India-US Relations : News and Discussion

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Prem
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India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 09 Aug 2014 10:37

Old One;last One; Puratan Page


India will help shape a new world order in 21st century: US
ChamcHindu Link: Bagel & Belna Bandhan

Describing India as one of the most significant countries in the world, U.S. Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel has said the world’s largest democracy will help shape a “new world order” that is emerging in this century. “When you look at the world today, and you’re all quite familiar with this, that India not only represents one of the most significant countries by any measurement in the world today, but will help shape a new world order that is emerging in this young century,” Mr. Hagel told reporters travelling with him to India.
“The relationship between the United States and India certainly for our interests, for U.S. interests, and I think for India’s interests, as well as the Asia Pacific, but also global interests, is important,” he said. “Where we can find common interests, where we can share areas that help promote our own countries’, our own economies’ stability, security, peace, trade, technology,” he said, adding that the point of his trip here is to take advantage of the opportunity to meet with a new Indian government. Recalling his last trip to India in 2008 as an American Senator, Mr. Hagel said, “In those meetings in 2008, it was pretty clear then that the potential for India and what they were evolving toward was going to be very important for our future.” “When you look at the region itself, South Asia, the instability that lies to the west of India, and a different kind of a world that lies to their east, and their south, and their north, they all represent different kinds of challenges for India,” he said. “The sooner we can find ways, the United States and India, to participate in these areas of mutual benefit and also concern, I think the better as we see this world that is uncertain and complicated and dangerous and unpredictable continue to evolve,” he said.
He said big power stability and big power security have always been important in the world and their importance is not going to be diminished over the next few years. Mr. Hagel said his current India trip is to acquaint himself with the ground realities and that he would be more in listening mode. “This is an opportune time to spend a couple of days here listening, learning, and getting acquainted,” Mr. Hagel said. “Are there interests in other areas? We are doing more than we’ve ever done military-to-military with India with joint exercises. We want to continue to build on those exercises. We’ll talk about where we can expand the potential for joint exercises,” he said. A supporter of the India-U.S. civilian nuclear deal, Mr. Hagel said power and energy are going to be a specifically important driving force for oil-developing economies, emerging economies and growing economies. “That opportunity that I thought that was important for many reasons that the Bush administration opened up was about one example of where I think different kinds of initiatives can be explored with these two large democracies, one being the largest democracy in the world and the other being the oldest democracy in the world,” he said. “So India and the United States begin with a pretty solid framework of general understanding, especially of democratic values and principles, and that’s not an insignificant starting point in foreign policy or foreign relations,” he said.
Last edited by Rahul M on 18 Aug 2014 12:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited title to more appropriate one.

ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2014 02:53

CUB in TOI;

India-US relations have come into focus against the backdrop of the two recent visits to Delhi of senior members of the Obama cabinet. US Secretary of State John Kerry and his colleague, Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel made the first high level political contact with the new Indian government to finalise the agenda for the Obama-Modi meeting scheduled for September in Washington DC.

Transformation

This bi-lateral relationship underwent a major transformation in late 2008 when the long festering nuclear nettle was resolved through a complex modus vivendi that accorded India an exceptional status in the global nuclear framework - and the deeply embedded 'estrangement' was expected to lead to progressively more robust engagement.

At the time, the UPA government led by the Congress included the left parties as part of the coalition and the nature of that debate is instructive. The US had provided India a rare opportunity for a geo-political and strategic accommodation which was in Delhi's abiding interest but the domestic political wrangling exuded little perspicacity. A zero-sum game ensued and neither the Congress, hobbled by the Left, nor the BJP in the opposition could evolve an objective and informed bi-partisan consensus on matters of deep politico-strategic import.


{What was the deep politico-strategic import on which the consensus was desired?}

But for the external interlocutor, even the possibility of a less prickly relationship between India and the US had the desired effect in enhancing Delhi's credibility. It may be recalled that India's strategic relevance rose-and within Asia, the nuances were felt from China and Japan through to West Asia. Yet at a time when the Indian boat seemed to be rising, the hand on the tiller wavered, the waters for sure roiled by the global financial turbulence of that period and rank political diffidence.

{The global financial turbulence was an undertow regardless of Indo-US consensus. So what are we saying? Besides Baru and natwar Singh have revealed that it was not diffidence but rank carelessness by the honorable MMS that led to the stasis.}

In the intervening years, the UPA II government and the Obama administration were differently distracted and much of the hope was belied. The low-point in the bi-lateral was the Devyani episode where an Indian diplomat was treated in an extremely inappropriate manner and many of the latent anti-US anxieties in India came to the surface.

{Per Indian definition of the act it is custodial rape and not just inappropriate manner. If we don't call it out for what it is the US will not be able to come to grips with the act and will repeat it.}


However to the credit of the two sides, quiet diplomacy has restored the relationship to a more even keel and the election of PM Modi has kindled fresh hope that the much needed political traction will be infused into what is a very critical bi-lateral. This hope flickered through the Kerry and Hagel visits despite that fact that India chose to stay outside the global trade facilitation agreement in that very week, much to US disappointment.

{India chose to stay out of the GTF as it needs to protect its farmers. The US does that by indirect permitted subsidies whcih it doesnt want India to have}


Divergence

A brief review would indicate that on the major political, trade-economic and security-strategic issues, it is more of dissonance than consensus that animates the bi-lateral relationship. From Russia and Ukraine, to Israel-Gaza and the WTO amongst other recent developments, it is evident that Delhi and Washington have divergent assessments about how these issues affect their core national interests and security.

