Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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chetak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by chetak »

Inder Sharma wrote:I believe that the single child China is overestimating its ability to absorb the cost of war.

When bodybags of PLA men begin to arrive; per soldier there would 4 distraught grandparents and two devastated parents who would be left without progeny.

In such a scenario, Xi may have to worry more about Chinese mothers. So if we can run a successful psyops in the mind of Chinese mothers about the threat to her son, we have deterred Xi.

Our stance at the very least should be to deliver unacceptable number of bodybags to the PLA (by conventional means) if they play wonky.
isn't china reputed to have about 30 million excess males which some say that they need to get rid of??

what better way than a war??
kapilrdave
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by kapilrdave »

Just blocking underinvoiceing will deal a great blow to the cheap imports. How to do it is an another matter though.
rsingh
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

Economic sanctions are commercial and financial penalties applied by one or more countries against a targeted country, group, or individual. [1] Economic sanctions may include various forms of trade barriers, tariffs, and restrictions on financial transactions.[2] Economic sanctions are not necessarily imposed because of economic circumstances—they may also be imposed for a variety of political, military, and social issues. Economic sanctions can be used for achieving domestic and international purposes

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sanctions

WTO has a procedure for that. China is dumping,coercing,bribing and arm twisting smaller countries . Plenty of reasons. If there is will....
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/di ... 10p1_e.htm
Last edited by rsingh on 21 Jul 2017 18:01, edited 2 times in total.
Iyersan
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

Military conflicts to escalate if India refuses to withdraw troops
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057440.shtml

Addressing the ongoing border face-off between China and India, Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj told her country's parliament on Thursday that "all countries are in India's support," and said India is alert to the need to protect its security near "the border where the boundaries of China, India and Bhutan meet," Indian media reported Thursday.

She was lying to the parliament. First, India's invasion of Chinese territory is a plain fact. New Delhi's impetuous action stuns the international community. No other country will support India's aggression. Second, India's military strength is far behind that of China. If the conflict between China and India escalates to the intensity where their row has to be resolved through military means, India will surely lose.

India should abandon the fantasy of a long-term standoff at Doklam. China will by no means agree to the withdrawal of troops from both sides in order for talks to be held. Doklam is Chinese territory. The withdrawal of Indian troops must be a precondition for talks and China will not compromise on this stance.

We notice that India's stance has recently changed subtly and started to stress that Doklam is "a tri-junction area of China, India and Bhutan" and attempts to call for "both sides to withdraw troops" to allow for talks. These changes show New Delhi's guilty conscience.

China has reiterated its stance on the issue and shown the utmost tolerance and patience toward India. If Indian troops continue trespassing into China's territory, what Beijing may do next is to get prepared for a military confrontation against New Delhi and resolve the conflict through non-diplomatic means.

India should have heard about the news that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has deployed troops near the China-India border and transported materials and supplies to the area. The PLA is also reportedly conducting drills for mountain operations. These are certainly not for show. Now that the PLA has moved in on the China-India border, they will definitely not call back troops unless they recover the Chinese territory.

China cannot afford to "lose an inch" of territory. This is the sacred wish and request of the Chinese people. The Chinese government will not breach the fundamental will of the people and the PLA will not let the Chinese people down.

If New Delhi remains stubborn, India should get prepared for all possibilities from a potentially grave escalation of tension in the future.

The PLA's mobility and logistics capability cannot be matched by that of its Indian counterpart. PLA troops may appear in any area beyond the line of actual control that was previously controlled by India. The China-India border area may become a stage where China showcases the achievement of its long-term military development and reforms.  

The way some Indians compare China's military strength with that of India at the border is extremely comical. They bragged that India has more troops in the area but they fail to realize that the PLA's strong capability to deploy troops can reverse the balance of power at the border within a day. The PLA's long-range combat capability can also allow its troops in remote area to provide fire support to troops at the border. China's military spending is four times that of India where its GDP volume is five times that of India. The great gap will shape the actual pattern of power balance between the two countries at the border.

Back in 1962, India underestimated China's resolution to safeguard its territory. We hope India won't repeat this mistake.

India should by no means count on support from the US and Japan because their support is illusory. If India fancies the idea that it has a strategic card to play in the Indian Ocean, it could not be even more naïve. China does hold a lot of cards and can hit India's Achilles' heel, but India has no leverage at all to have a strategic showdown with China.

