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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 11 Sep 2019 23:36
by Supratik

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 12 Sep 2019 00:25
by Vips


India first Civilisation, Analysis by Vasant Shinde at Deccan College, Pune.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 12 Sep 2019 09:37
by Prem Kumar
^^
Good coverage. NewsX seems to be the only channel that gave the Rakhigarhi findings the attention it deserved!

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 14 Sep 2019 00:16
by Prem Kumar
Nice video about the Sanauli burial site discovery. Chariots in 2200 - 2000 BCE. With solid wheels. Engraved swords & world's first copper helmet!

Apparently 125 burials were found. I sincerely hope that they excavated carefully & were able to get aDNA from at least some of these.


Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 14 Sep 2019 03:16
by ramana
Shiv wrote a very good analysis of the findings and put it in Google Docs.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 14 Sep 2019 16:02
by Prem Kumar
Saw it Ramana. Nice takedown of the Linguistic fakery & the Salma-quotes-Sabrina syndrome

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 16 Sep 2019 19:03
by Rsatchi
https://youtu.be/7slCsPMsOSQ
Lo Ji
Mr Coupta with his 2-paisa analysis on Rakhigarhi DNA :lol:
A bit of time pass :D

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 16 Sep 2019 19:27
by Supratik
Read both papers briefly. The Indian side was bulldozed into mentioning that language may have come with the later Steppe migration. It is quite possible the Steppe migrants spoke IE but it could be merely round-tripping as IE may have moved to Steppe earlier through IVC cline. Similar to what happened with Sakas and Kushans who were IE but became Sanskritized. The presence of Steppe genes in Brahmins is highlighted as proof of this but the data has more non-Brahmin castes with Steppe genes. It could simply mean that the Steppe integrated mainly into upper castes and stayed in north India.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 17 Sep 2019 01:20
by Supratik
I forgot to add BMAC which they were confident was the homeland till a few years back has no gene flow to South Asia. It has now shifted to Yamnaya migration. My hunch is that it is probably true but has nothing to do with homeland. What the Indians need are more aDNA specially male ones.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 17 Sep 2019 01:41
by Prem Kumar
The "Aryans came from Central Asia" is yet another lie that was busted with Vasant Shinde's paper. If anything, per the latest paper, IVC DNA is found in Central Asia!

So, Vagheesh et al are coining a new term "Inner Asian Mountain corridor", as if its like a new Silk Route through which Aryans galloped on their horses. Central Asia is dropped like a hot-potato & Mountain Corridor is the new black!

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 17 Sep 2019 02:00
by Supratik
Another point. Reich says there cannot be a Indian homeland as there is no Andamanese in Europe. This can be explained as there were several migrations from both out of India and into India. The earlier IVC migrations out of India may have happened before Andamanese mixture. And god forbid if some day traces of Andamanese is found further up north.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 13:36
by Rsatchi
http://dailym.ai/1sqD1kh
Even britshit right wing rags picking up the story
Just like slowly changing from ‘Arabic Numerals ‘to Indic numerals realism dawning on goras that dharmic history older than they thought

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 13:45
by Rsatchi
https://twitter.com/i/status/1175083630785257472
And here you have Professor Emeritus saying Yudisthra had King Ashoka in mind in renouncing kingdom
Yane ki concept of Buddhism predate dharmic culture
Senility or pure hatred of ones roots!!!

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 15:59
by hanumadu
Talk by Dr Gyaneshwar Chaubey. Makes some very interesting claims to put it mildly.


Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 16:02
by hanumadu
In the Rakhigarhi aDNA paper, they examined a 4000 BCE skeleton and said that Indian and Iranians separated before 8000 BCE.
Why couldn't they have concluded the same thing by examining modern Indians and Iranians?

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 17:03
by hanumadu
At 12:30, Dr Chaubey says that David Riech does not sequence the whole genome but only parts of it. If a mutation is missed, then the whole Y-DNA gets messed up and that's why they have placed Indian branch of R1a under Europes.

A lady from Tatiana Karafet from University of Arizona studied the F haplo group and it is only present in Africa and South Asia and South East Asia. The haplogroup K which is a child of F originated in South East Asia. Haplogroup R is a child of K which means R must have traveled from South East Asia to the West. Using this reasoning, Chaubey and team studied 5000 DNA samples and he says that R1a originated in India.

He says that there is a common ancestor for the european branch of R1a and Indian branch of R1a (M780) but neither is a parent of the other, but the parent originated in India. He gives the examples of Chimpanzee and Humans. There is a common ancestor that gave rise to Chimpanzees and Humans but neither is a parent of other.

Highest diversity of R1a is found in Gangetic plains but highest frequency is found in south India. So he concludes R1a originated in gangetic plains.

He talks something about R*, but I didn't understand that part.

