Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Nilesh Oak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 04 May 2018 02:46

^^^ Rudradev ji,

These very thoughts (not as articulate as you put it) very much entered my mind a while ago. Frankly, this applies to everything else (similar serious subjects) that is being discussed on Twitter/Facebook.

A better strategy is to wait until the paper is officially/peer-reviewed (whatever is the final medium) published and then we can critique it - with cool head, objectively and rationally.

Thank you for vocalizing them and articulating them. If some of these researchers were objective and were truly after the truth, they would have changed their path/line of thinking a long time ago (i.e. much earlier in this Twitter debate).

Om.

Nilesh

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Suresh S » 04 May 2018 03:35

Just this week I had a massive argument with one of my friends about these topics. My closing arguments were that after a lifetime of working with goras and all other races I have come to the logical conclusion that hindu culture and religion is absolutely, unequivocally in my opinion the best in the world by a wide margin.

Anyone especially gora(and their Indian sepoys or uncle sam Indians used in the same vein as the N word ) coming out with their version of our history or anything about our society I reject completely unless you can convincingly prove to me otherwise. Next day he comes out with this harvard study of so called genomics theory which we all are debating about here.

This is for people who are not from medicine or research background, I want to educate them a bit.You can prove any hypothesis simply by manipulating the data or other factors in your experiment. some times these guys are so crafty that you really have to get down to the smallest detail to figure out the BS.

Another thing about these scientific types never assume them to be all innocent and nice and fair. Just the opposite. These guys can be as corrupt and dishonest as the guys in the normal society , no less. Only difference is that the currency of corruption is not money.One little example yours truly was experimenting with something called langendorff model of heart a well known old model but to set it up without any prior research background and help is very hard.This is going back 20 yrs.I did it independantly. I was able to sort of set it up and started putting different chemicals and drugs to see the effect on the mouse heart. I used to discuss all this innocently with a nice Indian muslim professor in his lab at a University center in massa land. He sent his post doctoral assistant uninvited to my little lab to observe. Few yrs later I am back in clinical surgery and I went back to the professor to get a reference letter. While I was waiting for him to come, a surgical resident happen to come by, who told me he is about to present his PhD(MD/PhD program ) thesis on effects of certain drugs on heart in the langendorff model, even some of the drugs were the same. I almost had a heart attack. well good luck to him.So u guys get the drift I hope.

A nice Iraqi surgeon friend of mine who has never seen the inside of a lab and joked about it. he published about Interleukins without ever doing an iota of research. Just out of thin air. He was able to publish his "research " in multiple scientific European journals as he knew his bullshit may be be called out if he tried to publish in American Journals. They may call his so called lab and his supervisor both of which did not exist.I saw many of his published papers in European Journals, more than a dozen. he was able to get his green card based on this fiction , go figure.No different than AAA ranking of securities by Moodys and others(2008) I guess .Europeans will swallow shit if it is from America without questioning.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 04 May 2018 06:44

Wow!!! Scumbag prof and his post doc asst spy.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 06:45

Rudradev wrote:I have a warning to offer. Shiv, A-Gupta, Hiranyareta, and others who are engaging all kinds of people on Twitter these days. At great length and in great detail.

I understand the temptation to engage these AIT-wallahs directly at the first opportunity that appears (Twitter). It can seem empowering to find ourselves in an actual dialogue with people who previously just ignored any line of reasoning in conflict with their dogma, but now are responding to tweets.

I see your point. But I must point out that I have an ulterior motive - which is why a lot of what I "argue" about is linked in images or files that can be linked repeatedly ad nauseam. My "arguments" do not go away - and I link them repeatedly for others to see. AIT wala will not change - we need to change the mindset of Indian coolies. Which is also why I try very hard not to piss off any AIT walas so that my posts remain visible to at least a few on their timeline. It's not their followers that I am bothered about - it is the third party neutralites who have no bone in the issue to read and see

I do not want to hide my arguments. I want saturate information space with them. 99.99% of teh time the AITwala is never going to care for what you say - but when you do reveal your argument once and very late- it will get glossed over and forgotten because it has been unseen and hidden. Better to fill up all space with your view. However i do try and "moderate" counter claims credibly to get people reading/listening. And yes I know AIT worthies may be reading this. Hi!! :D

Keep on battering info-space in a manner that convinces those who are willing to see your viewpoint and don't worry about AITwalas. In the end we will get them for their lies. This is one reason why I have been running a parallel program to undermine the "PADA" - "PIE-Avestan-Dravdian-Aryan" story that they have pushed and fortunately for us they have been lying. They are not going to stop. But I tend to hit with my cards not hide. By sharing I hope to empower a group far broader than what we have.

