Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

Bloomberg Asia‏Verified account @BloombergAsia

These countries run the largest trade surpluses with China https://bloom.bg/2wyYI72
BRICS > Brazil @ 4; South Africa @ 9; Russia not on list but increasing dependence on the Chinese markets after western sanctions. That leaves China and India who are at odds.
Image
Last edited by pankajs on 23 Aug 2017 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

ldev wrote:
All of this is to say that expertise in implementing such large scale projects is as much of a critical strategic necessity as domestic weapons manufacturing e.g. the MMRDA (Mumbai Metropolitcan Regional Development Authority) has issued tenders to build a trans harbour link from South Mumbai across the harbour to Nhava Sheva which will link the city to the new international airport being built there. The tender document insisted that domestic Indian companies MUST have a tie up with a foreign construction company with the required expertise. I presume the required expertise was to be able to build a bridge with supports in the sea-bed. It is disconcerting to realize that even such large Indian construction companies as Gammon India and Shapoorji Pallonji do not have such expertise and have to tie-up with foreign contractors.
The Konkan railway has 2000 bridges and 91 tunnels - so it's not as though such projects cannot be done. But given the model of funding in India these things take a long time

http://daily.bhaskar.com/news/MAH-OTC-p ... 4-PHO.html
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

Indian media can go to any extent to sabotage Modi including running slanted stories.

Tenzing Lamsang‏ @TenzingLamsang [Editor-in-Chief of 'The Bhutanese Newspaper' @thebhutanese]

Distasteful, disrespectful & completely off the mark. Does harm at a delicate time. Commando journalism at its worst http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/dan ... aison.html

Image
Last edited by pankajs on 23 Aug 2017 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

ldev has a point. in J&K some swiss firm was roped in for the railway tunneling and bridging designs/reviews.

even in a old branch of engg like civil if we are sub par ...
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by KLNMurthy »

Suraj wrote:A buffer state isn't about the people, but just the territorial space to absorb reverses. Just because PRC treats buffer states as expendable people and landmass does not mean the definition applies universally.

It is in India's interest to take back portions of Tibet or other bordering areas from China. At the very least, our foreign policy needs to emphasize continuously keeping the place unstable for Beijing, such that any weakening of central hold results in sections of that landmass transferring to Indian outright control or suzerainty.
China routinely flouts bilateral treaties with India, as also international treaties. It also brazenly supports terrorists.these are facts.

Despite the current assertiveness in Doklam, India has held back from exposing China's anti-social conduct. It may be up to private Indian bodies to do this.

For its part, GOI can tell China that China's violations of treaty obligations means that India is free to ignore those same treaties, including acceptance of Tibet as part of China. If China wants to escalate beyond raging in a crude and clumsy way, we can absorb the escalation and maybe do a little escalation on our own.

It is not as though China has been holding back on hostility towards India, even before all this. Support for insurgents, fostering TSP's nuclear threat, subversion of domestic public opinion, and on and on--they have been routinely engaging in every imaginable attack short of outright physical war. It is clear that they couldn't care less about the friendship and goodwill of the Indian people.

We should put away once and for all the argument that if we don't give in to China, they can inflict even more harm on us, which they have been holding in reserve for negotiation purposes. For India, it would be no negotiation at all, just surrender and more surrender after that. There is no deal to be made with a bully and abuser.

India would have nothing at all to lose by taking a hostile and provocative stance towards China, including encroaching into Tibet. In negotiations, we can always offer to temporarily dial down the hostility in exchange for concessions from them which we assume would be temporary also.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Eleven has just replaced the military chief of the western sector (all of Tibet) with a man who has no known experience of high altitude operations.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote: even in a old branch of engg like civil if we are sub par ...
When Americans hire Indians it's because they are smart and competent. When Indians hire foreigners its because India is sub par.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5381
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote: even in a old branch of engg like civil if we are sub par ...
When Americans hire Indians it's because they are smart and competent. When Indians hire foreigners its because India is sub par.
Each country has its field of expertise. Europeans have very good tunneling tech.
hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4635
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by hnair »

You can either tunnel or you cant. India can tunnel, but the timelines are not based on beating china on what it does in its spare time! In infra, it is not about who made your pick-axe, but the budget and will to take forward multi-thousand crore projects against severe budgetary odds. Since independence, Indian govt had always had an interest in getting the local workforce up to date about latest advances in the world. So there is a preference for a foreign partner that can bring in newer tech or techinques, when RFQs get vetted. If china does it (and they do it all the time), we hear ra-ra about their "skill in usurping from west, while we play nice"...

