Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 28 Apr 2018 23:08

shiv wrote:Beekes comparative Indo-European linguistics
https://archive.org/details/Comparative ... inguistics
Comparative linguistics began to develop very late, only shortly before 1800, when
Sanskrit (Old Indo-Aryan) became known in Europe and comparative Indo-Europe-
an linguistics came into being....the notion of analyzing words never occurred to the Greeks,something which was well advanced
in India.


A decisive breakthrough was the discovery of Sanskrit, which was evi-
dently somehow related to Greek and Latin, and which provided the foundation upon
which comparative Indo-European linguistics could be erected.


The idea of an ‘Indo-European’ family of languages grew out of the discovery that
the oldest language of the Indian subcontinent, Sanskrit, was related to the European
languages. The discovery of Sanskrit provided the key which opened the door to the
possibility of comparing the Indo-European languages with each other. Sanskrit was
helpful in a number of ways: it was older than all other known languages (its oldest
text goes back to before 1000 B.C.), and it was relatively transparent because its forms
could be easily analyzed: the original structure of its forms was well-preserved. In
Greek, on the other hand, the inherited sounds s, i̯and u̯had disappeared at an early
stage, followed by the contraction of adjacent vowels which masked the structure of
the original forms. A consequence of the transparent structure of Sanskrit, as opposed
to Greek, was that the Sanskrit grammarians had been able to describe the way its
forms were constructed: this proved to be of enormous importance for the work of
Western scholars.--crush my balls if this is not out of India

Pure Gold!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 28 Apr 2018 23:53

Check out the 1-sentence-summary of Vagheesh's paper

One Sentence Summary: Genome wide ancient DNA from 357 individuals from Central and South Asia sheds new light on the spread of Indo-European languages and parallels between the genetic history of two sub-continents, Europe and South Asia.


This is supposed to be genetics paper! However, they seem very keen on drawing a Linguistic conclusion. So, its not a case of mistakenly associating genetics with linguistics. That was the whole motive of the paper! Explains all the co-authors, so many of whom aren't geneticists. I wouldn't be surprised if David Reich was behind the whole idea. He thinks of himself as a prima donna, who is going to tell the world their histories (with a Eurocentric lens, of course)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Apr 2018 03:50

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0063-9
Genomic variation in 3,010 diverse accessions of Asian cultivated rice
Wensheng Wang, Ramil Mauleon, […]Hei Leung

emphasis added:
Abstract

Here we analyse genetic variation, population structure and diversity among 3,010 diverse Asian cultivated rice (Oryza sativa L.) genomes from the 3,000 Rice Genomes Project. Our results are consistent with the five major groups previously recognized, but also suggest several unreported subpopulations that correlate with geographic location. We identified 29 million single nucleotide polymorphisms, 2.4 million small indels and over 90,000 structural variations that contribute to within- and between-population variation. Using pan-genome analyses, we identified more than 10,000 novel full-length protein-coding genes and a high number of presence–absence variations. The complex patterns of introgression observed in domestication genes are consistent with multiple independent rice domestication events. The public availability of data from the 3,000 Rice Genomes Project provides a resource for rice genomics research and breeding.

From the main text:
Taken together, our results—combined with archaeological evidence of XI cultivation for >9,000 years in both India and China [44,45] —support multiple independent domestications of O. sativa.

44: Liu, L., Lee, G.-A., Jiang, L. & Zhang, J. Evidence for the early beginning (c. 9000 cal. BP) of rice domestication in China: a response. Holocene 17, 1059–1068 (2007).
PDF: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4ed2/8 ... 0aa298.pdf

45: Fuller, D. Q., Allaby, R. G. & Stevens, C. Domestication as innovation: the entanglement of techniques, technology and chance in the domestication of cereal crops. World Archaeol. 42, 13–28 (2010).
PDF: http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/2606/1/WRAP_A ... ldraft.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 29 Apr 2018 05:32

Prem Kumar wrote:Check out the 1-sentence-summary of Vagheesh's paper

One Sentence Summary: Genome wide ancient DNA from 357 individuals from Central and South Asia sheds new light on the spread of Indo-European languages and parallels between the genetic history of two sub-continents, Europe and South Asia.



... sheds new light on the spread of Indian languages, culture, religion into pre-Pagan Europe when Steppe people came to Indian lands. This is parallel/similar to how Semitic languages, culture, and religion spread into Pagan Europe when Roman people came to Semitic lands.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 29 Apr 2018 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chanakyaa » 29 Apr 2018 06:49

Murugan wrote:'Sakya'muni in Ashokan inscription re. Sakyamuni's grand uncle (around 700 bce only) was one Sakkodhan

Scythians broadly (c700BC-???): The Greeks called most of the people north of the Black Sea ‘Scythians’. The Persians called the people of the central steppe Sakas, the two words meaning about the same thing. Both spoke Iranian languages.