Lastly, we must say that the later India withdraws troops, the greater the risk that it will face from a military counteraction and the more clout it will lose politically. China's military pressure on India will increase every day and India will end up losing face and be totally disgraced.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

SSridhar wrote:Sikkim standoff should not threaten RCEP deal: Chinese media - PTI
"If India encourages the border tensions to thwart the free trade negotiations, China will fight back and spare no effort to safeguard its territorial sovereignty, which cannot be traded in any case," it said.
{Since China usually conducts its foreign policy through its state-controlled media and think-tanks, we have to assume that this comes from their government. As usual, the Chinese do not see the absurdity of what they say ! Here is the usual 'frothing' Global Times saying that if India thwarts trade negotiations, then China will 'rake up' sovereignty ! Absurdly linking the two. Then it contradicts itself. If 'sovereignty cannot be traded at any cost', then why link it up with trade negotiations? These threats will work with Philippines, but not with India. That being said, China is trying to use the stand-off to get 'concessions' in the RCEP negotiations. This might have been another reason for the Doka La crisis, in the long list of such reasons.}
Just a thought ... It might just be the reverse.

Who has a positive trade balance? China.
Who has an advantage in tradable goods? China.
Who has *extreme* surplus capacity that is looking for a market? China.
Who is pushing *more* for a regional trade arrangement? China. It wants to lock up the region in its embrace before the US *deep state/establishment* wakes up and muscles its way past TrumpZee.

So now, Who has most to loose if the talks breakdown? China

It might just be.. just be an Indian tactics to confront China at Doka La with the implied threat that it has the power to wreak China's *favored* trade setup.
Last edited by pankajs on 21 Jul 2017 18:21, edited 1 time in total.
Philip
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

Here's a counter-strategy for India and the IN,to deply IN assets in the Indo-China SEa and needle China the same way it has been doing wiht us in the nountains.The author,a former naval officer,says that we "can't keep China out of the IOR and ":sea-denial" may be difficult,facing local objections.However,just "showing the flag"in the Indo-China Sea does NOT resolve the issue of Chinese subs and warships operating offensively in the IOR,using its bases at Gwadar,etc.and interfering with India's maritime trade,etc. It is very strenuously wooing Burma and Suu Kyi,who has excellent relations with India.Are we allowing another friend to slip out of our influence here too?

India must pursue a strategy of "tous azimuts",as enunciated by the French Gen.Charles Ailleret in 1967 and later espoused by Gen,De Gaulle.In the French context,it envisioned a large number of megaton ICBMs with a world-wide range and increased dev./numbers of SSBNs, as one had to be "prepared for attack not from anyone in particular,but aimed at all points of the compass" We have to therefore proceed on the assumption that in the event of a conflict with China-Pak,domination of the IOR is absolutely vital and leveraging the landmass of India (and island territories) as an unsinkable carrier,from where LRMPs can operate equipped with ASW and anti-ship LR missiles to detect and destroy any surface and UW PLAN/PN assets. Furthermore,the A&N islands must also serve as a springboard for the IN to operate in the Indo-China Sea,also using base/support naval and air facilities in the littoral countries of the ICS also threatened by China. This latter part is what the author of the article below espouses.Therefore within the IOR we have to exercise both sea control AND sea denial,and without,in the waters of the Asia-Pacific,disrupt and destroy the enemy wherever he is found,using large numbers of nuclear and AIP subs in particular,along with LR missiles launched from LRMP/strike aircraft and warships."Attack being the best form of defence".

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/YLTJRie ... egion.html
Malabar naval exercise: Powerplay in the Indo-Pacific region
Maritime power projection, and not sea denial, is the answer to China’s creeping assertiveness in South Asia
Abhijit Singh
The Malabar naval exercises in the Bay of Bengal last week is seen by many as a maritime response to China’s aggression in Dokalam. Photo: PTI

The “Malabar” naval exercises in the Bay of Bengal came to an end earlier this week with a close formation drill involving Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the US flat-top Nimitz, and Japan’s new helicopter carrier, the JS Izumo. The expansive scope and complexity of the engagement led many to portray Malabar 2017 as a maritime response to China’s aggression in Dokalam where the Indian Army and People’s Liberation Army troops remain locked in a tense stalemate.

Indeed, with over 20 ships, including two submarines and over 100 aircraft and helicopters involved in complex manoeuvres, the strategic messaging to China seemed more than clear. Notably, Indian commentators cast Malabar as a strategic precursor to a more proactive sea-denial strategy aimed at challenging People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) ships and submarines in the Indian Ocean.

MORE FROM LIVEMINT »
Pakistan’s proxy war, China’s military drill test Indian Army on two fronts

In the run-up to Malabar, the media had reported a “surge” in Chinese naval presence in the subcontinental littorals. PLAN units prowling India’s near-seas reportedly included the Luyang III class destroyers, hydrographic research vessels, and an intelligence-gathering ship, Haiwingxing, presumably to keep track of naval ships taking part in the trilateral exercises. But Indian analysts seemed more distressed by the reported presence of a Chinese conventional submarine in the Indian seas, confirmed by the docking of the Chongmingdao, a submarine support vessel, in Karachi last month.

