Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

[Singha]

bhailog, while we howl about the lhasa to kathmandu railway which is relatively easy except the pass, cheen is going full steam ahead on a sichuan to lhasa railway across the rugged mountains this will bring chengdu and chongquing within easy reach. cost is not an issue.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/chengdu/ ... 241323.htm

you can see the pix in the above link::
Construction of China’s gravity-defying railway connecting Sichuan province with the cloud-capped capital of Tibet autonomous region, Lhasa, has accelerated since the start of the year according to workers involved in the project.

The 1,900-kilometer “second sky road” will be only the second railway to connect Tibet with the rest of the country, following the Qinghai-Tibet Railway, which opened in 2006.

An extraordinary engineering feat, the new railway will descend more than 3,000 meters in altitude from the high Tibetan Plateau, passing through a variety of different terrain before finally arriving in the Sichuan provincial capital, Chengdu, winning it the nickname the “giant rollercoaster”.

Since January, construction of the section of the line running from Chengdu to the city of Ya’an in western Sichuan has been in full swing, with some 26 bridges and seven tunnels being built.

The pressure is becoming particularly intense for workers constructing the Jin Jiguan No 2 Tunnel, a 1,739-meter tunnel passing through the Jin Jiguan mountain in Ya’an city.

The construction deadline for the tunnel is so tight that a 24-hour work schedule in shifts has been put in place to ensure it can be completed by March, according to a construction worker on the project interviewed by Xinhua News.

Zhong Shihua, a member of the construction team, who has been a tunnel worker for more than 20 years, said: “ I start work at 6:30 am. The truck I operate can pour 140 cubic meters of concrete in an eight-hour shift.”

[Prasad]

I do not know how much military benefit we will have but access to central Asia and beyond and development of Tibet,s mineral resources, of course completely with tibet,s permission and primarily for their benefit but will also benefit India. It will cut Hans to size of course.

Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get

Shiv saar,
it will be difficult but should be doable. Nobody is talking about maintaining a couple of standing IA strike/defense corps at the Tibetan-Chinese borders. We'd ideally have Tibetans doing their border security amply supported by us. We can build enough routes through AP & Sikkim to have a thoroughfare between India & Tibet/Lhasa year round. Or go through Nepal as well given we have open border with them anyway and the Chinese have built a highway (even if damaged right now due to that terrible earthquake). If we're going to make Tibet a buffer state with an autonomous govt in place, they will need to defend themselves. While not getting ahead of ourselves building castles literally in the air, we should aim to get this into place sometime in the future to cut down the prc to size. We can also build a route into Tibet via Ladakh. So it isn't that we don't have any all-year routes into Tibet. Just needs will and a metric ton of money. And initiative to plan and execute it. We have a pretty big Tibetan diaspora who would gladly go back to Tibet and work to reconstruct and rebuild their country. Not just in religious matters but in matters of state as well. And volunteer in a Tibetan Army that we can help build and arm.

I posted gas pipeline routes a page or two ago. Turkmenistan is getting screwed because we said no to that TAPI pipeline and PRC rejected the Line D and are suffering from no growth in oil prospects. If we can route that oil through Iran into Chabahar and ship it out we will have a direct route into CA oil in the short term. If Tibet is freed, we could route one of the western pipelines/build additional ones to Tibet and thence to India via aksai chin or something. So it isn't like we don't have options. Grand plans need grand vision and utter ruthlessness.

[Singha]

and to rub salt in the wound even the embassy in india is issuing press releases - this is not empty boast as the construction pics show
http://in.china-embassy.org/eng/xzjx/t1433400.htm

Sichuan-Tibet Railway extending to plateau
2017/01/24
At the beginning of 2017, 26 bridges and seven tunnels between Chengdu Plain and Ya'an City were under busy construction. Lhasa-Nyingchi Railway, a segment of Sichuan-Tibet Railway, was built in full swing.