Murugan saar, some wise person, several pages back, mentioned your resourcefulness when it come to oldie inscriptions and scripts. Would you be able to point out any resources that provides some insights (and any resources) into the origins and evolution of numeral system in Brahmi/Nagari scripts?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2018 08:33

Murugan himself is a resource

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2018 09:25

https://www.pgurus.com/there-are-lies-d ... tatistics/
My 4 hoaxes article is in the refs..
Flaws in the approach of Dr. Reich of Harvard and selective cherry picking of DNA data to suit his hypothesis
How the scientifically illiterate agenda-driven media jumps on premature scientific discussions

NOTE: This is an overview counter to both the lay-press hype, which was unnecessary and unethical (please see below), and the context and setting of the methodologies used in the so-called scientific study by Reich and Co of Harvard and his compatriots. A detailed technical and scientific evidence-based (from previous published peer-reviewed work) will be published here and/ or inappropriate scientific and academic forums.

THE BASICS FIRST

Every normal human being has a pair of sex-chromosomes. If a male, he will carry an X-chromosome from the mother and a Y-chromosome from the father. If a female, she will carry an X-chromosome from the mother and an X-chromosome from the father. A chromosome is nothing but a long chain of DNA molecules. We all look like humans and inherit the characters of our parents and ancestors because the DNA molecules in the chain in the sequence that they are arranged encode the information necessary for the formation of a human body and its various inherited characteristics. Certain unique sequences within that huge chain sequence of DNA molecules are called “markers” because they are often well-conserved and helps to identify the person and his / her “molecular” level identity. It is like us using the different faces to identify individuals per se and us using the facial similarities perhaps to identify related individuals, to give a simple and relatable example. Obviously, from the above, markers specific to Y-chromosome (which is present only in males) cannot be in females as females do “not” have Y-chromosome; they have only X-chromosome.
Boring beetles and bad sex
Fig 1. Boring beetles and bad sex (c) – http://rosarubicondior.blogspot.com
DNA Origins
Fig 2. DNA origins (c) – http://www.genza.org.za/images/stories/ ... rigins.jpg

NOW LET US SEE WHAT THE (ANTI-)HINDU EDITOR WROTE

A former business-editor from a non-scientific background, Christian-named Tony Joseph, wrote the following in The Hindu: “R1a lineage form only about 17.5 % of Indian male lineage, and even smaller percentage of the female lineage.” (Neelakandan 2017; Chavda 2017; Priyadarshi 2014)
R1a is a DNA marker present in the Y-chromosome, a chromosome that is present only in biological (genetic) males (men). Women (females) have two X-chromosomes and no Y-chromosome. This is standard high school biology. How can a Y-chromosome marker be present in a “smaller percentage of the female lineage”? (“வேசிகள் மரியாதைக்குரியவர்கள், ஊடகங்கள்? – The Rational Hindu” 2017; Murali KV 2017)
The X and Y Chromosomes
Fig 3. The X and Y Chromosomes (c) – http://theconversation.com/sex-genes-th ... -men-32893

Now the same author has committed another similar hit job by publishing a piece on the Quint. (Joseph 2018)

THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS

The reason that scientists publish both the raw and processed (analysed) data is that the opinions and conclusions of the authoring scientists are not the final word. It is subject to amendment, even the opposite conclusions, or not surprisingly an outright rejection of the authors’ conclusions by the scientific community. Hence, every scientist relying on the published research will do their own analysis, or at least an independent assessment, of the published data and results before accepting the conclusions of the author(s): partly, fully or not at all.

PEER-REVIEW: AN OUTLINE OF THE HEART OF THE SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATION PROCESS

(Note: peer-review as well has many inherent issues. So this is not an unqualified attestation or approval of the process.)

If the above is the case for even the published results, imagine what is the likely scrutiny for unpublished research that is undergoing critical review, because they have been submitted for publication, otherwise called the peer-review process. For example, a medication (drug) that has shown positive outcomes in a clinical trial (research) can still be rejected by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), citing various flaws and / or drawbacks in the research methodology or other such factors.

Given all these caveats, taking an unpublished scientific article (paper) which has just been submitted for peer-review, as the final words – and that too relying on the words of the authors alone – without recourse to the analysis of the data undertaken, the methodologies used, the assumptions employed, etc. is simply appalling. More importantly, even the readymade criticisms of apparently scientifically-literate commentators, published beneath the abstract of the article, on the peer-review portal itself appear to have been ignored as well.