For many Indian observers, the emphasis on anti-submarine warfare (ASW) exercises in Malabar is a sign of India’s growing willingness to leverage its maritime partnerships in Asia to counter PLAN operations in the Indian Ocean. Not surprisingly, much of the commentary in the Indian media highlighted exercises involving P-8I and P-8A reconnaissance aircraft, MiG-29K fighters and Japanese ASW helicopters, lending credence to accounts that an Indian “sea-denial” strategy was at work in the Bay of Bengal.

Yet, there is something essentially flawed about the idea that Indian naval power can prevent Chinese warships and submarines from accessing India’s near-seas. Modern-day trading nations regard the oceans as a shared global common, with equal opportunity rights for all user states. Consequently, unless a sea-space is a site of overlapping claims (as in the case of the South China Sea) or a contested enclave in a geopolitically troubled spot (as the Persian Gulf), no coastal state ever actively denies another the use of the high seas.

This balance only changes during war, when navies seek to block adversaries from entering critical sea spaces in the contested littorals. During peace-time operations, however, maritime forces enjoy assured access to the seas that lie beyond national territorial waters (even if a coastal state insists on prior notification).

Given Beijing’s key role in the politics and geoeconomics of the Indian Ocean region, a peacetime plan to deny its warships entry into India’s surrounding seas is unlikely to succeed. With the PLAN expanding its diplomatic engagements along the Indian Ocean rim, many regional states have been welcoming of Beijing’s maritime initiatives and investments in the Indian Ocean. India’s plans to constrain Chinese naval power in South Asia are bound to meet with regional opposition. *(This is where our diplomacy has often failed us in not anticipating Chinese ventures and ignoring offers amde to us first by littoral countries)

New Delhi, in fact, might do well to take a leaf out of Beijing’s maritime playbook by leveraging naval operations for geopolitical purposes. In recent years, the PLAN has sought to project power in the Indian Ocean region through a constant naval presence in India’s near-seas. By refusing to accept the Indian Ocean as an Indian backwater, it has made successful inroads into India’s geopolitical sphere of influence. India too must now resort to a strategy of counter-power projection by expanding the scope of its naval deployments in the South China Sea, long considered a Chinese preserve.

Raising the tempo of Indian naval operations in South-East Asia does not mean challenging China’s naval might in the Western Pacific. By gradually expanding security presence along the critical sea lanes of the Western Pacific, the Indian Navy must plan to use the South China Sea’s geopolitically sensitive spaces for the strategic power projection.

Such a strategy is bound to have a deterrent effect on China’s naval posture in the Indian Ocean region. Beijing’s constraints in opposing Indian maritime presence in the Western Pacific are similar to New Delhi’s limitations in the Indian Ocean, where the Indian Navy has struggled to offer push-back to China.

What’s different is that Beijing’s political and territorial ambitions in the South China Sea make it far more sensitive to naval forays by unfriendly states. After an arbitral tribunal’s ruling in July last year invalidated many of China’s historical rights within the nine-dash line, Beijing has been extremely cagey about perceived challenges to its authority in the waters of the South China Sea.

China’s vulnerability in its near-seas must be taken advantage of by India. To challenge PLAN incursions into the Indian Ocean, the Indian Navy must plan for counter-presence in China’s near-seas, where Beijing cannot prove a territorial infringement, and yet feel the pinch of a perceived violation of its political sphere of influence.

India’s maritime planners know well that a nuanced high-seas presence in the Western Pacific is unlikely to ever cross the threshold of provocation which could lead to full-fledged conflict with China. Nagging Indian naval presence in the South China Sea is better suited to signal Indian resolve than any attempt to deny PLAN assets access into maritime South Asia.

Abhijit Singh is head of the maritime policy initiative at the Observer Research Foundation and a former naval officer.

First Published: Thu, Jul 20 2017.
PS:Repeated ad nauseum.Send Dr.SS forthwith to Taipei!

Items for discussion:
1.Immediate establishment of a large "Indian Trade and Cultural Centre",which would act as a de-facto embassy. Yaiwan to be allowed the same in Delhi.

2.Indo-Taiwan defence cooperation.Sale of Indian weapon systems to Taiwan,including transfer of Indian developed tactical missiles,warships and sub technology for Taiwan's indigenous sub programme. We could pass on much of the U-209 tech/design as the Germans,without our permission,sold them to the racist S.African regime decades ago!

3.Immediate joint intel cooperation.Chinese speaking Taiwanese intel/cyber experts operating in India ,monitoring Chinese SIGINT/COMINT ,assisting our NTRO,would be invaluable intercepting,monitoring and decoding Chinese commns.,esp in the Tibetan theatre and ICS/IOR. Such assistance would be invaluable as we do not possess enough Chinese speaking human resources both in the MEA and MOD/services/intle agencies.

