India-US Relations : News and Discussion

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Arjun
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 31 Jan 2015 11:12

matrimc wrote:I thought only mathematical types cone up with impractical ideas. Chalo, calling it a night.

Not aware of David Cameron being a 'mathematical type' in any way... :wink:

His introduction of Muscular Liberalism is a good start to defining immigrant values, but needs to go much further.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Jan 2015 13:09

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/n ... epage=true
Nuclear deal no cause for celebration
Suvrat Raju M. V. Ramana

OVERSIGHT: “Although the design defects in reactor GE Mark I was first noted about 40 years ago, the nuclear industry resisted regulatory changes that could have ameliorated the Fukushima disaster.” Picture shows tanks containing radioactive water in Okuma, Fukushima, where the disaster occurred.

Any understanding between Narendra Modi and Barack Obama on circumventing the Indian nuclear liability law to protect American reactor suppliers should be a matter of concern

At their recent meeting, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Barack Obama discussed methods of circumventing the Indian nuclear liability law to protect American reactor suppliers from the consequences of accidents caused by design defects. Although public details are scarce, if they have indeed reached an understanding on the issue, then this is not a cause for celebration; it should be a matter of deep concern.

The importance of supplier liability is illustrated by the Fukushima nuclear disaster in 2011. When the reactors were hit by the tsunami that year, the weakness of the General Electric (GE) Mark I design was cruelly exposed. The reactors’ inadequate containment was unable to prevent the spread of radioactivity when the cooling systems failed and pressure built up inside the reactors. Although this design defect was first noted about 40 years ago, just as the Fukushima reactors were commissioned, the industry resisted regulatory changes that could have ameliorated the disaster.
Framework of impunity
The Japan Center for Economic Research estimated that the cost of cleanup at Fukushima may reach $200 billion. A 2013 expert study “Accounting for long-term doses in worldwide health effects of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear accident” published in the journal Energy and Environmental Science estimated that the disaster may lead to about a thousand excess deaths due to cancer. However, it is unlikely that GE will ever be held accountable for its poor design choice. Under Japanese law, the supplier is indemnified from liability for an accident. This is the framework of impunity under which nuclear suppliers like to operate.

Legal indemnity for suppliers creates a “moral hazard”— encouraging suppliers to take excessive risks since they don’t have to pay for the consequences. The case of GE not strengthening the Mark I containment is not an exception. The Presidential commission appointed to study the 1979 Three Mile Island disaster, which saw a partial nuclear meltdown, pointed out that the supplier, Babcock and Wilcox, was already aware of design defects that contributed to the accident, but never bothered to resolve them.

Nevertheless, suppliers have ferociously defended their privilege of being free of liability, and they exerted tremendous pressure on the Indian government when the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Act was framed in 2010. Contrary to the industry’s propaganda, this is not a “tough” law. Indeed, several clauses in the law were directly lifted from an annex to the “Convention on Supplementary Compensation,” created by the U.S. government to benefit its nuclear industry.

The law channels primary liability for an accident to the operator — the public sector Nuclear Power Corporation of India — and caps it at Rs. 1,500 crore. This overrides the absolute liability judgment of the Supreme Court, passed after the Bhopal gas leak disaster, which had no such limit. The cap is about a thousand times smaller than estimates of the damage that a serious nuclear accident could cause. Therefore, the law is designed to protect the financial interests of the operators and the supplier; victims or the taxpayers will simply have to bear costs beyond this cap.

Multinational suppliers are unhappy because a relatively minor clause allows the operator to recoup this compensation. By the scales of nuclear commerce, the amount of money involved is minuscule. A single reactor may cost up to an estimated Rs. 60,000 crore — 40 times the maximum amount the supplier could be liable for. The figures of each unit have been arrived at from studying plants under construction in Finland and France. If imposing liability on suppliers leads to cost increases, it can only mean that they are using the law as an excuse to escalate prices.

A close reading of the statements made by advocates of their interests reveals what suppliers are really concerned about: the Indian law could set a precedent that could undermine the iniquitous international system of impunity that they enjoy. “If litigants were able to file suit against suppliers, essentially it could destroy the whole industry,” declared Ashley Tellis, an American negotiator for the nuclear deal.

The United Progressive Alliance government repeatedly tried to subvert the law, earning a sharp rebuke from Arun Jaitley who wrote in 2013 that “a leopard never changes its spots. The government’s intention to dilute the right of recourse … [has] continued.” He should explain why his own government is pursuing a similar policy. The current proposal of using a “legal memorandum” to reinterpret the law is similar to the UPA’s attempt to sign away its “right of recourse” on various pretexts.
No tangible benefits
The most baffling feature of the current agreement is that it holds no tangible benefits for India. The United States has offered to sell two reactor designs — both of which are expensive and untested. The Westinghouse AP1000, which has been chosen for Mithi Virdi (Gujarat) is not in commercial operation anywhere and has encountered difficulties wherever it is being built. At Plant Vogtle, in the U.S. state of Georgia, Westinghouse and its partner Georgia Power have sued each other for a billion dollars over cost increases and delays. Even in China, the AP1000 has been delayed by about two years because of problems with reactor coolant pumps.

Even less can be said for GE’s Economic Simplified Boiling Water Reactor (ESBWR), selected for Kovvada (Andhra Pradesh). After years of questions about ESBWR’s steam dryer, the design obtained regulatory approval from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission — the first step before construction can commence — only in September 2014. There are no firm orders for the ESBWR.

The Vogtle plants were initially estimated to cost about $7 billion apiece. Even accounting for lower construction costs in India we showed — in a detailed study “Cost of Electricity from the Jaitapur Nuclear Power Plant” published in the Economic and Political Weekly — could translate into electricity tariffs that are as high as Rs. 15 per unit. If the government is looking for cheap electricity to promote development, importing American reactors hardly seems like a smart choice.

Last week, the residents of Mithi Virdi wrote an open letter to Mr. Obama and Mr. Modi reminding them that the “gram panchayats of four most-affected villages … [have] passed a resolution declaring the entire … region as [a] nuclear free zone.” The leaders of the “world’s largest democracies” face a clear choice. They can channel billions of dollars into nuclear corporations by sacrificing safety and economic prudence. Or they can heed the democratic voices from Mithi Virdi and cancel these unnecessary deals.

(Suvrat Raju and M.V. Ramana are physicists with the Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace)


While one welcomes the "breakthrough" in Indo-US N-cooperation,the burning issues reg. N-safety after Fukushima,the $200Billion cleanup costs,pitiful amt mentioned as liability in the deal,a paltry few hundred millions,and the design and obsolete technology of US plants are of grave concern to India.A thorough investigation must be made into these issues before we sign on and order any N-plants from the US.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Gus » 31 Jan 2015 13:25

matrimc wrote:
Gus wrote:no other prominent politician of other heritage does this sort of distancing from their heritage.

