Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 17:46

Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2017 17:52

India raised Tibet, stapled visa issues with China: Sushma Swaraj - ToI

To a question, she said there was no policy under which Chinese companies are denied security permission. She also objected to a member raising the issue of a particular Chinese company in the House.

Did some member ask a question in favour of a Chinese company in the Parliament?

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Jul 2017 17:54

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

Just to let you know, it is called Indian Army. The largest volunteer army on this planet.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Jul 2017 17:58

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

I've suggested this before, we have NCC program, the basic certification takes longer than the training duration of certain police forces around the world. We can form militias as 2nd line of defense.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Jul 2017 17:58

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

Our Army is already a Volunteer Army. No conscription. If you missed the bus, you can join the Territorial Army. If you do not want to go there, you may try para military.

For civvie folks, best is NCC at school, college levels or Home Guard kind of training which I do not think most will like. But the options exist.

UlanBatori wrote:So if we reach desi mobile phone buyers, that's it. Achieve a 50 to 80 percent cut in sales of Chinese mobile phones in India and the lesson is conveyed.

The big imports other than telecom from China are "Toys", real estate material like fixtures and tiles, furnitures (office and home), electricity products.

Apart from these there are large scale industrial products being bought from China.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2017 18:02

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

What exactly do you mean??

India's armed forces are completely and 100% an all volunteer force.

the chinese have a conscription army. Four years compulsory service I think

williams · Post by **williams** » 27 Jul 2017 18:12

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

There is already NCC and TA. We need to improve marketing/ads to get more people to join

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Jul 2017 18:14

Since someone brought NCC I can tell what used to there when I was in School level NCC Army and Air wing- They have High school level A1 and A2 ( I think) and B and C at the college level. All the three wings have NCC. Army people used to be there for training. Mainly in marching etc. Firing guns etc are rare in A1 and A2. My understanding is that C level was almost like forces level and a 40 days army attachment camp used to be there as per my information. My mother was so afraid that I will join Army I was forced not to join NCC in college. People with C certificate used to get jobs etc in Para military forces like BSF etc.

Now almost there are no NCC people on the roads like my time. I do not know any school offering that also. Time to revive that in a big way.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2017 18:25

China and India file rival claims over Tibetan medicine

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 18:31

Phones are the most obvious, high-value items to reach. Get one person to switch purchase from Chinese to Mongolian, and you have hit the YelPing Gecko by Rs. 10,000 to Rs. 30,000.

And phones are most obvious also because the message can be propagated by phone.
Toys, purses, shoes, all come next, but you cannot spread the message using those, and each item is lower value. So you have to raise the mass consciousness using the phones and then the rest can be hit.

BIG problem IMO is solar panels. High-ticket item if you get to them, but not worth it. GOI has already filed suit for dumping etc. But IMO, one should keep buying these because each one brings India one bit closer to energy independence. So it is a valid defence purchase. No sense in hiking the price on those too much, we'll be just hurting ourselves.

BTW, a 250Watt PV system (entire system, much of it not made in geckostan), can be acquired for less than the cost of a Lenovo latest model mobile phone. So the phone is the proper place to appeal to desis' patriotism, shame or maybe sense of self-preservation: Do you want to get slapped because you have a Rs. 50K Chinese SmartPhone up against ur ear?
Do you know that Chinese SmartPhones are used to spy on you and send pictures of you sitting on the Throne to FaceBook?

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 18:32

I didn't mean the main army but a supporting volunteer army not officially enlisted to the main army and not paid a salary but only provided some training and logistics. They are grouped according to the capability and move up and down groups according to commitment and capability and trained accordingly.

Karthik S wrote:
samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?
We can form militias as 2nd line of defense.

This is closer to what I meant. A militia that is not paid for (in salary other than training and logistics) by Indian govt and to start the preparations BEFORE a war starts.

In ww2 lot of civilians picked up a gun and went to war to support the main army. Something to encourage this but with some basic training already provided. As they say one of the reasons that land invasion of USA is almost impossible is due to the number of folks that know to fire a gun and possess guns. We dont need to give the public guns but can train them.

samirdiw wrote:
Ask the citizens to join after they take an oath where the country defense is above any ideology to prevent wrong folks from entering. Provide an initial 30-day(this is just an example) training on using an assault rifle plus basic army training and then every month once report for continued training. This could be in every district and be open to both sexes. This will also harden the national psyche to face any kind of threat internal or external.