Yet paradoxically, there is a correspondence over the central security concerns that each nation has prioritised. Over the last decade, both the US and India have flagged terrorism, non-state groups, deviant states, radical ideologies, weapons of mass destruction and the rise of China and have sought to either manage or contain these challenges - with limited success. Both have a shared interest in an equitable global trading system.

While the transactional element is no doubt the tangible indicator of the robustness of the bi-lateral - often quantified in trade, technology and related fiscal indicators, as also in empathetic portico-diplomatic engagement - the deeper relevance of India and the US to each other is existential.

US Secretary of State John Kerry with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.


A stable and mutually beneficial bi-lateral relationship is central to the management and realisation of the anxieties and aspirations respectively, of the two largest democracies notwithstanding their divisive, domestic socio-political constraints. This was at the core of the radical Bush imitative in July 2005 to recast the troubled bi-lateral in a more normative manner and PM Manmohan Singh at the time was able to stay the course despite the many handicaps and banana peels that threatened to derail the process.

Strategic

For India, a robust relationship with the US is more critical than it is for the latter. This is a reality that needs to be internalised in the Indian polity and the attempt to advance the relationship by stealth was a major shortcoming of the UPA government. The NDA under PM Modi has the template outlined by PM Vajpayee post May 1998 as a guide. The challenge is to build on this and the Kerry-Hagel visits augur well.

It would be misleading to infer that for India, realizing even a part of the much hyped potential for a more robust relationship with the US is a binary choice that will come at the expense of Moscow. India is currently in a favourable strategic orientation wherein all the major powers and clusters (such as the EMU and ASEAN) are supportive of a prosperous and credible India. The current dynamic of globalisation impels wide-spectrum engagement and subsumes complex contradictions. The China-Japan relationship is illustrative.

The too frequently invoked and hence diluted term 'strategic partnership' has become ubiquitous in the Indian context. But the reality is that Moscow has in the past and will in the near future have a distinctive relevance for Delhi. In like manner.

Improving ties with the US is not to be reduced to an anti-China posture. But there is little doubt that India's ability to engage with Beijing will be significantly enabled if it demonstrates the political confidence and clarity to pursue concurrent relationships notwithstanding their inherently contradictory texture. The ball is in the Modi court.

{On the contrary the ball is in the US court. US has acted malafide with India in many fora and even inside India it has spied on BJP which is not even in power. Moreover wikileaks shows it was discussing BJP with Congress party minions. So how to reconcile the bile it has put on display and doesn't even bother to hide it. It takes to hands to clap.}


The writer is a strategic analyst


I don't get what strategic thing that US will do for India? Right now the current administration is presiding over a divided house and is about to lose control of even the Senate in November. So there is no political consensus in US. From Eastern Europe (Ukraine) to North Africa(Libya) to West Asia (Syria and Iraq), US has set the whole region on fire and is pretending to be a disinterested observer.

Its like the sorcerer's apprentice run amok. So what is the point of the deep politico-strategic ties?

i would say let the November elections happen and see how much clout the Administration can wield. And then look at 2016 elections when the Democrats will suffer the UPA fate as they both have the same intellectual guides Labour Party in UK.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 10 Aug 2014 03:47

For India, a robust relationship with the US is more critical than it is for the latter. This is a reality that needs to be internalised in the Indian polity and the attempt to advance the relationship by stealth was a major shortcoming of the UPA government.


How can UPA advance the relationship by stealth when it signed the nuclear agreement with US. This is what Natwar singh was trying to say

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2014 05:33

The stealth was for some other sub-rosa agreements on weaponization.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 10 Aug 2014 05:39

^What's wrong with a transactional relationship?

I just don't get this 'partnership' fetish. At least, get the txn-al piece right, first. No?

Of course, unkil has been over (com) promising as usual. Support for UNSC, it seems. Hah. Support us for the NSG first, if you can, unkil garu.

Can't deny the fact that there exists a definite trust deficit in Indo-US relations now. Especially with revelations on the breaking India project coming to light, led by western non-state actors. Seems hard to believe unkil wants a strong India. Maybe they do, but they want a tame India even more.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Aug 2014 06:44

A strong tame India which can be driven berserk by the mahouth (Cong(I)) who would is wielding a sharp ankusha (radical extremist Islamists). The mahouth had a direct link to those who want to break India and get the jewel in the head of the elephant. They forgot that the elephant has long memories, long lived, outwardly slow but very intelligent.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby amritk » 10 Aug 2014 06:57

The USG itself is not a monolith (though almost universally composed of patriots), and further, the CIA and other shadow agencies work independently of the USG. Often they work to spite the President/elected USG it would seem.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Aug 2014 07:44

Media reports say that the hard-sell is for the Javelin ATGM to shoot down the Israeli Spike,with promises of developing even a "4th-gen" ATGM! Promises,promises...What has happened to the much vaunted NAG of the DRDO? No little squeak from that corner? Was all the tall talk of indigenisation being the priority earlier now being sacrificed at the altar of "good relations","strategic relationships",what?
Frankly,even the Apache order will impact somewhat upon the LCH.Once services know that their firang toys are "in the basket at checkout",with the credit cards being swiped,the interest in desi wares dissipates,evaporates,like dew in the sunshine,with the DPSU in Q resigned to enjoying their intense activity in developing tech demonstrators,as the Bard famously said..."signifying nothing".

