Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 14 Jul 2017 08:21

https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/high- ... t-doka-la/
Commentary
HIGH NOON IN THE HIMALAYAS: BEHIND THE CHINA-INDIA STANDOFF AT DOKA LA
JEFF M. SMITH
JULY 13, 2017

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 14 Jul 2017 10:04

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column ... ty-2501256
Strategic maturity cannot resolve the situation on the ground in Sikkim.

The month-long face-off between India and China on the Sikkim border is, doubtless, “different from the frictions that (had) happened (earlier) in the undefined sections of the border”, as Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said on July 12. For India, it is different, but not in the way the Chinese see it.
How it is different for India is best illustrated by RSS-affiliated think-tank members continuing with their visits to China in spite of the border impasse. India has not allowed its amour propre to be ruffled by either official China’s belligerent reactions or the Chinese media’s fulminations. On the contrary, India’s ruling political forces and foreign policy establishment have responded with a cool which is calculated to impress that New Delhi has the “strategic maturity” to handle this as it had handled similar incidents in the past. Besides, New Delhi seems determined not to let the border situation affect economic and cultural interactions.
Like sections of the Indian media, RSS-linked outfits have been blowing hot and cold against China over the Sikkim stand-off. Despite their aggressive posturing, these think-tank members are going ahead with their visits to China. Last week, a delegation — two members of which were reported (wrongly) to have been denied visas — went ahead with their travel. Earlier this week, another delegation — of the India Foundation — went to Fudan University in Shanghai for its “annual bilateral dialogue”. This delegation reportedly includes Prafulla Ketkar, editor of the RSS weekly Organiser, which has been lashing out at China in its typical nationalist form, and Nehru Memorial Museum Library Director Shakti Sinha.
This is a reflection of the “strategic maturity” that Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar called upon China to exercise while speaking in Singapore on July 11 to mark the 25th anniversary of India-ASEAN relations. By “strategic maturity”, Jaishankar obviously meant “not allowing differences to become disputes” and not letting a single issue in one track hold to ransom a multifaceted relationship. In keeping with this principle, Jaishankar set the context by mentioning the current stand-off on the Sikkim border but did not play it up as a “confrontation”.
That India and China should “not allow differences to become disputes” was a point made by Jaishankar last month in Astana, Kazakhstan after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping met on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit. He recalled this in Singapore as one of two points on which the two leaders had reached a consensus.
....
However, strategic maturity cannot resolve the situation on the ground in Sikkim. It remains to be seen how the two countries address that while seeking to retain their respective “ground realities”.

Gautam

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 14 Jul 2017 10:09

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nsa- ... 01711.html
While India-China tensions simmer, NSA Ajit Doval to visit Beijing for BRICS meet
At this time, when China has upped the ante with its barrage of attacks against India on the issue of tension at the Doklam (Doka La) tri-junction, Ajit Doval's visit could come as a way to cool down temperatures.
Even as the military stand-off at the border continues between India and China, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval is scheduled to visit Beijing for the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) NSAs meet later this month. The meeting is to be held in the Chinese capital on July 27, 28.
While there are a series of meetings that are taking place ahead of the summit level meeting of the BRICS leadership that would take place later this year which would be hosted by China, this visit of the Indian NSA would be crucial. At this time, when China has upped the ante with its barrage of attacks against India on the issue of tension at the Doklam (Doka La) tri-junction, Ajit Doval's visit could come as a way to cool down temperatures.
....

Gautam

khan · Post by **khan** » 14 Jul 2017 10:56

Has this article been discussed before: https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/hard- ... ith-china/

Paints a less than rosy picture of the situation on the border.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2017 11:08

The situation is serious.The stand-off could last for years as neither side (at the moment) is willing to blink.India is the softer of the two entities,why China has dug in and has resorted to abusive language against India,diatribes appearing ad nauseum in Chinese yellow rags,pardon the pun!
Look at the situ in Korea. The War officially is not over,a ceasefire merely exists. WE have no alternative but to plan for the long term and rebuff China at every occasion. I would even go so far as to boycott the BRICS meet in China condemning it and calling for China's suspension form the organisation until is vacates Indian and Bhutanese territory.It is imperative for India to warn Russia,friends of both,that China has in this instance gone too far,and is prodding the Pakis to continue to attack India through a proxy terror war,As long as this continues,Indo-Chinese relations will go downhill rapidly

There is little point in remaining members of organisations like BRICS,where China intends total domination of the org. and is militarily involved in intrusions into another member's territory.India should also leave the SCO which is again dominated by China.

Just for argument's sake,though my distaste for mil blocs is well-known,what if...what if India threatened by China beyond breaking point sends out feelers to NATO? Would China violate Indian territory if we were members of NATO?

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 14 Jul 2017 11:20

Wow.. What is happening in the world now. Philip genuinely contemplating India joining NATO!

Joke aside, while the situation is serious, it isn't grim or grave yet to contemplate extreme steps. So far the government seems to be handling it with clear headed thinking without dropping its guard on the ground and silently preparing its defence forces for any two front contingencies.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 14 Jul 2017 11:22

khan wrote:Has this article been discussed before: https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/hard- ... ith-china/

Paints a less than rosy picture of the situation on the border.

Posted the same today morning

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 14 Jul 2017 11:22

Iyersan wrote:https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/high- ... t-doka-la/
Commentary
HIGH NOON IN THE HIMALAYAS: BEHIND THE CHINA-INDIA STANDOFF AT DOKA LA
JEFF M. SMITH
JULY 13, 2017

Fyi- Open for discussion

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 11:39

Philip wrote:<snip> I would even go so far as to boycott the BRICS meet in China condemning it and calling for China's suspension form the organisation until is vacates Indian and Bhutanese territory.It is imperative for India to warn Russia,friends of both,that China has in this instance gone too far,and is prodding the Pakis to continue to attack India through a proxy terror war,As long as this continues,Indo-Chinese relations will go downhill rapidly

There is little point in remaining members of organisations like BRICS,where China intends total domination of the org. and is militarily involved in intrusions into another member's territory.India should also leave the SCO which is again dominated by China.