4.Expanded trade with Taiwan,esp. in IC tech/production,increased Taiwanese investment in India,just as we're offering Israel.

5.Direct flights to Taiwan from India,or via ASEAN nations such as Vietnam. Increased two-way tourism.
Last edited by Philip on 21 Jul 2017 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Politicking, opportunistic, self aggrandizing, backstabbing Chinese. India will always be a winner in spirit, no matter what happens. And one hopes of course, a winner on the battlefield if it comes to that.
pankajs
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

GOI has been pitch perfect till date in dealing with the noise from across the border. Flapping in the wind is not going to resolve our border issues.

The Chinese have suddenly realized that their cherished trade agreement might be nixed by India. How convenient! While the Chinese are hollering at the top of their voice GOI has been going on with steps that it needs to take in silence except a comment here a comment there.
Philip
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

Nix it!Nix it! Nix it! Immediately!

PS:The US has just banned Americans from visiting NoKo,we too should do the same,preventing Indians from visiting China ,imposing a "China-visit tax of 50K",but advising them to visit Taiwan instead.Indian businesses must also close shop in China,deadline to be given.Chinese nationals wanting to visit India to pay USD $10,000 as visa fees and hotels to charge twice the rack rate (GOI tax).
Last edited by Philip on 21 Jul 2017 18:41, edited 1 time in total.
pankajs
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

Difficult to say what is the true story of Doka La but here is another.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 324045.ece
How a backup road to new Chinese watchtower may have triggered Doklam standoff
China’s decision to complete the construction of a road to a watchtower in the Doklam area, which it had built in 2014, may have triggered the current standoff with India in the Sikkim section of the China-India border, says a widely-read Chinese blog.

A write-up in the WeChat blog “International Military Focus”, which appeared on July 14, points out that China, marginalising Bhutanese military presence, began to gradually exercise physical control over the Doklam area only after 2007.

The posting is titled, “Important Inside story: How many people know the truth about Doklam conflict?” WeChat is a popular Chinese instant messaging platform with an estimated 938 million users.

“Although Doklam has always been part of China, its total control of the area, according to some information, began only after 2007. Before that it was controlled by Bhutan. And this is the reality,” says the post.

The article then explains that though Doklam legally belonged to China, following the 1890 convention between Britain and China, the area was generally inaccessible. “It was like a no man’s land, where China did not exercise actual control. Later on Bhutan set up watchtowers in the Doklam area and had the actual control.”

The blog says that in 2007, China destroyed two seasonal watch towers set up by Bhutan. Seven years later, it set up the Zhecaochang watchtower, following two years of construction, on the base of the two destroyed Bhutanese watch towers.

Explaining the timing of the on-going standoff, the blog says “this time the very last section of road connecting to Zhecaochang watchtower was supposed to be finished.”

Besides, the possible destruction of two Indian watchtowers by China may have fueled New Delhi’s ire. “In combination with previous reports, it is possible that India had two watchtowers that were very close to the road. The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) destroyed these two watchtowers in order to achieve the eventual completion of the road. That is why India became really unhappy.”

The blog also signals that without opening a second front against India during the 1965 Indo-Pak war, China did impose pressure on New Delhi along the China-India frontier, including the Doklam area.

“In 1965, in order to support Pakistan, China issued several official notifications; issued red lines to India, asking it to retreat from fortifications works in the China-Sikkim section, including the mountain area, where the conflict is taking place this time.”

Referring to the special ties between Bhutan and India, which proved critical in forcing a face-off, the article traces the extraordinary bonding between the two neighbours to Dalai Lama’s hurried exit from Tibet to India. “In the 1950s, when Tibet revolted and the Dalai Lama escaped into Bhutan, there were 6400 Tibetan monks that followed him. Many of them became the senior officials and political figures in Bhutan. The main pressure that Bhutan should accept these Tibetan monks comes from Indian authorities. This brought negative influence, to the relationship between China and Bhutan. In 1959, the border trade closed off, and the commercial trade that has a long history was suspended.”

Firmly opposed to a war with India, which it acknowledges is militarily well prepared in the area, the candid write-up contrasts the current situation to the buildup of 1962 war, which it surprisingly states took “more than 10 years” to prepare.