I will link a few of my files here and if anyone thinks they can be used anywhere, feel free to use them/link them
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 06:49


Ashok Sarraff
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 04 May 2018 07:22

An interesting effort by UAE-based Rajat Rajesh to decipher IVC seals. Part 6 of his video suggests that IVC people knew about the legend of Bhaghirath. Overall, concludes that IVC was post-Vedic because they were aware of Atharva Veda and that the seals depict sanskrit-prakrit messages.

Part 1 below:

https://youtu.be/KQpAtGoWs6w

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 09:02

Nilesh Oak wrote:
shiv wrote:The same guy appeared on Twitter and I had a long series of Tweets telling him what I thought

Oh Boy, I think Italian AITwalla. I think I have run into him multiple times ...a long time ago.

What is funny about his post is that while he reaches exactly opposite conclusion (namely - Grand Sarasvati is a myth, precisely because of his myopic vision for civilization and also it's timing), the total of 4 references he quotes (we may add many more, e.g. Khonde et al. Sarkar et al, etc.) and all of them together build a consistent and phenomenal evidence for mighty Sarasvati!

In fact it is going to take many Indics a long time to grapple with this new found reality. In fact, the evidence is so overwhelming, many Indic researchers - Michel Danino, Srinivas Kalyanraman, N Rajaram and such are struggling to adjust to this reality (partly due to the myopic vision and also due to overinfluence of Indology researchers and their research methods).

I get goosebumps for obvious reasons..it is obvious but let me state it again..each paper validates/corroborates textual descriptions of Mahabharata, Ramayana and Rigveda and the chronology claims for each of them by yours truly - 5561 BCE, 12209 BCE & 6th millennium BCE through unknown antiquity.

Lovely. I had a long Twitter match with this man starting last night and going into break this morning.

What I particularly enjoy about this is that I have spent my time collecting up lots and lots of references and titbits that never get out into the open and an exchange like the one I had with Shri Francesco Brighenti enabled me to post a whole load of refs of Twitter where they can be seen by many. In the end his arguments boiled down to one word Ayas in one sukta RV 7.95.1 apart from accusing people of having "homeland pride", asking if I am blind and saying that I don't know Sanskrit and am using secondary sources. I see such protests as desperation.

As for the future I can anticipate what AIT walas will do - I will post here so they can read and get ideas from me in case they have not already thought of it. So far they have only stuck to "sale ol" same ol" - ayas, fortress of iron etc, pur, Aryan language, philology etc

Next step will be to assuage their honor by accusing Arcaheo astronomy as being fake and by dissing Veda scholars as well as trying to prove that linguistics is reliable.Indian coolies will be available for this. We also need to anticipate what is going to be thrown at us. Meanwhile let me post some "Ayas" Rig veda refs as images. Some are from the 3 pdfs linked above
From one of the above pdfs - maybe second one
Image

RL Kashyap
Image

RL Kashyap
Image

From above pdfs
Image

From @hiranyareta
https://twitter.com/Hiranyareta/status/ ... 9209414656
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 09:07

I will deliberately link again all my articles questioning the PADA of AIT

"PADA" = PIE, Aryan, Dravidian, Avestan

The 4 Hoaxes That Made Sanskrit “Come” To India
http://www.swatantramag.in/?p=2087

Aryans And Dravidians: An Invention Of Racist Nineteenth Century Scholars
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/aryans- ... y-scholars

There Never Was A Language Called Avestan
http://www.swatantramag.in/?p=2067

P.I.E. or LIE: Why Linguistics Is Not A Science
http://www.swatantramag.in/?p=2113

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 09:23

One consistent tactic used by AIT is to diss any information that people dig up form India that shows up AIT. Is it so difficult to dig up dirt about philologists, linguists and their faking? It is not. The reason why no Indian argues against software development or microchips is that they are based on solid science and engineering. The reason we protest against AIT is not because of Hindu nationalism or "Homeland pride" that Fransesco Brighenti's ilk may imagine but it is simply fake. Tear it down. Linguistics is no science. Do not be intimidated by the jargon they use and claims of great wisdom. They are no better than Catholic church vs Galileo.

Ask for proof that reconstruction works - using some old language and 2 daughter languages rather than cooking up fake languages, which is what linguists do.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 09:28

Lies made up by Anthropologist turned Historian David Anthony in his book "Horse, wheel and language" to connect Steppe with Rig Veda
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 09:30

Total and complete fabrication of history by mary Boyce in her work on "Indo-Iranian" fakeology
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2018 10:24

For last 6-7 centuries there is a constant migration of Gujaratis to Maharashtra region/heartland. For last 3 centuries Marathi speaking population has moved to Gujarat in large number - up to deep south in Saurashtra.

Migrated Gujaratis have learnt to fluently speak Marathi. Many Gujju origin business families settled in Maharashtra heartland CAN NOT speak Gujarati. There are families with surnames like Gujarati (!), Shah, Patel etc but do not even know how to speak Gujarati.

