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that will be akin an attack on the scale of a biological or chemical warfare attack...
Well.. I have 2 data 4 u:
1) Surat "Plague".
2) CURRENT Assam floods.
Trouble with a nuke attack is that there is no 10% attack.
But with these things that can be done. Calibrated harassment. Note that they are simply not providing data, and they know that satellites can't see if the gates are being opened and for how long.
Although the headline contains the usual bravado and rhetoric, the article itself suggests that the PLA assumes that the IAF will have air supremacy in the event of a conflict and is trying to blunt the IAF's edge by deploying HQ-16 and HQ-17 AAMs to Tibet.
Wonder what would be the effect of an Indian pre-emptive attack all across Tibet + a thrust into Yunnan. Coordination with Vietnam is a bit difficult to achieve on short notice - oh well, Kunming will have to wait for another day.
Brics summit is coming up Sept 3-5, 64K question will Modi attend ?. If he attends hopefully someone will take pictures of his meeting with She, want to see if his constipation has improved.
What this really means is that India would be calling out such kind of incidents a lot more. The Indian Army fully expects that it would perceive the Chinese as trespassers more often. The Indians have now decreased the bar, when we would see Chinese as entering out land. In a disputed border, we are now drawing the Lakshman Rekha at our maximum claim line. That means Indians are taking the war to China now.
Chinese need a kick in the nuts, and Indian Army is willing to accommodate this need.
Rajesh, I agree.
In one of my earliest posts on the Doka La issue, I said IA had stopped the Chinese in Chinese territory because in the fog of information at that time, I believed that IA had done so within Chumbi Valley ! (It is another matter that I should have said Tibet and not Chinese territory. Let that pass). After Gen. Rawat's statement, I sincerely feel that in future we are likely to be so proactive that my mis-statement would indeed come true.
if there are dams/reservoirs ( like bhakra nangal/ranjit sagar on sutlej) the sudden water surge from china can be controlled and absorbed so as to avoid flooding of Punjab. similarly on Indus ( not sure what projects india is planning/implemented on indus) ...but reservoirs can absorb water surge.
Modiji planning to wear WTP t-shirt?
Sridhar: How do you know that u were not right? My sources tell me that the actual reason for chinese bawling is nothing to do with Doklam, but that PLA has been pushed out of chumbi valley. Apparently had to lay down their own weapons, drop their pants and march out in their spotted knickers, hands held up. Mutiny in PLA ranks in Tibet because political commissars and nepotism-appointed local colonels are demanding that troops rush in to try and retake high ground which would be total suicide. Major loss of face, but iklaute bete not willing to do a "Charge of the Right Bligade".
Amidst the discussion here on the blockade of Melaka (which incidentally carries 37% of Chinese LNG imports, 46% of its gas imports and 59% of oil imports), the following must be considered too as we know that China is actively pursuing this route in the last few years through the Arctic Council. Russian tanker completes Arctic passage without icebreakers
A Russian-owned tanker, built to traverse the frozen waters of the Arctic, completed a journey from Europe to Asia in record time this month, auguring the future of shipping as global warming melts sea ice.
The Christophe de Margerie , a 984-foot tanker built specifically for the journey, became the first ship to complete the Northern Sea Route without the aid of specialised ice-breaking vessels
Navigational dream
The journey was the culmination of a centuries-old navigational dream and of a decade-long plan by President Vladimir Putin of Russia, whose government has indicated it plans to take political and economic advantage of changes to the Arctic’s climate.
“This is a big event in the opening up of the Arctic,” Mr. Putin said of the tanker’s maiden voyage this year.
The ship, transporting liquefied natural gas, completed the trip from Norway to South Korea on August 17 in 19 days, 30% less time than the regular route through the Suez Canal requires, the company said.
Shorter route
Sailors have for centuries sought a navigable Northwest Passage: a shorter, faster route between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans that crosses the Arctic.
Historically, thick ice made the journey impossible. In the last century, specialised ice-breaking vessels made the trip plausible, but prohibitively expensive, and then only during the summer, when the ice was thinnest.
But rapid changes to the climate have altered the region’s ice, and Sovcomflot said in a statement it believed the ship could make the journey “year-round in the difficult ice conditions”.
The ship is named for Christophe de Margerie, former chief executive of the French energy company Total who was killed in a plane crash in Moscow in 2014.