From a scientific point of view and established practices of reporting scientific advances via the lay press, this is purely an agenda-driven and unethical exercise, thus.

IS WESTERN LINGUISTICS A SCIENCE?

Any theory is considered a valid theory if it is at least able to make some predictions that have some validity. This is a simple rule of thumb in the sciences for obvious reasons. Even theoretical physicists often seek experimental validation for their hypotheses to be recognised.

To give an example, Albert Einstein did not get a Nobel Prize for the general theory of relativity, for which he is credited with, but the discovery of photoelectric effect. That is because its “predictions” were not proven until the solar eclipse observations in South Africa more than a decade and a half later (where the relativity’s predicted behaviour for light was observed). That said, how can Western linguistics be a science when it is unable to predict anything. Do you know why Google Translate fails hilariously even while being used amongst European languages? (Koyfman 2018) Because linguistic theories are an utter failure with no predictability or practical utility.

Till date, the unscientific Western linguistics is unable to define, or agree upon a definition of, what is a “word”, “meaning of a word”, “concepts of discourse”, “text”, “macro sentence”, etc. that are the basics of the study of languages. (Subrahmanyam 2008) Western linguistics is not worth the paper it is printed on.

WHAT DATA HAS BEEN LEFT OUT? (Priyadarshi 2014)

Archaeo/paleo-climatology (from before Mount Toba eruptions to after the last ice age and subsequent climate change – e.g., the beginnings of Indus-Saraswati-Yamuna river system to the drying up of the Saraswati river bed and consequent impact on human migration, etc.); paleo-ecology; archaeo/paleo-botany; archaeo/paleo-zoology; archaeo/paleo-hydrology; archaeo/paleo-palynology; archaeology; paleontology; phylogenetic studies of cows, buffaloes, dogs, horses, donkeys, pig, sheep, goat, camel, mice, rats, rice, wheat, barley, coffee, sorghum, honey bee, lice; and history and geographical extent of human genetic disorders, microbial parasites, etc.; geology and geophysics; ethnobotany; literary evidence; linguistics and philology; demography; pedology (soil science); anthracological; oenology; anthropology; palaeoart; and of course Indology; all provide valuable data of human migration.

How can all this be ignored in favour of a lone field of study of questionable validity, such as Western linguistics?

PRE-TEST PROBABILITY AND POST-TEST PROBABILITY: WHERE GENETICISTS DELIBERATELY FAIL

It is hard to find a single population genetics paper (most scientific articles for that matter, including archaeology) outside the field of medical / clinical research that bothers itself with the impact of pre-test probability on post-test probability. This is a statistical (mathematical) reality that ought to be addressed. If you start with a high prior pre-test probability, based on unscientific Western linguistics, you will almost always end up with a falsely high post-test probability.

For example, cough is caused by various different diseases. From the humble sore throat to cold (flu) to the deadly tuberculosis (TB). But if you have only recently read a gory description of a TB patient dying on coughing blood or better seen a movie like that, for a few days your mind will all be about cough and TB. Anybody coughs near you will only think of the horrible TB and panic, worry or if possible run away from the person. The person might just be coughing from the hotness of his recent pepper rasam soup drinking! What your mind is doing, in technical terms is, it is having a high pre-test probability for cough being a “marker” of TB and you end worrying, or worse concluding, that every person who coughs as a TB patient. All of us would have experienced such paranoia at some point in life.

Similarly, if you wrongly assume a certain DNA marker is evidence of Central Asians migrating to India (pre-test probability) and you find the marker in both Central Asians and Indians, you will only end up wrongly concluding (post-test probability) that Central Asian Indians did migrate / invade India. But the marker could have equally gone from India to Central Asia as well, or it could have just appeared by mutation of DNA in both the populations by chance at some point in the past. (Wikipedia contributors 2017)

Of course, there are ways to address this. But that requires scientific honesty. How to trust the probity of these people who already start with a deliberately wrong pre-test probability? At least the person who is paranoid of cough is misguided or just spooked, but what about these Harvard academics who do not do science but propaganda?

It is sad that David Reich being a jew should know better about what false propaganda of the Third Reich did and still does: it has divided the world into, falsely, Aryan-Europeans Christian-Whites and non-Aryan non-Europeans coloured peoples.