Marathis who have migrated to Gujarat (and also to Indore and Gwalior) do not know much of Marathi now. Marriage between Marathis and Gujaratis is common. Most of the earliest settled Gujaratis were summoned by Shivaji Maharaj the Great to do business in his kingdom.

Case of Kutchis - migrating southward from their homeland - 1000 kms

The major chunk of Gujjus in Mumbai are Kutchis who speak Sindhi influenced Kutchi language in their homes. They are extremely fluent in Marathi. These Kutchis have migrated from place as far as 1000 kms (one thousand kilometers) away from Mumbai 200 years ago. Primary language of Mumbai is Marathi today. Though Kutchis control large chunk of businesses, there is not and iota of influence of their language on local populace of Mumbai.

Case of Parsis...

Kutchis and Marwaris migrating eastward from their homeland - 2500 kms

Kutchi bramans moved to Bihar 150-200 years ago. Owned big businesses. Later they moved to Kolkata. Now these Kutchis speak Gujarati.

Marwaris moved in significantly large number to Kolkata when it became capital of British 200-300 years ago.

No migration of language to these places, nor even little influence on local dialects.
Nothing in short term, nothing in long term if 7 centuries of constant migration can be counted as long term.

Added later:
The Marathi speaking population came with Maratha conquest. Most of the settlers were loyal officers/rank and file of maratha army and other administrators.

Gujarati speaking population in Maharashtra were traders who had larger influence on local politics. They still have.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2018 11:14

Some examples of multiple foreign language and script usage in Indian administration that could not become mainstream (numismatics, legal documents), mostly Bi-lingual, Bi-script:

Ancient:
Greek in North West of India, Bactria. Largely bilingual Greek - Prakrit

Medieval
1) Arabic - 13th century to middle of 16th century but did not cover large part - limited to delhi and capitals of sultanates for shorter periods
2) Persian - 2nd half of 16th century to early 19th century. Main centers were Lahore, Peshawar, Delhi, Agra, Patna

Modern:
Bilingual/Tri lingual/Multi lingual - English, English Bangla, English Telugu, English Tamil,
English-Hindi (current)

Scripts:

Ancient
Biscript - Greek-Kharoshthi, Greek-Brahmi, Bactrian Greek-Kharoshthi, Kharoshthi-Brahmi

Medieval
Bi-Script: Arabic Sharda, Arabic-Persian, Arabic-Nagari, Persian-Nagari, Roman-Telugu, Roman-Tamil,
Tri-Script: Bangla-Nagari-Persian
Multi-script: Tamil-Telugu-Nagari-Persian together for a very short period

Modern: Roman - Nagari (Current)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2018 11:26

Mahmud of Ghazni had to try hard for pushing Arabic in India (Punjab)

To gain acceptability, he issued coins in Bi-Script (Arabic-Sharda), Bi-lingual (Arabic-Sanskrit) fashion

Image
(courtesy: classical numismatic gallery, Ahmedabad)

The obverse has Kalima in Arabic
The reverse has Kalima in Sanskrit, inscribed in Sharada script Awyaktamekam Muhammad Awatara and Nrpati Mahamuda in centre. Iyam Tankam Ghatitam Mahmudpure Tajikyer Samvat....... in the margin around.

Minted at Mahmudpur (Lahore)

That is, before getting acceptability in invaded/migrated land, one needs to know the local language (and script) first. That is true for pillagers and tyrants too.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2018 12:13

Not easy to implant your languages and scripts even if you have tax paying subjects

Ancient example, 1200 years before Mahmud :
Coin of Indo-Greek ruler Apollodotos I of BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom

Image
(courtesy: cngcoins)

The Greek Legend read on obverse : Baselleios Apollodotoy Soteros - Bottom left upward > Top > Downward to Bottom Right

Kharoshthi Prakrit lgend on reverse : Reading from right bottom, reading from inside going up > top > downward - maharajas apaladatasa tratarasa

The symbols around elephant are used to get legitimacy and connection with earlier Magadhan punch marked coins series used in the kingdom

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2018 12:21

Finding date stamp and language markers using genetics is like finding first 1000 litres of melted water released from Gomukh 100 metres away after some time. Forget about finding the same water later at Rishikesh or farther at Prayag (allahabd)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 May 2018 17:24

A_Gupta wrote:On the absence of the Saraswati:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Ind ... ages/17571


The claim of the geology paper cited is that the Sutlej and Saraswati never really co-existed. When the river that flowed along the Ghagghar-Hakra channel was mountain-fed, it was the Sutlej flowing along this course, there was no Sutlej river. Then the Sutlej switched over to its current bed, and what remained perhaps was a seasonal monsoon-fed river.

