Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Ashok Sarraff
BRFite
Posts: 619
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 00:44

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 25 Nov 2014 01:09

fanne wrote:Hmm guys, 9 skeleton, or was it 3, makes an invasion and a massacre!!
I am sure, the new history will point out that lack of cut skeleton shows that Aryans were in fact loved and welcomed and Dravidian had forgone their own culture and women (how later age religion of peace spread, the native oppressed population offered their women and committed suicide out of love and respect for the new religion).


That was the Original Thanksgiving, fanne ji. :rotfl:

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21036
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 26 Nov 2014 05:31



kenop
BRFite
Posts: 1333
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 07:28

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby kenop » 29 Nov 2014 06:33

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/the-eternal-harappan-script-tease?@Openthemag
Around two kilometres away from the famous Vittala Temple in Hampi, Karnataka ....

... an ancient rock painting, drawn, he says, with some form of vegetable oil, and containing as many as 22 symbols. He continued to discover similar rock paintings with different symbols around Hampi after that.

...

his research on Gondi culture and visits to tribal areas in Chhattisgarh convinced him that the rock paintings he had encountered in Hampi were Gondi symbols.

...

“This is a major find,” Metry says. “Not only does it show that the Indus script is connected to Gondi language and culture, it proves that the modern-day Gond [Tribals] and South Indians are people of the Indus Valley Civilisation. The Harappans migrated from the Indus Valley to South India.”

...

claim that the ability to decipher the script has proven elusive because no one has attempted to study the script using Gondi symbols and language. They point out how many of the symbols in the script resemble those found in Ghotuls, the traditional learning centres for unmarried Gond youngsters found in some of their villages. They claim that the famous Pashupati seal with the figure of a man with horns echoes the old Gondi practice of wearing a crown of horns for religious occasions.



The article also has
historian Michel Danino rubbishes the theory of the latter’s [Indus Valley people] southward migration in a paper he presented at the International Symposium on Indus Civilisation and Tamil Language in 2007.

Aha the AIT guys have still not given up.
The sole comment at the end of the article suggests that one read Prof Witzel's paper 8)
Well well

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2014 09:59

kenop wrote:Aha the AIT guys have still not given up.
The sole comment at the end of the article suggests that one read Prof Witzel's paper 8)
Well well

I have responded

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3980
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby partha » 29 Nov 2014 11:56

If this has been posted already, apologies. I have not read all posts of part 1 & 2 though I try to keep up. I searched for 'Hunter' but didn't find any post from Out-of-India threads. This is from wiki entry for Brahmi script. A scholar named G R Hunter has proposed a derivation of Brahmi alphabets from Indus script. They resemble pretty closely. Considering India had an oral tradition of passing knowledge from one generation to another, it is possible that post Mahabharata, a script started to evolve for Sanskrit language. Both Indus and Brahmi scripts look primitive and could have been successive stages in this evolution.

Image

Edit: I had searched without logging in which skipped results from GDF. I now see that ramanaji had posted the same thing in "Deciphering Indus Script" thread in GDF - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6626&p=1505871&hilit=Hunter+Brahmi#p1505871

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 30 Nov 2014 17:48


Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 03 Dec 2014 10:52

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Murugan ji,

I don't have a Facebook account, but my email is my first name DOT my last name at Jeemail.com. Please note two r's and two f's in the last name. TIA.


check

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 03 Dec 2014 11:08

I wonder why guys are still obsessed with Horses?

See, the tall, handsome aryans, the great great grandpas of witzel, with broad forehead and sharp features came invading on horses. They had iron tools (forget Rakesh Tiwari for a while) and they destroyed dense forests while invading eastwards in gangetic plains. They cut huge trees while they rested their horses on the banks of Ganga and Yamuna etc.

Now they wanted to remove the huge fallen trees and they cant do it with their strong horses hence they turned to local dal and rice eating tribals whom they subjugated to help them with their well trained, domesticated, small elephants. Elephants proved useful, no? Wasn't Alakshendra's army was shit scared of elephants?

Irony is, the tribals of India were never impressed by horse of aryans. These tribes, who were contemporary of greeks or before greeks arrived, ISC contemporaries of Mesopotamia never depicted horses on their coins or seals. These guys were never in owe of horse but vice versa is not true...

The Romans and Greeks were so impressed by elephants that they used to wear crown/head gears with elephant head motifs, coins were minted with elephants to show that they now own few in their stable.

Greeks
Image

I personally believe, and I have strong reasons to believe, that domesticating an elephant is much more genius than domesticating a horse

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5337
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 03 Dec 2014 14:12

Tigers, elephants, horses, rhinos, gaurs, dolphins, muggars/ghadials, eagles, peacocks, swans could be part of emblems more than usual bland (or ate all fuana & invaded others) symbolism.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 03 Dec 2014 14:24

Murugan wrote:I personally believe, and I have strong reasons to believe, that domesticating an elephant is much more genius than domesticating a horse


In a way yes. But I think there is a different narrative here.

You may have seen some scenes from past US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, how the people there used to dance around Humvees, or used to drive them even, when they were able to capture one from the American forces.

It is a means to boost one ego, by showing oneself as having gone head-to-head with a world power.

The elephant heads on Greek coins is more like a propaganda program by Ptolemy and others who wanted to boost their ego by showing that Alexander and indirectly they went head to head with the Indians and their elephants.

Now Alexander did get a solid whipping from the Indians, but out there in the West, one could narrate a different story, as if one had been victorious.

Just like Heracles/Hercules used to wear a lion's head, so too Alexander is shown as wearing an elephant's head. But indirectly they are admitting the ferocity of elephants.

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1806
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 10 Dec 2014 07:31

Apologies if this is known or has come up already, or if it's not really relevant. I'm a humble shishyaa onlee, so please to humor me a little, when I get excited by occasional epiphanies. I did search forum posts to see if this had come up - didn't find anything.

