Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10742
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Gagan » 13 Aug 2017 07:43

Don't listen to Gobar Times. They are a bunch of Cheeni Dork Media. They will get the Chinese nation in trouble with their boastful reporting.
They have caused the Chinese public to have a wrong impression of things by their false bravardo and this can only mean bad news for the Chinese leadership.

It paints the leadership into a corner.

Gobar Times and their ilk have done a great disservice to the Chinese leadership, by their reporting on Doklam and North Korea. In both situations, they have completely missed the magnitude of the opposition that stands opposite the Chinese nation. This is what happens if media is immature and propagandist in nature. The fools don't have any sense of nuance - the only thing they know, is "Crush the enemy" and several versions of it.

Here China faces unwinnable odds against India, in the east, they have a bevy of navies ganging up lead by the US.

Gobar times is still declaring that soon they will "Crush the damn imperialists" :rotfl:

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21886
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Aug 2017 07:50

Doklam standoff: China playing out its ‘Three Warfares’ strategy against India - Indrani Bagchi, ToI
Is China playing out its 'Three Warfares' strategy against India? Indian strategists who are involved with China in the current Doklam crisis believe China has now fully operationalized this concept and is applying it to the Doklam crisis.

The Three Warfares

The provenance of the 'Three Warfares' is not fully established. But according to sources, in 2003, China's Central Military Commission (CMC) approved the guiding concepts for "information operations for the PLA, also known as "Three Warfares" (san zhong zhanfa). It was reinforced in 2010. Comprising public opinion/media warfare, psychological warfare and legal warfare, the Three Warfares have been critical components of China's strategic approach in the South China Sea+ and beyond. {In the Indo-China Sea conflict, the 3W concept has miserably flopped} It is now being applied in the Indian context.

China's 'Three Warfares' against the Phillipines


In 2016, this concept was at work after the UNCLOS tribunal ruled against China in a comprehensive verdict dismissing China's claims in the South China Sea.+ Despite the fact that the Philippines achieved a major international victory against the depredations of a more powerful but more aggressive neighbour, China, with its application of the Three Warfares, was able to successfully co-opt Rodrigo Duterte (Phillipines President) to its side. One year later, China has emerged victorious. Nobody mentions the UNCLOS ruling, and the Philippines has submitted to Beijing's superior power {Yes, with just a 1960s-type Cutter donated by the US Coast Guard as its most major asset, the Philippines has absolutely no chance against even a flotilla of Chinese fishing trawlers. That is the reason for the surrender of the Philippines, not the 3W}.

Doklam: Media Warfare

In the Doklam context, China has been using this concept to influence domestic and international public opinion in support of China's actions — in this case trampling over Bhutan's claims and ripping up the 2012 agreement on tri-junctions. China's state-owned media, foreign ministry, defence ministry and even foreign minister Wang Yi have let loose a barrage of statements+ and press briefings and commentaries, with the intention of dissuading India from its actions at the site. {This barrage is only statements of boast, or threats or invectives; not the truth. Does any nation believe all that China says? China's credibility is extremely low; has never been high}

Doklam: Psychological warfare

With every Indian media outlet amplifying the Chinese message, the idea is to use Indians to put pressure on the Indian government and get them to withdraw, largely by doubting India's own assertions. Closely related is the psychological warfare unleashed by China — this has been everything from calling Sushma Swaraj a "liar"+ to saying the "countdown had begun"; assertions that China would rescind its decision on Sikkim or "free" Sikkim from Indian oppression; or that it could interfere in J&K"-- all intended to "undermine India's ability to conduct combat operations through psychological operations aimed at deterring, shocking and demoralizing enemy military personnel."

Suddenly, pictures of 1962 war were flashed through Chinese media, which remains a sore point in India. Some Chinese commentaries even said 1962 veterans would send their children to fight India, since that was how angry the average Chinese was. Yet, As TOI pointed out+ some time ago, the Doklam issue was not among the top 50 trends on Weibo, their social media platform, which boasts 560 million followers!