This would make the Nadistuti in the Rg Veda problematic.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, all that the paper establishes is that the Sutlej and the Saraswati (when it was mountain-fed) had proximate sources in the Himalayas. But I may be wrong.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 May 2018 19:13

Shiv, how much do "Avestan" and Sanskrit differ, e.g., compared to Hindi Brij Bhasha and Khariboli dialects?
(Khariboli = "standard" Hindi, Brij Bhasha examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhas ... _sentences) )

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 19:59

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, how much do "Avestan" and Sanskrit differ, e.g., compared to Hindi Brij Bhasha and Khariboli dialects?
(Khariboli = "standard" Hindi, Brij Bhasha examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhas ... _sentences) )

Arun - I cannot claim to know either Avestan or Sanskrit so my information is all from sources who speak about the two and the large volumes of information available regarding the relatively small body of Zoroastrian texts available. I will try and summarize the logic in my head that forms my opinion:

1. Several (at least two that I have read) sources say that anyone who knows Sanskrit will easily understand Avestan simply by substituting the sound changes.
2. I am yet to locate the lament by Witzel that Avestan texts are hamstrung by the fact that its "reconstruction" depended on Sanskrit.
3. At least two authors (Darmetester and Haug I think) state that the Avesta is reminiscent of the Veda/Atharva Veda
4. Most of the available texts are in Pahlavi wich is a real biatch when it comes to reading because of highly variable texts, script, variable borrowings etc . It would be virtually impossible to figure out original phonology from this. Much detail about this here - please read http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe05/sbe0503.htm
5. There is absolutely no information suggesting that a language called Avestan ever existed. The reconstruction appears to me to be pure fiction like all other linguistic reconstructions.
6. Here's the rub: IF it can be shown that there are reasonable close links between the Atharva Veda and the Zend Avesta then it would likely mean that the languages were originally the same or very similar. Like Hindi and Brij Bhasha I guess

I am actually digging deep into this right now and the sense I get is that the Indian side of history may be much older than what appears to be teh case from western philological research. That is to say - there must have been an Veda-Paris split in great antiquity - but the actual development of Zoroastrianism from that split came a long long time later among people who had migrated west. As someone pointed out, that westward migration may simply have been an migration to areas that were already practising a veda-related religion. This is speculation

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 04 May 2018 20:40

A_Gupta wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:On the absence of the Saraswati:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Ind ... ages/17571


When the river that flowed along the Ghagghar-Hakra channel was mountain-fed, it was the Sutlej flowing along this course, there was no Sutlej river. Then the Sutlej switched over to its current bed, and what remained perhaps was a seasonal monsoon-fed river.

I'm guessing that this was a single moment. I mean one day a rishi was sitting on the banks of the Saraswati meditating. He went to bed and when he woke up lo there was no river - it had gone and become Sutlej and the man had to wait for monsoons.

I think we should not fall for rhetoric - or resort to counter rhetoric as I have done.

Facts based on recent papers
1. Ghaggar Hakra sediments are recognizable in the sea (Rann of Kutch) up to 10k years ago
2. After this the sediments are mixed with desert sediments which makes differentiation difficult but it does not mean that the river stopped flowing to sea overnight leaving meditating rishi high and dry
3. Monsoons were very heavy from 10k years ago to 6k years - which according to that paper actually helped Mehrgarh agriculture - but aridity started in Rajasthan about 6000 years ago

The exact local dynamics are impossible to judge from these papers or from Vedas. I will post RL Kashyap's Nadi stuti commentary in due course

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 04 May 2018 21:27

shiv wrote:I am actually digging deep into this right now and the sense I get is that the Indian side of history may be much older than what appears to be teh case from western philological research. That is to say - there must have been an Veda-Paris split in great antiquity - but the actual development of Zoroastrianism from that split came a long long time later among people who had migrated west. As someone pointed out, that westward migration may simply have been an migration to areas that were already practising a veda-related religion. This is speculation


I have a suggestion., start from an SVC center - say RakhiGarhi. This is T0.

For every 20 years, move both eastward and westward by 5 Km. This is one generation is moving by 5 km. How many generations will it take to move to Isfahan (Iran) some 2000 kms away? That will be 2000/5=400 generations. And 400x20 = 8000 years.

However, since mittani texts were found in modern day Syria, take Damascaus as your end point which is 3800 kms away and hence 3800/5=760 generations or 760x20=15100 years. If Generation is 15 years, then it is 11400 years.

There was no AIT. There was no AMT. The only thing was OIT.

Here is the theory., SVC in its flood plains created the one of the first cradle of civilization. As humans settled and as the population grew, new settlements were found. As settlements grew trade of various goods and services stabilized and increased. For example Rakhigarhi would have exported food in return for minerals. And thus the settlements proceeded along path of resources and congregated near intersections to create modern day towns and cities.

Why a generation at 20 years? Actually a generation should be bracketed as 15 yrs <= G <= 20yrs. I took a generation as 20 years. A girl reaches 15 years of age at puberty, is married off to a promising boy in the nearest settlement which happens to be 5 kms away and at the age of 20 the couple starts a successful family. At @15 years, some members in the settlement start off on a new venture and moves away from the settlement and start a new settlement and thus every 20 years, a generation moves outwards.