Perhaps, David Reich should change is first name to Third, or at least to New. It will be more appropriate for his propaganda masquerading as science. He should have some respect for his own ancestors for what they suffered from propaganda and the pseudo-science of race of the Nazis. Is it a case of a victim becoming a perpetrator? (Stosny 2018)

And Harvard (similar to the other Ivy Leagues – note the examples of Pollock from Columbia, Wendy Doniger from Chicago, etc.), it appears, is the current SS headquarters.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Apr 2018 14:51

AFAIK, the Harappans were either not rice cultivators or minorly used rice. So it would seem that around 1800 BC the Indus area had descendants of the urban culture while the Ganga watershed had the rice cultivators, iron workers in a not-yet-urban culture. Were these the same people or different in the sense that Punjabis and UPites are different today?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Apr 2018 15:31

For future reference: Caspian tiger
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 29 Apr 2018 16:54

chanakyaa wrote:... point out any resources that provides some insights (and any resources) into the origins and evolution of numeral system in Brahmi/Nagari scripts?


Chanakya garu,

Brahmi Script:
It is very easy to understand Brahmi if you know any Indian script thoroughly/knowledge of Dava Nagara or Nandi Nagari. It is just a matter of reverse integration because of Brahmi's branching out to various indian scripts. Citing some resources in the end.

There are many web pages available on the net that will give you idea about Brahmi. Just dont believe buhlers, morontimers, phonecian, aramaic connection. They will confuse.

Brahmi Numerals:
To learn Brahmi numerals, the best direct resource is so called english numerals. They are closest to Brahmi, they are direct copy of Brahmi !! Number 6 and 7 are used at it is with very minor modification. Brahmi 1,2,3,4 and 8 require simple improvement/addition of small stroke to create so called english numbers. 5 and 9 need an extra small curve.

Image

Anyone who learns Sangam Age Brahmi (Tamil Brahmi), satavahan Brahmi and Ashokan Brahmi = all are entirely connected, can read Tamil from south to Tibetan in extreme north. And for that matter any script of India can be learnt with 75% less time.

Take this as a project. Any Indologist indian can learn Brahmi without much guidance.

यत्तदग्रे विषमिव परिणामेऽमृतोपमम् । तत्सुखं सात्त्विकं प्रोक्तमात्मबुद्धिप्रसादजम्
Initially it may be difficult, at the end it is sweet like nectar. knowledge gained by realizing yourself gives immense satisfaction.

This could also be applied = never get lessons of Indology from misguided, agenda driven western indologists and their sepoy Indologists in India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 29 Apr 2018 17:03

Brahmi script and numbers have donned different shapes over the years, remained in vogue for 1000+ years. when they were used on inscriptions, manuscripts and on coins by die engravers, personal touch may make them look slightly different. Keep this in mind.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 29 Apr 2018 17:09

Sangam Age Brahmi (Tamil Brahmi) vowesl and consonants set. This brahmi also had seen different variations but only one version, that is Mahadevbhai's version is available, which I am not very fond of.

Since that is the only source for sangam brahmi set:

http://virtualvinodh.com/pdfs/Adinatha_ ... Manual.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 29 Apr 2018 17:11

Ashokan Brahmi alphabets

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/brahmi.htm

(this has misconstrued set of Brahmi numbers, ignore it.)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby gandharva » 29 Apr 2018 21:12

Why can't Indians be given the same privilege?

"From the first stages of his research, Lindo was in direct contact with cultural ambassadors of the Tsimshian community, who advised his team on how to respectfully present its findings and received co-authorship credit for their input. “They reviewed the paper before we submitted it,” Lindo says, “to make sure the wording was sensitive to their culture and their whole histories.”

One key takeaway from the Tsimshian reviewers’ feedback was that speculative “storytelling” was to be avoided in the paper. Where Lindo and his team don’t know something—such as precisely why the population experienced a long slow decline—they admit it rather than invent a narrative.

Lindo is hopeful that the Tsimshian people more broadly will find value in the new research. “After European colonization, there was a big disruption in their culture, and in transmitting their oral histories from one generation to the next,” he said. “And this might help them connect to their ancient history before European contact a little better.” "

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... ocialmedia

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2018 21:17

gandharva wrote:Why can't Indians be given the same privilege?

"From the first stages of his research, Lindo was in direct contact with cultural ambassadors of the Tsimshian community, who advised his team on how to respectfully present its findings and received co-authorship credit for their input. “They reviewed the paper before we submitted it,” Lindo says, “to make sure the wording was sensitive to their culture and their whole histories.”

One key takeaway from the Tsimshian reviewers’ feedback was that speculative “storytelling” was to be avoided in the paper. Where Lindo and his team don’t know something—such as precisely why the population experienced a long slow decline—they admit it rather than invent a narrative.

