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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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pankajs
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2017 22:34

^^
Butt ..butt the bious Chinese claimed it was Chinese territory. How can there be any doubt! I understand you not believing GOI/Modi/ but do you not believe the Chinese?

How can someone NOT believe the Chinese while the Bhutanese are "suspiciously silent"? What more is required?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 07 Sep 2017 22:40

Admin please shut down the trolls here. (IMHO Chola is not a troll, just a hyper-excited juvenile :-) - joking only)

Never be fixated on 1962. That is the past. If you try to avenge 1962 you will make the memory of 1962 fade away because your next war will result in a bigger defeat than 1962. What if Pakistan tries to avenge 1971? Or 1965? Or 1948? We know how it will end because an offensive into enemy territory is 10x more difficult than defending your own territory.

We need to move on. We already had 1967 and 1986 (hope I got the dates right) and now we have 2017. 1962 was a disaster because of the way it was mismanaged. We were caught on the backfoot and we tried to do exactly what Chola prescribes here - go for an all out assault - and we failed spectacularly. The lesson or revenge is not to repeat an assault and hope to win (that is unlikely to happen), rather to never be on the backfoot. We need to outmaneuver the Chinese at their own game. It's a judo move - use the opponent's weight and force to destabilize the opponent. That will be the sweetest revenge.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kiranA » 07 Sep 2017 22:43

shiv wrote:
kiranA wrote:
Shiv, india moved troops in to their or bhutans territory. And you blame their reaction as " heated rhetoric " . How exactly should one rhetoric when somebody else's troops enter their claimed land ? Mildly you think ?

What do you mean "Bhutan's territory" It was Chinese wasn't it? Please tell me whose territory it was. Clearly. Then we can talk. If it was Bhutanese territory why did the Chinese go "more than mild" rhetoric?

kiranA wrote:China stopping road is really no big deal. The road already is already within 100 meters of Indian border. Think about it 100 metres . Also no public commitment from china that they will stop .

China stopped building a road on their own territory because Indians objected? Why did they do that? because they wanted Modi to smile?


kiranA wrote:Seriously what is india objective here ? If it is Indian border then you got a Chinese road at 100 meters. India didn't change that . China temporarily did not curve that road in to Bhutan. If it is bhutan concern then nothing changed on the ground china already built a lot of road in disputed territory and did not give up its intent to build more.And goi did not even publicly challenge the intent of china to continue to do what it wants to
Do.why ?
I have already agred with you that India lost. It was Chinese territory. We moved in. We moved out and China will build a road later. Fine. We will put fingers in Musharraf and watch them build that road. Later


kiranA wrote: In addition Bhutan is suspiciously silent.
Methinks you are selectively deaf. Or blind

kiranA wrote:It's not about whose side you are on . its about not deluding oneself.
Cut the crap sir. Stick to facts

kiranA wrote:So you still have china transgressing well in to Bhutan border, a road within 100 meters of our border and they got modi smiling at their summit..

Was it Chinese territory or Bhutanese territory. Let us get that clear.


You are being deliberately obfuscate.It is disputed territory that's why I used Chinese Bhutan or claimed territory. What is that you are aggressively looking to get clarified on there.

Bhutan is not silent ? Wouldn't any country raise hell if another country occupied its land. Bhutan has voice in uno but absolutely did not raise it . Ny times said Bhutan actually did not even want India to interfere . Bhutanese media is silent.

Anytime you let solders cross the border you put themin line of fire- it's immaterial that there is an actual gun thruster to their face.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2017 22:46

Here .. from the horses mouth .. the bestest of the best source on China and India too ... oh on Bhutan too.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1063523.shtml
India removes troops from China's territory in Doklam
One June 18, Indian troops illegally crossed the border and trespassed into Chinese territory in Doklam.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 07 Sep 2017 22:49

Del
Last edited by TKiran on 08 Sep 2017 15:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2017 22:49

kiranA wrote:You are being deliberately obfuscate.It is disputed territory that's why I used Chinese Bhutan or claimed territory.
I am trying to obfuscate? What is Chinese Bhutan? Like Gobi Manchurian? IndianChinese?

kiranA wrote:Bhutan is not silent ? Wouldn't any country raise hell if another country occupied its land. Bhutan has voice in uno but absolutely did not raise it
I heard Bhutan loud and clear. GoI heard Bhutan loud and clear. Only you did not

kiranA wrote:Anytime you let solders cross the border you put themin line of fire- it's immaterial that there is an actual gun thruster to their face.

I agree. That is why i said that we should stop putting soldiers in the line of fire and maybe put gau rakshaks.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kiranA » 07 Sep 2017 23:00

Just take a step back and think. Building a road in remote china Bhutan border is not very high on china agenda . Core china is atleast 2000 miles away. But strongly securing the border is obviously high on india agenda. In this light shouldn't india have a better vision than ..." hey we temporarily stopped their bored construction crew at 100 meters from the border. We will keep silent when they assert their right to build at it in future ".

Also till now I haven't seen Indian response to Chinese claims . They released a 21 page document articulating their stance on a territory 2000 miles away from their core areas . What is goi official stance? Why won't they tell people what it is ?wherr is the earnestness

When will this country government stop treating its citizens like children ?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kiranA » 07 Sep 2017 23:00

Ok just saw Ramana post . Will stop.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby salaam » 07 Sep 2017 23:05

ramana wrote:Both the kirans, Why don't you stop posting as you don't like the forum consensus.