The US's aim is to simply garner as much defence orders and thus by default manipulate the Indian defence policy to enveigle it into its "order of battle " in Asia.Just as we contributed millions to fight the white man's war in WW1 a 100 yrs. ago,so too are we being prepared for a similar role in the future,armed,equipped with Yanqui weaponry (at our cost) and directed to fight the Chinese.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 10 Aug 2014 07:51

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/isi ... CM.twitter

ISI plans to use US, UN to tar Modi

Pakistan's spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, in a series of meetings held in late July and early August, decided to "fire on the shoulders of the US and the UN" to tarnish the reputation of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. [b]Sources within London, New York and Geneva say that the plan is to ensure the further penetration by the ISI, and its auxiliary elements, of groups which will be used to paint India as a semi-fascist state. The aim is to convince the international community that Government of India is intolerant and neglectful of minorities, women and Dalits. The ISI is trying to ensure that the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) in Geneva begins discussion on a complaint, which the Pakistan agency expects will get filed this year. The complaint will be by the US-based Coalition Against Genocide (CAG) and will contain strictures against the Modi government. According to a Washington-based expert, "16 of the 47 key NGOs (forming the CAG) have received partial or complete funding from the ISI", directly or through channels in the Gulf Cooperation Council and friendly contacts in western countries. "Nine of the CAG's key NGOs have extensive linkages with the Pakistan-American community, which is riddled with ISI sympathisers." These NGOs are leading the charge against India.Although some effort has gone in the past to spotlight cases of anti-Sikh violence, the focus has shifted since the Narendra Modi-led NDA II government took office on 26 May. The effort now is to manufacture testimony and contrive evidence to show that India is a country where three human rights violations are rife. These are (i) violence against women (ii) human trafficking and (iii) "genocide" of Christians and Muslims, all of this by Hindus.

According to a London-based source, through its global network "the ISI has funded the travel of 247 individuals from India to Washington, Geneva and other capitals from 2007 to 2011". The purpose of such travel was to ensure that "testimony created and vetted in advance by ISI-linked individuals was given by such Indian nationals in the US Congress, the European Parliament and the UN Human Rights Council. Such assertions, the ISI colonels expect, will intensify already ongoing efforts to "depict India as a fascist state killing minorities and the disadvantaged in a systematic manner".The speed and depth of Modi's diplomacy towards the SAARC countries has alarmed the ISI, which for the past 16 years has watched Delhi's footprint become fainter and fainter in the region. "The warming of relations with Sri Lanka and Nepal has been particularly worrisome for the colonels in the ISI", warned a London-based analyst, adding that "even worse is the fact that the public in both countries is now becoming more India-friendly". According to his colleague, "the warmth with which Modi's diplomacy was greeted by the Sinhala majority in Sri Lanka (which till now has been wary of India) and the cordiality with which even the Maoists greeted the Indian PM while he was in Kathmandu has sounded a warning to the ISI", which till now has found a welcome mat in both countries, largely because of the distaste of large sections of the population towards India, the Buddhist majority in Sri Lanka and the Maoists in Nepal.

A key official in Geneva warns that "since 26 May 2014, individuals across India are being located by ISI cutouts". These are those willing to present "black" (i.e. manufactured) testimony on the three human rights issues mentioned earlier. Another source from the same location claimed that "a mass grave relating to the Khalistan insurgency, which contained more than 50 bodies had been discovered in 2011 in Haryana" but that "the US administration had ensured that this be suppressed, as it did not want to embarrass the Congress Party", which was in power in both the state as well as at the national level (when the incident was alleged to have taken place). Systematic efforts spread over years to discover mass graves of Muslims in Gujarat were abandoned in 2011 as futile, clearly because none existed.These sources say that the objective of the ISI's operation is to "character assassinate Prime Minister Modi by making NGOs penetrated by the ISI and its auxiliaries ensure that issues of genocide, violence against women, discrimination against Dalits and human trafficking enter the formal agenda of the UNHRC by mid-2015 at the latest". Efforts directed at the US Congress and the European Parliament have also been intensified. A source said that the UK-based Channel 4 "will soon air a documentary about Singrauli in India", which will paint the Modi government as being intolerant. Two individuals were named in this context, Krishan Gopal and Hugo Ward. However, these assertions could not be independently verified."The sizeable pro-Pakistan lobby in the US State Department and the Cold War residue of anti-India policymakers are working together with elements in contact with the ISI to ensure that hearings take place on Capitol Hill by mid-2015 at the latest that would bring together dozens of individuals with a coordinated message, that India is a hell on earth for minorities, women and Dalits", according to a London source. The source adds that the ISI has a budget of $34 million to fund (through hidden affiliates) the stay and travel of the more than 300 individuals from India who have been selected to present perspectives before these organisations.
It may be remembered that much of the funding for such "black" operations comes from the narcotics trade and from printing counterfeit currency, especially Indian rupees. Sources in Washington warn that the ISI, along with the pro-Pakistan lobby and its allies of convenience amongst religious fundamentalists in the US, angered by various anti-conversion laws "has enough influence to ensure that staffers on Capitol Hill and agencies such as the US Commission on Religious Freedom (USCIRF), the European Parliament or the Geneva-based human rights organisations call only those who present a negative view on the Modi government", a key official predicted, adding that "at such hearings, the other point of view is never heard".
Another tack agreed upon by the ISI colonels at the meetings was to ensure that more cases get filed in US courts against key political figures in India (connected with the Union government) on the grounds of human rights abuses. Such a process has become possible because of the extra-territorial International Religious Freedom Act (IRFA) passed by the US Congress a decade ago. This law gives US courts the power to accept a complaint from a national of any country against the leader of any other country, and is an extraordinary example of the way in which the US Congress believes itself to be the successor to the British Empire, "where the sun never set". Interestingly, India has been lumped together with Afghanistan and Russia as a Tier 2 country under the law, rather than a Tier 1 country that (US authorities hold) upholds religious freedom. In a Tier 2 country, violations of religious freedom are held to be present in two of the following three heads: "systematic, egregious and ongoing", and placing a country under such a watch-list may open the door for sanctions against it by the US.
While US President Barack Obama rolls out the red carpet for Prime Minister Modi, the colonels in the ISI are looking towards other branches of government in the US to go into overdrive in the coming months against the NDA government on the issue of rights and freedoms. They are also mining their contacts to ensure that similar allegations against India get taken up in the European Parliament and at Geneva. In this task, they have the advantage of years of penetration of NGOs dealing with such matters in the US and European capitals, groups that have scarcely received attention in India, although they fund the stay and travel of hundreds of Indian nationals each year on missions to caricature this country as a state which systematically discriminates against minorities, women and the underprivileged."The ISI plan is to ensure that a torrent of negative hearings take place in Washington, Brussels and Geneva by mid-2015, so that the diplomatic outreach of the Modi government can be blunted", the London-based source warned, adding that "thus far, Indian officialdom has concentrated on its peers rather than the broader civil society, where the ISI has been much more successful in gaining access and influence", ironically, especially in those dealing with human rights.[/b]

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 10 Aug 2014 10:56

"Understanding the Us" thread is locked, so not sure where else to post this:

The following report has a direct parallel with the spoken Sanskrit movement afoot in India and among the Indian diaspora.

Spoken Latin: A modern remedy for the nation’s age-old reading problems?
Many forward-thinking educators, including several in Washington, are advocating “active Latin” — learning to converse in Latin, singing Latin songs and playing Latin games with students, and even designing immersion Latin curricula. They think kids should not only be able to read a dead language but also order lunch in it — including kids who are struggling to compose a grammatical sentence in English. Claudia Bezaka, world languages program coordinator for D.C. Public Schools, thinks Latin could “be a game changer, in terms of the literacy of the students.” Bezaka, who believes in integrating classical with contemporary language teaching, calls Latin “the great equalizer,” a tongue that children from diverse backgrounds can tackle on equal footing, ab initio. From the word go.

Think about that: taking an ancient language associated with the academic elite and reviving it as a remedy for the nation’s reading problems.

Richard Trogisch, principal of the School Without Walls in Northwest, has picked up Bezaka’s philosophy and run with it. Trogisch knows all the old arguments for learning Latin — that it helps with logical thinking, getting a better grasp of English grammar and vocabulary, conquering the SATs (and doing well in spelling bees).

Having seen its benefits in Europe and in other American schools, Trogisch made Latin a requirement for every one of the 310 kids — including special ed students — from pre-K through eighth grade at his Title I school. Last year, he hired two instructors to teach those children spoken Latin. (As Bezaka points out, you can’t teach preliterate children a purely written language, anyway. Bene dictum!)

“The kids in the preschool love Latin,” says Trogisch, and “react more positively than to Spanish,” which was taught before.

Four-year-old Theo Roy is one of the School Without Walls’s young cognoscenti of the classics. He knows that the lightning bolts in Washington’s summer skies come from the god Jupiter and has tips on how to outsmart a Gorgon (use a mirror). He tells his father, Chris Sondreal, the Latin words for farm animals like porcus and vacca (a clue to the critical role that cows played in the development of vaccines).

There are similar Latin language movements afoot in schools around Baltimore and in New York, Bezaka says...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2014 20:20

Goals and Objectives of the three players:

US wants to be the pre-eminent power for ever and ever. Inherit the mantle of British Empire for at least next five hundred years-Churchill goal thwarted by WWII.

China wants to dislodge the US and has world beating ambition.

India wants economic prosperity and security for its citizens. No world beating ambition.

Constraints:

US:
- US is economically tied to China while being the predominant military, political and economic power.
- Because of its economic dependence, US doesn't want India to be a real threat to China.
-The US financial meltdown has led to severe erosion of economic power. The recovery is partial and only in the banking sector with massive infusion of Federal debt. China holds quite a large amount of that debt.
-Politically US is fractured with lack of clarity in foreign affairs from Eastern Europe to North Africa to West Asia and Af-Pak.
-US does not trust India and seeks to impose technological constraints perpetually. The constraint is lifted only if India already develops the technology to kill local initiative.
- US has a divided house with President and Congress of different parties. The Senate could also slip away in 2014 elections. This is due to the stasis at Main Street level while Wall Street is a roaring success. So six years of lost progress for Main Street drives the change.
- Obama -2 is like UPA-2 to put it in simple terms. Every aspect is like MMS's hand running the US.

China:
- Chinese economy is distorted with export oriented capacity.
- Chinese local consumption is slow to build up
- China military is modernizing at slow pace and not at same rate as political and economy are moving.
-Sinkiang- Uighur are becoming a problem with Islamic fundamentalism driving nationalist ambitions.
-Political reforms are needed to transform China from Communist ideology to reflect reality. Tian Mein Square protests and crackdown were a bow-shot.


India:
- Indian economy and society is just recovering from ten years of stasis with UPA inaction in every sphere of activity.
- Indian military modernization has akin a ten year checked out system.
- Indian media and opinion makers are not in sync with public mood and political reality. They are still acting as UPA is still a force to reckon with.
-Wiki and Snowden have shown the deep penetration of the political and media systems in India.
-India needs tot create new friends at least less enemies in the neighborhood and then the outer ring.
- Indian economy needs high technology in manufacturing machines, cyber IT and ports infrastructure. All this needs capital and technology inputs.

We can think of solutions later to achieve the goals.
----BTW fromm CUB:

gustaaki maaf endukandi....?
as always....your f/b is valuable....
.........
my wish-list is maritime-cyber-space.....
access to the higher end of technology-manufacturing-regulation....

agree re. obama 2 being similar to upa 2.....
which i had alluded to in my kerry piece....
will send....if u have not seen
india abroad had carried it.....


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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Aug 2014 23:50

V. well put Ramana.Therefore the first duty of the new regime is to protect the centre from infiltration and batten hatches of all intel agencies to prevent infiltration.Step two,to root out anti-national entities,individuals and groups,quislings,NGOs ,etc.,from influencing the decision-making circle. All arms of the govt. should shut out the penetration and easy access that foreign entities have enjoyed.Strict protocol to be observed. The "Snoopgate" issue is a most serious one. Cybersecurity esp. communications is essential.WW2 was one primarily because the Brtis had broken the German code and the US the Japanese code.They both knew exactly what was being planned and even allowed casualties to take place in some ops so as not to allow the Axis forces to realise that the codes were broken.

While we need to engage with the US primarily for economic reasons,in strategic affairs we must retain our independence in foreign policy and defence. Just as the US has engineered the Sunni vs Shia wars in the MEast,so too must we beware of being drawn into a conflict with China,which will beggar both nations,and ensure the pre-eminence of the US and its lackeys in the Asia-Pacific.

India is the biggest threat to the US's plan of world dominance in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region,as we are the world's largest democracy,whose leaders enjoy unmatched legitimacy thanks to the finest ,freest electoral system in the world,a massive market of a billion+,which can generate growth even independent of major export income,and a most disciplined and potent military that has proved its worth all over the world,from WW1 onwards. Should India desire to take up a greater leadership role in Asia,which owes much of its religious-cultural heritage to Indian influence and origin,the US with its colonial and imperialistic mentality would fall from favour inevitably.That the NAM movement existed,and was a force of its own during the Cold War bringing all the developing nations of Asia and Africa and the Americas into one entity,shows that it could still be used as a potent force if the new CWar being nurtured in Europe over the UKR crisis,worsens.The establishment of the BRICS bank is another pointer to the "winds of change" blowing from the Americas, through Africa across EurAsia.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 11 Aug 2014 08:32

one astute point by Ramana ji above is that US doesn't want any serious threats to China because of their heavy investments there.

this is undoubtedly true. even tech/logistics businesses in the $100-$500 mil. range now have serious investments in PRC. also, per the volume/revenues of their offices in China, American Business considers China to be the golden-egg-laying-goose of the future.

even in niche industrial tech (non-high volume) companies, orders directly from top management are that "new expansion" and "emerging markets" is essentially about PRC. and more often that not, we are told openly not to 'divert' resources that go into expansion-related activities in PRC.

make absolutely no mistake about it: PRC has positioned itself very well in the American commercial-instinct-driven value hierarchy.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 11 Aug 2014 08:51

DeveshJi, you and RamanaGaru articulate the PRC US symbiotic relationship well, but what puzzles me is the public demonization of PRC by US. And make no mistake, this has a visible effect on aam junta, they do consider PRC as a "threat". What is Uncle's game here? Why the public brouhaha to the extent that his people are brainwashed into thinking PRC is enemy when in fact PRC is a bed mate?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 Aug 2014 11:35

Heh.

Image

Well, caveat is that even if you are nice to amrika, no guarantees democracy won't be parachuted into your underpants...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 11 Aug 2014 12:11

devesh wrote:one astute point by Ramana ji above is that US doesn't want any serious threats to China because of their heavy investments there.

this is undoubtedly true. even tech/logistics businesses in the $100-$500 mil. range now have serious investments in PRC. also, per the volume/revenues of their offices in China, American Business considers China to be the golden-egg-laying-goose of the future.

even in niche industrial tech (non-high volume) companies, orders directly from top management are that "new expansion" and "emerging markets" is essentially about PRC. and more often that not, we are told openly not to 'divert' resources that go into expansion-related activities in PRC.

make absolutely no mistake about it: PRC has positioned itself very well in the American commercial-instinct-driven value hierarchy.


I agree, China is a preferred provider of slave labour to USA.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Aug 2014 20:30

CRamS wrote:DeveshJi, you and RamanaGaru articulate the PRC US symbiotic relationship well, but what puzzles me is the public demonization of PRC by US. And make no mistake, this has a visible effect on aam junta, they do consider PRC as a "threat". What is Uncle's game here? Why the public brouhaha to the extent that his people are brainwashed into thinking PRC is enemy when in fact PRC is a bed mate?



How long have you been in US! The maxim is "go by what they do than by what they say!"

And read books on Nixon where he clearly sates why he opened up to China. Essentially Vietnam bankrupted the US economically (they did not rise taxes to fund the war), morally as it was the worng war, and socially as people lost trust in leaders. So he had to come to terms with FSU and split the PRC away from FSU. he offered them a way ot of the poverty by creating an opening which Mao did not take but Deng did after facing the Tien An Mein Square moment of truth. They literally feared a Caucescu moment for the leaders.

Despite all the hype, US was and is playing a balance of power strategy and not the strategy of a great power. A great power will do what it wants to and not say one thing and do another thing. Read Paul Kennedy to get more gnan.


US public needs an enemy to be motivated or else they will take it easy.


Its a Dar ul Harb economy.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 12 Aug 2014 00:22

White Students No Longer the Majority in U.S Public Schools

For the first time, U.S. public schools are projected this fall to have more minority students than non-Hispanic whites, a shift largely fueled by growth in the number of Hispanic children.

The changing demographics of American education are apparent inside Jane Cornell's summer school classroom in Pennsylvania's wealthiest county, where giggling grade-schoolers mostly come from homes where Spanish is the primary language. The sign outside the classroom reads "Welcome" and "Bienvenidos" in polished handwriting.

Non-Hispanic white students are still expected to be the largest racial group in the public schools this year at 49.8 percent. But according to the National Center for Education Statistics, minority students, when added together, will now make up the majority.

About one-quarter of the minority students are Hispanic, 15 percent are black and 5 percent are Asian and Pacific Islanders. Biracial students and Native Americans make up an even smaller share of the minority student population.

The shift brings new academic realities, such as the need for more English language instruction, and cultural ones, such as changing school lunch menus to reflect students' tastes.

But it also brings up some complex societal questions that often fall to school systems to address, including issues of immigration, poverty, diversity and inequity.

The result, at times, is racial tension.


In Louisiana in July, Jefferson Parish public school administrators reached an agreement with the federal government to end an investigation into discrimination against English-language learners. In May, police had to be called to help break up a fight between Hispanic and black students at a school in Streamwood, Illinois, a Chicago suburb, after a racially-based lunchroom brawl got out of control.

Issues of race and ethnicity in schools also can be more subtle.

In Pennsylvania's Kennett Consolidated School District, Superintendent Barry Tomasetti described parents who opt to send their kids to private schools in Delaware after touring diverse classrooms. Other families, he said, seek out the district's diverse schools "because they realize it's not a homogenous world out there."

The changes in the district from mostly middle-to-upper class white to about 40 percent Hispanic was in part driven by workers migrating from Mexico and other countries to work the mushroom farms.

"We like our diversity," Tomasetti said, even as he acknowledged the cost. He has had to hire English-language instructors and translators for parent-teacher conferences. He has cobbled money together to provide summer school for many young English-language learners who need extra reading and math support.

"Our expectation is all of our kids succeed," he said.

The new majority-minority status of America's schools mirrors a change that is coming for the nation as a whole. The Census Bureau estimates that the country's population also will have more minorities than whites for the first time in 2043, a result of higher birth rates among Hispanics and a stagnating or declining birth rate among blacks, whites and Asians.

Even as the population becomes more diverse, schools are becoming more racially divided, reflecting U.S. housing patterns.


The disparities are evident even in the youngest of black, Hispanic and Native American children, who on average enter kindergarten academically behind their white and Asian peers. They are more likely to attend failing schools and face harsher school discipline.

Later, they have lower standardized test scores, on average, fewer opportunities to take advanced classes, and are less likely to graduate.


As the school age population has become more nonwhite, it's also become poorer, said Patricia Gandara, co-director of the Civil Rights Project at UCLA who serves on President Barack Obama's advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for Hispanics.

Roughly one-quarter of Hispanics and African-Americans live below the poverty line - meaning a family of four has nearly $24,000 in annual income - and some of the poorest Hispanic children are dealing with the instability of being in the country illegally or with a parent who is, Gandara said.

Focusing on teacher preparation and stronger curriculum is "not going to get us anywhere unless we pay attention to the really basic needs of these children, things like nutrition and health and safety, and the instability of the homes," she said.

This transformation in school goes beyond just educating the children. Educators said their parents also must feel comfortable and accepted in schools.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Victor » 12 Aug 2014 06:12

Regarding US not wanting India to threaten China because of its dependency, here is a different take: The US may be looking for India to actively neutralize China and eventually replace it as a source of goods, services and manpower to a much higher degree than China is doing currently.
* China will not remain the source of lowest cost or most efficient labor forever and the only other country that has the depth to replace it is India. As far as the Americans are concerned, the sooner the better, which is good for India.
* Manufacturing a warlike situation with China like today's Russia-Ukraine situation can allow the US to "freeze" Chinese assets and disown debts. Eg. right now, Ukraine/Holland can go to ICJ and sue Russia for trillions for loss of life etc. Good luck to Russia (or China, or India) with such a stunt.
* The poles are Russia, US, China and India. US wants India to be on its side.
* With the populations of both the US and China aging far more rapidly than India's, the future is India's and the US knows it.
* Since Breaking India has more or less failed after a decades-long effort, the best thing to do now is make peace and help India rather than reap the wind. A lot of damage has been done and they will keep trying but it has failed spectacularly and the ricochet will hurt them.
* The fires started from Iraq to Libya and Syria are to usurp oil. Even Ukraine is about oil from CA but the Russians are blocking the way. China stands to suffer a lot and is now being thrown closer to Russia and vice versa with oil being the glue.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 13 Aug 2014 17:53

Hope this is the right thread for this. But I once met this guy, Manjul Bhargava at a music concert in Princeton, NJ, awesome achievement in winning the prestigious fields medal in Math:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-28768040

I assume DDM will now go berserk with this news :-).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby V_Raman » 14 Aug 2014 08:03

Hari Seldon wrote:Heh.

Image

Well, caveat is that even if you are nice to amrika, no guarantees democracy won't be parachuted into your underpants...


This democracy seems to be the biggest problem USA has with India. There model for other countries cannot be applied to India. What to do... What to do...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Aug 2014 08:25

They have a plan - instigate hindu majority in India into losing their cool and go berserk like those in the middle east (nay - west asia). I ferevently hope hindus do not act against their core belief of tolerance whatever the provocation.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 14 Aug 2014 21:16

I am posting this only to show that when you control information, you can put out the narrative you want. Now, we all know about the execution style shooting of an unarmed black kid by white cops in Fergusson, MO. But look at the skillful propaganda put out by US media, a white cop enjoyment a little playful time with black kids. Message: how can one of "us" shoot a black kid, its "un American", this is the real "us"

http://news.yahoo.com/video/kansas-city ... 14581.html

Very similar to the most more sophisticated humiliation of Modi. Showing how much care for the Muslims of "South Asia".

