammar would also have been maintained by 2 separated cultures over several thousand years

Are there any other reasons that make it unlikely that the PIE split happened 10K years ago? Or is it possible? Note that the answer is equally applicable whether we go with the AIT or OIT model.


Prem in fact I keep having exchanges with one blogging prof who writes about the similarities of Russian/Easren European languages and Sanskrit. I asked him a question and he promised to try and get around to answering it:

I will post the exchange here because I think it is relevant to what you ask

I asked:
http://borissoff.wordpress.com/2012/11/ ... /#comments
Linguists tell us that languages change over time. That means that if a parent language gives rise to two daughter languages, those languages will drift apart over time.

If there really was a hypothetical “PIE” it is easy to postulate that Sanskrit, Greek and Latin are all “descendants” of PIE that have undergone the process of word change over time.

But if you look at the remarkable similarities between a very old language (Sanskrit) and Slavonic, it appears that they are sister languages from some common root. It appears that Sanskrit and the so called “Balto-Slavic” languages are closer to each other than Greek and Latin.

However if you look at modern “language family trees” invented by linguists, the Balto Slavic languages are a totally different branch off PIE and Sanskrit is placed on a separate branch as “Indo-Iranian”. This classification appears fake and contrived to me. It appears to have been created to explain a particular pre-conceived history of languages.

It is far more likely that the so called “Balto-Slavic” languages and “Indo-Iranian” languages came off the same branch. Also significant is that Russian and Slavonic are so similar to Sanskrit (a very old language) that this defies the commonly cited theory of inevitable language change. Clearly Russian, Slavonic and Lithuanian have not changed that much.

It should not be difficult to conjure up a hypothesis to show that the common root of Indo-Iranian and Balto Slavic was the original PIE of which Latin and Greek are offshoots. But linguists will protest and squirm at such heresies.


The reply was:
Bennedose Ji, you have raised a number of most fundamental questions. It is not easy to answer them in a blog. I’ll try to express my view on this in the next few days.


Now we have discussed on this forum a paper that showed that Sanskrit and Lithuanian have links that go back more than 5000 years because they share many words but no common word for metal - which came into human use 5000 years ago. (will provide url if you want). The conclusion is that they split apart more than 5000 years ago.

So I believe it is entirely possible that language spread between India and eastern Europe and Russia more than 5000 years ago. Did they "never meet again" ? Possible.

In fact the RiAi M17 and M 548 evidence suggests exactly that. It appears that M17 has its oldest clades (I think 10 or 12,000 years old - need to check) in Gujarat and seems to have spread from there and M 17 is fund widely over eastern Europe and Russia. But M 548 originated in Poland about 4500 years ago and did not find its way back to India. So it is definitely possible that aa set of humans could have split apart 10,000 years ago and moved north from India as per the evidence of genetics (M17 and M 548) and language.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 11 Aug 2014 22:36

Prem Kumar, MT used to be a BRF member HH long time ago. I didn't think he supported AIT. Are you sure? He is bio-genetist, Sanskrit scholar, historian.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vamsee » 11 Aug 2014 23:37

Prem Kumar,

I was about to write but ramana garu already wrote it. MT is an ex-BRFite :-)

ramana garu,
He is an hardcore RW who supports AIT but not existing timeline :-)

-Vamsee

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2014 04:12

Ramana Garu: Vamsee's description is right. MT is an AIT proponent & is quite firm in his belief. I had a long exchange with him on Twitter. Its in my TL.

But his version of AIT has earlier dates. When asked, he placed AIT between 6K YBP - 3.5K YBP. His blog has a bunch of AIT material. He sent me a summary of his AIT writings that I am including here. Its a good read: https://app.box.com/s/9t5jawga2ocoovvkhrsc

But he is a RW - he hates Hinduphobic Western Indologists. I read someplace (maybe BRF, I cant remember now) about the "Tilak model of AIT". I have a feeling that's MT's position.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2014 04:16

A new article from Anand Ranganathan in News Laundry about Genetic Evidence against AIT/AMT. Good to start seeing mainstream articles that make the point forcefully: http://www.newslaundry.com/2014/08/11/indiana-jones-and-the-troublesome-aryans/

Interesting timing

On Twitter, even amongst RW'ers, there seems to be AIT & OIT camp, alongwith the undecided (but with certain leanings) camp.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 12 Aug 2014 06:20

Prem Kumar wrote:Ramana Garu: Vamsee's description is right. MT is an AIT proponent & is quite firm in his belief. I had a long exchange with him on Twitter. Its in my TL.

