India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:00

arshyam garu: President Obama "measuring his words" is hagiography, pure and simple. But then anybody who cricizes the president will be termed a racist.

We can clearly see that PM Modi is completely color blind where as PM Cameron not so much. He is British after all. President Obama being from an Ivy League would have the same supercilious attitude towards humble Cahiwalla as Mani Aiyer would have towards the PM Modi and most probably towards President Obama as well. Fractal recursivity of snooty behavior in full display, IMHO.

President Obama visited and cavorted at St. Xaviers the first time around. There were no gratuitous advise to certain faiths.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Feb 2015 09:02

Tuvaluan wrote: The worst the USCIRF can do is get the John Dayal and evangelicals to create a furore before the election to influence it, but the likes of John Dayal have been doing that for a decade now with no results to show. Why all this insecurity?

Not insecurity, just awareness. After all the eloquence and lavish praises that we have seen on this this thread about how Indo-US partnership is the best things that could happen to us and how recent events point to the "great significance", the US Govt, the Congress and what not attach to relations with India, such outcomes and events are necessary to recognise the reality.

In many ways the US Govt is acting no different than the Pakis.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:04

Tuvaluan wrote:The point is that whatever cr@p Obama wants to spout can be read in a manner convenient to us and explicitly stated as such

Well, MSEM has to report that as such, which hasn't happened. most dili billis irrespective of their station in life think that thy are already in the US and would vote for AK based on what the president is saying. Aren't they the ones who were celebrating an African-American becoming a president of the US, shattering of the glass ceiling and all that cr@* as if that matters to them. It is irrelevant to 99.99% of the Indians.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:06

Kashi wrote:

In many ways the US Govt is acting no different than the Pakis.

Exactly, they are just a richer bunch of pakis, just as racist and just as supercilous as the pakis, which explains why the two got along like a house on fire, which is turning out to be the final condition of both countries. But that also means that Obama can break wind about "intolerance in India" as much as he wants, it will be ignored -- if the US government wants to do business with India, Obama and his bunch of racist scum in the State Dept. would do well to just stick to doing business and leave out all the social commentary. Of course, instead of whining about Obama's sanctimonious a$$holery, Indians could start blogs doing social commentary on racism and illtreatment of minorities and african americans in the USA, but that may involve some actual work.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:09

Well, MSEM has to report that as such, which hasn't happened

The Indian MSEM has an overall readship of less than 0.5% of Indian populace, so the IAS/IFS scumbags in New Delhi and their crony wankers in the English Media in New Delhi can wave their schlongs around for as long as they want, most of India is not paying attention to these self-serving mofos.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 09:12

Tuvaluan wrote:The point is that whatever cr@p Obama wants to spout can be read in a manner convenient to us and explicitly stated as such -- why start wailing that he is talking about hindus when they are hardly the only ones who are getting all aggressive about their "faith" and rearing for a fight? Yes, there are more hindus than muslims or xtians in India, so what is Obama going to do about it, personally contribute to the xtian population in India or just create a racket that hindus are hatemongers without saying so? He is welcome to do either, but that will not win any friends for the US in India now or ever.

What the eff can USCIRF do other than write annual reports that can double as toilet paper, and have no effect on the ground in India? As the PM said, Obama was invited to do business, and he is welcome to do business, and as for the rest of his views about India and Indians, he can shove them up some cool, dry place. Seriously, WTF can USCIRF or any foreign organization do to influence votes in Delhi? If the Delhiites are stupid enough to vote the lying tool Kejriwal back to power, they deserve all the misery headed their way, but that will happen regardless of whether or not the USCIRF writes a report on religious freedom in India. The worst the USCIRF can do is get the John Dayal and evangelicals to create a furore before the election to influence it, but the likes of John Dayal have been doing that for a decade now with no results to show. Why all this insecurity?

So you want the yindoos to just keep on keeping quiet, like lambs to the slaughter??

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:19

So you want the yindoos to just keep on keeping quiet, like lambs to the slaughter??

