Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1550
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SriKumar » 12 Aug 2017 07:36

-deleted-
Last edited by SriKumar on 12 Aug 2017 11:01, edited 4 times in total.

Prem Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2017 07:37

We call people Aunty and Uncle instead of their first names, because to call your elders by their first names is rude in India. Heck, English doesn't even have a word for "Aap", whose equivalent exists in all Indian languages
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 12 Aug 2017 07:43, edited 1 time in total.

Prem Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2017 07:40

Shiv: to tie in your post with that of another poster above. Maybe the lesson China learns from this is that, after a Parakram style mobilization, they will maintain higher troop levels & logistic nodes all along the LAC. This prepares them for a future conflict without being serious disadvantaged

This standoff might be a dream come true for the PLA in terms of increased budgets

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3621
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 12 Aug 2017 07:41

shiv wrote:
pankajs wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-quietly-bringing-in-more-troops-weapon-systems-as-china-continues-its-sabre-rattling/articleshow/60025495.cms

A new possibility (or two) now comes to mind.

China has provoked India to do a Parakram. They will sit on their asses and do nothing for say 6 months. After a while Parakram fatigue will set in and India will de induct troops. In the meanwhile China will gradually build up forces in several areas.

We need to watch out for the appearance of new military camps along the usual areas and signs of mobilization. The Chinese could establish a "new normal" of larger troop presence. However this will also put strain on Chinese logistics and there will have to be improvements in Chinese roads in areas where they are currently not upto scratch.

"Punishment" of India can come later - maybe 6 months or 1 year down the line.

But then again we need to keep building forces slowly and steadily so that if perchance Pakistan becomes a relative non threat, China will face a deadly force from India


Their window for punishing us is closing every day. Many of big ticket military equipment will enter into our services in next few years.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2017 07:41

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/imr- ... 24139.html

the script plays out like 1971 egypt israeli war

india should ensure with 500 pinpricks that PLA is forced to maintain a large presence all along the border and not get away with low cost needling with cheap border guard platoons while pouring in money elsewhere. we are anyways spending a lot of resources on himalayan frontier.

we will have huge needs for more transport helis and aircraft and enlarging & hardening of airbases all over - my long dormant vision of some "Ramstein" and Al Udeid type airbases will come to fruition. naturally guwahati GAU should be the desi Al Udeid being the logistically best developed in NE. the new dedicated freight corridors have to be done on war footing, as also border roads ,

and obviously more SAMs, artillery and armour as well. the SSN program of the navy must come along as also the P75I.

"the sleeping Tiger must awaken and shake the forest" :D
Image

there will naturally be some hardship as some types of china made products will disappear off shelves whether due to being cut at source or public pressure to boycott. for such a large market as ours, other countries will be happy to exploit the opportunity and step in and domestic makers will also do that. i dont think India will implode if xiaomi, oppo and vivo phones get neutered ... sure some sections of youngistan and lounge bar sickulars will whine - let them.

Prem Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2017 07:42

Rudradev: regarding your post about disinformation, this war, if it breaks out, will also be fought in social media. There are enough well trained warriors on our side. Hope the Govt leverages them wisely

vijaykarthik
BRFite
Posts: 1053
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vijaykarthik » 12 Aug 2017 07:57

g.sarkar wrote:Eleven has a dilemma on his hands and a short time of 2-3 months to solve it.
Gautam


XI will start looking like a IX once the war starts. He could likely lose his supremacy in the party (or be severely constrained) if the border skirmish doesn't work out. I can't imagine whether the Chinese are really this stupid when it comes to hitting in the high altitude region currently or is it that there is someone out to really embarrass XI. The Chinese will be ready to do any pagan sacrifices to create a new front in a different region now so media glare goes away... or hope against hope for a very early winter.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33452
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 12 Aug 2017 08:10

Prem Kumar wrote:Shiv: to tie in your post with that of another poster above. Maybe the lesson China learns from this is that, after a Parakram style mobilization, they will maintain higher troop levels & logistic nodes all along the LAC. This prepares them for a future conflict without being serious disadvantaged

This standoff might be a dream come true for the PLA in terms of increased budgets

The problem as I see it (for the Chinese) is lack of resources (food/fuel) available within Tibet, necessitating their shipment from the east or Xinjiang (to an extent). So every extra soldier will mean several tons of perishables and fuel being brought in. Since the Chinese boast about how wealthy they are - let them start doing that. With their intention to reduce the size of the army - this increase in manpower requirement will need to be adjusted in some way, while the logistics issue is not going to get better - given their suppression of Tibetans

So let's see how this goes.