Further it asserts that, “India does not possess the ability to invade our territory. India’s military move could be (based on) anger (or) triggered by jealousy, but (it) does not pose a real threat.”
yensoy
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by yensoy »

Iyersan wrote:Military conflicts to escalate if India refuses to withdraw troops
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057440.shtml
...
She was lying to the parliament. First, India's invasion of Chinese territory is a plain fact. New Delhi's impetuous action stuns the international community. No other country will support India's aggression. Second, India's military strength is far behind that of China. If the conflict between China and India escalates to the intensity where their row has to be resolved through military means, India will surely lose.
...
The way some Indians compare China's military strength with that of India at the border is extremely comical. They bragged that India has more troops in the area but they fail to realize that the PLA's strong capability to deploy troops can reverse the balance of power at the border within a day. The PLA's long-range combat capability can also allow its troops in remote area to provide fire support to troops at the border. China's military spending is four times that of India where its GDP volume is five times that of India. The great gap will shape the actual pattern of power balance between the two countries at the border.
...
Back in 1962, India underestimated China's resolution to safeguard its territory. We hope India won't repeat this mistake.
Idiots. Globaltimes is getting more and more asinine every passing day. Keep up the chest thumping, references to 4x GDP and 1962. We are not fools, we don't have a million person army and billions of dollars worth hardware for a big military parade (as seems to be the case with China). We have spilled blood and continue to spill blood; our last military success was not that long ago in Kargil which showed our resolve when push came to shove. GDP is a number, while China is richer, it is a far more expensive place for most requirements of life, making the GDP difference in effect only around 2:1 or less.

Chinese excel at rhetoric. "She was lying" and "will surely lose" sounds like the article was written by a schoolkid coming to grips with puberty. Analysis, subtlety and nuance don't come when most news borders on propaganda and a clear definition of good and evil.
Last edited by yensoy on 21 Jul 2017 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
pankajs
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

Philip wrote:Nix it!Nix it! Nix it! Immediately!
If I read this correct, GOI will not nix it. Just that countries present at Hyderabad will not be able to reach a consensus and the talks will pushed to the next meet.

We just need to keep rolling this forward but introduce a NEW asinine wrinkle at the talks. Deliberately putting up a new asinine things will be read correctly across the board. That will be sufficient message in itself.
chetak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by chetak »

kapilrdave wrote:Just blocking underinvoiceing will deal a great blow to the cheap imports. How to do it is an another matter though.
Its our business community doing this. we can well stop it by kicking a few butts publicly.
chetak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by chetak »

pankajs wrote:
Philip wrote:Nix it!Nix it! Nix it! Immediately!
If I read this correct, GOI will not nix it. Just that countries present at Hyderabad will not be able to reach a consensus and the talks will pushed to the next meet.

We just need to keep rolling this forward but introduce a NEW asinine wrinkle at the talks. Deliberately putting up a new asinine things will be read correctly across the board. That will be sufficient message in itself.
If pakis are attending, don't give/delay the visas to them and block all paki journos with saarc visas
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

pankajs wrote:Difficult to say what is the true story of Doka La but here is another.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 324045.ece
How a backup road to new Chinese watchtower may have triggered Doklam standoff
China’s decision to complete the construction of a road to a watchtower in the Doklam area, which it had built in 2014, may have triggered the current standoff with India in the Sikkim section of the China-India border, says a widely-read Chinese blog.

A write-up in the WeChat blog “International Military Focus”, which appeared on July 14, points out that China, marginalising Bhutanese military presence, began to gradually exercise physical control over the Doklam area only after 2007.

The posting is titled, “Important Inside story: How many people know the truth about Doklam conflict?” WeChat is a popular Chinese instant messaging platform with an estimated 938 million users.

“Although Doklam has always been part of China, its total control of the area, according to some information, began only after 2007. Before that it was controlled by Bhutan. And this is the reality,” says the post.

The article then explains that though Doklam legally belonged to China, following the 1890 convention between Britain and China, the area was generally inaccessible. “It was like a no man’s land, where China did not exercise actual control. Later on Bhutan set up watchtowers in the Doklam area and had the actual control.”

The blog says that in 2007, China destroyed two seasonal watch towers set up by Bhutan. Seven years later, it set up the Zhecaochang watchtower, following two years of construction, on the base of the two destroyed Bhutanese watch towers.

Explaining the timing of the on-going standoff, the blog says “this time the very last section of road connecting to Zhecaochang watchtower was supposed to be finished.”

Besides, the possible destruction of two Indian watchtowers by China may have fueled New Delhi’s ire. “In combination with previous reports, it is possible that India had two watchtowers that were very close to the road. The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) destroyed these two watchtowers in order to achieve the eventual completion of the road. That is why India became really unhappy.”

The blog also signals that without opening a second front against India during the 1965 Indo-Pak war, China did impose pressure on New Delhi along the China-India frontier, including the Doklam area.

“In 1965, in order to support Pakistan, China issued several official notifications; issued red lines to India, asking it to retreat from fortifications works in the China-Sikkim section, including the mountain area, where the conflict is taking place this time.”

