India-US Relations : News and Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Aug 2014 22:11

Two things about Ferguson, Missouri Police response:

The elite establishment circumvented the Posse Committas amendement by supplying military gear to police forces in US.
The question of slave ownership in Missouri was one of the root causes of the US Civil War.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Aug 2014 22:17

ArmenT wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:There is something seriously wrong with US of A and even some other western societies. We also have the poor, downtrodden and the ghetto/slum dwellers, but they do not behave like this. They do not even have the welfare cakes that these westerners shamelessly consume while cursing the society they live in. Our poor and downtrodden, even when they live worse than animals, behave like civilized people. Have you ever heard of the slum dwellers of Mumbai coming out and looting stores ?(I know that peacefuls are an exception, but I don't include them).
Erm, there are plenty of instances of slum dwellers in the South looting stores. E.g. after MGR's death, Indira Gandhi's death, Cauvery water sharing agreement, Anti-Hindi agitations etc.

Same happened in Bangalore after Raj Kumar's death

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2014 22:20

same $hit happens all over the world, but if the cops or the nation that treat other nations like a cop, must know they are not clean. that is the point to be taken out here.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 17 Aug 2014 22:47

UlanBatori wrote: But burning down desi , chinese, korean owned stores? That is because they are racist savages who deserve absolutely no sympathy.

Sure. Who would say that looters and rioters deserve any sympathy? Who is even arguing for that here?

Both needs proper law enforcement - effective community policing without trigger-happy shooting at unarmed people AND clamping down and preventing rioting.

One does not excuse the other, but clearly, if the shooting did not happen, rioting would not have happened too, no?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Aug 2014 22:48

ramana wrote:Two things about Ferguson, Missouri Police response:

The elite establishment circumvented the Posse Committas amendement by supplying military gear to police forces in US.
The question of slave ownership in Missouri was one of the root causes of the US Civil War.

The militarization of American Policing agencies (both local and federal) is a thing of reality. people don't realize this, but American internal policing can be organized into an Army of its own, if such a need were to ever arise.

and Hollywood obediently glorifies this trend.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Aug 2014 23:05

clearly, if the shooting did not happen, rioting would not have happened too, no?

Depends on one's pov: could we ask the store clerk who was brutalized by the armed robber for his pov? What he do to deserve that?

Also if Michael Brown (pbuh) did not try to grab the gun of a police officer AFTER brutalizing a store clerk and robbing the store, why would the officer have even drawn his gun?

This is plainly a community of congenital liars: they presented this initially as a high school student innocently taking a walk, and a racist policeman just coming up and emtpying a gun into him even after he was down on the ground. Now we see that the facts are far, very far from that. Liars, all of them.

And I bet when the facts are all in, that we see that Michael Brown (pbuh) and his buddies did that sort of thing as their evening pastime. Karma came to one of them eventually...

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 17 Aug 2014 23:27

UlanBatori wrote:
clearly, if the shooting did not happen, rioting would not have happened too, no?
Depends on one's pov: could we ask the store clerk who was brutalized by the armed robber for his pov? What he do to deserve that?

Also if Michael Brown (pbuh) did not try to grab the gun of a police officer AFTER brutalizing a store clerk and robbing the store, why would the officer have even drawn his gun?

This is plainly a community of congenital liars: they presented this initially as a high school student innocently taking a walk, and a racist policeman just coming up and emtpying a gun into him even after he was down on the ground. Now we see that the facts are far, very far from that. Liars, all of them.

And I bet when the facts are all in, that we see that Michael Brown (pbuh) and his buddies did that sort of thing as their evening pastime. Karma came to one of them eventually...

The irony in the broad generalization that atleast one of the strongest defenders of 'Murica Strong! faith on the forum has admitted to belonging to this community (you havent admitted this yet) is not lost upon many. Strange are the turns of fate.

Its a small town of 20,000. FBI house to house visits have happened. Why is it not pacified then?