But if we are talking about long term - we look at it from the Indian perspective: The Chinese have
1. Stalled on Masood Azhar
2. Are playing games with NSG
3. Playing mind games in Doklam

They cannot expect any cooperation from India for any of their schemes and can expect every Chinese ship moving in the Indian Ocean to be stopped if they want war.

It is OK to be a bunch of arrogant Mofos as the Chinese behave but if they want conflict we have to give it to them with interest.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21476
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 12 Aug 2017 08:17

India-Bhutan hint to China: On same page on Doklam - ToI
In the midst of the stand-off between Indian and Chinese troops at Doklam tri-junction, India and Bhutan reaffirmed their special relationship during a bilateral meeting between external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj and her Bhutanese counterpart Damcho Dorji in Kathmandu on the sidelines of a meeting of BIMSTEC foreign ministers.

"Time with a close friend and neighbour. The external affairs minister meets with foreign minister of Bhutan Damcho Dorji on the sidelines of BIMSTEC foreign ministers meet," MEA spokesperson Raveesh Kumar tweeted.

Time with a close friend and neighbour. EAM meets with FM of Bhutan Damcho Dorji on sidelines of BIMSTEC Foreign Mi... https://t.co/c3QXQ1lx6g
— Raveesh Kumar (@MEAIndia) 1502437636000


According to sources, the meeting focused on many areas of bilateral relations, including the ongoing Doklam stand-off. The meeting was seen as a message to China that India and Bhutan continue to stay on the same page even as Beijing continues to unleash its tirade. Emerging from the meeting, Dorji told journalists, "We hope the current stand-off in Doklam will be sorted out peacefully. Both sides should be satisfied with the outcome."

g.sarkar
BRFite
Posts: 1331
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Aug 2017 08:24

vijaykarthik wrote:
g.sarkar wrote:Eleven has a dilemma on his hands and a short time of 2-3 months to solve it.
Gautam

XI will start looking like a IX once the war starts. He could likely lose his supremacy in the party (or be severely constrained) if the border skirmish doesn't work out. I can't imagine whether the Chinese are really this stupid when it comes to hitting in the high altitude region currently or is it that there is someone out to really embarrass XI. The Chinese will be ready to do any pagan sacrifices to create a new front in a different region now so media glare goes away... or hope against hope for a very early winter.

When you fall in China you are eliminated or at least sent to the pig farm to shovel pig shit for re-education for a long time. So solly.
Gautam

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2017 08:35

With an image conscious totalitarian system like China, it's the concrete moves that give the message. And right message will shatter that image. For FSU it was defeat in Afghanistan. In China we need to see what it is that will shatter their self image? Hegel says China is a nation with a state. The state shatters they fall apart. Old times it was palace intrigue or Mongol invasions. Now the weakness of CPC exposure will have the impact in my view.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33452
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 12 Aug 2017 08:43

If I may point out something - it is wrong to declare victory without war. the Chinese can create a small incident that will cause temporary trouble and then get the opposition parties in India to howl that Modi's 56 inch chest has been deflated and that he should have "gone to the negotiating table" creating a political setback out of a minor incident and claiming that India has been shamed and punished for its arrogance.

So the arena is still wide open. I suggest go day by day by day

May I also point out that every single news item from more news portals that I can name are more interested in eyeballs/hits than news. It is important to manufacture news. But we seem to fall for every new report. they are new reports, not news reports. We curse NDTV here but we also hold Doordarshan in contempt. Ultimately if there is going to be something serious it will appear on Doordarshan.

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1295
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 12 Aug 2017 11:10

ramana wrote:With an image conscious totalitarian system like China, it's the concrete moves that give the message. And right message will shatter that image. For FSU it was defeat in Afghanistan. In China we need to see what it is that will shatter their self image? Hegel says China is a nation with a state. The state shatters they fall apart. Old times it was palace intrigue or Mongol invasions. Now the weakness of CPC exposure will have the impact in my view.


All correct, but the problem if you are Chinese it is the TINA problem (There Is No Alternative).....
That said... A diminished commie China is better than any alternative...
Why deal with an unknown democratized or worse China that is hell bent on revenge... better to go for the long game here...

Militarily China is in a lose-lose - start a war and win - they lose... start a war and lose - they lose
India has nothing to lose - win or lose - options become better and clearer! :mrgreen:
True chankiyan move by Invincible "main schemer" Dove! :evil:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2017 11:20

a short list of the probable units now mobilizing and going for acclamatization:


// reported in fbook/twitter headed for central sector
Headquarters, Indian Army New Delhi
50th Independent Parachute Brigade

-- eastern sector---

//a subset of - some will remain deployed for CT in nagaland and manipur
Eastern Command, Kolkata, West Bengal - Fort william kolkata?
23rd Infantry Division - Ranchi

III Corps - Dimapur, Nagaland
2nd Mountain Division - Dibrugarh
57th Mountain Division - Leimakhong
56th Mountain Division - Zakhama

IV Corps - Tezpur, Assam
71st Mountain Division - Missamari -> near dibrugarh i think
5th Mountain Division - Bomdila -> north of tezpur on the route to Se la pass and tawang
21st Mountain Division - Rangia -> 40km NE of guwahati

XXXIII Corps - Siliguri, West Bengal
17th Mountain Division - Gangtok
20th Mountain Division - Binnaguri -> this is in north bengal on railway line
27th Mountain Division - Kalimpong

--- central sector---
I Corps, headquartered at Mathura, Uttar Pradesh
4th Infantry Division headquartered at Allahabad
6th Mountain Division headquartered at Bareilly

--- northern sector ie ladakh ---
Northern Command, Udhampur, Jammu and Kashmir -

XIV Corps, headquartered at Leh, Jammu and Kashmir
3rd Infantry Division headquartered at Leh
8th Mountain Division headquartered at Dras

+Assam rifles +SSB +para SF units +SG

net comes to around 14 divisions + SF units + further indep artillery brigades tacked on from other formations

probable artillery regiments detached from their parent divisions in central and west india 40,41,42 (ambala, jaipur, pune), including the missile regiments (both ballistic dhanush, prithvi, agni1 , pinaka, smerch, grads and brahmos) - these are heavy formations with their inbuilt logistical chain, radars, AAD units, satcoms....they move by trains into theater mostly.

a zommable map of IAF Bases which is a bit old because newly uprated ones like chabua(dibrugarh) are not really shown. still makes it clear within 300km radius from clusters of bases, the likely scenes of conflict

our plains infantry divisions tend to be larger than russian or chinese divs, but smaller than american divs(in expeditionary mode). I dont know about our mountain divs. mountains soak up people like anything as many a invader has found in AfPak.

http://www.scramble.nl/orbats/india

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17219
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 12:17

We should steadily move our reserves and essential logistic supplies from the south northwards in graded deployments so that when the balloon goes up we should be able to reinforce areas affected.XI GIns in order not to lose face has to do something either before or after the party congress,before may be risky if we bloody his nose as after with his enhanced grip on power better suited as winter is coming.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2017 12:21

BRICS summit in china is on Sept3 - ie 20 days out with Namo scheduled to visit.

will they strike out while he is visiting as they did when Xi visited ?

I think they wanted to push india back before Sept 3 to humiliate him and make him seem a minor vassal come to pay homage to the Dragon lord.

as its stands, the dragon lord will be exposed as naked in the great hall if they do not get a victory by Sept3. majboor, lachaar, forced to shake hands and smile in a constipated way with he man he tried to destroy...

Image

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Marten » 12 Aug 2017 12:24

I don't think NaMo will visit PRC if hostilities have begun. They will wait until the day he's supposed to leave. And they will try to block his communication channels to make him look dumb and powerless.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2017 12:36

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 3h3 hours ago

Just a few months ago they flew Tu-154Rs over Barahoti.

The Chinese will likely use cruise missiles in a conflict.They have flown several topography mapping flights using SAR equipped aircraft.

And those cruise missiles might just be equipped with EMP warheads. Although this is just speculation.

Also, their rocket artillery will not be particularly effective against well-made Indian bunkers.

Chinese cruise missiles will be used for very specific targets, not for general bombardment.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17219
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 12:36

Some wargaming is needed to see what the outcome would be if the Chinese switch their focus on joining with the Pakis to wrest J&K in a pincer attack. There is no alternative for India other than turning J&K into a veritable "fortress",with chains of mil cantts. strategically located to deter any micshief from either or both sides. These camps/settlements,should be larger enough to house a sizeable population of Pandits who would be steadily resettle din J&K.All Kashmiris suspected of complicity in pro-Pak/terror activities,should be arrested,deported from the state and incarcerated in the A&N islands,preferably next to the most violent of the indigenous inhabitants! Kashmiris found guilt of such crimes should never be allowed to return to the state.

The time is also ripe for India to conduct naval exercises in the ICS with friendly littoral nations. It will show China that India has multiple ways of skinning the dragon and asymmetric warfare devices to counter any mischief that Beijing may be contemplating.

Namo should at the last moment decide to boycott BRICS and send Sushama instead with a strong message to the BRICS leaders of Chinese aggression that is unacceptable to India. India must demand that China be expelled from BRICS if it goes to war with India.It's past time for Russia to realise that the Chinese bull in the BRICS shop will destroy it and all Czar Putin's efforts to put Humpty-Dumpty BRICS back together again will be useless.SS,Sub-Swamy should be sent to Russia,S.Africa and Brasil before the summit to express India's grave concerns about the Chinese war-mongering and the megalomaniacal ambitions of XI Gins.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60263
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2017 12:38

Image

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 13:16

Philip wrote:Some wargaming is needed to see what the outcome would be if the Chinese switch their focus on joining with the Pakis to wrest J&K in a pincer attack. There is no alternative for India other than turning J&K into a veritable "fortress",with chains of mil cantts. strategically located to deter any micshief from either or both sides.
Don't we have enough deployment to deter the current force structure on either sides of our border?

Namo should at the last moment decide to boycott BRICS and send Sushama instead with a strong message to the BRICS leaders of Chinese aggression that is unacceptable to India. India must demand that China be expelled from BRICS if it goes to war with India.It's past time for Russia to realise that the Chinese bull in the BRICS shop will destroy it and all Czar Putin's efforts to put Humpty-Dumpty BRICS back together again will be useless.SS,Sub-Swamy should be sent to Russia,S.Africa and Brasil before the summit to express India's grave concerns about the Chinese war-mongering and the megalomaniacal ambitions of XI Gins.
Lets assume for a moment that India/China go to war and India asks other BRICS nation to choose between the two, what is the likely outcome of such a demand?

Look at the assumption being made here. Russia does not understand its own self-interest and it needs India's advice! Same with SA and Brazil. That is not to say that we should not share our concerns with other powers on the current situation but to demand expulsion? Such a more is more than likely to rebound on us.

In case folks forget, Modi has assured China/Xi of India's full co-operation in making the upcoming BRICS summit a success. Modi should attend the BRICS summit even as the things stand now. There is no shooting as of today. If the situation changes on the ground then obviously GOI will adjust its stand accordingly.
Last edited by pankajs on 12 Aug 2017 13:17, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 464
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 12 Aug 2017 13:17

shiv wrote:The problem as I see it (for the Chinese) is lack of resources (food/fuel) available within Tibet, necessitating their shipment from the east or Xinjiang (to an extent).


I was watching some youtube videos of Indians visiting Mansarovor and amazed to see how desolate and flat the plateau is.

One thing that stuck is that the Nepalese guide carry food and kitchen with them in a truck for the tourists on the way to kailash. This is suppose to be a tourist visited by probably thousands of Indians every year and yet there is not even enough hotels for food!

nam
BRFite
Posts: 464
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 12 Aug 2017 13:22

Marten wrote:I don't think NaMo will visit PRC if hostilities have begun. They will wait until the day he's supposed to leave. And they will try to block his communication channels to make him look dumb and powerless.


If the Chinese attack before the summit, it is actually a good thing.

We need to light up the entire LAC and make sure the Chini face heavy causalities. Not in our interest to keep the fighting going on for long.

So Namo can land in Chinese with a statesman like ceasefire offer once we have pounded the PLA hard.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 13:29

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 031588.cms
Doklam: How Chinese state media spreads lies on Bhutanese position
On June 29, the Bhutanese government stated categorically in a press release that the construction of the road in the Doklam area by the Chinese military is inside Bhutanese territory.
.....
Global Times editors can easily go to the Bhutanese government website and read the official statement. But that's not how propaganda works.

Since no one will buy the Chinese propaganda outside China, the editorial might be meant to keep the Chinese public in dark about the real situation.

It is Indian media that has helped spread Chinese lies in India at least. They have carried the lies verbatim and prominently while not highlighting the Bhutanese position or adding a line at the end. Rather all such news reports should have started with the last Bhutanese position first and then gone into the Chinese lies at the same time highlighting the gap even if they did not want to call it a lie outright.

This is the only article that I have read that follows that format.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 464
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 12 Aug 2017 13:31

For those who feel Chinese BM & CM will disable us..

US & it's friends have carried out 8000 airstrikes on a rag tag militia called ISIL. Syrians and Russians hundreds more. On a flat perfect for airstrike terrain.

The lot is still undefeated.

We will having more than 12 divisions in world highest & largest mountain ranges, with forests. The Chinis better have more than 8000 CM/BM and better recon capability than Unkil.

In three years that would take care of 3-4 divisions. What about remaining 8 divisions? :lol:

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17219
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 13:37

The arrogant threats to India,talk of giving us another "lesson" war will come,etc.etc.,are sufficient reasons for Mr.Modi to boycott the BRICS summit.India will literally be the "elephant in the room" and China will be pulled up for its aggro the reason why India is absent.WE have been very quiet and dignified from our side ,with all the cheap rhetoric coming from the Chinese side. You do not disrespect a nation and expect it to attend your poisoned banquet. I seriously fear for Mr.Modi's safety at this time if he visits China.Remember Tashkent?
There is nothing wrong in India sending Sushmaji as FM.It isn't always possible for every world leader to be present at every summit.
Mr.Modi's assurance was based upon respect and courtesy from the PRC not the abuse that we've been getting from the sh*towms of Beijing.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 13:41

You maintain force position on the ground for a fight and attend the summit. That to me conveys that we are not intimidated by all the psywars. It is a mark of a confident nation.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 13:44

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... rt/805316/
Sikkim standoff: Army puts Arunachal Pradesh unit on high alert
The sources also highlighted that these measures are not in connection to the military build-up of China in Tibet which would be a threat to India. It has also been learnt that there was no major movement of Chinese military noticed by Indian side as off now.
...
Even in Ladakh, which is another area where the two countries share a disputed border, no movement of the Army has been observed.
...
The move is aimed that restricting convoys of military trucks used for this movement which might be misunderstood by the neighbouring country as an attempt to escalate. Indian Express also stated that the troops, moreover, have not yet been moved to higher altitudes, above 9, 000 feet.
...
The artillery regiments have been one of the major groups that have been asked to move forward by nearly 70-80 km. Usually, these units are located around 150 km from the China border. The change in position of Indian soldiers and stores have been necessitated by the variation in infrastructure on both India and China’s side.

No ramp up of troops on the Chinese side means that either there is no war prospects or they might launch some sort of a missile strike. Fighter/Bomber attack does not look feasible.

But note that force and equipment are both dispersed along the border and staggered behind it. It will take much more than a mini-blitz to inflict any real damage. The Chinese might launch a few missiles and claim victory.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15791
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 12 Aug 2017 13:55

Marten wrote:I don't think NaMo will visit PRC if hostilities have begun. They will wait until the day he's supposed to leave. And they will try to block his communication channels to make him look dumb and powerless.


under the circumstances, Modi should not visit PRC for the BRICS.

For him to be caught in PRC, if hostilities do break out, is something like a decapitating strike He will take time to get back home from PRC and things can move very quickly in these sort of scenarios.

The chances of the hans acting up during the summit are rather high given their earlier playbook and their fondness for the dramatic/theatrical, make the enemy lose face type of provocations.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21476
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 12 Aug 2017 13:56

Away from the borders, India keen to run Sri Lanka airport - Meera Srinivasan, The Hindu
India has expressed interest to operate Sri Lanka’s second international airport situated in Mattala, about 40 km from the southern town of Hambantota, where China has majority stake in a strategic port it built.

The Sri Lankan government earlier this week cleared Civil Aviation Minister Nimal Siripala de Silva’s request for a committee to study the Indian government’s proposal. India proposes to “operate, manage, maintain and develop” the airport through a joint venture, holding 70% of the equity for 40 years. According to the Minister’s Cabinet paper, India is to invest $205 million in the venture, while Sri Lanka would pitch in the balance $88 million.

The development comes less than a fortnight after Sri Lanka signed a $1.1 billion deal with China, giving the state-run China Merchants Port Holdings a 70% stake in a joint venture to run the port. Additionally, Colombo also roped in China to help develop an industrial zone in the adjoining land, spanning some 15,000 acres.


Chinese loans

Built in 2010 by the government of former President Mahinda Rajapaksa with Chinese loans, the port was deemed commercially unviable by his successor government, which decided to sell a majority stake to service part of the $8-billion debt Sri Lanka owes China. Beijing sees the port as a useful link in its ambitious One Belt One Road initiative.

Amid New Delhi and Washington’s known apprehension over the Hambantota agreement — given the town’s strategic location on the island’s southern coast — Colombo tweaked the port deal last month and said no foreign naval ship could call at the port without prior clearance. With India expressing interest to run the Mattala Rajapaksa International Airport (MRIA) nearby, Hambantota appears poised to become a hub of rival strategic interests in the Indian Ocean region.

Financial strain

As in the case of the port, it was Mr. Rajapaksa who built the airport with a $190 million loan from the Exim Bank of China. Opened in 2013, the airport has proved a major financial strain, with barely two daily flights. As operational losses persisted, Sri Lanka in December 2016 sought expressions of interest to operate the airport through a public-private partnership. The government received a total of eight proposals, but the recent Cabinet committee has been asked to evaluate India’s proposal alone.

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 223
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 12 Aug 2017 13:59

pankajs wrote:You maintain force position on the ground for a fight and attend the summit. That to me conveys that we are not intimidated by all the psywars. It is a mark of a confident nation.


I don't trust China and especially Xi to protect Modi (Who may I point out has the largest democratic mandate (300 million folks) in the history of planet earth) . As the events evolve there is a non negligible chance wherein China may decapitate Indian leadership in Beijing and press their luck that India's morale may wither and India will collapse into infighting making it easy for China to swallow large chunks.

We have to learn from the lessons from the assassinations of Hemu/Prithviraj/Subhash/Sastry.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 866
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2017 14:02

nam wrote:For those who feel Chinese BM & CM will disable us..

US & it's friends have carried out 8000 airstrikes on a rag tag militia called ISIL. Syrians and Russians hundreds more. On a flat perfect for airstrike terrain.

The lot is still undefeated.

We will having more than 12 divisions in world highest & largest mountain ranges, with forests. The Chinis better have more than 8000 CM/BM and better recon capability than Unkil.

In three years that would take care of 3-4 divisions. What about remaining 8 divisions? :lol:


+1.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17219
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 14:03

Expect the Chinese to strike where we least expect it,element of surprise,some territory "stolen",making it difficult for us to swiftly recover ,intl. pressure mounted for a ceasefire,etc XI GIns would then claim that India has been taught a "lesson" and lost again.Should that eventuality happen,a Chin attack,I would strongly recommend naval strikes against Chinese assets/vessels in the IOR.Sinking Chinese merchantmen in the Malacca Straits,even in the Indo-China Sea by our subs.A raid on Djibouti not ruled out too! That will send a signal lesson to Afrian leaders on Chinese handouts.Any Chinese "junk",bumboat or man-o-war is fair game. "All's fair in love and war" and we aren't intending to do the Chinese any favours.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 14:07

tandav wrote:
pankajs wrote:You maintain force position on the ground for a fight and attend the summit. That to me conveys that we are not intimidated by all the psywars. It is a mark of a confident nation.


I don't trust China and especially Xi to protect Modi (Who may I point out has the largest democratic mandate (300 million folks) in the history of planet earth) . As the events evolve there is a non negligible chance wherein China may decapitate Indian leadership in Beijing and press their luck that India's morale may wither and India will collapse into infighting making it easy for China to swallow large chunks.

We have to learn from the lessons from the assassinations of Hemu/Prithviraj/Subhash/Sastry.

Modi did travel to Lahore where we have pretty much the same situation. Did he not accept the hospitality there? He has visited Russia/USSR under whose care Sastry died.

Soon we will be boycotting other meeting and others will start boycotting India. Most of the breakthrough diplomacy is often conducted face to face. Sometimes matters are too sensitive to be conducted via diplomatic messages, over secure phone or even though special reps. That is the reason why leaders meet otherwise diplomacy would have been conducted by ambassadors solely.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 12 Aug 2017 14:25

Singha wrote:a short list of the probable units now mobilizing and going for acclamatization:


--- northern sector ie ladakh ---
Northern Command, Udhampur, Jammu and Kashmir -

XIV Corps, headquartered at Leh, Jammu and Kashmir
3rd Infantry Division headquartered at Leh
8th Mountain Division headquartered at Dras


I would assume we would also be deploying part of 9th Corps in Yol (Himachal) which has 39th Infantry Div in Yol. The corps can also deploy
parts of 2 mountain divisions and possibly an armored brigades normally deployed in the Jammu/Pathankot area.

g.sarkar
BRFite
Posts: 1331
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Aug 2017 14:28

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/indi ... 170810.htm
India-China stand-off: The truth from the Dragon's mouth
August 10, 2017 12:05 IST
A new book reproduces original Chinese maps that contradict Chinese propaganda.
The book reveals Chinese intelligence admissions that Beijing never maintained any army base, customs office or other government function in the disputed area until 1983. Claude Arpi digs deeper.
On August 1, Xi Jinping, general secretary of the Communist Party of China, chairman of the Central Military Commission and president of the People's Republic of China, presided over a grand function to celebrate the 90th founding anniversary of the People's Liberation Army, PLA.
From the rostrum of the Great Hall of People, he solemnly affirmed: 'The Chinese people love peace. We will never seek aggression or expansion, but we have the confidence to defeat all invasions. We will never allow any people, organization or political party to split any part of Chinese territory from the country at any time, in any form.'
The message was probably for India.
He urged the PLA to focus on war preparedness and forge an elite and powerful force that 'is always ready for the fight, capable of combat and sure to win.'
'All thoughts must be put on combat, and all work should focus on combat so the military can assemble, charge forward and win any time,' he said.
Meanwhile, the standoff continues on the ridge near the tri-junction of Tibet-Bhutan and Sikkim; for nearly two months, Indian and Chinese soldiers have faced-off here.
A day after Xi's speech, the Chinese government released a note titled: The Facts and China's Position Concerning the Indian Border Troops' Crossing of the China-India Boundary in the Sikkim Sector into the Chinese Territory.
There was nothing new in the note though most surprisingly, Beijing has ignored the Bhutanese and Indian notes released on June 29 and 30 respectively. It did not answer Thimphu's and Delhi's arguments.
However, the ministry of foreign affairs spokesperson in Beijing continued to insist on the 'unequal' treaty of 1890 (signed without the knowledge of the Tibetans), forgetting other agreements of 1895, 1904, 1908 and more importantly the Simla Convention of 1914, to which China had participated during several months.
In this context, it is interesting to look at a book, containing Chinese Intelligence maps, which was recently published.
Written by Ben Keiler (probably a nom de plume), it is titled Spying Against India (Chinese Military Intelligence from 1962 to 2012) Volume 1 and available on Amazon Kindle (external link).
Though it is difficult to verify the veracity of the content, it complements a map that's been circulating on Bhutanese Web sites.
A chapter entitled: The Western Territories of Bhutan explains that the above map is a copy of a Top Secret Chinese Intelligence map.
The copy was probably published to hide the embarrassing fact (for China) that Beijing knew that there were Indian and Bhutanese camps inside the area, which is today so vociferously claimed by China.
The book Spying Against India reproduces the original maps, along with the translation of the accompanying texts and provides its own comments.
The text on this map translates to:
'Luling (also called Ru-ling) area is located on southeast of the Rinchengang town, in the lower part of the Dro-mo (Lower Chumbi Valley).'
'The area includes some of the small rivers in the east of Dromo Machu, Charthang river and Luling river.'
'The size of the area is around 340 sq km, and there are more than 40 grasslands (pastures).'
'The source (of income) comes from the products of the forest; it is pretty marvelous.'
'According to some historical documents, before 1843, China put border stone pillars on the hill of Ha-la, which is the source of the Luling River.' (My note: Nobody has ever heard of these 'pillars'). 'The western part of the Ha-la Mountain's range was in the past the pastoral area of the nomads of the Dro-mo (Chumbi).' 'In 1954, the Bhutanese army permanently settled at Charthang for the whole year. There were around 100 troops occupying the area.''In 1960, the Bhutanese soldiers came again and set up an observation post at Ha-rar with more than 20 soldiers. There were sent from the pasture ground of Charthang.' 'In 1973, the people of the Dro-mo (Chumbi) restored their control over the border area and managed to send their animals grazing like before in the upland region of Lang-ma.' 'Moreover, in 1975, we (China) established a forest park in the Langma's upland.'
'In 1983, we (China) set up a civil administration.' 'Now, the soldiers and nomads of Bhutan do not enter the lower part of Lang-ma's upland grassland by crossing the Phu-tren pass as before.'This particular Chinese Intelligence map provides an overview of the disputed areas in Western Bhutan with textual 'classified' explanations. The map is said to have been compiled by Chinese intelligence some 30 years ago.
The original maps with the positions of the Bhutanese and Indian armies were obviously not published in China, as they contradict Beijing's version of the historical background of the present standoff with India near the trijunction. The above map provides the details of the previous map.
The present standoff between the PLA and Indian Army is taking place in the southern part of the map.
......