Just for argument's sake,though my distaste for mil blocs is well-known,what if...what if India threatened by China beyond breaking point sends out feelers to NATO? Would China violate Indian territory if we were members of NATO?

1. If we boycott the BRICS and SCO what will happen? Ok let us just consider BRICS. Will the remaining countries side with China or India? That will only end up showing India's weak position in the international order. Further, BRICS is not encroaching on our territory. While BRICS *might* be China led it is not China *owned*. Inside, we can shape its agenda and if we disagree on a particular issue we can act on our own on that specific issue. BRICS is not NATO which binds every member to joint action. Thank god we have saner folks in our GOI. BTW, Modi has assured FULL co-operation to China in making the upcoming BRICS summit a success. Yes this was after Dokalam incident.

2. NATO is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar ..... First, it a euro centric entity. AND if would be foolish for NATO to accept a new member JUST when it is about to enter into a conflict with a more powerful neighbor. I am assuming that NATO folks are not fools.

India can do stuff to show its annoyance far better to China. What does China fear the most? Just like India it fears being surrounded by the US. Let some LOW level babu float the idea of letting the US install a Anti-ballistic radar in Laddakh to help defend *US Homeland* against ICBM threat originating from POK/Iran. While the proposal might sound foolish and it is foolish to imagine an ICBM from POK to LA but it does open up the possibility of placing a very powerful anti-ballistic radar on China's southern periphery bordering Tibet.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 14 Jul 2017 11:39

Philip sir, Chinese are in a hurry, 2008 after the Olympics, Chinese Han have given up their pretence of peaceful raise, they think they have arrived, their success in Indo-China sea has given them confidence.

They tried to bully Pakistan to announce that Gilgit& Baltistan is a province of Pakistan, which they tried to do, but backed off, as J&K has to be a single entity in order that they have a moral right to talk about Kashmir or lay any claim to it, how much ever illegal their claim to it. If they announced Gilgit & Baltistan as their province, then they would not have any claims to Kashmir and what has worked for 70 years, would have gone into drain, the status quo would have changed, India would have abrogated article 370, and many things would have worked out good for India, it was advantage India.

China could push Pakistan into even contemplate such a thought shows the eagerness of and lack of patience on the part of China Hans. They are itching to make the changes on the ground and disrupt the status quo.

The confrontation at Doklam plateau is nothing but the extension of that itch. I expect some irrational move from Chinese Han, as they don't have patience now. So your assertion of this issue dragging for a number of years may prove wrong. There will be some action near tri-junction soon.

I expect the result to be advantageous to India, let's see.

(India got alerted when there were moves by Pakistan at the insistence of Han for a change of status quo)

What I grudgingly admire about the Hans is their application of the principles of "Panchatantra". According to Panchatantra, the way to deal with your neighbour is to constantly needle the neighbours using "saama, daana, Bheda, danda" upayas in order to change the status quo and expand your own interests, even if the neighbour is powerful. "Kaaka-Ulukeeyam" gives strategies you should employ with neighborhood empires.

Unfortunately, India never applied it's own wisdom. We should claim the entire subcontinent and enforce our neighbours to always take actions which are not detrimental to our interests. But then...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 11:42

BTW, India talking of NATO will annoy Russia no ends. Is that what we want?

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 14 Jul 2017 12:04

Han Chinese Achilles heel is CPEC.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 12:07

That is why even a casual reference to US presence in Ladakh, at the junction of India, China and POK will work like nothing else. The Chinese will have nightmares imagining US looking at its activities in and around both Tibet, xinJiang and POK.

Added later: If that is a step too far .. and it is .. lets start with holding regular exercise with US troops in Ladakh.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 14 Jul 2017 12:23

Why Non State actors in India are not bringing in liberation of Tibet as part of current narrative ?
Let few papers publish opinion of some 'Intellectual" calling for independence of Tibet and establishing Taiwanese embassy in Delhi.
After all two can play the game of insults and threats.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Jul 2017 12:38

TKiran wrote:Han Chinese Achilles heel is CPEC.

Nope, Hans' Achilles Heel is actual warfare. We need to go to war NOW over Bhutan.

Projects like CPEC can go either way. If left in peace, I won't bet against them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2017 13:01

He!he! I got the expected response! Sure,NATO might be a "bloc too far" ,but NATO is in Afghanistan,NATO/"5-eyes" nations operate out of DG,so theoretically speaking,what's China's problem if India allows NATO forces to "exercise" with India,honing their winter,high-alt warfare on the Indo-Tibetan border?What if we make these exercises a permanent feature along with annual exercises-no harm to Russia being done mind you!

What China is afeared of is nations ganging up on it challenging its military land/atoll-grab with mil force,not afraid to spar with China if need be.
What will be the killer blow if eco sanctions are imposed upon China as China has a trade advantage with almost every nation it trades in,why it is imerative that India impose eco sanctions upon China.

The Swadeshi Jagran Manch,key member of the Parivar has asked the gOI why railway coach conrtracts are being given to China at such a time? 3 cheers for it!
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 28302.html

RSS affiliate demands contract termination with Chinese Metro contractors
By Express News Service | Published: 13th July 2017 08:36 PM |

NEW DELHI: The RSS affiliate Swadeshi Jagran Manch (SJM) has demanded termination of contracts to Chinese manufacturers for Metro coaches in the wake of the ongoing border tussle between the two countries.

The SJM in a letter to the Prime Minister on Thursday stated that the claim of “Make in India” is a farce since the Chinese resort to assemble the parts in place of manufacturing.

“Two recent announcements are worrying us, which include Chinese company SAIC Motor Corporation Ltd, the joint venture partner of General Motors, taking over its India manufacturing plant at Halol in Gujarat and state owned China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC) – getting a go ahead to set up metro rolling stock manufacturing unit in Multi-Modal International Cargo Hub and Airport in Nagpur,” the SJM convenor Ashwani Mahajan has stated in a letter to the Prime Minister.