Was thinking, for some reason, of words like "euphemism," "euthanasia," "eulogy," etc. Seems like the root "eu" might mean "good" (maybe even "Europe" comes from this - not according to Wiki, but it's still possible). So I checked the root "eu," and it indeed means "good" or "well" in Greek: Source 1, Source 2.

Then I thought of the Sanskrit root "su," which means "good" or "well." You can see this in my handle - "su-darshan," which can be translated as "good-looking."

"S" becomes "H" becomes "I" from India to Arabia to Greece. "Sindhu" becomes "Hindu" becomes "Indu" (India), "Shakti" becomes "Hekate," whatever.

That's it, that's the epiphany. "Su" probably became "Iu"/"Eu".

Thanks for the indulgence.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7021
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 10 Dec 2014 09:27

A data point not many may have known about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helg%C3%B6

A Buddha Statuette discovered at a Viking archaeological site circa 6 Century AD...

johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 10 Dec 2014 10:43

sudarshan wrote:Apologies if this is known or has come up already, or if it's not really relevant. I'm a humble shishyaa onlee, so please to humor me a little, when I get excited by occasional epiphanies. I did search forum posts to see if this had come up - didn't find anything.

Was thinking, for some reason, of words like "euphemism," "euthanasia," "eulogy," etc. Seems like the root "eu" might mean "good" (maybe even "Europe" comes from this - not according to Wiki, but it's still possible). So I checked the root "eu," and it indeed means "good" or "well" in Greek: Source 1, Source 2.

Then I thought of the Sanskrit root "su," which means "good" or "well." You can see this in my handle - "su-darshan," which can be translated as "good-looking."

"S" becomes "H" becomes "I" from India to Arabia to Greece. "Sindhu" becomes "Hindu" becomes "Indu" (India), "Shakti" becomes "Hekate," whatever.

That's it, that's the epiphany. "Su" probably became "Iu"/"Eu".

Thanks for the indulgence.


Great theory, saar. Based on this theory,
Surabhi -> Hurapi -> Europe is possible?

JE Menon wrote:A data point not many may have known about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helg%C3%B6

A Buddha Statuette discovered at a Viking archaeological site circa 6 Century AD...


Yea, saar. I always suspected that the Buddhism had spread far and wide(under the patronage of Kushanas and Shathavahanas along with southern kingdoms).

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7021
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 10 Dec 2014 10:49

JohneeG,

Perhaps. It is equally likely that the people of that settlement picked it up somewhere and took it home. The Vikings were legendary wanderers. There were other items there too, like a Coptic ladle from North Africa, and (more easily explained) an Irish crozier.

It is, however, a definite indicator that Indian artefacts (at the very least) were spreading worldwide by about 500 AD. Maybe the Vikings were told something about the artefacts too.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2014 13:49

sudarshan wrote:Apologies if this is known or has come up already, or if it's not really relevant. I'm a humble shishyaa onlee, so please to humor me a little, when I get excited by occasional epiphanies. I did search forum posts to see if this had come up - didn't find anything.

Was thinking, for some reason, of words like "euphemism," "euthanasia," "eulogy," etc. Seems like the root "eu" might mean "good" (maybe even "Europe" comes from this - not according to Wiki, but it's still possible). So I checked the root "eu," and it indeed means "good" or "well" in Greek: Source 1, Source 2.

Then I thought of the Sanskrit root "su," which means "good" or "well." You can see this in my handle - "su-darshan," which can be translated as "good-looking."

"S" becomes "H" becomes "I" from India to Arabia to Greece. "Sindhu" becomes "Hindu" becomes "Indu" (India), "Shakti" becomes "Hekate," whatever.

That's it, that's the epiphany. "Su" probably became "Iu"/"Eu".

Thanks for the indulgence.


I am sure you are right. The thought had occurred to me and I can't recall if I had mentioned it in an earlier avatar of this thread.

A lot of Greek names with Eu- also probably mean Su-

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 15:47

sudarshan wrote:Apologies if this is known or has come up already, or if it's not really relevant. I'm a humble shishyaa onlee, so please to humor me a little, when I get excited by occasional epiphanies. I did search forum posts to see if this had come up - didn't find anything.

Was thinking, for some reason, of words like "euphemism," "euthanasia," "eulogy," etc. Seems like the root "eu" might mean "good" (maybe even "Europe" comes from this - not according to Wiki, but it's still possible). So I checked the root "eu," and it indeed means "good" or "well" in Greek: Source 1, Source 2.

Then I thought of the Sanskrit root "su," which means "good" or "well." You can see this in my handle - "su-darshan," which can be translated as "good-looking."

"S" becomes "H" becomes "I" from India to Arabia to Greece. "Sindhu" becomes "Hindu" becomes "Indu" (India), "Shakti" becomes "Hekate," whatever.

That's it, that's the epiphany. "Su" probably became "Iu"/"Eu".

Thanks for the indulgence.


johneeG wrote:Great theory, saar. Based on this theory,
Surabhi -> Hurapi -> Europe is possible?


I think we may be here onto something. :D

Wikipedia on Europa

The etymology of her Greek name (εὐρυ- "wide" or "broad" and ὤψ "eye(s)" or "face") suggests that Europa as a goddess represented the cow (with a wide face) Hathor, at least on some symbolic level.


Another indication that Europa and Surabhi are the same comes from the myth surrounding her abduction. In Greek mythology it is by Zeus, in Puranas, the abduction is by Kartavirya Arjuna.

The "abduction" may or may not be referring to the spread of dairy farming through the West and elsewhere using Indian cows, for the Cretean myth is that Zeus came and abducted her in the form of a bull.

sudarshan garu, johneeG garu,

Just letting you know, I live on the continent named after Surabhi! :wink:

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7021
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 10 Dec 2014 15:54

And of course, in Greek, the word for Europe is Evropi or Evropa so the ending gets closer as well...

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 15:58

The cows are coming home finally! :) :wink:

So if Europa == Surabhi

What is Eureka? :)

One gets to hear a lot that the name India is given to us by Europeans. Well the news is that the name Europa has been given to them by the Indians.

So where are the holy cows, in India or in Europe?