Sichuan-Tibet Railway, a key project in the 13th Five-Year Plan (2016-20), is the second “heavenly road” after Qinghai-Tibet Railway. It starts from Chengdu, goes through Ya'an, Garze, Chamdo and Nyingch, and finally arrives at Lhasa. The 1,900-kilometer railway perches at over 3,000 meters above sea level. It will cross many fault zones. It's like the largest rollercoaster in the world.

With a total length of 1,739 meters, Jinji Guan No.2 tunnel is the first tunnel from hilly area in Sichuan to Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. It is expected to be completed in March.

The railway is divided into three sections from west to east: Lhasa-Nyingchi, Nyingchi-Kangting, and Kangting-Chengdu. In June of 2018, Chengdu-Ya’an Railway will be open to traffic. The survey and research of Ya'an-Kangting Railway has been finished. With an investment of about 36.67 billion yuan, 435-kilometer Lhasa-Nyingchi Railway has started building in June of 2015. Kangting-Nyingchi Railway is the longest segment, which is also the most difficult part in the construction of Chengdu-Tibet Railway.

The survey of Sichuan-Tibet Railway began in the early days of the PRC. In 2014, the railway has started building. It will meander through mountains and cross the major rivers such as Menjiang, Lancangjiang, Jinshajiang and Yarlung Zangbo, the highest of which is about 4,400 meters. To travel from Chengdu to Lhasa will take about 13 hours by train

[Singha]

we dhoti shiver and howl for 10 years at the relatively minor rohtang tunnel and just compare to the investment ,speed and han ferocity of the above project.

[shiv]

bhailog, while we howl about the lhasa to kathmandu railway which is relatively easy except the pass, cheen is going full steam ahead on a sichuan to lhasa railway across the rugged mountains this will bring chengdu and chongquing within easy reach. cost is not an issue.

Yes. This is one more "construction activity" which they can now afford. But it's not going to lower Tibet's altitude or make it easier to live there. But they will probably make Southern Tibet a tourist destination for Chinese

[Singha]

yes chongqing and chengdu are large prosperous cities the two most important in the hinterland, followed by kunming probably.
some of the chinese inland cities are located in narrow valleys, and dense with skyscrapers due to limited land...almost like old towns that suddenly became metros

[shiv]

Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get

Shiv saar,
it will be difficult but should be doable. Nobody is talking about maintaining a couple of standing IA strike/defense corps at the Tibetan-Chinese borders. We'd ideally have Tibetans doing their border security amply supported by us. We can build enough routes through AP & Sikkim to have a thoroughfare between India & Tibet/Lhasa year round. Or go through Nepal as well given we have open border with them anyway and the Chinese have built a highway (even if damaged right now due to that terrible earthquake). If we're going to make Tibet a buffer state with an autonomous govt in place, they will need to defend themselves. While not getting ahead of ourselves building castles literally in the air, we should aim to get this into place sometime in the future to cut down the prc to size. We can also build a route into Tibet via Ladakh. So it isn't that we don't have any all-year routes into Tibet. Just needs will and a metric ton of money. And initiative to plan and execute it. We have a pretty big Tibetan diaspora who would gladly go back to Tibet and work to reconstruct and rebuild their country. Not just in religious matters but in matters of state as well. And volunteer in a Tibetan Army that we can help build and arm.

I posted gas pipeline routes a page or two ago. Turkmenistan is getting screwed because we said no to that TAPI pipeline and PRC rejected the Line D and are suffering from no growth in oil prospects. If we can route that oil through Iran into Chabahar and ship it out we will have a direct route into CA oil in the short term. If Tibet is freed, we could route one of the western pipelines/build additional ones to Tibet and thence to India via aksai chin or something. So it isn't like we don't have options. Grand plans need grand vision and utter ruthlessness.

It's not about feasibility. It's about money and value for money. It's also not about "We can find the funds if we have the will". It's about asking what is so attractive about this that the people with money will open their purses to help achieve this. Ultimately it's about the economy. The economy is tied to security. If security weakens the economy, then security also gets weak

[shiv]

we dhoti shiver and howl for 10 years at the relatively minor rohtang tunnel and just compare to the investment ,speed and han ferocity of the above project.