But his version of AIT has earlier dates. When asked, he placed AIT between 6K YBP - 3.5K YBP.


Be that as it may, it cannot be the same Aryans that the linguists are talking about.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SwamyG » 12 Aug 2014 09:25

Yazidi and Indian/Murugan connections?

http://www.artforthemasses.us/castacon/ ... .php?t=710 Interestingly it addresses so many different concepts from India. Good read.

There is one more book "India in Kurdistan" by one Paramesha Chaudhry that talks about Rig Vedic connections of the Kurds.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 12 Aug 2014 10:00

Ramana garu: I remember hh. Thought he reappeared as b. Looks like not the same person. Both are quite erudite and are after primary sources, so the confusion.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2014 10:07

Was HH his handle or is it a short form? If its the latter, do you mind expanding it?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SwamyG » 12 Aug 2014 10:12

HH => Hauma Hamiddha. I have seen/read him in http://www.india-forum.com

There are lots of Right Wingers, who support some form of AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 12 Aug 2014 13:31

Prem Kumar wrote: His blog is interesting to follow, though I dont agree with his conclusions whenever he writes about AIT. He also writes about a lot of other things - medieval wars etc. I'm yet to ask him if he has posted on this thread. His blog: http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/

His conclusions or even intuitive suggestions are often slippery and unconvincing. For instance:

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... the-genes/

In the above blog post, Somasushma ji seems to suggest that access to Vedic knowledge and its transmission is via genetic pathways. Personally, I do agree that genetics is an important factor in transmitting experiences, but it is the significance assigned to any mental experiences in present time that is the real Veda, and genetics is not a decisive factor in that. Theoretically, there are several vectors that are being missed out here, IMHO. I wish he could be available to answer questions, in case I am misunderstanding his position.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2014 22:01

Thanks for the background, guys! From the posts by that Vamsee Ji quoted, it definitely looks like the same person.

What's funny about some of the RW AIT defenders (if I can put my pisko hat on) is that they believe theirs is an "enlightened AIT belief", whence they are able to accept the "scholarly" evidence that favors AIT, while still retaining their core Indic beliefs. They have "moved on". Therefore, they are superior to OIT-proponents who are buffoons for supporting OIT (which is devoid of scholarly value) due to jingoism + insecurity

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SwamyG » 12 Aug 2014 22:35

"moved on" is apt. I know a tambraham who belongs to AIT group; he was one of the most knowledgeable person I had ever met online in the early 2000s. In fact he motivated me (indirectly) to read books/sources. It was one of those heydays of Indic Renaissance on the Internet. He managed to convert another tambrahm into the AIT group as well. The second guy is hardcore Hindutva guy who authors articles that many of you must have read :-) and is pretty popular on some niche US Hindutva circles. And the World is small, the first guy is friends with HH and was an OITer in the early 2000s then changed his stance based on his own 'research' :-)); and is no longer interested in discussions on these subjects. He thinks he has done his research and due diligence, and have taken a stance and moved on with their life. They are not interested in convincing others of their view points.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Aug 2014 02:17

Re: Yazidis in the West Asia thread who venerate peacocks --
1. What was the native range of the peacock 5000 years ago?
The modern range is here:
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/a ... s/peacock/

2. The word for peacock does appear in the Rg Veda, does it not? (VIII.1-25?)

3. We are told that King Solomon of Israel of the Old Testament imported peacocks. So they've been around the Middle East for quite a while. The question is how old is the trade in peacocks, assuming that they had a range 5000-6000 years ago that is as depicted.

PS: we need this paper: B. Brentjes ("The Mitannians and the Peacock", in M.S. Asimov et al. (eds.), _Ethnic Problems of the History of Central Asia in the Early Period_, Moscow, Soviet Committee on the Study of Civilization of Central Asia, 1981, pp. 145-148)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 13 Aug 2014 02:27

X-post from west asia thread

Skanda wrote:The massacre of the Yazidis
Who are the Yazidi and why does the IS want to exterminate them? Although influenced by Christianity and Islam, the Yazidi religion has ancient roots that go back at least to the late Bronze Age. Interestingly, their beliefs have many similarities with Hinduism — for instance, they believe in reincarnation, say their prayers facing the sun at sunrise and sunset, etc. They also worship Tawuse-Melek, the peacock angel — a bird not found in Yazidi lands, but only in the Indian subcontinent.