A back of the envelope calc gives us the following
consider folks between 15 - 45 (older up to 55 can also join if reasonably fit ). If we assume 200million in each 10-year bracket up to 60 then we start with 600 million
Eliminate 30% for those who may be ideologically opposed - remaining 420 million
Take 50% off for women (some may join and should be encouraged) - remaining ~ 200 million
So from a base of 200 million even if 10% join that's 20 million trained folks as the reserve that can support the main army without any additional expense other than training, ammo and food supplies in case of war.

Imagine some 5 million additional warriors on the Chinese border along with the Indian army. Why wait for the war of attrition when we can be alongside the main force from the beginning itself?

Instead of making it an Indian forces vs Chinese forces turn it into a India vs Chinese forces thus skewing the battle completely in our favor ( a la Stalingrad from the beginning).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 18:37

Guys, get real. Are you proposing to send masses of soosai sdres charging up into the rarefied heights of the Himalayas - carrying what? They will just get in the way of the professional forces, and tie them up completely in medevac and food supply efforts when they should be focused on fighting.

What are these hordes going to use for weapons? Throw gas cylinders? Trishuls(I mean the original item, not the missile)? How are they going to get close enough to the Chinese? Can they hit a Chinese tank, firing from 10 feet away, without shattering their own jaw or collarbone?
How many ppl here think (sorry I asked) they can actually take aim, pull the pin out of a grenade, and throw it accurately at least 30 meters, instead of dropping it behind or between their own legs? I mean when a Chinese soldier is taking aim from 30 meters away?

Civil defense preparedness drills are not to train the sdres for when the Chinese come marching into the towns down South, but to instill some sense of what is involved in military training & discipline. The point of getting ppl to dig ditches and tunnels is to make them THINK, and get mad at the Chinese. So they dump their mobile phones.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2017 18:44

Simple solution to WTO rules.Chinese phones,toys,etc. use highly toxic materials.Have to be banned. Fireworks,etc. are combustible,come under the "explosives" category,like Chin mil eqpt.used by our Naxal/Maoists,also banned."Godless" China promoting atheism in China,banning religion,cannot make "gods and goddesses"/deities of Indian religions,highly insulting to Indian sentiments.You get my drift...Carry on with thousands of other Chinese products.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 18:45

They should be provided assault rifles and ammo. They can fight closer to the border areas along with some groups of the main army. This way the supplies wont be an issue as they will be supported by civilians moving ever closer to the boundary. They will also cover areas without the main military so that chinese will find it difficult to circle around the main army.

Instead of sitting and folks fighting on facebook and twitter why not the govt prepare to support the main army from the start instead of avoiding the war of attrition.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jul 2017 18:47

SSridhar wrote:India raised Tibet, stapled visa issues with China: Sushma Swaraj - ToI
To a question, she said there was no policy under which Chinese companies are denied security permission. She also objected to a member raising the issue of a particular Chinese company in the House.
Did some member ask a question in favour of a Chinese company in the Parliament?

Asked about India's stand on Tibet, she said "Asked about India's stand on Tibet, she said "we used to earlier talk of One China policy, but we used to say that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India . And when we say that, we want that China should also recognise this. Our policy has been made very clear." . And when we say that, we want that China should also recognise this. Our policy has been made very clear."

Does this mean we are shifting away from one china policy? Or I am reading too much in this..

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 18:53

That is exactly what I read there. If they don't recognize AP and J&K as integral parts of India, sorry onlee, Xinjiangistan, Tibetistan, Honkongistan, Inner Mongolia, all different also. In any event, Tibet is a Occupied country with its legitimate govt operating out of Dharmasala.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2017 18:54

DrRatnadip wrote:Does this mean we are shifting away from one china policy? Or I am reading too much in this..

It is quite some time that we stopped adding this ritual line in our dealings with China.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 18:55

Where is Motorola Moto G made?

