Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Suraj
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suraj »

Manish_Sharma wrote:While Taiwan isn't ruled by CCP, they also have official line that Arunachal Pradesh belongs to china.
No, and this is an important distinction. Taiwan doesn't claim Arunachal Pradesh. The Kuomintang did, under their view of Taiwan as Republic of China -the legitimate government of all of China (mainland and the island of Taiwan). The KMT is no longer even in power in Taiwan. The ruling Democratic Progressive Party has no such fanciful claims over the mainland, or its territorial borders. They started out as a party favoring democratic process of law (KMT were an authoritarian single party regime for much of its existence), and only later started stressing Taiwan as an independent entity once they had enough critical mass.

The KMT were, and still are, opposed to an independent Taiwanese identity, instead seeing themselves as some government-in-exile of the mainland, a frankly stupid and untenable position. "Taiwan also claims Arunachal Pradesh" is a pointless argument of no more than academic value. As meaningful as Burkina Faso claiming Arunachal Pradesh.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

I have to say fairly good analysis about the Indian army from the descendant of the great Khan above. I have to add a little something.The Indian soldiers who fought in the second world war for the britshits were not fighting for India or doing India any favors. We can fool ourself as much as we want. These soldiers were at best mercenaries and at worst traitors. One can understand that in those times these soldiers had to feed their families but constantly we are fed this garbage how they fought bravely in Europe and middle east and won gallantry awards etc. They did this so british will magnanimously leave India after the war was over.A race that raped yours daughters, killed your sons and than u go fight for their musharaf and we the Indians are told how all this was good for india, how brave these soldiers were.This is one reason I hate that so called mahatama who agreed to this and encouraged the Indian army to go fight on behalf of the british.

If u are going to fight in the interest of your oppressor and he wins the fight do u really think in your sane mind that empire will just leave u alone and give u independance. If u believe this nonsense than U deserve another millenia of slavery.Those soldiers who were encouraged by mahatma and others to go to Europe and fight for the british , should have been instead told to fight the British like Netaji did.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

What would chankya do in this situation? How about this?

India should up the ante and not wait for the chinese to play their next card, which they seem to do at regular intervals. Take the fight to the chinese and embarrass them by asking the Dalai Lama to step up to the plate, be counted and to openly tell his followers in Tibet to revolt if PLA starts a war with India. Openly ask the Tibetan conscripts to rebel.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Y I Patel »

Regarding the role of the Army in crisis situations like this, n^3 makes valid points about the frailty of India's military leadership during '62. My opinion is that their weaknesses were passing, and mainly the result of "their upbringing and experience". Note that India's generals at independence and well into the '60s had enrolled pretty much before the second world war, when the selection of Indian officers was drawn exclusively from brown elites that had proven loyalty to the British. A notable example of this would be India's second COAS, General Himmatsinhji. He was from a royal family in Gujarat, and his principal contribution during WW-II was, drum roll please, investigation of INA. He was, of course, chosen for that not because of his sympathies to the Indian Independence Movement.

The way this translated (and in some subtle and insidious ways still persists) was that a lot of the Generals considered themselves above normal Indians including grubby politicians. A post-Independence general, when deprived of the coveted Commander in Chief title, is known to have sniffed about the need to defer to "Dhoti Prasads" from now on. Think of the era this would have been, and who the Dhoti Prasad being referred to was, to get a sense of what these generals were really about.

That was the "upbringing" part of their world view. Now for inexperience - junior level Indian officers had great experience of jungle, mountain and desert warfare, and the ones who had excelled in battle as junior officers later rose to the highest ranks - notably Manekshaw and PS Bhagat. But only one Indian had operational experience commanding a brigade during WW-II: Thimmaiya. So there were very few with knowledge of how to run the military of an independent country, and that too in a very complicated situation like that of the '50s. One glaring result of this is that the Indian Army spent no effort in training its soldiers in high-altitude or mountain warfare, and wasted considerable effort arguing about the impracticality of confronting PLA rather than coming up with a workable strategy that fit independent India's resources and circumstances. These were also the generals that actually introduced unilaterally a serious alteration in the "Forward Posts" directive originally issued by Nehru. In effect, Nehru had intended it for the western sector, but Thapar or Kaul (we don't know who exactly) caused the same policy to be extended to NEFA which made the whole policy a lot more provocative than even Nehru wanted it to be.