The number 15 yrs <= G <= 20 years works very well. Several time scales for domestication of cereals, animals and their outward migration fits that pattern.

Only in the last 100 years or so can a human settle 100s of kms away. The kind of American migration happened because the continent was isolated ant the natives lost resistance against the disease thus losing their defence against such an inward migration. Otherwise it is always a slow grind. \

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 May 2018 22:02

^^^ Genetics-wise the average age difference between a woman and her children is supposedly 26-30 years.
Some info and discussion in the comments here:
http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... times.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 04 May 2018 22:17

disha - not sure I agree with the 5km/generation spread. you have to account for geography - i.e. the population moves to the next best arable land or water source or defensible position or trade route... therefore the distances can be much larger

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 05 May 2018 01:13

Lalmohan wrote:disha - not sure I agree with the 5km/generation spread. you have to account for geography - i.e. the population moves to the next best arable land or water source or defensible position or trade route... therefore the distances can be much larger


Lalmohan'ji - Of course - a human can walk 6-8 kms/per hour and I used the 1 hour as a distance for the next settlement. That is, in human mental scape of time and distance., it is not too far off and neither too near. It is like my uncle says - that relative is just "10 mins of walk" away. In effect all are within a range of 3.5 to 7 kms.

For a new settlement, of course the land has to have resources, but should not be so far away from base settlement as well.

Of course, I am amenable to the spread being larger.

Austin'ji., this is little circular:

...we estimate that the time of admixture between Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry and AASI ancestry in the three Indus_Periphery samples was 53 ± 15 generations ago on average, corresponding to a 95% confidence interval of about 4700-3000 BCE assuming 28 years per generation
....Using admixture linkage disequilibrium, we estimate a date of 107 ± 11 generations ago for Iranian agriculturalist and AASI-related admixture in the Palliyar, corresponding to a 95% confidence interval of 1700-400 BCE assuming 28 years per generation.


They have a date and they have an admixture ratio and to make the two work - they put in 28 years per generation.

Are you saying that on an average, a son or daughter is born in 28th year of woman in the last 40k years?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 05 May 2018 02:30

disha wrote:
Are you saying that on an average, a son or daughter is born in 28th year of woman in the last 40k years?


A woman has N children. The average of age difference between the children and the woman is taken, and then averaged over all the women in population. That is the definition of "generation time".

Strictly speaking it should be average age difference of (children who survive to reproduce) and the mother.

This Priya Moorjani paper claims to have measured it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/20/5652.long

The answer they come up with is 26-30 years. This means women have had children, say from age 18-38 on the average for the last 40,000 years.

I don't agree with the answer, I think 26 is an upper bound, not a lower bound, because of mortality rates, etc.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby MurthyB » 05 May 2018 07:06

I had a basic question that perhaps someone can educate me on.

What was the Steppe area and civilization like? Seems like they were nomads and not very civilized and didn't do agriculture or have rivers/coastline etc. Like Mongolians in Mongolia. So how could a very complex language like the mother of Sanskrit develop in an area without civilization? Language, philosophy etc need a certain level of prosperity and people with time on their hands. OTOH, if the mother of Sanskrit was a much cruder language, then why did it become so much more complex in India and not elsewhere. What is the AIT explanation for this if anyone knows.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RoyG » 05 May 2018 07:38

A_Gupta wrote:
disha wrote:
Are you saying that on an average, a son or daughter is born in 28th year of woman in the last 40k years?


A woman has N children. The average of age difference between the children and the woman is taken, and then averaged over all the women in population. That is the definition of "generation time".

Strictly speaking it should be average age difference of (children who survive to reproduce) and the mother.

This Priya Moorjani paper claims to have measured it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/20/5652.long

The answer they come up with is 26-30 years. This means women have had children, say from age 18-38 on the average for the last 40,000 years.

I don't agree with the answer, I think 26 is an upper bound, not a lower bound, because of mortality rates, etc.


Correct. No way 26 could have been the norm.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 09:53

MurthyB wrote:I had a basic question that perhaps someone can educate me on.

What was the Steppe area and civilization like? Seems like they were nomads and not very civilized and didn't do agriculture or have rivers/coastline etc. Like Mongolians in Mongolia. So how could a very complex language like the mother of Sanskrit develop in an area without civilization? Language, philosophy etc need a certain level of prosperity and people with time on their hands. OTOH, if the mother of Sanskrit was a much cruder language, then why did it become so much more complex in India and not elsewhere. What is the AIT explanation for this if anyone knows.

The steppe story is fake.