Lindo is hopeful that the Tsimshian people more broadly will find value in the new research. “After European colonization, there was a big disruption in their culture, and in transmitting their oral histories from one generation to the next,” he said. “And this might help them connect to their ancient history before European contact a little better.” "

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... ocialmedia


Is this coincidence or telepathy?
Thread:
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/990605329372098560

More to the point. Unless we look at the genetic studies it is difficult to tell what the hell they mean. The study seems like an exercise in removing white man's guilt. As we know from animal studies that populations can increase and decline. The population of Europe declined after the 30 years war. As far as I know the population of Ireland declined during that potato blight or whatever. But they all recovered. These Tsimshian people did not. They might have if they had been allowed to recover

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RoyG » 30 Apr 2018 06:13

Murugan wrote:
chanakyaa wrote:... point out any resources that provides some insights (and any resources) into the origins and evolution of numeral system in Brahmi/Nagari scripts?


Chanakya garu,

Brahmi Script:
It is very easy to understand Brahmi if you know any Indian script thoroughly/knowledge of Dava Nagara or Nandi Nagari. It is just a matter of reverse integration because of Brahmi's branching out to various indian scripts. Citing some resources in the end.

There are many web pages available on the net that will give you idea about Brahmi. Just dont believe buhlers, morontimers, phonecian, aramaic connection. They will confuse.

Brahmi Numerals:
To learn Brahmi numerals, the best direct resource is so called english numerals. They are closest to Brahmi, they are direct copy of Brahmi !! Number 6 and 7 are used at it is with very minor modification. Brahmi 1,2,3,4 and 8 require simple improvement/addition of small stroke to create so called english numbers. 5 and 9 need an extra small curve.

Image

Anyone who learns Sangam Age Brahmi (Tamil Brahmi), satavahan Brahmi and Ashokan Brahmi = all are entirely connected, can read Tamil from south to Tibetan in extreme north. And for that matter any script of India can be learnt with 75% less time.

Take this as a project. Any Indologist indian can learn Brahmi without much guidance.

यत्तदग्रे विषमिव परिणामेऽमृतोपमम् । तत्सुखं सात्त्विकं प्रोक्तमात्मबुद्धिप्रसादजम्
Initially it may be difficult, at the end it is sweet like nectar. knowledge gained by realizing yourself gives immense satisfaction.

This could also be applied = never get lessons of Indology from misguided, agenda driven western indologists and their sepoy Indologists in India.


Makes me wonder if we can modify if for use as a link language instead of English. We can bring in more rural folks into various sectors including gov jobs.

Also had another thought. Besides the endogamy study, Brahmi branching into North and South Indian scripts before the advent of Buddhism disproves the notion of the cunning Aryan Brahmin withholding knowledge from the more so called 'Native' peoples. If anything it would prove the opposite. Making knowledge codified by Indus language accessible to the masses.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chanakyaa » 30 Apr 2018 07:22

Murugan wrote:Sangam Age Brahmi (Tamil Brahmi) vowesl and consonants set. This brahmi also had seen different variations but only one version, that is Mahadevbhai's version is available, which I am not very fond of.

Since that is the only source for sangam brahmi set:

http://virtualvinodh.com/pdfs/Adinatha_ ... Manual.pdf

धन्यवाद, Murugan sir.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2018 22:22

Shiv and Arun, That rice paper from China theorizing multiple origins is humbug. So my contacts tell me.
Rice has two main species O. Sativa (Indian -long grain -little starch ) and O. Japonica or Sinica (Japanese or Chinese- short grain- starchy)

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryza_sativa

vs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonica_rice

Now Japonica is a Sativa derivative.


BTW Uty Toronto is doing major research on Rice genome and a paper will come out soon.

Soon could be a year in genome research.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Apr 2018 23:35

Here's an interesting tidbit: Niraj Rai, who has done a U-turn and become an AIT supporter, was granted a visiting scholarship at Harvard Medical School (Reich lab)!!

Recall the incident where Witzel offered Talageri a scholarship at Harvard if the latter changed his views

Now this guy Niraj Rai leaks information about the absence of R1a in IVC aDNA to Open Magazine, before his paper is even sent for peer-review!

Read in full https://www.pgurus.com/early-steppe-vs-middle-to-late-steppe/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Apr 2018 23:58

Shiv, please take a look at this article on horsegram.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 017-0532-2
Look at the section: "Historical linguistics and the hypothesis of peninsular Indian origins"
"In India, except in the high Himalayas, there are three main language families (Indo-European, Austroasiatic [Munda], and Dravidian), and most common names across all of these families suggest a shared ancient name for horsegram, indicating deep cultural roots and ancient cultural knowledge of this crop that was transferred across languages (Fuller 2003, 2007a; Southworth 2005)."