Well neither your parents nor mine had to undergo re education in camps. They were free to "yanjaay maadi" and produce us and some of us have several brothers and sisters. The Chinese are where they are because they did tough stuff back then. So if we sit now and say "We are useless" remember that our parents had a better time than older generation Chinese. Might as well curse our parents - if it comes to complaining

[DavidD]

What happened to Napoleon, but the PLA escaped b4 it happened to them: If Indian jarnails and netas had studied history the PLA would have been finished in 1962: From WikiPurana.

The French invasion of Russia, known in Russia as the Patriotic War of 1812 began on 24 June when Napoleon's Grande Armée crossed the Neman River in an attempt to engage and defeat the Russian army. Napoleon hoped to compel Tsar Alexander I of Russia to cease trading with British merchants through proxies in an effort to pressure the United Kingdom to sue for peace. ..

The Grande Armée was a very large force, numbering 680,000 soldiers (including 300,000 of French departments). ..long marches ..rapidly through Western Russia in an attempt to bring the Russian army to battle, winning a number of minor engagements and a major battle at Smolensk in August. ... Russian army slipped away ..and continued to retreat into Russia, while leaving Smolensk to burn.

As the Russian army fell back, Cossacks were given the task of burning villages, towns and crops... The actions forced the French to rely on a supply system that was incapable of feeding the large army in the field. Starvation and privation compelled French soldiers to leave their camps at night in search of food. These men were frequently confronted by parties of Cossacks, who captured or killed them.

The Russian army retreated into Russia for almost three months. The continual retreat and the loss of lands to the French upset the Russian nobility. They pressured Alexander I to relieve the commander of the Russian army, Field Marshal Barclay. Alexander I complied, appointing an old veteran, Prince Mikhail Kutuzov, to take over command of the army. However, for two more weeks Kutuzov continued to retreat as his predecessor had done.

On 7 September, the French caught up with the Russian army which had dug itself in on hillsides... seventy miles west of Moscow. .. bloodiest single-day action of the Napoleonic Wars until that point, involving more than 250,000 soldiers and resulting in 70,000 casualties. The French gained a tactical victory, but at the cost of 49 general officers and thousands of men. The Russian army was able to extricate itself and withdrew the following day.. Napoleon entered Moscow a week later. .. Russians had evacuated the city, and the city's governor, Count Fyodor Rostopchin, ordered several strategic points in Moscow set ablaze. ..The loss of Moscow did not compel Alexander I to sue for peace, and both sides were aware that Napoleon's position grew worse with each passing day. Napoleon stayed on in Moscow looking to negotiate a peace, his hopes fed in part by a disinformation campaign informing the Emperor of supposed discontent and fading morale in the Russian camp. After staying a month Napoleon moved his army out southwest toward Kaluga, where Kutuzov was encamped with the Russian army.

The French advance toward Kaluga was checked by a Russian corps. .. Despite holding a superior position, the Russians retreated following a sharp engagement, confirming that the Russians would not commit themselves to a pitched battle. His troops exhausted, with few rations, no winter clothing, and his remaining horses in poor condition, Napoleon was forced to retreat. ..In the weeks that followed the Grande Armée starved and suffered from the onset of the Russian Winter. Lack of food and fodder for the horses, hypothermia from the bitter cold and persistent attacks upon isolated troops from Russian peasants and Cossacks led to great losses in men, and a general loss of discipline and cohesion in the army. When the remnants of Napoleon's army crossed the Berezina River in November, only 27,000 effective soldiers remained; the Grand Armée had lost some 380,000 men dead and 100,000 captured...The campaign effectively ended on 14 December 1812, not quite six months from its outset, with the last French troops leaving Russian soil.

And this is exactly what will happen to India if India tried to take Tibet. The PLA learned their lesson from Napolean, it seems like all of you except shiv need to do the same.

[Suresh S]

so china has god given right to climb up mountains occupy a country against it,s wishes, kill their people, exploit their natural resources without their permission, threaten other nations with whom they never had a border before, now try to take lands even of these neighbours but hey those neighbours do not have the right to do the same to chinese.Napoleon be damned.

[dharamsala]

What happened to Napoleon, but the PLA escaped b4 it happened to them: If Indian jarnails and netas had studied history the PLA would have been finished in 1962: From WikiPurana.

And this is exactly what will happen to India if India tried to take Tibet. The PLA learned their lesson from Napolean, it seems like all of you except shiv need to do the same.

Poor analogy and we should let the Tibetans decide for themselves.

Napoleon was an occupying force (i.e PLA) - in this case the Tibetans will support a liberating force (Indian forces)

[shiv]

so china has god given right to climb up mountains occupy a country against it,s wishes, kill their people, exploit their natural resources without their permission, threaten other nations with whom they never had a border before, now try to take lands even of these neighbours but hey those neighbours do not have the right to do the same to chinese.Napoleon be damned.

I think this was very well explained in the Chinese psyche thread with a story that went something like this

A poor man has a beautiful and expensive necklace and a strong man came and took it from him. Someone else came and kicked the strong man and took the necklace for himself. And do it went on until the emperor, with his army got the necklace and kept it. The Chinese moral is not that the poor man was wronged by others. It is that if there is something valuable - take it and keep it if you are strong enough. If you are not strong enough the strongest man has the "right" to keep it. Mao's dictum is a modern day version of this "Power flows from the barrel of a gun"

It is a Christian (and now western) attitude to speak of "rights" - i.e that God gives rights, not man. But even for them the rights were given by the Church, which had the power and the money. If we have the power, we can do whatever we want. But with power must come wisdom - we must not do something that makes us weak. What nation X does is not necessarily what we must copy.

[DavidD]

so china has god given right to climb up mountains occupy a country against it,s wishes, kill their people, exploit their natural resources without their permission, threaten other nations with whom they never had a border before, now try to take lands even of these neighbours but hey those neighbours do not have the right to do the same to chinese.Napoleon be damned.

You do realize you're talking about rights to a Chinese guy, yes? That's a Western construct, we don't believe in such things. There's might and there's only might, no one mighty was there to stop China from taking over Tibet, just like no one mighty was there to stop Peter the Great from taking over Siberia. That will no longer be the case for Tibet just as that will no longer be the case for Siberia.

EDIT: I see shiv has already beaten me to the punch, insightful man he is.

[shiv]

Nehru was a mentally colonized victim of Western notions imagining that
1. India had a moral right on Aksai Chin
2. The Chinese would respect "international treaties"

He had no clue about the Chinese, but then even westerners had no clue other than saying that the Chinese are "inscrutable". The Chinese tried to teach us a lesson but we did not learn it fully. We neither learned what the Chinese wanted us to learn (i.e to respect them and their power) nor did we learn that western notions of "buffer states" and "rights" etc all flow from national economic and military power, not moral power and international treaties/kumbaya singing.

All nations are greedy bhenchods. The only route to survival and domination is to be a greedy bhenchod.

[ldev]

We neither learned what the Chinese wanted us to learn (i.e to respect them and their power) nor did we learn that western notions of "buffer states" and "rights" etc all flow from national economic and military power, not moral power and international treaties/kumbaya singing

Which brings me to something maybe OT, but the concept of being the best/largest/strongest/most powerful in the world in whatever arena we are in is something that has to be inculcated in Indians. That is the only way to get that economic and military power. The Chinese want to be the largest economy in the world and have the most powerful military. They want to have the fastest trains and the largest high speed train network in the world. They want to have the longest network of highways in the world etc. etc. etc.

Other than Bada Bhai Ambani who to his credit has built a world scale refining complex in Gujarat which other Indian entity has such aspirations? And what does India aspire for? Without articulating such goals, we'll just bumble along with perpetual problems with Pakistan, BD and Sri Lanka and Nepal also coming under Chinese sway.

[Singha]

seems to be me it will be the chinese who will have to do the running. with long and exposed supply chain over 1000s of km of semi desert... not exactly the thick forests under which the vietcong ran their supply chain.

we can sneak back to our passes and caves for supplies while cheen supply dumps will be meat on the plate in the exposed plateau.

so there is great benefit in taking flat adjacent areas of tibet and using that as a bait to pull the dragon into exposed areas to get thrashed.

we can divide up tibet perhaps into a south tibet republic allied to india and a 'democratic' north tibet vassal state of the han. 50-50 in the spirit of panchsheel and asian brotherhood they so loudly proclaim. this was exactly what banditji should have done. and this is what was done by wiser heads in the case of north and south korea and east and west germany and north and south yemen.

NOBODY with any sense gives up control of land, no matter what value or lack of it.

even tiny rocks like diego garcia and reunion islands are now strategic assets in the IOR.

[shiv]

They want to have the fastest trains and the largest high speed train network in the world. They want to have the longest network of highways in the world etc. etc. etc.

I was going to make the following post anyway - but your post just made it a convenient starting point.

The west started with notions of God being the ultimate arbiter and moved on (with the rise of science) into believing that humans are masters of their own destiny. The West had visions of their own destiny - and their destiny was control of nature (so they would not be cold and hungry) and control of geography so they could travel anywhere safely. The western "vision" just 5 decades ago was about colonizing the oceans and space, complete leisure with robots doing the work, and ease of travel to the extent of vanishing from one place and reappearing in another and never growing old & becoming immortal. They had vision but only some of it was achievable

The Chinese vision appears to be simply to compete and beat the west. I see nothing new or innovative.

What is the Indian vision? The Indian vision is (If I may say so) based on the Indian past of what life means. It is not about dominating nature. It is not about dominating other nations. Using the western side of my mind I would call Indians losers. But it is easier for me to live in the west and join the west than changing Indian vision about what is "the right thing to do" in this world.

[yensoy]

^^^^ The economics of a lot of those ego boosting ventures is highly suspect. We look at the bottom line, then ponder over it for decades, then get stuck in legalese (land acquisition, wildlife protection, studies...) for more decades.

The question is what happens to China after all their infrastructure is built. Will they have the required GDP to sustain it? Because infrastructure is expensive to maintain, especially when their labour rate crosses $10/hour or more. Where will the next dose of growth come from? Growth is opium and without growth China will collapse, not just economically but politically.

We have a lot to learn from China and a long way to go, but like in Doklam, China doesn't have everything figured out either.

[ldev]

[But it is easier for me to live in the west and join the west than changing Indian vision about what is "the right thing to do" in this world.

Fair enough. But with that view on the one hand and on the other hand the Chinese aim of global domination, be prepared to feel the Chinese squeeze for all of China's neighbors including India.

[shiv]

[But it is easier for me to live in the west and join the west than changing Indian vision about what is "the right thing to do" in this world.

Fair enough. But with that view on the one hand and on the other hand the Chinese aim of global domination, be prepared to feel the Chinese squeeze for all of China's neighbors including India.

In fact the Indian vision is not all that bad. Chinas vision will be met and thwarted. Dreaming of global domination is easy.

[ldev]

we can divide up tibet perhaps into a south tibet republic allied to india and a 'democratic' north tibet vassal state of the han. 50-50 in the spirit of panchsheel and asian brotherhood they so loudly proclaim. this was exactly what banditji should have done. and this is what was done by wiser heads in the case of north and south korea and east and west germany and north and south yemen.

NOBODY with any sense gives up control of land, no matter what value or lack of it.

even tiny rocks like diego garcia and reunion islands are now strategic assets in the IOR.

Exactly, even partial control of Tibet, say the southern part would give India some leeway. In a battle you may suffer some reverses, you should be able to fall back even 50 kms if needed on the Tibet plateau, regroup, consolidate and counter attack. At this point in time, if you fall back 50 kms from Dokala, you will be in Siliguri.

[asgkhan]

If winnie the poo was so sure footed and confident after mugging up little led book of suntz-poo he would not have found himself in this position of sitting on a branch with a axe in his hand, threatening to chop it up.