I wonder if this insight would have any effect on beef consumption in Europe!

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 16:27

JE Menon wrote:And of course, in Greek, the word for Europe is Evropi or Evropa so the ending gets closer as well...


Yes indeed. Greek write Ευρώπη!

johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 10 Dec 2014 16:30

:D Cool. Yep, it seemed like we were on the right track.

RajeshA saar,
it seems that Zeus represents Indhra. Now, so this story seems to be saying that Indhra stole the cow Surabhi.

So, is there a similar story-line about Indhra stealing the cows in Bhaarathiya scriptures?

Apparently, there is, and we seem to have discussed about it in OIT thread in the past. Of course, we didn't know about this Europe connection at that time.

johneeG wrote:
shiv wrote:
The knowledge that Indra rescued 60,000 cows to release floodwaters. Don't believe me? Ask Griffiths.


johneeG wrote:

Saars,
could you please provide the Sanskruth version of this particular Manthra? or tell me where I can find this Manthra.


shiv wrote:You will never find such a mantra. If you find it please tell me. I am also searching - in between bouts of uncontrollable laughter and vomiting with disgust. But here is a link to a world phamous Vedic school, the British Museum
http://www.ancientindia.co.uk/staff/res ... g32doc.doc
Quote:
One of the greatest deeds performed by Indra is to release the waters held captive by the demons. There are a few legends connected with this theme. At times, the clouds are imagined as cows, which have been trapped in a cave by the demons. Indra rescues the cows after waging a war against the demons, signified by the thunder and lightning. The cows show their gratitude in loud bellowing cries, which mark the beginning of the rains. One of the greatest deeds performed by Indra is to release the waters held captive by the demons. There are a few legends connected with this theme. At times, the clouds are imagined as cows, which have been trapped in a cave by the demons. Indra rescues the cows after waging a war against the demons, signified by the thunder and lightning. The cows show their gratitude in loud bellowing cries, which mark the beginning of the rains.


I just did a cursory google search and I found this:
Quote:
Chapter 10 (Appendix 3)

SaramA and the PaNis: A Mythological Theme in the Rigveda

The myth of SaramA and the PaNis is found in the Rigveda X.108.

The hymn, as Griffith notes, �is a colloquy between SaramA, the messenger of the Gods or of Indra� and the PaNis or envious demons who have carried off the cows or rays of light which Indra wishes to recover�.1

But, according to Macdonell, the hymn is about �the capture by Indra of the cows of the PaNis� (who) possess herds of cows which they keep hidden in a cave far beyond the RasA, a mythical river. SaramA, Indra�s messenger, tracks the cows and asks for them in Indra�s name, but is mocked by the PaNis.�2

Clearly, there is a basic difference in the above descriptions of the myth: Griffith�s description suggests that the cows were stolen by the PaNis, and are sought to be recovered by Indra; Macdonell�s description suggests that the cows belong to the PaNis and are coveted by Indra.

The myth is a complex one, which has developed many shades and facets in the Rigveda itself. We will examine this myth as follows:

I. Development of the Vedic myth.
II. The PaNis in Teutonic Mythology.
III. SaramA and the PaNis in Greek Mythology.
IV. Mythology and History.


I
DEVELOPMENT OF THE VEDIC MYTH

Primitive myths came into being out of efforts to arrive at explanations for the phenomena of nature.

One very common phenomenon in nature is the daily transition from day to night and night to day. This was conceived of in mythical terms as an eternal struggle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness: the forces of darkness, with unfailing regularity, stole away the Sun or its rays, leading to the onset of night. The forces of light, with equal regularity, rescued the Sun, or recovered its rays, leading to the onset of daytime.

The forces of light had a specific name: Devas (from div-, �light�). The forces of darkness, however, did not have such a clear-cut name, as darkness (being merely the absence of light) is a negative phenomenon. The action of stealing and hiding away the Sun or its rays was likened to that of the miserly traders and merchants who hoarded goods and money, hence the name PaNi, originally meaning trader or merchant, was applied to them.

In the course of time, a regular phenomenon of nature was converted into a single mythical incident: the incident involving SaramA and the PaNis.

The progressive development of the three main mythical entities in the SaramA-PaNi myth (ie. SaramA, the PaNis, and the cows) may be noted:

1. SaramA is progressively:

a. �the Dawn who recovers the rays of the Sun that have been carried away by night.�3

b. �the hound of Indra and mother of the two dogs called after their mother SArameyas who are the watchdogs of Yama the God of the Dead.�4

c. �the messenger of the Gods or of Indra.�5

2. The PaNis are progressively:

a. �in accordance with the original meaning of the word, merchants or traders.�6

b. �a class of envious demons watching over treasures.�7

c. �the fiends who steal cows and hide them in mountain caverns.�8

3. The cows are progressively:

a. �the rays of light carried off and concealed by the demons of darkness,�9 the PaNis.

b. �the rain-clouds carried off and kept concealed by the PaNis.�10

c. �the PaNi�s hoarded wealth, the cattle and the wealth in horses and in kine.�11

The myth starts off with the idea of the PaNis, the demons of darkness, stealing the rays of light and hiding them away at night, and SaramA, the Dawn, recovering them in the morning, as a matter of daily routine.

The original concept of the rays of light is still present in early hymns (VI.20.4; VII.9.2), but these rays of light are more regularly depicted as cows.

SaramA, who searches out and recovers the rays of the Sun is soon conceived of as a kind of hound, �the hound of Indra, who tracked the stolen cows�.12

A regular phenomenon gradually becomes a single incident: SaramA�s searching out and tracking of the cows stolen by the PaNis becomes a major incident in itself, and develops new angles. In some versions, the PaNis, merchants and boarders of wealth, now become the owners of the cows, and Indra becomes the covetous God who covets these cows. SaramA now becomes a messenger of Indra and the Gods in their quest for the cows of the PaNis. This is the myth represented in hymn X. 108.