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 14 Aug 2014 21:49


Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Aug 2014 22:01

The number got decimated eight times.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 14 Aug 2014 22:25

matrimc wrote:The number got decimated eight times.


Just a nitpick -- got decimated 1.8 times (100K to 1300).
Decimation => 1/10th.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 15 Aug 2014 02:53

No. The original use of decimation was to indicate a decrease of 10%, i..e 100% becomes 90%. It is supposed to be a devastating unrecoverable blow to the losing side. Losing 90% is a massacre with no quarters given to fleeing soldiers.

Here is Wikipedia link - looks like it is a punishment dealt out to mutineers in Roman army.

Decimation (Roman army)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Decimated)


Decimation. Etching by William Hogarth in Beaver's Roman Military Punishments (1725)
Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem = "ten") was a form of military discipline used by senior commanders in the Roman Army to punish units or large groups guilty of capital offences such as mutiny or desertion. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth".[1] The procedure was a pragmatic, yet vicious, attempt to balance the need to punish serious offences with the practicalities of dealing with a large group of offenders.[2]

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 15 Aug 2014 04:08

The British army used decimation also, to deal with indisciplinein a unit. They will belined up, then every 10th person pulled out and shot.

We use this word too liberally, and incorrectly, nowadays.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 15 Aug 2014 04:40

svinayak wrote:http://m.outlookindia.com/news/article/SFJs-AntiModi-Petition-Signatories-Reduced-to-1300/855242/?maneref=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FeTdcdbjMu5

Anti modimpetition number reduced


was surely surprised at the rapid climb of numbers. Now it is fake.
what a farce.these osieaules dont have any other work. wonder who gives money for all these.
cant stop :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 15 Aug 2014 04:41

Kakkaji wrote:The British army used decimation also, to deal with indisciplinein a unit. They will belined up, then every 10th person pulled out and shot.

We use this word too liberally, and incorrectly, nowadays.


I don't know where you got that idea. It came from Romans actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 15 Aug 2014 04:52

TSJones wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:The British army used decimation also, to deal with indisciplinein a unit. They will belined up, then every 10th person pulled out and shot.

We use this word too liberally, and incorrectly, nowadays.


I don't know where you got that idea. It came from Romans actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)


If you read what Kakkaji read slowly, you will realize that he never said Decimation came from British, just that "the British army used decimation also"

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby disha » 15 Aug 2014 05:01

svinayak wrote:http://m.outlookindia.com/news/article/SFJs-AntiModi-Petition-Signatories-Reduced-to-1300/855242/?maneref=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FeTdcdbjMu5

Anti modimpetition number reduced


From >100k to @1.3k., I think White House has sold the Khalistani and Bakistani causes for short term gains and the CIA has sabotaged the efforts of the petition. I think the petition has failed to reach a wider audience in CONgIs, Bakistanis and Turkey.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 15 Aug 2014 05:01

putnanja wrote:If you read what Kakkaji read slowly, you will realize that he never said Decimation came from British, just that "the British army used decimation also"


please cite an instance where they used decimation. That is to say they lined up people and killed every tenth person. thanks in advance.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 15 Aug 2014 05:37

matrimc wrote:No. The original use of decimation was to indicate a decrease of 10%, i..e 100% becomes 90%. It is supposed to be a devastating unrecoverable blow to the losing side. Losing 90% is a massacre with no quarters given to fleeing soldiers.

Here is Wikipedia link - looks like it is a punishment dealt out to mutineers in Roman army.


You are right about the origin: removing 1/10th as opposed to leaving 1/10th, though nobody uses the word decimation when something gets reduced by 10%. Even you didn't used it that way. By that definition, 100K when decimated 8 times becomes 43K. (100K * (0.9 ^ 8 )).

I guess enough of OT.
Last edited by a_bharat on 15 Aug 2014 05:45, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 15 Aug 2014 05:37

Are we not understanding the US separately now? There is still much need.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 05:43

AoA! U mean they self-destructed without help from Abdul Bin Kabul, Dr. Semili Terate, Dr. Weigh Poo etc? :((

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 15 Aug 2014 09:23

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08 ... i-a14.html
India and US to further expand military-strategic ties