Now, horsegram domestication is set to 4000-3500 BP; but the older it is, probably the earlier this common name was generated, and this perhaps pushes back on the Vignesh et. al. picture.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 May 2018 00:16

Review article perhaps useful for later reference.
The archaeobotany of Indian pulses: identification, processing and evidence for cultivation
Dorian Q Fuller and Emma L. Harvey
https://doi.org/10.1179/174963106x123232
PDF here:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... _Ident.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 01 May 2018 01:54

Isn't horse gram grown in semi-arid regions or rain shed regions of Western Ghats? I.e. Deccan.

Andhra has a famous rasam called ullava charu.

looks like from genetics the talk is to linguistics to food!!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 May 2018 04:05

ramana wrote:Isn't horse gram grown in semi-arid regions or rain shed regions of Western Ghats? I.e. Deccan.

Andhra has a famous rasam called ullava charu.

looks like from genetics the talk is to linguistics to food!!!!

Yes, (to the region. It is called 'Kulith".)

I have seen (youtube) one of the (many?) versions ( very esoteric) of making Ullava Charu. The Kulith were boiled in a sealed bronze pot for ~24 hours and then the broth was extrcted to make this rasam.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 01 May 2018 09:34

shiv wrote:
disha wrote:Meri Maata Rasoi Banaati Hai

This is critical for me to become Hardmard Fropessor of Linguistics

Would Meri maata khaana pakaati hai be equally valid?


Apologies for belated response: The above is urdu - basically - "Khaana" came from Sanskrit "Khadya" (fodder or food). Similarly "Pakaana" comes from "Pakwaan" which actually is cuisine. Now "Pakwaana" means to "make it ripe".

Above is sanskrit etymology though - since "Pakwa" (shortened 'k') means "Ripe" and 'Anna-' is food. -> "Pakwa Ana" -> "Pakwaan" -> "Pakaana".

So yes, you can say "Pakaana", but that is primarily used in Urdu. Equivalent in Hindi of "My mom cooks a delicious dish" is "Meri Maata Swadisht Vyanjan banati hai".,

===

To become Hardmaard Brofessor in Cunning-Linguism., you will have to first learn to pronounce PIE "*h,rep" (to snatch) and tie it into "Pakwa". Both should mean and spell "ripe".

===

I totally support your project on cunning-linguism and propose that there is a thread. Take all sanskrit words - for example on food one has "bhojan", "vyanjan" (vyanjan -> bhojan), Khadya-, Anna- , Aahar- etc and create a PIE word. Invent a back story. After creating a PIE word derive Hindi, Gujarati, Tamil, Telugu, Bengali ... words from it. Create pseudo-statistical "proofs" on how the derivation would have progressed and publish the entire library into PIE.

Some point in future, invalidate the statistical proofs. The whole field should stand discredited.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 01 May 2018 14:11

Prem Kumar wrote:Here's an interesting tidbit: Niraj Rai, who has done a U-turn and become an AIT supporter, was granted a visiting scholarship at Harvard Medical School (Reich lab)!!

Recall the incident where Witzel offered Talageri a scholarship at Harvard if the latter changed his views

Now this guy Niraj Rai leaks information about the absence of R1a in IVC aDNA to Open Magazine, before his paper is even sent for peer-review!

Read in full https://www.pgurus.com/early-steppe-vs-middle-to-late-steppe/


So one fellowship is all it took to prune the number of "useful" samples from Rakhigarhi to "one".

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 May 2018 16:23

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, please take a look at this article on horsegram.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 017-0532-2
Look at the section: "Historical linguistics and the hypothesis of peninsular Indian origins"
"In India, except in the high Himalayas, there are three main language families (Indo-European, Austroasiatic [Munda], and Dravidian), and most common names across all of these families suggest a shared ancient name for horsegram, indicating deep cultural roots and ancient cultural knowledge of this crop that was transferred across languages (Fuller 2003, 2007a; Southworth 2005)."

Now, horsegram domestication is set to 4000-3500 BP; but the older it is, probably the earlier this common name was generated, and this perhaps pushes back on the Vignesh et. al. picture.

Ah - missed that ref to the name though I scanned the paper. I have been reading a linguistics book and got so irritated that as a cathartic I wrote an article that will appear in Swatantra. But I digress - when shared common names across languages are a problem for linguists they say it is "borrowing"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 May 2018 17:24

Found an interesting titbit while reading Beekes book on IE languages - confirmed from many sources.