He has claimed that the Maharashtra government has already placed an order of 69 coaches worth Rs 851 crores followed by West Bengal ordering more than 100 coaches for their Kolkata plant. “This company will be enjoying a huge market in India at the cost of potential domestic coach building capacity.

The argument of local employment generation with the Chinese investments is farce. Globally, the experience is that Chinese don’t create local employment, but bring their own people and contractors,” said Mahajan, while adding that there is hardly any incident of technology transfer in the case of Chinese investments.

Mahajan further argued that China is adopting policy of opaqueness for its domestic market. “Not only it is not giving space to imports from India, but is also regularly creating troubles for the Indian investors. In last 10 years, China has not registered any drug from Indian manufacturer.

Moreover, it is keeping Indian IT companies at bay not only from the government projects, but also from the other Chinese companies,” added the SJM convenor.

The SJM leader also argued that China is regularly indulging in transgression, incursion and other provoking activities at our borders. “Till now, your government is giving them apt replies, but it would be futile if we don’t halt their economic onslaught. We see this, as a backdoor entry of China in our country’s manufacturing sector, which India can ill afford. SJM demands that these contracts should immediately be terminated, and government must ensure the viable alternative to the Chinese rolling stock manufacturer,” Mahajan has stated in the letter to the PM.

When China is adopting an anti-India policy economically ,why the hell should we continue this farce of appeasement with China?

PS:Perhaps the only nation that can exert some influence upon China Is Russia,but Russia also has large exports of O&G to China,deals worth billions.What Russia can do is to tell China to styop its land-grab nibbling on the entire Indo-Tibet-China front and that it (Russia) can do nothing if India cosys upto the US & co. plus that Russia will continue to supply arms to India as it is a long-standing friend,even if India and China go to war.

Russia has already accepted the fact that India will diversify its arms acquisitions,as it cannot supply everything,some western weapon systems are superior,not in its show window,and that there are genuine concerns about spares and OEM follow up services of Sov/Ru eqpt. that causes availability/operational problems for the 3 services.This latter concern has/is being sorted out by changes made in the Ru parliament,allowing Ru def. entities to negotiate directly with Indian cos.,and the setting up of service centres in India equipped with spares and tech support for all Sov/Ru weapon systems.As long as the bulk of our requirements are met by Russia in sales and JVs,build-in-India ventures,"what-me-worry?" India isn't about to gang up against Russia even if it (yuck) lies in the same cot with Uncle Sam.

India could enter into bi-lateral/multi-lateral agreements with other nations ,to fight together specifically against China. In fact until Germany declared (asininely) war against the US after Pearl Harbour,the US could not automatically go to war with Germany despite the Nazi-Nippon pact. Had Hitler refrained from doing so,and not going to war with Russia,he could've managed to hold onto to the rump of Europe,isolated Britain ,which would've lost its Asian/Far East colonies ,even unto India,by supporting Netaji more forcefully and caused a real mil crisis for Britain in holding onto India. Had the Japanese invasion of Ceylon taken place,using the might of the Imperial Japanese Navy to seize Trinco esp.,the Battle of Leyte Gulf might never have taken place,and in a pincer movement India could've been threatened from both east and west .Following Alexander's route through Mespot and Persia would've paid more dividends than the N.African campaign.There would be no US forces in N.Africa,no Patton at all in Europe The US and Japan would've fought each other to the death in the pacific islands and the Philippines! And Tojo and co. along with Netaji liberated India from Ceylon and Burma.

Interestingly,doing a little research on the issue,the scare of the Japanese was so severe ,that some schools in Madras closed down,sending the children to other schools deep in the Madras Presidency heartland. Had the Japanese got a foothold in Ceylon,that too very easy after the sinking of the POW and Repulse off Malaya,the entire Indian Ocean was defenceless.With the fall of "Fortress Singapore",Churchill's "darkest hour",Ceylon and India were for the picking.A great mistake by the Japanese in not pursuing the issue.
That lesson has not been lost on the Chinese,why they're in Sri Lanka today and why we have to stop them both in the Himalayas and in the island/IOR.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2017 13:41

PPS:Yes,some asinine local Chin commander might go berserk in the oxygen deprived alt of the Himalayas and see him and his forces getting a royal biffing from us and the face-off turning into a spat with the inevitability of it snowballing into a conflict. But as sev. analysts have pointed out,Chian going to war with India,which is not known for land-grabbing from its neighbours,has been on the receiving side of Paki terrorism for decades,resisting the temptation to go to war,is the aggrieved party and will swiftly kill-off the Chinese OBOR gambit,see more (powerful) nations lining up with India,because,just Israel is the West's bulwark in the NEast,so too is India-largest democracy in the world,largest population on the planet,the massive bulwark agsianst Chinese hegemonistic expansion across Asia and the IOR.

The cost of "teaching India another lesson" will be both costly for China in military,economic and diplomatic terms,why it would prefer a long stand-off rather than a swift war.

As a precedence,one could look up the spat between the Soviets and China .This border conflict took 7 months to end and another 12 years to resolve.It may take sev. years ,decades even for India and China to resolve their boundary disputes,esp. with Chinese ambitions of establishing their de-facto global empire.