Referring to the special ties between Bhutan and India, which proved critical in forcing a face-off, the article traces the extraordinary bonding between the two neighbours to Dalai Lama’s hurried exit from Tibet to India. “In the 1950s, when Tibet revolted and the Dalai Lama escaped into Bhutan, there were 6400 Tibetan monks that followed him. Many of them became the senior officials and political figures in Bhutan. The main pressure that Bhutan should accept these Tibetan monks comes from Indian authorities. This brought negative influence, to the relationship between China and Bhutan. In 1959, the border trade closed off, and the commercial trade that has a long history was suspended.”

Firmly opposed to a war with India, which it acknowledges is militarily well prepared in the area, the candid write-up contrasts the current situation to the buildup of 1962 war, which it surprisingly states took “more than 10 years” to prepare.

Further it asserts that, “India does not possess the ability to invade our territory. India’s military move could be (based on) anger (or) triggered by jealousy, but (it) does not pose a real threat.”
Yaa, road to watchtower. Heavy duty road that can handle heavy tanks........all of this just to go to watch tower. WTF
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

nam wrote:So India's self appointed pal elder brother, China gives nuke to Pakistan.... and it is conspiracy by colonials.
There. Corrected it. This has all the makings of a Pandav/Kaurav war.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Lekhraj »

Under-invoicing is already being clocked. I think, the scale is too much to fully control the same.
anupmisra
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

All this panda-crap (read BS) is coming from chini newspapers and online publications backed by CCP. Nothing direct from comrade eleven and his cohorts. Is GOI now going to negotiate with CCP via their newspapers?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

chetak wrote:twitter
India's diplomacy power play pays off, #Seoul pulls plug on PoK projects http://m.indiatoday.in/story/india-seou ... 07273.html … @rajeev_mp @TarekFatah
I am reading this as an Impact of Daka La stand .. Any Investment in Indian territory under *adverse possession* is ONE bomb away from being blown to smithereens and the investment sunk.

Further,
Apart from South Korea, sources say China has also been putting pressure on Pakistan to legalise the status of PoK and Gilgit-Baltistan through amendments to its constitution before it pours in huge investments in these areas as a part of the CPEC.

China is aware that not only is the region disputed, being claimed by India, but even Pakistani laws do not give it the status of Pakistan's sovereign territory. Chinese pressure has led to the recent move by the Nawaz Sharif government to change the status of Gilgit-Baltistan and declare it the fifth province of the country.

"There must be some technical reason for their pullout," said Sardar Atiq, former Prime Minister of AJK (PoK). "One needs to find out. But as far as foreign investment in 'Azad Kashmir' is concerned, this is not for the first time. We have 2-3 projects going on right now and are accommodating a lot of foreign investment."

Earlier, Asian Development Bank also refused to fund the $14 billion Diamer-Bhasha Dam on the Indus river. This project has been facing problems with financiers since its inception with several sponsors backing out in 2012. The following year, it appeared that the project would take off after the Aga Khan Foundation and ADB agreed to be its financiers. However, subsequently the ADB put its decision to bankroll the project on hold.
Last edited by pankajs on 21 Jul 2017 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

Just like consumers in the west, common Indians have gotten addicted to cheap chini shit. No one wants to give up their plastic toys, fire works and trinkets. That is the bottom line. On top of that there is this fifth column in India that starts to bay at every act of defiance that Indian government shows.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

Going by 4*GDP logic, can have Bakistan please? California alone could buy whole Africa. Duffers, no wonders in Europe all mentally retards are called "Mongols " ( Hans and Mongols are same thing for them).
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by chetak »

pankajs wrote:
chetak wrote:twitter
I am reading this as an Impact of Daka La stand .. Any Investment in Indian territory under *adverse possession* is ONE bomb away from being blown to smithereens and the investment sunk.
this is exactly what the hans wanted to avoid.

India taking a firm stand and also demonstrating that it is more than willing to stand its ground will cool the ardour of many countries to get embroiled in the CPEC, now being seen increasingly as a slowly burgeoning fiasco.

India standing up for bhutan also sends out an unmistakable message to everyone, the hans in particular.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SwamyG »

anupmisra wrote:
nam wrote:So India's self appointed pal elder brother, China gives nuke to Pakistan.... and it is conspiracy by colonials.
There. Corrected it. This has all the makings of a Pandav/Kaurav war.
India would be the elder brother. China used to look up to India - after all they sent scholars to get philosophy and religion from India. India was not only the land of riches, but land of intellectuals.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SwamyG »

If NoKo's Kim is going to be the yard stick of a strong leader, then the yardstick is only gone crazy.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Inder Sharma wrote: When bodybags of PLA men begin to arrive; per soldier there would 4 distraught grandparents and two devastated parents who would be left without progeny.

In such a scenario, Xi may have to worry more about Chinese mothers. So if we can run a successful psyops in the mind of Chinese mothers about the threat to her son, we have deterred Xi.

Depends on composition of PLA soldiers used against India.