Because theirs is an abrahamic heritage.


it is not just religion, there's also ethnicity based issues involved. even if jindal was born a christian, he would have still disowned his indianness/heritage. of course this is hypothetical as he was not born christian....

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 31 Jan 2015 13:47

All said and done Jindal does a service by being in the public domain. I do not support ANY of his views, but I do like the idea of having the exotics in positions of power, eg -- a sikh in charge of california (preferrably not leaning towards khalistan), and a brownie in LA. Politics has so few brown people that one has to look at Tulsi types to represent.

If you choose not to openly attack your kind for the merryment of the white folk, and dont take up controversial positions on matters of science (eg evolution), then you should be free to make an idiot of yourself just as much as any cheney or biden.

Just a personal opinion.

More generally, Jindal knows he is not rising any higher. He has his eyes on a senate seat/cabinet position in the long term. Rest is pure hogwash.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 31 Jan 2015 16:26

he is ashamed of his Indian roots, he converted his religion,


But that is the crux of the problem. The "Brasht" concept that divides "Indic" culture and keeps it from advancing. The 2 ideas above are, at least since January 26, 1950, supposed to be completely separated. But even today, an outsider, POTUSBO, has to come and lecture 'young' Indians that the real beauty of the Constitution devised and staunchly defended all these years by BHARATIYAS guarantees that people can 'convert' from any religion to anything else, and be the best of BHARATIYAS.

Look, if PiyushBhai were really 'ASHAMED' of his 'Indian roots', he would have renamed himself "Bawbie Jigndauleaux" and guaranteed himself at least half the votes of the French-Americans in Lousiana. He had that right, same time as he decided to sort-of not be called Piyush. BUT.. let us get his story from an impeccable source: ESQUIRE Magazine: and if u click on this link, you will not b disappointed: the ad at the top will take u(I presume...I would not go there from the kitchen table) to the story of Charlotte XXX, start of someone's Miss Nude SuperBowl Ad.

If Jindal inherited his looks from his mother, he may well have inherited his drive from his father, who reminded his sons every day how lucky they were to live in America.

Amar Jindal grew up in northern India during the chaotic years that followed the partitioning of India and Pakistan. The family lived in a remote farming community that was backward even by Indian standards — the main source of fuel for cooking and heat was dried cow dung. Amar's mother was illiterate. His father was educated to the fifth grade. In time, Amar graduated with a degree in civil engineering from Punjab University. He married a classmate's sister, Raj; she had a master's degree.

The Jindals settled into graduate-student housing near LSU. In the eyes of an immigrant, Louisiana in 1971 was paradise on earth. There were abundant oil and gas reserves, thriving industry, major ports, multiple railroads, jobs aplenty, the guarantee of schooling for all. Amar got a good job with one of the railroads; Raj switched from nuclear physics to the budding field of computer science and was hired by the state of Louisiana as one of its first IT people. (Thirty years later, she is still working in the same department. Technically, Bobby is her boss.)

Jindal remembers his parents always working hard. For a time the family had no car; they rode the bus everywhere. Amar took great pains to be home at night to read to his son before bed, something Bobby now tries to do with his own children. Supriya complains that Bobby's version of monster hide-and-seek gets the kids riled up at bedtime. (All three children sleep together in one room, right next door to the master. You get the picture of a little family camped out in only a few rooms upstairs in a huge old mansion.) After his own bus rides home from work, Amar didn't have quite so much energy. Frequently, it would be he who fell asleep during story time. Bobby would pad out and dutifully report to his mother: Dad's asleep. "I thought I was putting him to bed," Bobby recalls with a smile.

Jindal remembers his father being disappointed with A's — it had to be A-pluses. As a youngster, Bobby competed in tennis tournaments, but later he would turn entrepreneurial, starting a computer newsletter, a retail candy business, and a mail-order software company. He also worked the concessions at LSU football games, and rooting for the Tigers remains a passion to this day. Jindal has said that when he was growing up, there were "several" other Asian Indian families in the Baton Rouge area and that he was raised in a "strong Hindu culture." Because there was no temple in town, the Jindals worshipped at the homes of friends. Jindal has spoken of attending weekly pujas, reading the Vedic scriptures, and making trips back to India to visit relatives. At the same time, he said recently during a conversation in the back of his SUV as he was driven through Baton Rouge, "my parents, and my mom especially, were adamant that, 'Look, we made the decision to come to America, our kids are Americans, they should grow up fully American.' If you look at our childhood, it was pretty typical of a whole lot of other children's childhoods."

The Jindals lived in a series of apartments for nearly seven years, until the birth of Bobby's younger brother, Nikesh. Today, Nikesh Jindal is a thirty-year-old lawyer in Washington. He went to Dartmouth and Yale — "Quite a shock for a southern boy," he said on the phone recently with a chuckle. Unlike Bobby, he has no southern accent. Nikesh remembers fondly the family's one-story, three-bedroom house in a "small little neighborhood where you knew all the people on the street." When asked if his family ever got together with other Hindu families to worship during holidays, Nikesh, who has never before been interviewed, became flustered. "I'll have to think about it and get back to you on that," he said. (All requests for an interview with Amar and Raj Jindal were declined.)

Bobby Jindal entered Baton Rouge Magnet High School at age thirteen. At the time, the school system in the city was under a controversial desegregation order; while the LSU community lent some diversity, Baton Rouge was still very much a part of the Old South. Jindal said that he never once experienced prejudice as a youth. "Before I went to college, I didn't realize not everybody grew up the way we do in south Louisiana." (The postings on popular desi Web sites often seem at odds with Jindal's own experience, especially from those raised in the South.)

The magnet school attracted the best students, and Jindal was one of the stars. "He always had his eye on, first of all, where he wanted to go, and second, how he was going to get there," said Fred Aldrich, a former teacher. "He was very — I don't want to use the word clever, because that's a cheap word. I think he was very good at analyzing what will work and then going out and doing it."

Around this time, Jindal began questioning his faith. It began when his best friend, Kent, a born-again Baptist, gave him a Bible with his name embossed on the front in gold letters. The two buddies would spend hours in serious religious debate; Jindal delved into both the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita, arming himself with scriptural ammo.