No one knows what language was spoken in steppe. No evidence exists. A few years ago they had assigned "Altaic" languages (non IE) to steppe. Suddenly after PIE was cooked up linguists threw out Altaic and helped archaeologists put PIE in steppe so it could help with the fake language migration story. Steppe area has horse burials with humans , horse meat eating and horse milk drinking
.
But still they have made up bullshit like the following (you must have seen the image linked below.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcMDVsOU8AEvVY8.jpg

Unfortunately most Indians have now forgotten that the Vedas are a self contained system of education that included oral transmission and error correction so it is transmitted accurately. They speak of the geography around India even if river names are sometimes used in a metaphorical sense. But western historians who make up this shit don't give a flying fuk for what Indians may think. Indians' opinions were never considered when this bullshit was made up and are still not taken seriously. "AIT explanations" are not meant to be rational and explained to everyone as long as white man and his academic peers believe it. Indians' don't matter. It is only desis with a colonized mindset who think that we matter to the west in the broader scheme of things.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 05 May 2018 10:30

@Nilesh Oak

With regard to astronomy as a historical tool, I think only a historian of astronomy can comment on its reliability. Sanskritists — no matter how good their Sanskrit is — cannot determine it,” she said.


She is Romila Thapar, October 2, 2015, IE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 11:00

I have come to the conclusion that Comparative Linguistics is one of the most worthless things to have developed in 200 years. They have done nothing other than create dense, unreadable texts and have proven nothing, have explained nothing without cooking up facts of using circular logic. In the long term this entire bogus field must be exposed and take down.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 05 May 2018 11:02

A glance at aryan invasion theory related news since June 2014:

Sr News Article Publisher Date
1 Write Angle: To each his own" The Hindu 27-Feb-15
2 ICHR debate on Aryan invasion theory cut short The Hindu 27-Mar-15
3 'Yoga was a contribution of non-Vedic Dravidian tradition'" The Hindu 21-Jun-15
4 Conspiracy theory Hindu Business Line 03-Jul-15
5 DU seminar on Vedas questions Aryan Invasion theory, challenges Marxist narrative of history DNA 26-Sep-15
6 Delhi University seminar on vedas: 'Aryan invasion never happened … The Indian Express 26-Sep-15
7 Does it matter now if someone was an Aryan: Romila Thapar The Indian Express 01-Oct-15
8 Debate on Aryan invasion theory revived The Hindu 26-Nov-15
9 Watch Congress' Kharge bring up the Aryan invasion in Parliament Scroll.in 27-Nov-15
10 Anti-Aamir, pro-Ram, Sanskrit and Aryan invasion: Here's what MPs … Scroll.in 27-Nov-15
11 Are you an Aryan invader? Colonial views on fair-skinned Aryans vs … Economic Times (blog) 16-Dec-15
12 When History Gets Political: India's Grand 'Aryan' Debate and the … The Diplomat 17-Aug-16
13 Even the greatest specialists have failed to prove the Aryan invasion … Scroll.in 26-Jan-17
14 RSS' custom babies and Hindutva theory of Aryans as the 'original …" The Indian Express 12-May-17
15 How genetics is settling the Aryan migration debate The Hindu 16-Jun-17
16 Where Did Indians' Ancient Ancestors Come From? The Indo-Aryan … Global Voices Online 21-Jun-17
17 Migrations, Yes; But 'Aryan' Migrations? Not Really Swarajya 25-Jun-17
18 Karan Johan says Aarambh is a huge game changer The Indian Express 25-Jun-17
19 Politics around Aryan Invasion Theory to stay as it helps defy the … Firstpost 27-Jun-17
20 Politics around Aryan Invasion Theory to stay as it helps defy the … Firstpost 27-Jun-17
21 Blood nationalism: Why does Hindutva perceive a mortal danger from the Aryan Migration Theory? Scroll.in 28-Jun-17
22 The problematics of genetics and the Aryan issue The Hindu 28-Jun-17
23 Aryan Invasion May Have Transformed India's Bronze-Age Population Live Science 06-Jul-17
24 Why Hindutva hates Aryan Invasion Theory BS (literally too) 07-Jul-17
25 Too early to settle the Aryan migration debate? The Hindu 12-Jul-17
26 Whose Hinduism Is It Anyway? The Right's 'Improved' Version or the … The Wire 14-Nov-17
27 Evidence against Aryan Invasion Theory Daily Excelsior 17-Feb-18
28 Evidence against Aryan Invasion Theory Daily Excelsior 17-Feb-18
29 What My DNA Says About India's History The Diplomat 14-Mar-18
30 Aryan migration: Everything you need to know about the new study on … Scroll.in 01-Apr-18
31 How a new study exposes Sangh's idea of ethnic and cultural 'purity ... DailyO 05-Apr-18
32 A new study squelches a treasured theory about Indians' origins The Economist 05-Apr-18
33 Dr Ambedkar rejected Aryan Invasion Theory with facts and logic OpIndia 06-Apr-18
34 Video: Who are Indians' ancestors? A new study on Aryan migration …" Scroll.in 09-Apr-18
35 Ambedkar Jayanti 2018: All you need to know about 'Architect of … The Indian Express 13-Apr-18
36 Dr Ambedkar: A Titan Secularist, Educationist and Social Reformer of … Mainstream 14-Apr-18
37 900-year drought wiped out Indus civilisation: IIT-Kharagpur Times of India 15-Apr-18
38 Ambedkar Versus His Apostles" The New Indian Express 18-Apr-18
39 Determining the Age of the Saraswat Community League Of India 20-Apr-18
40 Debate on Aryan migration vs Out-of-India theory unsettled Deccan Chronicle 21-Apr-18
41 What Reich's Study Says And Doesn't About How Indians Came To Be Swarajya 22-Apr-18
42 Why a new study on Indian genetics will rile the Hindutva brigade Newslaundry 28-Apr-18
43 View From The Right: Congress stains The Indian Express 01-May-18

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 14:26

shiv wrote:I have come to the conclusion that Comparative Linguistics is one of the most worthless things to have developed in 200 years. They have done nothing other than create dense, unreadable texts and have proven nothing, have explained nothing without cooking up facts of using circular logic. In the long term this entire bogus field must be exposed and take down.


Here is a thread of 6-7 Tweets expressing my views. Please see:
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/992638748515954689

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 05 May 2018 16:09

Some stuff on Phrygians: http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian.html
Interesting how all those peoples mentioned in the above ramble remembered that they came from somewhere else.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 16:44

A_Gupta wrote:Some stuff on Phrygians: http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian.html
Interesting how all those peoples mentioned in the above ramble remembered that they came from somewhere else.

The other thing is that the amount of language evidence available is very small. Just fragments You can see a hint of that in that link:
based upon data developed so far. It appears that we are dealing with a common language base that is close to Latin,

You have probably seen my graph of the relationship of 110 IE cognate words to 35 so called IE langauges. If not here it is
Image

See where Lydian, Phrygian, Thracian are? Why do they have only a 10% connection with an IE wordlist? There are two possibilities
1. The amount of text available is too small. If that is so it could mean that a larger amount of text would perhaps indicate reltionships to non IE languages as well. But linguists don't want that degree of honesty the bloody liars
or, alternatively
2. they have a large body of text but only 10% is related to a standard IE word list. That means 90% of the language is non IE

I do believe though that they have only fragmentary evidence and are simply dumping those languages into IE group.

Comparative Linguistics is the most chutiya faked field that we have fallen for. We are the idiots.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 16:53

And I am sure you have heard linguists pompously declare that physical proof or "attestation' is required for languages . Even Vagheesh declared how Greek and other European languages are attested.

OK then let there be no varying standards set by linguists. There is no "attestation" of Sanskrit in the 1000-1500 BC dates given by linguists . Sanskrit was attested "in physical form" only by 150 AD. Exclude Sanskrit from the list of old languages. At 150 AD it is very young - younger than old Persian, Younger than fekuAvestan

But see the knot that linguists have got themselves into? Both Avestan and Old Persian were created from a prior knowledge of Sanskrit. If you remove Sanskrit, Old Persian and fekuAvestan there is no more "Indo". No "Indo"-European" Let them find mother of European languages using Greek, Latin, Lydian, Thracian etc.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 05 May 2018 18:42

^^^ :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 18:58

Arun - specially for you, From Beekes Comparative Indo European Linguistics
https://archive.org/details/Comparative ... inguistics

Luwic
Seven languages are more closely related to each other, the Luwic languages.
Cuneiform Luwian is known from some 200 pieces of clay tablet from the Boğazköy
archive. Since many of these pieces are small, our knowledge of the language is rather
limited. Luwian was the language of the land Luwiya, which may have been situated
to the south of the Hittite core area.
Hieroglyphic Luwian (formerly called Hieroglyphic Hittite), was written in its
own hieroglyphic script which was in use from 1500 up to and including the eighth
century BC, after 1200 especially in the southeast of Turkey and in North Syria, in
city-states such as Carchemish. The texts in question were found inscribed in stone
(and on seals) (Ill. 8). The last few decades have seen a tremendous increase in our
knowledge of the hieroglyphic script and the Hieroglyphic Luwian grammar, which
nowadays makes it, after Hittite, the second best known Anatolian language.