Added Later: The split between Indian and European R1a occured between 6K to 10K years before.
Added Later: All the branches from R1a to M780, the complete lineage of R dating from 20,000 years seem to be present in current Indians. If we have all the branches right from R1a in India itself, then it must have originated in India, according to Dr Chaubey.

PS. There seem to be large holes in Y DNA tree and larger and larger samples need to be studied to give a more accurate picture.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 17:28
by Supratik
The more ancient you go the less mixture you will get and therefore more clarity of origin you will get. Hence you study ancient DNA. Modern Indian or Iranian DNA will have the latter mixtures and hence less clarity.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 17:41
by Supratik
It should be Saraswati river and not Indus river in that article. The author seems confused which river.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 21:19
by Prem Kumar
Supratik wrote:Another point. Reich says there cannot be a Indian homeland as there is no Andamanese in Europe. This can be explained as there were several migrations from both out of India and into India. The earlier IVC migrations out of India may have happened before Andamanese mixture. And god forbid if some day traces of Andamanese is found further up north.


This is garbage from Reich. We have 1 aDNA samples so far. As we excavate more, we will find the OIT evidence. Our geneticists should also define specific Indian ancestries & map the European/Steppe/Central-Asian/Iranian populations against these.

A handful of scattered cultures in Europe & they split them into hajaar categories like CHG, EHG, West Steppe Hunter Gatherer etc etc. Imagine the number of Indian categories, given the depth of time our ancestry goes into & the geographical diversity.

This is typical Euro-trash approach. Make each of their small populations look like a major cartesian coordinate vector & play up their importance. But describe all of Africa as if its one town. Or call all of Indian subcontinent as Sooth Asia.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 21:33
by Prem Kumar
Here is an awesome slide from Dr. Chaubey's talk. Talks about how K* originated in Southeast Asia and how R* originated in India. He, Rai and others have analyzed 5000 samples from all over India, especially from the Himalayas. In Himalayas, they found people living today with R*!!

Per the image below and based on their analysis, Dr. Chaubey is stating that R* originated in the Himalayas.

Not only R*, they have found people with R1, R1a, R1a1 etc. Dr. Chaubey concludes that R & all its sub-clades have likely origin in India. A paper is upcoming & its going to be more burnol for the AIT camp

Image

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 21 Sep 2019 22:04
by Supratik
We have just scratched the surface in terms of archaeology. We don't know what is there in east, central and south India. Today itself a site came up in Tamil Nadu which says the Harappans moved as south as Tamil Nadu. This is because Indians have not invested in finding their origins and left it to the West to do it.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 22 Sep 2019 20:40
by Supratik

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 22 Sep 2019 22:48
by dinesh_kimar
Supratik wrote:This is because Indians have not invested in finding their origins and left it to the West to do it.


This is sadly true. Our ASI is one of the most inept organisations around.

Even places like UK and Thailand punch above their weight in history and culture.

Our heritage is a source of employment and revenue if managed properly.

The UK estimates that it earns about 7.3 billion GBP a year from its 20,000 monuments. (Much more than India, with Rs.70 crore revenue from top 10 sites.)

The UK developed a small ground penetrating radar to explore historic sites. They build scale models of historic sites, using highly skilled model makers. These people have even done work for ASI, who have many employees, but not many specialist skilled staff.

The West has built special clean rooms with UV light where ancient scrolls can be worked on, researched, scanned,etc.

I have read articles in newspaper, where they mentioned some Indian artefacts going to Europe for restoration.

The famous jewellery firm, Cartier's, have restored various artefacts of the Patiala royal family in the past.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 24 Sep 2019 08:26
by sudarshan
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-doe ... erivatives

How does Tamil literature and culture use the term Aryan and its derivatives?

The article claims "Iyer" is derived from "Arya." Also, the Tamil word "Ariya" which can also mean "noble" in a sense.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 24 Sep 2019 08:57
by ShyamSP
sudarshan wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-does-tamil-literature-and-culture-use-the-term-aryan-and-its-derivatives

How does Tamil literature and culture use the term Aryan and its derivatives?

The article claims "Iyer" is derived from "Arya." Also, the Tamil word "Ariya" which can also mean "noble" in a sense.


FYI.

In Telugu/South, Arya = Ayya. Ayya means/is used to address honorable man/sir/saab, any elder man, father, and husband. It is also in name endings. Ramaiah = Rama + Ayya which means Rama Arya (many male names in old days end with Ayya regardless of caste/kula/Jati/Varna they belong to)

Tamil caste name such as Iyer is derived from Ayya-varu (meaning Arya person) and Iyengar is from Ayya-Garu = Ayya Garulu = Arya Gauravaniya (Respectable Arya) - Garu in Telugu is short for Gauravaniyulu/Gauravaniya (Respectable)

Arya as it is used also in Telugu but for specific cases such as Acharya (Achar + Arya). Achari/Acharya is also used across the caste mainly by Brahmins (OCs)/Viswa Brahmins (craftsmen/Salis/OBCs)/Nayi Brahmins (barber/musicians/OBCs).

Only brainwashed people fell into Aryan-Dravidian obfuscation.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 24 Sep 2019 09:06
by sudarshan
ShyamSP wrote:FYI.

In Telugu/South, Arya = Ayya. Ayya means/is used to address honorable man/sir/saab, any elder man, father, and husband. It is also in name endings. Ramaiah = Rama + Ayya which means Rama Arya (many male names in old days end with Ayya regardless of caste/kula/Jati/Varna they belong to)

Tamil caste name such as Iyer is derived from Ayya-varu (meaning Arya person) and Iyengar is from Ayya-Garu = Ayya Garulu = Arya Gauravaniya (Respectable Arya) - Garu in Telugu is short for Gauravaniyulu/Gauravaniya (Respectable)

Arya as it is used also in Telugu but for specific cases such as Acharya (Achar + Arya). Achari/Acharya is also used across the caste mainly by Brahmins (OCs)/Viswa Brahmins (craftsmen/Salis/OBCs)/Nayi Brahmins (barber/musicians/OBCs).

Only brainwashed people fell into Aryan-Dravidian obfuscation.


Wow thanks, did not know about those connections from Tamil/ Telugu back to "Arya" in Sanskrit. Any references?

Ayya I know, now that I think of it, it is very similar to Arya (Aryaputra in Sanskrit). Wives used to refer to their husbands as "aryaputr" (noble one - not in the sense of aristocracy, but high ideals). The serial "Mahabharat" by B. R. Chopra used this word a lot. The Tamil translations of the serial used the word "arasa puttirar" ("royal son" - maybe means and is derived from the same word "arya").

And "Acharya" definitely sounds like it would trace back to "Arya."

I've also wondered about "Iyengar" before. There is this distinction of "vadagalai" vs. "thengalai" Iyengars (north-originating vs. south-originating) and the "namams" that the two sects wear on their foreheads are different. Would you know about the origin of that?

One of the comments to that article points out that "Dravida" is itself a Sanskrit word! Apparently derived from "Dravya" for all the medicinal plants along the eastern/ western ghats.

One blogger recently interpreted "Dravidam" as "Theera-vidam" (endless poison) for the spirit of India - that's what it has unfortunately become.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 24 Sep 2019 22:42
by Rony
Shrikant Talageri's Latest on Rakhigarhi and After

It is up to the geneticists who claim that the external origin of the Indo-European languages is not proved by the genetic evidence, to state, if possible in a joint statement, and definitely in writing, that Genetics can tell us about the different ancestral strands in any individual or population, but it cannot tell us about the languages spoken by the original carriers of those ancestral strands, and that that can only be shown by the linguistic, archaeological and textual data and evidence. Further, it is up to these geneticists to ask the other geneticists and non-geneticists, who are claiming that the "genetic evidence" proves this Indo-European expansion from the Steppes after 2000 BCE, to first disprove my chronological case for the Rigveda showing the date of the Old Rigveda to be far before 2500 BCE in a purely Indo-European environment within India in Haryana to the east of the Sarasvatī - without this, the "genetic evidence" is a big zero, and all discussion on this "genetic evidence" is pointless. This sane logic, and sane advice, has already been given by me umpteen times, but the vested interests can simply stonewall it, which they will not be able to do when these geneticists speak up. It is time people stopped playing safe and indulging in double-games and doublespeak, while all the time continuing to draw linguistic conclusions out of genetic data in defiance of and in direct contradiction to the linguistic, archaeological and textual data and evidence, and thereby muddying the waters and turning the whole discussion into a joke. The only casualty is the Truth.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 25 Sep 2019 23:46
by Supratik
ASI talk on Sanauli excavations.

https://youtu.be/jU5SMcKePp0

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 26 Sep 2019 07:28
by Primus
^

Extremely annoying background music going on all the time during his talk. Had to stop listening to it.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 26 Sep 2019 14:25
by banrjeer
Can any of you message me their email there’s an interesting opportunity for dna testing that will shed more light on these ongoing topics

I’m unable to contact people directly

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 26 Sep 2019 17:48
by Prem Kumar
It was just a Google search away :-)

Check this bio of Dr. Niraj Rai. It has his email address: http://www.bsip.res.in/scientist%20cv/Niraj%20Rai_CV_BSIP.pdf

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 26 Sep 2019 19:42
by banrjeer
Thanks, I meant other people in BR.

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 28 Sep 2019 06:27
by banrjeer
Dear all,

DNA ancestry research in India, both modern and ancient faces a funding crunch and some barriers.
Theres an opportunity to help.
If interested please reach out to vibhutibh00@gmail.com and he can provide further details.

Thanks

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Posted: 10 Oct 2019 23:45
by Supratik
Craniofacial reconstruction of Harappans from excavated skulls by computer tomography. This is how our ancestors the Harappans looked like 4500 years ago.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 512919.cms