There is no common reconstructed PIE word for bow and arrow. Obviously Sanskrit has separate words. European words are more like "arc"/to bend/bow and

This has some interesting implications for language spread. At the outset let me point out (without consulting Google) that arrowheads have been found in almost all cultures dating back to a very long time. If the Steppe people brought the IE word to India (they came on chariots remember), they should also have taken the same to Europe. Either they did not - which means that they did not have the word, or they took the word to Europe but all of Europe selectively rejected the word for bow and arrow, while all of India simply swallowed the word without exception (the word for arrow is shared between Sanskrit based and Indian Peninsular languages.) although bows and arrows have been in India for many thousands of years

Strange things crop up when I search for information related to this. Apparently archery was not big in Bronze age Europe. But steppe people it is claimed went out with chariots and (assumed) bows and arrows.

This is a usable argument against steppe origin of language.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 May 2018 18:00

Any further info about this, and Y haplogroup Q1a?

PS: Also in the same chart, there is a similar situation regarding R1a, lots in the Steppe, none in South Asia. Of course, now South Asia has R1a; but is the implication that Vaghesh et. al.'s samples don't cover R1a; so how can this be the final story, even imagining that it is largely correct? There needs to be Swat aDNA showing R1a at some point, if not now, then some future discovery???????

Image
Last edited by A_Gupta on 01 May 2018 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 May 2018 18:09

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml
Funny contortions needed to keep the I.E. theory going and going and going, it seems.
The oldest evidence to date of the presence of haplogroup Q is Europe are Q1a2-L56 samples from Mesolithic Latvia tested by Mathieson et al. (2017) and from the Khvalynsk culture (5200-4000 BCE), excavated in the middle Volga region and tested by Mathieson et al. (2016). The Khvalynsk culture is ancestral to the Yamna culture, which represents the Late Copper Age and Early Bronze Age homeland of the Proto-Indo-European speakers. Q1a2 could have travelled alongside haplogroup R1a-Z284 (via Poland) or R1b-U106 (via the Danube) to Scandinavia, or have been present there since the Mesolithic, as in Latvia. Both scenarios are possible as modern Scandinavians belong to two distinct branches of L56: Y4827 and L804. In either cases, all modern carriers of each branch seem to descend from a single ancestor who lived only some 3,000 years ago, during what was then the Nordic Bronze Age.


While Q1a is more Mongolian, Siberian and Native American, Q1b1 (F1213) appears to have originated in Central Asia and migrated early to South Asia and the Middle East. The highest frequency of Q1b1 in Europe is found among Ashkenazi Jews (5%) and Sephardic Jews (2%), suggesting that Q1b was present in the Levant before the Jewish disapora 2,000 years ago. In fact, Jewish Q1b all belong to the Y2200 subclade, which was formed some 2,600 years ago. Other subclades of Q1b1 are found throughout the Middle East, including, Armenia, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon (2%), and in isolated places settled by the Phoenicians in southern Europe (Crete, Sicily, south-west Iberia). This means that Q1b must have been present in the Levant at latest around 1200 BCE, a very long time before the Hunnic migrations. One hypothesis is that Q1b reached the Middle East alongside haplogroup R1a-Z93 with the Indo-Iranian migrations from Central Asia during the Late Bronze Age. The age estimate for the Middle Eastern Q1b1a (L245) branch is 4,500 years, which corresponds roughly to the beginning of the Proto-Indo-Iranian expansion to Central Asia. The other branch, Q1b1b (Y2265) is found in Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and India, a distribution that also agrees with an Indo-Iranian dispersal.

Q1b1 was probably not one of the original lineages of Proto-Indo-European speakers of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe since it is almost completely absent from Balto-Slavic and Germanic countries. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume that Q1b1 was indigenous to the Ural mountains or Central Asia and was absorbed by the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europeans there during the Bronze Age, either during the Sintashta or Andronovo culture, then spread with the Indo-Aryans to India, Iran and the Near East. Q1b1 probably settled in the Levant at the same time as R1a-Z93, as both lineages are found among the Jews and the Lebanese and in places historically colonised by the Phoenicians. Autosomal analyses have confirmed that all Levantine people (Jews, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians) possess about 0.5% of Northeast Asian (Mongoloid) admixture. Since these populations lack Mongoloid mtDNA, the presence of Northeast Asian admixture can only be explained by the 2% of Q1b1 among Levantine men, the only paternal lineage of Mongoloid origin in the region.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 14:45

Arun did you see Vagheesh's reply regarding Y haplotype?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 14:46

Here is how our history is cooked up for us coolies. This is Mary Boyce on exactly what steppe migrants were doing while heading to India. She mentions Veda so she must be a scholar
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 21:25


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 03 May 2018 02:45

shiv wrote:Arun did you see Vagheesh's reply regarding Y haplotype?


