Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Suraj
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suraj »

Doklam and Pangong Tso both dramatically reduce PLA's and PRC's potency not just in our eyes, but in that of their client states. A bunch of P2 super power posers whose response to having their illegal constructions bulldozed is to yell back for 3 months, have Xinhua make stupid videos where the woman cannot speak English right and the 'Indian' looks like some tongzhi robbed a drag queen's wig and stuck it to his face, and do their version of a Palestinian intifada stone pelting.

What would they be thinking in Islamabad, Colombo or Dhaka now ? The all powerful dlagon who seemed so potent until early summer suddenly reduced to this when confronted.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by sanjaykumar »

What's the thinking in Tibet?
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bade »

The Highway 219 access via Aksai Chin area to Xinjiang is not as critical to the PLA as it was in the 60s and 70s perhaps anymore as they have developed even better connectivity both south and north of the Gobi to their western boundary areas. I do not think if India were to take over large parts of Aksai Chin area, it would be such a loss for them. Loss of Chumbi valley on the other hand is a real loss of face. We need to focus on the battle here in Ladakh to win land and keep it for good.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by williams »

Bade wrote:The well rounded corners of the rectangular protrusion tells me it has been leveled by the Chinese and must be intended for use as another boat jetty. It must have happened recently and gone unchallenged ?

A shooting war in that sector can remain localized, unlike in the Sikkim area. This is where we need to exercise a more robust version of salami slicing to push the PLA around further west. We can achieve a lot even with not going as far as liberating Tibet, which contains the escalation.
Exactly. Why should we think about not escalating when all we got from the enemy is rogue action. We should be unpredictable to the point they should fear a escalation from us. Besides, when we ask the boys to not fight with all they've got, it brings their morale down, while it makes the enemy to become more confident. We should allow some disciplined aggression.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by DrRatnadip »

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/govt-gi ... 147975.cms

Govt delegates greater financial powers to BRO to improve infrastructure

NEW DELHI: Confronted with the abysmal progress in building infrastructure for swifter mobility of troops and weapons along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the government has now approved greater delegation of administrative and financial powers to Border Roads Organisation (BRO) for faster execution of construction projects.
But first, the grim reality check: Only 27 "strategic roads" (963-km) of the 73 (totalling (4,643-km) identified for construction along the LAC over 15 years ago have been completed till now.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

Suraj wrote: What happened to this ?

This one was taken before the disastrous peeking Olympics, ideally targeted for the gullible western and paki audience (see, we have Segways). Soon they realized that the other side could walk faster than the Segways and that you need both hands and not just your awkwardly positioned knees to hold on to the wayward Segway.
Image


Or this ? Chinis have to have a functioning air craft carrier and matching background music to "highway to the danger zone" to get a top gun type synchronized support action.The wonders of ballet dancing and pee-yell-aaa.
Image


Or even this ? With one child policy and an imbalanced ratio of "boys" to "wimmen", that is what you get in the pee-yell-aaa. One guy trips and the rest are history (old confusion saying - chinis fall like dominoes when resting on each other's leg). This photo is up there with the one where the village conscripts carefully form a human bridge to allow the old and the feeble to cross. Very touching. Won many awards (in china).
Image

Instead with $150 billion defence budget they do this: Ah, this is the thunderous reception they got from the locals when the hans showed up in Somalia with a bag of trinkets, candies and loans.
Image
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

Top this, yindoo army!

Image
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote:...

Gagan. I can't understand why we Indians insist on killing a great psy ops opportunity by arguing and saying "No the Chinese are winning". No one else does that. And you're not the only one. Maybe that is why we fall for propaganda pics from other countries. We are just no good - and hide under the cover of "neutrality". "honesty" blah blah
+1 shiv

Great source of frustration for me when self-proclaimed jingos prove so bad at being jingos.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Guddu »

This Doklam standoff has had the benefit of psychologically strengthening political resolve in India. As Modi matures on the job, the nehruvian policies with which we have been infected are slowly going away as our confidence increases. Note the two pictures below and make your own conclusions.
Image


and this ...Isabgol chaahiye kya Image
Last edited by Guddu on 20 Aug 2017 23:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Y I Patel »

A blow by blow analysis of the video misses the biggest signal of the video: while everything else might be ambiguous, it is clear that the video was taken by an Indian soldier uphill and parallel to the scene where the confrontation took place. It would be safe to assume that the soldier was already there (along with his colleagues) before the confrontation happened, and also that he and his buddies would not be equipped with just smartphones. In other words, the video was filmed from a location ideally suited for an ambush.

This is also borne out by the location of the confrontation - it is a well chosen location where the intruding party has few options except standing their ground at best, or retreating. They could easily be ambushed or outflanked by Indians approaching unobserved from the reverse slope of the finger.

So the real message of the video is not who landed how many blows, but that the Chinese were cornered and left no other option but to retreat. IMHO this is going to be theme of the entire incident in general, but let's watch it play out.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

That makes eminent sense. The cowards came to conduct a surprise dawn raid on the ITBP camp a short distance away (may have intended to break down some buildings etc), but were themselves surprised and surrounded. So in their frustration, which makes total sense to anyone who has dealt with chinese brats, they lashed out with iron roads and stones, but got it back with compound interest.

Another point here is that it does not look like they arrived in a boat: none is evident. I think they came across the land border, so they had to walk/ drag their wounded back a long way. Now the UBCN report (that 10 are still in India seeking asylum) makes total sense. All in all, IA released it because the result was a total rout of the Chinese PLA.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Image


From tweet
https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/899053445469962240

As per same person:
Based on the shadow direction, the fight took place between 7 and 8 am (SunCalc: goo.gl/33jhCA) — consistent with 7:30 am claim.
Interesting fact: there's a huge to-scale version of the disputed area in a small village in #China: goo.gl/qBze8x. H/t @obretix.
Image

Link for the full scale model:

map link
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by AdityaM »

Why do the Chinese have such a large scale model of this?
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by prahaar »

Probably it is their version of the flight simulator to reduce the need for in situ training.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by fanne »

They have many. Northern Kashmir scale model big enough to be visible from not so good satellite
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Fright sim?
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Wonder what would happen if a model of downtown Beijing and particularly Eleven's palace were to become visible on "Google Earth satellite maps" of Khadakvasla. With a few targets painted. The mullah shivullah can probably make that happen in short order.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Y I Patel »

The biggest misconception in the entire Dokalam affair is to assume that the Chinese actually know what they are doing. I believe that they lost their plot when the Indian Army stopped the road construction party. Since they did not have a clue, they relied on their natural instincts to craft a response that relies heavily on bluster and bullying. When that did not work, instead of correcting course, they just doubled down on it.

This intrusion in the Pangong Tso area is yet another example of their ineptness. They sent out a party (and probably others like it) with some kind of wishful thinking that it would unsettle India enough to make it soften the stand on Dokalam. There is, unfortunately, a pretty good analogy to what is happening - think back to the CRPF patrol that went out to Kongka La under similarly strained circumstances. In that case, the exposed and unprepared patrol was ambushed and the Kongka La incident led to an understandable hardening of attitudes on the Indian side. An Indian overreaction to the current Pangong Tso intrusion would have been a turning point in the current stand off leading to a similar spike in tensions, and I am pleased that the Indian ambushing party repelled the intrusion in such a deft and bloodless manner. Although the ground reality is that India will prevail if shooting starts, India's political aims are very limited in this matter and can be achieved much more effectively if a peaceful resolution is achieved.

The danger of escalation continues, though - Jinping's incompetence matches that of Nehru, and there is a high probability that he (Jinping) will paint himself in a corner much like Nehru did. In that case, India will be well served to keep the conflict as limited as possible. Failing that, the best approach would be to target China's weakest link - manpower! The occupying Chinese forces in Tibet are a vital center of gravity and in case of a full-scale war, India's primary war aim should be to maximize the casualties on the Chinese side. That will have a severe domino effect on China's internal politics and set off a chain of events that the Chinese leadership is terrified of.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

wise words I would say
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bishwa »

I checked google earth photos of this area till back to 2004

The area had its square-ish shape even then... so it is not as if it any recent land reclamation or construction was done on it to give it, its current shape

Also the scuffle at Finger Four took place at 6 a.m., and the one at Finger Five at 7.30 a.m as per reports in the Hindu. And this is Finger Four as per most analysis. So this scuffle must have taken place at 6 am.

Something does not add up about the shadow analysis showing this took place between 7 am and 8 am.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bade »

That is useful information with retrospective maps of the same area. The features definitely look quite artificial, but it may have been done a while ago then.

So far all Indian position along the LAC has been defensive barring patrols but they do not camp to claim the ground. It just a show of force to claim it as disputed area. Dokalam being technically Bhutanese side India has not crossed over any borders it claims with China. I do not see how this can precipitate any immediate crisis, till India decides to cross the LAC and go beyond the claim lines.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Mort Walker »

Isn't the ITBP a border security force that is basically the first responder to natural disasters and maintaining law an order at the border? This opposed to regular IA personnel who have a different mission which is to kill the enemy and hold ground?
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Prem »

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/ ... e8fa576b74
The world’s new “superpower” hopes investment in the provinces will convince locals that life under CPC rule is preferable to any breakup. In particular, President Xi Jinping is staking billions on his “One Belt, One Road” policy, aimed at creating a “New Silk Road” to bring trade and prosperity. Nevertheless, the economy is increasingly volatile. Could a 9/11-type terrorist event cause it to implode? Under such circumstances, might the Han Chinese call for their Uighur, Tibetan and Mongol “compatriots” to be cut loose? This is a country famous for turning its back on the outside world.Tellingly, the Kremlin also ordered mass migrations. Stalin sent thousands of native Russians to “modernise” his newly created Soviet Republics, yet following the breakup of the USSR the vast majority quickly returned. Successive leaders tried similar “economic solutions” but the likes of Perestroika and Glasnost proved too little too late.
Will China collapse tomorrow? P
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bishwa »

for all its worth

ITBP men with red banner :-) Posted in DFI

https://www.google.co.in/search?biw=360 ... rEg5FmWmlM:
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Guddu »

The model is obviously small scale, thus for example the base of the L, part of the lake is only about 85 m long. Chinese have built full scale cities which lie empty, so this must be one of those brilliant ideas, where they play war games. Maybe this is to memorize routes to retreat under pressure ?
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

for all its worth

ITBP men with red banner :-) Posted in DFI

https://www.google.co.in/search?biw=360 ... rEg5FmWmlM:
Yay!!

Image
Last edited by ldev on 21 Aug 2017 04:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Guddu »

The link contains a nice picture of border perceptions and am hence posting it. Article itself is old.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/1130426/ ... 829604.jsp
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bade »

Guddu wrote:The model is obviously small scale, thus for example the base of the L, part of the lake is only about 85 m long. Chinese have built full scale cities which lie empty, so this must be one of those brilliant ideas, where they play war games. Maybe this is to memorize routes to retreat under pressure ?
It is because fundamentally Chinese is a pictorial language and they cannot read maps. :rotfl: That might also explain how they get lost finding their side of the LAC border, though it does not explain how they keep holding land without India pushing them around even more.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

shiv
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Bade wrote:The well rounded corners of the rectangular protrusion tells me it has been leveled by the Chinese and must be intended for use as another boat jetty. It must have happened recently and gone unchallenged ?

A shooting war in that sector can remain localized, unlike in the Sikkim area. This is where we need to exercise a more robust version of salami slicing to push the PLA around further west. We can achieve a lot even with not going as far as liberating Tibet, which contains the escalation.
I don't know if you have fired up Google Earth and looked or not, but if you do you will see two things
1. heavy ITPB presence (a camp) very close by (2.4 km to the west)
2. The area east of that "squared peninsula) is an island of disputed territory where both armies patrol despite the Chinese looking "loop" road. Nearest Chinese camps are 20 km east

A Chinese base with jetties exists further east - and less vulnerable to Indian attack
Some details in my video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-CKlBQdWTI
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

AdityaM wrote:Image


From tweet
https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/899053445469962240

As per same person:
Whattay beautiful job!! I wish I had (or could have) done that! I complimented the guy on Twitter
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by manjgu »

a) the video was released by IA to nail thePLA lie that no incident took place and not to prove who has white banner and who has red b) i thought on BR we all bat for truth, objectivity and rationality. even a half wit would know if u stand on north bank of Pangong looking into the lake which side is india and which side is china !! no rocket science. the camera is pointing towards general direction, chushul, merak across the lake!! open a map and decide. btw i spent 3 weeks in merak in 2015.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Y I Patel wrote:The biggest misconception in the entire Dokalam affair is to assume that the Chinese actually know what they are doing.
This possibility cannot be ruled out.

May I point out a personal impression I gained in the last 6-7 years on BRF?

As the Chinese economy and apparent military progress got bigger in the last 6-7 years and they started churning out copies of American ware from stealth planes to carrier ballet by PLAN men - there was an "equal and opposite" spike in American dhoti shivering (or jeans shivering?) and American respect for this new adversary. The Chinese would have loved nothing more than this new American respect for them. And demands that the Chinese be respected as the Americans do started appearing on BRF as lectures given to unwashed desis who mocked the Chinese.

I suspect that the Chinese expected Indians to get cowed down and to keel over. I think they must currently be working overtime on "What next?"
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

manjgu wrote: even a half wit would know if u stand on north bank of Pangong looking into the lake which side is india and which side is china !
But the knowledge of half wits ends there and what goes above the heads of half wits is the perspective of left and right when the eye standing north-west and looking south east, men moving from north east to south east will appear "left to right". And the identity of those men will depend on who was standing there. Fortunately for all half and full wits - the identity of who was left and who was right was revealed by the army. Nothing has been said about "Which side is India" and "Which side is China"
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by manjgu »

unless one assumes that Hans wanna retreat to site of 3 idiots shooting ... and ITBP wants to try to some Haka Noodles
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by fanne »

One of the thing that is obvious is (reading all the 1962 battles), the attacking force has the initiative and will win. In theory you can have a line of 1 million soldier lining up through out the border and the other side just have to come with 1000 soldier and concentrate in one area and overrun you. The 1 million is no good if they are only oriented towards defending your position. We need few strike corps, if that is hard, then many divisions (or brigades) that are oriented towards offense. It is similar to 1965 war, when TSP attacked JK, we opened up in Punjab. Imagine if we poured our forces only in JK to defend it, the outcome of the war could be different. With offensive capability, you also have the other guy unsettled, he has to keep a larger share in reserve for these kinds of eventuality. The offensive force should be capable of maybe working at a brigade level, so maybe instead of 2-3 div in msc (and thus capable of opening three fronts), maybe have 15 brigades, capable of opening 15 offensive fronts. Have 1-2 heavies (a div level), where we want to go deep and capture land, and then these light weight formations capture many shallow features
Last edited by fanne on 21 Aug 2017 07:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by vnms »

I do not know about the rest of the folks on brf, but this half wit is quite happy with the explanation provided by the army.

Regarding seeking the truth, objectivity and rationality, I choose to bat for perception, objectives and nationality.

And I reserve the right to change my mind in the future.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

looks like they had landed by boat in a cove and were intercepted. I am happy with the initial explanation than the analysis paralysis raja harischandra mode.

among the chinese sponsored or mediated psyops plays in recent years to seek peer status in american public perception - which they crave are

- independence day redemption - lots of cheen characters incl the commanding general of the space cannon on the moon, whose niece named "Rice" is a fighter pilot
- gravity, where sandra bullock hops from the destroyed ISS into the tianghe space station to get access to a soyuz escape vehicle.
- the Martian
- Transformers 4

the trend is projecting cheen as a technological peer power and determined/focussed/helpful if given due respect.

the other sinic character of old was the villain in mortal combat :lol:

http://time.com/4649913/china-remaking- ... -industry/
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by manjgu »

surprise has its own plus but in the transparent battlefield of today with all the satellites etc the initiative is not so pronounced as it was in the past..armies just cant start from 0 and launch an attack.. proper stocking, preparation are easily recognised. Pakis did launch a suprise air attack in 1971 but we knew it was coming ...
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:The biggest misconception in the entire Dokalam affair is to assume that the Chinese actually know what they are doing.
This possibility cannot be ruled out.

May I point out a personal impression I gained in the last 6-7 years on BRF?

As the Chinese economy and apparent military progress got bigger in the last 6-7 years and they started churning out copies of American ware from stealth planes to carrier ballet by PLAN men - there was an "equal and opposite" spike in American dhoti shivering (or jeans shivering?) and American respect for this new adversary. The Chinese would have loved nothing more than this new American respect for them. And demands that the Chinese be respected as the Americans do started appearing on BRF as lectures given to unwashed desis who mocked the Chinese.

I suspect that the Chinese expected Indians to get cowed down and to keel over. I think they must currently be working overtime on "What next?"
I do not think that jean shivering is that simple. For Goldman will never make billion if American do not shiver. Trump has opened an inquiry into China stealing 600+ BILLION dollars a year (in various ways) and Goldman would like nothing better than to squash that thread. All these years Goldman won that argument - especially under Obama ($800 million house does come free)(and would have hit new highs under Hillary). Now comes an alt-right who challenged that and has managed to open a new front, much to the chagrin of Goldman. If American does nto shiver, Goldman will never make the billions.

And, Modi seems to have exposed this jean shivering.
Last edited by NRao on 21 Aug 2017 07:53, edited 1 time in total.
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