If they use Tibetans as canon fodder, then they don't care for distraught families. Plus Tibetans will consider IA as enemy instead.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

If China wanted was serious, it would have pulled the trigger by now. It either means it's all bark and no bite, or they are waiting for opportune moment. We need to assess what could that be.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Marten »

AdityaM wrote:
Inder Sharma wrote: When bodybags of PLA men begin to arrive; per soldier there would 4 distraught grandparents and two devastated parents who would be left without progeny.

In such a scenario, Xi may have to worry more about Chinese mothers. So if we can run a successful psyops in the mind of Chinese mothers about the threat to her son, we have deterred Xi.

Depends on composition of PLA soldiers used against India.

If they use Tibetans as canon fodder, then they don't care for distraught families. Plus Tibetans will consider IA as enemy instead.
Why will Tibetans want to fight India when they can turn around and help give their real Oppressors a bloody nose? Do you really think the locals will not lend a hand to IA whenever we roll into Lhasa?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SwamyG »

Marten wrote:
Arjun wrote: India may like to portray an SDRE culture - but the fact is it is not homogenous unlike China. There are many many martial communities within India that contributed heavily to the might of the British empire as also to the Allied powers being victors in WW1 and WW2 - and of course to our victories since then.
Sir, just a nitpick. The SDRE term itself is a jibe at the sel-proclaimed martially superior Bakis. Why do we believe any martial community in specific has more warrior-like abilities as opposed to the generic SDREs? All of us are martial, which explains why we fight so often.
Add one more nitpick, China is not homogeneous either.

People are far too underestimating China's military strength. Two big factors loom - Himalayas and Indian Ocean. All the rest are maya. These stopped China from coming into India, or prevented India from going into China for centuries.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SwamyG »

Marten wrote:
AdityaM wrote:
Depends on composition of PLA soldiers used against India.

If they use Tibetans as canon fodder, then they don't care for distraught families. Plus Tibetans will consider IA as enemy instead.
Why will Tibetans want to fight India when they can turn around and help give their real Oppressors a bloody nose? Do you really think the locals will not lend a hand to IA whenever we roll into Lhasa?
What? Why? :rotfl: Why would Tibetans consider IA as enemy?

Too much nonsense in this dhaaga onlee.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Marten wrote:
AdityaM wrote:
Depends on composition of PLA soldiers used against India.

If they use Tibetans as canon fodder, then they don't care for distraught families. Plus Tibetans will consider IA as enemy instead.
Why will Tibetans want to fight India when they can turn around and help give their real Oppressors a bloody nose? Do you really think the locals will not lend a hand to IA whenever we roll into Lhasa?
poster RSingh had a few days back pointed out that he heard that many PLA soldiers were recruited from Tibetans.

Plus despite our own feeling of how strongly Tibetans will revolt, and give us the Monopoly free pass to roll into Lhasa, I haven't heard or read similar sentiments of confidence in our abilities of takin the battle to opposing side within the community of Ex-generals who write on social Media.

I know way less that most posters here. But I do read excessive hubris here of how we will send the chinaman back scurrying & crying.

All these years BRF told me that our policy is defend against china & take war into Pak.

Now suddenly this board is all about taking war into china. When did we make this transition in our capabilities, considering that war reserves limit was itself reduced to 10 days, and that too is not fully met.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Marten »

Sir, your comment was about Tibetans hating India. All I did was point out that fallacy. If you visit Kushalnagar and ask the question, you will get a more emphatic and brusque answer. IA or Mod has not talked publicly about rolling into Lhasa primarily because the logistical chains will take a lot of sacrifice to defend and maintain. It does not mean I know any more than you. Just shared a point of view based on my perception.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

SwamyG wrote:
Marten wrote: Why will Tibetans want to fight India when they can turn around and help give their real Oppressors a bloody nose? Do you really think the locals will not lend a hand to IA whenever we roll into Lhasa?
What? Why? :rotfl: Why would Tibetans consider IA as enemy?

Too much nonsense in this dhaaga onlee.

If it is true that Tibetans are part of PLA facing India, (assuming that what rsingh wrote was correct)
Then why will Tibetans join PLA?

If these said Tibetans go home in body bags, what will be the response of locals.
I 'assume' that China's control of media and Information in Tibet is total. And I 'assume' that when china builds a narrative to mold opinion in Tibet, the counter narrative would be absent

Under such circumstances, when public fed on propaganda see their men shot by India, would they feel anger or would they feel warmth?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Marten wrote:Sir, your comment was about Tibetans hating India. All I did was point out that fallacy. If you visit Kushalnagar and ask the question, you will get a more emphatic and brusque answer. IA or Mod has not talked publicly about rolling into Lhasa primarily because the logistical chains will take a lot of sacrifice to defend and maintain. It does not mean I know any more than you. Just shared a point of view based on my perception.