Once, these cultural links would have been explained away in terms of an “Aryan invasion” from Central Asia. However, we now know that the great Harappan cities were abandoned due to climate change and the drying of the Saraswati river around 2000 BC. Most people moved on to the Ganga or went south, thereby seeding Indic civilisation. But, did some groups migrate west? There is a lot of evidence of Indian links with the Middle East during the Bronze Age. Zoroastrianism, the religion of ancient Iran and of their Parsi descendants, is clearly related to Vedic religion and the oldest Zoroastrian texts — the Gathas — are composed in a language very close to Rig Vedic Sanskrit.

Intriguingly, there is evidence of an Indian tribe that may have migrated even further west. We have details of a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni around 1380 BC. The Mitanni were a tribe that once ruled over the same area now inhabited by the Yazidi and the treaty invokes the names of Vedic gods Indra, Varuna, Nasatya and Mitra. We also know that the Mitanni were not locals but had come from the east. The names of their leaders and several of their military and equestrian terms also appear to be derived from Sanskrit. Most intriguingly, Mitanni art shows peacocks and peacock-like griffins.

Are the Yazidis descendants of the Mitanni? We do not know for sure, but it is certainly an intriguing possibility, especially since recent genetic studies show that certain lineages commonly found in northern India are also found in eastern Iran and among the Kurds (no specific data is available on the Yazidi).

Over time, the Yazidis were dubbed as “devil-worshippers” and subjected to constant persecution. It was especially extreme under the Ottoman Turks in the 18th and 19th centuries. A series of massacres killed thousands and almost led to their extinction. Under Saddam Hussain, they were not subjected to overt religious persecution, but remained under pressure to Arabise their culture. Matters have become much worse since the dictator was deposed. In April 2007, gunmen dragged 23 Yazidi men from a bus and shot them dead. In August that year, a series of coordinated car-bombs killed at least 300 more, including women and children.



Rony wrote:



Ajatshatru wrote:"Yazidi and Hindu Similarity":

http://kiranasis.blogspot.in/2014/08/ya ... arity.html



Rony wrote:Check out this Yezidi site

http://www.yeziditruth.org


The Yezidi Name

Since their founding many thousands of years ago in India, these people have always been known as the Yezidis or Yazidis. According to Eszter Spat in The Yezidis, the name is derived from ez Xwede dam, meaning “I was created by God.” Some Yezidis maintain that it translates as “Followers of the true path.” The term Yezidi or Yazidi is also very close to the Persion/Zoroastrian word Yazdan, meaning “God“, and Yazata, meaning “divine” or “angelic being“.

For this reason scholars have theorized a Persian origin for the Yezidis. Other scholars have associated the name Yazidi with Yazid bin Muawiyah, a Moslem Caliph ofthe early Umayyad Dynasty. According to the current Yezidi belief, however, the Caliph Yazid was a Moslem ruler who eventually became disenchanted with his religion and converted to Yezidism.


The Peacock Angel

The Peacock Angel and the Sumerians

In the religion of Sumeria the Peacock Angel was manifest as Enki, the Lord of the Earth, who was also the Lord of Wisdom and the Serpent on the Tree of Dilman, the Sumerian Eden. The Sumerians may have adopted Enki from Yezidi emissaries from India who played a role in the fledgling Sumerian civilization. Or they may have received him from the gnostic sect of Mandeans who were also assimilated into Sumerian civilization after migrating from the East, specifically Sri Lanka, the island patronized by the Peacock Angel as the Hindu Murugan or Sanat Kumara.

The Peacock Angel in Hinduism

Since the Yezidis originated in India, the Hindus’ manifestation of Tawsi Melek is naturally very close to the Peacock Angel of the Yezidis.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Suraj » 13 Aug 2014 02:28

They have been known to be imported to Europe since the time of Alexander. But there's a significant difference between them being imported as a novelty or an object of fascination - as the Greeks viewed them, and being an important deity of another culture. The Yazidis are unique in this regard, outside of the subcontinent.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Aug 2014 04:10

Good to start seeing mainstream articles like this Indian Express one & the News Laundry one I posted yesterday talk openly about Indian tribes moving out and stating that the AMT is bunk!

Once a critical mass of population internalizes this message, then all the AIT/AMT bullshit & nonsensical scholarship will be pooh-poohed by Indians. The ground will be fertile for a solid OIT theory to emerge

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Anantha » 13 Aug 2014 04:20

SwamyG wrote:HH => Hauma Hamiddha. I have seen/read him in http://www.india-forum.com

There are lots of Right Wingers, who support some form of AIT.


There are several RW guys who are closet AIT believers, mostly because they do not want to believe that their forefathers were Africans. Also AIT gives some of these "upper caste" guys a relationship to Europeans.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 13 Aug 2014 05:51

Anantha: good observation. The way to deflate their "racist" affinity to the Caucasus is it remind them gently that everybody is from Africa.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Aug 2014 06:05

matrimc wrote:Anantha: good observation. The way to deflate their "racist" affinity to the Caucasus is it remind them gently that everybody is from Africa.


To mix up the unversalism thread with this one, they are "Balu category 1" people who have bought into WU and are trying to explain their superior status using the same White European Christian superiority ideas. To an extent Indians were forced into seeing similarities as Balu said. Tilak himself did that. There was great admiration for the light skinned Brahmin when the Brits first came. That group was initially bought into the British mode of thinking - but later the Brits abandoned that, while the Indians who had gone up that route did not change because they lacked ideas. And science.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 13 Aug 2014 15:32

matrimc wrote:Anantha: good observation. The way to deflate their "racist" affinity to the Caucasus is it remind them gently that everybody is from Africa.

Premendra Priyadarshi would argue that everyone is from India :D
I'll link that YouTube video of his talk, where he proposed this theory (based on Genetics) that Out Of Africa is only half deep truth and there was on Out of India before the now well known Out of Africa. :roll:
Well, I'm fine with either theories and am not dogmatic about them.
All this reminds me, Petraglia had informed in one of his papers that some place in Andhra has shown continuity of human life by signs of sustenance across the ash deposits of Mount Toba explosion. In other words, life continued .. there were survivors.
There are many such interesting pieces of raw data lying around that need a 'dot connecting' exercise.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Aug 2014 17:52

Wow! I was totally ignorant of this event, and this whole scientific community. :eek:

Interesting conferences, surely! Do they start their Plenary Lectures and Banquets in 3D IMAX theaters, I wonder.

For example, ancient stone tools in southern India were found above and below a thick layer of ash from the Toba eruption and were very similar across these layers, suggesting that the dust clouds from the eruption did not wipe out this local population.[37][38][39] Additional archaeological evidence from southern and northern India also suggests a lack of evidence for effects of the eruption on local populations, leading the authors of the study to conclude, "many forms of life survived the supereruption, contrary to other research which has suggested significant animal extinctions and genetic bottlenecks".[40] However, evidence from pollen analysis has suggested prolonged deforestation in South Asia, and some researchers have suggested that the Toba eruption may have forced humans to adopt new adaptive strategies, which may have permitted them to replace Neanderthals and "other archaic human species".[41] This has been challenged by evidence for the presence of Neanderthals in Europe and Homo floresiensis in Southeastern Asia who survived the eruption by 50,000 and 60,000 years, respectively.[42]


So this calmly goes on the assumption that humans (a) lived in southern India and (b) used tools well before, and continuously through, the ash-fall 77,000 years ago. Given the state of technology except for cell-phones in many parts of India today, why would anyone think that a community that used 'tools' that far ago, did not already have a deep philosophical knowledge base?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Aug 2014 17:58

BTW, this implies that any archipelago / whatever they call clusters of islands, are remnants of super-volcanos. When was the eruption of the one around the LakshaDweep/ Diego Garcia/ Maldives? This would have had a much more significant impact than one in Sumatra. Or the one in the South Indian Ocean, where the MH370 search gangs were prowling?

Or the Andamans? How do these ppl know that the ash that was found in Andhra is from Toba, not from the Andamans? And the ash in East Africa not from the Maldives?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SwamyG » 13 Aug 2014 18:16

Anantha wrote:
SwamyG wrote:HH => Hauma Hamiddha. I have seen/read him in http://www.india-forum.com

There are lots of Right Wingers, who support some form of AIT.


There are several RW guys who are closet AIT believers, mostly because they do not want to believe that their forefathers were Africans. Also AIT gives some of these "upper caste" guys a relationship to Europeans.

I disagree with you from the aspect that people who I know are not racists and there is no fear/hatred of African ancestry. Your experiences might be different from mine. Also on the connection to the Europeans, these RT+AIT group are not craving for some relationship with Europeans, let alone 'White Europeans'.