What kind of a response is that to what I wrote? If you are unable to comprehend simple sentences, let me break it down a little into bit sized pieces: (1) your overblown claims of USCIRF doing this and that and bringdown Modi and getting Kejriwal into power is utter conspiratorial BS, but you seem to be utterly convinced about it, so knock yourself out. (2) India is a large country and a place like Delhi is not as easily manipulated unless you are under the impression that the USA is this super duper power that can bend the universe to its needs (yes, we can see how slamming it went for them in Afghanisthan, Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine)

As for your hyperbole about hindus being lambs led to a slaughter, it has more than a passing resemblance to "Islam Khatrey mein hai"....so I will just leave that alone. No comment.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2015 09:25

matrimc wrote:SaiK: When Dr. Vandana Shiva says something similar she is termed a traitor, extreme left, dirty hippie and the like. She may not be dyed in the wool hardcore high-IQ liberal RW and not right (IMHO most times), she has a point on matters of opensource seed banks. Yes, either she was a member or was supporting the extra-constitutional NAC and members but then her PhD is earned not casua honoris.

her phd is in philosophy of quantum mechanics although she claims a phd in QMech.

her brand of knee jerk fear mongering and FUD regarding nuclear tech is a major factor that has held us back over the last few years.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Feb 2015 09:28

^^ tuvaluan, take down your aggressiveness a notch please. there is clearly a pattern to those comments and that they have appeared just at a specific time. the US may not be able to manipulate countries easily, but that doesnt mean they wont try.

as regards commentary and your cavalier dismissals of hindu concerns being equivalent to "islam khatrey main hain" and similar stuff.. the rate of conversions and funding etc in india speaks for itself.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Feb 2015 09:50

Chetak: you might want to read the full Obama speech. The statement on India follows one where he took potshots at American and Christian track-record on tolerance... As a matter of fact, Republicans are taking aim at his speech as being offensive to Christianity: Obama's speech at prayer breakfast called offensive

So the issue with Obama might be less one of deliberate intent to cause offense to Hindus or of influencing the Delhi elections - but more the typical American liberal affliction of extreme woolly-headedness and inability to think straight.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Feb 2015 09:58

Rahul M wrote:her phd is in philosophy of quantum mechanics although she claims a phd in

her brand of knee jerk fear mongering and FUD regarding nuclear tech is a major factor that has held us back over the last few years.

ok I stand corrected on the PhD part. My observation is limited to her views on IP rights of seeds which have been in use for generations. IIRC, she is also against subsidies by the U.S. Govt. to their farmers. I would like to be corrected. IMHO, Nuclear tech need not be feared nor is it the silver bullet for all energy problems for all time to come. It has its place but has to be eschewed as soon as it is convenient. I don't hink ideology has a place in wanting to get off of our dependency on fossil fuels or nuclear. The negatives outweigh the positives. In anycase it is all academic as some of us who are old enough would not live to see the day when all energy I derived from clean sources only.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 06 Feb 2015 10:10

Giving a billion $ to Pakis and singling out India and Israel repeatedly instead of other tolerant nations nearby gives it away. I am slowly coming around to a fact that Obama has reverted back to his Islamic faith in the last few yrs brainwashed by some American Mullahs. He goes to church for outward show. His actions and attitude towards Islam and Middle east speak very clear and loud.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2015 10:23

T also tone down your language. Not nice words.

Also looks like a gaggle of approved Muslims was invited to WH.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 10:30

Arjun wrote:Chetak: you might want to read the full Obama speech. The statement on India follows one where he took potshots at American and Christian track-record on tolerance... As a matter of fact, Republicans are taking aim at his speech as being offensive to Christianity: Obama's speech at prayer breakfast called offensive

So the issue with Obama might be less one of deliberate intent to cause offense to Hindus or of influencing the Delhi elections - but more the typical American liberal affliction of extreme woolly-headedness and inability to think straight.

Sirji, while I do take your point, it is the perception in the Indian media that matters to us. The predigested pap that they feed the mango people day in and out is what generates discussion and opinions in India.