Soon Jindal began dating a girl named Kathy. Cute and blond, she was Catholic. According to Jindal's writings, their relationship began on the top floor of a downtown hotel after a high school dance. That night, in between their attempts to toss quarters into the large ornamental fountain twenty-two stories below, Kathy told Bobby that "she wanted to be a lawyer so she could serve on the Supreme Court and stop the country from killing babies." With Kathy, Jindal attended his first Roman Catholic mass. "I was probably the first teenager who ever told his parents he was going to a party so that he could sneak off to church," he wrote later, in one of a series of essays on his religious awakening he published in a Catholic magazine, the New Oxford Review. A teacher who knew both students in high school remembers that the couple's relationship ended badly due to parental concern on both sides about the differences in their cultures and religions.

By the end of high school, Kent's simple fundamentalism had won out over the saints and rituals of the Romans. The exact moment can be traced to the intermission of a religious musical Jindal attended. The youth minister showed a "crude black-and-white film" depicting the crucifixion. "Suddenly, God was tangible," Jindal wrote. "Seeing Christ's sacrifice convicted me of my sinfulness and my need for a savior... I asked seriously who was I that my Lord should suffer for my sake."

Because he feared the "inevitable confrontation with my very unsympathetic Hindu parents," Bobby simply didn't tell them. He found refuge in his closet, where he studied the Bible by flashlight. In his writings, he would later compare his situation to that of the earliest Christians, worshipping in caves, "hiding from government persecution."


Sorry, there are 3 more pages of that, but please forgive me for not going there, I have just eaten breakfast. :P

To sum it up, the guy is an American politician and a fairly accomplished administrator. His teacher had it absolutely right:
"He always had his eye on, first of all, where he wanted to go, and second, how he was going to get there," said Fred Aldrich, a former teacher. "He was very — I don't want to use the word clever, because that's a cheap word. I think he was very good at analyzing what will work and then going out and doing it."


If you want to do a fundamentalist's fundas, u better b known as a 'fundamentalist' urself. I wouldn't write that in the comments column of ESQUIRE bcoz it may be misconstrued, and me as pure as the snow that falls on the pakistans in Ulan Bator! :eek:
******************************

Now back to the problem under discussion. As they say,

There are 10 kinds of ppl.
Those who divide ppl into 1 and 0
and those who don't.

The reason I went to search for this, is to answer the question: What is the official name on the citjenship documents of the Gubrnor of LA?

IMO, Yindoos in particular, need to get out of the mode of being the 1st kind. Don't want 2 vote 4 Jindal 4 POTUS, don't. I wouldn't if I were voting, but because I get worried about the FLOTUS and FGFOPOTUS, not so much the POTUS who may actually know how to balance a budget and completely go back on all his promises if the Opinion Polls so demand, per his Govrnor record. I am now beginning to realize that Bawbie only rules the various departments not the MOHAWG of Lousiana. Wonder if there are any precedents for the POTUS appointing the FLOTUS or FGFOPOTUS to the SCOTUS, but I would not want to find out. :shock: :eek:

P.S. Shreeman, Haley is Govrnor of S. Carolina not Southern California. A Peach, not a Nut. 8)

Plus, if u want to know why his parents refuse 2 b interviewed, see p. 1. He can and probably would fire them both.

Last point I want to make (it IS causing me deep distress 2 b spending my time supporting this guy):

If he really wanted to ERASE the Piyush name, he could have done so when he turned 21, by which time he was way into fundoostan. Clearly he has not. So hu r v to sit in judgement of his true feelings, assuming career politicians have some such things?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 31 Jan 2015 19:02

Guys, I watched the interview that new US amby to India, Rahul Verma gave to that disgusting traitor Thappad (who kept wanting Verma to say that Obama's brazen and gratuitous reference to article 25 was a warning to ModJi).

I actually liked Rahul Verma. To me at least, he does not come across as white Christian wannabe opportunistic Uncle Tom scum bag like Bobby Jindal, or in equal measure although not as perverted, Aunty Tammy like Nikky Haley. In fact, I found Verma to be suave, quite well-informed, and has some class. Although he does not appear to be a heavy weight, more of a policy wonk. Bottom line, I don't think he will do much damage, but I doubt he can initiate, move or shake anything major (To use a cricket analogy,someone like Ajinkya Rahane, who has the class and elegance, but lacks that power punch to stick it to the opposition :-)).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jan 2015 19:26

MV Ramana and his Von Hippel crowd of non proliferation tools have always been against the Indo US deal, so it is not entirely surprising that the Hindu and whatsername malini chose him to provide the chinese point of view.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 31 Jan 2015 19:29

matrimc wrote:<SNIP>

How about hindu-american? I am a (lapsed)hindu-American and a vegetarian? So I automayically become a vegetarian rapist?

The haddi in the kebab is the First amendment,myou see. there is no difference between xxxx-american and american. Period.

By the way same is true in India. Same same.

:rotfl: hazaro sawalo se meri khamoshi achchi.. I mean, didn't Hindoo Rajat Gupta land in jail, but Mr. Bobby J is a governor, so is Mrs. Nikki Haley.

On the other hand, it is just another day in India with people congratulating each other after Agni 5 test. No fancy quoting of radiance of a thousand suns, no claim of Hindoo warhead delivery vehicle, people merely celebrating is all. A missile superpower of SDRE Indians is waking up, is all. Don't forget the advice guys, not splitting on religious lines, before landed in Saudi only.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 31 Jan 2015 19:41

On MV Ramana and his Von Hippel crowd, .... do as you please.

In India we have consensus amongst both the national parties on this issue and the same can be said for the US. The time when they could sway decisions in either country is long past. It is a little annoying but let them have their little song and dance ... It is going to change exactly nothing.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 Jan 2015 20:05

Bharara is sending (or trying to send?) a seasoned Albany entrenched politician to sri Krishna janmasthana too. While I don't support his flouting international law in case of Devayani Khobragade, he is doing his job. I am not qualified to judge how well. Fir that there is a court system and all that. Same with gov. bobby jindal. I don't live in his state. Same with Gov. Nicky Haley and gov. Tulsi gabbled. But then I do have a little partiality towards gov. Gabbard as she is believes in what I what I believe in. Does the opposition have to be always on the basis of skin color or religion?

In my case the answer is no. That may not be the case for all. Live and let live.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Karan Dixit » 31 Jan 2015 21:52

Ulan Batori, I nominate you for BRF Ratna award for such a musharraf kicking post on Jindal. It was much needed considering all the rona dhona.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jan 2015 22:03

--deleted-- OT
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 31 Jan 2015 23:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 31 Jan 2015 22:50

Guys, I have a request: Can we move the discussion about Bobby Jindal, etc. to the Understanding the US thread? He is not representing the US govt vis-a-vis relations with India, and is for now an internal US matter.

