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Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 10:03

I wonder how they would fare vs the yemeni houthis?

Even their tall wheaty pakfriends recused themselves deftly

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 11:00

Mystery tweet without location or how he detected the hectic activity

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 2250686464

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 13 Aug 2017 11:14

Singha wrote:Mystery tweet without location or how he detected the hectic activity

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 2250686464

Have been trying to locate for the last 3 days. South of Rikaze is such a general statement

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 11:26

Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.
2) I am sure that the deployment of these Arty guns will be visible in SAT images but whether IA counter batteries or can effectively target such highly mobile units and disrupt their decision loops a) during rearmament times b) during actual firing times c) disrupt logistics etc
3) Whether IA has scoped out enough cover for their own artillery to withstand this barrage and still be effective, whether IA logistics can withstand attacks on logistics nodes via Arty or CMs
4) PLA will bring TSP military advisors and ISI intelligence inputs to help them in understanding how the IA fights and how best to cripple the IA attacks
5) They will use their drone manufacturing superiority and deploy that with innovation (think a PLA platoon using drones to attack IA positions with small arms/grenades that are precision delivered)

Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. I am confident that as a fighting force we will adjust to the pressures that the PLA puts and come out winners. Our ability to bring more to the table over a longer period due to shorter logistics will be extremely critical, it will even jumpstart the Indian MIC. This will not be a short war should the PLA choose to start it... All of Tibet will be open to probes and attacks over the next 10 years as we ramp up our MIC ourselves. We need to deploy drone blunting/hunting technology/strategies.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RKumar » 13 Aug 2017 11:39

^ Good analysis except you have discounted IAF role. It is given that IA will also use locally produced WLR, which we used effectively against PA.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 13 Aug 2017 12:27

tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.
2) I am sure that the deployment of these Arty guns will be visible in SAT images but whether IA counter batteries or can effectively target such highly mobile units and disrupt their decision loops a) during rearmament times b) during actual firing times c) disrupt logistics etc
3) Whether IA has scoped out enough cover for their own artillery to withstand this barrage and still be effective, whether IA logistics can withstand attacks on logistics nodes via Arty or CMs
4) PLA will bring TSP military advisors and ISI intelligence inputs to help them in understanding how the IA fights and how best to cripple the IA attacks
5) They will use their drone manufacturing superiority and deploy that with innovation (think a PLA platoon using drones to attack IA positions with small arms/grenades that are precision delivered)

Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. .


While the PLA probably has better artillery and have less concerns about ammo supply, their logistics constraints remain. There may be flatter land 20-40 km behind the LAC (which means they can't reach much beyond the LAC with any degree of accuracy) but the guns still need to arrive there with their ammo supply, along with thousands of other vehicles trying to use the same road, while being interdicted by the IAF and possibly special forces (Tibetan exiles dropped behind the LAC). IA has had years to prepare their positions against massed artillery.

I'm not aware of the PLA having any tactical success in Korea or Vietnam. They lost several times more than a Vietnamese conscript army which had less heavy weapons than the PLA. They lost a million men in Korea.
Last edited by Deans on 13 Aug 2017 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 12:37

In Korea the losses were in the 8-10 for one range. That was the height of the human wave warfare. Are the Chinese going to repeat that in this age at Indo-Tibet border?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Malayappan » 13 Aug 2017 12:52

Not strictly a "neutering the threat" issue but given the discussions in this thread, could be an interesting viewpoint.

Monu Nallapat assesses that a 'neocon' faction in PLA is influenced by pakistan.

Pak GHQ using PLA ‘neocons’ to damage India-China ties

His suggested "way out" may not work, but it is worth reflecting on how China could be outsourcing its India Policy to pakistan, unwittingly or otherwise...
Also some interesting data points on access to US military info for China..

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 13:01

BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 13 Aug 2017 13:46

tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.


Artillery is useless in mountains unless they can see what they are hitting. As I mentioned earlier, Soldiers are deployed in reverse slopes. In an indirect mode only motars have the required elevation to target reverse slope positions. We pounded the Pakis in Kargil with 250000 rounds and full air dominance.

How long did it take us to dislodge them?

If I assume they are targeting the our positions in plateau with FOO, well in that case have you seen Jags flying lowing and cluster bombing targets..or SU30 dropping 24 bombs.. it is quite beautiful :D

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 13 Aug 2017 15:50

pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Not far and not with any kind of accuracy (due to the same high altitude that gives longer range). Moreover, PLA artillery on flat ground is
far more susceptible to artillery fire/ air strikes, than our positions in the mountains.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 16:45

There are certain parallels between the present Indo-China issue with Tibet starting with Doklam 2017 and the USA-Mexico fight over Texas starting with the Alamo 1836. The 1836 Alamo battle set the stage for the rise of USA as a major force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 16:54

Deans wrote:
tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology m
Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. .


While the PLA probably has better artillery and have less concerns about ammo supply, their logistics constraints remain. There may be flatter land 20-40 km behind the LAC (which means they can't reach much beyond the LAC with any degree of accuracy) but the guns still need to arrive there with their ammo supply, along with thousands of other vehicles trying to use the same road, while being interdicted by the IAF and possibly special forces (Tibetan exiles dropped behind the LAC). IA has had years to prepare their positions against massed artillery.

I'm not aware of the PLA having any tactical success in Korea or Vietnam. They lost several times more than a Vietnamese conscript army which had less heavy weapons than the PLA. They lost a million men in Korea.


Knowing the PLA I would wager that the Chinese have disbursed Weapons Caches, Fuel and Ammo Dumps already layed up in various staging areas, secret tunnels/holes in ground all over Tibet. They will not run out unless our intelligence has tagged them and has the ability to take them out as soon as the war goes hot?

What happens if there are no thousands of vehicles only say only 500 Self Propelled Artillery Trucks Wheeling about in Tibet under the air cover of PLAAF

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 17:19

Do you know anything about a artillery regt operates?
It seems you do not.

Firstly not even usaf can guarantee a air cover in an area the size of tibet from 6 airbases all within range of our counterstrikes

Secondly those 500 sp guns will need a constant supply of ammo fuel food and secured surveyed sites with civil engg assets, sam cover and weather radar and c3i trucks and organic support assets with spare parts like engines and barrels. They cannot just roam alone in a place the size of india

And about these secret sites we have had years of watching these daily with half dozen sats ... not so secret anymore

Its ok to come up with dhoti shiver scenarios but be realistic

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 17:25

1. Certainly they could disperse their stores but to get the dispersed store for a massed attack has its own logistic issues.
2. As Shiv saar had pointed out earlier, the Chinese have good road to all their assets. If that is the case then it is just a matter of keeping an eye on those roads/tracks.
3. Even otherwise, our sat capability should help us spot unusual traffic to and from unmarked areas. This is one area were we can expect help for US i.e. Sat intelligence.
4. As others have pointed out the Tibetain terrain that *might* help them with mobility also affords us easy sighting and shooting.
5. BTW, What looks plain/flat on map is never that flat on the ground. Take the Doklam plateau as an example. Plateau implies a table top but do have a look at the terrain on the so called *plateau* on google maps 3D version and orient the map as if you looking in from the east. I have taken a screenshot for studying the terrain and I will post later.
6. While shooting at that elevation might add to the range of fire but if the equipment is not calibrated then it would also make the equipment inaccurate.
7. Moreover, IA is deployed on the reverse slope with only a small detachment holding the crest lines / passes. That makes targeting that much more difficult or near impossible.
8. While altitude might add to the range, the terrain makes it impossible to shoot on the ideal ballistic trajectory. To target reverse slopes I would think one would need to use lofted trajectory and that will cut down the range.

One can read on the Nathu La skirmish to get an idea on Arty role during that incident and who did a better job and more importantly why.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Aug 2017 18:18

pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 18:30

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/

In the mountains, “small mistakes can lead to catastrophic events,” while “technological supremacy can be negated by even the most crude and non-technical enemy actions,” the new manual said.
Therefore, “Mountain combat calls for extreme physical fitness, mental toughness, endurance, and the utmost in tactical and technical proficiency on the part of all individuals.” With proper leadership and preparation, “the physical characteristics of mountains can support and enhance offensive operations.”

Tell me who will benefit from it, 16 Mountain division from India who practice this every day (and have been bloodied as part of RR in JK/NE) or the famed 32 plain divisions that can be rushed 2000KM to Tibetan platue (even if properly acclimatized). Tactics/endurance/logistics (tech playing lesser role) play a higher role.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Aug 2017 18:51

fanne wrote:https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/

In the mountains, “small mistakes can lead to catastrophic events,” while “technological supremacy can be negated by even the most crude and non-technical enemy actions,” the new manual said.
Therefore, “Mountain combat calls for extreme physical fitness, mental toughness, endurance, and the utmost in tactical and technical proficiency on the part of all individuals.” With proper leadership and preparation, “the physical characteristics of mountains can support and enhance offensive operations.”

Tell me who will benefit from it, 16 Mountain division from India who practice this every day (and have been bloodied as part of RR in JK/NE) or the famed 32 plain divisions that can be rushed 2000KM to Tibetan platue (even if properly acclimatized). Tactics/endurance/logistics (tech playing lesser role) play a higher role.



16? We have only 12 mountain divisions.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SriKumar » 13 Aug 2017 18:53

I would say a war, if it comes, will be a chance for GOI to test all the new defense systems that India has come up with. CEP testing of Prithivi/Agni with conventional warheads should yield useful data for high-altitude CEP in Tibet.

I had read about this glide bomb with a range of 100 km. This can be deployed well within India's borders and take out targets deep within Tibet. And if released it Tibet, entire TIbet is its playing field with no cover for the Chinese. Aircraft can release this from outside SAM range.

It was first tested in 2014 (or 2013). This test is in 2016. Dropped from a Su-30. The Garthmaa bomb is 1000 kg!! Accurate CEP not required.
http://topyaps.com/drdo-drop-tests-glide-bombs
Images in this website are fake/imagined.

These could be as effective as cruise missiles if CEP is good, but with a 1000 kg payload....who needs accuracy. And hey, if the bomb's accuracy is useless, this is an opportunity to improve it, for future conflicts on Tibet.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Aug 2017 18:53

Malayappan wrote:Not strictly a "neutering the threat" issue but given the discussions in this thread, could be an interesting viewpoint.

Monu Nallapat assesses that a 'neocon' faction in PLA is influenced by pakistan.

Pak GHQ using PLA ‘neocons’ to damage India-China ties

His suggested "way out" may not work, but it is worth reflecting on how China could be outsourcing its India Policy to pakistan, unwittingly or otherwise...
Also some interesting data points on access to US military info for China..

The fact is that China doesn't need to be manipulated by GHQ, Rawalpindi about India. GHQ may be doing all that, no doubt, but China doesn't need any such trigger for its policy towards India.

Since the 50s, China has considered India as an arch enemy and has been condescending about us. It doesn't require an Einstein to tell us that its nuke, missile & diplomatic support to Pakistan, its opposition to India everywhere, its threatening & abusive language against us, its frequent incursions et al are as a result of this. Fundamental to this is the ideology that there cannot be two swords in one scabbard. That again goes back to the Chinese imperialism.

China is left with few friends in the world today (it may have its way with many small countries but that is different) and even fewer in Asia. Its two lapdogs are North Korea & Pakistan, as we all know. There is no doubt that Indian Army recognizes that future wars are going to be 2-front or 3-front war (third front being internal Islamist threats). Frequently top echelons of Indian armed forces have talked of that eventuality and their preparation. The 'Road to Nowhere in Doka La Area', as Nalapat refers to it, is actually the building block for that eventuality, as also the huge presence of PLA in POK under the guise of building infrastructure projects. As we have always said here, Pakistan is already a province of China. The DAWN leak recently of the real Chinese objectives of CPEC clearly had Sinicization of Pakistan as one primary goal. Pakistan will be 'half-cooked' in Chinese narrative. The Chinese objective is to cause a break-up of India in the East and the North. The idea is that India would be so much debilitated that it would no longer pose a threat to Chinese hegemony. China is confident that it can handle the USA and Japan once India is taken care of.

China is like Pakistan in some ways. In Pakistan, everybody wants to defeat, destroy & conquer India; only the degree & methods may differ. Some people who think that Nawaz Sharif has been softer to India are mistaken. He has the same fundamental objective as any other Pakistani. Similarly, no Han Chinese would tolerate another power centre in Asia (for the time being, before such intolerance is escalated to the rest of the world). That pits China directly against India. That there is a rift between the PLA & CPC is well known. Ever since XI ascended the throne and assumed overall command of the CMC, there has been frequent exhortations to the PLA to obey the Party line. This doesn't happen if there was complete obedience. This presented starkly nakedly during Xi Jinping's visit to India three years back. Therefore, some 'neocon' Generals may be trying a more aggressive tone, but the overall trend among CPC, Politburo, the Politburo Standing Committee and the President is to be inimical to India. Therefore, the 'advice' that Nalapat gives to China, though sane, is not implementable.

China has got itself into a tragicomic situation at Doka La. Extricating itself from that without losing face is impossible. Neither militarily, nor diplomatically it can do so. Simultaneous withdrawal of troops and withdrawal of Chinese construction equipment along with an assurance to discuss the issue peacefully with both Bhutan & India are the only possibilities. China can request India to help it word the statement in such a way that it didn't lose much face. However, even a peaceful resolution of this stand-off would be termed as a setback to PLA.

The only option available for Xi is to blame elements in PLA that were disobeying CPC and purge some Generals from the Western Theatre Command (which subsumed the erstwhile Chengdu Military Region responsible for this area).

On Pakistan handing over American equipment to China, it is well documented. Starting from faulty tomahawk missiles that crashed in Afghanistan in 1998 to crashed Chinook during OBL attack, things have found their way to China.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 18:57

If you read some serious literature - from Chinese POV they have following limitations -
1. Very long logistics line to mainland China (only an issue for a longer war, for shorter war, they would have stored supplies locally)
2. Mountain trained manpower - Limited to what they have in Tibet (which is not much). Soldiers can be acclimatized (as we did in 1962), but one not trained for mountain warfare is disadvantaged
3.Montain warfare is not conducive for large formation movement (hence large number does not count). However, some features exist where a mass attack can work. Hopefully we know them and are adequately prepared (and willing to do the same)
4.The Tibet side is relatively flat (which is good for logistics, but exposes them to interdiction), while the lofty peeks/valleys of Himalayas is on our side. The fight there is mostly uphill and crossing various choke points even if the Chinese breach the front.
5.Motivation- We are ready, we have a purpose, what are they fighting for? Teach a lesson?
6.Leadership - I think we are miles ahead (but so did TSPA thought to their surprise. Plus Chinese have shown that they have a system to learn fast as with their winning all medals in Olympic etc. shows). How much is that true for Mil leadership is the question. On our side, I assume all the officers would have done a tour of duty in JK/NE and are battle tested. Chicom Mil leadership also has to do some other non-army stuff like politics/business
7.Technology - Not a big differentiator as the Tech gap on either side is not great. Even with high number of Chinese equipment (we don't have any less)- Where will that get deployed? I think their locally stored equipment is no more than ours. We actually have local number and equipment supremacy.
8. Air force - We have clear advantage. Both superior weapon (SU30MKI vs SU27/J-XX), local numbers, distance, elevation and most important training and doctrine to fight in mountains.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 19:02

Amoghvarsha wrote:
fanne wrote:https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/




16? We have only 12 mountain divisions.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... isions.htm

count the divisions and their location

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 19:05

Dokalam Plateau as see from the east side.

Image

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 19:07

Amoghvarsha wrote:
pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.


bigger the range more costly and fat the MLRS becomes and needs some form of precision guidance and cannot be fired in a swarm like the cheap Grads. you are in effect talking of a pralay or atacms type tactical strike missile at that range not a "true" MLRS.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 19:10

Doklam plateau as seen from the north side. This is how the Chinese see the area and beyond. The bare ridge of at the top is Jampheri ridge. The ridge at the bottom is Batang La - Mergu La - Sinche La ridge. You can clearly see Bhutan/China border market along this ridge.

Image

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Aug 2017 19:19

Dhoti-Shiver (DS-1313):

Doklam is a diversion. The real mischief is elsewhere (if I know where I would post it). Suggestions: South of Andaman/ Nicobar. Lakshadweep. Maladweep. North Myanmar border with India.
Seychelles? Mauritius? South Nicobar is most likely: equal access issues from mainland India and from South Myanmar where lizard has strength. Attack completely directed at Indian NAVY, not IAF or IA. Objective: Debilitate capability to hit Gwadar or block Malacca Straits - of help Taiwan or Vietnam.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 19:28

tibet is a 1500km wide flat board with not a lot of places to hide . to get the point of biting deep into us, all of chinese assets have to come out on this board and maintain a moving supply line to the mainland. all within indian surveillance and strike capabilities. a chain can be broken or disrupted at any point in its long length. its a hard problem for any general staff. a single division needs 100s of tons of supplies daily else it will be combat ineffective and grind to a halt. if supplies are piled up close to the front before escalating, loses the element of suprise, our jaguars will have a field day mauling these depots.

secondly as the russians saw in afpak , the mechanized steppe/desert forces are vulnerable in the mountains and only a massive air dominance can somewhat reduce risk , hard to enforce over the himalaya vs india.

there are no other places where they can really bit into our flesh unless they can get Pakis to launch a war - this i am 101% sure the Pakis will deftly not agree to - they are not about to risk blood and treasure for some mythical promise of loot and plunder. if we isolate and hammer them , they could lose a lot at least cost to their chinese masters. even a lapdog knows when its time to get off and slink under the sofa .

thats noko and tsp trying to hide if usa and india get on their case properly. note the strong well muscled backside and wheat fed brown tail of our arabi biraders.

Image

this is a great window for India to slap the maldives and make them fall in line, cleanse their islamists and tear up the chinese contracts in bonfire in male. zero risk i tell ya.

seychelles, mauritius have india, uk and france as guarantors of their security. they are not going anywhere.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kati » 13 Aug 2017 19:53

Just in:

China Eastern Airlines ‘Misbehaves’ With Indian Passenger, Govt Takes Up Matter With Beijing

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/ch ... 27773.html

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 19:54

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a549118.pdf

happy reading. I did!!

Small forces, adept leadership, training (training and training), logistics, interdiction

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kati » 13 Aug 2017 19:54

Doklam standoff: Amid heightened tension, Indian insulted at Shanghai airport

https://www.newsbytesapp.com/timeline/W ... n-citizens

BSR Murthy
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby BSR Murthy » 13 Aug 2017 19:57

[quote="Singha"]tibet is a 1500km wide flat board with not a lot of places to hide . to get the point of biting deep into us, all of chinese assets have to come out on this board and maintain a moving supply line to the mainland. all within indian surveillance and strike capabilities. a chain can be broken or disrupted at any point in its long length. its a hard problem for any general staff. a single division needs 100s of tons of supplies daily else it will be combat ineffective and grind to a halt. if supplies are piled up close to the front before escalating, loses the element of suprise, our jaguars will have a field day mauling these depots.

secondly as the russians saw in afpak , the mechanized steppe/desert forces are vulnerable in the mountains and only a massive air dominance can somewhat reduce risk , hard to enforce over the himalaya vs india.

there are no other places where they can really bit into our flesh unless they can get Pakis to launch a war - this i am 101% sure the Pakis will deftly not agree to - they are not about to risk blood and treasure for some mythical promise of loot and plunder. if we isolate and hammer them , they could lose a lot at least cost to their chinese masters. even a lapdog knows when its time to get off and slink under the sofa .

thats noko and tsp trying to hide if usa and india get on their case properly. note the strong well muscled backside and wheat fed brown tail of our arabi biraders.

Image

101+
The picture is priceless Singha ji!

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kati » 13 Aug 2017 19:58

China is trying to undercut all other air carriers by offering lower price, which is attracting a lot of desi passengers. However, I would say that exercise caution, or if possible avoid all Chinese carriers. Check their customer service ratings online to get an idea. ...
Flew by Air China several times in the past, and every time there was an issue. There is no way to reach the customer service dept (the toll-free number never gets answered). Midway through the journey they bump off passengers citing flight cancellations (which that may be the case, they are doubly courteous to gora passengers, which leaving desi flyers high and dry).

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby jagga » 13 Aug 2017 20:16

kancha wrote:Folks, posted another blog on the quality of the PLA soldiers. This one is about an incident in South Sudan where the PLA peacekeepers ran away from their posts, abandoning their weapons upon coming under fire.
In the end, it was the Indian Peacekeepers from the Kumaon Regiment that restored the situation!

Blog Link

Twitter Link


BBC Newsnight had done a small documentary. Chinese left these poor lady's, in documentary, to be raped and murdered :(


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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby jagga » 13 Aug 2017 20:29

Chinease Peacekeepers Did Nothing As South Sudanese Soldiers Raped Women
"On July 17, two armed soldiers in uniform dragged away a woman who was less than a few hundred meters (yards) from the U.N. camp's western gate while armed peacekeepers on foot, in an armored vehicle and in a watchtower looked on. One witness estimated that 30 peacekeepers from Nepalese and Chinese battalions saw the incident."
" 'They were seeing it. Everyone was seeing it,' he said. 'The woman was seriously screaming, quarreling and crying also, but there was no help. She was crying for help.'"

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 20:33

One must not read too much into the incident and extrapolating such act to the whole Chinese army. That is a risky thing to do and lead to a sense of false security.

We must be prepared to deal with them on the assumption that the Chinese are capable soldiers and fight for what they think is theirs.
Last edited by pankajs on 13 Aug 2017 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 13 Aug 2017 20:39

SSridhar wrote:

Since the 50s, China has considered India as an arch enemy and has been condescending about us.

China is confident that it can handle the USA and Japan once India is taken care of.


SS sir, I think the Han in their over enthusiasm to establish their superiority over other yellow races never considered India as their rival. They were over obsessed with Japanese, still they consider Japanese as their rival though they were able to subjugate them with their economy. They still think of indians as Somalis who need bread. That is the reason for their hubris and condescension. Otherwise how can you explain their condescension towards India. There was no "string of pearls" strategy also, it was their natural tendency of creepy behaviour for which some learned analysts gave a name "string of pearls" in order to explain the threat of Han China, but when I asked some Han who are interested in strategic affairs, they never had India as a threat. Whatever little apprehension they had about India was that India could reach Lhasa much easier than the Han PLA, so they wanted to take Tawang desperately and they still want Tawang. But as far as the memory that India could be a formidable foe was erased in 1962.

Also you said they will take care of Japan and USA after India is subjugated. Here also I have a different opinion. After 2008, the have concluded that they have subjugated Japan and the remaining foe is only one, ie USA. They never considered India as any power more than Philippines at all.

That would also explain the hyperbole we see in gobartimes. Except Hu Jintao (they conveniently forgot about Tibet till Hu Jintao made the claim for Tawang, even though PLA voluntarily vacated Tawang in 1962, but Hu Jintao understood that Tawang is the strategically important to deny India any threat to Tibet, in case), no other chairman really know what is the threat that India can pose to China in the Tibet autonomous region. Eleven is totally dismissive of India in TAR or he considers India as a threat or even a rival or even anything more significant than Philippines. To explain more accurately, they think that all Indians are under nutritioned, half-naked fakirs like MK Gandhi who would readily show their cheak to slap. The Indians are cowardly to behave like that by showing their cheak and say we are not for war, whereas they are really coward but good poor people. Their concern is really honest that they don't want to hurt Indians. That's the reason why gobartimes is asking us to back off, as the Han may end up beating the undernourished Indians. When you understand the Han behaviour like this, then we can explain everything that is happening in Doka Lam from Han point of view.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Aug 2017 21:12

Singha wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:
Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.


bigger the range more costly and fat the MLRS becomes and needs some form of precision guidance and cannot be fired in a swarm like the cheap Grads. you are in effect talking of a pralay or atacms type tactical strike missile at that range not a "true" MLRS.


SY 300 are gps guided.I dont undrstand what do you mean by true mlrs.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vasu raya » 13 Aug 2017 21:26

There is the incident of a Russian Special forces operative calling a airstrike on himself when surrounded by ISIS militants, it was suicide but ensured higher enemy casualties. That incident raised the Russian forces image, which is what the Chinese might copy for a small skirmish and claim victory. Except here it may not be the Chinese 'special forces' operatives calling in for support when surrounded by Indian forces but the rocket forces commander or higher chain of command making the decision anyways, the story that will be told is of Chinese love for motherland

And, if TSP cannot be counted in the moment of crisis, can it be counted to protect CPEC? the Chinese would want to know

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby williams » 13 Aug 2017 21:29

We need to achieve air superiority over Tibetan air space with in the first 24 hours. While MKI and Mirage 2000 can take care of their fighters. We should use Jags to destroy their radar coverage and SAM threats. After that we should pound the PLA with PGMs before even IA visits them. Key strategy on our side should be to get IAF and IN involved the minute the first bullet is fired.
Last edited by williams on 13 Aug 2017 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vasu raya » 13 Aug 2017 21:30

if we manage to integrate LORROS type sensor with anti aircraft guns, the sensor is placed on a watch tower, can subsonic CMs be targeted? this is similar to Jugaad where BSF deployed machine guns on remotely operated turn tables to check infiltration.

wonder what kind of impact it can have on a EMP warhead, and no knowledge if they have such warheads and if so their radio destruction range


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