The Sino-Soviet border conflict was a seven-month undeclared military conflict between the Soviet Union and China at the height of the Sino-Soviet split in 1969. Although military clashes ceased that year, the underlying issues were not resolved until the 1991 Sino-Soviet Border Agreement.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 14 Jul 2017 14:38

Gentlemen, do not lose patience. Have some faith in Modiji. I am sure all moves of the lizard have been gamed by the likes of Shri Doval. India has never joined an organization like the NATO back in the days we were really weak, why do it now? We are not Pakistan. Remember, whatever the Islamic terrorists have done to India, is copied and done to the West later on. China is playing the same game. Erratic behavior in Dhokla if successful will be repeated in South China Sea against smaller nations. We have to hang on. We held on to Siachen all these years, we can do that here also. As each month and each year is passing, we are getting stronger, militarily and economically. China will not attack unless they are 100% sure of complete victory, as otherwise the loss of face will be terrible. Remember China-Vietnam war? Any war is full of uncertainties and this is not 1962. We have to prepare our soldiers and buy ammunition and equipment, and this will avert war on the long run. China has a long way to go before it becomes a military superpower, and there is many a slip between the cup and the lip. It will make mistakes and create enemies in the way. As the good Doctor G used to say the parole of the day is to wait and watch.
Gautam

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jul 2017 15:03

pankajs wrote:That is why even a casual reference to US presence in Ladakh, at the junction of India, China and POK will work like nothing else. The Chinese will have nightmares imagining US looking at its activities in and around both Tibet, xinJiang and POK.

Added later: If that is a step too far .. and it is .. lets start with holding regular exercise with US troops in Ladakh.

pankajs - the assumption in your post is that the Chinese are not scared enough of India. Perhaps this is your assumption because it's definitely not mine

But there is a problem in thinking like this
1. If India needs moral support by inviting the US - then China will understand instantly that they have nothing to worry and that it is India that is worried and all they have to do is sit tight. The US will clear out one day and they can kick Indian butt.
2. If you feel the Chinese are "not scared enough" of fighting India but will be "more scared" because of US troops, they are hardly going to show it. They will act more belligerent because it will not be in their interest to appear weak. Are we then going to attack them feeling more confident because there are US troops on our soil?

With respect - the idea is a bad one. This is not about you personally but all too often I see people on this forum speaking of how we should collaborate with Israelis or USA whenever there is a security threat. This indicates anxiety on the part of the person who suggests it. (The media too often publish articles expressing anxiety about perceived Indian weakness) Anxiety is allowed but bad solutions should not be entertained. We have to fight our battles ourselves. We are alone in this as a nation and if we as individuals are not ready to face the threat ourselves the least we can do is to trust our armed forces and not claim that a US presence will make China more scared

One of the most important things about strength is not to appear and act weak. We can have all the forces and support we want but if we shiver in our dhotis all adversaries will have a laugh.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jul 2017 15:16

ramana wrote:Xi Jin Ping is transforming China from Communist China to nationalist China using Doklam Chu incident.

This is the reverse globalism movement in China.

ramana, forgive me for a little meandering type of response.

I believe that the concept of globalism and nationalism are intertwined in the Chinese culture for two millennia, ever since Confucius appeared on the scene. The line between the two is blurred. Also, the more I think and read about China, the more I am convinced that Communist China is as imperialistic as its 2500-year old predecessors. I will explain these below.

The triple concepts of the Chinese Emperor being the 'Son of the Heaven' (tianzi) to rule the 'Middle Kingdom' (zhongguo) and be responsible for everything under the Heaven (tianxia) have to be kept in the back of mind always to understand Chinese behaviour. As I said earlier, in another context, the Cultural revolution of Mao which wanted to throw away all old practices and ideas labelling them as 'counter-revolutionary' did not or could not do so to these triple concepts. The CPC and the Politburo have practised these meticulously.

Globalism does not eschew national boundaries or nationalism. China would argue that their setting up of AIIB or their formulation of Belt & Road Initiative are indeed truly global in nature. In fact, no such catch-phrase as 'globalism' is without some narrow intentions of one or a few, either. Chinese have always claimed that their empire (the Qing or the Manchus dynasty which had the largest territory and closest to what exists today) ruled over everyone with very benign intentions and only in order to civilize the 'barbarians'. History proves otherwise. Chinese scholars pick and choose 'convenient positions' to buttress their 'carefully formulated historical perspective'. An example is their claim that Zheng He, the eunuch naval commander of the Ming dynasty, was only doing commerce, spreading Chinese culture and educating the barbarians and civilizing them is pathetically false. Historically, the Chinese Emperors have demanded deference and subservience to the Emperor and the Court in order for nations to enjoy 'stability & prosperity'. In Chinese view, such tributary is a small price for patronage from the Middle Kingdom. That is why the Chinese naval commander said at the commissioning ceremony of the Djibouti base yesterday that it was because of "friendly negotiations, and accords with the common interest of the people from both sides".

The remarkable point is the continuum of this idea, among the Chinese Emperors, of Chinese lordship over large sections of Asia, whether they were Han or Mongols(Yuan) or Manchus(Qing). The present-day Emperor, Xi, has been calling for the Asians to rule Asia but this is not even regionalism, let alone globalism, because this is a thinly veiled demand for China to rule Asia; but, the Chinese scholars want to fool everyone into believing that they have a generous, liberal mind. Xi proclaims that BRI is for the 'common destiny & common prosperity' of all people in Asia, Eurasia and Africa. But, that is only to establish Chinese hegemony everywhere and for China to well and truly become the 'Middle Kingdom'. That mindset is the same as that of the Emperors of the various dynasties. During Imperial days, the Chinese might not have been largely aware of far-away places or have had means to establish their suzerainty. They were more limited to Central Asia, Vietnam (Annam), Champa, Sri Vijaya et al. But, the new Chinese Emperor, Xi Jinping, has the means, ambition and the clout to rule far, far away.

Regionalism or globalism, from the Chinese perspective, is that China, as the Middle Kingdom, must be the sole pivot. It brooks no competition to this core idea. This is why I say that globalism and nationalism, oxymoronic as they may sound, are inseparable in Chinese folklore. We can apply various filters such as Thucydides Trap or Heartland Vs. Rimland etc to fit the Chinese challenge into known theories. They may well be true as well but the core idea must be understood. That's why, IMHO, China would be permanently inimical to us because we are not only its sole potential challenger but also our rectitude frustrates China which finds it impossible to ride roughshod over us. The hilarious statements that come from various Chinese quarters are a result of this frustration. During the Ming & Qing dynasties, Annam (as Vietnam was known then) posed a similar challenge to the Chinese. The Vietnamese took a leaf from the Chinese theory of 'zhonhgguo' a step further and said that if China was the Middle Kingdom, it was only for the Northern Hemisphere and the Vietnamese were the Middle Kingdom for the Southern Hemisphere !!