Hope the ITBP and other units, carry baseball bats, hockey sticks, brass knuckles and tazers. Send these noodle brains back with broken kneecaps.

[shiv]

Exactly, even partial control of Tibet, say the southern part would give India some leeway. In a battle you may suffer some reverses, you should be able to fall back even 50 kms if needed on the Tibet plateau, regroup, consolidate and counter attack. At this point in time, if you fall back 50 kms from Dokala, you will be in Siliguri.

If you look at the geography of Chinese disputes with India - their problem is with all the high altitude plateau areas (Tibet level) that we control. These areas are in Ladakh, Uttaranchal, Sikkim and to a small extent near Tawang. In the far east where the Chinese claim all of Arunachal pradesh their geography is mountains with forest - same as Arunachal.

Our problem is that we control very small parts of plateau and behind us are mountains. If we go down into the mountains - the Chinese logistics lines get stretched and they can be stopped, but that does not help us to control the plateau.

[SSridhar]

China wants to go back to ‘1959 LAC’ - Atul Aneja, The Hindu

China on Monday urged India to abide by the Line of Actual Control (LAC) position of 1959, following last week’s scuffle between troops of the two countries along the Pangong lake in Ladakh.

To a question, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying accused Indian troops of undertaking “violent actions” and injuring Chinese personnel.

The Ministry urged India to abide by the “1959 LAC” — an apparent reference to the alignment espoused by former Chinese Premier Zhou en Lai in a letter to Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru. In his 2016 book, Choices: Inside the Making of India’s Foreign Policy , former National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon points out that in the proposal of November 1959, the Chinese describe the LAC “only in general terms on maps not to scale”. India rejected the proposal in 1959 and 1962.

Zhou en Lai then wrote to Nehru that in the eastern sector, the line “coincides in the main with the so-called McMahon Line, and in the western and middle sectors, it coincides in the main with the traditional customary line which has consistently been pointed out by China”.

[Philip]

India should demand that the Chinese immediately vacate Aksai Chin and their forces in POK.If they can demand that we withdraw our foirces,so should we demand that they withdraw their forces from their illegal occupation.

[pankajs]

Nehru, like thousands of desis even today, knew that armies are supposed to fight, but did not know that geography, logistics, equipment and the application of air power appropriately etc are essential factors in an army's ability to fight. "Jao. Unko bhagao. Jaldi" is what he thought he could say to get things done like a landlord ordering his chowkidar to chase urchins who have trespassed on his property.

Well put. Either we don't look at map or we look at political map.

1. Do we have *adequate* infra to support the *fast* logistics of the current deployment on the LAC? GOI itself does not believe that.
2. If we can barely keep the logistics going till the LAC how in the world are we going to wrest control of Tibet?
3. If the Chinese logistic chain are *stretched* believe me Indian logistic chain wouldn't be any better when we are at the northern border of Tibet.
4. Going by the current map where does control of Tibet grant us access to Central Asia?

[Singha]

>>Indian logistic chain wouldn't be any better when we are at the northern border of Tibet.

I am not talking about whole of tibet, but a southern tibetan republic of lands adjacent to india mainly focussed on aksai hind and adjacent tracts . part of it can be resupplied via nepal also like mustang region. manasarovar will find wide support in indian public given its religious importance.
chumbi valley should never have been in tibet to start with.

[pankajs]

I do not know how much military benefit we will have but access to central Asia and beyond and development of Tibet,s mineral resources, of course completely with tibet,s permission and primarily for their benefit but will also benefit India. It will cut Hans to size of course.

Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get

Agree. Our path to Central Asia is via POK.

Suresh S, As far as I can see Tibet does not border Central Asia. What gave you the idea that controlling Tibet would grant us access to CA?

[pankajs]

>>Indian logistic chain wouldn't be any better when we are at the northern border of Tibet.