Expensive journey
The first of a planned fleet of 15 similar tankers, the ship has a reinforced steel hull that allows it to break ice up to 4 feet thick.
Fewer than 500 ships have made the journey since the route was first completed in 1906.
The route remains expensive. A report last year by the Copenhagen Business School concluded that trans-Arctic shipping would not become economically viable before 2040.NYT
Buyer resistance in some parts of northern India, Uttar Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Odisha has prompted the parent companies to restrict front-office roles for Chinese expats in the distribution establishments in these markets.
Vivek Zhang, the high-profile Chinese expat who negotiated and signed the Indian Premier League’s title sponsorship deal
Chinese distributors — more than a dozen for Oppo and two dozen for Vivo — would have 3-4 expats in each district of a state, monitoring Indian executives who visit the trade. The Chinese would hire a building in the district headquarters and set up the distribution office and residential quarters for expats.
"The decision-making authority always remained with the expats, even in the districts where there were mostly junior-level staff. However, after the exit of so many Chinese..
While Vivo Mobile India and Oppo Mobiles India are the main holding companies locally monitoring the businesses, the actual operations — right from the import of handsets to local distribution, marketing, sales and aftersales service — are handled by distribution companies, one each for a state or a region. These companies function independently with separate profit and loss accounts, sales targets and budgets
OTOH
A recent report by market tracker CMR India said the smartphone war is now being fought among the Chinese brands in India rather than between the Chinese and Indian brands.
Amid looming crises in its neighbourhood, from the Korean Peninsula to the Doklam Plateau in the Himalayas, China has been beefing up its strategic petroleum reserve (SPR). The sight of huge oil tankers offloading in China’s giant ports should come as no surprise. Earlier in August, the world’s largest active oil tanker, TI Europe, was spotted at China’s giant Ningbo port in the East China Sea. The humongous vessel can ferry 3 million barrels in a single shipment. That is nearly equal to the total daily production of the oil-rich Kuwait.
The TI Europe is among the four largest ships in the world, along with TI Africa, TI Asia, and TI Oceania. All these ultra-large crude carriers have been built by South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering. Incidentally, TI Oceania, which was earlier called Hellespont Fairfax before it was purchased and modified by a Belgian owner, featured in Discovery Channel’s famous television show, Superships .
Ningbo, where TI Europe docked, has been China’s gateway to the world since the days of the Tang dynasty, which flourished between the seventh and 10th centuries. Then called Mingzhou, it was among China’s three major ports, the others being Guangzhou and Yangzhou. Ningbo was destined to emerge as a leading port in the world, when in 2006, it merged with the neighbouring port of the Zhoushan. Within six years, it became the world’s largest port in terms cargo tonnage, upstaging Shanghai for the first time. Today, the multi-purpose deep water port hosts a jaw-dropping 191 berths, which include 39 deep water channels. A separate oil terminal can handle large tankers. Besides, there are dedicated areas that take care of mineral ores and liquid chemicals.
Dependent on energy imports, China’s quest for building SPR capacity is understandable. Chinese fears, born out of geopolitical rivalry, are mainly centred on the Malacca Straits — the channel linking the Indian Ocean and the Pacific — through which vast volumes of global trade flow. Nearly 80% of China’s oil shipments travel through the Indian Ocean or the Strait of Malacca. Any disruption of the two-way movement of tankers and container shipping through this channel to Chinese ports would be catastrophic.
Malacca trap
Unsurprisingly, China has pursued the avoidance of what is called the “Malacca trap”. Its huge West-East pipeline system has been drawing Central Asian gas overland to the shore-based industrial hubs such as Shanghai, Guangzhou and Shenzhen. Ports such as Gwadar in Pakistan and Kyaukpyu in Myanmar have been arguably set up to avoid the tricky Malacca Straits.
There is no definitive word yet on the size of China’s strategic energy reserves. A Reuters report quoting China’s Commerce Ministry said that by the middle of 2016, China had 33.25 million tonnes of crude oil in its SPR inventory. But others, using satellite imagery and big data processing, estimate that the country’s capacity is much larger. The crisis in the Doklam plateau and the possibility of the standoff between Indian and Chinese troops drifting into open conflict has brought China’s energy security into sharp focus. According to some analysts, a China-India conflict could acquire a naval dimension, affecting China’s energy supplies.
“China is playing psychological warfare... but it should realise that even if it defeated India in a war on land, it would be impossible for the PLA navy to break India’s maritime containment,” Antony Wong Dong, a Macau-based military expert, was quoted as saying by the South ChinaMorning Post .
Reuters Top NewsVerified account @Reuters 9m9 minutes ago
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JUST IN: India and China agree to disengagement at Doklam area, close to northeast border - Indian government statement
Doklam: "In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam. During these communications, we were able to express our views and convey our concerns and interests. On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing," the MEA said in a press statement on Twitter.
wasu wrote:Reuters Top NewsVerified account @Reuters 9m9 minutes ago
More
JUST IN: India and China agree to disengagement at Doklam area, close to northeast border - Indian government statement
Doklam: "In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam. During these communications, we were able to express our views and convey our concerns and interests. On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing," the MEA said in a press statement on Twitter.
Yeah, expected since the yellow rice eaters do nothing but blow hot air and the brown rice eaters won't fight unless yellow ones do something more than yell which obviously won't happen. Pakees are right, short rice eaters are not warriors.
But still I fvcking hope not. By not fighting, we give up massive advantages across the front and a guaranteed victory of historic proportions.
By not fighting, we also allowed them to continue with a minimum deterent force in Tibet backed by nothing but hot air. Far cheaper than the high troop and equipment levels we keep at the front.
Last edited by chola on 28 Aug 2017 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
JE Menon wrote:Any possible outcome will be spun as a Chinese victory, even in substantial sections of our own media.
If there is no stoppage of Chinese road construction - then they would be right as well ! Is there any doubt about that?
I certainly hope the MEA clarifies soon.
And its not just about Chinese road construction its about NSG membership, UN council, support for Pakistan, CPEC etc etc. Don't know what kind of bargain the babus have struck but it better be public and show sufficient benefits for India as opposed to the forgone war.
In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam. During these communications, we were able to express our views and convey our concerns and interests. On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing,
MEA statement clearly states that agreement is on the basis of our concerns and interests, which clearly means that our concerns and interest have been taken care of in the agreement.
Last edited by Jits on 28 Aug 2017 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
Good part of this butt kicking episode of lizards was the dirt which came up clearly. India Today, Economic times acting as cheeni mouthpieces and commie parties with cheeni g@nd(u)is left with a massive fake egg on their faces.
this is a massive loss of face for the hans..i hope this buries ghost of 1962 forever... the Hans have understood they have a weak hand and their bluff bluster and gobar times is not going to work. nothing more/less. we should immediately hold a victory parade on Rajpath... with a dead dragon being dragged on the road.!!
wasu wrote:Reuters Top NewsVerified account @Reuters 9m9 minutes ago
More
JUST IN: India and China agree to disengagement at Doklam area, close to northeast border - Indian government statement
Doklam: "In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam. During these communications, we were able to express our views and convey our concerns and interests. On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing," the MEA said in a press statement on Twitter.
Waiting for the Chinese ministry of foreign affairs statement.
Might be that Modi is saying that there is no use of him attending the BRICS summit unless there is mutual withdrawal from both sides.
and Bhutan also needs to be told ( if indeed some wheeling dealing has happened) that if they give this part of territory to the Hans then we will present them a bill of 300 Billion USD for all our efforts in their country. When they finish paying the money..they can do whatever thay wish.
Vague statement by our Ministry of External Affairs.
What is the meaning of “expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing”?
Does it mean a unilateral disengagement of Indian border personnel by withdrawing from the standoff site as the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) has been demanding?
Or does it mean a simultaneous disengagement of Indian and PRC border personnel by withdrawls on the part of both sides as India has been demanding?
Should we Indian citizens be praising the Narendra Modi led BJP controlled NDA Government for standing firm to PRC bullying or cringinging in mortification for the Governments pusillanimity?
I hope the vagueness of our MEA’s statement is not a cover up for pusillanimity Narendra Modi led BJP controlled NDA Government . Looking forward to the political parties sitting in opposition to do the necessary to rule out Governmental pussilanimity.
I guess the above disengagement by the hans has much to do with the upcoming BRICS meeting. It would be a loss of face to the hans if Modi doesn't turn up for the meet.
manjgu wrote:this is a massive loss of face for the hans..i hope this buries ghost of 1962 forever... the Hans have understood they have a weak hand and their bluff bluster and gobar times is not going to work. nothing more/less. we should immediately hold a victory parade on Rajpath... with a dead dragon being dragged on the road.!!
A "lost of face" will bury 1962 forever and Aksai Hind forever? Are we that fvcking shallow? How do you even measure "loss of face"? Rectifying territory lost and repaying in blood should be our final accounting of 1962.
They had handed us a chance to take epic revenge because in this point and time we own overwhelming advantages on the border. And we are going accept "loss of face" as victory? What the hell does that even mean?
Seriously, it is not just a lost opportunity. It could be detrimental to our global position long term because this means Cheen can continue with its strengths of trade and finance.
Chastised by E.U., a Resentful Greece Embraces China’s Cash and Interests
By JASON HOROWITZ and LIZ ALDERMAN
AUGUST 26, 2017
ATHENS — After years of struggling under austerity imposed by European partners and a chilly shoulder from the United States, Greece has embraced the advances of China, its most ardent and geopolitically ambitious suitor.
While Europe was busy squeezing Greece, the Chinese swooped in with bucket-loads of investments that have begun to pay off, not only economically but also by apparently giving China a political foothold in Greece, and by extension, in Europe.
. . .
Among those initiatives, China plans to make the Greek port of Piraeus the “dragon head” of its vast “One Belt, One Road” project, a new Silk Road into Europe.
. . .
China has already used its economic muscle to stamp a major geopolitical footprint in Africa and South America as it scours the globe for natural resources to fuel its economy.
arun wrote:Vague statement by our Ministry of External Affairs.
What is the meaning of “expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site in Doklam has been agreed-to and is ongoing”?
Does it mean a unilateral disengagement of Indian border personnel by withdrawing from the standoff site as the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) has been demanding?
Or does it mean a simultaneous disengagement of Indian and PRC border personnel by withdrawls on the part of both sides as India has been demanding?
Should we Indian citizens be praising the Narendra Modi led BJP controlled NDA Government for standing firm to PRC bullying or cringinging in mortification for the Governments pusillanimity?
I hope the vagueness of our MEA’s statement is not a cover up for pusillanimity Narendra Modi led BJP controlled NDA Government . Looking forward to the political parties sitting in opposition to do the necessary to rule out Governmental pussilanimity.
How can a mutual withdrawal ever be anything but a loss for the Chinese who have been claiming it as Chinese territory even in their official media ( not even as Bhutanese territory)?
How is the fact that a weak, no match country supposedly walked up into Chinese territory and made them mutually withdraw from their own land be sold to their people?
Im curious what other outcome was being expected by folks here (other than dreams of conquering Lhasa etc)?
arun..a) i dont think Indian are so naive under Doval/Modi to unilaterally disengage... please credit them with some sense. The opposition also would make mincemeat of govt if its a unilateral disengagement. b) i dont think its abt BRICS..its about the hard reality of the battle field and their own weaknesses.
sum wrote:
How can a mutual withdrawal ever be anything but a loss for the Chinese who have been claiming it as Chinese territory even in their official media ( not even as Bhutanese territory)?
How is the fact that a weak, no match country supposedly walked up into Chinese territory and made them mutually withdraw from their own land be sold to their people?
Im curious what other outcome was being expected by folks here (other than dreams of conquering Lhasa etc)?
Cheen could sell anything to its people. I see no good coming from this when money and propaganda will make it a chini "victory" no matter what.
Right now, Cheen is in a trillion dollar expansion scheme through OBOR. They are in TSP, they are in Iran, they are in the 'Stans and they are on the edge of Europe.
They need peace for this to work and they handed us an opportunity to make epic war. But we won't fight. Expected but still disappointing.
How can China invite only its bum-chums like Thailand-buying Chinko subs,on its own? Surely It should require the other founder members to mutually agree! If Mr.Modi doesn't go,he could send Pres.Kovind instead.Protocol-wise he's head of state.The Chinkos also know precious little about him and he would be of great intrerest to the other heads attending.Pres. Kovind,with his background from the Organisation,would be an excellent person to safeguard Indian interests at Beijing.XI GIns and his cronies would also be unable to take pot-shots at him as it would look like v.poor behaviour coming from a host.
President Kovind,an international unknown could then sue the opportunity to reiterate India's commitment to BRICS while at the same time reminding the members that for full cooperation and its success,it required civilised behaviour from its members especially from its host,who was being extremely abusive of India and engaged in a land-grabbing attempt of little Bhutan's territory!
This way,correct protocol would be maintained,as Kovind could speak to Pres. Putin, XI Gins ,etc.,on the same level as a head of state. At the same time,protecting Mr.Modi from the slings and arrows of perfidious and odious China!
Russian Ambassador to China: Beijing invites another five countries to BRICS summit
Russian Politics & Diplomacy August 28, 7
The invited countries particularly include Guinea, Mexico, Thailand and Tajikistan, added Russian Ambassador to China Andrei Denisov
BEIJING, August 28. /TASS/. As the host of the upcoming BRICS summit, China has invited another five countries to the event, Russian Ambassador to China Andrei Denisov said on Monday.
According to him, host countries previously invited non-member states to attend such meetings. "This time, China has adopted a global approach and invited five countries from various parts of the world," the Russian ambassador pointed out.
He added that the invited countries particularly include Guinea, Mexico, Thailand and Tajikistan.
The BRICS summit will take place in China’s Xiamen on September 3-5.
BRICS is an informal association of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. The group, founded in June 2006 at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, seeks to ensure sustainable, open and transparent dialogue and cooperation between member states. The first BRICS summit was held in the Russian city of Yekaterinburg in 2009.
Arjun wrote:We don't have sufficient information at this stage to determine which party has suffered the 'loss of face'. The MEA has to provide more details
I don't think there was any doubt about it that it was China which was going to suffer "Loss of face". Even with Chinese version of the standoff, it took them 2 months get India to withdraw its troops.
I really appreciate Han that they are able to save face and limit their damage. The damage in the first instance itself was not foreseen by the Han.
It's a loss of face for India (zero sum game) as this development can be twisted as. We can't match the psyops of Han. But then, losing face is not new to India. So all iz well.
One positive outcome for Eleven is that he never backed down from shrill. It will strengthen his position in the coming CPC politburo meeting.
Last edited by TKiran on 28 Aug 2017 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
manjgu wrote:arun..a) i dont think Indian are so naive under Doval/Modi to unilaterally disengage... please credit them with some sense. The opposition also would make mincemeat of govt if its a unilateral disengagement. b) i dont think its abt BRICS..its about the hard reality of the battle field and their own weaknesses.
"Minutes after India's statement, the Chinese foreign ministry said, while India was withdrawing its troops, they will continue to patrol in the Doklam area"
Wow.. a diplomatic solution worked out even before CPC summit! Contrary to most of our predictions in BRF including mine. While I expected a localized conflict, many expected the issue to fester until CPC summit gets over.
From the MEA statement and that of China, it is clear that:
1. Both sides will withdraw mutually.
2. China will be allowed to send patrols as this is disputed territory and so would be Bhutan.
3. China will not resume road building (this is unstated but understood by the absence of any statement about China building roads).
4. China has been allowed to save its face to some extent as evident by their statement in terms of publicly communicating about this diplomatic solution. This is perhaps a concession India seems to have made compared to its original stand.
This formula allow China to twist the message to their domestic audience to avoid losing face. Even the aam junta in India will not know its significance. However, in the strategic and diplomatic circles and in media (atleast sections of it that are well informed), it would be rightly read as a clear, unambiguous diplomatic victory for India and as India calling China's bluff in an embarrassing manner. China which has been flying high in terms of its "superiority" learnt the limitations of its Sun Tsu strategy when faced against clear headed opponent and this has sent a strong message to all countries in the region including China's munna to our west about China's bluster vs reality.
From Srilanka to Nepal, from Bangladesh to Burma to Vietnam, all the countries in the region will take note and countries that have immediate land or sea border with India will recognize the need to keep in mind India's sensibilities.
One can expect several heads to roll in China for this debacle. Chailman eleven will find enough scape goats.
The above solution was actually suggested in the Forbes article posted in this forum yesterday.
Last edited by schinnas on 28 Aug 2017 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
Arjun wrote:"Minutes after India's statement, the Chinese foreign ministry said, while India was withdrawing its troops, they will continue to patrol in the Doklam area"
Hmm...
Patrolling is not the same as construction. With Doval and Modi... it will always be India first.
We need to give the Chinese a face saver to back off. Who knows we might be in conflict post BRICS or after Eleven comes to power again in November . Military strategy needs to change for India