A final point about how the Army leadership should have acted, to reinforce their culpability in the whole 1962 mess: after the war, the Chinese withdrew unilaterally under the condition that neither party would send patrols within 20 kms of the LAC (this was the first time that term was used). Nehru never explicitly accepted the conditions of ceasefire, but the terms were still tacitly followed. Then, the Chinese started baiting India - in 1963, they started sending patrols right up to the LAC in the eastern sector, in direct contravention of their own terms, and the patrols even lingered there for a while. As can be imagined, this caused severe heartburn in India, and there was great pressure on the Army to respond and "kick them out" all over again. The Indian lt-general in charge of 4 Corps at that time was lucky to be there in the first place - he had been passed over for being excessively opinionated and chummy with westerners, and was put in charge of what had become a disgrace posting mainly due to a shortage of qualified LtGens (what with so many senior Maj Gens and above suddenly staring at the end of careers.) The general downright refused to recognize that any incursion had take place. Typically, no one in the political or military leadership had the guts to issue him a direct order regarding this, but intense pressure was built up through insinuation and innuendo. So the general in question now had insubordination and possible fear of Chinese to add to his already tarnished record. But the damn coward stuck to his guns and refused to be baited by the Chinese even at the risk of a dishonourable end to his career. His actions are a major and unknown cause why there was no follow-up of the 1962 type hostilities in the years that followed, when the army and political system was still in total disarray and many in India were terrified of the superhuman PLA.

It must have been his great luck, or maybe India's, that the arrogant, loud mouth, cowardly SOB continued in service and rose to be General and COAS by 1969.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Y I Patel »

Gen Rawat has made some statements on the entire stone-pelter situation that demonstrate a highly sophisticated sensibility of the interplay between military action and political goals. And the teamwork between Indian politicians, diplomats, and military in the current scenario has been nothing short of superlative.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Manish_Sharma »

UlanBatori wrote:Nothing that I have read suggests that ANY of the generals was worth the price of the uniform they were given.
It was traitor krishna menon the army hater alongwith nehru who sabotaged army., When they humiliated General Thimayya and he resigned then there was ho hallaa in parliament, so cunning jerk nehru sent his daughter indira to him. She said "...uncle please my father has sent me to beg you to take back your resignation..."

General Thimayya relented and wrote another letter withdrawing his resignation.

Next day nehru in parliament waived that letter and said "....see why you create such ruckus, now General wants to withdraw his resignation, these army folks are emotional, and you condemn me?"

These father-daughter, alongwith krishna menon sabotaged the leadership.

Now see who They made chief :

https://shwetankspad.com/2016/03/14/loyal-descendants/
But, General Dyer and Michael O’Dwyer (who was subsequently shot by Udham Singh) had admirers in India as well. The prominent name in the list was none other than Dewan Bahadur Kunj Behari Thapar of Lahore. In fact, the Golden Temple management (the predecessor of the SGPC) presented Dyer a Kirpan (sword) and a Siropa (turban) along with Rs. 1.75 Lakhs contributed by Kunj Bihari Thapar, Umar Hayat Khan, Chaudhary Gajjan Singh and Rai Bahadur Lal Chand. (Report).

Thapar’s family was newly wealthy, having made their fortune in trade during the first world war, as commission agents for the colonial British Indian Army. Kunj Behari Thapar did everything necessary to please his colonial masters to keep his hold in the British Indian Army. For loyalty during Jallianwala crisis, Kunj Behari Thapar was awarded the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in 1920
. (Copy of the Edinburgh Gazette).

Kunj Behari Thapar had 3 sons 1) Daya Ram Thapar, 2) Prem Nath Thapar and 3) Pran Nath Thapar and 5 daughters.
Gen. Pran Nath Thapar was the only Indian Army Chief to have lost a war (Against China in 1962). However, on his retirement, Gen. K.S. Thimayya recommended Lt. Gen. S. P. P. Thorat as his successor, was however overruled and Pran Nath Thapar was selected. It’s amazing how Pran Nath Thapar’s role in 1962 debacle is left out of history books. Anyway, he was forced to and resigned in disgrace after the debacle.

General Thapar and Smt. Bimla Thapar had four children, of whom the youngest is the prominent journalist Karan Thapar.
SO IF LEADERSHIP WASN'T SHIVAJI TYPE IT WAS DUE TO CRIMINAL JERK NEHRU.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Interesting. YES!!! That is a huge omission from the history of 1962 - the role of the Top Brass.

Any relation to the Thapar family that runs/ran Thapar Engg College in Patiala, Crompton-Greaves Co., and now "Avanta Group"?

Meanwhile, the famed Protectors of Western Academic Freedom genuflect before Insorent Mite:
The british have always been one step below Pakis in their grand pronouncements. Without the Indian Army to die for the British Empyah, the buggers can't even stand up to the chinese in something as elementary as providing access to academic publications!!
We shall fight! On the beaches!
We shall fight! In the streets!
But we shall Nevah Surrendah! (as long as we have the Indians fighting for us)
And except to the slimy lizards.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Suraj wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:While Taiwan isn't ruled by CCP, they also have official line that Arunachal Pradesh belongs to china.
No, and this is an important distinction. Taiwan doesn't claim Arunachal Pradesh. The Kuomintang did, under their view of Taiwan as Republic of China -the legitimate government of all of China (mainland and the island of Taiwan). The KMT is no longer even in power in Taiwan. The ruling Democratic Progressive Party has no such fanciful claims over the mainland, or its territorial borders. ...
Thanks Suraj I didn't know the difference... Must have read about Kuomintang long back and thought it as Taiwan's position.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

At least half of Taiwan today is totally sold out to the Dlagaon. I don't think Taiwan will last another 20 years - maybe not even 10 - as an independent entity. No war needed, just Finlandization and assimilation.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suraj »

I think Taiwan is a very complex and fluid case, not easily made definite claims about. I know several younger generation Taiwanese first hand. They're avowedly 'Taiwan, not RoC!' types, who post angry facebook posts about "Our country is Taiwan! Not 'Chinese Taipei'" during Rio Olympics . These types strongly back DPP and not KMT. There are many KMT folks among the older generation. DPP is currently hard at work basically doing 'KMT mukt Taiwan' on KMT, seizing their financial assets built up during decades of authoritarian rule. We all like to think of PRC as a diabolical master planner, but as their recent actions show, they are very good at messing up too.

I have in first person attended a Taiwanese-American political fundraiser where you could cut the tension between KMT and DPP types with a knife; I was an 'exotic face' at that dinner, as a Taiwanese lady's date, and spent half the evening listening to her whisper 'and that ABC hates that XYZ because...' And I ran into a small gathering near Lynbrook High (bay area folks will know where that is), where former Taiwan president Ma Ying-jeou's wife (Ma is KMT) was attending a fundraiser. It started off with some terse conversation, which soon descended into outright shoving and punching, before lady Ma's guards ushered her away. This was ~3 years ago.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Manish_Sharma »

UlanBatori wrote:
Any relation to the Thapar family that runs/ran Thapar Engg College in Patiala, Crompton-Greaves Co., and now "Avanta Group"?
I have always suspected them to come from Kunj Behari Thapar clan too but couldn't find anything on google connecting them as cousins of current Thapars etc. ever

If you will read the whole link that I have posted you will find many more eminent worthies, like Khushwant Singh's father Sir Sobha Singh who was only witness against Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev & Rajguru. He was given prime contracts by brishits to construct lots of North block, south block buildings in Lutyens Delhi.

They had marriage relations we other Thapars. In fact whole of tavleen Singh's Dilli Durbaar ii's there.

Romilla thapar is also grand daughter of Kunj Behari Thapar.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

India,s misfortune forever, for 1 saput we have 10 kaputs. Hope it changes in the future.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

Cheen gave so much autonomy to tibet under 17 pt panchsheel the dalai lama had to run off and live in exile all hos life while tibet is under harsh military rule with all revolts crushed

It is stupid in the extreme to consider any arrangement that was made before these betrayals to be valid when the chinese themselves will laugh rudely at it lol

Banditji did not do well.. but his deeds are not set in stone and can and must be reversed one by one. We must raise the cost steeply of chinese occupation of tibet and border violations

For starters we need to officially renounce any acceptance of chinese rights over tibet and call for withdrawal of chinese military from there
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by fanne »

Suresh S wrote:India,s misfortune forever, for 1 saput we have 10 kaputs. Hope it changes in the future.
With due respect you are wrong!! The whole gang is no more than 2000 families (since before independence, they were the 'establishment', rather British plant to control the native and the narrative). They are all over the place, 90% of them hidden or hard to connect the dots type. Some other 2000 families have joined since then - MP/MLAs, neo industrialists, Judges, babus, journalists....