I am not talking about whole of tibet, but a southern tibetan republic of lands adjacent to india mainly focussed on aksai hind and adjacent tracts . part of it can be resupplied via nepal also like mustang region. manasarovar will find wide support in indian public given its religious importance.
chumbi valley should never have been in tibet to start with.

1. So this *lust* to Control Tibet is out of the window right?
2. If we could RAM our way through *political* Nepal why are we so bothered by the Chicken's neck? Couldn't we RAM through *political* Nepal to Sikkim?
3. I haven't looked at the Nepal-China border but I believe that section too is very dicey based on the what I have read about Nepal-China trade and the mansarovar route. I am not talking of internal politics of Nepal here.
4. Aksi Hind terrain is truly terrible. But before that internal logistic to the LAC is pretty thin. We have a tough time getting to Leh. Look at the topographical map of Himachal Pradesh. Political maps would have you think that we could just drive through HP at full speed and in a straight line. Facts on the ground are different.

The problem is political maps make things look easy as does a plain chess board. Move piece from one square to the other.

[pankajs]

Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get

Shiv saar,
it will be difficult but should be doable. Nobody is talking about maintaining a couple of standing IA strike/defense corps at the Tibetan-Chinese borders. We'd ideally have Tibetans doing their border security amply supported by us. We can build enough routes through AP & Sikkim to have a thoroughfare between India & Tibet/Lhasa year round. Or go through Nepal as well given we have open border with them anyway and the Chinese have built a highway (even if damaged right now due to that terrible earthquake). If we're going to make Tibet a buffer state with an autonomous govt in place, they will need to defend themselves. While not getting ahead of ourselves building castles literally in the air, we should aim to get this into place sometime in the future to cut down the prc to size. We can also build a route into Tibet via Ladakh. So it isn't that we don't have any all-year routes into Tibet. Just needs will and a metric ton of money. And initiative to plan and execute it. We have a pretty big Tibetan diaspora who would gladly go back to Tibet and work to reconstruct and rebuild their country. Not just in religious matters but in matters of state as well. And volunteer in a Tibetan Army that we can help build and arm.

I posted gas pipeline routes a page or two ago. Turkmenistan is getting screwed because we said no to that TAPI pipeline and PRC rejected the Line D and are suffering from no growth in oil prospects. If we can route that oil through Iran into Chabahar and ship it out we will have a direct route into CA oil in the short term. If Tibet is freed, we could route one of the western pipelines/build additional ones to Tibet and thence to India via aksai chin or something. So it isn't like we don't have options. Grand plans need grand vision and utter ruthlessness.

WRT the first highlight, The Chinese will think the same or nearly the same way as we are thinking now. How much will it cost to push India back off the Tibetan plateau. After all our troop deployment will be *thin* going by what you have proposed and the Chinese in this case will be next to their heartland, able to muster a far bigger force and better logistics.

BTW, how many fighting fit Tibetan's can you muster from their already small population to guard the proposed Tibet-China border? So unless you are ready for *heavy* deployment and have the logistics infra to back it it will not succeed.

WRT the 2nd highlight. Man you make it sound so simple! Forget about getting across the LAC just look at the routes supplying the LAC. Even on a 2D google maps you will find some very surprising roads which should tell you something about the terrain on the Indian side. You can start at Nathu La tracking back to get an idea of the Sikkim sector. We first need to sort out our access to LAC before we think of taking the fight to Tibet.

WRT the 3rd highlight. Before you build via Ladakh we have to build TO Ladakh else how will we support the forward deployed IA? Again pick a spot on the LAC from where you will launch IA into Tibet, fire Google map in 3D mode start tracking back. And while you are at it do a terrain study of Himachal too. While all of us are staring ahead into Tibet our problem is staring at us right behind our backs.

WRT 4th point. It is not good to place you faith on *something*. Forget the terrain for the moment. Please look at the maps and let us know where Turkmenistan borders Tibet or Aksi Hind?

Having *Grand vision* is good but building *Air Castles* is not. Just look at the map and connect Turkmenistan with India via Tibet/Aksi Hind.

[SSridhar]

The Pamir region is one of the most inaccessible parts of the world. The narrow 20-Km wide (average) Wakhan Corridor, which was artificially created between India & Tajikistan as part of the Great Game, has 30 peaks over 20,000 feet each. There are some trade routes but I doubt if we can build anything significantly there in a reasonable period of time, say 5 years or so, for a significant volume of trade.

[Singha]

at one time the mountains of eastern tibet also looked impassable..until the chinese are now building a railway across it.

these rich water resources cannot be left in the hands of cheen. its wont be long before they deny us all water under the pretext of everything incl global warming. NE still will get plenty of local rain to feed the smaller rivers but narth india will suffer pretty badly cheen digs their claws in and starts piping the water here and there

https://earth.google.com/web/@32.602271 ... 308495t,0r

water and a vast strategic space to enter the eurasia steppe were why they went into tibet in the first place. access from their side too has never been easy or cheap.

[pankajs]

^^
This I agree with BUT for that my first priority will be to build up the logistics infra backing the LAC deployment. Our problem is in our mountains not on Tibet.

Once we are fully prepared on our side we can think of making some forays into Tibet. The Chinese built infra will come in hand at that time provide we are willing to risk a fight with China. It will then be a matter of political will and not logistics chain.

BTW, I wouldn't worry about their Railway projects. No railway will compensate for what is lacking in Tibet i.e Oxygen and food/gasoline supply. Till they do not flatten all the mountains and ridges the couple of roads and railway line will remain a choke points for India to squeeze if we can muster up the political will.

The water diversion is coming but it is still 20-30 years out. Build up the LAC infra and IA with future deployment on Tibetan plateau in mind.

Ideally Tibet should be independent with both an Indian and a Chinese consulate in Lahsa.

[Marten]

instead of striking at the logistical chain and finding ways of setting them back by a decade, we are wasting time matching f*rt for f*rt. A few boys from Chakrata (Buddhist or Bon) could easily bring down two bridges and allow the Chinese to start putting their supposedly tremendous capabilities to work. Let's them give lots to think about and do!

[Iyersan]

Any comments on Rajnath's statement. Or do we neglect it as a rant from an old Imbecile?? Does it add value or significance to the existing standoff?

[shiv]

at one time the mountains of eastern tibet also looked impassable..until the chinese are now building a railway across it.

these rich water resources cannot be left in the hands of cheen. its wont be long before they deny us all water under the pretext of everything incl global warming. NE still will get plenty of local rain to feed the smaller rivers but narth india will suffer pretty badly cheen digs their claws in and starts piping the water here and there

https://earth.google.com/web/@32.602271 ... 308495t,0r

water and a vast strategic space to enter the eurasia steppe were why they went into tibet in the first place. access from their side too has never been easy or cheap.

Technically eastern mountains were never impassable. Just inconvenient

Saar - my next video is Chinese dams. As always it is geography geography geography Judge for yourself..

[sum]

Any comments on Rajnath's statement. Or do we neglect it as a rant from an old Imbecile?? Does it add value or significance to the existing standoff?

Not sure why you would refer to your own country's Home minster as a "old imbicle"?

[pankajs]

Here is an example of the kind of challenge we face to support the deployment at the LAC. This is on the way to Nathu La in Sikkim but it is still passable unlike many other points. Forget about the condition of the road for the moment but how fast can we travel through such a maze? Is this the the kind of Infra that we will use to take the fight to liberate Tibet? Google for Zuluk.

One hillside taken out and you will only have an Heliborne air bridge to resupply LAC.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/Nat ... 88.8308771

[SSridhar]

at one time the mountains of eastern tibet also looked impassable..until the chinese are now building a railway across it.

Of course, but we can never compare our infrastructure building capabilities with those of China, can we? That was why I said, 'I doubt if we can build anything significantly there in a reasonable period of time, say 5 years or so, for a significant volume of trade'. Even that would be an understatement.

[Vidur]

Yes, the complexities in our system do preclude us from looking at these long term infrastructure projects. There are enough issues with one MSC. It is unrealistic to look at another one.