One of the curious things I heard about Bangalore metro TBM issue is that the biting parts of TBM were made in Italy. Very expensive and takes long time to reach India after re-order, screwing up the schedules for years. Some professor at IISc apparently came up with a metallurgical solution, which keeps the biters sharp and pointy for only 1/3 the time of the italian bits, but at 1/5 the price and a delivery time of one-month. Work went on more smoothly after wards, as per this big-projects manager type, who was narrating this story. If similar story is from a chinese source we be like "wow! hook or crook, they did it, unlike us"

From some posts here, I feel our engineering geeks rather than the stupid commies around me, seem to be the biggest crypto-fans of chinese! Too many whatsapp message had to be shot down about "Have you seen their shiny parades on shinier streets? China is better than even US, so what chance India has" by shivering techies :-?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

hnair wrote: From some posts here, I feel our engineering geeks rather than the stupid commies around me, seem to be the biggest crypto-fans of chinese! Too many whatsapp message had to be shot down about "Have you seen their shiny parades on shinier streets? China is better than even US, so what chance India has" by shivering techies :-?
This is the converse side of dhoti shivering - and that is high praise for everything that others do and attaching a scathing comment critical of Indians with any news about anything done by China. It is one thing to praise China - but it takes on a different colour when there is a counter rant about how bad, stupid, dull, incompetent, slow we are. And these are the very comments by our own that are picked up and thrown back at us by Chinese and others. Maybe it reflects frustration with India and Indians but it is stupid to have a public rant thinking that things will get better by raving.
Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Yayavar »

pankajs wrote:Indian media can go to any extent to sabotage Modi including running slanted stories.

Tenzing Lamsang‏ @TenzingLamsang [Editor-in-Chief of 'The Bhutanese Newspaper' @thebhutanese]

Distasteful, disrespectful & completely off the mark. Does harm at a delicate time. Commando journalism at its worst http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/dan ... aison.html

Image
The week, like Outlook, always had that undercurrent of anti-govt, anti-India at times, as if they have a grander view of neutrality around the world. In Kargil times I read report on week which tried to paint officers as supercilious and uncaring since they gave their correspondents scant attention.
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7793
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Prasad »

Assam - Kunming was the old Hump route that the brits and americans used to fly. There is also the Ledo-Stilwell road through Myanmar from Ledo, Assam all the way to Kunming. Can be used to transport something heavy if you need road transport instead of cross country. Its a good 150km shorter than the Aizawl-China border oh great yakbuttercoffee drinker. Although -

From wiki -
In the six months following its opening, trucks carried 129,000 tons of supplies from India to China.[9] Twenty-six thousand trucks that carried the cargo (one way) were handed over to the Chinese.[9]
As General Chennault had predicted, supplies carried over the Ledo Road at no time approached tonnage levels of supplies airlifted monthly into China over the Hump.[10] The road, however, complemented the airlift.
In July 1945, the last full month before the end of the war, 71,000 tons of supplies were flown over the Hump, compared to only 6,000 tons using the Ledo Road; the airlift operation continued in operation until the end of the war, with a total tonnage of 650,000 tons compared to 147,000 for the Ledo Road.[7][10] By the time supplies were flowing over the Ledo Road in large quantities, operations in other theaters had shaped the course of the war against Japan.[6]
In 2015, it was not possible to travel the Ledo Road due to border restrictions.[21] In 2015, the Chinese section from Namyun village to Pangsau Pass in Burma was a "heavily rutted muddy track" through the jungle according to a BBC correspondent.[21]
All of the Myanmarese bit lies in the Kachin province which is insurgency capital against the Myanmarese, backed by the two bit buggers to the east. Incidentally the chinese want this road redone and opened (so they can flood myanmar and the NE with their cheap nonsense. - http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 425879.ece

Image
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Isn't there a way to shorten that southward dip of the road I wonder. Maybe helo-lift loads across that section to near the border and then drive along the fine commie road to Kunming. But thanks! My point is proven that there is a convenient invasion/infiltration route there. Note that it could be used both ways, so I hope IA is doing good recon there. Tripura could be cut off too easily otherwise, with no easy way to take it back, if the buggers cut the chicken's neck.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by manjgu »

G parthsarthy was narrating a conversation with a Burmese ambassador during some conference on Indias look east policy, road building etc : Ambassador : hey partha...since when is India member of NATO Partha: Sir, india is not part of NATO Ambassador: ooo..i thought India part of NATO ..No Action Talk Only !!!
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Hari Seldon »

posted without kament.