The further development of this myth may be noted:

1. In X. 108, as D.D. Kosambi points out, �the hymn says nothing about stolen cattle, but is a direct, blunt demand for tribute in cattle, which the PaNis scornfully reject. They are then warned of dire consequences.�13

As we have seen, Macdonell notes that the PaNis �possess herds of cows which they keep hidden in a cave far beyond the RasA, a mythical river. SaramA, Indra�s messenger, tracks the cows and asks for them in Indra�s name, but is mocked by the PaNis.�14

The gist of the hymn is as follows:

a. SaramA makes her way over long paths and over the waters of the RasA and conveys to the PaNis Indra�s demand for their �ample stores of wealth�.

b. The PaNis refuse, and tauntingly offer to make Indra the herdsman of their cattle.

c. SaramA warns them of dire consequences if they refuse Indra�s demand.

d. The PaNis express their willingness to do battle with Indra. But they offer to accept SaramA as their sister if she will stay on with them and share their cattle and wealth.

e. SaramA, however, rejects the offer, and issues a final warning.

Here, the hymn ends; and the battle which follows, in which Indra defeats the PaNis, is to be assumed.

2. The myth is also found in the JaiminIya BrAhmaNa, II.440-442. Here, the cows are again clearly referred to as. the cows of the Gods stolen by the PaNis. This time, the Gods first send SuparNa, the eagle or the �Sun-bird�. However, the PaNis bribe him into silence, and he accepts their gifts and returns without any information. The enraged Gods strangle him, and he vomits out the curds, etc. received from the PaNis.

Then the Gods send SaramA. She crosses the RasA and approaches the PaNis. She is also offered bribes, but ( as in the Rigveda) she refuses their blandishments and returns to Indra with the information that the cows are hidden inside the RasA. She and her descendants are then blessed by a grateful Indra.

3. The myth is found, finally, in the BRhaddevatA, viii 24-36.

Here, the myth develops a curious twist. The same. sequence of events takes place, but this time SaramA accepts the bribe of the PaNis, and apparently transfers her loyalties to them. When she returns to Indra and refuses to disclose the hideout of the cows, Indra kicks her in a rage. She vomits out the milk received as a bribe, and then goes back trembling to the PaNis.

Thus, as the myth develops, we find a radical transformation in the relationship between SaramA and the PaNis. From being initially hostile to each other, the two are increasingly identified with each other, and the nature of the original myth is completely lost.

A side development in this whole myth is the development of the concept of the SArameyas, the sons of SaramA, as the hounds of Yama. They are a pair of four-eyed hounds who guard the pathway leading to the Realm of the Dead, and conduct the souls of the dead to their destination.

It will also be necessary to examine the characteristics of another Vedic God, PUSan, who represents one of the forms of the Sun. PUSan is one of the older deities in the Rigveda, being more prominent in MaNDala VI than in later MaNDalas (five of the eight hymns to PUsan in the Rigveda are in MaNDala VI), and many of his characteristics later devolve onto SaramA and the PaNis in Vedic as well as in other mythologies.

The main characteristics of PUSan are:

1. PUSan is basically an Aditya or Sun-God, and it is clear that he represents the Morning Sun: �according to SAyaNa, PUSan�s sister is USas or Dawn.�15 Moreover, in I.184.3, the ASvins are called PUSans; and the ASvins, as Griffith notes in his very first reference to them �are the earliest bringers of light in the morning sky who in their chariots hasten onward before the dawn, and prepare the way for her�.16

2. PUSan�s main function, however, is as the God of roadways, journeys and travellers: �As knower of paths, PUSan is conceived as a guardian of roads. He is besought to remove dangers, the wolf, the waylayer from the path (1.42.1-3)� He is invoked to protect from harm on his path (6.54.9) and to grant an auspicious path (10.59.7). He is the guardian of every path (6.49.8) and lord of the road (6.53.1). He is a guide on roads (VS.22.20). So, in the SUtras, whoever is starting on a journey makes an offering to PUSan, the road-maker, while reciting RV 6.53; and whoever loses his way turns to PUSan (AGS 3.7.8-9, SSS 3.4.9). Moreover in the morning and evening offerings to all gods and beings PUSan the road-maker receives his on the threshold of the house.�17

3. Another important function of PUSan is as the God who helps find lost objects, particularly lost animals, and especially lost cattle: �As knower of the ways, he can make hidden goods manifest and easy to find (6.48.15). He is in one passage (1.23.14-15; cp. TS 3.3.9.1) said to have found the king who was lost and hidden in secret� and asked to bring him like a lost beast. So, in the SUtras, PUSan is sacrificed to when anything lost is sought (AGS 3.7.9). Similarly, it is characteristic of PUSan that he follows and protects cattle (6.54. 5,6,10; 58.2; cp. 10.26.3)� and drives back the lost.�18 Moreover, �PUSan is the only god who receives the epithet paSupA �protector of cattle� (6.58.2) directly (and not in comparison).�19

Hymn VIII.29, which refers (in riddle form) to the particular characteristics of various Gods, refers to PUSan, in its sixth verse, as follows: �Another, thief like, watches well the ways, and knows the places where the treasures lie.�

4. A very distinctive characteristic of PUSan is his close association with the goat: �His car is drawn by goats (ajASva) instead of horses.�20 This feature is emphasised throughout the
Rigveda: I.138.4; 162.2-4; VI. 55.3,4,6; 57.3; 58.2; IX.67.10; X. 26.8; etc.

5. Another very important function of PUSan is that �he conducts the dead on the far path to the Fathers�� and leads his worshippers thither in safety, showing them the way (10.17.3-5). The AV also speaks of PUSan as conducting to the world of the righteous, the beautiful world of the gods (AV 16.9.2; 18.2.53). So PUSan�s goat conducts the sacrificial horse (1.162.2-3).�21

In post-Vedic Indian mythology, all these entities more or less faded away: neither SaramA nor the PaNis nor PUSan have any important role to play in Puranic mythology.