Yes. When I'm feeling cynical, I'd say, everything that doesn't agree with the desired conclusion is an "outlier" :wink:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 03 May 2018 10:03

I cannot see anything Vagheesh tweets. The coward has blocked me on Twitter.

I was direct and acerbic in my Tweets regarding his paper, but let the record show that I never abused him personally while challenging him on scientific grounds.

There is only one explanation for his having blocked me, quite honestly.

Seems like he wants to be able to toss complete bull$hit around in the name of "genetics" without anyone calling him on it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 03 May 2018 16:20


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 03 May 2018 20:17

A_Gupta wrote:On the absence of the Saraswati:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Ind ... ages/17571

The same guy appeared on Twitter and I had a long series of Tweets telling him what I thought

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 03 May 2018 21:05

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:On the absence of the Saraswati:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Ind ... ages/17571

The same guy appeared on Twitter and I had a long series of Tweets telling him what I thought

Oh Boy, I think Italian AITwalla. I think I have run into him multiple times ...a long time ago.

What is funny about his post is that while he reaches exactly opposite conclusion (namely - Grand Sarasvati is a myth, precisely because of his myopic vision for civilization and also it's timing), the total of 4 references he quotes (we may add many more, e.g. Khonde et al. Sarkar et al, etc.) and all of them together build a consistent and phenomenal evidence for mighty Sarasvati!

In fact it is going to take many Indics a long time to grapple with this new found reality. In fact, the evidence is so overwhelming, many Indic researchers - Michel Danino, Srinivas Kalyanraman, N Rajaram and such are struggling to adjust to this reality (partly due to the myopic vision and also due to overinfluence of Indology researchers and their research methods).

I get goosebumps for obvious reasons..it is obvious but let me state it again..each paper validates/corroborates textual descriptions of Mahabharata, Ramayana and Rigveda and the chronology claims for each of them by yours truly - 5561 BCE, 12209 BCE & 6th millennium BCE through unknown antiquity.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 04 May 2018 02:17

I have a warning to offer. Shiv, A-Gupta, Hiranyareta, and others who are engaging all kinds of people on Twitter these days. At great length and in great detail.

I understand the temptation to engage these AIT-wallahs directly at the first opportunity that appears (Twitter). It can seem empowering to find ourselves in an actual dialogue with people who previously just ignored any line of reasoning in conflict with their dogma, but now are responding to tweets.

Unfortunately it's not a good platform for this kind of public discourse, and may actually be a detrimental one for several reasons.

One, it's really not a "public" platform for debate in the way that say YouTube videos, live academic conferences, or even well-visited blog sites are. Only people interested in a Twitter conversation ever get to read what's going on there. That usually means whoever happens to be tagged on it. It may seem that you are debating Vagheesh or that Italian guy on a big stage in full public view, but in fact you may as well be on a conference phone line.

Two, it is possible for people in the conversation to unilaterally exclude even those who happen to be tagged on it, by simply blocking them. This wouldn't be possible in a balanced venue of debate... not even, for example, in a forum like BRF. We don't post on the comments sections of certain news websites or blogs for precisely this reason... selective and biased "moderation" to silence inconvenient information or points of view.

Third, and MOST important: what is really happening here is that you guys are showing all your cards. You are exposing, prematurely, your data, your line of research, your strategy of argument, your reasoning etc. directly to the enemy AND TO NO ONE ELSE in the sense of a neutral or unbiased audience.

Do you see the problem with this? They control the publication mechanisms and discourse-amplification machinery much more than we do. And having heard what we know, what we are discovering, what we are thinking, and how we are arguing... they are far better empowered to direct that machinery pre-emptively against us. They know what to put out to the wide world so as to obfuscate, sabotage, and quash the arguments that you have worked very hard to research and formulate, and that you have not had a real chance to properly publish or put forward yet. This may, in fact, be exactly the reason why Vagheesh and his fellow sepoys scrambled to redefine "ANI" and "ASI" with their recent paper before any Rakhigarhi results could be published.

Just my thoughts. Never forget, they are working to a strategy and they are better positioned than us to implement it, at least for now.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 May 2018 02:35

^^^ True. Decided sometime today to cease and desist on twitter.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Suresh S » 04 May 2018 02:39

Rudradev boss I like your line of thinking.


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