Image
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

Surely Indian satellites can see if the dams are being opened? Looks like China is going to have huge drought and power shortage next year.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

The japanis faced grave problems in myanmar while trying to invade nagaland. A lot of heavy eqpt proved impassable in the jungles and mainly just infantry mortars and small pack howitzers were able to make it with weak supply lines

Myanmar is more developed now and its north part is dry rain shadow area. Cheen shock armies could open another front in mizoram if you want to worry but in reality not much chance
dsreedhar
BRFite
Posts: 387
Joined: 10 Jan 2011 06:57

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by dsreedhar »

http://www.straitstimes.com/world/unite ... tack-fears

USS Navy ship John S McCain collided with a tanker this week. This is 4th one this year i hear. Could China be behind this sabotage somehow? Need to keep an eye on this aspect (electronic warfare) of China.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

in latest collision somehow the ship steering system failed for a while before impact and then mysteriously became alright again.

shades of Malaysia 777 ...

hope its not a stuxnet type panda part activated by burst satcom signal....i believe the NSA has tiny flea sized bugs that can directly receive satcom signals and transmit for 100s of meters too. and despite all the hu ha about underwater cheen quantum light experiment, khan himself is playing with "blue green laser" for submarine comms for years.

if khan finds the truth, his considerable wrath will be fun to watch.
Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 1055
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Guddu »

Its a little bit OT, but a few months ago, NK's missiles were going haywire. At that time it was suspected that the US had hacked them. Now US ships are going haywire....too much of a coincidence. Next, watch for Chinese ships going haywire.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11242
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Gagan »

China has built dams on the Brahmaputra. They will release water if the dams are overflowing.
India is asking for dams storage levels too, so that we know why did they release this water.

One of the dams is visible here: Zangmu Dam 29°10'29.27"N, 92°31'37.36"E
Image

Chinese Mischief is very possible.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11242
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Gagan »

Image

This is from a blog, don't know how accurate, haven't gone through it in full. But found this map interesting so posting here.

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2016/
DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 1048
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by DavidD »

The link was posted last page, but I think the article deserves to be presented in full. Sounds to me like the Bhutanese look at both China and India with a wary eye, and they're not happy about being caught in a struggle between the two much larger neighbors. It doesn't seem like China will succeed in pulling Bhutan into its orbit, but it sounds like Bhutan won't allow itself being disgraced as an Indian protectorate either.

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/dan ... aison.html

Dangerous liaison

Outside the arrival gate at the Paro airport, the only international airport in Bhutan, I was greeted by a gush of wind on August 11. It was, however, not too cold, and thick clouds were kissing the surrounding hilltops. As the taxi reached the outskirts of Thimphu, the capital city 48km away, it started raining heavily. And the lush green hills glittered like a string of pearls.

Bhutan has been witnessing a glittering transition over the past decade. Once a conservative monarchy, it made a smooth switch to democracy in 2008. Three years ago, the country witnessed a dramatic break from the past as the young king, Jigmey Khesar Namgyel Wangchuk, publicly kissed his wife, Jetsun Pema—twice on her cheeks and once on the lips. The king’s public display of affection hinted at a big change in the Himalayan kingdom.

Some of the changes are quite visible. I was under the impression that smoking was banned in Bhutan, and that there were no pubs or discotheques. But the taxi driver, Karma Dorjee, said there was no such ban. “This king is great. He has given us the freedom of choice,” said Karma. In Thimphu, I saw several pubs and discotheques. “Young girls dance here for money. These dance bars are only for adults,” Karma said. Although smoking is banned, tourists and others were puffing away in public. And, public displays of affection are no longer taboo.

What seems forbidden is any discussion of the Doklam standoff in the trijunction of India, Bhutan and China. “Two big nations are fighting and we are caught in the crossfire. We don’t know where will we go if war breaks out,” said tour operator Sonaem Dorji.

So, no open support for India. Is support for China growing?

Sonaem said some Bhutanese supported China out of fear. “They will finish us if we get closer to them. China is a nasty country and we don’t want it to be here in any form. India controls Bhutan, but it will never invade us,” he said. As I spent more time in Bhutan, I realised that people like Sonaem could be in the minority.

For an official reaction to the Doklam crisis, I rang up the prime minister’s office and requested an appointment. Prime Minister Tshering Tobgay replied through his personal secretary: “For the next two months, I am totally occupied. I have a series of meetings and foreign trips.” The secretary directed me to the ministry of foreign affairs, with a word of caution. “If you raise the Doklam issue, you will not get any response. It is a calculated decision, which has come from the top. No one would speak a word,” he said.

Foreign Minister Lynopo Damcho Dorji’s secretary told me over the phone that the minister was in Nepal for a conference of BIMSTEC (Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multi-sectoral Technical and Economic Cooperation). “Neither the minister nor the officials would make any further comment on the Doklam standoff,” he said.

Located in northwest Bhutan, Doklam is an inaccessible piece of strategic real estate. The crisis erupted after China started building a paved road, which can carry vehicles up to 40 tonnes, in the region. It would have linked Bhutan with Tibet and threatened the vulnerable Siliguri corridor.