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 17 Aug 2014 23:38

Its not a bad idea to reopen Understanding US thread. Racism, racist attitudes, no change in the basic white power structures even while the population is increasingly getting diversified are all serious issues and can't be debated in seriousness in positive news thread me think.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Aug 2014 23:41

Depends on one's pov: could we ask the store clerk who was brutalized by the armed robber for his pov? What he do to deserve that?

or anyone working these graveyard shifts many who have suffered worse fates

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Aug 2014 01:11

Arun Menon wrote:There is something seriously wrong with US of A and even some other western societies. We also have the poor, downtrodden and the ghetto/slum dwellers, but they do not behave like this. They do not even have the welfare cakes that these westerners shamelessly consume while cursing the society they live in. Our poor and downtrodden, even when they live worse than animals, behave like civilized people. Have you ever heard of the slum dwellers of Mumbai coming out and looting stores ?(I know that peacefuls are an exception, but I don't include them).

The difference may be in voting. India's poor vote; America's disproportionately black poor vote in very small numbers, and in fact the localized election systems and the lack of a holiday on voting day, along with restrictive local policies targeted to make it harder for blacks to vote, all combine to make them disenfranchised. There is a very long century-plus history of American governments doing this, which American media will call state-sponsored electoral fraud if it happens in any other country.

Ferguson is a majority black township with very low black representation in politics and administration. So, the wonder is that more riots don't happen. When riots do happen, it benefits those who want to continue with the electoral fraud.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Aug 2014 01:19

KLNMurthy wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:There is something seriously wrong with US of A and even some other western societies. We also have the poor, downtrodden and the ghetto/slum dwellers, but they do not behave like this. They do not even have the welfare cakes that these westerners shamelessly consume while cursing the society they live in. Our poor and downtrodden, even when they live worse than animals, behave like civilized people. Have you ever heard of the slum dwellers of Mumbai coming out and looting stores ?(I know that peacefuls are an exception, but I don't include them).
The difference may be in voting. India's poor vote; America's disproportionately black poor vote in very small numbers, and in fact the localized election systems and the lack of a holiday on voting day, along with restrictive local policies targeted to make it harder for blacks to vote, all combine to make them disenfranchised. There is a very long century-plus history of American governments doing this, which American media will call state-sponsored electoral fraud if it happens in any other country.

Ferguson is a majority black township with very low black representation in politics and administration. So, the wonder is that more riots don't happen. When riots do happen, it benefits those who want to continue with the electoral fraud.

Voting percentage -- 12%

Reasons -- disillusionment with the electoral system (2 parties, primary selection, limited choice), disenfrenchisement (voting laws and document requirements, criminal disbarrment, voting hours/work hour conflicts, more), itinerant population, dislike of authorities, more.

Remember, less than a majority of those left eligible (after reductions via disenfranchisement, and not counting the 10+ million undocumented) ever bother to vote. Split between the two parties evenly, no administration ever achieves a third of population support. No wonder the USA will never convert to a direct vote.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 18 Aug 2014 01:41

UlanBatori wrote:Also if Michael Brown (pbuh) did not try to grab the gun of a police officer AFTER brutalizing a store clerk and robbing the store, why would the officer have even drawn his gun?

1. we only have the concerned cop's word for this, so far.

2. that cop (according to his own admission) did not stop the guy as a suspect for robbing. he stopped him for 'blocking the road'. there would be no reason to draw gun in this case.

Liars, all of them.

including the cops.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 18 Aug 2014 01:44

voter suppression (by id laws, restricted voting hrs and voting availability etc) combined with gerry mandering has gotten republicans having majority in house despite vote count less by millions than democrats. this is a form of disenfranchisement.

india should send observers and release reports on US elections.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Aug 2014 02:16

he stopped him for 'blocking the road'. there would be no reason to draw gun in this case.

Quite true, Gus. But what happened next is what (per the cop/his superiors/lawyers/spin-artists/white-dominated media) led to the shooting. The claim is that he asked him to get off the middle of the road. The "Buddy" claims that this instruction was delivered in the usual English (cricket) Gentlemanly manner and tone that we all expect from public servants:

GET OFF the ***KING MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! GET ON THE ***KING SIDEWALK!

By English / ICC standards that was just friendly banter, informal advice. No reason for the Peaceful Model Citizen to try grabbing the policeman's gun, which if it happened WOULD explain why the gun came out immediately thereafter and was discharged. Let's see..

Unfortunately, what comes out in court in these things is rarely the clear truth: see the Trayvon Martin case. It is (in English cricket lingo) a *** Ring Circus.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Aug 2014 02:20

Gus wrote:voter suppression (by id laws, restricted voting hrs and voting availability etc) combined with gerry mandering has gotten republicans having majority in house despite vote count less by millions than democrats. this is a form of disenfranchisement.

india should send observers and release reports on US elections.

Absolutely, but these things are best done by "public" meaning nothing to do with the guvrmand, organizations. The Global Civil Liberties Report of the Indian Commission For International Religious and Racial Freedom and Equity

I saw recently that now we in Ulan Bator go, not by the US News &Whirled RePort Ranklings, (which replaced the Oxford/Cambridge Equestrian Queen's Brittania University Ranklings-What-What) but by the Shanghai Rankings for universities and colleges. THERE u go! Signs of the times!

~~Hu Dares, Wins~~

Hu Busts His Butt Instead of Yada-Yada, Wins

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 18 Aug 2014 02:43

Happy Janmashtami from Tulsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK1AZAEBzyQ

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 18 Aug 2014 03:15

Firstly, the grabbing of the police officers gun is the version of the story that is being given out by the police. There surely is an alternative version but I am touched by your readiness to believe the police version. Pardon me if I don't share the same enthusiasm for believing in Bull O'Connor wannabes.

Secondly you don't get the point we are trying to make. Society is like a pot on boil. You want it to be simmering else society decays. You don't want it to boil over either in a pressure cooker scenario because the resulting explosion is too d damaging. What the US has done by its war on drugs and other arrant nonsense is that it has removed any sort of pressure release mechanism. Mandatory sentencing guidelines and the three strikes policy means that the slightest mistake results in you going away for a long time. Getting a felony record is all too easy and with that your chances of getting meaningful unemployment are zero. Now these laws are disproportionately applied against blacks and Hispanics who have little avenues with which to vent their frustration. Add to that the American two party system which means not many avenues exist to hear their grievances. Lately with the advent of "freedom zones" placed more than a mile away from actual place of relevance even peaceful protest it's not possible. In such circumstances what do you expect the people to do?

Lastly I humbly how to your superior prescience in labeling an entire community as liars.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 18 Aug 2014 05:36

UlanBatori wrote:
Gus wrote:voter suppression (by id laws, restricted voting hrs and voting availability etc) combined with gerry mandering has gotten republicans having majority in house despite vote count less by millions than democrats. this is a form of disenfranchisement.

india should send observers and release reports on US elections.
Absolutely, but these things are best done by "public" meaning nothing to do with the guvrmand, organizations. The Global Civil Liberties Report of the Indian Commission For International Religious and Racial Freedom and Equity

I saw recently that now we in Ulan Bator go, not by the US News &Whirled RePort Ranklings, (which replaced the Oxford/Cambridge Equestrian Queen's Brittania University Ranklings-What-What) but by the Shanghai Rankings for universities and colleges. THERE u go! Signs of the times!

~~Hu Dares, Wins~~

Hu Busts His Butt Instead of Yada-Yada, Wins

Hu's on first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2014 06:05

In the US its a policy of "shoot first and cover up any mistakes later".As long as the NRA and "gun-g ho",pun intended,yanquis lust after firearms so that one day their wet dream ,"make my day",might be fulfilled,we will enjoy the spectacle of the US destroy itself.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Aug 2014 06:18

tanaji

while I dont tend to believe cops version - am also not sure about the other side in this case
Sharpton is now railing on TV that it was just a shoplifting

hopefully someone shot a cell video and it comes out

in the Trayvon martin case I could be on his side - as one the poor kid was just walking home and second the 911 person asked that retarded Zimmerman to stay away and wait for cops. unfortunately justice was not served there

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Aug 2014 06:47

See - if the store clerk had pulled a gun and ended the robbery and assault right there, it would be far worse than the Zimmerman incident because the store clerk is only a desi. Would have been charged with murder, maybe lynched by now.

The elite establishment circumvented the Posse Committas amendement by supplying military gear to police forces in US.

Ramana: "Riot Gear" including APCs are standard response in US riots - see Detroit, Kent State, Philadelphia, Watts, Miami, Atlanta. Like I said, it's just the only way to ensure that an outnumbered police force can face a mob which probably has lethal weapons, and not take heavy losses.