While the nationalist feelings largely remained suppressed during the days of Mao and Chou, as they concentrated on internal dynamics, they were resurrected during Deng Xiaoping’s rule when reform processes were introduced. Since then, nationalism, and that too against Japan, has been a hallmark of the Chinese milieu. When the Qing dynasty collapsed and Sun-yat-Sen became the President in c. 1912, he said that one of the reasons that various colonial powers had bullied the Chinese in the past was because the Chinese lacked a strong sense of nation. He described the Manchus, Uyghurs, Tibetans and the Mongols as alien and said that only the Han Chinese, descendants of the great Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, were true sons of the soil.

From Mao's days, every Chinese President has tightly controlled 'nationalism' in China, unleashing a carefully scripted spectacle of 'nationalism' at appropriately suitable times. These have been largely against the USSR (Mao), Japan (Deng, Hu Jintao, Xi), US (Mao, Jiang Zemin, Xi), Russia (Xi). Just before his first foreign trip, which incidentally was to Moscow, Xi let loose a virulent anti-Russia protest against a much-besieged Russia which desperately needed Chinese friendship, a classic psy-ops. Nowadays, Japan is the favourite target for Chinese nationalism. China claims that its largest loss of territory is to Russia (Eastern Siberia), followed by India and then, Kazakhastan. Of course, it also claims, east to west, Japan to Bhutan & Sikkim because they were all its tributaries once. Some sense of transplanting a long, long bygone era into present circumstances. Unfortunately, this sense of history and entitlement is prevalent among all the Hans due to indoctrination.

Compared to the nationalistic feelings against the 'usual countries' namely Russia, US and Japan, I don't think that Doka La generates so much resonance within China, even by design, at this point. The CPC can change all that quickly if it wants, but it has not happened. Global Times, Peoples Daily, Tsinghua University scholars are another matter and they are always there. Shrill voices from these sources are not the barometer of raising feverish nationalism, IMHO.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jul 2017 15:28

Article by YusufDFI
http://m.deccanherald.com/section.php?u ... cid=24&p=1
India-China face-off: Ties gone sour

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 14 Jul 2017 16:09

SS sir, as always, excellent and accurate description of Han Chinese mentality...

Han are obsessed with yellow race internally.

What I mean is that externally they consider yellow race superior to white and browns (mlechchas).

But they are more obsessed with establishing Han as superior to Japanese, Vietnamese, Tibetan, uyighirs, Bhutanese, manchus, mangolians, and other yellow races.

When I was talking to ordinary Han, they are so passionate in explaining how these other yellow races (extreme animosity to Japanese) which got Chinese script, language, technology etc, how they dominated and subjugated, and how much victimized by them, despite Han being superior.

The recent spurts in Han nationalism is because, they started thinking that they some how arrived and established their superiority in yellow races, and only thing remaining is to establish their superiority over whites.

What is interesting in current state of Han superiority is that they are completely clueless about browns (browns are equivalent to blacks, as seen in massa society of today), though they have a bit of experience with Muslims courtesy Pakistan, their ignorance and complete cluelessness about Indians is very interesting. They still think that they are the only other country in the world apart from US. There's no other challenger to them.

Han get their spines soaked with sweat when I argue that India is a challenger. They just can't digest.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2017 16:23

a danger mark will when university students are bussed in for angry protests in front of the indian consulate in peking and cctv gives it prime time coverage, along with 50centers fanning out in all online chinese forums to rouse the masses.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 14 Jul 2017 16:38

Having managed and worked with several Chinese from all parts of China for over a decade, and indulging in conversations with them to have their perspectives, i fully agree with SSridharji and TKiran.

Chinese society thinking hasn't evolved from feudalistic, imperialistic and racial superiority mindset prevalent in the 19th century. Only the evolution of feminist thought is the progressive positive development in the past 70 or 80 years of Chinese mindset.

- Chinese consider themselves as the top of Asian (yellow) races. They are unable to forgive and forget Japanese because they demonstrated cultural and military superiority over Chinese for several centuries.

- Chinese want to establish lordship over whites, but success from a sort of colonial and racial inferiority complex w.r.to whites. They are in a sort of love - hate -
jealousy relationship with them.

- Chinese consider blacks to be physically strong brutes but not anywhere comparable to whites or yellow races in terms of business and academic competemcies.

- They consider browns as inferior to yellow races nd whites but "better" than blacks. Within browns they get confused between middle East and india.

-they concede onky Jews as a race that is intellectually more superior and are enamored of them.

One Chinese friend, a very well educated person who had lived in US for a long time offered me a proof of the evolutionary superiority of Chinese race compared to whites, browns or blacks. His logic was that lack of body hair indicates higher state of evolution and yellow races have the least body hair!

Their racial view isnt just a smug attitude which they hide under political correctness. Their entire thought process including strategic worldview and business plans are based on their racial world view.

China does not believe India is their potential competitor to the level we think. They consider only US as the country standing between them and realization of their middle kingdom dreams. Everybody else is just a pin prick to be managed.

That explains their anger and frustration when they don't see a supplicant response from India. I am sure they are smarting inside to "teach india a lesson".

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 14 Jul 2017 16:44

Have experienced it myself, underestimating any opponent is the biggest mistake anyone can make. Let them marinate in their ideas and feelings. Because when the time comes, nothing of it matters.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Jul 2017 16:52

schinnas wrote:Having managed and worked with several Chinese from all parts of China for over a decade, and indulging in conversations with them to have their perspectives, i fully agree with SSridharji and TKiran.