This is what this new govt is trying to overthrow, the unaccountable, elected (Gandhis)/non-elected mai-baaps. These 2000 (+ new 2000) control almost everything, including the dissent. A Talveen Singh/Nalini Sing/Arun Shourie are the dissidents, but belong to the same group. They in the end perpetuate them. There are efforts on the internet to identify the families, scratching some 50 of them. A very common trait in these families are, few generation ago they have married someone outside of India (the Roys, or the Talveens, Gandhis, Abdullahs...)

rgds,
fanne
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

Tibet is a buffer and whoever controls Tibet has the benefit of that huge buffer. China controls Tibet and hence is poised less than 50 kms from Chicken Neck while it's own heartland is far away from India. If India controlled all of Tibet imagine the military benefits of that huge landmass. The Indian heartland would be far away from any immediate danger of conventional attack. Furthermore it would open up opportunities for India in Central Asia. Just look at the map to gauge how huge Tibet is. It is 1.2 million square km, a little more than one third the size of the rest of India at 3.2 million square km. You could test a MT level device there without worrying about causing damage to villages as in Pokharan.

Nehru's romanticized infatuation with all things Communist beginning with his first 1927 trip to the USSR to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution led him to believe that there was a brotherhood of Communists all over the world and that he together with them would stand up to the western "imperialists". And so he gave away everything without getting anything in return from China believing in his naivety that the Chinese would reciprocate. That was the time that India should have taken over the whole of Tibet.

Image
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

Singha wrote:
For starters we need to officially renounce any acceptance of chinese rights over tibet and call for withdrawal of chinese military from there
Totally agree. should have been done like yesterday.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

The difference between Indira Nehru and her father Jawaharlal in terms of war was that the former listened to her generals' advice, while the latter interfered politically. The army still had good men but incompetents and poseurs were appointed. Nehru had no clue about what to do with an army, he did better with Edwina. Nehru, like thousands of desis even today, knew that armies are supposed to fight, but did not know that geography, logistics, equipment and the application of air power appropriately etc are essential factors in an army's ability to fight. "Jao. Unko bhagao. Jaldi" is what he thought he could say to get things done like a landlord ordering his chowkidar to chase urchins who have trespassed on his property.

Mao had fought his way across China and his men had fought Amreekis in Korea. Chou En Lai had assessed Nehru's mental make-up to a T and could probably read that Nehru would not be able to do anything. Let me draw a comparison between Doklam/Pangong and the years preceding 1962. While the actual hot fighting took place in 1962 - Chinese troops were probing and patrolling all over with no resistance. They were all over the place Tawang and the Lohit river-Walong area walking about in Indian territory long before the war, not just Aksai Chin. They knew that there were no defences and they faced no resistance. It's a bit different now - Chinese probes are meeting Indian forces.

The Chinese did years and years of probing and patrolling and knew where they could go and have a commanding view of Indian defences. Both India and China had battle hardened men, but the men who knew the North East were the Assam rifles - which was then a police force. They were better than the army in the mountains and would have done well, The army had fought in the plains - men with experience in North Africa. But Nehru did not know or understand these nuances. he simply announced one day in parliament that he has "ordered his army to evict the Chinese". This straight away ruled out the "police force" Assam rifle and put the army on a task for which they had no equipment or acclimatization ot terrain knowledge.

Of course - depending on how one looks at all this one can call it "excuses", or "post mortem" or "analysis"
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

ldev wrote: If India controlled all of Tibet imagine the military benefits of that huge landmass.
What military benefits would accrue from controlling land situated on average 4500 m high that still supports only 4 million people and food and fuel have to be brought in from elsewhere. This is a genuine question. If you are interested and have not already done so - please see my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wUkKcSBtss
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

I would like to agree with u fanne but India,s history tells me otherwise. There were never more than 60,000 Britshits in India at any time during the so called bloody raj. We outnumbered these bas**rds 1:1000 or more and yet they prevailed for 200 yrs. The only way that could happen was because Millions of Indians willingly or otherwise collaborated with them or did nothing against them.And going back even further during last 1400 yrs ever since the advent of the cult called Islam same story.There is one Maharana Pratap and Rana Sanga and many Maan singhs.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

I do not know how much military benefit we will have but access to central Asia and beyond and development of Tibet,s mineral resources, of course completely with tibet,s permission and primarily for their benefit but will also benefit India. It will cut Hans to size of course.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by VinodTK »

shiv wrote:
ldev wrote: If India controlled all of Tibet imagine the military benefits of that huge landmass.
What military benefits would accrue from controlling land situated on average 4500 m high that still supports only 4 million people and food and fuel have to be brought in from elsewhere. This is a genuine question. If you are interested and have not already done so - please see my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wUkKcSBtss
Extreamly good vedio, it clarifies the Chinese roads situation.
Thanks for your time and effort
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Suresh S wrote:
Singha wrote: For starters we need to officially renounce any acceptance of chinese rights over tibet and call for withdrawal of chinese military from there
Totally agree. should have been done like yesterday.
+100,000
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Hari Seldon »

^ Trust PRC to keep raising the ante until we'll have 'no option but to' do so (i.e. de-recognise TAR). The dreaded TINA factor in politics now makes its entry into Geopolitics as well...
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

shiv wrote:What military benefits would accrue from controlling land situated on average 4500 m high that still supports only 4 million people and food and fuel have to be brought in from elsewhere.
I think that we have become immune to the concept of a buffer, a zone of land or water which provides essential security. India is used to having enemies right at it's doorsteps and so this concept of a safe zone surrounding the country is a novel concept. The US loves the fact that it has oceans on two sides and 2 weak countries to it's north and south. China has Tibet as a buffer with India and it is busy building a buffer in the South China Sea via it's reef and island construction and fortification. These area's act as tripwires so that the homeland itself is secure. And so what if food and water has to be carted all the way there. The Chinese do it because the value of that buffer to them far outweighs the minor costs of sending food and water there for a small population. Other large countries have buffers where they send food and water to small populations far away such as the Canadian north. A country may be lucky and have natural buffers or it may have to fight to create those buffers. China fought and took over Tibet and created that buffer, and today it is fighting with every country in South East Asia and creating the buffer in the South China Sea.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

I definitely agree with this concept of buffer.Tx shiv , nice video.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

Western tibet is better to hold than mountains of east
The area near yunnan is a solid mass of mountains
It will also cut off pok and put pressure in perpetuity on east turkestan

And entire chumbi valley ofcourse
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

Suresh S wrote:I definitely agree with this concept of buffer.Tx shiv , nice video.
A very simple way of looking at this is as follows:

You are living in a house and there are some hoodlums who live in a house down the street. You can choose to barricade your house and sit inside with a crowbar and wait for the hoodlum to try and break into your house. Then fight him off and if you fight him off with some minor damage to yourself and your house and some injuries to the hoodlum who then decides to leave, you congratulate yourself for having put up a great fight.

But the hoodlum controls the street and will come back anytime of his choosing and your house is in danger again.

So you have the better option of arming yourself and going out into the street and control at least the street near your house. That way when the hoodlum comes again, you fight him in the street and keep your house safe. That is the concept of a buffer. That is what India needs and has to create around it. Unfortunately we have allowed hoodlums to squat in our front yard, back yard and veranda. They have to be all thrashed and kicked out and that buffer has to be created.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Suresh S wrote:I do not know how much military benefit we will have but access to central Asia and beyond and development of Tibet,s mineral resources, of course completely with tibet,s permission and primarily for their benefit but will also benefit India. It will cut Hans to size of course.
Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

What happened to Napoleon, but the PLA escaped b4 it happened to them: If Indian jarnails and netas had studied history the PLA would have been finished in 1962: From WikiPurana.
The French invasion of Russia, known in Russia as the Patriotic War of 1812 began on 24 June when Napoleon's Grande Armée crossed the Neman River in an attempt to engage and defeat the Russian army. Napoleon hoped to compel Tsar Alexander I of Russia to cease trading with British merchants through proxies in an effort to pressure the United Kingdom to sue for peace. ..

The Grande Armée was a very large force, numbering 680,000 soldiers (including 300,000 of French departments). ..long marches ..rapidly through Western Russia in an attempt to bring the Russian army to battle, winning a number of minor engagements and a major battle at Smolensk in August. ... Russian army slipped away ..and continued to retreat into Russia, while leaving Smolensk to burn.

As the Russian army fell back, Cossacks were given the task of burning villages, towns and crops... The actions forced the French to rely on a supply system that was incapable of feeding the large army in the field. Starvation and privation compelled French soldiers to leave their camps at night in search of food. These men were frequently confronted by parties of Cossacks, who captured or killed them.