CRamS-ji, could you kindly share the video of the Ambassador's interview? TIA.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Feb 2015 02:22

hazaro sawalo se meri khamoshi achchi.. I mean, didn't Hindoo Rajat Gupta land in jail, but Mr. Bobby J is a governor, so is Mrs. Nikki Haley.


Pls check into the glorious traditions of Governors of both LA and SC. Many went where Mr. Gupta is now, and they were most certainly not Hindoo. And long b4 Rajat Gupta was accused, Martha White, who is both Martha and White, was sent to jail for Insider Trading - for MUCH LESS gain that was Mr. Gupta was accused of attempting to get. I think the charge against White was some $50K? $500K worth? Peanuts compared to Wall Street scales of fraud. Don't know if it was Bharara or his predecessor who sent her up.

Many of us are saddened by what happened to Mr. Gupta. But have you checked into what happened to Mr. Rajan (?) some years back? Very successful businessman. Arrested from Singapore. Died in Tihar jail b4 he even had his day in court. Bharara was not involved: it was all Indian Guvrmand, all the way. Why is 'our' outrage so selective, directed at Mr. Bharara? Again, PLEASE don't goad me into defending THAT specimen.. :(( :(( (unless there is another article in ESQUIRE that I can have open on my screen with Limited Immunity while within range of the Rolling Pins) :LOL

It is a fact of human life that if you work hard and stab ur friends in the back and climb on their bodies to the Top Of Da Ladder and are rolling in $$$$$$, the majority of your species will be more interested in bringing you down, and almost no one will be interested in helping you stay up. But still it is sad when those in the lead of the lynch mob are your own kind.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 01 Feb 2015 02:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 02:26

El Mangoliyan: Ze Californian example was just a suggestion. However, given Haley is there, probably should have chosen carolina.

arshyam: the US policy is not monolithic. What the admin. does it does based on what it hears from these folks. They are in public eye for one reason -- to be criticised.

Looking at Halry, Jindal, Harris, Gabbard, etc there should be a stronger line against anti-india actions. Especially as it is doubly anti-US as well, and triply anti-capitalist unless someone says islamism is a form of capitalism.

Something is wrong then, re. political choices being so poor. The bottle feeding via kerry-lugar etc should not occur given this many names (and we are not counting second rung). Do second generation kids get bottle fed the hatred of the ex-homeland, for all the hardships the parents faced? Or the corruption they saw.

matrimc: re. PB, not sure why you are such an ardent supporter. The guy single handedly destroyed diplomatic norms and not just india-us relations. If you think that the rift has healed because of appearances, then you are quite naive. Any IFS officer is forever going to think very hard before taking the US job. It will never change. Ever. There will never be an in principle agreement with USA for India. Not that US is all that democratic but did this have to deteriorate to the transactional state?

PB is out of his sanyas. But he will do another DK sooner or later. Man is too ambitious.

edit -- the "you will get me into trouble as well" and "you shouldnt do as well as me" genes are cultivated extraordinarily in the indian crowd, from years of competing in school. It is as if people never graduate.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Feb 2015 07:03

Shreeman ji: I am not an ardent supporter by any means. But the fact remains that he is doing his job. Sometimes keeping that job means he should listen to his superiors - POTUS, Secretary Kerry, and others. Even if he becomes AG, his powers are far less than what POTUS and SD mandarin and his/her minions. Buck stops with POTUS (unless somebody steps in and says "I am in charge now" :) ).

So nothing - no support for the person PB but his job and his duties and his inability to insubordinate. IOW, if it were to be Army, then he would be court marshalled and if it is a mutiny on ship would have asked to walk the plank not following the orders of the commanding officer/captain.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Feb 2015 07:13

The other thing is, have a heart and think of little Future-Guvnor at age 4. Do you know what it is like to be 4 and in a school as the only Yindoo, only hyphenated-whatever in a class of brats that are native to the locality?
What's your name, wog runt? Where you from, Packeestan?

Piyush, from India

(laughter).
Pee-What now?

Piyush.

Oh, Pee-Whoosh? Ha Ha Ha Ha! Do you drink pee, Pee-Whoosh? I hear your parents are smelly Indians who eat curry? Yeeuuuwww!


No wonder he changed his name to Bawb or was it Bawbie? As for the conversion thing, read the Esquire article. No comment needed.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Y. Kanan » 01 Feb 2015 07:25

Shreeman wrote:I do like the idea of having the exotics in positions of power, eg -- a sikh in charge of california (preferrably not leaning towards khalistan), and a brownie in LA. Politics has so few brown people that one has to look at Tulsi types to represent.


By that logic we could benefit from more Pakis and Arabs in the US govt as well.

This "brownie = good \ whitey = bad" thinking is way too simplistic. As if brownies won't happily screw over and kill over brownies when it suits them.

What actually would be in our interests would be more American libertarian \ free thinker types in positions of power. You know, the Ron Paul types. An isolationist America is in our interests; ultimately it's American globalism and interventionism that has plunged much of the world into violence and inflicted so much suffering on India. We wouldn't be dealing with powerful nuclear armed terrorist state on our borders were it not for the US propping them up all these years. And it was the US that created the global jehadi phenomenon in the first place when it sought to bleed Russia in Afghanistan. All this came back on us; we don't need any more US "help" and I'd be very happy to see a bunch of isolationists running the show.

Of course the unelected ruling establishment that actually runs the US would never let that happen. The US libertarian crowd can keep dreaming but their aspirations will be crushed again and again.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Feb 2015 07:42

UlanBatori wrote:No wonder he changed his name to Bawb or was it Bawbie? As for the conversion thing, read the Esquire article. No comment needed.


What is lost is the arguments you make are more scathing to the society that bred Piyush into Bawbie!
Given the success of Indian Americans in several other fields, this seems to add even more to your
indictment of the voting public Ameriki equivalent of the Mangolion! :mrgreen:

Goes with ones ideological leanings - blame the environment if one is liberal, the individual if one is conservative!
Given most of us are tourists on this fight - perhaps we could all give it a rest...

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Tuvaluan » 01 Feb 2015 07:44

Bobby Jindal's personal choices to be in line with his ambition is no one else's business. He wanted power and influence and he did what he had to do to get there. All the whining about his choices not being bhartiya enough is pretty pathetic.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 08:20

It is bobby proper, than you very much. And your personal choices are totally up to scrutiny (only kids are exempted). If you dont set a good example by divorcing, having extra marital affairs (hello, carolina!), then every other aspect being argued is part of public scrutiny. This is thedefinition of a public life. Dont be a leader if you dont want to be scrutinized.

Having said that laughing at one aspect (eg biden) doesnt make you entirely useless. The rest of your positions may well stand on merit and make negatives immaterial. It is always this way with any leader.