Chinese society thinking hasn't evolved from feudalistic, imperialistic and racial superiority mindset prevalent in the 19th century. Only the evolution of feminist thought is the progressive positive development in the past 70 or 80 years of Chinese mindset.

- Chinese consider themselves as the top of Asian (yellow) races. They are unable to forgive and forget Japanese because they demonstrated cultural and military superiority over Chinese for several centuries.

- Chinese want to establish lordship over whites, but success from a sort of colonial and racial inferiority complex w.r.to whites. They are in a sort of love - hate -
jealousy relationship with them.

- Chinese consider blacks to be physically strong brutes but not anywhere comparable to whites or yellow races in terms of business and academic competemcies.

- They consider browns as inferior to yellow races nd whites but "better" than blacks. Within browns they get confused between middle East and india.

-they concede onky Jews as a race that is intellectually more superior and are enamored of them.

One Chinese friend, a very well educated person who had lived in US for a long time offered me a proof of the evolutionary superiority of Chinese race compared to whites, browns or blacks. His logic was that lack of body hair indicates higher state of evolution and yellow races have the least body hair!

Their racial view isnt just a smug attitude which they hide under political correctness. Their entire thought process including strategic worldview and business plans are based on their racial world view.

China does not believe India is their potential competitor to the level we think. They consider only US as the country standing between them and realization of their middle kingdom dreams. Everybody else is just a pin prick to be managed.

That explains their anger and frustration when they don't see a supplicant response from India. I am sure they are smarting inside to "teach india a lesson".

and what about the rumour that certain female chinese parts are horizontally aligned??

pattnayak · Post by **pattnayak** » 14 Jul 2017 17:00

Strangely enough I have experienced that myself too. I did my bachelors in US in a pretty good and big school. We had many people from many countries in the international student community. Chinese were the highest with Indians being second with a good number of Korean, Iranian, German, Brazilian and Turkish students.

Every other group including us Indians of all hues interacted and partied with other groups. But never the Chinese. And other groups also never partied with the Chinese. Not even the taller than mountains deeper than ocean friend Pakistanis. We got to know about cultural events of other countries so often but there was always lack of information from the Chinese student community about their events. Would only meet them or taste their food at common International day events.

I didn't understand it then and still don't understand it. I used to think we Indians can be insular, with the dominant group talking in native tongue leaving the others out of the loop. But we all still interacted. Not the case for Chinese students at my university at least.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jul 2017 17:09

TKiran wrote:Han get their spines soaked with sweat when I argue that India is a challenger. They just can't digest.

TK, ordinary Han folks may not yet recognize the Indian challenge because the CPC (or the Politburo, more particularly) has not yet decided to indoctrinate them with the 'new threat'. For the sake of public consumption, the CPC continues to dismiss India as inconsequential. The Chinese may even hope that such a position demoralizes India. That's why it continues to equate India with Pakistan (yesterday's FO briefing, for example, where the Chinese spokesman said "India and Pakistan are two important nations of South Asia") But, common sense demands that the Chinese leadership are well aware of who the future threat is. Of course, tactically, they have to tackle the US, protect the First Island Chain from being breached, develop capability to take the war into Western Pacific, subdue Japan, establish Indo-China Sea as its lake, kill any emerging alliance against it etc. But, make no mistake, the Leadership is not shutting its eyes to the looming Indian threat.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 14 Jul 2017 17:24

India is the only country amongst PRC's 23 odd neighbours with an offensive posture on it's land borders.

This fact will be weighing in on PRC planners for some time. However priority being given to Naval forces modernisation over land forces indicates they see sanitising of their eastern seaboard as higher priority than fighting India for a buffer zone (Tibet). We will have to see if this changes over time, if it does it means they acknowledge India as a looming threat.

As of now though....doubtful!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2017 17:27

It's not as if we are scared of fighting the Chinese alone.As always said,we'll have to do the fighting when the balloon goes up ourselves.However,the more moral,diplomatic and intel/mil support we get from the ROW the better.It will greatly aid us in defeating the Chinese mil intentions.Little Vietnam did it alone,with scarce support,so too can we. The problem is that China has a joker in its Pak,Pak.A two-front war,with action in the IOR too will stretch India's mil resources enormously.Pak need to be "silenced" should a spat with China happen.In fact,our naval Malabar exercises going on right now ,whatever spin you put on it,are an informal anti-China naval exercise focussing on ASW.

China is downsizing its army,expanding its navy-official news.It realises that every great empire possessed a v.powerful navy that sailed the world's oceans,dominating them.The recent Chinese naval fleet exercising in the Meditt. indicates its global ambitions.The GOI must dramatically expand the IN combatwise in an all-round expansion of the fleet,plugging the gaps that exist in certain areas like subs,ASW helos,LRMP aircraft,etc. But we need to also keep China guessing.The more we must militarily exercise with nations suspicious of Chinese intentions,the better.The Nazis were not stopped by just Britain alone.They needed in the main Russia and the US,plus millions of Indian troops not just in WW2 but also WW! !
IT is only when China realise that India cannot be defeated on the ground or at sea,or by nuclear strike,will they play ball with India.AS long as their bloated feeling of superiority exists,they will advance like soldier ants regardless of any nations' protesttations.THey will stop only when they meet steel and fire.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2017 17:32

cheen acting khanish sending ALCM armed bombers out ...

Taipei, July 13 (CNA) China's air force on Thursday sent formations of Xian H-6 strategic bombers near Taiwan's air defense identification zone (ADIZ) and the Miyako Strait south of Japan's Okinawa as part of a long-range drill, Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense said that day.

The drill was part of a training session in the Western Pacific that also includes drills by a range of fighter aircraft, according to the ministry.

A group of H-6 bombers under the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Eastern Theater Command flew just outside Taiwan's ADIZ, while the other passed over the Bashi Channel and the Miyako Strait, a strategic entryway into the Western Pacific between the islands of Miyako and Okinawa, the ministry said, adding that it was closely following the movements.