The Russian army retreated into Russia for almost three months. The continual retreat and the loss of lands to the French upset the Russian nobility. They pressured Alexander I to relieve the commander of the Russian army, Field Marshal Barclay. Alexander I complied, appointing an old veteran, Prince Mikhail Kutuzov, to take over command of the army. However, for two more weeks Kutuzov continued to retreat as his predecessor had done.

On 7 September, the French caught up with the Russian army which had dug itself in on hillsides... seventy miles west of Moscow. .. bloodiest single-day action of the Napoleonic Wars until that point, involving more than 250,000 soldiers and resulting in 70,000 casualties. The French gained a tactical victory, but at the cost of 49 general officers and thousands of men. The Russian army was able to extricate itself and withdrew the following day.. Napoleon entered Moscow a week later. .. Russians had evacuated the city, and the city's governor, Count Fyodor Rostopchin, ordered several strategic points in Moscow set ablaze. ..The loss of Moscow did not compel Alexander I to sue for peace, and both sides were aware that Napoleon's position grew worse with each passing day. Napoleon stayed on in Moscow looking to negotiate a peace, his hopes fed in part by a disinformation campaign informing the Emperor of supposed discontent and fading morale in the Russian camp. After staying a month Napoleon moved his army out southwest toward Kaluga, where Kutuzov was encamped with the Russian army.

The French advance toward Kaluga was checked by a Russian corps. .. Despite holding a superior position, the Russians retreated following a sharp engagement, confirming that the Russians would not commit themselves to a pitched battle. His troops exhausted, with few rations, no winter clothing, and his remaining horses in poor condition, Napoleon was forced to retreat. ..In the weeks that followed the Grande Armée starved and suffered from the onset of the Russian Winter. Lack of food and fodder for the horses, hypothermia from the bitter cold and persistent attacks upon isolated troops from Russian peasants and Cossacks led to great losses in men, and a general loss of discipline and cohesion in the army. When the remnants of Napoleon's army crossed the Berezina River in November, only 27,000 effective soldiers remained; the Grand Armée had lost some 380,000 men dead and 100,000 captured...The campaign effectively ended on 14 December 1812, not quite six months from its outset, with the last French troops leaving Russian soil.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

The scene I remember from the movie was Kutuzov lying on his bed. An officer comes in and reports: "The French have started retreating". Kutuzov leaps out of bed and falls to his knees, giving thanks:
Holy Mother of God, Thank You!!
Leaps up and starts giving orders with unprecedented energy, to snipe at the tail end of the retreating army, ambush them at every river bridge, but never to do a head-on battle. 380,000 dead, 100,000 captured.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

Singha wrote:Western tibet is better to hold than mountains of east
The area near yunnan is a solid mass of mountains
It will also cut off pok and put pressure in perpetuity on east turkestan

And entire chumbi valley ofcourse
In the West you are cutting of POK which will be surrounded by India on 3 sides. In the East you are going all the way up to Sichuan Province to the East and Chengdu and Yunnan Province to the South. Instead of India being under pressure via Chicken Neck and Tawang, it will be China and Pakistan which will under pressure. But "Banditji" :D was not a strategist and did not realize all this. Mao and Deng were battle hardened veterans who saw the benefits of controlling Tibet and they swooped in took it over while incredibly charming the hapless Nehru at the same time.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

Yes I have some idea about this area,s geography . The way through Afghanistan I think is better but still pretty difficult but soviet armour was able to roll through tajikistan and into afghanistan so have to be better. But karakorum highway runs very close to tibet through xinjiang and I heard they do not like the chinks too much. so there is a way
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

ldev wrote:
shiv wrote:What military benefits would accrue from controlling land situated on average 4500 m high that still supports only 4 million people and food and fuel have to be brought in from elsewhere.
I think that we have become immune to the concept of a buffer, a zone of land or water which provides essential security. India is used to having enemies right at it's doorsteps and so this concept of a safe zone surrounding the country is a novel concept.
I think that from the military viewpoint too many people think they know enough to pass judgement like Nehru tried to maintain a "forward policy" without knowing what was needed to do it. Buffer zones depend on geography. Wide flat areas serve as buffer zones only if you can hold them in the first place and keep your "forward forces" supplied and in communication with your rear echelons. And if the buffer zones are attacked and overrun - there must be rear areas which are eminently defensible.

The British used three types of buffer zones in India. In the North it was impenetrable mountains except in some places. They had treaties with Nepal to make Nepal a buffer. In the North East was impenetrable jungle with fierce tribes that were neither subjugated nor totally free. In the north west - the the "North west Frontier province" was the buffer zone.