Lycian also belongs to the Luwic group. Lycia is the ‘bump’ on the south coast of
Turkey, near Alanya. We possess 150 inscriptions or so from the fifth and the fourth
centuries B.C. written in thislanguage in an alphabet that isrelated to that of Greek. In
1973 a sizable inscription was discovered in Xanthos with a translation in Greek and
in Aramaic (a trilingual, thus). Much of this language still remains unclear, however.
In Lycia, we also find two inscriptions written in the Lycian alphabet, that contain
a related yet different language. This language is called Milyan, but we find the desig-
nation Lycian B as well (contrasting with ‘normal’ Lycian which then is called Lycian
A). Our understanding of these texts is extremely poor

Carian is the language of Caria, the area northwest of Lycia. It is known from
some 200 inscriptions, dating from the sixth to fifth century B.C., the majority of
which are actually found in Egypt, where Carians served as the pharaoh’s bodyguards.
Carian is written in its own alphabet, related to that of Greek, which nevertheless was
undeciphered till very recently. Only when in 1996 a bilingual inscription (Carian
— Greek) was discovered in Kaunos, a definite decipherment of (part of) the Carian
alphabet was possible. Our knowledge of Carian is still extremely limited, yet it seems
that also Carian belongs to the Luwic group.

Sidetic is known from only eight inscriptions from the area of Side, a city at the
south coast of Turkey. The inscriptions date from the third century B.C. and are writ-
ten in their own alphabet. Due to the limited number of inscriptions, our knowledge
of Sidetic is extremely limited as well.
Still this language seems to belong to the Luwic
group too.

Pisidian is the name given to some dozens of inscriptions from the area of Pisidia,
written in the Greek alphabet, and dating from the first or second century A.D. The
texts probably only contain names, some of which may show the genitive case ending
â•‚s, on the basis of which it is thought that Pisidian may belong to the Luwic group as
well.

d. Lydian
Lydian is the language of classical Lydia, situated in central western Anatolia. It is
attested on some 100 stone inscriptions in a native alphabet related to Greek, dating
from the eighth to third century BC, with a peak around the fifth and fourth century.
Most inscriptions stem from Sardis, the capital of Lydia. Although there are a few
bilingual texts (Lydian — Greek and Lydian — Aramaic), our knowledge of Lydian
is still rather small.
What we do know about the language, is that it stands quite apart
from the other Anatolian languages.

2.3.5 Phrygian
Phrygian (Map 4) is the language of the Phrygians, who lived in central Turkey. Its
capital, Gordion (120 miles southwest of Ankara), as well as its king, Midas, are well
known. We knowthe language from some two hundred inscriptionswritten in a Greek
alphabet from the eighth to the fourth centuries B.C. (Old Phrygian), and as many
from between the second and third centuries A.D. (New Phrygian) (Ill. 9). Much in
these inscriptions is unclear to us.
Phrygian is not one of the Anatolian languages.


Thracian
We have two inscriptions (one on the golden ring of Ezerovo, Ill. 12) in Thracian,
which was spoken in present-day Bulgaria and southern Romania, neither of which
we understand. We can only rely on glosses (individual words whose meanings have
been given) and names(and loan words in Rumanian), from which we can draw some
conclusions
about the development of its sounds. Perhaps we should make a distinc-
tion between Thracian and Dacian (in the north) (Map 6).

2.3.8 Macedonian
Macedonian (Map 6) presents us with even more severe problems than does Thra-
cian: we have nothing more to work with than a few glosses and names
. It seems to be
closely related to Greek.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2018 19:09

^^Do you see how linguistic mchods know next to nothing about so many languages but they simply include them among IE or cook up and "reconstruct" them to fit them into IE. The biggest and fake-est reconstructions have been done Using Sanskrit.

We have been taken for a ride too long. They set the agenda and we simply react as we are doing with genetics now. The foundations must be torn down and it is easy because there are so may holes

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Suresh S » 05 May 2018 19:14

Islam and christianty were able to conquer most lands quickly but one major culture fought them back tooth and nail. These invadors could not destroy Hindu religion and culture but they succeded in damaging it. But the foundation of Hinduism laid with the help of gods is so strong that it is intact inspite of all assaults. This fact must be highlighted by anyone who loves India even a little bit . It is our absolute duty. Inspite of thousands of yrs of attacks and murder and pillage, inspite of traitors within us, inspite of being a inward looking god seaking culture, inspite of being a culture that did not attack others, we were and will be attacked again and again in different ways now and in the future.

We owe it to our mother India and all who gave up everything to defend this holy land.

I salute Dr Shiv and all others on BRF and other forums for their contributions . This fight must go on till India rises once again to it,s rightful place in the world which is always at the top of the pyramid in Satyuga and in a dharmic world.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 05 May 2018 19:54

Might need to register to see this article; but the key points are:
https://www.genomeweb.com/scan/fewer-wh ... u29i8jaufc

The lack of diversity in genomic research is not exactly new news, of course, and a 2016 study in Nature found that 87 percent of participants in genomics research globally were of European descent.


Smithsonian also notes that the 87 percent figure is an improvement from a 96 percent figure calculated by Duke University researchers in 2009. But even that 87 percent number is open to scrutiny as most of the non-European representation is from studies conducted in China, Japan, and South Korea, and the increase in diversity didn't include other ethnic groups. People of African descent made up only 3 percent, and Hispanics didn't even reach 1 percent, one of the authors of the Nature study says.


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