YK: As far as leaders go, it is never brown/white. It is poor/rich. You expect the brown leader to pick on the white poor to begin with, just be genetics. So unless there is a far of running out of poor whites, bring on the browns. Except, this doesnt seem to pan out with spicy brown. Works with cubans, mexicans, south americans in general, africans, even bakistanis stick together. Bring on the shuddh ghee and turmeric, and you get picked out ahead of the whites. Just my personal bias againt people in power.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Tuvaluan » 01 Feb 2015 09:14

Shreeman wrote:
And your personal choices are totally up to scrutiny (only kids are exempted). If you dont set a good example by divorcing, having extra marital affairs (hello, carolina!), then every other aspect being argued is part of public scrutiny.


Of course, the consequences of any and all personal choices are up for scrutiny, good or bad, but as in his case, changing religions to be one of the local crowd is one that helps his career and can withstand scrutiny.

I meant in the context of some earlier posts that dissed his choices as the equivalent of betraying his bhartiya culture or something of that sort -- that is his choice.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Feb 2015 09:34

If Gov. Jindal were to be in India and had changed over to xtianity, would he have betrayed bharatiya culture? Before answering that question, please remember that there are 20-30 million xtians in India. IM very HO, they are as bharatiya as any other major/minor religion/sect/panth.

What goes without saying but worth repeating is that everybody is (perhaps some of you object to that characterization and want me to say should be - then assume that in place of is) constrained by the constitution (of India, of course :) ) and the provisions made in there of regarding freedom of expression.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 09:41

Every one of these chinese people I knew, immediately picked out an american name. Right on landing. Never used by the chinese friends in chinese. But for american tongue, everyone was a Jack or Jill. They really lived two lives, even different persona, when among the chinese vs when among mixed company.
This seems to be quite normal for the first generation.

The second generation start out with mostly american names. This is not in that range. Indians typicalky dont pick the Richard or Bobby. Plenty of second generation sub-rah-manyams around. So it sayssomething about this choice. Not sure what the something is.

Would it be better to join in the satyanarayan puja (nominal staggered fee range, prasadam prepared on all days) at the local temple? Or hand out bibles door to door (is there a richard at this address? No, then are you interested in the bible? Well, thanks for opening your door anyway). Culture, what culture? You mean the jasraj school in new jersey, or the ali akbar khan college in berkeley? Or do you mean the woodstock iyenger school or the san leandro riki? Taking amrit at freemont gurudwara is in the same range as joining one of the san jose mosques. There IS no accessible inheritable "culture" for indian immigrants in the US. Never was.

Edit - there is spiritual religion and there is religion as an economic tool or escape from persecution. The fight in India for/against religion has nothing to do with spirituality. On the other hand, I have seen converts treat the bible like a 5xdaily book. Literally. Over and over again. Do you really want the world beholden to "the book"?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Feb 2015 10:02

johneeG wrote:Well, I think the basic question is: Idea of America. What is America's identity?

If America is defined as a white country, then the non-whites will be hyphenated. If America is defined as a country of its locals, then all immigrants(including the europeans) would be hyphenated.

Let us see who are hyphenated:
African-Americans
Indian-Americans
Latin-Americans

Is there an European-American? No. But, note that even the original Americans are called 'native-americans', so even they had been hyphenated. What does that mean? It means when there is no hyphenation, it refers to white Americans. For non-white Americans, there is an explicit hyphenated tag. That means, America implies white implicitly.

Is the message of Jindal is that non-whites(i.e. non-Americans) should stop wearing their culture on their sleeves and instead try to assimilate(imitate) the American(i.e. white) culture? If so, then he must realize that as long as America is defined as white, a non-white can never be completely assimilated.

Most whites are not governors of a southern state. Jindal is not trying to assimilated, he is a brown guy--unmistakable fact--already reaping the benefits of what assimilation is supposed to bring. He is careful to say it is his own point of view, but what he is doing is setting the parameters of the contentious hyphenated-american debate.

What we observe is that, even among whites, the lower you are (or have been) in the old Gobineau race hierarchy (nordics and teutonics besht, Italians worsht, and Irish and Polish outlier savages) the higher the propensity to cling to hyphenation. In time, Irish and Italians and Greeks got more or less proper white status, but the hyphenation stayed as a vestige, now considered charming.

No such luck for the actual browns and blacks, the lowest in the racial hierarchy (along with Indians mostly there but sometimes audaciously claiming caucasianhood (see Bhagat Singh Thind ). They had no choice but to cling to their hyphenated status for solidarity and safety, all the while taking heat from the white society for trying to be "separate" and not full Americans. For these groups, whose only goal was to be as American as everyone else, hyphenation was not a choice, though they had (and have) to embrace it and find in it what pride they can in it. Note that the deliberate adoption of "African-American" in place of "black" or "negro" was itself a step towards asserting Americanhood, albeit incrementally, by claiming the same status as previously despised whites like Irish and Italians.

Most Indians in the US don't exactly consider themselves white, but they don't exactly feel the pinch of racial discrimination either, at least not to the extent of African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans. Bobby Jindal, in using his very high position to propagate the rejection of the Indian-American hyphenation, and hyphenation in general, is sending out the message that Americans of Indian, Irish, Italian, Polish, Greek and such formerly or currently despised ethnicities should reject the separation and ghettoization which is mostly forced on them, and the apparent loss of ethnic pride is a price worth paying. Apparent loss, not real loss, since you still see Norwegian-Minnesotans or German- or Dutch- Pennsylvanians or Ohioans still retaining aspects of their ancestral ways and observances like eating lutefisk or celebrating oktoberfest, except the way they do it is as though they pretty much owned Minnesota or parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio or whatever, not as a kind of hunted minority that alternates between being apologetic and defiant.

Question is, why would it a bad thing for the children of today's Indian immigrants to have a status in American society that is analogous to that enjoyed by Minnesota's Norwegian-Americans?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Tuvaluan » 01 Feb 2015 10:13

http://www.newsroompost.com/158712/privileges-us-diplomats-india-not-restored-govt/

Extra privileges for US Diplomats not restored (post DK and paco)

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Feb 2015 10:17

Shreeman ji: Ali Akbar Khan's sarod school is in Terra Linda a burb of San Rafael.

FWIW, my second hand information regarding Chinese/Koreans (S and more so N) changing their names was to let everybody know that they are not the "hated" communists. They would change their names to one of the apostles and promptly join their version of the church. I know some neighbors of mine who had two religions - korean church and both budhdhism and xtianity at home. Tough.