The Indian non-response has been the worst thing for China. India's China experts have led the way in the government and even the opposition refused to react to China's tactics to prevent China from executing a war without firing a single shot.

Doklam: Legal Warfare


In 2016, the 'Three Warfare' operations exerted a strong "psychological frightening force" on everyone connected with the South China Sea issue. Official Chinese media described the arbitration as a "farce" which did not need to be obeyed, while officially the Chinese ambassador to the US, Cui Tiankai, argued that the arbitration case would "undermine the authority and effectiveness of international law," justifying China's rejection of it as a defense of "international justice and the true spirit of international law". So China, the rule-breaker suddenly became China, the rule-defender.

Something similar is underway vis-a-vis India now, sources believe. Earlier this week, a Chinese official claimed that Bhutan had "accepted" Chinese sovereignty+ on Doklam forcing Thimphu to have to refute it. Thimphu could have, as Manila did, refrained from an official denial, which would have been recorded as a Chinese victory.[b]{The Chinese calculation was that in spite of the close treaty relationship with India, Bhutan would be intimidated by China and may choose not to refute the Chinese statement and it could then exploit the wedge. Unfortunately for it, it didn't go that way. But, China would continue to exert undue pressure on Bhutan now. India has to do to Bhutan what the US was unable to do to Philippines after the UNCLOS verdict} While China claims Doklam as its own, they have conveniently glossed over the fact that Bhutan and China have held 24 rounds of talks on this dispute.[/b]


As historian Srinath Raghavan has pointed out, the 1890 convention which China suddenly swears by, was not binding on Bhutan. The Chinese claim that Mt Gipmochi should be the tri-junction as mentioned in the 1890 convention is also "problematic." "The principle of defining the boundary therefore was the highest watershed: the highest line of mountains separating the rivers flowing on either side. This is the most logical way of drawing a boundary in mountainous regions. However, subsequent surveys showed that Mount Gipmochi is not on the highest watershed in the area. The latter is the line running from Batang-La to Merugla to Sinchela and then down to the Amo Chu river."


He continues, "The Gipmochi peak is at 14,518ft above the mean sea level, while Merugla and Sinchela (both passes) are respectively at 15,266ft and 14,531ft. The Batangla-Merugla-Sinchela line is undeniably the highest watershed in the region. Hence Bhutan claims it as the boundary line with Tibet and regards Doklam area as its territory. Hence, India claims that Batangla should be the tri-junction."


But by now, China has flooded the media and airwaves with its contention that first, the 1890 Convention is sacrosanct (although China refuses to accept the 1914 convention and McMahon Line of 1914) and that Mt Gipmochi is the tri-junction not Batang-La. In addition, as Raghavan points out, if China is right and there was no dispute, why has China been holding talks with Bhutan?



Writing for IDSA, research fellow Abhijit Singh wrote, "The evolving Chinese 3Ws strategy goes beyond mere propaganda wars and misinformation campaigns. Expanding conventional war dynamics into the political domain, the 3Ws appear aimed at undermining India's organizational foundations and target military morale. More disquietingly, the strategy appears designed to subdue India without even needing to fight."

BSR Murthy
BRFite
Posts: 140
Joined: 02 Apr 2003 12:31
Location: Texas

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby BSR Murthy » 13 Aug 2017 08:01

williams wrote: >snip<
Some of the discussion we are having here is been talked about by some ex top brass. Seems like BRF is on the same page


Who needs Burkha Dutt?!
These retired generals should be playing rummy not war games - at least not on TV.
As Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with the army you have...not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time".

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 08:19

As a observer of the libya and syria wars i would say the
Flame and fury of cm and bm strikes lasts for a day or
Two of media optics only. None but khan has enough of
Such and pgm to carry out a sustained campaign.