Strategic experts in Bhutan say that, to resolve the crisis, India should respect the Anglo-Chinese treaty (1890), which has been accepted by successive Indian governments since independence. “And that clearly says India would have access to Nathu La while China could access Doklam,” said political commentator and blogger Wangcha Sangey.

“It is highly immoral on the part of India to abrogate the treaty. Bhutan will not accept it. We may not raise our voice out of fear and pressure from India. But Doklam is an issue between China and Bhutan. India has no business to interfere in it,” Sangey told me.

It was probably the harshest possible view coming from anyone in Bhutan even as its government has opted to stay silent. Although the king himself is said to be in touch with India, Bhutan has only issued just a brief statement, “We want both India and China to settle their disputes as we do not want to see any war.”

A senior official in Thimphu told me that the Bhutanese government had requested India to withdraw its forces from Doklam so that China, too, would pull back its troops. India reportedly reduced the number of its forces, but there was no complete withdrawal. Subsequently, Bhutan refused to make any anti-China statements in India’s support.

To know more about Bhutan’s refusal to stand with India, I decided to meet Information Minister D.N. Dhungyel. Since it was Saturday, an official holiday, I went to his residence. The security staff let me in after I told them that I was from India and had come to schedule an appointment with the minister.

Dhungyel was not at home. He came back half an hour later and was surprised to see me. He was incensed when I told him that I wanted to discuss India-Bhutan relations. “How dare you come to my residence and talk on this subject?” asked the minister.

When I told him that the prime minister’s office had advised me to meet him, he wanted to know whether I had sought permission from the Bhutanese embassy in Delhi. It was clear that Dhungyel was afraid of discussing Doklam. “Two big nations are fighting and we are caught in the middle. Shouldn’t we feel scared? Definitely we are. We have decided not to utter a word over the issue. You may want us to talk, but we will not do so, never,” he said.

Before I could finish the tea that his daughter had served, the minister asked me to leave. As I started walking to the gate, dodging two dogs that chased me, I could hear the minister scolding his guards for letting me in.

As I got into the taxi, a guard stopped it and asked me to step outside. “The minister says he will sack us. We will lose our jobs because of you,” he said. I refused to get off, and one of the guards snatched my bag and searched it. He went through everything, including my notepad. When I protested, he told me to shut up. “This is not India,” he said. The guards threatened the taxi driver, Saran Subba. “They might arrest me,” said Saran. “We are not supposed to get this close to the high security zone.”

My next stop was the residence of Lyonpo Jigme Zangpo, the speaker of the Bhutanese National Assembly. In terms of stature and protocol, Zangpo is next only to the king. He, too, was not so happy to see me. “I am not here to answer your questions. How could you barge in here like this?” he asked. He said there was no damage to the India-Bhutan friendship. “But everybody would have to understand that national security is of utmost interest to us.”

Zangpo, however, revealed that Bhutan was talking to China about launching formal diplomatic relations. “I cannot tell you more,” he said. “Please understand that we maintain silence because of a well thought out decision taken at the top.” He said it was high time India embraced China.

Bhutanese government sources confirmed that the country, which once shared a special and exclusive relationship with India, was widening its diplomatic outreach. It now has diplomatic ties with 53 countries and is in the process of establishing ties with more.

The previous government under the DPT (Druk Phuensum Tshhogpa) party had established some links with the Chinese government. DPT leaders had met Chinese foreign ministry officials in Japan, South Korea and certain European countries. President of the DPT, Pema Gayamtsho, who is also the leader of the opposition, refused to comment. “As the government has decided not to make any remarks on the issue, I am refraining from making a statement,” he told me. Tshewang Rinzin, spokesperson for the DPT, said the Bhutanese government trusted India. “However, there are many people who raise doubts about ties with India, especially on social media platforms.”

Bhutan’s formal ties with India started in 1865 with the Treaty of Sinchula. Under the terms of the treaty, Bhutan ceded its territories in the Dooars region [which fall in present day Assam and West Bengal] to British India for an annual compensation of Rs 50,000. The treaty was amended in 1910 and it was in force till India became independent. A new treaty with similar terms was signed between Bhutan and India in 1949.

Political commentator Sangey said the treaty kept Bhutan completely isolated. “India guided our foreign policy for more than six decades. During all these years, Bhutan had diplomatic relations with only five or six countries. On top of it, India had included the word ‘protectorate’ in its policy towards Bhutan, something which the Bhutanese felt was disgraceful,” he said.

The situation changed only in 2007 after India, under prime minister Manmohan Singh, signed a new treaty with Bhutan. “As Bhutan now has the power to ascertain its friends, the people are understandably happy,” said Sangey. It is especially true for the younger generation.

At the clock tower near the Thimphu market, I met Santosh Rana, a young man with Nepali roots. Santosh, who did his engineering degree in Chennai, is looking for a job. He is planning to go to Japan as job opportunities are very few in Bhutan. He feels India is also facing a job market slump.

Santosh, 24, said it was important for Bhutan to have friendly ties with China. “Today, China is one of the major economies in the world. Even the US is afraid of it. Bhutan must have relations with China and it would gain a lot. Young people like us would benefit greatly out of that,” he said.

His classmate Thrinluy Namgyel, agreed with Santosh. “For years, we have been living in isolation. It is time for a change. We can have great relations with India even as we have relations with China,” said Thrinluy. Another friend, Sonam Wangchuk, who is also an engineering graduate from India, said China had always troubled Bhutan in the past. “If we establish close relations with China, it will make us another Tibet,” he said. Thrinluy, however, said China had changed a lot and an invasion was unlikely.

While young men are not afraid to voice their opinion, the academics are guarded, just like the administrators. “We don’t know about the repercussions if we open our mouths. If we say relations with China are the need of the hour, we cannot forget that we get maximum grants from India. Our trade is also mostly with India,” said a professor of international relations at the Royal Thimphu College.

Bhutanese government sources confirmed that China was becoming a key player in the country. The first major Chinese investment has come in the religious sector. Atop a hill in Thimphu, which is now known as Buddha Point, is a gold-plated bronze statue of the Buddha. The 169ft statue was installed to commemorate the 60th birthday of Jigme Singhey Wangchuk, the former king. The project, which cost nearly $100 million, was financed by Aerosun Corporation, a major equipment manufacturing company based in Nanjing, China.

Jigmey Thinley, a 27-year-old Buddhist monk, said so long as the Chinese did not interfere with their religious practices, the monks did not have a problem with them. He said the Bhutanese were open to more cooperation with monks from Tibet. Moreover, they did not accept the Dalai Lama as their religious leader as he had refused to listen to them. “He has never visited Bhutan. The Bhutanese probably might not accept his anti-China outbursts,” said Thinley. “Once when I was in Bodhgaya, I tried to get the Dalai Lama’s blessings. But he had a heavy security cover and I was denied entry thrice.” Thinley said he would never again try to meet the Dalai Lama.

Tapas Adhikary, an Indian telecom employee, has been visiting Bhutan twice every month for the past 15 years. He said the local people had become quite reserved towards Indians. “They no longer show any warmth, especially if you are not a tourist. And, the immigration officials do not even let us enter that frequently. Now they put a stamp on our passports as well,” said Adhikary, who is from Kolkata.

Ditching India, however, could prove to be a costly proposition for Bhutan. The Narendra Modi government has taken note of Thimphu’s shifting allegiance. Not a single minister or senior official visited Bhutan for talks after the Doklam crisis erupted. The only high-level contact happened on August 11 in Kathmandu where External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj spoke with Bhutanese Foreign Minister Damcho Dorji on the sidelines of the BIMSTEC summit.

Moreover, India is the most important donor for Bhutan’s development projects. For its 11th five-year plan, India has contributed Rs 4,500 crore. As ties deteriorate, India has suddenly slashed aid for hydroelectric projects in Bhutan from Rs 969 crore to Rs 160 crore.

On the trade front, the landlocked kingdom is completely dependent on India. Nearly 80 per cent of Bhutan’s imports come from India, and more than 90 per cent of its exports go to India. And, with India adopting the goods and services tax (GST), exports to India have become even costlier. “Our products will have to be competitive. But then we will also have to diversify. We need to look at other markets which have favourable tax regimes,” said Phub Tshering, secretary general of the Bhutan Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

Will that market be China? “Sorry, no comments,” he said.

Sonam Tenzing, director of Bhutan’s trade department, too, refused to confirm or rule out launching trade ties with China. “I don’t have the authority to speak on it. But it is being looked after at the highest level,” he said.


Trade with China is already common in north Bhutan, which borders Tibet. “People there cannot come to Thimphu or other towns as they have to seek permission. For us to go there, we have to take permission at the Indian Army base in Haa. So, they trade with Tibet, unofficially,” said a Bhutanese official.

Caught between two big powers, Bhutan is in a dilemma. But it may no longer be willing to take orders from India. Sangey said India was looking for a clear statement from Bhutan deploring China’s repeated threats of war on account of the Doklam crisis. “But India failed to convince Bhutan,” he said. “It is a big defeat for the Indian government. Bhutan has not fallen into the trap laid out by India.”
asgkhan
BRFite
Posts: 1834
Joined: 16 Apr 2009 17:19
Location: Helping BRF research how to seduce somali women

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by asgkhan »

I would take the above article with a pinch of salt. Looking at what Chicom pandas have done to Tibet, Bhutan should count their stars that they have the tiger in their corner.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by sum »

dsreedhar wrote:http://www.straitstimes.com/world/unite ... tack-fears

USS Navy ship John S McCain collided with a tanker this week. This is 4th one this year i hear. Could China be behind this sabotage somehow? Need to keep an eye on this aspect (electronic warfare) of China.
This was the same ship which patrolled and crossed the Mischief reef and other places in S.China sea despite Chinese vehement protests.

So very interesting that same ship was now affected
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Gagan wrote:
This is from a blog, don't know how accurate, haven't gone through it in full. But found this map interesting so posting here.

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2016/
A beautiful image from the above link of the terrain near the Arunachal Tibet border. It's raining
Image
Very few in India have heard of Taksing.It is the last village on the Tibet (China)-Arunachal Pradesh border, and the first village likely to be invaded if Beijing retaliates.Scarily, it takes jawans THREE days of walking to reach Taksing.In all the noise surrounding the Doklam confrontation, Claude Arpi focuses on a crucial issue that has hardly been covered -- the construction of roads for the armed forces and the local population to reach the most remote border posts.
Also:
Out of these, 73 roads, 46 are being constructed by the Ministry of Defence and 27 by the Ministry of Home Affairs.” The minister said 30 roads had been completed so far though all the roads had been scheduled to be completed by 2012-13. According to the government, the main reasons for the delay are: limited working season, logistical issues due to high altitude, rugged and difficult terrain, natural calamities, delay in land acquisition and forest/wildlife clearances. The last justification is surprising as the Modi government had decided in 2014 to do away with the environmental clearance for road projects located within 100 km of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

On this map - chip-chap is a river and qizil jilga is also a river that joins the Chip Chap. The Chinese have a road that runs along the Qizil Jilga where they have built a few military bases

Qizil Jilga seen as blue flashing line here:
https://youtu.be/q-CKlBQdWTI?t=128
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

asgkhan wrote:I would take the above article with a pinch of salt. Looking at what Chicom pandas have done to Tibet, Bhutan should count their stars that they have the tiger in their corner.
That is a very "Indian" article - an article where the author actually looks at Bhutan as a sovereign nation that is allowed to have its own views and foreign policy - which reflects the Indian official viewpoint. With a population of 800,000 do you think that China would even consider this to be a state worth regarding as independent. Most of the comments in Chinese media and on my videos say that "China was merely building roads on its own territory". Anyone who spends a few minutes on Google earth will realize that these are the lies fed to Chinese. The Chinese troops on the ground, and road builders have actually kept more or less away from the area and suddenly they have got gaand mein khujli this year to see Bhutan as a pushover and build a road into Bhutan saying 'Fugoff this is our land"

And now every excuse is manufactured to say that Bhutan was about to give away its land to china and India is thwarting Bhutan's territorial gift to China. Balderdash.
Last edited by shiv on 24 Aug 2017 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
asgkhan
BRFite
Posts: 1834
Joined: 16 Apr 2009 17:19
Location: Helping BRF research how to seduce somali women

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by asgkhan »

The above (f)article reminds me of the cow droppings floated by Paki an@l-cysts of how India had problems with all the neighbours and was one step away from dis-integrating.

Seems like the author has used liberal dosage of imagination and selective truthiness to publish this apolgetic piece.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

asgkhan wrote:The above (f)article reminds me of the cow droppings floated by Paki an@l-cysts of how India had problems with all the neighbours and was one step away from dis-integrating.

Seems like the author has used liberal dosage of imagination and selective truthiness to publish this apolgetic piece.
The Chinese attitude of pretending to quote Bhutanese opinions as if they care makes a rude analogy appear in my mind. I will water down the rudeness:

It's like a man who indecently assaults another's wife/partner and then says 'But I heard her arguing with you and disagreeing with you, so she does not like you. It is OK for me to do what I want with her"
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14354
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Aditya_V »

Looking at Google earth, in the Chushul area, the Chinese have built thier last border post exactly 900 meters from the erstwhile Chushul airstrip. ANy idea instead of attacking through the Spanggur gap why did the Chinese choose to attaack through Rezang La in 1962 and who occupies Rezang La today alogn with Rezang La road. The Tsaka La Road running from Demchok to Chushul looks very vulnerable. Our Rezang La war memorial is on around 4KM away from the last Chinese Outpost on the Spanggur gap near the former Chushul airstrip.

Regarding Chip chap, I hardly see Chinese Infrastructure there today. I think this winter we must make sure the PLA and PLAAF keep significant troops on the Plateau, keeping 300k troops is unsustainable for them in the long term, so far like the Pakis they have been intruding whenever they feel like mostly in summer and Moonsoon season without feeling they need to defend thier areas.
TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by TKiran »

Aditya_V wrote: without feeling they need to defend thier areas
Beautiful observation. Han never considered militarily defending Tibet, it was left to diplomacy and propaganda, once they occupied Lhasa.

Tibet is expensive to defend for Han, but once HH Dalai Lama becomes the head of state of independent sovereign Tibet, it's very inexpensive for IA to defend Tibet. Very skeletal staff of IA is required. We can free up a lot of security forces once we bring independence to Tibet.

#occupy_Lhasa_to_free_Tibet
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5478
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Manish_P »

TKiran ji... IMHO the hashtag has some negative connotations due to the word 'Occupy'.

Please consider some alternative like #Liberate_Lhasa_to_free_Tibet or such like
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7793
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Prasad »

The chinese probably bulldozed whatever forest land was present way back when to build their side of the border roads to Myanmar. There is a picture of a section of a mountain with hairpin bends galore like the Transfagarasan highway. Two lane all the way iirc. We could do it and bring some prosperity to the border districts in Nagaland and assam. But, we'd also be destroying some prime forest regions. Might be ok with the chinese but not for us one would think. They'd need to get through some ridiculously dense jungles in our own side and the myanmarese side. Better to build our side to whatever extent is a compromise between environmental considerations and what the people and army need.

As for liberating and defending Tibet, the KunLun mountains form a nice enough boundary. I don't have maps right now but not every has or needs the Himalayas to defend against foreign invaders. Taklamakan lies on the NW and headwaters of the yellow river in the east. Nice enough one would think. Liberating Gansu might be tough but nobody is going to head to Xining anyway. Besides chin has multiple strategic installations inthe northen bit of Tibet. Their main hit will be mineral sources and a threat to the headwaters of their main rivers. Castles in the air right now but...
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

there is a place called vijaynagar on arunachal border. a 157km road of sorts was built from Miao in 70s but abandoned as pwd could not find resources to maintain. IAF build a ALG and thats how people get supplies there.

you can look it up on the map.

read about the plight how we abandon and betray our own people
https://yobindreams.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -district/

in 2013 jairam ramesh no less laid foundation stone of a new road to solve this problem. IOC was supposed to be this year
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 599731.cms

Image
Image
Image
Image
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

miao -> camp namdapha -> gandhigram -> ramnagar -> vijayanagar one can follow the noa dihing river and the tiny road parallel to it
https://earth.google.com/web/@27.487878 ... 995522t,0r

the terrain is not particularly hard...just sheer lack of attention and urgency
deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4024
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by deejay »

^^^I've landed in Vijaynagar. For An 32, Vijaynagar is a tough approach. We had a landing accident of an An 32 back in 01-02 time period. On foot we used to trek to Miao (which btw has a fantastic Tibetan carpet factory). Miao also has a beautiful IB on the river side. Further from Miao, the jungle sometimes becomes impenetrable. Dim Dams, Leeches make it tough. All forest country and heavy rains on the hills. Namdafa, I was told, is India's largest forest reserve and extends into Myanmar. There are tigers, red panda, bears, etc to be found but to sight a big beast one has to be lucky or unlucky. These forests are unlike other popular reserves. The foliage is thick and no roads for vehicles so any sighting will be from extremely close quarters and on foot.

Not on this trail but on another trek north of this place, a bear tailed us.

Even back in 01-02, we would wonder why no roads to Vijaynagar. It is relatively easier to cut a path there.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

This is the perpetual problem when dealing with India.Our neighbours get frustrated,our MEA and babudom look upon them as lesser mortals and promise much but b*gger all gets completed. Our efforts in Sri Lanka a prime example. You just have to compare the speed and quality of what China has achieved with Indian efforts.The "Delhi Durbar" deserves to be demolished with extreme prejudice. It is the stench of corruption that pervades Lutyens' beautiful capital zone that spreads across the rest of the nation and subcontinent. Perhaps India needs a southern capital like the Roman Empire,which had both Rome and Constantinople as capitals of the western and eastern halves of the empire.Bangalore has been destroyed completely by rapacious politcos and builders,where living is a nightmare,lakes catching fire,flooding,etc.,etc.,otherwise it would've been ideal,but the s.capital should not be a state capital.More on this theme elsewhere.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25099
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

China’s reaching as far as it can go - G.Parthasarathy, Business Line
Deng Xiao Ping who survived Maoist repression and became China’s Supreme Ruler from 1978 to 1997, set the stage for dumping Maoist communist dogma and releasing the creative energy of Chinese entrepreneurship. He rationalised discarding orthodox Communist ideology, proclaiming: “It does not matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it can kill mice”. Deng was the ‘Helmsman’ of China’s breathtaking economic growth which transformed if into the world’s economic powerhouse, within three decades.