Bharatiyas were much more likely to be confused with "dirty" hippies, but then at one time - woodstock - hippies were all the rage due to the four from England.

The system is evolving. How many people in the US go to church Sunday morning or vespers on a weekday? My informal observation is that it is small fraction of the populace.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Gus » 01 Feb 2015 10:18

the issue here is, no politician distances and disowns their heritage. as such i don't know why we consider him as indian-american and talk about him when as he himself wants to distance himself from that tag. he is just another republican politician who cannot say he believes in evolution despite being a biology major. i think that's more hilarious than his converting to xtianity for political reasons. at least there he is a pretender in both religions.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Feb 2015 10:20

Guddu wrote:..
Problem with Piyush Jindal is that he is ashamed of his Indian roots, he converted his religion, all so that he could in his mind be indistinguishable from Americans. I imagine if Piyush bhai was to run for prez, someone would ask about his pagan religion and sdre background.
While he is running from his roots, most white immigrants are proud of their roots. I don't think Piyushbhai would be caught dead visiting his relatives in India. This is no commentary on his skills and ability as a governor.

Well, let's tie it back to the conversion debate and Obama's "advice" to Indians, and the way most Indians read it.

IMO the whole conversion debate is so full of contradictions that I for one can't make head or tail of it. We are fine with Tulsi Gabbard's mother leaving her American and Christian heritage and becoming Hindu and raising her daughter as Hindu, but we are not fine with Piyush Jindal becoming Christian and rather insistently, full-American. Jindal never, afaik indicated that he was "ashamed" of his Indian roots or his Hindu religion, he claimed to have had a genuine change of heart and decided to become a Christian. If we are to take him at his word, who are we to question his conscience and beliefs?

On the other hand, if he cynically adopted Christianity as a way to get ahead, as we seem to believe--based on nothing more than our own assumption that "cynical" is the only way a Hindu would be persuaded to leave the faith of his fathers for Christianity--then we have to admit that it sure worked for him and he became very successful in a very hostile environment. If he realized early on that the only way to realize his political ambitions was to convert, then is he supposed to have sacrificed his ambition and stayed Hindu because, what, we, who mean next to nothing in his life, disapprove?

I think a proper American liberal attitude towards India's ghar-wapasi movement should be to support it enthusiastically, or at least to the same extent as they would support efforts to convert Hindus to Christianity. They are exactly the same thing; in both cases, it is the free market of religious conversion and individual liberty at stake.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Feb 2015 10:25

KLNM garu/guru: shata kOTi praNAm. You nailed it. That is the last word AFAIC. Over and out.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 01 Feb 2015 10:26

KLNMurthy wrote: Bobby Jindal, in using his very high position to propagate the rejection of the Indian-American hyphenation, and hyphenation in general, is sending out the message that Americans of Indian, Irish, Italian, Polish, Greek and such formerly or currently despised ethnicities should reject the separation and ghettoization which is mostly forced on them, and the apparent loss of ethnic pride is a price worth paying. Apparent loss, not real loss, since you still see Norwegian-Minnesotans or German- or Dutch- Pennsylvanians or Ohioans still retaining aspects of their ancestral ways and observances like eating lutefisk or celebrating oktoberfest, except the way they do it is as though they pretty much owned Minnesota or parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio or whatever, not as a kind of hunted minority that alternates between being apologetic and defiant.


Yeah...Indian Americans need to give up the "ghetto-ization" that has led to their emergence as America's top earning community @ $86K per family to become more like the Pennsylvania Germans earning half that amount: List of Ethnic Groups by Household Income

Brilliant Suggestion !

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Feb 2015 10:37

Arjun wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Bobby Jindal, in using his very high position to propagate the rejection of the Indian-American hyphenation, and hyphenation in general, is sending out the message that Americans of Indian, Irish, Italian, Polish, Greek and such formerly or currently despised ethnicities should reject the separation and ghettoization which is mostly forced on them, and the apparent loss of ethnic pride is a price worth paying. Apparent loss, not real loss, since you still see Norwegian-Minnesotans or German- or Dutch- Pennsylvanians or Ohioans still retaining aspects of their ancestral ways and observances like eating lutefisk or celebrating oktoberfest, except the way they do it is as though they pretty much owned Minnesota or parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio or whatever, not as a kind of hunted minority that alternates between being apologetic and defiant.


Yeah...Indian Americans need to give up the "ghetto-ization" that has led to their emergence as America's top earning community @ $86K per family to become more like the Pennsylvania Germans earning half that amount: List of Ethnic Groups by Household Income

Brilliant Suggestion !

Huh? Not following your logic, I'm afraid.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 10:39

matrimc wrote:Shreeman ji: Ali Akbar Khan's sarod school is in Terra Linda a burb of San Rafael.

FWIW, my second hand information regarding Chinese/Koreans (S and more so N) changing their names was to let everybody know that they are not the "hated" communists. They would change their names to one of the apostles and promptly join their version of the church. I know some neighbors of mine who had two religions - korean church and both budhdhism and xtianity at home. Tough.

Bharatiyas were much more likely to be confused with "dirty" hippies, but then at one time - woodstock - hippies were all the rage due to the four from England.

The system is evolving. How many people in the US go to church Sunday morning or vespers on a weekday? My informal observation is that it is small fraction of the populace.


re. aka, I noted berkeley since this would be more familiar, and because of the jodi stecher types.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 01 Feb 2015 10:51

KLNMurthy wrote:Huh? Not following your logic, I'm afraid.

Please take a look at the link I shared, and explain to me once again why Indian-Americans need to reject hyphenation and in what way German Pennsylvanians are presumed to be at the top of the American totem pole.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Feb 2015 12:11

Arjun wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Huh? Not following your logic, I'm afraid.

Please take a look at the link I shared, and explain to me once again why Indian-Americans need to reject hyphenation and in what way German Pennsylvanians are presumed to be at the top of the American totem pole.


I don't really have a strong opinion whether Americans of Indian background have to reject hyphenation or not. Please read my post in context--it was an attempt to parse and interpret Gov. Jindal's statement about hyphenation. I tried to make the case that hyphenation of ethnic groups is more or less inversely related to their being accepted as "default group" when we talk about America. If you are disputing my point there, you sure haven't said so.

It is not clear to me to what extent Indian immigrants' prosperity and success in America is related to them seeing themselves as hyphenated americans. At the ground level, they have been able to work well with their technology peers from various other backgrounds in America. Did they do it as Indian-Americans, or just as highly-skilled hardworking professionals who caught the technology wave in collaboration with their colleagues from other ethnic communities, in an environment that mostly respects skills and disregards ethnic differences? I haven't a clue, and I don't know whether the question is even all that important or relevant.