However, the word PaNi and its variant form VaNi (found only twice in the Rigveda: I.112.11; V.45.6) persisted into later times and provided the etymological roots for a very wide range of words pertaining to trade, commerce and economics, and business activities: paN, �to barter, purchase, buy, risk�; ApaNa, �market, shop�; ApaNika, �mercantile�; paNa, �a coin vANI/baniA, �trader�; vANijya, �commerce�, etc.

Link

So, it seems this is based on Rig Vedha, 10th Mandala and 108th Manthra.

So, I am posting the 107th, 108th and 109th Manthras of 10th Mandala of Rig Vedha(without accents):

आविरभून्महि माघोनमेषां विश्वं जीवं तमसो निरमोचि।

महि ज्योतिः पितृभिर्दत्तमागादुरुः पन्था दक्षिणाया अदर्शि॥ १०.१०७.०१

उच्चा दिवि दक्षिणावन्तो अस्थुर्ये अश्वदाः सह ते सूर्येण।

हिरण्यदा अमृतत्वं भजन्ते वासोदाः सोम प्र तिरन्त आयुः॥ १०.१०७.०२

दैवी पूर्तिर्दक्षिणा देवयज्या न कवारिभ्यो नहि ते पृणन्ति।

अथा नरः प्रयतदक्षिणासोऽवद्यभिया बहवः पृणन्ति॥ १०.१०७.०३

शतधारं वायुमर्कं स्वर्विदं नृचक्षसस्ते अभि चक्षते हविः।

ये पृणन्ति प्र च यच्छन्ति संगमे ते दक्षिणां दुहते सप्तमातरम्॥ १०.१०७.०४

दक्षिणावान्प्रथमो हूत एति दक्षिणावान्ग्रामणीरग्रमेति।

तमेव मन्ये नृपतिं जनानां यः प्रथमो दक्षिणामाविवाय॥ १०.१०७.०५

तमेव ऋषिं तमु ब्रह्माणमाहुर्यज्ञन्यं सामगामुक्थशासम्।

स शुक्रस्य तन्वो वेद तिस्रो यः प्रथमो दक्षिणया रराध॥ १०.१०७.०६

दक्षिणाश्वं दक्षिणा गां ददाति दक्षिणा चन्द्रमुत यद्धिरण्यम्।

दक्षिणान्नं वनुते यो न आत्मा दक्षिणां वर्म कृणुते विजानन्॥ १०.१०७.०७

न भोजा मम्रुर्न न्यर्थमीयुर्न रिष्यन्ति न व्यथन्ते ह भोजाः।

इदं यद्विश्वं भुवनं स्वश्चैतत्सर्वं दक्षिणैभ्यो ददाति॥ १०.१०७.०८

भोजा जिग्युः सुरभिं योनिमग्रे भोजा जिग्युर्वध्वं या सुवासाः।

भोजा जिग्युरन्तःपेयं सुराया भोजा जिग्युर्ये अहूताः प्रयन्ति॥ १०.१०७.०९

भोजायाश्वं सं मृजन्त्याशुं भोजायास्ते कन्या शुम्भमाना।

भोजस्येदं पुष्करिणीव वेश्म परिष्कृतं देवमानेव चित्रम्॥ १०.१०७.१०

भोजमश्वाः सुष्ठुवाहो वहन्ति सुवृद्रथो वर्तते दक्षिणायाः।

भोजं देवासोऽवता भरेषु भोजः शत्रून्समनीकेषु जेता॥ १०.१०७.११


किमिच्छन्ती सरमा प्रेदमानड्दूरे ह्यध्वा जगुरिः पराचैः।

कास्मेहितिः का परितक्म्यासीत्कथं रसाया अतरः पयांसि॥ १०.१०८.०१

इन्द्रस्य दूतीरिषिता चरामि मह इच्छन्ती पणयो निधीन्वः।

अतिष्कदो भियसा तन्न आवत्तथा रसाया अतरं पयांसि॥ १०.१०८.०२

कीदृङ्ङिन्द्रः सरमे का दृशीका यस्येदं दूतीरसरः पराकात्।

आ च गच्छान्मित्रमेना दधामाथा गवां गोपतिर्नो भवाति॥ १०.१०८.०३

नाहं तं वेद दभ्यं दभत्स यस्येदं दूतीरसरं पराकात्।

न तं गूहन्ति स्रवतो गभीरा हता इन्द्रेण पणयः शयध्वे॥ १०.१०८.०४

इमा गावः सरमे या ऐच्छः परि दिवो अन्तान्सुभगे पतन्ती।

कस्त एना अव सृजादयुध्व्युतास्माकमायुधा सन्ति तिग्मा॥ १०.१०८.०५

असेन्या वः पणयो वचांस्यनिषव्यास्तन्वः सन्तु पापीः।

अधृष्टो व एतवा अस्तु पन्था बृहस्पतिर्व उभया न मृळात्॥ १०.१०८.०६

अयं निधिः सरमे अद्रिबुध्नो गोभिरश्वेभिर्वसुभिर्न्यृष्टः।

रक्षन्ति तं पणयो ये सुगोपा रेकु पदमलकमा जगन्थ॥ १०.१०८.०७

एह गमन्नृषयः सोमशिता अयास्यो अङ्गिरसो नवग्वाः।

त एतमूर्वं वि भजन्त गोनामथैतद्वचः पणयो वमन्नित्॥ १०.१०८.०८

एवा च त्वं सरम आजगन्थ प्रबाधिता सहसा दैव्येन।

स्वसारं त्वा कृणवै मा पुनर्गा अप ते गवां सुभगे भजाम॥ १०.१०८.०९

नाहं वेद भ्रातृत्वं नो स्वसृत्वमिन्द्रो विदुरङ्गिरसश्च घोराः।

गोकामा मे अच्छदयन्यदायमपात इत पणयो वरीयः॥ १०.१०८.१०

दूरमित पणयो वरीय उद्गावो यन्तु मिनतीरृतेन।

बृहस्पतिर्या अविन्दन्निगूळ्हाः सोमो ग्रावाण ऋषयश्च विप्राः॥ १०.१०८.११


तेऽवदन्प्रथमा ब्रह्मकिल्बिषेऽकूपारः सलिलो मातरिश्वा।

वीळुहरास्तप उग्रो मयोभूरापो देवीः प्रथमजा ऋतेन॥ १०.१०९.०१

सोमो राजा प्रथमो ब्रह्मजायां पुनः प्रायच्छदहृणीयमानः।

अन्वर्तिता वरुणो मित्र आसीदग्निर्होता हस्तगृह्या निनाय॥ १०.१०९.०२

हस्तेनैव ग्राह्य आधिरस्या ब्रह्मजायेयमिति चेदवोचन्।

न दूताय प्रह्ये तस्थ एषा तथा राष्ट्रं गुपितं क्षत्रियस्य॥ १०.१०९.०३

देवा एतस्यामवदन्त पूर्वे सप्तऋषयस्तपसे ये निषेदुः।

भीमा जाया ब्राह्मणस्योपनीता दुर्धां दधाति परमे व्योमन्॥ १०.१०९.०४

ब्रह्मचारी चरति वेविषद्विषः स देवानां भवत्येकमङ्गम्।

तेन जायामन्वविन्दद्बृहस्पतिः सोमेन नीतां जुह्वं न देवाः॥ १०.१०९.०५

पुनर्वै देवा अददुः पुनर्मनुष्या उत।

राजानः सत्यं कृण्वाना ब्रह्मजायां पुनर्ददुः॥ १०.१०९.०६

पुनर्दाय ब्रह्मजायां कृत्वी देवैर्निकिल्बिषम्।

ऊर्जं पृथिव्या भक्त्वायोरुगायमुपासते॥ १०.१०९.०७

Link

So, clearly the Vedhas talk about rays symbolized by cows. Yet, these so-called experts say that its a myth and then to hide their own nonsense say, 'the myth later progressively turns cows into rays'. Wow!

The silliness of these theories is really mindboggling. Why do they start with the prejudice that the Vedhic manthras must be primitive? If the Manthras are talking about rays(long before these westerners even had any idea that rays could exist), then doesn't it mean that perhaps those Manthras are quite advanced? Maybe the cows are an allegory for rays?

Anyway,
the word used for cows is 'go'. The word 'go' represents any object that has the property of 'moving'. I think the english word 'go' also has its origin in this Vaidhik word 'go'. So, any object that moves is called 'go'. Generally, several objects were called 'go' by the ancients. In Vedhas, many objects are referred as 'go'. They are cows, earth, and rays.

This means that cows, earth and rays have the property of 'moving'. So, when Manthras talk about 'go', then could be referring to cows, or earth or rays. Now, the colonials and commies come up with the interpretation that makes the Vedhas sound like a primitive tribal history. One could easily replace the words with their better synonyms(and better fitted to context) to give more advanced interpretations.

BTW, the earth having the name 'go' is very interesting. Because, if the earth was considered as having a property of moving, then perhaps they thought that the earth was not a stationary object but rather moving object.



Link to post

Surabhi is the name of the divine cow(Kamadhenu). Surabhi and Indhra are mentioned together in Bhagavatham also.

But, I think this connection will be spun as further proof of proto-indo-european or some such thing.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 16:54

johneeG wrote::D Cool. Yep, it seemed like we were on the right track.

RajeshA saar,
it seems that Zeus represents Indhra. Now, so this story seems to be saying that Indhra stole the cow Surabhi.

So, is there a similar story-line about Indhra stealing the cows in Bhaarathiya scriptures?

Apparently, there is, and we seem to have discussed about it in OIT thread in the past. Of course, we didn't know about this Europe connection at that time.

Surabhi is the name of the divine cow(Kamadhenu). Surabhi and Indhra are mentioned together in Bhagavatham also.



Yes I remember now Indra stealing cows. :idea:

johneeG wrote:But, I think this connection will be spun as further proof of proto-indo-european or some such thing.


Yes, here is the PIE methodology of circumventing such difficult problems such as Sanskrit prefix "su". They just add another syllable to it, and it becomes *h₁esu-, which means that it can split with εὐ, or first part going to the Hellene people, and the rest su remaining with the Indo-Iranic.

One would wonder why some "Aryans" would be using such complex sounds as *h₁esu- for simple things?

If they were however to consider su --> eu, it probably would destroy the whole concept of PIE. I see the Celtics retain "su".

-----

'Surabhi' is mentioned/chanted e.g. in Rig Veda ṛca 4.39.6, so it seems to be a very old sound.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 17:36

Published on Aug 31, 2012
Collected works of Sri Bhakti Ananda Goswami
Bousaala, Goshalla, Boucolic, Gokula, Opis, Gopis, Lucretia, Lakshmi, Rex & Raja

Mother Earth’s Cow Form in Sanskrit is also called BHU or BHUMI and She is clearly the EUROPA BOU Cow-Goddess that is so important in the Cadmus-Danae round of Theban-related European Civilization Foundation Legends. HOR-HAP, ELI-HABHA or SER-APIS the APIS or HAPI Bull is obviously related to EUROPA and the Sanskrit (Vaishnava Vedic and Puranic) SURABHI COW and bull. Thus SURABHI = EUROPA =HERU-HAP (HOR-HAP) = SERAPIS = ELIHABHA etc.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2014 17:51

I would caution against a literal translation of the Rig Veda made by the Jones' of the world . Note that Aurobindo is very sceptical of the crass meaning of Indra rescuing cows

He writes:
But I had already found
that the Vedic cow was an exceedingly enigmatical animal and
came from no earthly herd. The word go means both cow and
light and in a number of passages evidently meant light even
while putting forward the image of the cow. This is clear enough
when we have to do with the cows of the sun — the Homeric
kine of Helios — and the cows of the Dawn. Psychologically,
the physical Light might well be used as a symbol of knowledge
and especially of the divine knowledge.
....
The cow and horse, go and a ́ va, are constantly associated.
Usha, the Dawn, is described as gomat ̄ a ́ vavat ̄; Dawn gives
to the sacrificer horses and cows. As applied to the physical
dawn gomat ̄ means accompanied by or bringing the rays of
light and is an image of the dawn of illumination in the human
mind. Therefore a ́ vavat ̄ also cannot refer merely to the physical
steed; it must have a psychological significance as well. A study
of the Vedic horse led me to the conclusion that go and a ́sva
represent the two companion ideas of Light and Energy, Con-
sciousness and Force, which to the Vedic and Vedantic mind
were the double or twin aspect of all the activities of existence



He further says
the Veda cannot be interpreted by separate passages
or hymns. If it is to have any coherent or consistent meaning,
we must interpret it as a whole. We may escape our difficulties
by assigning to svar or gah entirely different senses in different
passages — just as Sayana sometimes finds in gah the sense of
cows, sometimes rays and sometimes, with an admirable light-
heartedness, compels it to mean waters.