While I am no expert, but there must be a term for this habit, here ( and elsewhere), where one psycho-analyses people who disagree with our theories, and label them into neat buckets for knocking their heads.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Aug 2014 19:57

There is/was a guy on DFI who openly said he was of north Indian Aryan stock and was pointing out how the black dravidian south Indians are ugly and a different race and that his lot definitely came from somewhere up north - Russia or somewhere. He posted lots of photos of people from north Indian and Russia and and compared them with selected photos from south India to prove his point. I am sure the thread still exists. And he was not even Paki.

So it would be wrong to generalize that all Indian followers of AIT are people who are being unfairly dissed.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Yogi_G » 13 Aug 2014 22:07

so is neanderthal genes in Europeans a confirmed fact?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Aug 2014 22:39

If Toba explosion was 69K - 77K YBP and South Indians had tools prior to ash settling down, then the proposed ASI settlement dates of 65K YBP needs to be revised to an earlier date!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Aug 2014 05:38

Precisely.

Now we are over another hill - towards the reality that the Vedas came from those who witnessed the cataclysm when JambuDweep collided with China. The "tribal knowledge" in the animals on the coast of Asia (incl. India) that made them run for high ground when the water rapidly receded... must have come from a history of major tsunamis through the ages.

The report above does not mention the types of tools found - or why they were found (discarded as in broken? worn out? disaster?) or whether they were put out there by the Executive Classes on vacation, or some laborers who died working the fields.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prasad » 14 Aug 2014 14:12

Mongolji,
wasn't the indian plate collision with asia 30million years bp?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 14 Aug 2014 17:46

shiv wrote:There is/was a guy on DFI who openly said he was of north Indian Aryan stock and was pointing out how the black dravidian south Indians are ugly and a different race and that his lot definitely came from somewhere up north - Russia or somewhere. He posted lots of photos of people from north Indian and Russia and and compared them with selected photos from south India to prove his point. I am sure the thread still exists. And he was not even Paki.
So it would be wrong to generalize that all Indian followers of AIT are people who are being unfairly dissed.

He is a Kashmiri Dogra shiv.
By the way, I think we share three forums (IFG being the third) .. am I right ?
Last edited by Virendra on 14 Aug 2014 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 14 Aug 2014 17:47

UlanBatori wrote:Wow! I was totally ignorant of this event, and this whole scientific community. :eek:

Interesting conferences, surely! Do they start their Plenary Lectures and Banquets in 3D IMAX theaters, I wonder.

For example, ancient stone tools in southern India were found above and below a thick layer of ash from the Toba eruption and were very similar across these layers, suggesting that the dust clouds from the eruption did not wipe out this local population.[37][38][39] Additional archaeological evidence from southern and northern India also suggests a lack of evidence for effects of the eruption on local populations, leading the authors of the study to conclude, "many forms of life survived the supereruption, contrary to other research which has suggested significant animal extinctions and genetic bottlenecks".[40] However, evidence from pollen analysis has suggested prolonged deforestation in South Asia, and some researchers have suggested that the Toba eruption may have forced humans to adopt new adaptive strategies, which may have permitted them to replace Neanderthals and "other archaic human species".[41] This has been challenged by evidence for the presence of Neanderthals in Europe and Homo floresiensis in Southeastern Asia who survived the eruption by 50,000 and 60,000 years, respectively.[42]


So this calmly goes on the assumption that humans (a) lived in southern India and (b) used tools well before, and continuously through, the ash-fall 77,000 years ago. Given the state of technology except for cell-phones in many parts of India today, why would anyone think that a community that used 'tools' that far ago, did not already have a deep philosophical knowledge base?

Tools they found are Acheulean i.e. stone age tools. So nothing jaw dropping there, atleast in case of tools.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby symontk » 15 Aug 2014 21:45

UlanBatori wrote:BTW, this implies that any archipelago / whatever they call clusters of islands, are remnants of super-volcanos. When was the eruption of the one around the LakshaDweep/ Diego Garcia/ Maldives? This would have had a much more significant impact than one in Sumatra. Or the one in the South Indian Ocean, where the MH370 search gangs were prowling?

Or the Andamans? How do these ppl know that the ash that was found in Andhra is from Toba, not from the Andamans? And the ash in East Africa not from the Maldives?


Each volcano has its own signature in its volcanic ashes. So its easy to identify

http://www.iceandclimate.nbi.ku.dk/research/strat_dating/synch_ice_core_rec/vol_ash_layer/


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