The German-American analogy was brought in to point out the relative degree of belongingness, acceptance-as-default, and comfort that German-Americans take for granted in America to the extent that they don't need to bother with the hyphenation. I am at a loss to understand why you think it follows that I want Indian immigrants' incomes to drop to that of Americans of German heritage.

I need to have points laid out and articulated in detail to be able to have a discussion; I don't have the capacity to address what seems to me like cryptic sniping. If you have a counterpoint, please make it yourself. It is very bad manners on your part to respond to my effort to explain my position with what sound like commands to do this or that.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 01 Feb 2015 13:37

KLNMurthy wrote:I don't really have a strong opinion whether Americans of Indian background have to reject hyphenation or not. Please read my post in context--it was an attempt to parse and interpret Gov. Jindal's statement about hyphenation. I tried to make the case that hyphenation of ethnic groups is more or less inversely related to their being accepted as "default group" when we talk about America.

Not really true. Every immigrant group that came in to the US retained its own distinctive culture and thought of itself as distinct from the settlers coming in from other parts to the New World. If there is a dominant culture in America today, which is also supported by demographics - it is the Anglo Saxons (English, Scotch). Even the Germans came later - and settled into their own "ghettos" if one can term it that, which subsequently grew into states like Pennsylvania.

Clearly, if Jindal's implication is that one is to be mindful of assimilation in public with a stress on commonalities with other communities when interacting in public - that is just an issue of basic manners and courtesies. But - in private or if specifically asked about their background - would any of the groups (including the Anglo-Saxons, Germans or others) disown their origins or not be aware of the heritage they derive from having such-and-such ancestry ? Most certainly not. Are the Anglo-Saxons not aware and proud of their ancestry and heritage ? Are the Germanics not aware ? The Italians, The Greeks, the Chinese, the Jews .....??

This household income survey was from the survey that the US government conducts on a regular basis. The number of folks who self-report themselves as German Americans or English Americans, as opposed to just plain Americans, is available in the public domain. So, the assertion that only the groups that came in later and were trying to "fit in" care about their origins / heritage is not entirely true. As a matter of fact, it may well be the reverse.

It is not clear to me to what extent Indian immigrants' prosperity and success in America is related to them seeing themselves as hyphenated americans. At the ground level, they have been able to work well with their technology peers from various other backgrounds in America. Did they do it as Indian-Americans, or just as highly-skilled hardworking professionals who caught the technology wave in collaboration with their colleagues from other ethnic communities, in an environment that mostly respects skills and disregards ethnic differences? I haven't a clue, and I don't know whether the question is even all that important or relevant.

There has been an upsurge of research and books in the recent past on the precise question that you raise. Many do see this as perhaps one of the more important issues of the current times - directly related to how social capital of groups can be leveraged for success.

One of the more prominent books - The Triple Package (Amy Chua) makes the case that retaining the distinct group identity and heritage of values, as well as a stress on impulse control that goes very much against the dominant media themes of American culture is responsible for the outperformance of the successful ethnic communities (mainly Indians, Chinese, Jews - but also Persians, Lebanese and a few others).

The German-American analogy was brought in to point out the relative degree of belongingness, acceptance-as-default, and comfort that German-Americans take for granted in America to the extent that they don't need to bother with the hyphenation. I am at a loss to understand why you think it follows that I want Indian immigrants' incomes to drop to that of Americans of German heritage.

German Americans, after the World Wars, were for a number of decades not keen to mention their ancestry for obvious reasons. And the Anglo-Saxons are probably better representatives of the established American elite and demography. As mentioned earlier - no Anglo-Saxon would be disowning or hiding the facts of their ancestry.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 13:56

^^^
Little Italy -- great! Eeaat souuume peeezza.
Chinatown -- fabulous. Lets hold a dragon parade.
Japantown, koreatown (now with own sniper security!) -- ok?



Indian-town?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Feb 2015 16:31

Ah, SO! Per Arjun, the reason to be 'hyphenated' is to become rich. Makes sense. I see why mere "Indians" are not rich (except the Ambanis and the IAS aphsar parivars and the most Gandyan of politicians), but "Indian-Americans" and "Indian-British" and "Indian-Mauritians" and "Indian-Dubaiyyans" are all rich.

Like "Fffwoccs-Williams". Or "Studebaker-Oldsmobile". The Germans would have a problem with that: Stotlemayer-Steinbrenner is as tough to fill in the driver's license application as Jonalapuragadda-Kaithappuzhakkaaran-Ananthasayanapurtathuveettilappan. Have you seen the new INDIAN immigration arrival form? Any name longer than one used in the 'Customer Service' Eye-Tee circles runs out of boxes :eek: :shock:

Arjun: There are 50 million German-Americans. If they were all in the Top 3%, the US population would have to rise quite a bit like in India, hain? If they spent all their time doing that, they wouldn't have much time to work. So I don't see your logic. Also, to get to your example: The communities in Pennsylvania and West Virginia have mainly one resource: Coal. Coal-mining tends to take all day, and happens underground. People come out covered with coal dust, coughing with coal-dust building in their lungs, and when they come out it is already getting dark, and they go back to work underground at daybreak. They are also dead-tired, exhausted every day. They tend to spend any remaining working hours imbibing a few drinks and cheering for their favorite boxer or football team.

Does not leave a lot of time or funds to speculate on Wall Street like their coujins in Noo Yoik. Honest, hard-working folks who spent their lifetimes working in the mines and the mills.

Or they used to have steel factories. Bethlehem, Pittsburgh. All went under as competition from first Japan, then Korea then China and finally India wiped them out. They are NOT poor by the standards of steelworkers in, say, Bhilai or Rourkela or Jamshedpur, but in purchasing power in the US they are not rich.

The communities may now be poor, since the steel industry in Pennsylvania collapsed. But their children do not live there after they grow up - they go to the best universities on the East Coast and become rich and live in cramped apartments in New York making and spending billions - and you would not recognize them because they don't have hyphenated names.

So it is OK to take on a hyphenated naam to become rich. But not be called "Bobby" or be Born Again to become rich AND powerful? Now I am a bit confused.

But all will be clear if you read the ESQUIRE article again. It was **NOT** to become rich that Gov. Jindal says he converted. It was not his brain at work at all, but perhaps a different part of the anatomy, which is why the article was published in ESQUIRE not Foreign Affairs. (oh wait! that didn't come out right..) :shock:

Anyway, look at the names of the "Indians" interviewed on NPR about the BO vijit. 50% are 'REAL" names: like Bawb or Sam. Only the others are unfashionable names. The Brave New India. (Note: aam Indian Xtian names are real Xtian names, such as Ouseph or Varghese, very few are American-type names).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 01 Feb 2015 17:38

UlanBatori wrote:Ah, SO! Per Arjun, the reason to be 'hyphenated' is to become rich.