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1806
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 10 Dec 2014 18:17

Thank you saars. Going by this, wonder if there's an Arabic root like "hu" as well? "Humayoon" means "blessed," so that's encouraging. What does "Hudaibiya" actually mean, I wonder? "Allah hu Akbar" is different - "hu" is "is" there.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 10 Dec 2014 18:33

Here is Rajiv Malhotra's rebuttal to some interview given by Aatish Taseer, a "journalist" and "writer".

Here is the interest part

AATISH: Men like him—Malhotra and his cohorts—have poisoned the pool of classical studies. They’re not scholars; few of them have even a passable knowledge of Sanskrit; but they’re determined to shut down serious scholarship, determined to coerce Western academia into telling them the few banalities they want to hear: things that warm their little NRI hearts: the Aryans did not come from elsewhere but sprang up out of the soil of India; Sanskrit is not one of many Indo-European languages, but the mother of all languages…

[Rajiv: 1) Aatish fails to cite even a single instance of my work that would support his personal allegation that I am "determined to shut down serious scholarship". Any scholar worth his salt ought to cite concrete evidence, and not engage in such ad hominem attacks. 2) The italics above are in the original interview - Aatish wants to emphasize that he supports the foreign Aryan theory and attacks me for saying that the "aryas" (there is no such thing as Aryans) have been indigenous to the Indian soil. He is also upset that I consider Sanskrit to be more than "one of many Indo-European languages". The "mother of all languages" motif troubles him greatly when applied to Sanskrit.]

AATISH: Now when you start to refashion the past to fit the needs of the present, you must ask yourself why? Why do I want the past to be one way and not another? Because if you set to work blindly remaking the past, you can do it a lot of harm.

[Rajiv: When my book comes out, I hope that he and his mom, Tavleen, will take the time to go through it, and see that the evidence proves just the opposite: That it is Pollock distorting the hard data of history to fit his modern analysis of Indian society. These novelists/journalists, lacking scholarly competence, will find themselves sandwiched between their support for Pollock-ism and their claim to be pro-Indian civilization. Let thaat debate start after my book comes out.]

AATISH: These monkeys, they want the white man to tell them that India—which Malhotra couldn’t bring himself to live in—was once the greatest country of all. Only then will they go away and let serious people get on with their work.

[Rajiv: Calling me a "monkey" hardly helps the image his mom wants him to have - that of a young, serious thinker. So he thinks that what I am all about is getting the white man to tell us how great we are. But thats not my position at all. I am critical of Indians who are in awe of white men's approval of them. He has not read my works criticizing that tendency among Indians. Rather, it is he and his mom craving white peolpe legitimizing them. Their swooning over Pollock demonstrates this. So who here is the one being the monkey in awe of "the white man"?]

AATISH: It’s sad to see this kind of sloganeer get traction in India—I read the other day in the paper that Delhi University had embarked upon a project to prove the Aryans were not foreigners. Such foolishness! It makes me fearful for India. And these are naturally fears that my novel is very alive to.

[Rajiv: Dismissing me as sloganeer with no specific data point? And this is the state of journalism in India that editors of mainstream media do not bother calling it out as unsubstantiated and as ad hominem attacks? Why such desperation so suddenly? His reference to Delhi University gives the answer. Because places like DU are now starting projects that will evaluate evidence "to prove the Aryans were not foreigners", people like Aatish are deployed to attack those involved. He is worried that now I "get traction in India".]

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5337
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 10 Dec 2014 18:36

What has this got to do with current bunch in Europe calling themselves anything. The same bunch overran Greeks and Romans probably! Conversely, the 'historians' like Protestant Macauley may have written against cow worshiping Hindus and so on and so forth.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2178
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Dec 2014 09:34

Read this beautiful set of Powerpoint slides by Talageri that explains how the OIT model best explains Linguistic Isoglosses! The beauty of his work is that he actively embraced Linguistics and used it to show that OIT best fits the data. Also included below are 3 of his videos (2 demolishing AIT and 1 proposing OIT). These are more easily understandable versions than his books

Step by Step pictures on a map of how OIT migration occurred, based on Linguistics!

Dismantling AIT based on Linguistics

Dismantling AIT based on Rig Vedic Textual evidence & Archaeology

Out of India Theory - Foundations

member_28652
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 38
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_28652 » 12 Dec 2014 07:33

I have been reading Subhash Kak's cradle of civilization. He is corelating Herakles and Dionysos with Krishna and Shiv. Now this is a fascinating export!.

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1806
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 12 Dec 2014 08:59

Such comparisons are good to show the direction of export, but are pretty specious otherwise. I don't know about Dionysos (whoever that was - Trojan war character?) but the concept of Krishna is orders of magnitude more complex than that of Herakles. Krishna, among other things, stands for a fundamental law of nature, that Dharma is destined to triumph over Adharma. Herakles is (so far as I remember) a one-dimensional strongman hero figure - that's his entire personality right there. Comparing him with strongmen from our culture - Bhima is way more complex and charming, and so too is Hanuman.

The western world has been bluffing with an empty hand, to borrow a poker analogy. Their spiritual concepts and philosophies amount to very little, and their entire religious system is stolen from the Middle East. I remember being baffled by one of Spinoza's arguments as to why God had to exist. The argument was silly and contrived, and I was able to win over a friend of mine, who was initially impressed by Spinoza, but who, when I showed the fallacy of the argument, admitted that Spinoza hadn't quite thought the thing through. Time to call the bluff that the west has been perpetrating on the rest of the world for three centuries now.

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1478
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 12 Dec 2014 11:32

^^^Take it for what it is worth - Krishna was a great wrestler along with his brother Balarama. Krishna kills Chanura in a wrestling match before he takes on Kamsa. So he was a strong man in his younger days. It was much later as a more mature man he comes by the internecine feud of the Pandavas and the Kauravas and decides to not fight, but takes the role of a charioteer, as was typical for older warriors. There is more to that comparison by Kak than idle speculation.

member_28652
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 38
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_28652 » 12 Dec 2014 21:31

I agree. Kak paints a very comprehensive picture. It needs a lot more research but I guess he is on the right track.

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1806
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 13 Dec 2014 05:26

Asinh, I have a lot of respect for Kak, and I don't doubt that he'd have done his research. Could you please present some of the points he makes, if it isn't giving away too much?

Pulikeshi, Bhima was a wrestler too. Bhima was the one who wrestled Jarasandha - Krishna and Arjuna prudently stayed away from that contest. Bhima killed Keechaka too, and that was also a wrestling match. I guess that's not the only point of comparison between Herakles and Krishna? Because a lot of Indian figures would match on that wrestling score. I don't know if Kak is comparing the subjugation of the snake Kalia to Herakles slaying the Hydra - that seems like an obvious comparison point, but is again fraught with difficulties.

My point is - it's great to show that the Greek myths are based on Indian concepts, and thus borrowed, but let us (Indians) not take these comparisons too seriously. They're good for academic value, nothing else (IMHO). As the enduring and eternal mother civilization, we don't have to be too concerned about what the daughters and grand daughters copy from us. Kak's purpose is probably different (dispelling the AIT nonsense and instilling a sense of pride in Indians), and I respect that and heartily bow to his efforts in that direction.

BTW, asinh ji, no offence, but your handle sounds like a mathematical function (arc sin hyperbolic :) ).

member_28652
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 38
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_28652 » 13 Dec 2014 06:44

Kak is painting a very broad picture with intriguing snippets thrown in. I don't know if I should start quoting chapter and verse. He is also using archaeo astronomy somewhat on the lines of Nileshji. I discussed a couple of points with him on facebook messenger and he seems fine with it.

Left maths in 12th std with all the parabolas and hi-per bolas and tan thetas. Ancient love for maths showing eh? :rotfl:

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1478
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 13 Dec 2014 07:05

sudarshan wrote:Pulikeshi, Bhima was a wrestler too. Bhima was the one who wrestled Jarasandha - Krishna and Arjuna prudently stayed away from that contest.


Krishna was a much older man then!
You can also notice it is Jarasandha's greatness that he chose to pick the youngest and strongest - Bhima.

<sarc on>
It could have been Ghatotkacha as well! :twisted: :mrgreen: (last post on this issue)

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1806
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 13 Dec 2014 08:02

Pulikeshi wrote:You can also notice it is Jarasandha's greatness that he chose to pick the youngest and strongest - Bhima.


? Arjuna was younger? But yes, I get your point. Jarasandha did pick the most worthy opponent, and that's to his credit.

I don't know if age is such an important point. Herakles must have been pretty old too, when he performed some of his feats. That's the thing with ageless strongmen, remember? Was Herakles older than Antius or not, when he fought and killed Antius? I don't remember. Anyways, it's probably fruitless arguing about this. Kak is doing good work, more power to him, but again, let's maintain some sobriety when we discuss parallels with Greek or Roman myths. They are the lesser faith, because (1) the Indian heritage is far older and (2) the Indian heritage is based on a consistent, comprehensive principle or meme, which shows up in all its varied nuances like a fractal image throughout the Puranas and Upanishads and other stories - the same can't be said of Greek or Roman myths [sarc on]unless you're talking homosexuality (sorry, couldn't resist)[sarc off].

And last but not the least, a little superior attitude on the part of Indians would do the snobbish Euros a world of good, after all the attitude we've been receiving from them for centuries now.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9894
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 13 Dec 2014 12:02

Who is duryodhana's wife? Karnas wife? These two seem to be closer to each other than their wives. Either jigri dosti or platonic homosexuality.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5337
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 13 Dec 2014 19:21

Prem Kumar wrote:Read this beautiful set of Powerpoint slides by Talageri that explains how the OIT model best explains Linguistic Isoglosses! The beauty of his work is that he actively embraced Linguistics and used it to show that OIT best fits the data. Also included below are 3 of his videos (2 demolishing AIT and 1 proposing OIT). These are more easily understandable versions than his books

Step by Step pictures on a map of how OIT migration occurred, based on Linguistics!

Dismantling AIT based on Linguistics

Dismantling AIT based on Rig Vedic Textual evidence & Archaeology

Out of India Theory - Foundations

OT here. Very interesting, Prem Kumar ji, that to prove OIT as Aryan migration theory even as we now know that the Indian horse moved from India all the way to " SURABHI = EUROPA =HERU-HAP (HOR-HAP) = SERAPIS = ELIHABHA etc." - using linguistics that is, and were for centuries, used by Europeans to shove invasion theories under label Aryan.

KLP Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1310
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby KLP Dubey » 15 Dec 2014 15:49

shiv wrote:I would caution against a literal translation of the Rig Veda made by the Jones' of the world . Note that Aurobindo is very sceptical of the crass meaning of Indra rescuing cows


That word of caution is important in order to refute the fake idea of any sort of historical information in the Veda.

However, in the current series of posts the issue is not of history but of comparative mythology.

The fact is that these mythological interpretations of the Rgveda have existed in ancient India as well, and the point here is that the Greeks et al swallowed and copied whatever stories/science-fiction/fantasies the Indians belted out.



Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rajsunder, Shwetank and 32 guests