(By Claudia Liu and Evelyn Kao)
ENDITEM/J

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 14 Jul 2017 17:34

India reacting to their buildup by building a huge navy would be playing into their and American hands. Tibet is their underbelly we need exploit it by raising 2 MSC.

Our enemies are next door to us, not across seven seas like America.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 14 Jul 2017 17:51

g.sarkar wrote:We held on to Siachen all these years, we can do that here also. As each month and each year is passing, we are getting stronger, militarily and economically. China will not attack unless they are 100% sure of complete victory, as otherwise the loss of face will be terrible. Remember China-Vietnam war? Any war is full of uncertainties and this is not 1962. We have to prepare our soldiers and buy ammunition and equipment, and this will avert war on the long run.

Exactly, we should reinforce our position with defensive and offensive equipment, and be ready to hold our positions permanently. If the PLA tries anything, we should be ready to ensure it is a huge failure. The longer we hold our positions, the more they lose face.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Jul 2017 18:00

schinnas wrote:Having managed and worked with several Chinese from all parts of China for over a decade, and indulging in conversations with them to have their perspectives, i fully agree with SSridharji and TKiran.

Chinese society thinking hasn't evolved from feudalistic, imperialistic and racial superiority mindset prevalent in the 19th century. Only the evolution of feminist thought is the progressive positive development in the past 70 or 80 years of Chinese mindset.

- Chinese consider themselves as the top of Asian (yellow) races. They are unable to forgive and forget Japanese because they demonstrated cultural and military superiority over Chinese for several centuries.

- Chinese want to establish lordship over whites, but success from a sort of colonial and racial inferiority complex w.r.to whites. They are in a sort of love - hate -
jealousy relationship with them.

- Chinese consider blacks to be physically strong brutes but not anywhere comparable to whites or yellow races in terms of business and academic competemcies.

- They consider browns as inferior to yellow races nd whites but "better" than blacks. Within browns they get confused between middle East and india.

-they concede onky Jews as a race that is intellectually more superior and are enamored of them.

One Chinese friend, a very well educated person who had lived in US for a long time offered me a proof of the evolutionary superiority of Chinese race compared to whites, browns or blacks. His logic was that lack of body hair indicates higher state of evolution and yellow races have the least body hair!

Their racial view isnt just a smug attitude which they hide under political correctness. Their entire thought process including strategic worldview and business plans are based on their racial world view.

China does not believe India is their potential competitor to the level we think. They consider only US as the country standing between them and realization of their middle kingdom dreams. Everybody else is just a pin prick to be managed.

That explains their anger and frustration when they don't see a supplicant response from India. I am sure they are smarting inside to "teach india a lesson".

WTF. There are many tribes in Africa and Latin America with no body hairs at all. It has nothing to do with stages/ level of evolution.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 14 Jul 2017 18:17

^^of course... it is just a way for people to assert superiority. Humans will always find a way. Skin colour, beard growth thickness, body hair, eye colour, economic wealth by country, by per capita, you name it. Point is to know what you have, defend it while still thriving, and ensure that anyone who attacks gets a proper bollocking, or if down is the only way left to go, take the whole thing down with you, and make sure everyone knows it.

Other than that, just be a nice, friendly, non-violent, vegetarian, SDRE, who has no problems with anyone's differences.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 18:19

shiv wrote:
pankajs wrote:That is why even a casual reference to US presence in Ladakh, at the junction of India, China and POK will work like nothing else. The Chinese will have nightmares imagining US looking at its activities in and around both Tibet, xinJiang and POK.

Added later: If that is a step too far .. and it is .. lets start with holding regular exercise with US troops in Ladakh.
pankajs - the assumption in your post is that the Chinese are not scared enough of India. Perhaps this is your assumption because it's definitely not mine

But there is a problem in thinking like this
1. If India needs moral support by inviting the US - then China will understand instantly that they have nothing to worry and that it is India that is worried and all they have to do is sit tight. The US will clear out one day and they can kick Indian butt.
2. If you feel the Chinese are "not scared enough" of fighting India but will be "more scared" because of US troops, they are hardly going to show it. They will act more belligerent because it will not be in their interest to appear weak. Are we then going to attack them feeling more confident because there are US troops on our soil?

With respect - the idea is a bad one. This is not about you personally but all too often I see people on this forum speaking of how we should collaborate with Israelis or USA whenever there is a security threat. This indicates anxiety on the part of the person who suggests it. (The media too often publish articles expressing anxiety about perceived Indian weakness) Anxiety is allowed but bad solutions should not be entertained. We have to fight our battles ourselves. We are alone in this as a nation and if we as individuals are not ready to face the threat ourselves the least we can do is to trust our armed forces and not claim that a US presence will make China more scared

One of the most important things about strength is not to appear and act weak. We can have all the forces and support we want but if we shiver in our dhotis all adversaries will have a laugh.

Shiv saar let me first say that your second level thought experiment is spot on and I did not go as far as you went with the logic.

I have always maintained on this forum that India will have to do its own fighting and we cannot expect others to come to our rescue.

The post that you have quoted needs to be read with my previous two post. My basic point was that if we going to needle China then inviting US Army for an exercise in Ladhak would serve quite well and it seems we did invite them once in 2003. This is not about stationing US troops in India but about raising the anxiety levels just as the Malabar/IOR exercise is doing in China.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 14 Jul 2017 18:20

SSridhar wrote: TK, ordinary Han folks may not yet recognize the Indian challenge because the CPC (or the Politburo, more particularly) has not yet decided to indoctrinate them with the 'new threat'. For the sake of public consumption, the CPC continues to dismiss India as inconsequential. The Chinese may even hope that such a position demoralizes India. That's why it continues to equate India with Pakistan (yesterday's FO briefing, for example, where the Chinese spokesman said "India and Pakistan are two important nations of South Asia") But, common sense demands that the Chinese leadership are well aware of who the future threat is. Of course, tactically, they have to tackle the US, protect the First Island Chain from being breached, develop capability to take the war into Western Pacific, subdue Japan, establish Indo-China Sea as its lake, kill any emerging alliance against it etc. But, make no mistake, the Leadership is not shutting its eyes to the looming Indian threat.