Depending on British finances and strength they maintained a "forward policy" or a "rear/near policy". In the forward policy they controlled the buffer zone and were ready to pull back to the Indus or to the plains of Assam if the buffer zone was occupied.

Independent India lost the buffer zone of NWFP and Baluchistan. Pakistan (Pakistani Punjab) now use that area as buffer zone. In the North east - the thick forests and tribes formed the buffer zone. I think many of us are blind to certain nuances when we howl that there are no roads to our border areas while the Chinese build roads. The fact is - we do have a buffer zone of wild country. Our road needs are to supply our people behind that buffer zone.

Having Tibet as a buffer zone sounds good while looking at a map but geographically we have to cross 5-6000 meter mountains to get to Tibet via passes that are not open all year round and then settle in an area 4500 meters high. Keeping forces in that area supplied all year round from Indian lowlands is not a happy prospect and is doomed to failure
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Suresh S wrote:Yes I have some idea about this area,s geography . The way through Afghanistan I think is better but still pretty difficult but soviet armour was able to roll through tajikistan and into afghanistan so have to be better. But karakorum highway runs very close to tibet through xinjiang and I heard they do not like the chinks too much. so there is a way
The way to Afghanistan used by the Brits was Delhi-Lahore-Peshawar-Afghanistan. Even to the Kargil area - access is relatively gentle slopes from the Pakistan side - but near vertical from India (as it is now)
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

logically Your argument is correct You can not deny this . Ideally no body occupies Tibet and it should be left to tibetans but as we know that is not what it is . If there are only two choices either china occupy it or we occupy it , I say we occupy it. It will not be easy as u explained but I do not know what choice we have , if only we had a nice neighbour but we do not.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ldev »

shiv wrote: Having Tibet as a buffer zone sounds good while looking at a map but geographically we have to cross 5-6000 meter mountains to get to Tibet via passes that are not open all year round and then settle in an area 4500 meters high. Keeping forces in that area supplied all year round from Indian lowlands is not a happy prospect and is doomed to failure
China is going to extend the Lhasa Shigatse train line to Gyirong on the Nepal border with Tibet and then to Kathmandu. When completed it will effectively mean that you can take a train from Beijing to Kathmandu. Lhasa is at an altitude of 3500 meters, Kathmandu is at 1400 meters and before it reaches Lhasa from Beijing that train crosses a pass at an altitude of 5072 meters. The Chinese proposal is for the Lhasa to Kathmandu train to have a speed of 120kmph-160kmph depending on the terrain. So it is possible to supply Tibet from Indian lowlands if there is vision and the ability to execute large engineering projects such as that rail line.

China Nepal Railway
28 June 2017 Last updated at 10:33
The Gyirong Port is located in Gyirong County of Tibet bordering between China and Nepal. It is one of the main foreign channels for Tibet and key joint of South Asia Trade Road. According to reports, the scheduled railway route includes two main sections: Lhasa-Gyirong and Gyirong to Kathmandu in Nepal. More specifically, sections in China consist of Lhasa Shigatse Train, the branch line of Qinghai Tibet Train, which was started in 2010 and was completed in 2014, and Shigatse Gyirong Train, which is in the phase of study and research. As to the further development, the authority of Nepal emphasized the hope to link the three main cities in Nepal, Kathmandu, Pokhara and Chitwan with this international line many times.

News said that the running speed of China Nepal Train will be 120-160 kilometer per hours depending on complicated road conditions in two countries, officers from China estimated. The operation speed of 160 kilometer per hours maybe is achievable in Nepal but rather tough in Tibet area.
Image
1.On May 5 2017, the Investigation Report of Feasibility of China Nepal Railway and The Belt and road China and Nepal Co-building pointed out the urgency of its construction.

2.In the executive meeting on June 2016, China Ministry of Transport and National Development and Reform Commission approved the China Nepal Railway to be a key project and will start its construction during the 13th Five-Year Plan.

3.On May and August 2016, National Railway Administration and China Railway Corporation organized research groups to Tibet to do spot surveys along the whole line respectively. Then the China Railway No.1 Bureau initially identified the rough route of Shigatse to Gyirong section. More details are introduced in the relevant project feasibility study report.

4.On March 2016, China and Nepal signed 10 accords in areas ranging from tourism to trade, including the international railway project.