And despite zero air power or decent uav , isis continues
To carry out devastating hit and run raids in open desert the latest yesterday when they killed 18 in a output after 100 zombies swarmed it

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10742
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Gagan » 13 Aug 2017 08:46

Not appropriate to discuss locations or numbers, but the one tranche of Brahmos deployed in the NE in the mid of last year was supposed to be 100 missiles strong
Just saying

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10742
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Gagan » 13 Aug 2017 08:48

These will likely take out supply bases, airfields, radar installations, SAM sites critical infrastructure, communication nodes etc

williams
BRFite
Posts: 239
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 20:55

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby williams » 13 Aug 2017 08:51

Gagan wrote:Not appropriate to discuss locations or numbers, but the one tranche of Brahmos deployed in the NE in the mid of last year was supposed to be 100 missiles strong
Just saying

That is correct. The recent regiment is armed with the deep dive variety. There are 3 more such regiments with block 1 and block 2 missiles.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 09:39

Having failed to subdue india with optics msm and threats the score is india 1 china 0

Lizard needs to deploy shock and fist armies into tibet through the pleasant winter to restore lost honour and face. Let us see how it works. A million heated huts and soup kitchens will be needed for their feared 32 divisions in a week fist army our retd rummy generals shiver about and untold amts of fuel

Let the dlagon pull down his pants to show us his real tooling

India is waiting too see if down under the dlagon is thunder !!

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33968
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 13 Aug 2017 09:48

Singha wrote:
Lizard needs to deploy shock and fist armies into tibet through the pleasant winter to restore lost honour and face. Let us see how it works. A million heated huts and soup kitchens will be needed for their feared 32 divisions in a week fist army our retd rummy generals shiver about and untold amts of fuel

You forgot auskigen er oxygen enriched tents in North Dharamsala

kancha
BRFite
Posts: 764
Joined: 20 Apr 2005 19:13

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kancha » 13 Aug 2017 09:52

DrRatnadip wrote:
kancha wrote:Folks, posted another blog on the quality of the PLA soldiers. This one is about an incident in South Sudan where the PLA peacekeepers ran away from their posts, abandoning their weapons upon coming under fire.
In the end, it was the Indian Peacekeepers from the Kumaon Regiment that restored the situation!

Blog Link

Twitter Link

This shows real nature of chini soldiers.. Eleven is well aware of this fact hence only fighting war with gober times..Thanks for posting sir..


Exactly. Just that they actually got named and shamed this time round.
Dare I say, it will happen more and more as they try to expand their military footprint as well. And knowing their necessity to put their best 'face' forward, let me venture out and say that these were not just some regular body of troops transported for the peacekeeping mission, but specially selected, trained and indoctrinated ones - basically the best they had. And they couldn't sustain themselves under fire by vastly under-equipped Sudanese. :twisted:

kancha
BRFite
Posts: 764
Joined: 20 Apr 2005 19:13

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kancha » 13 Aug 2017 09:53

DrRatnadip wrote:
kancha wrote:Folks, posted another blog on the quality of the PLA soldiers. This one is about an incident in South Sudan where the PLA peacekeepers ran away from their posts, abandoning their weapons upon coming under fire.
In the end, it was the Indian Peacekeepers from the Kumaon Regiment that restored the situation!

Blog Link

Twitter Link

This shows real nature of chini soldiers.. Eleven is well aware of this fact hence only fighting war with gober times..Thanks for posting sir..


Exactly. Just that they actually got named and shamed this time round.
Dare I say, it will happen more and more as they try to expand their military footprint as well. And knowing their necessity to put their best 'face' forward, let me venture out and say that these were not just some regular body of troops transported for the peacekeeping mission, but specially selected, trained and indoctrinated ones - basically the best they had. And they couldn't sustain themselves under fire by vastly under-equipped Sudanese. :twisted:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 10:03

I wonder how they would fare vs the yemeni houthis?