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 19:01

UlanBatori wrote:Guys, get real. Are you proposing to send masses of soosai sdres charging up into the rarefied heights of the Himalayas - carrying what? They will just get in the way of the professional forces, and tie them up completely in medevac and food supply efforts when they should be focused on fighting.

OMG! 100,000 desis charging up the Himalayas with trishuls, talwars and all sorts of weapons from the Muddle Ages. It would be like a scene from Bahubali!

If we do this, we must get someone from B'wood to film it!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 19:04

Actually it is an awesome idea. Much more deadly than 10 Agni launches towards Beijing. This will put the entire PoritBulo in hospital with broken ribs from ROTFL.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jul 2017 19:08

But along those lines, what would be the effect if the Indian Army reported finding a buried idol (or a very large Trishul) 100 km north of this point, I wonder.... The PLA will get wiped out in the Holy Stampede.

In fact I wonder if the Mullah Shivullah in his wide Himalayan travels might not have come across a CLEAR TRISHUL image at the northern end of the Dhoklapuri Plateau? If so, please kindly post that image here onlee, so that we can propagate it.

See pic of Om Parvat here, for inspiration.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jul 2017 19:10

samirdiw wrote:They should be provided assault rifles and ammo. They can fight closer to the border areas along with some groups of the main army. This way the supplies wont be an issue as they will be supported by civilians moving ever closer to the boundary. They will also cover areas without the main military so that chinese will find it difficult to circle around the main army.

Instead of sitting and folks fighting on facebook and twitter why not the govt prepare to support the main army from the start instead of avoiding the war of attrition.

Only rifles and ammo are not enough to make an effective fighting force..It will be too difficult to provide required supplies ,medical aid to these people.. Half knowledge is always dangerous.. Giving people better emergency training/ Dos and Don'ts during war is ok but using civilians for fighting border war in himalays will cause more problems..

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 19:12

Still nothing happening. I expect as much. Chinis will jawbone until winter and then pretend nothing happen and we will leave our 20 to 1 manpower advantage and iur 300 to 24 aircraft advantage on the border to rot. Because, of course, we are good guys and beating up an outnumbered opponent who THREATENED us is unsporting.

We'll come to rue this in 10 years when Chini bases are everywhere along OBOR. In GB, in Gwadar, in Dhaka, in Chahabar, in Tehran, in Djibouti. And they will have never had to fire a shot.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 19:12

Already mentioned in detail earlier about the weaponry (assault rifles), training, support (along the border +/- 20 km so supply won't be a problem). The Chinese cannot do the same due to the distance from their mainland but we can change the situation in our favor. Those already in the northern areas or used to higher altitudes can fight along the chinese border while the others can defend along the paki border or start acclimatizing in j&k and others during the war etc.

IF we lose some territory do we think we should agree to a ceasefire (which the Chinese will do at some point after gain in territory) or continue the battle?

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 19:14

UlanBatori wrote:But along those lines, what would be the effect if the Indian Army reported finding a buried idol (or a very large Trishul) 100 km north of this point, I wonder.... The PLA will get wiped out in the Holy Stampede.

LOL. The most hilarious thing I heard this week. Mongol saar, you are funny as hell.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 19:18

DrRatnadip wrote: Only rifles and ammo are not enough to make an effective fighting force..It will be too difficult to provide required supplies ,medical aid to these people.. Half knowledge is always dangerous.. Giving people better emergency training/ Dos and Don'ts during war is ok but using civilians for fighting border war in himalays will cause more problems..

Thanks for the response. We should also be provided some basic training besides the weaponry as mentioned earlier. As we are fighting closer to the border (within a range of 20 km max in front supplies will be a lesser problem. We can also be provided medical aid by civilian medicals and others (trained) and leave the army medicals for the jawans (for the most part and vice versa).

Operations must be planned along with the army as each civilian group will have a leadership structure reporting to an army boss and not just left loose to run on their own. They should be treated in operations as the main army but with lesser capability.

Again the question is very simple - IF we lose some territory(some not a complete state but a few kms inside) do we think we should agree to a ceasefire (which the Chinese will do at some point after gain in territory) or continue the battle till we get them back?