On a higher philosophical level it may matter what he actually said and/or meant and who he was targeting but the spin in the Indian media squarely targeting the NaMo govt and the RSS has to be countered. The minute the word India is mentioned, the intent is unmistakable. The aam jantha is not philosophically inclined or even much given to critical analysis.

If indeed, the bugger was all that generous, where was the need for him to mention India at all with the words "religious intolerance" in the same sentence or even speech. There is a clear pattern here

USCRIF and such other worthless organizations have opinions about how things should be run in India. Valid or otherwise, such opinions are immediately picked up and widely reported because certain people whose roji roti depends on such slanted and motivated reportage spin/doctor the discussions in such a way as to lay the blame squarely on the NaMo govt and link it to the RSS as being a fundamentalist organization from the dark middle ages.

Such religiously colored publicity and targeted reportage serves only to put the backs up of several foreign governments. It also results in increased contributions to and more vigorous efforts of such inclined NGOs to do more gardening in India.

It is so very easy for some posters to contemptuously and aggressively dismiss these things as BS and CTs. The protests of the north eastern folks and the church folks on the days that they actually occurred was not a mere coincidence. It was coordinated. The "typo" by the BJP was a self goal gifted by idiots who deserve the boot.

How long are we expected to ignore and keep quiet??

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 10:48

Tuvaluan wrote:
So you want the yindoos to just keep on keeping quiet, like lambs to the slaughter??
What kind of a response is that to what I wrote? If you are unable to comprehend simple sentences, let me break it down a little into bit sized pieces: (1) your overblown claims of USCIRF doing this and that and bringdown Modi and getting Kejriwal into power is utter conspiratorial BS, but you seem to be utterly convinced about it, so knock yourself out. (2) India is a large country and a place like Delhi is not as easily manipulated unless you are under the impression that the USA is this super duper power that can bend the universe to its needs (yes, we can see how slamming it went for them in Afghanisthan, Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine)

As for your hyperbole about hindus being lambs led to a slaughter, it has more than a passing resemblance to "Islam Khatrey mein hai"....so I will just leave that alone. No comment.

Is there any doubt that the vast majority of the Indian media want to see khujliwal come to power??

Is there any doubt that many such media houses and their entrenched opinion makers are driven by the same forces that motivate organizations like USCRIF??

Is there any doubt that such media houses are into manipulating public opinion to exclusively suit the AAP??

Is there or is there not a discernible pattern??

Should we just keep quiet?? and ignore it??

What part did you not get??

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 06 Feb 2015 10:49

chetakji,
while your concerns are legitimate,I think Obama understands the limits of american influence peddling and also that a very different dispensation is in power in Delhi which will not tolerate nonsense.

Theres something called force of habit.The US has invested billions of $$ in planting seeds and soul harvesting for both 'humanitarian and strategic' reasons.It will be strange if they dont show any interest in their investment,seedlings and 'harvest'.

I think the real issue from our view is the share croppers,care takers in India.There will be definite 'culling' once Delhi elections are over.we can expect pestcides and removal of weeds as well as definite controls over the seeding process from outside.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2015 10:54

RamaY wrote:[
2. Quoting India's National Security Adviser Sri Doval (refer his speech in Kashmir) There is no indic heritage & beliefs that Islam & Christianity can claim. "The cultural & civilizational heritage of India belongs to Hindus and Hindus alone". So if there is any damage to native heritage & culture it is an onslaught by non-Indic faiths on Hindu heritage & culture.

The whole battle is all about this point. If the Fall of India was fault of Hindus/dharmics then rise of India too belongs to Hindus/ Dharmics.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 11:05

svenkat wrote:chetakji,
while your concerns are legitimate,I think Obama understands the limits of american influence peddling and also that a very different dispensation is in power in Delhi which will not tolerate nonsense.

Theres something called force of habit.The US has invested billions of $$ in planting seeds and soul harvesting for both 'humanitarian and strategic' reasons.It will be strange if they dont show any interest in their investment,seedlings and 'harvest'.

Sirji, while the amrekis as a people are seen very positively in India, their government only manages to generate very deep distrust in the country.

Obama is a very lame duck president. No POTUS would have had the time that he spent in India were he a go getter or even a POTUS with some work to do at home. Just imagine him landing up at the KSA as a supplicant, with the FLOTUS not covering her head, as indeed she did, while visiting some other insignificant muslim countries. This is the first clue that he has some religious agenda that he is following ( or advised to follow ) for some legacy/image salvation of his place in history.

The amreki gardening habits are US government driven right from before the first WW.

While I appreciate your well taken point of the ROI motive in the harvest, should we just lie back because some folks are embarrassed by CTs or just keep quiet and let it happen??

This is a harsh reality that is confronting us now because many people have woken up (thanks to the internet, mostly) otherwise it was all flying under the radar.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 06 Feb 2015 11:34

Chetak, if you read what I wrote, I am not disagreeing that there are evangelical organizations and "secular" groups and the Indian media deliberately creating bad publicity, but it is a stretch to conclude that they are all being motivated by the same group.

Is there any doubt that the vast majority of the Indian media want to see khujliwal come to power??

So? That is only true of the English media which does not have much influence overall to most of the populace that does not read them. How many of the voters in Delhi read Shekar Gupta's flatulence or any of the MESM before voting? seriously. If Kejriwal comes to power, it is because he is offering all these freebies to con people into voting for him, that much is obvious.

Is there any doubt that many such media houses and their entrenched opinion makers are driven by the same forces that motivate organizations like USCRIF??

Sounds like your mind is already made up -- but USXYZ is a congressional organisation and there may be other organizations with similar motivations of opinion manufacturing...assuming they are all funded and motivated by the same set of people is a logical leap of faith in one's own conclusions...that's about it.

Is there or is there not a discernible pattern??

Pattern to what? There is certainly a lot of yelling and screaming by "minority groups", specifically evangelical groups that are trying to portray a false image of being persecuted by the hindus...but let's see where it gets them.

Should we just keep quiet?? and ignore it??

What part did you not get??

The part I don't get is the conspiratorial BS of some mysterious "force" that is driving myriad organizations to get Kejriwal into power and all the hyperbole that this is equivalent to leading hindu lambs to a slaughter...if hindus are indeed that weak, then may as well roll over and die, no? what's the point of it all anyway, right?

Kejriwal is certainly an anarchist and a congenital liar who is willing to say anything to come into power, and India survived 10 years of MMS and Sonia, so I am sure it can survive a Kejriwal in New Delhi. If he repeats anything like what he did in the 40 days he was in power, and I am pretty sure he will screw it up, then this will be the last time he comes anywhere near power.

Anyway, I think we can just carry on..not like either of us is making a dent on each other's convictions here.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 06 Feb 2015 11:35

Ramanaji, just mildly annoyed at people going into tangents without bothering to read what I wrote and then getting all uppity about it. Anyway, I am done with that conversation. thanks.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2015 11:47

O'Bomber's reference to "Gandhi being sad",blah,blah, in the media today,indicates that the US pres and establishment has learnt nothing at all from the visit and is resorting to its usual India bashing once it gets home after rewarding the Pakis with another billion ,outrageously given to them to "improve" relations with India!

The Modi govt. should take careful heed of the US attitude post-visit,especially after India received the US pres in fashion that even Snake-oil Singh would be jealous of,he then being in "love" with Dubya Bush!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 12:00

Tuvaluan wrote:Chetak, if you read what I wrote, I am not disagreeing that there are evangelical organizations and "secular" groups and the Indian media deliberately creating bad publicity, but it is a stretch to conclude that they are all being motivated by the same group.

not same group, --- similar groups.

These are groups with different origins, denominations and locations but all have gardening on their yevil little minds. All proudly parading about in India, eager to bring "god" to the pagans and yevil idol worshipers, intent on keenly following the "Indian constitution" while the very people who mostly wrote the constitution are aggressively counseled to show tolerance, somewhat like lambs to the slaughter, showing tolerance towards the sickular butcher, while sharpening his knife for him.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Feb 2015 14:29

Vamsee wrote:What Obama said in India were not innocent comments. It is a warning to Modi Govt not to interfere in religious conversions.

Religious intolerance in India would have shocked Gandhi: Obama

"Michelle and I returned from India - an incredible, beautiful country, full of magnificent diversity - but a place where, in past years, religious faiths of all types have, on occasion, been targeted by other peoples of faith, simply due to their heritage and their beliefs -- acts of intolerance that would have shocked Gandhiji, the person who helped to liberate that nation," Obama said in his remarks at the high-profile National Prayer Breakfast.

President Obama’s above comment comes a scant two days after the US’s NSC Senior Director for South Asian Affairs, Phil Reiner said US President Obama’s comment of “India will succeed so long as it is not splintered along the lines of religious faith ……………..” at his Siri Fort lecture was “misconstrued”.

Inexplicable and offensive stuff from the US President Obama.

I wonder if this is a case of US Foreign Policy towards India having been hijacked by Christist Evangelical Jihadi’s aka Evanjihadis? Or perhaps this is an attempt by the US to somehow ingratiate itself with the Mohammaddens by attacking Hindu’s and India?

Our political leadership must make it known that gratuitious comments on India’s internal affairs by the US are not welcome.:

Readout From President Obama's Trip to India: Perspectives on U.S.-India Relations

Phil Reiner, NSC Senior Director for South Asian Affairs
Washington, DC
February 3, 2015 ……………………..

QUESTION: Yashwant Raj from Hindustan Times. Everything went off very well from start, from time he landed to the time he left, the hug, et cetera. And then at the Siri Fort speech addressed to the nation (inaudible), he referred to religious intolerance and the need for religious tolerance in India. And that was seen – that was taken as a kind of a parting shot, which is – which left a little bit of a – not a bad taste, but an uncomfortable feeling. What was the background for that remark? What was the need for that call? Was it history of riots, of communal tension that India has had? Or Mr. Modi has had some history himself of this. So what was the background for this remark, this part of the remark?

MR. REINER: So I think if you look at the entirety of the speech, the speech was about how both the United States and India have these core democratic values and principles that allow us to continue to provide for all of our people. And this is actually something that I would point to that Prime Minister Modi himself spoke to just the night before in his remarks to the business summit. I don’t believe that this was a parting shot by any means. This was simply the President speaking to what makes us great democratic nations.

And again, the prime minister spoke to the same values and core principles the night previous. If you look at the Delhi declaration, it’s the first statement of the fundamental freedoms as a core principle between the two of us that we agree upon. So yeah, I think that’s been somewhat misconstrued in the – I mean, if you look at the context of the entire speech, it’s really about inclusivity. It’s about the power of diversity. It’s about how the empowerment of every individual within society actually creates economic growth and makes us common partners in all of these initiatives.

So I’d heard the same. It – there was – I wouldn’t insinuate that there’s any baggage there at all. It was more of a speech to what are our common interests and values that help drive us forward.

US Dept Of State

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Feb 2015 15:51

Here's a more detailed version of the speech. He should have been more careful not to hand out brickbats to the likes of SV but all told, there is only one line:

"No society is immune from the darkest impulses of men,” said Obama. “India will succeed so long as it is not splintered along the lines of religious faith.”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... ance-delhi

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Feb 2015 16:11

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 142139.cms
Obama criticized for remarks on ISIS and Christianity - NYT via ET

WASHINGTON: President Barack Obama may have thought he was giving a straightforward history lesson at the National Prayer Breakfast on Thursday when he compared the atrocities of the Islamic State to the bloodshed committed in the name of Christianity in centuries past.

But that is not how many of his longtime critics saw it.

"The president's comments this morning at the prayer breakfast are the most offensive I've ever heard a president make in my lifetime," said Jim Gilmore, the former Republican governor of Virginia. "He has offended every believing Christian in the United States."

Rush Limbaugh devoted a segment of his show to what he said were the president's insults to the "whole gamut of Christians" and Twitter's right wing piled on. Guests on Megyn Kelly's Fox News show spent 15 minutes airing objections to the president's comments.

"Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ," Obama said. "In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ."

Still, the president went on to focus on the terrorism carried out under the guise of Islam, saying that the last few months have shown the degree to which faith can be "twisted and misused in the name of evil."

"From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith - their faith - professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact are betraying it," he said, describing the Islamic State as "a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism."

Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic League, said in a statement that Obama was trying to "deflect guilt from Muslim madmen." He said the president's comparisons were "insulting" and "pernicious."

Gilmore said the comments go "further to the point that Obama does not believe in America or the values we all share."

White House officials had no comment on Thursday night about the criticism.

In his speech, Obama said the use of religion to justify violence and killings "is not unique to one group or one religion."

"There is a tendency in us, a sinful tendency, that can pervert and distort our faith," he said.

The talk of terrorism was the sharpest note in a speech that was otherwise a reflection on religion and humility, and it was Obama's latest effort to avoid branding recent violence by the Islamic State or those professing common cause with it as "Islamic" extremism. His team has said that doing so would play into the hands of terrorist organizations, legitimizing their message.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 17:47

derek o brien, that TMC creep was portraying on TV that obama had spoken out against the NaMo govt and religious intolerance after the "arrest" of church leaders during the protest march in dilli yesterday. There were a whole lot of other worms who came out from under the woodwork to fault the NaMo Govt for religious intolerance. 5 churches were burgled/desecrated and in the same time frame what about the many many temples in dilli that seemed to have suffered the same fate with none to look into it.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-fi ... er-2057719

Who is responsible for this attack?

"These attacks on churches are planned. They are targeting us and the police is trying to make it into a case of theft," said Father Vincent. Though he refused to name who "they" were, he added, "You see the pattern all over the country, you see these cases of ghar wapsi. Why did President Obama and President Mukherjee give speeches on communal harmony? This is a clear sign to them."

John Dayal, senior journalist and founder of the All India Christian Council, said that this was "desecration of a church" since the holiest of symbols were targeted.

What does the police has to say?

Though there are reports of senior police officers claiming this a case of burglary, the ACP present on the scene said that they had put out no official statement. Justice Cyriac Joseph of the NHRC, after inspecting church premises said that to him it seemed a case of "a deliberate attempt to defile a place of worship and objects held sacred by Christians."

A Supreme Court advocate, and a member of St Alphonsa's parish was present to ensure that sections 153(a), 295 and 295(a), pertaining to defiling a place of worship, promoting enmity between different groups and outraging religious feelings are in the complaint filed by to the police.

So far which churches have been vandalised?

Previously, a Catholic Church in Vikaspuri was vandalised, the Christmas Crib at Rohini's Church of Resurrection was burnt, the windows of an Okhla Church were broken and in the worst incident, the St Sebastian Church in Dilshad Garden was gutted in a fire.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Feb 2015 18:09

Next few years, when Republicans - i.e. the majority of US A which is white and fundamentalist - will be the majority in both of USA's parliaments, this will probably continue. If the democrats are like this, what will the Republicans do in the USA parliament?

On the other hand, this is not new. Our direct experience in the J&K, or in the Bangla liberation war, should make us see USA policies in practice.

It is like how people think that most of USA are goody goody people running around to emphasize and insist on secularism - and not religious dogma - but the reality is quite the opposite. Actually, at personal level I always thought that USA is made up of triple PhDs only.

As Indians progress ahead, we need to have more and more investments in defense sector and in increasing competency levels to enter India. The current idea of everyone with religious dogma entering India under pretext of preaching/propagation need to be made strict, and questions need to ask if individuals entering India have actually done real secular work - at least for 30 years - and not at all pseudo secular projects. We can't have teenagers running all over the country preaching religious dogma to little kids - this makes no sense for either students or the dogma pushers wherein either side are not adults and not aware of global conditions.

We need to up the standards of the screening levels, while keeping a very good speed at strictures and standards of cleaning up of hazardous activities. The last time the Europeans landed on the shores, the Indian share in world economy collapsed from about 23-27% to about less than 1%. And even that was called progress by propagandists.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Feb 2015 18:53

What To Do About U.S.-India Relations (Feb 4, 2015)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Feb 2015 18:57

http://www.theunrealtimes.com/2015/02/0 ... a-worried/

COMIC: When PM Narendra Modi left Barack Obama worried

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 06 Feb 2015 19:47

What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Feb 2015 19:48

Gandhi an inspiration for us too: US says after Obama slams 'intolerance'

So at minimum, the WHOTUS/SDOTUS are being thoughtfully nasty here.
The WRONG reaction to these sorts of pokes is to Take Offence and jump around like Energizer Bunnies.

The RIGHT reaction is to say YES! V agree with U completely! MG and most of us are shocked even today to read of the Intolerance around the world. Like in Saudi Arabia where they sneered at FLOTUS Ms. BO, and where POTUS would not have been free to pray to the Lawd Gawd.

In Ferguson MO where young Americans are being gunned down in cold blood by Intolerantz. In Noo Yoik where ppl get attacked for wearing a turban...

And be

as you say this.

Recently I was in a bijnej discussion (I mean lunch). Was asked by an Expert of Greek Origin:
"How eej Patent Protecshun in India? Does it work?"
I said: "Oh, JUST AS WELL as in the Yoo Ess: If joo have $$$ and someone violates your patent then it works 4 joo: you can sue them. If u don't have $$ and those who have $$$$ violate your patent, u r scrood."

That ended that line, he

others

Agreed that this was exactly how it works in the Yoo Ess too.

And then I told them about some ppl getting Yoo Ess Patents after stealing millennia-old Ayurvedic remedies from India, and that GOI told them they could stick their Patents up their Post-ends.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Feb 2015 19:49

LokeshC wrote:What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??

Braying to Save the Souls of the Tolerant Saudis, no doubt.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Feb 2015 20:05

LokeshC wrote:What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??

One day I hope Modi+++ goes to US and speaks of how MLK was an inspiration for us bla bla bla and how US really needs to take better care of its african americans.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 06 Feb 2015 20:11

FWIW, let me try to elaborate on why I take exception to Ombaba's utterings:

One can understand why he said what he said before leaving India. The average western view is that they are the most tolerant societies that were built constitutionally after/around the industrial revolution in Europe. They then brought this to India, among other places, and hence these places have some amount of secularism today, while the western states that derive from the European heavyweights are fully secular. When it comes to India, they cannot be more wrong. Secularism is accepted in the west today, as it has been decreed constitutionally. Indian history shows that secularism and tolerance (not the Congi type) has built into our belief system itself. Which is more fundamental and strongly founded. If the Hindus not believed in tolerance, under Shivaji, they would have taken their revenge for Aurangazeb's actions on the Muslims in Shivaji's kingdom itself, not the mention the other kingdoms in India. But we didn't. What more tolerance can one have after paying for it with blood? Also, he has a soft spot for Gandhi, like many others in the US (MLK, etc.). He refers to Gandhi thinking of him as a secular from the western PoV, but Gandhi was nothing of that sort. He himself castigated evangelical activities many times (links were posted above). Anyway, given all this, Ombaba with his western education does not 'get it' when he preaches tolerance to us.

As for the impact of what he said: given the above point, I was prepared to give him the space after his first utterances before leaving for Saudi (oh the irony!). After all, with NaMo at the helm, I will cut some slack. It was unnecessary, considering our media will give a lot of coverage to it, but inevitable. He has to reassure his constituency back home after some pappi-jhappi with NaMo. Our NDTV types will shout about this warning for sometime, but die down in a week or so. But referring to it the second time just a week after departing from New Delhi indicates something more than just misunderstanding. Couching it in Christianity's faults notwithstanding, for there was no need to bring up his experience in India. Considering that he stopped by Riyadh on the way back, talking only about India shows there *is* some agenda at play. If truly neutral, he should have mentioned Saudi oppression, but he didn't.

Now, by harping on the same point only w.r.t. India means that our media will pick it up and tom-tom it as a warning to NaMo and GoI. Not that I want Ombaba to be aware of Indian media's faults, but the US and global media will also take their cue to bash India when convenient. After all, they have a few quotes from a 'Nobel peace prize holder US Prez'. Agencies like USCRIF have issued adverse reports in the past, and I have no reason to believe they will change. In fact, these statements will only serve as goalposts for them. And it is convenient that a few churches have been vandalized in the last few weeks in Delhi - fodder for their next report.

Tuvaluan-ji said these reports are nothing more than toilet paper. I agree. But our media wouldn't, and the US led global media will definitely not. They will keep harping on such nonsense, and will convince many potential tourists to stay away, in spite of making the visa processes easier. And any incident (false flag or otherwise) will be blown out of proportion, with sanctimonious references to Ombaba's utterances. And that will be the overall narrative, and it will stick in spite of what we do on the ground.

As for the non-English Indian media, whether we like it or not, they are held on a pedestal by the non-English speaking populace in India. It is seen as aspirational to be able to follow the English language media. So, even if the desi language papers may not care about these things, the fact that the English media does will influence them to a certain extent.

Anyway, in summary, I am not blaming Ombaba for the faults of our media, just saying that he could have stayed away from such comments. But my keeping quiet on this is not an option.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 20:14

LokeshC wrote:What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??

It is also an occasion to reward EJs and others of influence from various countries who are invited for such breakfasts. Many Indians have been to this preying breakfast.

Presumably gardening skills, sowing and harvesting techniques along with fertilizer application and yield quantity optimization is discussed in detail.

A regular kissan sammelan like we have in India onlee.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 06 Feb 2015 20:17

Karan M wrote:
LokeshC wrote:What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??
One day I hope Modi+++ goes to US and speaks of how MLK was an inspiration for us bla bla bla and how US really needs to take better care of its african americans.

VHP has already said so

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Feb 2015 20:17

how US really needs to take better care of its african americans.

See? That would be so undiplomatic. Modi should speak of the Shared Values of Caring About Minorities and NEVER AGAIN allow incidents like Little Big Horn and Ferguson to occur.

Arshyam:
If one looks at this sitting in Ulan Bator, what one sees is BO, an AA, speaking about how Democracies Need to Ensure Rights 4 All. If one sits in Ulan Bator in a nbd that is 99% T-Party, what one sees is an AA going and confessing/

to other AAs / SNs, GWs etc that the Yoo Ess is intolerant.
And it makes them

NOOOO sense in desis getting dhotis in a knot over this.

FYI, Dera Atlanta Khan celebrates Gandy-day much more than India does. At MLK Center.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2015 20:20

We could equate Custer with Godse and tick them off for glorifying custer

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 06 Feb 2015 20:21

Batoriji,
Then he should have not opened his mouth about India.Talk only about AA SN in UB onleee no?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Feb 2015 00:12

I take the position that BO and FLOTUS have a 400% jay-new-wine admiration for India, and see India as a symbol of the victory of reason, tolerance and ideas over blind hate and military power and colonialist greed. Remember that both are actually well-educated, very accomplished people. They genuinely see the rise of India as a validation that AAs and SNs and GWs can become superpowers, and build their own identity and not be "assimilated" into the 'majority'.

Take a lot of this unsolicited advice and well-wishing as coming from that - it is sincere. Once you put those glasses on, their attitudes look a lot different.

Now... let us be clear on one thing: they still have one huuuuuge blind spot: they still sing

Amazing Grace

taught to their ancestors on those wonderful free cruise ships coming from West Africa to East America. They still see THAT as the route to Save Da Souls of India.

But as Miller told Mallory at the end of "Phorj Dus phrom Navarone", give them time, they will eventually come around to the next stanza of A.G:

I once...
was blind.. But now I see..

Right now, it is too hard a concept to convey to their "flocks".
Despite that, there is no point in seeing them as the enemy. Getting back to the core: They genuinely admire India, and look to India as an inspiration.

What's the alternative?

Chairman Mao would have been shocked at the intolerance?

Mohammed Ali Jinnah would have been shocked at the intolerance?

Simon LeGree would have been shocked at the intolerance?

Those who rail at the minor imperfections of BO simply have noooooooo idea, or prefer not to think, of the magnitude of the poo between the ears of the Alternatives.