Even their tall wheaty pakfriends recused themselves deftly

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 11:00

Mystery tweet without location or how he detected the hectic activity

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 2250686464

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 13 Aug 2017 11:14

Singha wrote:Mystery tweet without location or how he detected the hectic activity

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 2250686464

Have been trying to locate for the last 3 days. South of Rikaze is such a general statement

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 231
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 11:26

Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.
2) I am sure that the deployment of these Arty guns will be visible in SAT images but whether IA counter batteries or can effectively target such highly mobile units and disrupt their decision loops a) during rearmament times b) during actual firing times c) disrupt logistics etc
3) Whether IA has scoped out enough cover for their own artillery to withstand this barrage and still be effective, whether IA logistics can withstand attacks on logistics nodes via Arty or CMs
4) PLA will bring TSP military advisors and ISI intelligence inputs to help them in understanding how the IA fights and how best to cripple the IA attacks
5) They will use their drone manufacturing superiority and deploy that with innovation (think a PLA platoon using drones to attack IA positions with small arms/grenades that are precision delivered)

Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. I am confident that as a fighting force we will adjust to the pressures that the PLA puts and come out winners. Our ability to bring more to the table over a longer period due to shorter logistics will be extremely critical, it will even jumpstart the Indian MIC. This will not be a short war should the PLA choose to start it... All of Tibet will be open to probes and attacks over the next 10 years as we ramp up our MIC ourselves. We need to deploy drone blunting/hunting technology/strategies.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 888
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RKumar » 13 Aug 2017 11:39

^ Good analysis except you have discounted IAF role. It is given that IA will also use locally produced WLR, which we used effectively against PA.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 646
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 13 Aug 2017 12:27

tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.
2) I am sure that the deployment of these Arty guns will be visible in SAT images but whether IA counter batteries or can effectively target such highly mobile units and disrupt their decision loops a) during rearmament times b) during actual firing times c) disrupt logistics etc
3) Whether IA has scoped out enough cover for their own artillery to withstand this barrage and still be effective, whether IA logistics can withstand attacks on logistics nodes via Arty or CMs
4) PLA will bring TSP military advisors and ISI intelligence inputs to help them in understanding how the IA fights and how best to cripple the IA attacks
5) They will use their drone manufacturing superiority and deploy that with innovation (think a PLA platoon using drones to attack IA positions with small arms/grenades that are precision delivered)

Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. .


While the PLA probably has better artillery and have less concerns about ammo supply, their logistics constraints remain. There may be flatter land 20-40 km behind the LAC (which means they can't reach much beyond the LAC with any degree of accuracy) but the guns still need to arrive there with their ammo supply, along with thousands of other vehicles trying to use the same road, while being interdicted by the IAF and possibly special forces (Tibetan exiles dropped behind the LAC). IA has had years to prepare their positions against massed artillery.

I'm not aware of the PLA having any tactical success in Korea or Vietnam. They lost several times more than a Vietnamese conscript army which had less heavy weapons than the PLA. They lost a million men in Korea.
Last edited by Deans on 13 Aug 2017 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9572
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 12:37

In Korea the losses were in the 8-10 for one range. That was the height of the human wave warfare. Are the Chinese going to repeat that in this age at Indo-Tibet border?

Malayappan
BRFite
Posts: 421
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 00:11

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Malayappan » 13 Aug 2017 12:52

Not strictly a "neutering the threat" issue but given the discussions in this thread, could be an interesting viewpoint.

Monu Nallapat assesses that a 'neocon' faction in PLA is influenced by pakistan.

Pak GHQ using PLA ‘neocons’ to damage India-China ties

His suggested "way out" may not work, but it is worth reflecting on how China could be outsourcing its India Policy to pakistan, unwittingly or otherwise...
Also some interesting data points on access to US military info for China..

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9572
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 13:01

BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?

nam
BRFite
Posts: 540
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 13 Aug 2017 13:46

tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology may give them temporary superiority.
1) Flatter Land say some 20-40 KM inside Tibet is conducive to mobile artillery which will setup and unleash massive barrage in a few mins, change positions by travelling a few KM from the initial barrage to reset guns and unload the next series. As we all know in high altitudes artillery ranges for 155 Cal guns is more than 40 km.