SS sir, regarding the bolded part, I think they started believing their own propaganda, as almost half of the adults in Han China are party guys, and almost all of them have no idea about the existence of a country called India.

Due to cognitive dissonance, they may start some action against IA within first few hours of election of emporer Eleven, and that is my gut feeling.

OK let's wait and see...

Right now there is huge pressure on ISI by Hans to do something more adacious than 26/11...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 18:35

Paul wrote:India reacting to their buildup by building a huge navy would be playing into their and American hands. Tibet is their underbelly we need exploit it by raising 2 MSC.

Our enemies are next door to us, not across seven seas like America.

Our land borders are at a standstill with China where as the seas are still being contested. So either we let the Chinese dominate the IOR without any challenge or be prepared to contest every inch of that water body. They already have a base in Djibouti and Gwadar is next. It is almost certain that Sri Lanka will yield Hambantota as a base to China sooner or later. If these bases go unchallenged India will find it supply of Oil and Gas chocked in the event of a war.

To ensure Indian shipping freedom of navitation in the IOR region we will need to build a Navy that will challenge the Chinese navy and their bases in the IOR region.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jul 2017 18:56

SSridhar wrote:
TKiran wrote:Han get their spines soaked with sweat when I argue that India is a challenger. They just can't digest.
TK, ordinary Han folks may not yet recognize the Indian challenge because the CPC (or the Politburo, more particularly) has not yet decided to indoctrinate them with the 'new threat'. For the sake of public consumption, the CPC continues to dismiss India as inconsequential. The Chinese may even hope that such a position demoralizes India. That's why it continues to equate India with Pakistan (yesterday's FO briefing, for example, where the Chinese spokesman said "India and Pakistan are two important nations of South Asia") But, common sense demands that the Chinese leadership are well aware of who the future threat is. Of course, tactically, they have to tackle the US, protect the First Island Chain from being breached, develop capability to take the war into Western Pacific, subdue Japan, establish Indo-China Sea as its lake, kill any emerging alliance against it etc. But, make no mistake, the Leadership is not shutting its eyes to the looming Indian threat.

The Chinese are right now focused on their primary/immediate threat and that is the US. If they can push US back or show them up as unreliable then the whole of East Asia will fall into their lap. Then it will be time enough to focus on India. Till then they expect the Bakis to keep us bogged down.

There is a saying in China that roughly translates to "One mountain cannot contain two tigers."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8 ... C%E8%99%8E

The Chinese leaders are well aware that they will have to subdue India sooner or later to achieve their cherished goal of *Middle Kingdom*. India is just too big to ignore. Even if India has only the best intentions towards China the fact that it exists means that there is another pole culturally, society wise, politically and militarily. That alone will ensure that China never comes to dominate Asia and the world. from Chinese pov India will have to be dealt with. There is no escaping.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 14 Jul 2017 19:16

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017071410 ... r-dispute/

Bhutan Puts Relations With China Ahead of India's Interests - Expert
© AFP 2017/ DIPTENDU DUTTA
Asia & Pacific
15:30 14.07.2017Get short URL
134131
As China questions India's right to interfere on behalf of Bhutan in the ongoing border standoff in the Doklam area, a former diplomat and security expert reveals that there are voices within Bhutan which seek to resolve the dispute with China once and for all without caring for New Delhi’s interests.

Indian army soldiers. (File)
© AFP 2017/ STRINGER
India Revives Intel Wing to Keep Tabs on Chinese Activity in Nepal, Bhutan
Earlier, Chinese news agency Xinhua said that India seeks to obstruct border negotiations between China and Bhutan in the Doklam area and is not entitled to make claims on behalf of Bhutan.

"India has no right to interfere in China-Bhutan boundary issues, nor is it entitled to make territorial claims on behalf of Bhutan. India's current actions have not only encroached on China's territorial sovereignty, but also impaired the independence of Bhutan, one of the world's smallest countries, which is closely allied with India," the Xinhua commentary said.

Both New Delhi and Bhutan have issued official statements to counter the Chinese narrative on the standoff, essentially invoking similar arguments.

The Royal Government of Bhutan’s statement issued on June 29, said the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory was a direct violation of written agreements of 1988 and 1998 and affects the ongoing demarcation process between the two countries.

It should be noted that Bhutan held 24 rounds of talks on the issue with China so far.

Meanwhile, India’s Ministry of External Affairs also issued a press release on June 30, noting that in 2012 Beijing and New Delhi agreed that the tri-junction boundary points between India, China and third countries (in this case, Bhutan) will be finalized in consultation with the concerned countries.

India and Bhutan have maintained historically strong relations. Bhutan co-operates closely with India in determining its foreign policy, and the Indian Army is involved in the training of its armed forces.

"People in Bhutan think that India has for too long prevented their country from normalizing diplomatic ties and negotiating a border settlement with China. Indian apprehension is that any boundary deal between Thimpu and Beijing will not only impact Indian security but also impinge on its own negotiating position with China on the boundary issue. Bhutan would prefer maintaining friendly and equidistant ties with both India and China," P. Stobdan, a former Indian ambassador and senior fellow at the New Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, told Sputnik.

China, which does not have formal diplomatic ties with Bhutan, has denied claims that it has violated any treaties. Beijing seeks to claim 495 square kilometers in eastern Bhutan and 286 square km in the western sector, which includes the Doklam Plateau and even offered to swap territory to gain access to the Doklam Plateau.

"We must note that Bhutanese position has been changing in a subtle way, especially the manner in which their boundary negotiation with China was proceeding without the knowledge of India. Bhutanese perceptions are getting visibly louder on social media and the growing aspirations of the people suggest that Bhutan’s ability to withstand pressures from both China and India has become paramount. The issue especially its ties with India will reverberate in the next election in Bhutan in October 2018," Stobdan added.