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 19:42

Consider these scenarios

Scenario 1. 500 IA vs 1000 PLA - Outcome unknown

Scenario 2. 500 IA + 5000 Armed civilians vs 1000 PLA. The civilians army can help tie down the PLA with overhead fire / Prevent the PLA from circling while the army can focus on picking them up?

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 19:49

samirdiw wrote:Consider these scenarios

Scenario 1. 500 IA vs 1000 PLA - Outcome unknown

Scenario 2. 500 IA + 5000 Armed civilians vs 1000 PLA. The civilians army can help tie down the PLA with overhead fire / Prevent the PLA from circling while the army can focus on picking them up?

The IA/IAF already outnumber the PLA/PLAAF by a wide margin along the entire border.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2017 19:53

Every Indian has some worth to the nation in his or her occupation/speciality.Therefore,every Indian should be identified for his/her value/worth and "networked" into a super matrix so that their daily work translates into a real force multiplying machine for the growth of the antion.Those having mil /scientific/intel,etc.,capability,should be swiftly woven into the security apparatus of the nation. The talents of the billion++ Indians should not be wasted due to non-utilisation by the estaablishment.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jul 2017 19:55

samirdiw wrote:Consider these scenarios

Scenario 1. 500 IA vs 1000 PLA - Outcome unknown

Scenario 2. 500 IA + 5000 Armed civilians vs 1000 PLA. The civilians army can help tie down the PLA with overhead fire / Prevent the PLA from circling while the army can focus on picking them up?

That will lead to huge casualities on our side sir..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2017 19:55

UlanBatori wrote:Seriously, shiv, this "disputed area" nonsense has to be stopped. How does one publish some high-res maps of the Himalayas and Tibet, with borders and locations properly marked? Yeah, we can't change Googal, but if someone types "Dok La" in a Search Engine, we would like our map to come up, showing Dok La in parenthesis next to "Dhoklapur" named in honor of the great Malloo chai-kada where they serve said Gujarati delicacy. Entire Kazhuthappadam aka Yellow River Valley should be properly marked as Indian.

I get too many diverse thoughts in reaction to this post.

First off let me put down the easiest thing to say. Apparently most of these areas had not been mapped accurately. Geographical features were known by local names which varied from region to region. For example "Chumbi" is called Yadung and Yatong. It is quite likely that the Chinese started serious exploration and mapping before "Independent India" started doing that - with "Independent India" simply picking up what the Brits had done and being completely ignorant of what the Brits did not do.

As a consequence of this I have read (actual documented accounts" from 1962, 1965, 1971 and even during Maldives action 1988 periods when both of us were unborn) That the army, navy and air force had no accurate maps.

I am informed that the Indian military remote sensing agency (whose name and acronym I am unable to recall) has been remedying this for a couple of decades - but the void is so huge that I think if the Chinese appear in some area - the local villagers and army units may have some idea of the terrain and lie of teh land but they will have to contact Delhi or whatever to get actual sat images and scale maps. Until Google Earth some of this stuff was completely unavailable to any desi and only in the last decade or so has bandwidth improved and easily available graphics cards become good enough to render Google map type images for public consumption. Our military folks are probably ahead of us only by a decade (my guess)

As regards "disputed area" - the wording is mine but I do know that there are many areas that India and China both claim and when the armies of both nations started meeting frequently in those areas - some areas were "agreed" upon as a border. In other areas it was agreed that the Line of Actual control (not border) would be respected - and that each side would not try and build infrastructure in the areas that the other did not agree with. Most of these areas are so remote and so vast and so high up that they cannot be manned 365 days a year. So if you have an Indian army camp near the LAC - 5000 meters up on a peak overlooking a plateau 10 km wide. The Indian army may patrol that area once in a while and the Chinese may do it another time. Tracks may be found but if anything is built or demolished there is a "dispute" which is generally settled without guns (since 1967 Indian response at Nathu La)

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jul 2017 20:03

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/ajit-do ... 793398.cms

Sikkim standoff: NSA Ajit Doval meets his Chinese Counterpart Yang Jiechi

BEIJING: Amid the Sikkim standoff, National Security Adviser Ajit Doval on Thursday held talks with his Chinese Counterpart and State Councillor Yang Jiechi on the sidelines of the BRICS NSAs meeting here.
Yang met separately with senior security representatives from South Africa, Brazil and India, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2017 20:06

samirdiw wrote:Any thoughts for India to start raising a volunteer army instead of leaving the public to dhoti shiver?