Artillery is useless in mountains unless they can see what they are hitting. As I mentioned earlier, Soldiers are deployed in reverse slopes. In an indirect mode only motars have the required elevation to target reverse slope positions. We pounded the Pakis in Kargil with 250000 rounds and full air dominance.

How long did it take us to dislodge them?

If I assume they are targeting the our positions in plateau with FOO, well in that case have you seen Jags flying lowing and cluster bombing targets..or SU30 dropping 24 bombs.. it is quite beautiful :D

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 646
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 13 Aug 2017 15:50

pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Not far and not with any kind of accuracy (due to the same high altitude that gives longer range). Moreover, PLA artillery on flat ground is
far more susceptible to artillery fire/ air strikes, than our positions in the mountains.

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 231
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 16:45

There are certain parallels between the present Indo-China issue with Tibet starting with Doklam 2017 and the USA-Mexico fight over Texas starting with the Alamo 1836. The 1836 Alamo battle set the stage for the rise of USA as a major force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 231
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 13 Aug 2017 16:54

Deans wrote:
tandav wrote:Actually I expect the PLA to fight and fight very well and unveil many new concepts that they have been implementing in war games. These will be eagerly watched and understood. PLA may be able to bring overwhelming artillery firepower (a product of their industrial abilities) and counterbattery radar technology m
Based on my reading of the PLA tactical successes in Korea and Vietnam. IA may finally fight a worthy opponent in the PLA and cement its place as a China/USA near peer power. .


While the PLA probably has better artillery and have less concerns about ammo supply, their logistics constraints remain. There may be flatter land 20-40 km behind the LAC (which means they can't reach much beyond the LAC with any degree of accuracy) but the guns still need to arrive there with their ammo supply, along with thousands of other vehicles trying to use the same road, while being interdicted by the IAF and possibly special forces (Tibetan exiles dropped behind the LAC). IA has had years to prepare their positions against massed artillery.

I'm not aware of the PLA having any tactical success in Korea or Vietnam. They lost several times more than a Vietnamese conscript army which had less heavy weapons than the PLA. They lost a million men in Korea.


Knowing the PLA I would wager that the Chinese have disbursed Weapons Caches, Fuel and Ammo Dumps already layed up in various staging areas, secret tunnels/holes in ground all over Tibet. They will not run out unless our intelligence has tagged them and has the ability to take them out as soon as the war goes hot?

What happens if there are no thousands of vehicles only say only 500 Self Propelled Artillery Trucks Wheeling about in Tibet under the air cover of PLAAF

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 17:19

Do you know anything about a artillery regt operates?
It seems you do not.

Firstly not even usaf can guarantee a air cover in an area the size of tibet from 6 airbases all within range of our counterstrikes

Secondly those 500 sp guns will need a constant supply of ammo fuel food and secured surveyed sites with civil engg assets, sam cover and weather radar and c3i trucks and organic support assets with spare parts like engines and barrels. They cannot just roam alone in a place the size of india

And about these secret sites we have had years of watching these daily with half dozen sats ... not so secret anymore

Its ok to come up with dhoti shiver scenarios but be realistic

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9572
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 17:25

1. Certainly they could disperse their stores but to get the dispersed store for a massed attack has its own logistic issues.
2. As Shiv saar had pointed out earlier, the Chinese have good road to all their assets. If that is the case then it is just a matter of keeping an eye on those roads/tracks.
3. Even otherwise, our sat capability should help us spot unusual traffic to and from unmarked areas. This is one area were we can expect help for US i.e. Sat intelligence.
4. As others have pointed out the Tibetain terrain that *might* help them with mobility also affords us easy sighting and shooting.
5. BTW, What looks plain/flat on map is never that flat on the ground. Take the Doklam plateau as an example. Plateau implies a table top but do have a look at the terrain on the so called *plateau* on google maps 3D version and orient the map as if you looking in from the east. I have taken a screenshot for studying the terrain and I will post later.
6. While shooting at that elevation might add to the range of fire but if the equipment is not calibrated then it would also make the equipment inaccurate.
7. Moreover, IA is deployed on the reverse slope with only a small detachment holding the crest lines / passes. That makes targeting that much more difficult or near impossible.
8. While altitude might add to the range, the terrain makes it impossible to shoot on the ideal ballistic trajectory. To target reverse slopes I would think one would need to use lofted trajectory and that will cut down the range.

One can read on the Nathu La skirmish to get an idea on Arty role during that incident and who did a better job and more importantly why.

Amoghvarsha
BRFite
Posts: 228
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 12:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Aug 2017 18:18

pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 18:30

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/

In the mountains, “small mistakes can lead to catastrophic events,” while “technological supremacy can be negated by even the most crude and non-technical enemy actions,” the new manual said.
Therefore, “Mountain combat calls for extreme physical fitness, mental toughness, endurance, and the utmost in tactical and technical proficiency on the part of all individuals.” With proper leadership and preparation, “the physical characteristics of mountains can support and enhance offensive operations.”

Tell me who will benefit from it, 16 Mountain division from India who practice this every day (and have been bloodied as part of RR in JK/NE) or the famed 32 plain divisions that can be rushed 2000KM to Tibetan platue (even if properly acclimatized). Tactics/endurance/logistics (tech playing lesser role) play a higher role.

Amoghvarsha
BRFite
Posts: 228
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 12:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Aug 2017 18:51

fanne wrote:https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/

In the mountains, “small mistakes can lead to catastrophic events,” while “technological supremacy can be negated by even the most crude and non-technical enemy actions,” the new manual said.
Therefore, “Mountain combat calls for extreme physical fitness, mental toughness, endurance, and the utmost in tactical and technical proficiency on the part of all individuals.” With proper leadership and preparation, “the physical characteristics of mountains can support and enhance offensive operations.”

Tell me who will benefit from it, 16 Mountain division from India who practice this every day (and have been bloodied as part of RR in JK/NE) or the famed 32 plain divisions that can be rushed 2000KM to Tibetan platue (even if properly acclimatized). Tactics/endurance/logistics (tech playing lesser role) play a higher role.



16? We have only 12 mountain divisions.

SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1554
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SriKumar » 13 Aug 2017 18:53

I would say a war, if it comes, will be a chance for GOI to test all the new defense systems that India has come up with. CEP testing of Prithivi/Agni with conventional warheads should yield useful data for high-altitude CEP in Tibet.

I had read about this glide bomb with a range of 100 km. This can be deployed well within India's borders and take out targets deep within Tibet. And if released it Tibet, entire TIbet is its playing field with no cover for the Chinese. Aircraft can release this from outside SAM range.

It was first tested in 2014 (or 2013). This test is in 2016. Dropped from a Su-30. The Garthmaa bomb is 1000 kg!! Accurate CEP not required.
http://topyaps.com/drdo-drop-tests-glide-bombs
Images in this website are fake/imagined.

These could be as effective as cruise missiles if CEP is good, but with a 1000 kg payload....who needs accuracy. And hey, if the bomb's accuracy is useless, this is an opportunity to improve it, for future conflicts on Tibet.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21886
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Aug 2017 18:53

Malayappan wrote:Not strictly a "neutering the threat" issue but given the discussions in this thread, could be an interesting viewpoint.

Monu Nallapat assesses that a 'neocon' faction in PLA is influenced by pakistan.

Pak GHQ using PLA ‘neocons’ to damage India-China ties

His suggested "way out" may not work, but it is worth reflecting on how China could be outsourcing its India Policy to pakistan, unwittingly or otherwise...
Also some interesting data points on access to US military info for China..

The fact is that China doesn't need to be manipulated by GHQ, Rawalpindi about India. GHQ may be doing all that, no doubt, but China doesn't need any such trigger for its policy towards India.