Deng urged caution in the conduct of security policies. Shortly after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, Deng advised his countrymen: “Observe calmly, secure our position, cope with affairs calmly, hide our capabilities and bide our time.” He had practical reasons for offering this advice.

Lessons for China

China was badly mauled during the Ussuri River clashes with the Soviet Union in 1969. Worse was the humiliation China suffered following Deng’s visit to Washington in 1978, where he was feted, wined and dined by President Jimmy Carter and the barons of American business. Shortly thereafter, he proclaimed: “Vietnam is a hooligan. We must teach it a lesson.” However, when China invaded Vietnam in 1979, it was taught a lesson.

There was a similar setback in 1986, when the Peoples’ Liberation Army occupied vacated Indian posts in Sumdorong Chu/Wangdung in Arunachal Pradesh. India responded by airlifting forces to the McMahon Line along the China-India border. Deng warned India in 1986 that it would be taught a “lesson” if it did not withdraw its forces, with American Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger acting as an intermediary. New Delhi, however, stood firm and a military stalemate followed. External Affairs Minister ND Tiwari visited Beijing in May 1987. He clarified that India was not interested in escalating tensions while holding out the possibility of a visit to China by Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. Meanwhile, Arunachal Pradesh became a State of the Indian Union in February 1987.

The visit took place in November 1988, with Deng personally welcoming the ‘young’ Indian Prime Minister and setting the stage for seeking a new relationship with India. Chinese troops, however, pulled back fully from Sumdorong Chu only in 1993.


Noticeable change

Much has changed in the last three decades in China. It is now an economic powerhouse with a GDP five times that of India and defence spending six times higher. It has impressive defence production facilities and armed forces with huge firepower. But this economic rise has also led to China discarding Deng’s prescription of: “Hide our capabilities and bide our time.”

China is now flexing its economic and military muscle across Asia, while also exercising its maritime power across the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean regions. It is defining its maritime borders arbitrarily, drawing a “nine-dash line” to occupy and build military bases on several islands hundreds of miles from its shores, which are legally claimed by its neighbours. Its claims, many coercively enforced, have included unilaterally defining its maritime boundaries with South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia. Beijing has, however, been circumspect, in not biting off more than it can chew, in the case of Japan.

China has coerced a number of Asean countries not to support members like Vietnam and Indonesia which have demanded that Beijing should adhere to rulings of the UN Arbitration Tribunal on its maritime boundaries. This fear of Chinese power has torn apart Asean solidarity, with many members refusing to entertain any critical references to China at the recent ministerial conference in the Philippines. Not content with establishing its hegemony in Southeast Asia, China has also moved to contain and erode India’s influence in South Asia and the Indian Ocean. The ambivalence of the Trump administration towards containing Chinese power and its revocation of the Trans-Pacific (Economic) Partnership has raised serious doubts about American reliability as an economic and military partner in East and Southeast Asia. China has benefited immensely from this.

Pakistan is predictably the primary instrument for China’s policy of ‘containment’ of India. The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor stretching from PoK to the port of Gwadar has been accompanied by a decision to enhance Pakistan’s maritime power, with the supply of eight frigates and eight submarines to Pakistan. China has outmanoeuvred the US, Japan and India by strengthening its political and economic influence in the economic and political policies of Aung San Suu Kyi in Myanmar and is set to build the strategic port of Kyaukpyu there in the Bay of Bengal, while taking over Hambantota port in Sri Lanka.

Big miscalculation

Riding on hubris, China, gravely miscalculated what the response of India and Bhutan would be to its intrusion in Doklam. Beijing violated written agreements with Bhutan signed in 1988 and 1998, which pledged to “maintain status quo on the boundary as before March 1959”, and “refrain from taking unilateral action, or use of force, to change the status quo on the boundary”. It also violated the December 2012 “Common Understanding” reached by Special Representatives of India and China agreeing to maintain the status quo, pending a tripartite agreement on the location of the India-China-Bhutan tri-junction. China has now landed itself in a military and diplomatic quagmire. The Sikkim-Bhutan border is the worst location for China for a confrontation with India which has huge advantages in terms of terrain, logistics, firepower and numbers in this area. Any military misadventure could destroy the image of invincibility the Chinese have assiduously built by bullying weaker maritime neighbours.

China can possibly undertake intrusions in sections of its borders with India, where it enjoys logistical advantages. India has to be prepared for this. In the meantime, imaginative diplomacy is required to ensure China is given a face-saving way out from its present predicament.

A visit by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to China for the forthcoming BRICS summit would largely depend on his reading of Chinese intentions and flexibility.
Much will, however, depend on how President Xi Jinping decides to deal with the domestic challenges he is likely to face during the forthcoming Communist Party Congress, scheduled for later this year.

The writer is a former High Commissioner to Pakistan
Locked