Have no idea where you derived that highly simplistic reading of my argument. Rather than generalities, let me address the specific issue you raise below.

Arjun: There are 50 million German-Americans. If they were all in the Top 3%, the US population would have to rise quite a bit like in India, hain? If they spent all their time doing that, they wouldn't have much time to work. So I don't see your logic. Also, to get to your example: The communities in Pennsylvania and West Virginia have mainly one resource: Coal. Coal-mining tends to take all day, and happens underground. People come out covered with coal dust, coughing with coal-dust building in their lungs, and when they come out it is already getting dark, and they go back to work underground at daybreak. They are also dead-tired, exhausted every day. They tend to spend any remaining working hours imbibing a few drinks and cheering for their favorite boxer or football team.

Does not leave a lot of time or funds to speculate on Wall Street like their coujins in Noo Yoik. Honest, hard-working folks who spent their lifetimes working in the mines and the mills.

Or they used to have steel factories. Bethlehem, Pittsburgh. All went under as competition from first Japan, then Korea then China and finally India wiped them out. They are NOT poor by the standards of steelworkers in, say, Bhilai or Rourkela or Jamshedpur, but in purchasing power in the US they are not rich.

The communities may now be poor, since the steel industry in Pennsylvania collapsed. But their children do not live there after they grow up - they go to the best universities on the East Coast and become rich and live in cramped apartments in New York making and spending billions - and you would not recognize them because they don't have hyphenated names.

British Americans number even more than the 50 Mil that German Americans account for - but their average income is considerably higher. Indian Americans are no small group either - at 3 Million they would probably be among the top 15 demographics in the US. You could also look at other metrics - leave aside average income. Look at latest parameters in education at the elite levels - which is considerably correlated to income. Typically - the technique used in such cases is to compare representations in these lists to actual population proportion.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 01 Feb 2015 20:20

KLNMurthy wrote:
johneeG wrote:Well, I think the basic question is: Idea of America. What is America's identity?

If America is defined as a white country, then the non-whites will be hyphenated. If America is defined as a country of its locals, then all immigrants(including the europeans) would be hyphenated.

Let us see who are hyphenated:
African-Americans
Indian-Americans
Latin-Americans

Is there an European-American? No. But, note that even the original Americans are called 'native-americans', so even they had been hyphenated. What does that mean? It means when there is no hyphenation, it refers to white Americans. For non-white Americans, there is an explicit hyphenated tag. That means, America implies white implicitly.

Is the message of Jindal is that non-whites(i.e. non-Americans) should stop wearing their culture on their sleeves and instead try to assimilate(imitate) the American(i.e. white) culture? If so, then he must realize that as long as America is defined as white, a non-white can never be completely assimilated.

Most whites are not governors of a southern state. Jindal is not trying to assimilated, he is a brown guy--unmistakable fact--already reaping the benefits of what assimilation is supposed to bring. He is careful to say it is his own point of view, but what he is doing is setting the parameters of the contentious hyphenated-american debate.

What we observe is that, even among whites, the lower you are (or have been) in the old Gobineau race hierarchy (nordics and teutonics besht, Italians worsht, and Irish and Polish outlier savages) the higher the propensity to cling to hyphenation. In time, Irish and Italians and Greeks got more or less proper white status, but the hyphenation stayed as a vestige, now considered charming.

No such luck for the actual browns and blacks, the lowest in the racial hierarchy (along with Indians mostly there but sometimes audaciously claiming caucasianhood (see Bhagat Singh Thind ). They had no choice but to cling to their hyphenated status for solidarity and safety, all the while taking heat from the white society for trying to be "separate" and not full Americans. For these groups, whose only goal was to be as American as everyone else, hyphenation was not a choice, though they had (and have) to embrace it and find in it what pride they can in it. Note that the deliberate adoption of "African-American" in place of "black" or "negro" was itself a step towards asserting Americanhood, albeit incrementally, by claiming the same status as previously despised whites like Irish and Italians.

Most Indians in the US don't exactly consider themselves white, but they don't exactly feel the pinch of racial discrimination either, at least not to the extent of African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans. Bobby Jindal, in using his very high position to propagate the rejection of the Indian-American hyphenation, and hyphenation in general, is sending out the message that Americans of Indian, Irish, Italian, Polish, Greek and such formerly or currently despised ethnicities should reject the separation and ghettoization which is mostly forced on them, and the apparent loss of ethnic pride is a price worth paying. Apparent loss, not real loss, since you still see Norwegian-Minnesotans or German- or Dutch- Pennsylvanians or Ohioans still retaining aspects of their ancestral ways and observances like eating lutefisk or celebrating oktoberfest, except the way they do it is as though they pretty much owned Minnesota or parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio or whatever, not as a kind of hunted minority that alternates between being apologetic and defiant.

Question is, why would it a bad thing for the children of today's Indian immigrants to have a status in American society that is analogous to that enjoyed by Minnesota's Norwegian-Americans? {emphasis mine}

KLNMurthy ji, +100 to this post. Most of educated and familiar people in USA never talk of this aspect of formation of state, formation of nation state of America and subsequent preaching and advising others to civilize.

This aspect of nation state formation of USA remains hidden, or shall I say, kept hidden with generous amount of pompous propaganda within and finger pointing outside. It is similar to how the change of heart is genuine only if conversion is to an exclusivist religion, but ghar-wapasi to a non-exclusivist "religion" is disputed only!

People would rather avoid talking about it since usually people are too busy or think rationally/scientifically/religiously/ in most correct and secular manner, while not forgetting to advise/suggest/be-offended etc etc.

When Obama gave advise about secularism to a billion plus Indians, the US ambassador Mr. Richard V. promptly clarified that the message was 'universal' - presented in India only! The POTUS could have done that very well in USA!

As the message was 'universal', can there be a more opportune moment to discuss secularism in America?

But people, who talk a lot about situation in India, do not say! Just as the 'universal' message didn't mention ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits from Kashmir by Muslim majority - since that will open up modus-operandi of exclusivist religions for all to see.

And then, the recipient of Nobel Peace prize promptly went to Saudi, and without complaining about total lack of elections/secularism/constitution-except-holy-book/ was heading American delegation to pay respect to the departed religious monarch - and meet the new religious monarch!

In case you have missed, Obama defends Saudi relationship:
'Sometimes we have to balance'


Again, thank you for the message KLNMurthy ji.
Last edited by vishvak on 01 Feb 2015 21:41, edited 1 time in total.


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