Marten ji, I am not once saying that Tibetans hate us.

My response was to a poster who said china should worry about its public response to bodybags.
I m only saying that knowing the ways of devious china, they may have already planned for propaganda psyops.


Frankly what we miserably need is a greater understanding of what the Tibetans in Tibet feel and are doing. can we depend on them to revolt when the time comes.

The last news of Monk revolt/immolation in Tibet came quite a few years ago.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

AdityaM wrote:
Marten wrote:Sir, your comment was about Tibetans hating India. All I did was point out that fallacy. If you visit Kushalnagar and ask the question, you will get a more emphatic and brusque answer. IA or Mod has not talked publicly about rolling into Lhasa primarily because the logistical chains will take a lot of sacrifice to defend and maintain. It does not mean I know any more than you. Just shared a point of view based on my perception.

Marten ji, I am not once saying that Tibetans hate us.

My response was to a poster who said china should worry about its public response to bodybags.
I m only saying that knowing the ways of devious china, they may have already planned for propaganda psyops.


Frankly what we miserably need is a greater understanding of what the Tibetans in Tibet feel and are doing. can we depend on them to revolt when the time comes.

The last news of Monk revolt/immolation in Tibet came quite a few years ago.
Sir, Tibetans have been fighting against Chinese occupation, their spiritual leader is in India, so many Tibetans live across the globe, do you honestly believe Tibetans will buy whatever propaganda Chinese i.e. their oppressors indulge in? To me, this is unnecessary and uninformed worry you are bringing into the fray.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Fair point Karthik.

But I still don't know how Tibetans within Tibet after years or re-eduction think and behave. Can they do a present day mukti bahini if required

We are only exposed to Tibetans outside Tibet.

When I see North Koreans express their emotions with robotic similarity on govt approved videos, my personal fear is that Tibetans may not have fallen pray to same

Will desist from further uninformed worry.

---------------------

Normally it is China in the past telling GOI to reign in Indian media.
GOI should now say the same to PRC
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

Karthik S wrote:
AdityaM wrote:

Marten ji, I am not once saying that Tibetans hate us.

My response was to a poster who said china should worry about its public response to bodybags.
I m only saying that knowing the ways of devious china, they may have already planned for propaganda psyops.


Frankly what we miserably need is a greater understanding of what the Tibetans in Tibet feel and are doing. can we depend on them to revolt when the time comes.

The last news of Monk revolt/immolation in Tibet came quite a few years ago.
Sir, Tibetans have been fighting against Chinese occupation, their spiritual leader is in India, so many Tibetans live across the globe, do you honestly believe Tibetans will buy whatever propaganda Chinese i.e. their oppressors indulge in? To me, this is unnecessary and uninformed worry you are bringing into the fray.
Sir , that is the biggest mistake we are doing. Tibetans ARE NOT fighting Chinese occupation. They are forbidden to do so by DL. When they will start fighting, things will be different. Dalai lama is wants peace. He got Noble prize for that and he is living to prove that it was rightly given to him. I call this Prize Trap. So many times in his sermons he says he is pained by this and that. Young people are ready to act. If DL dies today, things will be different within two years.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

When I said fighting, I didn't mean guns and war. I meant the demand for independence. I know DL asked for autonomy and not complete independence.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by panduranghari »

Karan M wrote:India should first and foremost start imposing heavy punitive tarriffs on Chinese goods into India. As long as $60Bn trade imbalance exists, all this is high farce. That's 3 MMRCA deals @100 aircraft each, per year.
The first thing we must do before this is withdraw from WTO. If we do things without withdrawing, WTO can impose punitive sanctions on us and as we are already members, we will have to pay. Withdrawal from all these western institutions will permit us to negotiate independently with other countries and if they want a market, they will negotiate.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Marten »

DL knows there will be war when he passes. So do the Chinese. Which is why their aggression has increased.
The whole battle with us now is to secure the first challenge they face (India), followed by the second issue: the successor.

Instead of WTO withdrawal, why not test and test our ability to sustain sanctions?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

rsingh wrote: Sir , that is the biggest mistake we are doing. Tibetans ARE NOT fighting Chinese occupation. They are forbidden to do so by DL. When they will start fighting, things will be different. Dalai lama is wants peace. He got Noble prize for that and he is living to prove that it was rightly given to him. I call this Prize Trap. So many times in his sermons he says he is pained by this and that. Young people are ready to act. If DL dies today, things will be different within two years.
Unfortunately HH the Dalai Lama is considered an incarnation of Avalokiteśvara, the Bodhisattva of compassion. That limits him from advocating violence in any form. I think this was a disadvantage Indian Buddhists also had while facing Islamic hordes. Other Buddhist sect such as those in Japan did not have such problems.
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