Gautam

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1677
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby eklavya » 12 Aug 2017 14:34

pankajs wrote: Rather all such news reports should have started with the last Bhutanese position first and then gone into the Chinese lies.


Very good point. Is it possible for the Forum Admins to post the following on top of every page of this thread. Please can social media users spread it on social media.

Press Release: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Royal Government of Bhutan

Press Release
June 29, 2017

In view of the many queries raised recently in the media regarding the Bhutan – China boundary in the Doklam area the Ministry of Foreign Affairs would like to convey the following:

On 16th June 2017, the Chinese Army started constructing a motorable road from Dokola in the Doklam area towards the Bhutan Army camp at Zompelri. Boundary talks are ongoing between Bhutan and China and we have written agreements of 1988 and 1998 stating that the two sides agree to maintain peace and tranquility in their border areas pending a final settlement on the boundary question, and to maintain status quo on the boundary as before March 1959. The agreements also state that the two sides will refrain from taking unilateral action, or use of force, to change the status quo of the boundary.

Bhutan has conveyed to the Chinese side, both on the ground and through the diplomatic channel, that the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory is a direct violation of the agreements and affects the process of demarcating the boundary between our two countries. Bhutan hopes that the status quo in the Doklam area will be maintained as before 16 June 2017.

Amoghvarsha
BRFite
Posts: 226
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 12:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 12 Aug 2017 14:37

Marten wrote:I don't think NaMo will visit PRC if hostilities have begun. They will wait until the day he's supposed to leave. And they will try to block his communication channels to make him look dumb and powerless.


What if they hold him hostage?I will put nothing below the chincoms.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1677
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby eklavya » 12 Aug 2017 14:39

If they hold our PM hostage or harm him in any way, we will nuke China.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 12 Aug 2017 14:46

After that will any country head travel to China? If Indian PM can't be safe in China who will be?


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests