Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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UlanBatori
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Sep 2017 18:00

Pulikeshi wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Question about how Shiva/Parvati tradition came to be so strong in the south ..

There is nothing to indicate Shiva/Parvati tradition as either North or South - in fact it is all over greater India...


The question is why people in Kampuchea or Indonesia or Madurai would worship a tradition based on mountainous snow and ice. Both Shiva and most certainly Parvati are mountain traditions - particularly snow-capped mountain peaks.
To quote Kalidasa (the only line I remember) from KumArasambhava, SSLC textbook:
TushAra sanghAta shilAtaleshvapi


I can understand if ppl in Kenya/tanzania such as Ms. Lucy Tanzaniwali were to cite that, having strolled past Mr. Kilimanjaro on the way to the Khyber Pass, or Mr. Takahashi Fujimori having seen Mt. Fuji, but I know of no other place in the equatorial zone where there are snow-capped peaks. Maybe Mt. Krakatoa had snow b4 it disappeared in a colossal "Krak!"? Or, maybe the memory is from Mt. Toba, considered a gazillion times bigger explosion (and hence maybe a much taller mountain?)

It has to be an imported/migrated tradition. In Malloostan (TCR) there is actually a tall representation of Shiva (Master of The North, too) built up of successively smaller crescent moons, disappearing into the darkness above. Using ghee, the entire background is a huge peak that is white/beige. Danger of Ghee-Slides is ever-present for the pujaris. Shri Parvati is directly behind the shrine to Shiva, facing the other way: the classic Advaita representation of "Ardha Nareeshvara". (Not the present north-Indian representation of side-by-side!)

Then again, the temple is supposed to be where Adi Sankara spent considerable time doing some of his most extensive writing, so the representation of the Himalaya is not surprising. A low-walled rectangular plot, homage to Sankara represents a simple Shankh and Chakra, side by side. Legend is that this was his Samadhi and it makes sense because that is not a shrine, just these two stone sculptures rising from the ground. (Now they have a more formal shrine with roof and color storyboard etc next to it).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Sep 2017 18:20

Indonesia has had quite a few spectacular volcanic events. See this to get some perspective on today's Global Warming concerns:
Tambora is the only eruption in modern history to rate a VEI of 7. Global temperatures were an average of five degrees cooler because of this eruption; even in the United States, 1816 was known as the “year without a summer.” Crops failed worldwide, and in Europe and the United States an unexpected outcome was the invention of the bicycle as horses became too expensive to feed.

This sort of stuff must have generated quite a tradition of worshipping mountains. Surprising that Himalayan/Tibetan tradition has no volcanos. Or is the origin of the Shiva Tandava precisely that?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 Sep 2017 19:58

UlanBatori wrote:The question is why people in Kampuchea or Indonesia or Madurai would worship a tradition based on mountainous snow and ice. Both Shiva and most certainly Parvati are mountain traditions - particularly snow-capped mountain peaks.
To quote Kalidasa (the only line I remember) from KumArasambhava, SSLC textbook:
TushAra sanghAta shilAtaleshvapi


Yak herder I have been doing some independent research which will get added to a book - eventually. But the latest push is because Nilesh Oak put me in touch with an Indology conf in Chennai which I hope to attend if my paper gets selected

It turns out that there is a fairly good chance that the Vedas which mention Shiva as Rudra date back to something like 6-8000 BC. I will not bother going into the details of why but will just say that there is (long word coming now) "paleobotanical" evidence that the weather in the latitudes of northern India was evergreen forest in the 12000 -10000 BC era such as seen in temperate zones now. A few thousand years later the zone became "tropical rain forest" like we have now in Arunachal Pradesh (and other parts of India) and the far east. This included the Saraswati river region. Tropical rain forest is not evergreen and depends on heavy seasonal rainfall . Later (after 5000 BC) the Rajasthan/Gujarat/Saraswati area became arid.

The point is that snow and mountains would have been much closer to southern people in India and the far east about 10,000 years ago because it was nearing the end of the ice age at a time when Europe was unlivable.

As an aside - there is a group of languages including the "Munda" language in India. Munda speakers have genes that probably originated in the far east. Munda speakers have a Vedic tradition of considering Asuras as evil enemies.

Just sayin..

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Sep 2017 23:07

Sarkar, A. et al. Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization. Sci. Rep. 6, 26555; doi: 10.1038/srep26555 (2016).
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep26555

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2017 08:02

A_Gupta wrote:Sarkar, A. et al. Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization. Sci. Rep. 6, 26555; doi: 10.1038/srep26555 (2016).
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep26555

Very nice. Thanks. This adds to the growing body of evidence showing that by 7000 BC there were early "pre-urban" settlements with domesticated cattle and farming and a roaring Saraswati river. It also fits in with the other paper of paleobotanical evidence I cited earlier
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 7909424976

The finding of deer bones indicates a few things. Deer tend to live at forest edges and just inside forests. This was the environment in the 10,000 ybp to 8000 ybp era. Deer hunting is an established activity in epics like the Ramayana and Mahabharata, but Manusmriti also recommends that student's (studying the Vedas) should wear deer skins. Mature Harappan had cotton cloth. So much for 1500 BC Vedas

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShauryaT » 02 Sep 2017 22:41

No cultural displacement or break in Indian history for at least 10,000 years
India’s archaeological record in the northwest has unbroken continuity going back to about 7500 BCE at Mehrgarh (Kenoyer, 1998; Lal, 2002), and it has a rock art tradition, next only to that of Australia and Africa in abundance, that is much older (Pandey, 1993; Bednarik, 2000). Some rock art has been assigned to the Upper Paleolithic period. There is surprising uniformity, both in style and content, in the rock art paintings of the Mesolithic period (10,000 – 2500 BCE) (Tyagi, 1992; Wakankar, 1992).

The archaeological phases of the Indus (or Sindhu-Sarasvati) tradition have been divided into four eras: early food-producing era (c.6500- 5000 BCE), regionalization era (5000 – 2600 BCE), integration era (2600 – 1900 BCE), and localization era (1900 – 1300 BCE) (Shaffer, 1992).

The archaeological record, suggesting that this river had turned dry by1900 BCE, indicates that the Ṛgveda is prior to this epoch. The Ṛgveda and other early Vedic literature have astronomical references related to the shifting astronomical frame that indicate epochs of the fourth and third millennium BCE which is consistent with the hydrological evidence. The nakṣatra lists are found in the Vedas, either directly or listed under their presiding deities, and one may conclude that their names have not changed. Vedic astronomy used a luni-solar year in which an intercalary month was employed as adjustment with solar year.

The shifting of seasons through the year and the shifting of the northern axis allow us to date several statements in the Vedic books (Sastry, 1985). Thus the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa (2.1.2.3) has a statement that points to an earlier epoch where it is stated that the Kṛttikā (Pleiades) never swerve from the east. This corresponds to 2950 BCE. The Maitrāyaṇīya Brāhmaṇa Upaniṣad (6.14) refers to the winter solstice being at the mid-point of the Śraviṣṭhā segment and the summer solstice at the beginning of Maghā. This indicates 1660 BCE. The Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa mentions that winter solstice was at the beginning of Śraviṣṭhā and the summer solstice at the mid-point of Āśleṣā. This corresponds to about 1300 BCE.
The nakṣatras in the Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa are defined to be 27 equal parts of the ecliptic. The nakṣatra list of the late Vedic period begin with Kṛttikā (Pleiades) whereas that of the astronomy texts after 200 CE begin with Ashvini (α and β Arietis), indicating a transition through 2 nakṣatras, or a time span of about 2,000 years.

The foundation of Vedic cosmology is the notions of bandhu (homologies or binding between the outer and the inner). In the Āyurveda, medical system associated with the Vedas, the 360 days of the year were taken to be mapped to the 360 bones of the developing fetus, which later fuse into the 206 bones of the person. It was estimated correctly that the sun and the moon were approximately 108 times their respective diameters from the earth (perhaps from the discovery that the angular size of a pole removed 108 times its height is the same as that of the sun and the moon), and this number was used in sacred architecture. The distance to the sanctum sanctorum of the temple from the gate and the perimeter of the temple were taken to be 54 and 180 units, which are one-half each of 108 and 360 (Kak, 2005a). Homologies at many levels are at the basis of the idea of recursion, or repetition in scale and time. The astronomical basis of the Vedic ritual was the reconciliation of the lunar and solar years (Kak, 2000a; Kak, 2000b).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Sep 2017 06:50

UlanBatori wrote:
The question is why people in Kampuchea or Indonesia or Madurai would worship a tradition based on mountainous snow and ice. Both Shiva and most certainly Parvati are mountain traditions - particularly snow-capped mountain peaks.


If you drift is that there is a thread of migration that could be surmised from the diffusion of Shiva/Parvati tradition - I must confess ignorance on any academic attempt to do the same... definetly something worth consideration...

My readings suggest that these diffusions occurred at multiple time periods in various directions via various traditions and it gets even more difficult if one were to consider every phallic symbol found all the way to Ireland/UK on one side and on the other side into Australia.

Enjoy recent article on Ganesha - Japan, Tibet, Thailand: How Lord Ganesha is celebrated outside India

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Dipanker » 07 Sep 2017 03:17

SriJoy wrote:
shiv wrote:Primus this is not the first guy to poop on this thread series. There was a guy who did it in the first iteration of this thread as well. There is something about the topic that makes some people want to fight desperately against the weight of opinion being expressed here. There is a common factor between the earlier troll and this guy - and that is a modicum of awareness of issues, ready made answers, excellent ability at pointless rhetoric and generally good angrezi. I notice that pure rhetoric to push bullshit is a hallmark of stalwarts like Witzel, David Antony, Wendy Doniger etc. I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theories but I think these trolls are not individuals acting alone - there is some background sponsorship or motivating factor. Just my thoughts. Both trolls spent way too much effort is trying to take down arguments - but Srijoy is louder and cruder, and overall less capable and depends more on Wiki type sources.


Because the 'weight of opinion' being presented here, is unqualified, unsupported opinion, all converging on aggrandizing of Indian history by Indians, a common phenomena amongst every culture amongst its conservative nationalists.

the only 'troll' here, are people who are arguing that legions of historians are wrong and all first hand sources are wrong, so that Indian history can reflect Indian mythology about 'super duper ancient India before anyone else'.


+1
Agreed.

Not that we should not be proud of our heritage, but "Satyamev Jayate" is also our heritage.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 07 Sep 2017 03:46

I am wading into the silly stuff here with trepediations :(( :((

about Chinese history-- it is not true about general lineage of kings. :lol:
The story in short is commies have given the historical lineage. Others like westerners cannot challenge it as they control the sources of Chinese literature. china was not colonised completely as India was .

WRT India the issue is loss of control of Indian narrative. westerners have screwed up the Indian history.
we don't have strong Indian chronology. whatever is present is made sure is negated by westerners for their own agenda.

The strongest proponents of this agenda are the commies and sickulars to the detriment of locals in India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2017 10:48

SriJoy wrote:
Because the 'weight of opinion' being presented here, is unqualified, unsupported opinion, all converging on aggrandizing of Indian history by Indians, a common phenomena amongst every culture amongst its conservative nationalists.

the only 'troll' here, are people who are arguing that legions of historians are wrong and all first hand sources are wrong, so that Indian history can reflect Indian mythology about 'super duper ancient India before anyone else'.

Actually what ultimately goes down in history is not what actually happened but what the people who kept or modified the records said. And yes we (not you) are conspirators doing exactly that. You are in a minority and in the medium term your views will be forgotten and discarded. That is what I love about history. What you feel about this does not matter. Relax, have a Charminar and come back in a week :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 07 Sep 2017 16:50

^^^>>>Just like how when it comes to engineering, i will overrule 99% people here officially

Did I just actually see this...as my former GHQ with poor English used to say: "Somebody bite me" (referring to a mosquito bite, instead of something bit me).

That's communist-level confidence there macha!!!

Plus, aren't you an amateur historian like everybody else (I think) here?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 07 Sep 2017 17:41

Shiv, how history is literally erased:
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogs ... ry-in.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 07 Sep 2017 18:36

^^^>>>Just like how when it comes to engineering, i will overrule 99% people here officially

:rotfl: From what I have learned over the years about members on this forum, there is no way you're going to overrule 99% of them officially in engineering. 9.9% - maybe. In any case, you know nothing about anybody or their backgrounds on this anonymous forum, so I suggest you lay off the bragging and attempts to intimidate. Learn to make your points some other way.

I do agree that you can overrule 99.9% of the members here in bragging about yourself. You don't see anybody else here bragging about their credentials, do you? I suspect that if they did, you'd be hard put to keep up.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2017 19:32

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, how history is literally erased:
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogs ... ry-in.html


There are many other examples including the rejection of Ctesias' work.

But that aside - the amount of literature that was put out in the last 150-200 years is so large that it is not al all difficult to locate stuff that historians have ignored and simply propagated what one person or wrote. The example closest to my interest is the misuse of the Vedas by translations of Max Muller as compared to translations by Aurobindo, Kashyap and Vidyarthi.(which range from the 1800s to 2010) I am using these currently to point out what has been done.

The other thing is that because the average volume produced from say 1850 to 1900 was typically verbose and ran into multiple hundreds of pages - even the "historians" have not read all of them or have not read them thoroughly and have left out or ignored details which can be dug out now. Many of those volumes have been digitized but the character recognition is poor and so they need to be read physically.

The third point is about assumptions and fudging that were based on racist ideas and ideas of Christian/western supremacy that have become mainstream because they have not been important enough for western and western trained desi historians to look at or revise. The field that is opening up is exciting.

Like I said earlier my thrust has been to depend as far as possible on texts from western authors which have been used to write history and critically examine the arguments that have been used to reach some conclusion or other and compare them with other similar authors. Some are hilarious in their shoddiness especially something written by David Anthony (Horse, Wheel and Language). In fact I am tempted to make a video of that - an AIT bashing video using some of that information.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2017 22:10

SriJoy wrote:When the ancients themselves wrote 'this guy is a hack', we become skeptical.

Please produce evidence that the ancients were not lying. Most of Ctesias' work was destroyed by those same people and only fragmentary evidence and third party references to Ctesias exist. They did not leave behind proof that could be verified by later people. Some historians they were. And you admire these jerks? LOL How about puttin your money where your mouth is o great degree holding engineer historian and show us the evidence.

And guess what - like all the other stuff you said you would show - you will once again produce nothing. That is what the nakshatras tell me and I betcha they will be right yet again :D Except maybe some long verbose posts with your CV in them. Oh by the way - your CV did not say what this "history degree" you have is called. This is the exact level of accuracy and detail I have come to reliably and unfailingly expect from historians and their tall claims. I can now believe that you are a true historian.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2017 22:43

SriJoy wrote:of course no such evidence exists.

Precisely. That is all that is needed from you. There is no evidence at all that Ctesias was a liar other than the claims of people who destroyed his work. The rest of your post is fluff - the sort of fluff used as justification by historians when they are clearly bluffing and trying to dodge it when caught.

Some of what remains could be accurate and certainly some of it is more accurate than Herodotus ants that mine gold in India :rotfl:
I tell ya historians are a laugh - in the way they take themselves so seriously

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 07 Sep 2017 23:03

>>Diodorus Siculus and Arrian (the latter is by far, the most dispassionate telling of history we have from that era)

Regarding Arrian, is it your personal assessment?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 07 Sep 2017 23:24

SriJoy wrote:Way to miss the point. I work under the assumption that in a given coitierie of people, the majority are not engineers/doctors. Did you forget the part where i also said Shiv can overrule 99.9% here on medical matters, or was that too a brag ?


And I'm telling you the assumption is invalid. Since the assumption is invalid to begin with, I don't have to address the rest of your argument (this is your statement, not mine).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 07 Sep 2017 23:41

Hmmm...because Arrian's history of Alexander came 300-400 years after the fact, and was based on as far as I know a currently unavailable recounting by Ptolemy and Aristobolus. And his speculation on Alexander's reasons for doing things are not exactly based on who told him what. Plus, he wrote in ancient Greek (in both Attic and Ionic dialects), which were later translated by the Brits (as far as I know), and that is the version I presume you are referring to as being "the most dispassionate" - unless you are fluent in the Attic and Ionic dialects of ancient Greek.

Secondly, anyone today reading the English translation of his Indika (based on the work of the same name by Megasthenes and Eratosthenes), will immediately have to take a step back because the translation and name associations in it (for instance) are nothing short of startling unless one just wants to believe because some old white guy with a reputation said it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 08 Sep 2017 01:53

SriJoy wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
The issue is not when the Yuan dynasty ended, but when it started. Vedveer Arya gives the dates from 619 CE - 1368 CE.


And Vedveer Arya is wrong. because Yuan dynasty did not end in 1368 CE. We have writings from tamerlane, where he is planning invasion of Ming China to put the Yuan as titular head (just like how Chagatai khan was titular head of timurid empire). its all there. Yuan dynasty cannot be from 619 CE because we have tang records, we have detailed account of Marco Polo, who had interactions with Kublai, Genghis Khan's grandson. Vedveer Arya is cooking up falsehood after falsehood that is easy to dismiss.


Marco Polo does not belong to 13th century at all, but to the 7th century, and this is me talking and not Vedveer Arya. Why do you think historians have always doubted the veracity of Il Milone?!

There is a lot more to this, but I'll leave it for a paper, for another time.

SriJoy wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Are you now promoting the notion that the Chinese had no astronomy or that they did not know how to observe and record solar eclipses, alignment of planets, etc.?


Nope. Except such references are not made in Chinese recording of dates.


Ha ha. Go read up then! There are loads of solar eclipses recorded in Chinese history! If you can't find on your own, you can always read Vedveer Arya's article.

SriJoy wrote:Yes, i have. I have emphatically proven that Ashoka is from 200s BC. Pick what source you would like and i will supply the said authorative study.


In fact, the Yavana kings mentioned in Asoka's rock edicts, have an extremely dubious mapping to Macedonian-Greek kings which followed Seleucus. For one thing, one wonders why would Ashoka be talking about some non-entity small time little king of Libya. Also there is quite some controversy about the dates of these kings, when are they to be considered contemporary to Ashoka, and that too, all at the same time. One only need to scrape the surface and one knows just how hollow and fragile these mappings really are.

Perhaps another interesting observation is that Greek sources are completely silent on Ashoka. There is nothing on him! Why is that? Wasn't he a neighbor, friend, adversary to all those "Greek" kingdoms?

If you want to do some serious repudiation of Vedveer Arya's claims, then you can take the two papers, read them and show why his alternative explanations are wrong!


If I wanted to know what current thinking is on these matters, then some of it I already know, and the rest is easily accessible on the net or libraries. I don't really need you to tell me about the current thinking.

When you come out of your Macaulayite brainwashing and wish to do some serious discussion, rather than regurgitate old school arguments, which Vedveer Arya has already shown as conflicting, then do write!

Interesting would be if you can show his list of conflicting claims by today's historians as not-conflicting. Instead right now you are simply reading me the Qu'ran!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 08 Sep 2017 05:36

Rakhi Garhi DNA results to be out next Week ?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2017 06:49


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2017 09:24

"(In)Credible historian" Herodotus writing about India - and this guy is given the status of the Grand Poobah (PBUH) of historiography
http://www.thenagain.info/Classes/Sourc ... India.html
Here, in this desert, there live amid the sand great ants, in size somewhat less than dogs, but bigger than foxes. The Persian king has a number of them, which have been caught by the hunters in the land whereof we are speaking. Those ants make their dwellings under ground, and like the Hellene ants, which they very much resemble in shape, throw up sand-heaps as they burrow. Now the sand which they throw up is full of gold.
<snipsnip>
When the Indians reach the place where the gold is, they fill their bags with the sand, and ride away at their best speed: the ants, however, scenting them, as the Persians say, rush forth in pursuit. Now these animals are, they declare, so swift, that there is nothing in the world like them, if it were not, therefore, that the Indians get a start while the ants are mustering, not a single gold-gatherer could escape. :D


Herodotus Book III- Indians eat their parents but will not burn them
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... ok_03.html
When Darius was king, he summoned the Greeks who were with him and asked them for what price they would eat their fathers' dead bodies. They answered that there was no price for which they would do it. [4] Then Darius summoned those Indians who are called Callatiae, who eat their parents, and asked them
:eek: AllahoHerodotus!

"Credible historian" Herodotus
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... tml#89_107
These Indians whom I have described have intercourse openly like cattle; they are all black-skinned, like the Ethiopians. [2] Their semen too, which they ejaculate into the women, is not white like other men's, but black like their skin, and resembles in this respect that of the Ethiopians. These Indians dwell far away from the Persians southwards, and were not subjects of King Darius.



Here is one chap Andrew Nichols- who has done a dissertation of Ctesias who has the gumption to compare Ctesias the pariah with Herodotus the prophet (PBUH)

But download the paper and read it. This is what I call proper research. It is very good and shows the kind of dogma that is being peddled as history without re examination of several centuries of bluffing by LOL "historians"

http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/0 ... hols_a.pdf
F45) [Ctesias] says about the Indus River that it is forty stades wide at its narrowest
point and two hundred at its widest: Cf. F45a; the width of the Indus River, by Ctesias’
calculations, would have ranged from 7-35 km. The narrowest point of the lower Indus in
modern times is at Sukkur in Pakistan where in 1932 the British completed a barrage across
the river which had a length of nearly 1.6 km. The actual width of the river would be no
more than 20 stades, however Ctesias’ exgerrated claims may stem from an observation of
the river when flooded beyond its banks (cf. Arora 1996 p. 20-21). During flood season
(July-September) the river can be several miles wide, although in modern times embankents
often prevent flooding.
the Indians: It should be noted that the ‘Indians’ discussed by the early Greek authors were
for the most part not within the realm of Sanskrit culture (cf. Kartunnen 1991 p. 83 n. 50).
What the Greeks called ‘India’ actually refers to the northwestern territory of the country
around the Indus (from which the country gets its name) in mostly what is now Pakistan (cf.
Kartunnen 1989 p. 7).
the population of the Indians is nearly greater than the rest of the world combined:
Herodotus (5.3) simply says that the Indians are the most populous nation on earth. While
both authors are in agreement about the magnitude of the Indian population, Ctesias makes
his assessment of the Indian population in a more emphatic and exaggerated manner than his
predecesor. This passage offers a glimpse into the dramatic style of Ctesias’ writing showing
how he sought to entertain and amaze his audience (See Introducton).
the only animal to live in it: Hdt. (4.44) states more accurately that the Indus is the world’s
second largest producer of crocodiles. It is possible that Ctesias’ worm is actually a fantastic
interpretation of the crocodile, however he is more likely describing a serpent influenced by
Indian beliefs (see note on §46). It is evident by is use of the term ‘animal’ (θηρίων) that
Ctesias is not including fish in this statement but rather he is only referring to the lack of
other types of ferocious beasts (cf. Lenfant 2004 p. 171 n. 780).
no men live beyond India: The Greeks viewed India as the end of the inhabited world (cf.
Kartunnen 1989 p. 157). Herodotus (3.98) also claims that India is the furthest east of any
known nation and that to the east of them is nothing but dessert. The testimony of these
authors seemes to be geographically based on the Thar in modern Pakistan which lies to the
west of the Indus (cf. Lenfant 2004 p. CXXXVIII-CXXXIX and p. 291 n. 781).


Ctesias:
It does not rain but India is irrigated by the river:

Actually the Oxus river is fed from snow-melt from the Pamirs in a rain poor area

Introduction for a full discussion on Ctesias’ sources).
the wall-destroying elephants: Cf. F45bα; F1b §16.4 and note; F48a and b with note;
Although 18th century scholars often cited this comment as evidence for the unreliability of
Ctesias, his decription of the elephant was remarkably accurate (cf. Kartunnen 1980 p. 106).
There is ample evidence in Indian sources to indicate that elephants were in fact used to tear
down fortification walls, which were often made of wood (cf. Megasth. FGrH 715 F17;
whose testimony is confirmed by archaeological finds in Page 1930 p. 135-140) . In the
Samgāmāvacarajātaka, for example, there is a description of an elephant breaking apart the
gates of Benares and in the Arthašāstra elephants are used to attack fortresses. Despite his
criticisms of Ctesias (see F48a and F48b), it is clear that even Aristotle used him extensively
in his treatment of the elephant (659a2; cf. Scullard 1974 p. 37), much of which is accurate
(see the excellent discussion of Bigwood 1993a). While it is clear that Ctesias gave a
detailed description of the elephant (see the greater detail in F45bα), little of his account
survives, probably because after the campaigns of Alexander and into the Roman period
elephants ceased to be a source of amazement.


It can converse like a human: The species of parakeet being described here may be the
plum-headed parakeet (psittacula cyanocephala). The male of the species has mostly green
(of varying shades) plummage but has a red patch (‘like cinnebar’) on its upper wing, a
narrow black collar that leads to a black stripe under the beak (‘a black beard’). Its head is a
deep red (‘crimson face’) tinged with purple on the lower cheek and back of the neck (‘dark
blue as far as the neck’). For a full discussion see Bigwood 1993b p. 324-327. The accuracy
with which Ctesias describes this bird indicates that he likely saw one in person. The fact the
the bird ‘can speak Greek’ was probably the result of the bird mimicing Ctesias himself.
That it speaks ‘Indian’ may indicate that the bird was brought to the court by an Indian
traveller, rather than a Persian or Bactrian merchant who had interacted with the Indians. As
such, this pasage provides valuable insight into the sources of Ctesias for the Indika. We
know elswhere that he had seen several Indians at the court, so he likely obtained some of his
testimony directly from Indians (See Introduction for full discussion on Ctesias sources).


239-240).
The dogs in India: These dogs were famous in antiquity and were kept in various parts of
the Near East (cf. Hdt. 1.192; see also 7.187 where we are told Xerxes took them with his
army). Their size and courage are well attested in both Greek and Indian sources. There is a
description in the Ramayana (2.64.21) of huge dogs with fangs like spears and the strength
and courage of tigers. Comparisons such as this, although common, may have resulted in
confusion for the Greeks leading Aristotle (H.A. 8.28 607a4; cf. G.A. 746a34) to claim that
the Indian dog is a hybrid of a dog and a tiger (it is unclear if he is using a source other than
Ctesias). However, there is evidence to support the assertion that these dogs fought with
lions. Sopeithes, an Indian king, gave Alexander a gift of Indian dogs and demonstrated their
prowress by having them fight a lion (Diod. 17.92). In Indian literature, the Mācala dogs of
the Vidarbha country were said to have the ability to kill tigers (JB 2.442) and in the
Mahābhārata (2.37.8) a pack of hunting dogs is seen attacking a sleeping lion.

There lives in India a beast called the martichora: CF. F45dα-δ; Believed to be derived
from OP martiya- (‘man’) and khordeh (‘eating’) (cf. McCrindle 1881 p. 298 n. 25; see also
Avest. khwar- ‘eat’) – cf. Modern Persian mard-kwār as a designation for the tiger. The
Near Eastern root indicates that Ctesias likely received his information from a Persian source
(cf. Arora 1991 p. 90) or at least through a Persian interpreter (F45dβ seems to indicate an
Indian source; perhaps the interpreter simply translated the phrase man-eater into Persian
rather than give the exact Indian phrase). Since antiquity this creature has been identified
with the tiger (cf. F45dγ). Although some have rejected this identification and seen the beast
as pure fantasy (cf. Lassen 1874 vol. 2 p. 652), most accept it as plausible (see for example
Bigwood 1964 p. 74-75). In fact, many of the attributes ascribed to the martichora can be
discerned in the tiger. For instance, at the tip of the tail is a small dermal protrusion like a
nail which is seen as the basis for the stinger of the martichora (although Ctesias would have
seen one with the stinger already crushed – cf. F45d β). The tiger’s whiskers are seen by
natives of India as harmful and are removed from tiger hides when hunted (they are also
believed to endow someone with power over the opposite sex). Unlike ruminants and
equines, the carniverous molar of the tiger has three lobes thus giving rise to the belief that
the martichora had three rows of teeth (cf. Ball 1885 p. 280-281). Ctesias likely accepted his
informant’s statement that it had a human face since this is a matter of opinion and we do not
know how close he was able to get to the animal’s cage (cf. Kartunnen 1991 p. 79).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby svenkat » 08 Sep 2017 11:02

I hope learned mullahs dont mind this distraction.

Subhash Kak‏ @subhashkak1
Zoroastrians call their original land Airyana Vaeja and the Sanskrit texts call it Aryavarta. http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroas ... avaeja.htm …

The names Eire (Ireland) and Iran are from Arya, which remembers the original land of Greater India from where these people moved West.

Rajesh Raina‏
@rajesh_raina

King, old Cyng are derived from Singh. Simha. No lion ever found in Europe. Indians continued to call ruler Cyng when they migrated west.

Subhash Kak‏ @subhashkak1
Subhash Kak Retweeted Rajesh Raina
Most interesting theory: King (old form, cyningg; German König) = Sanskrit Singh, सिंह. "As leon is the king of bested." John Gower, 1390

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Sep 2017 22:06

Shiv: I happened to read that article as well today.

Stunning similarities between the Slavic languages/cultures and Sanskrit!

One is amazed at the perversion of the Western mind. Tries to paint the most tolerant religion as the most violent. Portrays the mother of civilization (biggest source) as the youngest one (biggest recipient). Calls the most violent religion as the one of love.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 09 Sep 2017 02:35

shiv wrote:<snip>
Here is one chap Andrew Nichols- who has done a dissertation of Ctesias who has the gumption to compare Ctesias the pariah with Herodotus the prophet (PBUH)


https://rajivmalhotra.com/books/indras- ... chapter-8/

With Indra's Net Rajiv Malhotra actually gave publicity to this Nicholson without knowing that actually Nicholson had plagiarised the book from an Indian during his desseration thesis.
This came to light when RM was accused of plagiarism from the usual anti RM folks. :rotfl:

In fact Andrew Nicholson gained popularity due to his being quoted by RM ironically. :lol:

But post plagiarism charges which boomranged massively on him, he has kept quiet.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 09 Sep 2017 03:24

SriJoy wrote: <snip>

Again, Chinese history- atleast, their king list- has undergone only minor changes (+/- couple of years for a couple of Emperors/kings, which is normal), since the era of Qianlong Emperor- i.e., late 1700s AD. Its not like the Chinese dynasty list from 1800s is radically different from the 1950s onwards. It is not. ( china has same language for centuries with some change but not a whole lot. most if the Chinese are of same stock, no outsiders of different race stayed for considerable length of time to muck the history)

As for 'evil western historians'- has it ever struck any of you- how unlikely a 'grand conspiracy of history' is, between every single historian in the west, japan, China, etc- especially considering that the historian who exposes this fraud instantly becomes the richest and most prominent historian of his/her time in the world ???
( can pipe down a little- there are some controversies but not germane to this thread)
Sorry, i have no time for biassed conspiracies. Only for first hand records and as someone else said- Satyameva Jayate.

Only reason the hack jobs here are pi$$ed off, is because they are dealing with someone (me), who has decades of learning history and formal history education under his belt- hence they are angry that i can call them out on BS claims, such as entire history of the world being faked and none-the wiser, except a so-called non-professional like Vedveer Arya (who is a civil servant, with less history education than me- a part timer- never mind actual professionals). Which is why there are individuals here who are intimidated by knowledge and instead, make ridiculous claims of 'no one can know as much'. Ironically, what i know, may be 100x the combined historical knowledge possessed by these irridentists, but my own knowledge is like 10-20% of what a history professor should have.

these folks are conspiracy-selling hack-jobs, which the world has seen for decades.looking to make a quick buck by distorting history for popular consumption.


About the bolded part is fully BS.
Example-
I am a lowly hakim in my profession. I routinely discard suggestions of other specialities if their view does not help the patient or looks absurd. I have done it to professors, many senior doctors strictly based on clinical aspects without any ego or personal issues with them. But some biggies se a threat to their authority and ego. I have had compliants to higher authorities by these oiseaules so called profs and specilaity folks who claim knalidge in their subject being bested routinely by me. The authorities know me well. Also I have the backing of having some of the best reviews by patients which is usually handy to beat the power and pelf of these specialities.

I normally don't say these but I am forced to now. :(( :((

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2017 06:50

krisna wrote:
shiv wrote:<snip>
Here is one chap Andrew Nichols- who has done a dissertation of Ctesias who has the gumption to compare Ctesias the pariah with Herodotus the prophet (PBUH)


https://rajivmalhotra.com/books/indras- ... chapter-8/

With Indra's Net.

Interesting but this guy is Andrew D Nichols of the U of Florida, not Nicholson

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2017 07:28

krisna wrote:
SriJoy wrote:Only reason the hack jobs here are pi$$ed off, is because they are dealing with someone (me), who has decades of learning history and formal history education under his belt- hence they are angry that i can call them out on BS claims, such as entire history of the world being faked and none-the wiser, except a so-called non-professional like Vedveer Arya (who is a civil servant, with less history education than me- a part timer- never mind actual professionals). Which is why there are individuals here who are intimidated by knowledge and instead, make ridiculous claims of 'no one can know as much'. Ironically, what i know, may be 100x the combined historical knowledge possessed by these irridentists, but my own knowledge is like 10-20% of what a history professor should have.



About the bolded part is fully BS.
Example-
I am a lowly hakim in my profession. I routinely discard suggestions of other specialities if their view does not help the patient or looks absurd. I have done it to professors, many senior doctors strictly based on clinical aspects without any ego or personal issues with them. But some biggies se a threat to their authority and ego. I have had compliants to higher authorities by these oiseaules so called profs and specilaity folks who claim knalidge in their subject being bested routinely by me. The authorities know me well. Also I have the backing of having some of the best reviews by patients which is usually handy to beat the power and pelf of these specialities.

I normally don't say these but I am forced to now. :(( :((


:lol: Thanks for saying it but it was a mistake saying it to this guy. He will come up with a long rant in response.

I was reminded by the man's boasting of a sports director in college who happened to have a degree in law. Every time we cornered him in an argument he would say. "You can't argue with me, I hold a law degree"

The most hypocritical statement of comes from this sentence:
SriJoy wrote:Sorry, i have no time for biassed conspiracies. Only for first hand records and as someone else said- Satyameva Jayate.


Clearly he has the time and motivation to come on here, read and rant. Something upsets him a great deal and his objections are mainly about the motivations of people, their ignorance and his own qualifications. He has made at least four promises to produce facts and data and now I know that these will not come.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vnms » 09 Sep 2017 07:35

This dude, SriJoy, claims that he has "has decades of learning history and formal history education under his belt".

So, after spending decades in the field of studying history, did he go back to college and get his engineering degree and move into the software field?

I'm confused onlee.

PS: It might be unpopular here, but I really pity this dude. He is the perfect metaphor for the saying:
"Dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka, na ghat ka".

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Sep 2017 17:40

What is going on with Rakhigarhi aDNA?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 431875.cms
LUCKNOW: The mystery surrounding the origin of the Indus valley population and reconstructing the history of Harappa will be possible with the Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeosciences (BSIP) all set to conduct research on prehistoric DNA. In a first, the institute is setting up an ancient DNA laboratory.

Earlier, the institute had found through research that ostrich lived in India 25,000 years ago. Now, palaeo-scientists would be researching on the DNA of 20 skeletons procured from Rakhigarhi and Farmana in Harappa. The institute will officially declare setting up of the ancient DNA laboratory on its foundation day on September 10. The lab would also be the first in South Asia to study DNA of the prehistoric age.

"The institute has a rare collection of some of the oldest grains from the Gangetic plains and rare archaeological sites. Ancient DNA analysis may lead to major discovery in the field of palaeosciences," said BSIP director Sunil Bajpai.
The institute will first conduct DNA study of the 20 skeletons from the Harappan site followed by that of horses, rice grains from Gangetic plains and grains from Harappan sites. "DNA study of the earbone and teeth of the 20 skeletons will be conducted. These skeletons were collected by the BSIP after excavation from two of the oldest Harappan sites," said scientist Niraj Rai.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Sep 2017 18:50

Hahaha, for a bunch of guys who study history, you should try learning from it. I turned on "ignore" on SriJoy weeks ago, and need only suffer him in other folks' quotes of him.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 09 Sep 2017 20:10

shiv wrote:

Interesting but this guy is Andrew D Nichols of the U of Florida, not Nicholson


Thanks, my mistake.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 09 Sep 2017 20:11

A_Gupta wrote:Hahaha, for a bunch of guys who study history, you should try learning from it. I turned on "ignore" on SriJoy weeks ago, and need only suffer him in other folks' quotes of him.


sorry but do pity you :(( :mrgreen:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krisna » 09 Sep 2017 20:26

Might be OT to some extent

About China history, it is good major parts are non controversial at least some form of evidence- reasons are simple-- same language for centuries with not much little change . No large scale invasions and destruction except for brief periods from ulanbatorji yaks who grazed beyond their confines of their land. Hence no large scale distortion of history.
Recall similarly the period of Indian history. lot of destruction, rewriting of history by invaders.
Indians have devised ways of preserving its history through temples and its intricate carvings, symbols of beyone eras, poetries, baallads , different forms of dramas like yakshaganas, dance forms like kuchipudi, bhartanatyam and myriad other features. They have been refined and honed over time spanning centuries.
In fcat people say even if current form of Hinduism as is known is destroyed it has seeds of revival due to the redundancies built inot the system aas in above. History iss intermixed into all these.

Despite large scale destruction of Indian libarries and educational institutions by both Christian and Islamic invaders and rewriting their history superimposed on Indian ones, still there is some spark about olden times.
Due to this and the overwhelming presence of anti Indian forces ruling for long time , things have not been alright overall. I have to appreciate the ingenuity of our forefathers that despite such large scale destruction, they had the brilliance to have some form of history stored in various forms.


Recall European history-- large scale destruction of europe by Christianity made sure the history of pre chirstian times is completely erased from memory and in all forms. only we have vetsiges like Christmas tree, and few others disgested into christianity

Recall Arab history- not much is known about pre Islamic origins due to large scale destruction by islamists.

Recall American history-- large scale destruction by Christians resulted in less history known about pre 1400s life of orginal americans in both Americas.

Hence china is lucky in many ways .

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Sep 2017 20:44

A_Gupta wrote:What is going on with Rakhigarhi aDNA?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 431875.cms
LUCKNOW: The mystery surrounding the origin of the Indus valley population and reconstructing the history of Harappa will be possible with the Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeosciences (BSIP) all set to conduct research on prehistoric DNA. In a first, the institute is setting up an ancient DNA laboratory.

Earlier, the institute had found through research that ostrich lived in India 25,000 years ago. Now, palaeo-scientists would be researching on the DNA of 20 skeletons procured from Rakhigarhi and Farmana in Harappa. The institute will officially declare setting up of the ancient DNA laboratory on its foundation day on September 10. The lab would also be the first in South Asia to study DNA of the prehistoric age.


What's the background story of this institute? Seems like it was started as a PaleoBotany institute -
What's the interest in ancient animal/human DNA? Is this something supported/funded by DST in India?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Sep 2017 21:30

SriJoy wrote:Your type of distortions will remain 'fringe historical fiction' until - if- your type of people manage to utterly destroy the academic system we have in place and revert to ignorant religious rantings of cavemen and taking those on face-value. the world we live in, you, Nilesh, this Vedveer guy etc. will only ever matter on this topic, over the internet. In official setting, i will overrule all of you- because i have an actual degree in this topic and you guys don't.And Kazanas will overrule me when it comes to history. Because he is a professor and i am a lowly minor degree. Just like how when it comes to engineering, i will overrule 99% people here officially and when it comes to medicine, you will overrule me and 99% here on official basis.


Having been on this forum since its very beginning, and having fought a few pitched battles meself...
must say this diatribe above takes the cake! :rotfl:
In the real world none of all of us matter, self-inflated egos aside...
anonymity protects the pedestrian/mediocre as much as the scholar/successful
The system of History itself has undergone massive changes in how it approaches the subject and there are enough documented works to accommodate this evolution in what is essentially a 'social science' ~ What is the need to ironically put it on a "religious" pedestal of infallibility?

I'd take the caveman's ranting any day to avoid the neophyte religious zealotry you claim for the academic system called "History!"
Listening to the former is to see him making a fool of himself, listening to you is making a fool of all of us! :evil:

You are welcome to your opinion and voice, but you are drowning out even the open-minded and skeptical in your blind dogmatic belief in History!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 09 Sep 2017 23:05

SriJoy wrote:
peter wrote:
Assume there were 50 authors who revised Mahabharata repeatedly in various centuries or millenniums. They wrote N observations of stellar phenomenon.

What date distribution do you expect for these N observations?


Can you clarify your question ?

Sure. There are many astronomical observations in Mahabharata. Winter solstice, eclipses, sequence of repeating eclipses, movement of pole star etc.

If you were to identify the dates for each of the observation and some of these observations may be satisfied on multiple dates what distribution of dates do you expect?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vnms » 10 Sep 2017 03:01

Talking about history from western perspective, the British do not teach, in their schools, about the atrocities committed by them in India. So, per our eminent historian cum engineer, it never happened because it is not taught in the bastion of the western world view.

Western exceptionalism... my @ss

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 10 Sep 2017 06:55

Folks here is a Tweet I found from a well known (online) personality with the same disease of self aggrandisement as the crutch for being The Fountain of Knowledge. Almost like they both have the same degree in history
https://twitter.com/helpunmask/status/9 ... 9935877120
Image


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