Since the 50s, China has considered India as an arch enemy and has been condescending about us. It doesn't require an Einstein to tell us that its nuke, missile & diplomatic support to Pakistan, its opposition to India everywhere, its threatening & abusive language against us, its frequent incursions et al are as a result of this. Fundamental to this is the ideology that there cannot be two swords in one scabbard. That again goes back to the Chinese imperialism.

China is left with few friends in the world today (it may have its way with many small countries but that is different) and even fewer in Asia. Its two lapdogs are North Korea & Pakistan, as we all know. There is no doubt that Indian Army recognizes that future wars are going to be 2-front or 3-front war (third front being internal Islamist threats). Frequently top echelons of Indian armed forces have talked of that eventuality and their preparation. The 'Road to Nowhere in Doka La Area', as Nalapat refers to it, is actually the building block for that eventuality, as also the huge presence of PLA in POK under the guise of building infrastructure projects. As we have always said here, Pakistan is already a province of China. The DAWN leak recently of the real Chinese objectives of CPEC clearly had Sinicization of Pakistan as one primary goal. Pakistan will be 'half-cooked' in Chinese narrative. The Chinese objective is to cause a break-up of India in the East and the North. The idea is that India would be so much debilitated that it would no longer pose a threat to Chinese hegemony. China is confident that it can handle the USA and Japan once India is taken care of.

China is like Pakistan in some ways. In Pakistan, everybody wants to defeat, destroy & conquer India; only the degree & methods may differ. Some people who think that Nawaz Sharif has been softer to India are mistaken. He has the same fundamental objective as any other Pakistani. Similarly, no Han Chinese would tolerate another power centre in Asia (for the time being, before such intolerance is escalated to the rest of the world). That pits China directly against India. That there is a rift between the PLA & CPC is well known. Ever since XI ascended the throne and assumed overall command of the CMC, there has been frequent exhortations to the PLA to obey the Party line. This doesn't happen if there was complete obedience. This presented starkly nakedly during Xi Jinping's visit to India three years back. Therefore, some 'neocon' Generals may be trying a more aggressive tone, but the overall trend among CPC, Politburo, the Politburo Standing Committee and the President is to be inimical to India. Therefore, the 'advice' that Nalapat gives to China, though sane, is not implementable.

China has got itself into a tragicomic situation at Doka La. Extricating itself from that without losing face is impossible. Neither militarily, nor diplomatically it can do so. Simultaneous withdrawal of troops and withdrawal of Chinese construction equipment along with an assurance to discuss the issue peacefully with both Bhutan & India are the only possibilities. China can request India to help it word the statement in such a way that it didn't lose much face. However, even a peaceful resolution of this stand-off would be termed as a setback to PLA.

The only option available for Xi is to blame elements in PLA that were disobeying CPC and purge some Generals from the Western Theatre Command (which subsumed the erstwhile Chengdu Military Region responsible for this area).

On Pakistan handing over American equipment to China, it is well documented. Starting from faulty tomahawk missiles that crashed in Afghanistan in 1998 to crashed Chinook during OBL attack, things have found their way to China.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 18:57

If you read some serious literature - from Chinese POV they have following limitations -
1. Very long logistics line to mainland China (only an issue for a longer war, for shorter war, they would have stored supplies locally)
2. Mountain trained manpower - Limited to what they have in Tibet (which is not much). Soldiers can be acclimatized (as we did in 1962), but one not trained for mountain warfare is disadvantaged
3.Montain warfare is not conducive for large formation movement (hence large number does not count). However, some features exist where a mass attack can work. Hopefully we know them and are adequately prepared (and willing to do the same)
4.The Tibet side is relatively flat (which is good for logistics, but exposes them to interdiction), while the lofty peeks/valleys of Himalayas is on our side. The fight there is mostly uphill and crossing various choke points even if the Chinese breach the front.
5.Motivation- We are ready, we have a purpose, what are they fighting for? Teach a lesson?
6.Leadership - I think we are miles ahead (but so did TSPA thought to their surprise. Plus Chinese have shown that they have a system to learn fast as with their winning all medals in Olympic etc. shows). How much is that true for Mil leadership is the question. On our side, I assume all the officers would have done a tour of duty in JK/NE and are battle tested. Chicom Mil leadership also has to do some other non-army stuff like politics/business
7.Technology - Not a big differentiator as the Tech gap on either side is not great. Even with high number of Chinese equipment (we don't have any less)- Where will that get deployed? I think their locally stored equipment is no more than ours. We actually have local number and equipment supremacy.
8. Air force - We have clear advantage. Both superior weapon (SU30MKI vs SU27/J-XX), local numbers, distance, elevation and most important training and doctrine to fight in mountains.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 19:02