In Indian riots, typically the casualty rate is like 1 policeman for every rioter, or maybe 2 rioters. Gujarat 2002: some 600 innocents, 200 rioters, 200 policemen dead, countless numbers injured. Golden Temple: 150 soldiers killed, maybe 30 terrorists killed. If the US allowed that, police would be swamped. The fear is maintained only by "overwhelming force". I don't see what they did differently in Ferguson: if anything, they have made a complete pigs' breakfast in allowing a second, third and 4th round of looting and burning. Heads should roll in the administration.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Aug 2014 07:21

Support for the Klingon Outfits

While Bernard Kerik, a former New York City Police commissioner, said the show of force was too excessive while protestors peacefully demonstrated, he said the police have a responsibility to protect personal property.
"You can't let thugs take over the city. We saw that the other day. The police had to respond," he said on CNN, referring to instances of looting.
On police militarization in general, Kerik said the increased militarization of the police started in the 1990s during the height of the war on drugs and continued after the 9/11 attacks and has continued because of mass shootings in schools and public places.
"It's absolutely needed," he said.

The namby-pambys are all

about police pointing guns at protestors. Like they've been out on Mars the past 30 years! This is AmeriKA. As McLean sang:

We burned the city 'case they wouldn't agree
But things go better with Demohcrazee!!

Police come in using APCs because they have them, and they are harder for a gang of 6 to overturn, than a car is. They have someone on top keeping watch so that Molotov cocktails aren't thrown under the tracks. And that someone has their hand on the trigger of a machine gun because that is SOP for preparedness. And they aim at anything that moves, 'cause that is the style of the American Wild West: he hu draws first lives. All perfectly logical.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Aug 2014 07:39

The other thing that ppl don't understand is that most police departments have ppl who returned from Eyerak and Afghanistan. Policemen have been taking lucrative contractor assignments in these two places, and they come back, they probably are encouraged to keep equipment because they are called back. I've seen plenty of such ppl on the flights from DXB. So they come back, they go into a zone where people are yelling obscenities at them, they feel they are back on the streets of Kandahar or Herat or Fallujah, and the IEDs and RPGs are around the corner. They immediately revert to their training: keep eye to the sniper sight, keep weapon pointed at anything that moves, finger on the trigger. Only way to stay alive!

Plus, remember that 90% of these guys are coming back with PTSS. They see a Molotov Cocktail arc through the air, they're back in Baghdad. All bets are off.

But it's better than letting ISIS run things, hain? And the Ferguson Citizens, sorry, are indeed 1 step removed, if that, from the ISIS as far as desis are concerned.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Aug 2014 08:31

ramana wrote:Two things about Ferguson, Missouri Police response:

The elite establishment circumvented the Posse Committas amendement by supplying military gear to police forces in US.
The question of slave ownership in Missouri was one of the root causes of the US Civil War.

Ramana,

The Ferguson incident and response is not really surprising, may be the response is a little. Its been wink-wink nudge-nudge re. arming the police since 9/11. Today backwaters of St Louis, tomorrow who knows.

There is little understanding in our little dialog here that disenfrenchisement is today's reality, total segregation in the parents' generation, and slavery only a generation or two away. This is not ancient history. We choose not to see this reality in Oakland, Chicago, Brooklyn, or Baltimore let alone Ferguson. It is like pretending slums dont exist in Mumbai.

Looking up the age diustribution of Ferguson on wiki is instructive as well. It is a young town, with under 45s fighting the harsh realities of todays economy with no real support systems to fall back on. Hardly any real societal structure left.

I am surprised at the enthusiasm of certain posters in taking strong positions in one corner or the other. My own jaw is struck open just as it was during Katrina. When it comes to shove, we (the brown) are just as black as the africans in this system. And we have no temples to match their churches. What begets those downtrodden today will befall our kin in the coming generation. If one will get any sympathy, it will be from the black and not the white. This is just a teachable moment, exposing gaps that have been covered up, if only momentarily. Its not just china that walls off its poor.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Aug 2014 08:39

UlanBatori wrote:See - if the store clerk had pulled a gun and ended the robbery and assault right there, it would be far worse than the Zimmerman incident because the store clerk is only a desi. Would have been charged with murder, maybe lynched by now.

The elite establishment circumvented the Posse Committas amendement by supplying military gear to police forces in US.
Ramana: "Riot Gear" including APCs are standard response in US riots - see Detroit, Kent State, Philadelphia, Watts, Miami, Atlanta. Like I said, it's just the only way to ensure that an outnumbered police force can face a mob which probably has lethal weapons, and not take heavy losses.

In Indian riots, typically the casualty rate is like 1 policeman for every rioter, or maybe 2 rioters. Gujarat 2002: some 600 innocents, 200 rioters, 200 policemen dead, countless numbers injured. Golden Temple: 150 soldiers killed, maybe 30 terrorists killed. If the US allowed that, police would be swamped. The fear is maintained only by "overwhelming force". I don't see what they did differently in Ferguson: if anything, they have made a complete pigs' breakfast in allowing a second, third and 4th round of looting and burning. Heads should roll in the administration.

I hate to wade into this again, but the scale does not match. Gujarat or Golden Temple are entirely irrelevant. This is a little town of 20,000 with still a 30% or so god's choosen race and only 400 odd defenders. Why compare these events. Neither the events preceding Gujarat nor Golden Temple apply.

I have nothing to say re. principle of excessive force against unarmed civilisns.

One person has been hurt in over a week's protesting. Property losses are larger (still not comarable), but what tossed that opportunistic domino is not entirely without doubt.

Lets not create narratives about "communities" when their chosen representatives are not defending them here.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Aug 2014 09:27

Gus wrote: One does not excuse the other, but clearly, if the shooting did not happen, rioting would not have happened too, no?

The real question is did he or did not resist arrest? Did he or did he not scuffle with the officer? Only after these two (and similar questions are answered) can one go to the next step - % representation of African Americans in the ferguson police force, whether mike brown had any prior police record etc. in any case the riots have to stop first and cooler heads need to prevail.

Just returned from the city ferguson is a suburb of. Not found any racism nor riots even that close. The situation is like riots in shah Ali Banda but people in vidyanagar, himayatnagar, duegabai deshmukh colony are going about their life totally unaware of the number of stab wounds getting treated on osmania general.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Aug 2014 09:40

devesh wrote:and Hollywood obediently glorifies this trend.

Devesh boss whatever you say, I still love Beverly Hills cop, (II and III) and waiting for IV. Eddie Murphy is my main man.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 18 Aug 2014 09:54

Meanwhile on the record (and reported in some newspapers...) while Indian PM didn't mention US or Pakistan on this August 15's Red Fort speech (masterful speech IMO), State Department in US does...

Assistant Secretary Biswal's office said that "Obama administration was aware of India’s request for additional access to terror mastermind David Coleman Headley and that request was currently under discussion.

And also " U.S. was very committed to working with India to bring to justice the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks and to advance cooperation between the U.S. and India to ensure that such an attack does not happen in the future.”

And the defense Scry Hagel is quoted to compare Modi with Obama..
.

"There are few places in the world other than India and the US where the son of a tea-seller in a small time town can rise to be the Prime Minister or the child of a Kenyan father can rise to be president,"

What I noticed is the headline...(In one UQ newspaper)
"Hagel compares Modi with Obama"

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 18 Aug 2014 12:33

Desi cops are pretty liberal with non lethal measure. A jhapad, lathi on calfs etc... But they are very careful with lethal measures. 1st of they are not very well trained in using the duty revolver or 303. Desi janta is perhaps peaceful in that way.

I saw 2 incidents. One was in Chennai when some random group was demonstrating very aggressively on the road leading upto Raj Bhawan. There were 200 protesters, who clearly wanted to approach Raj Bhavan. There were easily 300 policemen / police women equally determined to stop them. None carried weapons. The nice lady contingent stood behind the male cop line and I could see lady protesters peacefully lined up and getting on the police bus. I was in the front with traffic backed up behind me till Mount Road. The Inspector guy was in thick of things physically standing between the protesters and the police line (with Lathi but no other riot gear). Protesters clearly didn't want to touch the inspector. Another batch of police men kept nabbing and dragging protesters to police van. In sometime police line moved and protesters were contained on side walk and traffic opened.

2nd in Delhi during the gang-rape agitation. Here too I found the inspector standing between the crowd and the massive deployment behind him. This time totally unarmed even though people were hostile and I saw a few projectiles thrown at police lines.

I think our cops demonstrate massive amount of empathy with protest culture.

I saw one protest in Hong Kong too... thats another story... No looting there either.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Aug 2014 12:40

changed title of thread.

please discuss US news that doesn't involve India in "Understanding US" thread.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2014 14:36

del.

see above post.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 19 Aug 2014 12:31

https://twitter.com/KanchanGupta/status ... 4467651584

@KanchanGupta
What is interesting is that PM @narendramodi has called off talks with Pakistan a month before he meets Obama. Amrikis must be confounded:)