5.On August 2006, Tibet Autonomous Region President Qiangba Puncog expressed the future plan of Qinghai Tibet way to Shigatse and Nepal when meeting the vice-premier Cardega prasad sharma oli at that time.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

ldev wrote: China is going to extend the Lhasa Shigatse train line to Gyirong on the Nepal border with Tibet and then to Kathmandu. When completed it will effectively mean that you can take a train from Beijing to Kathmandu. Lhasa is at an altitude of 3500 meters, Kathmandu is at 1400 meters and before it reaches Lhasa from Beijing that train crosses a pass at an altitude of 5072 meters. The Chinese proposal is for the Lhasa to Kathmandu train to have a speed of 120kmph-160kmph depending on the terrain. So it is possible to supply Tibet from Indian lowlands if there is vision and the ability to execute large engineering projects such as that rail line.
The main engineering hurdles for the Chinese railway were the mountain range in the east - which they found was too expensive in terms of infra required. So the bypassed the eastern mountains and went north of the mountains to Xining and built a railway line through flat permafrost of Northern Tibet, sinking piles into the permafrost and attempting to keep the permafrost cool by using ammonia filled pipes. This works for now, but it remains to be seen if global warming will cause the bridges to become weak because Tibet permafrost, unlike Siberia and Alaska is "marginal permafrost" prone to melting in the upper layers in summer.

Chinese connections with Nepal will depend on that existing railway line.

Some information in the video below - just see the first 60 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtCb2P_KOgA

India will have to build railways running north through mountains that run in an east-west direction. Up to a point this is feasible in river valleys that run north south. But beyond that - when the incline becomes steep or when the mountain ridgeline that separates the Tibet watershed from the southern watershed is reached - the cost becomes a limiting factor as it was for the Chinese when they considered building a railway direct to Lhasa rather than north via Xining and Golmud
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suresh S »

I have to share one thing . When I was a young man and saw Himalayas for the first time . The bus was in siliguri and we slowly moved out and all of a sudden you see this vertical wall appear out of nowhere on way to darjeeling and u crane your neck to see the mountains for the first time. Boy it is awe inspiring and intimidating.People who have never seen the himalayas will never understand it. From absolutely flat ground in siliguri to straight up into the heavens, imaging.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Suresh S wrote:logically Your argument is correct You can not deny this . Ideally no body occupies Tibet and it should be left to tibetans but as we know that is not what it is . If there are only two choices either china occupy it or we occupy it , I say we occupy it. It will not be easy as u explained but I do not know what choice we have , if only we had a nice neighbour but we do not.
There is a third choice and understanding that despite all the bluster is useful. Tibet is still our neighbour and it is not easy for the Chinese to stay in Tibet, though they do put in a lot of effort. We should make it difficult and costly for them to mess with us.

Here is a summary of Chinese problems in Tibet:
1. Direct roads towards Tibet from eastern China go through mountains and are not open 365 days a year. Chengdu-Lhasa troad journey can take 10 days
2. Railway line skirts the mountains - goes up north to Xining, then runs east to Golmud and then south to Lhasa running on flat permafrost
3. Chinese bridges on permafrost require a lot of maintenance. Permafrost is soil+ice and is temperature dependent. In some areas the temperature in summer has to be maintained low by the use of pipes to inject ammonia. (as an aside I was wondering if someone dumped truckloads of salt near a Tibet pylon - that should melt the ice and destabilize the pylon :mrgreen: )
4. The train is oxygen enriched so that travellers do not get high altitude sickness as the travel on the train. But even so they will have to acclimatize in Lhasa
5. Mao himself ordered all Chinese troops to carry their own food because Tibet cannot grow extra food for a lot of people and the people would become even more hostile if their food was grabbed
6. Even today Tibet is reliant on food and fuel supplies from China and Tibets economy is still not self sufficient
7. Despite having 1300 million people in China - they have only managed to put 1-1.5 million Hans in Tibet because of altitude and food/economy issues

Tibet is no cake walk for China. We just need to make sure that they find it even more difficult. I still think bags of salt placed at the foot of train bridge pylons built on permafrost to salinize the soil will weaken them in the long term.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Why can't we employ a few Tibetan rebels to drop a sackful of salt at the bottom of a Chinese railway bridge pylon built on permafrost every time they pass by. 10-20 sacks of salt under one pylon should lower the freezing point enough to melt the permafrost in summer and make the pylon weak. One weak pylon is enough to collapse a bridge
Last edited by shiv on 22 Aug 2017 09:07, edited 1 time in total.
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