I have never seen so much defeatist mind set even in the epics.


Thank you kind sir. Now a similar one for Dipanker (worst of the lot) please, if you may.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 07 Sep 2017 23:06

TKiran I get the first part. I don't like the second part.
The forum has given ample opportunity to express the views but continued holding grievance is not going to be fruitful.


Folks please get this. The Forum is Bharat Rakshak not China or TSP or US rakshaks.
So when morons like MKB write op-eds saying India is defeated and members echo it here its not allowed.
Would like to STFU to MKB. I can't.
But I can to those who echo it here.

Many service people and opinion makers visit the form.
its very disheartening when members write tripe and no admin action happens under free speech principles.

As Tallyrand said "Liberty is the right to do the things the laws allows!"

So next post will get banned for quite a long time.

----
In 1999 when Captain Kalia, patrol went missing and B.Raman made some insensitive remarks and soldiers being paid to die...

I did send him an email to stop that nonsense.
And he did honor the forum by not continuing.
Point is we asked the greats and they obliged.
Who are we to keep disparaging soldiers who confront the enemies everyday?
-------

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Sep 2017 23:10

Beloveds: Doklam is done. Pangong Tso is done. Chinese are sore at both outcomes, both officially and unofficially, enough said about results. Indian public does not want war with People's Republic of China, or Pakistan, not even with Fiji or Mauritius. People do not want war with anyone.

Let's move on, hain?

P.S. pls kindly reactivate "Morbid Rubbernecking" dhaga? :mrgreen: Events moving along in Korea/NorthEast Asia.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2017 23:18

https://www.forbes.com/sites/douglasbul ... 3017189382
China Tries To Make A Friend Of India At BRICS Meeting, But Is It Too Late?

Douglas Bulloch


A little over a week ago China and India were carefully walking back from a near three-month standoff in the Himalayas during which both sides had spoken of war. At the time I suspected that Chinese President Xi Jinping was concerned about the potential loss of face occasioned by the prospective absence of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi from the BRICS summit this week in Xiamen.

Now that the meeting has taken place, however, it seems I underestimated the urgency of ensuring Modi attended, and how peripheral Doklam must be to China's wider strategic vision.

In fairness, China may have simply misjudged the Doklam incident. For all the talk of China's salami-slicing territorial expansion, the original decision to build the road that India objected to may have been taken locally and simply not been fully thought through -- creating a headache for Beijing -- rather than being a plan hatched at the highest levels. Nonetheless, the firmness of India's response and the disregard it showed for China's clear demands that it withdraw from Chinese sovereign territory was striking. It was expected that Modi would receive some cold shoulder this week even though China had been obliged to climb down to ensure his presence. Yet as we have seen this week, nothing could be further from the truth.

China comes a'courting

During the Doklam hostilities, one important revelation was the increasing warmth shared between New Delhi and Washington. The strategic implications were unmistakable when U.S. President Donald Trump spoke of securing the assistance of India for a reinvigorated effort to stabilize Afghanistan.

Part of this rapprochement has seen an obvious deterioration in U.S.-Pakistan relations, but the continued U.S. presence in Afghanistan and increasing friendship with India has geopolitical implications for China's all-weather friendship with Pakistan. Equally India and Japan's deepening engagement, and speculation about a recent shipment of India's BrahMos missiles to Vietnam won't have gone unnoticed in Beijing either.

Despite all this, Xi Jinping heaped compliments on Modi and India, and in a firmly positive speech that made no mention of Doklam, Xi praised the encouraging "development momentum of China-India relations," heralding cooperative ventures in industry, culture and international organizations. More surprising still, India secured a big concession with the language included in a BRICS statement which made direct mention of Pakistan-based terror groups, previously thought to have been excluded at the insistence of Pakistan's ally, China.

BRICS reborn

Aside from the consternation this will cause in Islamabad -- who might reasonably conclude that the "all-weather friendship" is perhaps not exactly all-weather after all -- it also raises the intriguing spectacle of China elevating the status of the BRICS for reasons as yet unclear.

The organization derives from an emerging markets investment strategy pioneered by Goldman Sachs but has never truly developed beyond a bit of institutional cooperation here and there. Now Russia is heavily sanctioned and struggling while Brazil's economy has collapsed, leaving the China and India only two serious powers left. China and India, however, increasingly see each other as regional rivals and only weeks ago nearly went to war.

Whether India is willing to cooperate meaningfully with China remains to be seen, but they will accept the flattery. Nevertheless, this incident suggests that China, or at least Xi Jinping, recognizes that hostility with India hinders, rather than helps China's strategic interests. The Belt and Road Initiative, for example, looks rather different if the principle power in the Indian ocean objects to it.

More long term, if India follows China's spectacular growth run over the last few decades -- and given its current trajectory and demographics, this seems more likely than not -- then China's vast overcapacity has only one possible outlet. China, in other words, can't afford to make an enemy of India.

Shutting the gate?

A bit of institutional flattery may only serve to delay the inevitable, but China's unexpected overtures to India are easy to comprehend if you observe the growing alignment between India, the U.S., Japan and Vietnam. China sees this, and is concerned enough to try and prevent it. Therefore, smoothing over Doklam tensions and trying to beef up the BRICS as a platform for Indo-Chinese cooperation may be wise policy, if it gives India reasons not to cozy up to Vietnam, Japan and the U.S.

Alternatively, after years of obstruction over India's effort to join the Nuclear Suppliers Group, China's explicit support for Pakistan, and now the surprisingly bitter exchanges over Doklam, it may be far too late.

Key takeaways. Nothing new but still needs to be highlighted separately.

1. Now Russia is heavily sanctioned and struggling while Brazil's economy has collapsed, leaving the China and India only two serious powers left [Context is BRICS]
2. Then China's vast overcapacity has only one possible outlet. China, in other words, can't afford to make an enemy of India.
3. China's unexpected overtures to India are easy to comprehend if you observe the growing alignment between India, the U.S., Japan and Vietnam.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vijaykarthik » 07 Sep 2017 23:43

anupmisra wrote:One common feature - the South African is always on the outside, holding hands with Eleven Gin Pegs.

Interesting observation. I'll add one more. They didn't hold hands in Russia - I guess that's because homosexuality is banned in Russia?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Sep 2017 00:57

By holding hands they are preventing each HoS from pinching the musharraf or picking the pocket of the other. Wise.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 08 Sep 2017 01:39

pankajs, Thanks for posting Forbes article. Forbes of late has been hyperactive about India pretending to tell India what to do and what not to do.

I think Forum Secular stalwarts will get upset but NaMo sent Doval to China to reveal to Xi China's janam kundali and potential for Rahu to afflict it.*
Xi wisely understood and hence the outcome.

Forbes and the US chatteratti are flummoxed as they were sure war over Dokhlam was sure to happen and India suffer 1962 redux. And their minions in Indian media(same as the ones paid by China. They are double paid) started preparing the Indian public for this festivity.
Didn't happen.

I think SD will get a purge for not understanding what happened.#

*Modern terms China's rise will be dimmed beyond repair.

# The script was India's rise will be managed by US. The purge is for letting India rise without managing.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby BSR Murthy » 08 Sep 2017 05:38

Are we specializing in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?! India (GOI, armed forces) did a splendid job. Victory is there for all to see. Let us not nitpick. India just showed the world beyond any doubt that it would defend its interests and the interests of its friends by putting the blood and treasure on the line and standing steadfast. The mature, low decibel and honorable way India conducted itself is a matter of great pride to any patriotic Indian. We won. Period. Our prestige went up mightily everywhere (including I suspect in both our eastern and western neighbors). Jai Hind.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Sep 2017 05:49

pankajs wrote:- In the years ahead, the Indian Army will continue to invest significantly in HAL Dhruvs, Rudras, LCHs and the IMRH as well.
- At the moment, the Chinese can at any point in time, helo-lift 2-3 battalions from locations on the Tibetan plateau.
- But given our budget, what we can hope to achieve is brigade sized air mobility by the mid-2020s.


Wasn't there a plan to buy 15 Chinooks from usa? Would that help move things faster?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Sep 2017 06:15

kiranA wrote:[Bhutan has voice in uno but absolutely did not raise it . Ny times said Bhutan actually did not even want India to interfere . Bhutanese media is silent.


So Modi govt lies, our army lies but but....

New York times tells truth, Chinese tell truth.

You slimey commie dalla @#&$√π¶

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 08 Sep 2017 06:26

^^^^ There may be some truth in Bhutan not being the first party to raise the issue, but as an Indian I don't care. Bhutanese territory is our core interest; vigorous defence is our priority whether that territory is violated in a way in which it becomes a strategic threat to us or otherwise. So all these folks saying "Bhutan didn't complain" can go take a hike. We don't need a fig leaf of Bhutan asking for help and get stuck in technicalities with the likes of NYT and GT.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kashi » 08 Sep 2017 06:29

yensoy wrote:^^^^ There may be some truth in Bhutan not being the first party to raise the issue


But this is is not true. Bhutan did care enough to invite IA into their territory to stop Chinese troops from building the road, after their soldiers were pushed back.

There have been lots of statements from Bhutan during the course of the stand off.

BSR Murthy wrote:Are we specializing in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?! India (GOI, armed forces) did a splendid job. Victory is there for all to see.


And thereby hangs the tale. There were many rooting and hoping for India to fail here and egging the Chinese to "teach India a lesson". They could not wait to beat the #BlowtoModi trumpet and the the daggers were ready.

The outcome came as a shock. How dare GoI and Modi come out of this looking stronger and better and how could Chinese be seen to be climbing down?

So what comes next? Spin the events as a defeat and a #BlowtoModi- blame everyone from PM Modi to Gen. Rawat to NSA Ajit Doval and this is exactly what the likes of Simon Be-Sharma and AbhadraKumar have been doing- their frustrations are flowing into their venomous outpourings. Interestingly, they all have latched onto a common narrative- one echoed by K&K here- Bhutan said nothing, India lost because forced to withdraw, China is the greatest...

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2017 07:07

kiranA wrote:Building a road in remote china Bhutan border is not very high on china agenda
Your assumptions sir. Your assumptions
kiranA wrote:When will this country government stop treating its citizens like children ?

Rhetoric. Off topic for this thread. Try nukkad

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Arjun » 08 Sep 2017 07:36

kiranA wrote:Just take a step back and think. Building a road in remote china Bhutan border is not very high on china agenda . Core china is atleast 2000 miles away. But strongly securing the border is obviously high on india agenda. In this light shouldn't india have a better vision than ..." hey we temporarily stopped their bored construction crew at 100 meters from the border. We will keep silent when they assert their right to build at it in future ".

Also till now I haven't seen Indian response to Chinese claims . They released a 21 page document articulating their stance on a territory 2000 miles away from their core areas . What is goi official stance? Why won't they tell people what it is ?wherr is the earnestness

When will this country government stop treating its citizens like children ?

Agree with the second part...this government's communication ability has always been pretty poor - not just on this incident but on several others. Perhaps it feels that actions speak louder than words - but irrespective does not seem to be in synch with the aggressive communication policy of either the US or China.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suraj » 08 Sep 2017 10:40

More on Eleven's Platform Shoes - here's how the leaders stand in height:
Modi: 5'7
Eleven: 5'9
Putin: 5'7

Here's how Modi and Putin look standing together:
Image
And here's how Eleven looks in 11" heels:
Image
Is that TWO inches difference ??

Amazing the lengths to which Eleven goes to appear like a big boy. Despite standing in platform shoes, he looks awkward and uncomfortable as Modi maintains the dominant handshake position.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2017 10:45

Suraj wrote:
Amazing the lengths to which Eleven goes to appear like a big boy. Despite standing in platform shoes, he looks awkward and uncomfortable as Modi maintains the dominant handshake position.

Suraj I may be 400% wrong here because I have been unable to find any proof but I wonder if Xi actualy suffers from a mild case of "scoliosis" (bent spine - to the right in Xi's case) which is hidden perhaps by shoes that are of unequal height and well made suits that pad one shoulder more than the other. His slight paunch appears like that of a person with scoliosis - but can't be sure.

In quite a few images I saw that Xi's left arm hanging down hugs his body but the right arm hangs ever so slightly away - indicating tilt to right.

Mind you I may be completely wrong but the platforms may be to disguise that.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 08 Sep 2017 11:06

Don’t waste a good crisis: New India had a sophisticated game at Doklam. But watch out for the new China


Don’t waste a good crisis: New India had a sophisticated game at Doklam. But watch out for the new China

September 8, 2017, Indrani Bagchi in Globespotting

The atmosphere in the room was slightly tense. Not angry or sullen, just uncomfortable, as Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi Jinping faced each other in Xiamen, the caterwauling of Doklam still echoing in their ears.

Both leaders of big powers with thousands of years of statecraft behind them, they crested that particular wave together and engaged in “forward-looking” discussions. We might have another border agreement/ understanding, which will be good only until the next crisis pops up, which it will, because China’s expansion hunger is not easily satiated.

For ten weeks, India and China provided a rare spectacle for the world. By the end, the number of ringside spectators had grown exponentially. The resolution, when it came, brought with it life hacks for every country with a China-sized challenge.

Image

Illustration: Uday Deb

It’s possible to deter China, by almost Gandhian means albeit 21st century style. It’s possible for a non-Chinese narrative to prevail, especially if it is borne out by history, international law and an ability to see through the Chinese game. There is a new template out there for different countries to use as they deem fit, if they seek to tame Chinese expansionism. As Shyam Saran says, a China-centric world is not inevitable, it can be successfully contested.

And some clearly are contesting it. While our attention was trained on a windswept plateau, Botswana’s President Ian Khama thumbed his nose at Beijing over Dalai Lama and declared “we are not a colony of China” – Beijing had threatened to recall its ambassador if Dalai Lama set foot in Botswana. German foreign minister Sigmar Gabriel shocked Europe when he accused China of trying to “divide” EU by paying off individual countries where they are major investors, for example Greece and Hungary.

He may also have been referring to Spain – which bent over backwards and amended its laws to throw out human rights cases by Tibetan litigants. And last week, Beijing threw a diplomatic fit when Indonesia renamed its sea the North Natuna Sea – areas China claims under its “nine-dash line”. That issue comes even as Singapore, in an unprecedented move, threw out Chinese academic Huang Jing for alleged lobbying for China.

The Brics declaration naming Pakistan and its terror groups was a bonus – though one suspects that had less to do with India and more to do with China’s own irritation with Pakistan on terrorism – remember, in Astana, Xi refused to meet Nawaz Sharif after two Chinese were murdered in Pakistan.

China has grand plans for Pakistan, from agriculture, tourism, pipelines, power, etc. Pakistan’s proxy terrorists, including the ETIM, running tame are not part of that plan.

Moreover, as a result of the new Afghan policy, if Trump’s US populates Pakistani skies with attack drones and surveillance aircraft, it would put China’s nose seriously out of joint. In all the years America has begged, threatened, paid Pakistan to kick the terror habit, American economic interests were not involved. China is getting into the weeds, literally, which will affect how Pakistan lives and thinks, and prays.

On the other hand, a Kim Jong Un running riot is fine for Xi. As long as the Americans don’t attack, China remains an important player, and everybody else is off kilter. Xi is essentially playing the same card Pakistan did for 15 years – running the Taliban in Afghanistan while positioning itself as the only broker of peace. This strategy has a definite sell-by date. China is playing master puppeteer on many fronts, but it’s unclear how many Xi will win.

Notwithstanding all this, Doklam could have turned out very differently, and we could have been licking our wounds. Chinese commentators rightly said “China is five times India’s size”, and unlike India they have not been wasting their time. Even if they did not physically attack in the eastern or western sector, China has enough tools to incapacitate India – a high quality cyber attack, perhaps on the Aadhaar ecosystem; an anti-satellite attack to immobilise Indian communications … the list can go on.

Every crisis is an opportunity. India should not let a good crisis go waste. Doklam has notched up a big achievement – the average Indian is now convinced China is an enemy. This is actually China’s biggest loss vis-à-vis India. It would have taken years to get Indian companies, states, entities to sharpen awareness of the dangers China poses. Doklam has done that in two months.
Anecdotal evidence shows growing numbers of companies reviewing their China-buy decisions, state governments becoming more vigilant, etc. It’s interesting the government accepted the Shekatkar committee report on military modernisation soon after Doklam, recognising the dangers of its present attitude.

What will be more important would be to opt for joint development of defence equipment with Japan, as suggested by the just completed defence dialogue – it’s time to look beyond the US-2, and turn the strategic convergence into reality. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe will be here next week, all eyes should be on that visit.

Bhutan should get a lot more Indian attention because, in some ways, we owe Bhutan. Bhutan has made its own strategic choice, we should be worthy of it. So stop the meaningless bickering over rupees and hydro projects. Time to invest big in Bhutan.

Watch Wolf Warrior 2, China’s Rambo flick breaking box office records. Wu Jing, the Chinese Rambo, personifies the new China – willing and able to inflict costs on those that thwart it. India played a sophisticated game in Doklam. It needs to keep playing it.

DISCLAIMER : Views expressed above are the author's own.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 08 Sep 2017 11:07

Philip wrote: ...........{Snipped}............

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... d-pakistan

India army chief: we must prepare for simultaneous war with China and Pakistan
General says Himalayan standoff could become larger conflict with China, which Pakistan would then use to its advantage


Associated Press
Thursday 7 September 2017

India’s army chief said on Wednesday the country should be prepared for a potential two-front war given China is flexing its muscles and there is little hope for reconciliation with Pakistan.

General Bipin Rawat referred to a recent 10-week standoff with the Chinese army in the Himalayas that ended last week. He said the situation could gradually snowball into a larger conflict on India’s northern border. Rawat said Pakistan on the western front could take advantage of such a situation.

The Press Trust of India news agency quoted Rawat’s remarks at a seminar organised by the Center for Land Warfare Studies, a thinktank in New Delhi.

India fought a war with China in 1962 and three wars with Pakistan, two of them over control of Kashmir, since securing independence from Britain in 1947. All three countries are nuclear powers.

Rawat said credible deterrence did not take away the threat of war. “Nuclear weapons are weapons of deterrence. Yes, they are. But to say that they can deter war or they will not allow nations to go to war, in our context that may also not be true,” the news agency quoted him as saying.

India last week agreed to pull troops from the disputed Doklam plateau high in the Himalayas (? Get your facts right Guardian!), where Chinese troops had started building a road. The 10-week standoff was the two nations’ most protracted in decades, and added to their longstanding strategic rivalry.

“We have to be prepared. In our context, therefore, warfare lies within the realm of reality,” Rawat said.

His comments came a day after India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, and China’s president, Xi Jinping, agreed on a “forward-looking” approach to Sino-India ties, putting behind the Doklam standoff.

Xi and Modi met on the sidelines of a summit of the Brics emerging economies in the south-eastern Chinese port city of Xiamen. The Brics nations are Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

PRC Foreign Ministry reaction to our COAS Gen. Bipin Rawats warning of the possibility of two front war with all-weather partners and iron brothers Peoples Republic of China and the Mohammadden Terrorism fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Geng Shuang's Regular Press Conference on September 7, 2017 ….

Q: The Indian army chief said that India must be prepared for war. He also accused China of testing the limit of India. Do you have any reaction for that?

A: Did any Indian journalist ask you to come up with this question? (The journalist laughed)

We have noted the remarks of the relevant person with the Indian military, which are deemed as shocking words by some Indian media. I don't know whether he was authorized to make such comments and whether they were made impromptus personally or on behalf of the Indian government.

China and India are each other's important neighbour and we are the two largest developing countries and emerging markets. A sound and stable China-India relationship serves the fundamental interests of the two peoples and is the shared aspiration of this region and the international community at large.

Two days ago, during his meeting with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, President Xi Jinping pointed out that, China and India should stay committed to the basic judgment that two sides present development opportunities rather than threat to each other. We hope the Indian side can look at China's development in a correct and rational manner. We shall show the world that peaceful coexistence and win-win cooperation are the only right choice for China and India. The two sides should respect each other, seek common ground while shelving differences and uphold peace and tranquility in our border areas. Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that India stands ready to work with China and ensure the steady development of the relations between the two countries. The two sides should not take each other as rival but make cooperation the mainstream of their relations. China and India need to jointly uphold peace and tranquility in the border areas.

We hope the relevant person with the India military can see clear the historical trend and come out with more words and deeds conducive to the development of China-India relations.


From here:

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Geng Shuang's Regular Press Conference on September 7, 2017

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 08 Sep 2017 11:08

Peoples Republic of China State controlled newspaper Global Times dishes out a mighty peeved Editorial regards Gen. Bipin Rawat’s warning that India could face the very real prospect of the PRC and it’s all weather iron brother the Mohammadden Terrorism fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan ganging up to wage war on India:

Rawat’s arrogance taints India’s image

Source: Global Times Published: 2017/9/7 19:33:39

Indian Army Chief General Bipin Rawat said on Wednesday that the country needs to be prepared for a two-front war. He accused China of taking over India's territory like "salami slicing" and warned that Pakistan "was likely to take advantage of the situation developing along the northern border."

Rawat's remarks came just a little over a week after China and India ended their border standoff in the Doklam area. The Chinese and Indian leaders just met during the BRICS Xiamen Summit and sent positive signals about bilateral ties. While many people believe it is time to leave the episode of the border standoff behind, Rawat has sent the completely opposite message.

In June when the standoff just started, Rawat claimed that the "Indian Army is fully ready for a two-and-a-half-front war," referring to wars with China and Pakistan and a domestic anti-terror war.

Admittedly, Rawat has such a big mouth that he could ignite the hostile atmosphere between Beijing and New Delhi. He not only turns a blind eye to international rules, but also made us see the arrogance probably prevailing in the Indian Army. He advocated a two-front war in such a high-profile manner, but where does the Indian Army's confidence come from?

Generals in India need to form some basic knowledge about the current situation. Can India bear the consequences when it has both China and Pakistan as its adversaries at the same time? Should the Indian Army simulate a military rivalry with its Chinese counterpart before letting Rawat speak?

The Chinese people have felt that the security situation of their country is becoming severe. But before the Doklam confrontation, few people would think of a Sino-Indian war. Although the two have border disputes, China's military supporters rarely viewed India as a potential military rival of China.

Most Chinese people do not expect the border disputes between the two countries to be solved soon. Before a negotiation result comes out, they support maintaining the status quo. China does not make provocations first, and it does not allow India to.

The Indian opinion sphere has always agonized over the border issue. It seems that there are two Indias, one that is thriving and as one of the BRICS countries the same as China; and the other that keeps provoking and tangling with China. Should we embrace the first India or teach the second India a lesson?

Let the first India discipline the second one and the Indians with dignity should take care of the mouths of senior officials like Rawat. Their words and the arrogance they show will taint India's image. If India is able to reflect upon itself, it should not let these people distort the public's understanding of the world.


From here:

Rawat’s arrogance taints India’s image

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2017 11:29

Some in media are suggesting that Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn and pushing the narrative and GOI. That does not seem to be right. He might have gone on his own the first time but then he would have been warned. The repeat pattern suggests that GOI is communicating its message through him. What Modi/MEA will not say is being said by Gen. Rawat.

And it seems the message is reaching the correct quarters in China with their foreign ministry responding.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suraj » 08 Sep 2017 11:42

shiv wrote:
Suraj wrote:
Amazing the lengths to which Eleven goes to appear like a big boy. Despite standing in platform shoes, he looks awkward and uncomfortable as Modi maintains the dominant handshake position.

Suraj I may be 400% wrong here because I have been unable to find any proof but I wonder if Xi actualy suffers from a mild case of "scoliosis" (bent spine - to the right in Xi's case) which is hidden perhaps by shoes that are of unequal height and well made suits that pad one shoulder more than the other. His slight paunch appears like that of a person with scoliosis - but can't be sure.

In quite a few images I saw that Xi's left arm hanging down hugs his body but the right arm hangs ever so slightly away - indicating tilt to right.

Mind you I may be completely wrong but the platforms may be to disguise that.

Sorry to reberse-piskologize you, shiv saar. But who cares about sco-whatever-sis . This is a moment to show up Eleven as a poseur trying too hard to outdo other world leaders in a public setting. If his condition makes his position more precarious within the politburo standing committee, all the better for us. Internal political instability in China fomented by Indian action suits us just fine. It shows we have the power to destabilize the muddled kingdom right at its center.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2017 11:51

Manish_Sharma wrote:
pankajs wrote:- In the years ahead, the Indian Army will continue to invest significantly in HAL Dhruvs, Rudras, LCHs and the IMRH as well.
- At the moment, the Chinese can at any point in time, helo-lift 2-3 battalions from locations on the Tibetan plateau.
- But given our budget, what we can hope to achieve is brigade sized air mobility by the mid-2020s.


Wasn't there a plan to buy 15 Chinooks from usa? Would that help move things faster?

I don't know about air-brigade as indicated in my post. We need normal border infra which can be used to push men and material on to the Tibet plateau and fast. I also want redundancies as far as border infra is concerned.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 08 Sep 2017 11:52

pankajs wrote:Some in media are suggesting that Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn and pushing the narrative and GOI.


I have come across no such narrative in our media suggesting that they believe Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn.

Could you please share link/s to article/s in our media suggesting that our media believes Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn.
Last edited by arun on 08 Sep 2017 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 08 Sep 2017 11:52

pankajs wrote:Some in media are suggesting that Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn and pushing the narrative and GOI. That does not seem to be right. He might have gone on his own the first time but then he would have been warned. The repeat pattern suggests that GOI is communicating its message through him. What Modi/MEA will not say is being said by Gen. Rawat.

And it seems the message is reaching the correct quarters in China with their foreign ministry responding.


No IA chief will open his mouth unless cleared in advance.

That's the rigid protocol.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2017 11:56

https://scroll.in/article/849926/the-da ... t-the-tone
The Daily Fix: On both China and Pakistan, India cannot let army set the tone

Rawat’s remarks stirred a normally taciturn Chinese government into making a statement. China’s foreign minister said ties had been “damaged” but not “derailed” by Doklam, while his ministry noted that sections of the Indian press had found Rawat’s remarks shocking. This has become a pattern in recent months: India’s military leadership drowning out the civilian leadership with belligerence, taking control of the narrative when political sensitivity and moderation were needed the most.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 08 Sep 2017 11:59

^^^ Thank You.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2017 12:11

Ha!ha! When a uniformed Chin commie clone vents forth against India,did he first get the nod from XI Gin Pig or Zhongnanhai?

However,coming back to the issue,we deftly avoided a calamitous clash,which would've tested us a lot on the ground as this report indicates,the abysmal condition of our border infrastructure. There was one article which said that in earlier times,the BRO was the one outfit which never said it couldn't be done. The perilous condition of our roads,etc. was experienced in full when we rushed (at exruciatingly slow road speed) troops to buttress the border with the Chinese.

This unpreparedness,both mentally and physically is due largely in part to the "appease China" establishment that haunts Lutyens' Delhi. Govts. may cone,govts. may go,but the "Appeasement Club of China" imagines that it will last forever.
This govt. is not new,it's 3 yrs. old.It too must share some of the blame for not being farsighted enough.For too long we've been blindsided with Pak and have exhausted our energy in making ludicrous brownie points on telly with them every time a terror attack happens.The phrase "befitting reply" has been used by both UPA and NDA ad nauseum and little follow up on the "surgical strikes",since terror continues unabated in J&K.
The Chinese in the meantime built up a fab infrastructure in Tibet.Around 4 yrs. ago I mentioned on BRF the shock I felt after seeing the pics of roads,etc. in Tibet sent by a friend who
went there.We don't even have such quality in our metros!

The Chinese "lesson" they now want to teach India is that the US is useless as an ally. It is a fading power.The US's track record of supporting allies over the last 50 yrs. rather dismal.Ask the Shah,Noriega,Saddam,Ghadaffi,the UKR,etc.During Doklam the US kept silent while the Japanese supported India. When the balloon goes up next time,.we'll be all alone.Therefore the GOI has no excuse now (and NS a massive job to do) in beefing up the armed forces asap,ramping up our border infrastructure at breakneck speed and preparing for a long war against both China and Pak in all dimensions including massive cyber-warfare.

Away from the standoff, Indian Army battled the elements to secure LAC
By Vikram Sharma | Express News Service | Published: 08th September 2017 01:00 AM |

The path up to Barahoti, Niti Pass and other areas close to the LAC is treacherous. (EPS photo)
NITI, UTTARAKHAND: While the nation’s eyes were ri­veted on the war of eyeballs at Doklam, the Indian Army was battling another set of adversities on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Uttarakhand just so as to be prepared should any hostilities break out. A visit to the frontier by The New Indian Express, even as the ‘expeditious disengagement’ at Doklam was being announced, brought ho­me the odds India’s military fa­ces in securing India’s borders in this arc of the LAC.

The path up to Barahoti, Niti Pass and other areas close to the LAC is treacherous. It’s a narrow snaky path with the sheer drop of the mountain on one side and a steep valley on the other. Landslides and shooting stones are a possibility at any time. A misjudgment by an inch or two can result in a plunge down the valley with absolutely no hope of survival. Get caught in a landslide and there is no guarantee how long one could be stuck here without help.

Roads being laid in
the area | EPS
There’s no mobile phone connectivity throughout the 100 km stretch and not a single fuel station. Plus, at heights above 16,0­0­0 ft, oxygen is rare and hi­gh-al­t­i­tute pulmonary oedema can be a killer. In case the situation de­ma­n­d­s travel at night, this is nothing but a deadly game of Russian ro­ulette.

Ever since the Doklam standoff began between India and Ch­­ina, hundreds of trucks tra­n­­s­­ported artillery equipment and thousands of men up this tr­eacherous stretch from Josihmath to the LAC. The heavy mo­v­ement of artillery and tr­o­o­p­s was carried out amid fears that a ‘limited action’ could take pla­c­e on this front instead of at Doklam. Repeated incursions by Chinese troops here indicated that possibility.

In sharp contrast to the metal-topped roads, rail links, air st­rips, radar systems, fuel dep­ots and other state-of-the-art infrastructure on the Chinese si­d­e, the Indian Army convoys wh­­­­­­ich were moved to Joshima­th from different places were vastly hampered by the poor infrastructure on the Indian side.

Some of the units arrived here from Dehradun, about 300 km away, after navigating landslide-prone zig-zagging roads. But their hardest task was the last 100 km stretch from Joshimath to Barahoti and Niti Pass.

To travel from Joshimath to Niti Pass, civilians need an Inner Line Permit from the office of the sub-divisional magistrate in Joshimath. At Tapovan, some 15 km beyond Josihmath, mobile phones go dead. Further along starts a dangerously slushy path which can bring vehicles to the brink if not driven carefully.

At Niti Pass, one driver of an army truck said the 100 km to Niti Pass took army convoys 11 hours to complete. Since they were moving heavy artillery and men, they were vulnerable to landslides, which are always likely in the rainy season. If darkness falls midway through the movement, the trucks just stop for the night.

The treacherous terrain near Barahoti,
Niti Pass and other areas near the LAC
in Uttarakhand. | EPS
“It’s like living on the edge all the time,” said the driver. “Once it turns dark, there is no way anyone can move an inch. It gets completely dark with zero visibility. You cannot expect street lights here.”
As it rained heavily on many days, the frequency of shooting stones and landslides increased, making it impossible for troops to move forward. “On August 15, some 32 vehicles crossed Malari village and many of them got stuck en route due to landslides. Earth movers had to be summoned by satellite phones,’’ said a local police official.

Many of the Army and ITBP truck drivers were new to the terrain. The troops that were already deployed here before the Doklam standoff had got used to the terrain and their drivers became expert at navigating this route. But since there was huge deployment from other places and the drivers were new, it became a major problem.

At many places expecting help from local villages is not possible because several of them, from Tapovan to Jumma, Malari, Kurkuti, Bampa, Gamshali and finally Niti, have been emptied out due to out-migration from the hills.
“If there were better blacktopped roads, mobile connectivity, hospitals, petrol bunks and other infrastructure, it would aid the mobility of the forces. More than the real enemy, these factors hinder us before we reach the battle front,’’ said an ITBP jawan.

Despite the war of 1962, no government since then has paid attention to improving infrastructure along the LAC. It was only on a few stretches of this path that new roads are being laid and workers said it would take a long time before the the last mile is covered. Work on this terrain is difficult, but then it’s the same on the Chinese side but it is better equipped.
There are several bridges, small and big, in this area but these were only repaired by the Border Roads Organisation (BRO) just before the movement of troops began. Many bridges that were in a bad shape were patched up for the immediate purpose of moving the artillery and men to the border, an official said.

A drive on these bridges can make one jittery for the cliff falls off steeply down to the Dhauli Ganga river. “You never know when this will fall,” said one driver said as we inched along.
Senior officials in Uttarakhand were loath to admitting that the infrastructure on this side of the LAC is inadequate when compared to what Beijing has done on its side. However, ever since the Doklam standoff, BRO has stepped up work on the roads.

:mrgreen: “There have been several proposals for highways, railway lines, air bases, logistics and other infrastructure. But for some reason, they remained on paper for decades. Now that we had the Doklam standoff, hopefully the government will focus on building infrastructrure here,” a senior official said.
India and China share a 3,488 km border that arcs over several Himalayan states. In Uttarakhand, a 345 km line passes by Barahoti, a grassland in Chamoli district.
It has seen frequent incursions by the Chinese. The dispute at Barahoti dates back to the British era when the area was popular among traders going to Tibet in the summer. However, in 1954, India stopped trade with Tibet after the Panchsheel agreement.

A day after Army chief General Bipin Rawat said that ‘warfare lies within the realm of reality,’ China on Thursday said that his remarks were contrary to the views expressed by PM Narendra Modi and President Xi Jinping during their meeting in Xiamen. Rawat had said India should be prepared for a two-front war, insisting that China had started “flexing its muscles

The probe point called Barahoti

The first known transgression by China in Barahoti took place in 1954. Thereafter there have been hundreds more. Last year, two PLA helicopters hovered over Barahoti, which is located in the middle of the 3488 km long LAC and the PLA keeps asserting itself here. In 1958, India and China agreed that Barahoti was a disputed territory

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 20--3.html
Last edited by Philip on 08 Sep 2017 12:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 08 Sep 2017 12:18

arun wrote:^^^ Thank You.


for quoting scroll.in??

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 08 Sep 2017 12:29

^^^

arun wrote:
pankajs wrote:Some in media are suggesting that Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn and pushing the narrative and GOI.


I have come across no such narrative in our media suggesting that they believe Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn.

Could you please share link/s to article/s in our media suggesting that our media believes Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn.


Thank You was for his responding to the request made by me to him.

As for source :wink:
Last edited by arun on 08 Sep 2017 12:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ashish raval » 08 Sep 2017 12:33

We really need to have a million strong military reserves with 3 years of training which stands ready to fight when called for.

They can be provided with 1 month training a year and kept fit. During this month they can be given up to 2 months pay and companies can be asked to allow break due to ongoing commitments with army. This can go on for 10 yeard after which new sets of personal come in.

This should really take care of Pakistan front and we should only worry about smashing string of pearls everywhere.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby prasannasimha » 08 Sep 2017 12:38

pankajs wrote:Some in media are suggesting that Gen. Rawat is speaking out of turn and pushing the narrative and GOI. That does not seem to be right. He might have gone on his own the first time but then he would have been warned. The repeat pattern suggests that GOI is communicating its message through him. What Modi/MEA will not say is being said by Gen. Rawat.

And it seems the message is reaching the correct quarters in China with their foreign ministry responding.

Rawat has spoken as per GOI . It's like Santhanam's fizzle speech- designed to create confusion and obfuscation for the other side. Which senior scientist would have opened his mouth having kept quite for aeons and strategically timed (if you go by the timeline of events ) other than for a strategic intent ?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vijaykarthik » 08 Sep 2017 14:00

Gen Rawat might be a hawk like a few media links portray. But Indian Generals rarely, if ever, speak out of turn. Even Gen Manekshaw / Sundarji etc were outspoken only inside closed doors and that rarely came out. Even in the case of Gen Singh when it came to his birthday / age proof, he went about the case pretty decently and didn't hit out at the govt directly. Our army (and defense) brass is well mannered and very Rohit when it comes to speaking in public.


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