The idea to my mind is as emotional as Nehru sobbing while listening to Ae mere watan ke logon.

The picture that this plan generates in my mind is of a person who sees, in his minds eye the Indian army being slaughtered like pigs and lying in pools of blood while the Chinese victoriously roll in. So what does one's emotional patriotic heart say while crying for the mother land? "Let us all go with sticks, bricks, spears etc"

Actually things are not that bad. These are "hysterical" ideas of people who are so deeply scared that they can't think straight. Sorry I am being blunt. I have read enough rubbish. Neither are our armed forces so bad, nor is it workable to send panicky people with sticks - they can all be gunned down with one well placed machine gun. So fuggedabahtit

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2017 20:09

samirdiw wrote:Consider these scenarios

Scenario 1. 500 IA vs 1000 PLA - Outcome unknown

Scenario 2. 500 IA + 5000 Armed civilians vs 1000 PLA. The civilians army can help tie down the PLA with overhead fire / Prevent the PLA from circling while the army can focus on picking them up?

Sir. Please stop.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2017 20:11

samirdiw wrote:Consider these scenarios

Scenario 1. 500 IA vs 1000 PLA - Outcome unknown

Scenario 2. 500 IA + 5000 Armed civilians vs 1000 PLA. The civilians army can help tie down the PLA with overhead fire / Prevent the PLA from circling while the army can focus on picking them up?

This is a foolish scenario. Fighting is best left to professional and trained forces. Having said so, do you really think that millions indians will not sign up for service in the army. When the shooting starts.

So thanks but no thanks.

May be you are really looking for a citizens army. Look up swiss army and our yahudi cousens. But any discussion on this is way off topic.

India is best served with a professional army.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 20:16

chola wrote:
samirdiw wrote:Consider these scenarios

The IA/IAF already outnumber the PLA/PLAAF by a wide margin along the entire border.

They can always be reinforced by the PLA if they are not fighting elsewhere plus we can be stretched if Pak army joins.

The Chinese are not going to fight a larger group with smaller. As seen in 1962 strategy they employed they will identify/ensure local areas where they have superiority or can encircle to ensure as such instead of making it a 1-1.

Another thing we should not miss is the morale boost for the army when they see civilians also fighting along side them in large numbers without any pay! No one will be thinking of their family back home when they see this.

IF we lose some territory(some not a complete state but a few kms inside) do we think we should agree to a ceasefire (which the Chinese will do at some point after gain in territory) or continue the battle till we get them back?

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 27 Jul 2017 20:26

Pratyush wrote:
samirdiw wrote:do you really think that millions indians will not sign up for service in the army

Why wait till a fight starts instead of training in the basics much earlier? How much training can be got in the midst of a war? Higher training can be provided for the better fighters.

Having a professional army doesn't mean not supported by non-professional. If the US or Russia fight a war where they see large losses dont you think they would force a conscription even though they may have professional armies. In the US even recently when the talk of women having the right to join all divisions including seals came up the question was then doesn't it mean that women have the responsibility to be conscripted and quite a few women said it makes sense.

Would we rather talk about mobile phones? Chinese wouldn't care a shit about mobile phones if their strategic objectives are met. And Indians will be rebuying mobile phones from them in a few years anyway.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Jul 2017 20:28

UlanBatori wrote:Where is Motorola Moto G made?

India.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Jul 2017 20:32

samirdiw wrote:...

Somebody please stop this.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2017 20:33

DrRatnadip wrote:
SSridhar wrote:India raised Tibet, stapled visa issues with China: Sushma Swaraj - ToI

Did some member ask a question in favour of a Chinese company in the Parliament?
Asked about India's stand on Tibet, she said "Asked about India's stand on Tibet, she said "we used to earlier talk of One China policy, but we used to say that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India . And when we say that, we want that China should also recognise this. Our policy has been made very clear." . And when we say that, we want that China should also recognise this. Our policy has been made very clear."

Does this mean we are shifting away from one china policy? Or I am reading too much in this..

our joint statements have stopped mentioning the one china policy for quite some time now, no??