India and the United States decided to further expand their already close military-strategic ties during a visit to New Delhi last week by US Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel.During his three-day visit, Hagel held talks with the leading personnel in India’s new Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led government, including Prime Minister Narendra Modi, External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj, National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, and Arun Jaitley, who doubles as finance and defense minister.Hagel and Jaitley also decided to move forward with implementation of the Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI). Under this 2012 agreement, the US has offered to partner with India in the production of some high-technology weapons and weapons-systems with the stated aim of fostering an Indo-US “global strategic partnership.”Speaking last Saturday at an event organized by the Observer Research Foundation, Hagel proclaimed the DTTI “the centerpiece of our defense relationship.” He went on to claim that the military co-development and co-production deals Washington is offering New Delhi are unlike those the US has with “any other country.”The US has reportedly offered to work with India in jointly developing seven military technologies, and, according to Hagel, has placed “over a dozen concrete proposals” on the table.According to news reports, Washington’s proposals include manufacture of the US Javelin anti-tank missile in India and co-development of the next-generation of Javelin missile, co-production of the Hawk 21 surface-to-air missile, and collaboration on developing magnetic catapults, which help larger planes take off from smaller ships.The US, which has sold India $10 billion worth of arms over the last decade, is eager to expand military sales to India—currently the world’s largest arms importer.But the prominence the US is giving to the DTTI underscores that strategic questions are uppermost in the minds of Obama administration and Pentagon officials.The US has been aggressively courting India for more than a decade with the aim of building it up as a strategic counterweight to China and making New Delhi a pivotal link in its drive to isolate and strategically encircle China.By offering India co-production deals for advanced weapons systems, the US is seeking to promote closer integration of the US and Indian militaries as part of a broader thrust of military-strategic, economic and diplomatic initiatives aimed at harnessing India to Washington’s predatory strategic agenda.Hagel himself made reference to this agenda during his India visit, while seeking to obscure its aggressive and provocative character.The US defense secretary crowed that “today as India looks East and the U.S. rebalances” towards Asia—i.e., shifts the preponderance of its military power to the Indo-Pacific region—the two countries “are aligning more closely than ever.”

Later, however, he brazenly claimed that the US’s push for closer military-strategic ties with India is not directed against China. India, claimed Hagel, need not choose “between closer partnership with America and improved ties with China,” just as the US “need not choose between its Asian alliances and a constructive relationship with China.”US imperialism’s strategic focus on India has been driven by its concerns about a rising China. However, the rapid escalation of Washington’s conflicts with Russia has added a new dimension, especially to the US push for arms sales and co-production agreements with India.US successes on this front would largely come at Russia’s expense, since Russia has long been India’s most important arms supplier and this military partnership has, at least since the end of the Cold War, formed the bedrock of close ties between Moscow and New Delhi.While Hagel made no public call for India to distance itself from Moscow, he did urge New Delhi to bolster trilateral co-operation with Japan, the US’s most important Asian ally. “India and the US should consider expanding their trilateral security cooperation with Japan,” declared the US defense secretary. “We should have trilateral defense cooperation at the ministerial level.”

Hagel’s talks with Modi reportedly focused on strategic geo-political issues, including the situation in Iraq, where the US has resumed direct military intervention, and Afghanistan, where New Delhi, with Washington’s support, has emerged as a pillar of the US-installed government.The Indian Defence Ministry is said to be evaluating Washington’s proposal for co-production of the Javelin missile and is close to finalizing a $US1.4 billion deal to buy at least 22 US Apache and 15 Chinook helicopters.In his talks with Hagel, Modi reportedly stressed the importance of the US making good on its promises of “advanced technological transfer” in any military co-production deals. A press release from his office, said Modi has “underlined the importance of defense relations in the overall” Indo-US “strategic partnership” and his “desire to see progress in … defense manufacturing” and “technology transfer,” as well as expanded joint military exercises and strategic studies.While the BJP-led government and the Indian military-security establishment are anxious to take advantage of the US offer of military co-production, there are concerns that Washington will use its role as a supplier to the Indian military as leverage to make New Delhi toe its line on key strategic and geo-political issues.That said, big business and the military-security establishment were angered by the failure of the previous Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) to proceed with any of the co-production deals the US has offered under the DTTI. When Hagel had a roundtable session with India Inc. last Saturday evening, industry representatives complained that, in contradistinction to the current Modi-led government, the UPA kept the Indian private sector at a distance from the DTTI.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 15 Aug 2014 11:18

TSJones wrote:
putnanja wrote:If you read what Kakkaji read slowly, you will realize that he never said Decimation came from British, just that "the British army used decimation also"


please cite an instance where they used decimation. That is to say they lined up people and killed every tenth person. thanks in advance.


Did a quick google and found an instance mentioned here "The British Army: Its Origin, Progress, and Equipment, Volume 1" Pg 337.
Interesting...the other instances that showed up are Italians in WW2 and of course the Romans.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rajrang » 15 Aug 2014 16:43

CRamS wrote:I am posting this only to show that when you control information, you can put out the narrative you want. Now, we all know about the execution style shooting of an unarmed black kid by white cops in Fergusson, MO. But look at the skillful propaganda put out by US media, a white cop enjoyment a little playful time with black kids. Message: how can one of "us" shoot a black kid, its "un American", this is the real "us"

http://news.yahoo.com/video/kansas-city ... 14581.html

Very similar to the most more sophisticated humiliation of Modi. Showing how much care for the Muslims of "South Asia".



Another reason for the appearance of someone "controlling information," could simply be that American public opinion has a "cultural tendency" try to stay aligned with their Government on policies far more than in India, especially when under the spotlight of the rest of the world. Culturally America is still largely northern European in nature (remember the German tendency to follow orders, i.e. toe the line or is it going with the flow?) in spite of being a very multiracial and multi-everything country.

Regarding Modi or even Khobragade, honestly, I am clueless to offer any thoughts. Makes no sense for American interests. But this is not the first time that America has done something that does not help its self interests. In that sense perhaps India and the US are similar.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SanjayC » 15 Aug 2014 17:06

matrimc wrote:No. The original use of decimation was to indicate a decrease of 10%, i..e 100% becomes 90%. It is supposed to be a devastating unrecoverable blow to the losing side. Losing 90% is a massacre with no quarters given to fleeing soldiers.


AFAIK, the Roman practice of decimation was a punishment for captured enemy soldiers or Roman soldiers who conducted themselves badly in war. These people were made to stand in a line and every tenth person was asked to step out and killed. Such group of soldiers was then said to have been "decimated."

The Tenth Man – A Brief History of Decimation


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