Amoghvarsha wrote:
fanne wrote:https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/04/mountain_warfare/




16? We have only 12 mountain divisions.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... isions.htm

count the divisions and their location

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9572
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 19:05

Dokalam Plateau as see from the east side.

Image

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 19:07

Amoghvarsha wrote:
pankajs wrote:BTW, when you fire arty from 20-40 km inside your territory how far can you hit inside the opponents?


Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.


bigger the range more costly and fat the MLRS becomes and needs some form of precision guidance and cannot be fired in a swarm like the cheap Grads. you are in effect talking of a pralay or atacms type tactical strike missile at that range not a "true" MLRS.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9572
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 13 Aug 2017 19:10

Doklam plateau as seen from the north side. This is how the Chinese see the area and beyond. The bare ridge of at the top is Jampheri ridge. The ridge at the bottom is Batang La - Mergu La - Sinche La ridge. You can clearly see Bhutan/China border market along this ridge.

Image

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8684
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Aug 2017 19:19

Dhoti-Shiver (DS-1313):

Doklam is a diversion. The real mischief is elsewhere (if I know where I would post it). Suggestions: South of Andaman/ Nicobar. Lakshadweep. Maladweep. North Myanmar border with India.
Seychelles? Mauritius? South Nicobar is most likely: equal access issues from mainland India and from South Myanmar where lizard has strength. Attack completely directed at Indian NAVY, not IAF or IA. Objective: Debilitate capability to hit Gwadar or block Malacca Straits - of help Taiwan or Vietnam.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60477
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2017 19:28

tibet is a 1500km wide flat board with not a lot of places to hide . to get the point of biting deep into us, all of chinese assets have to come out on this board and maintain a moving supply line to the mainland. all within indian surveillance and strike capabilities. a chain can be broken or disrupted at any point in its long length. its a hard problem for any general staff. a single division needs 100s of tons of supplies daily else it will be combat ineffective and grind to a halt. if supplies are piled up close to the front before escalating, loses the element of suprise, our jaguars will have a field day mauling these depots.

secondly as the russians saw in afpak , the mechanized steppe/desert forces are vulnerable in the mountains and only a massive air dominance can somewhat reduce risk , hard to enforce over the himalaya vs india.

there are no other places where they can really bit into our flesh unless they can get Pakis to launch a war - this i am 101% sure the Pakis will deftly not agree to - they are not about to risk blood and treasure for some mythical promise of loot and plunder. if we isolate and hammer them , they could lose a lot at least cost to their chinese masters. even a lapdog knows when its time to get off and slink under the sofa .

thats noko and tsp trying to hide if usa and india get on their case properly. note the strong well muscled backside and wheat fed brown tail of our arabi biraders.

Image

this is a great window for India to slap the maldives and make them fall in line, cleanse their islamists and tear up the chinese contracts in bonfire in male. zero risk i tell ya.

seychelles, mauritius have india, uk and france as guarantors of their security. they are not going anywhere.

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1060
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kati » 13 Aug 2017 19:53

Just in:

China Eastern Airlines ‘Misbehaves’ With Indian Passenger, Govt Takes Up Matter With Beijing

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/ch ... 27773.html

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 13 Aug 2017 19:54

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a549118.pdf

happy reading. I did!!

Small forces, adept leadership, training (training and training), logistics, interdiction


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests