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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Arjun » 12 Sep 2017 08:37

If the forum can take some time off from celebrating the phamous victory at Doklam - it might be useful to recognize some signs that the ground is rapidly shifting from under one's feet. Here is where the far more consequential war of the future will be fought...

https://swarajyamag.com/science/china-i ... ndhi-memes

India Today executive editor Damayanti Datta is absolutely right when she points out that if a Doklam-like situation arises again, China may be in an advantageous position, 'simply because it is leading the AI research race.'

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 10:02

Right, AI will help China win wars...all they need to do is operationalize skynet. :roll: Besides, the chinese are still at the border in Doklam -- now that their "face has been saved" from humiliation. Like all things, it is a matter of managing the chinese at our borders until something precipitous happens at some point in the future.

For starters, not building electrical grids and cellular networks on chinese technology and not pretending that "IISC has the source code for huawei code" protects India from Chinese cyberattacks would be good start, and looks like the Indian govt. is at least moving in that direction. AI hype is going to remain hype until it is used in some actual battle.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 10:14

If any guru can explain I would be grateful.

I believe that roads and that too world class all-weather roads Doklam and Tawang from Lhasa is actually disadvantage for Han (as Han are worried about IA one day would liberate Tibet) as they would not be able to hold on to that if (when) IA decided to do a Bangladesh to Tibet. What's the logic behind Han thinking?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pratyush » 12 Sep 2017 10:37

If the PRC was logical. They would not be picking a fight with every one in the neighborhood. But they are, that too with countries that can seriously impeed them. Why?

To me it looks like serious misunderstanding of global history and global power shifts from one pole to another.

In the last 50 odd years, they have succeeded in India turning into an enemy. Maintain south Korea's alliance with US. Alienate Vietnam, and now indonesia.

If the PRC had a Brain they would be trying to detach south Korea from the American alliance system. Which will compel the Japanese to develop their military and may be build nukes and delivery method.

Instead by using ham handed techniques they are insuring that south korea remains with US.

What idiots.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 10:43

What's the logic behind Han thinking?


All logic exists in a framework...so one would have to understand the chinese mindset (as revealed in that other thread) to inveigle their rationale. But as Pratyush observes, the chinese seem to throw their weight around just because they can and pretend this is all great chinese sunsoo strategy...all they are doing is gaining more enemies in their neighbourhood and beyond..effing idiots.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 12 Sep 2017 10:44

^^With their ham handed dealing of the NoKo situation, They ensured that the THAAD is now poking right at their @$$ a few kms away from their main cities, all this while even SoKo itself wasnt so keen on the system

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 10:52

Pratyush sir, I believe military threat perceptions are different from diplomacy or politics.

For example, India is genuinely not interested in doing a Bangladesh to Tibet. But that's political position. Diplomatically also India several times made clear that we are not interested in Tibet, including vajpayee's open admission that we would stick to "Tibet is China" policy.

But militarily, India is capable of liberating Tibet. That is a possibility. With Doklam, now it's a probability. Even if your intentions are genuine and you are friendly and Bhai-bhai, Han feel insecure in Tibet, hence they improved supply lines to Lhasa with railways. Till that, it's logical, but improving road infrastructure to Doklam and Tawang sounds illogical, that is the reason I asked that question.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 10:55

" Till that, it's logical, but improving road infrastructure to Doklam and Tawang sounds illogical"

These are the same guys who randomly draw lines on the map and pretend it is their territory, whether on land or in the sea. Expecting logic from the actions of the CCP/PLA oiseaules maybe asking for too much. They are predators who need to be put in their place.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 11:06

"draw lines on the map and pretend it is their territory", "intimidating enemies and using abusive language" etc are a well thought out strategy, why it's illogical? That's how the imperials behave.

If you are saying it's not morally correct, sure it's not, but there's logic behind that.
Last edited by TKiran on 12 Sep 2017 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 11:09

"draw lines on the map and pretend it is their territory", is a well thought out strategy, why it's illogical? That's how the imperials behave.


So you already see the logic in Chinese behavior, do you, and yet you pretend you do not understand chinese logic? What is this snake oil you seem to be selling?

I am not talking morality here -- realpolitik is amoral. But I question the claims being made by you that the chinese have some sort of strategy when they go around taking over other people's territory....maybe it will work with smaller states, but with richer and more powerful states, they will lose long term if they end up creating enemies far and wide.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 11:13

periaswamy wrote:
"draw lines on the map and pretend it is their territory", is a well thought out strategy, why it's illogical? That's how the imperials behave.


So you already see the logic in Chinese behavior, do you, and yet you pretend you do not understand chinese logic? What is this snake oil you seem to be selling?

What I am saying is that there's logic behind improving road infrastructure from Lhasa to Doka Lam and Tawang. What is that logic is something that I am not able to decipher.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 11:22

What I am saying is that there's logic behind improving road infrastructure from Lhasa to Doka Lam and Tawang. What is that logic is something that I am not able to decipher.


Isn't that obvious from the news items on this thread -- the chinese want to occupy Indian territory to provide them a military advantage at the Indo-Burmese border. They can build all the roads they want, but if India occupies the high points in the region, they can easily make the roads unusuable if the chinese want to push a conflict in that region. If they cannot defend the roads during war, what is the point of building them?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kashi » 12 Sep 2017 11:23

TKiran wrote:What I am saying is that there's logic behind improving road infrastructure from Lhasa to Doka Lam and Tawang. What is that logic is something that I am not able to decipher.


:eek: Do even read what you type?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 11:29

periaswamy wrote:
If they cannot defend the roads during war, what is the point of building them?

That's exactly what I want to know. Militarily it makes no sense, or may be I am missing something. I don't know.
Last edited by TKiran on 12 Sep 2017 11:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby periaswamy » 12 Sep 2017 11:32

That's exactly what I want to know.


It seems to play well into their tactic of creeping expansion, where they slowly take over the territory of other countries by extending these roads and then pretending that the territory was always theirs...sort of why Doklam became an issue in the first place, because India was not going to let them get away with this behavior this time around. Now the jokers have a camp within Tibetan territory and if they resume building roads, we will be back to the situation a month ago...it may well happen.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 11:38

periaswamy wrote:
That's exactly what I want to know.


It seems to play well into their tactic of creeping expansion, where they slowly take over the territory of other countries by extending these roads and then pretending that the territory was always theirs...sort of why Doklam became an issue in the first place, because India was not going to let them get away with this behavior this time around. Now the jokers have a camp within Tibetan territory and if they resume building roads, we will be back to the situation a month ago...it may well happen.

May be true, tactically brilliant but strategic blunder. Over confidence may be. Can't rule out lack of foresite due to hubris.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2017 12:12

Brilliant outflanking move by Japan!

Faced with US erratic policies over the NoKo situ,where the pendelum swings from "war to jaw"too frequently,endangering the entire region,Japan has cleverly and secretly hedged its bets and buried the hatchet with Russia after WW2.Apart from this historic agreement with Putin and Russia,Abe and Putin are working on a new rail link from Japan through Russian held islands like Sakhalin all the way through Russia to Europe.This would be a fantastic achievement and far faster and easier to accomplish than the Chinese version of the Orient Exp/Trans Siberian Rly. The TSR already exists all the way from Moscow to Vladivostok,one of the world's most famous railway routes/trains,Linking the TSR wiht the Japanese rail network would be averitable coup for Japan and Russia.The Chinese woul'dve been outfoxed and outflanked!

Japanese prime minister says Japan and Russia reached historical agreement
06.09.2017 | Source: Pravda.Ru
Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe described as "historic" recent talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Abe, when speaking on Russian television, stressed that effective negotiations could be conducted "only with the person whom you trust."

"Results can be achieved only if parties strictly follow their promises. Of course, each of us stands for the interests of our countries, and negotiations can be very difficult at times, but I treat President Putin with great respect as a partner in our dialogue," the Prime Minister of Japan said.

On September 7 Putin and Abe will meet in Vladivostok for the 19th time. The previous meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe resulted in the signing of a number of strategic documents on cooperation.

Japan disputes Russian islands of Shikotan, Iturup, Habomai and Kunashir, insisting that these islands should be delivered to Japan. The parties have not reached a final solution on the problem of disputed islands, but signed a number of agreements on "joint economic activities" on the islands in such areas as fishery, tourism, medicine and ecology.

In 1964, the USSR offered Japan both the peace treaty and the delivery of several Kuril Islands, but Japan declined the offer. Today, some believe that Vladimir Putin and Shinzo Abe have already reached a secret agreement on the ownership of the Kuril Islands. Indeed, the meeting in December 2016 in Shinzo Abe's hometown of Nagato marked a breakthrough in the Russian-Japanese relationship. Afterwards, all of a sudden, Japanese companies evinced great interest in investing in Russia.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 12 Sep 2017 14:27

TKiran wrote:I believe that roads and that too world class all-weather roads Doklam and Tawang from Lhasa is actually disadvantage for Han (as Han are worried about IA one day would liberate Tibet) as they would not be able to hold on to that if (when) IA decided to do a Bangladesh to Tibet. What's the logic behind Han thinking?


Cheese from the moon's surface is better than Cheddar cheese. What is the logic behind my thinking?
I can answer that. There is no logic because the statement is rubbish to start with.

You are first making up things in YOUR mind and then saying that the Chinese thought it up and what is their logic.

World class all weather road to Doklam and Tawang are your imagination - like ladder to the moon. What is the logic behind your imagination?

1. What is world class?
2. Is the Lhasa-Xigaze and Xigaze-Yatung road "all weather"? We will talk about Doklam after that
3. Which road to Tawang?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 17:06

Shiv sir, Xigaze is to the west of Lhasa, but S204 is coming very close to Doka Lam (about 30-40 km ) the actual pictures of the road is too good and military material. It's connected to Lhasa through S307 (running Southwest of Lhasa). The map I was referring to doesn't have elevation information, but colour coded. But some of the pictures show that the snow is cut around 40 to 50 ft. Yeah they are not all weather.

S202 is stopping around 40-50km from LAC (not Tawang, I was wrong). But the reason I asked the question is like this.

why in the first instance roads (very good and can be used by military, I called it world class, if you don't like that word, I will not use that word) though difficult in that terrain were constructed on the Tibet side, towards close to LAC?

It was a deliberate decision by IA (not able to search the reference right now, as I am using mobile, but I read that in fact IA is against improving infrastructure on our side in Arunachal Pradesh) to keep the LAC the way it is right now. What advantage PLA gets apart from creeping encroachment of that almost no man lands and vacating the place in winter, again coming back.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 12 Sep 2017 17:10

TKiran wrote:It was a deliberate decision by IA (not able to search the reference right now, as I am using mobile, but I read that in fact IA is against improving infrastructure on our side in Arunachal Pradesh) to keep the LAC the way it is right now. What advantage PLA gets apart from creeping encroachment of that almost no man lands and vacating the place in winter, again coming back.

Have you seen my video linked below. If you have please say so and I will continue with an answer. It makes it easier to explain if you have watched the video
https://youtu.be/6wUkKcSBtss

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 12 Sep 2017 17:47

ramana wrote:SSridhar, There are dark mutterings about the Hu Jin Tao followers are being purged from power. Watch the rumblings. Should clear by month ending.

ramana, my sense is that Xi, already elevated to the same pedestal as Mao either by himself or by a sycophant group, is purging without discrimination. His aim is simply consolidation of his power and rule beyond the normal two terms, That was why Sun Zhengcai was removed recently. This has removed the heir-apparent. Xi is clever because all his actions are under 'elimination of corruption' which appeals to people.

He is hungry for power both domestically and internationally. He is convinced that he is the Emperor. He wants to change the rules of the game both within and without.

We will see soon.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 12 Sep 2017 19:22

Can't share Brahmaputra data for now; ready for talks to reopen Nathu La pass: China - PTI
China on Tuesday said that it cannot share the hydrological data of the Brahmaputra river with India for the time being as the data collection station in Tibet is being upgraded.

China, however, said it is ready to "keep communication" with India to reopen the Nathu La pass in Sikkim for the Indian pilgrims visiting Kailash and Manasarovar in Tibet, which it had suspended in mid-June over the Doklam standoff.

"For long time we have conducted cooperation on the river data with the Indian side. But to upgrade and renovate the relevant station in the Chinese side, we do not have the conditions now to collect the relevant statistics of the river," Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told media here.

Asked when will China provide the data, which was reportedly suspended due to the Doklam standoff, he said, "We will later consider that."

Asked whether India has been informed about not sharing of the hydrological data, he said according to his information the Indian side is aware of it.


On August 18, the external affairs ministry spokesman Raveesh Kumar had said there is an existing expert-level mechanism, established in 2006, and there are two MoUs under which China is expected to share hydrological data on rivers Sutlej and Brahmaputra with India during the flood season of May 15 to June 15.

"For this year, we have not received hydrological data from the Chinese side," Kumar had said.

The sharing of data by upper riparian state, China, to lower riparian states, India and Bangladesh is essential every monsoon to allow anticipation of the flow of the water and take necessary measures to deal with flooding in India's northeastern states.

On the reopening of the Nathu La Pass for the Indian pilgrims visiting Kailash and Manasarovar in Tibet which was suspended over the Doklam standoff, Geng said China is ready to "keep communication" with the India.

"For a long China has made efforts against all odds to provide necessary convenience to the Indian pilgrims. According to the agreement reached between the two leaders and based on the fact that the western section of the India-China boundary has been recognised by the two sides, China opened the pass to the Indian pilgrims," he said, replying to a question when China will open the route to the Indian pilgrims as the Doklam standoff has been resolved.

The foreign ministry spokesman said the opening of the Nathu La pass was suspended as the Indian troops "illegally crossed the border leading to the tensions at the border".

"The Indian troops illegally crossed the border leading to the tensions at the border. So the opening of the pass was suspended," he said.

"So China stands ready to keep communication with the Indian side in regard to the opening of the pass and other issues relating to the pilgrims," he said.


The Sikkim route to Mansarovar was opened in 2015, enabling pilgrims to travel the 1500-km long route from Nathu La to Kailash by buses.

The Yatra was being organised by external affairs ministry since 1981 through Lipu Pass in Himalays connecting the Kumaon region of Uttarakhand in India with the old trading town of Taklakot in Tibet.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 12 Sep 2017 19:30

Brics declaration to lead to more action against Pak-based terror groups: Russia - Sachin Parashar, ToI
Russia has hailed the Xiamen Brics declaration+ and its naming of Pakistan-based terror groups as a victory for countries concerned about terrorism in the region.

Despite it being seen as defending Pakistan from pressure exerted on the latter by the US on the issue, Moscow's position on Islamabad has been quite nuanced as official sources here [New Delhi] confirmed Russia worked actively with Beijing to convince it to drop its opposition to name-checking Pakistan based Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohamed (JeM).


The naming of these terror groups was seen by Indian officials as a major diplomatic breakthrough in Xiaman+ as Beijing had stalled all such attempts by both Russia and India during last Brics summit in Goa.

"We see the declaration and the naming of terror groups as an important breakthrough for countries who share concerns on terrorism in the region and we expect it to lead to more concrete action against such terrorist organisations," said a top Russian diplomat here [New Delhi], Sergey Karmalito, to TOI.

After the naming of Jaish in the Brics declaration, which is an accused in both Pathankot and Uri terror attacks of 2016, the next logical step for India is to also get its chief Maulana Masod Azhar proscribed by the UN. China has continued to block all attempts to include Azhar in the UNSC sanctions list despite the fact that the organisation he continues to helm is blacklisted by the same Security Council.

Indian officials are now hoping that Moscow will be of help to India in convincing Beijing to give up its opposition to the ban on Azhar too. According to diplomatic sources, Moscow is of the view that on the limited issue of Azhar, China may in the near future come round to India's view that a ban on Azhar will indeed be a positive step in the fight against terrorism.

"Beijing knows it has limited bargaining power with Azhar. NSG (Nuclear Suppliers Group) and CPEC of course are different issues," said a source who did not wish to be quoted. {IMHO, only 'CPEC' could be considered as a 'different issue' by China}

India's foreign minister Sushma Swaraj had earlier this year publicly appealed to Russia to convince China to support India's NSG membership+ bid but Moscow is not hopeful of a breakthrough anytime soon. However, while there are concerns here about Moscow's attempts to engage Taliban in the Afghanistan peace process, Russia is also trying to involve India more in that process.

This is evident from the fact, as sources said, from a proposal by Moscow that President Vladimir Putin's special envoy for Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov visit India soon. The visit could take place as early as October this year.

Kabulov is not the most popular Russian figure in India with some of his comments on peace and stability in the region seen here as a sign of Russia's growing strategic embrace of Islamabad. After President Trump attacked Pakistan while announcing his new Afghanistan policy, Kabulov responded by saying that putting pressure on Pakistan would only further destabilise the region.

While Kabulov recently denied allegations by the US that Russia was supplying military aid to the Taliban, he also said that there was a stalemate in Kabul's conflict with Taliban and that in this situation it was necessary ``to make the most active efforts to search for ways to launch the intra-Afghan dialogue." With the Taliban now controlling almost 45 per cent of Afghan territory, Moscow believes it is impossible to keep them out of any dialogue for sustainable peace in the country.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Sep 2017 20:05

SSridhar wrote:Can't share Brahmaputra data for now; ready for talks to reopen Nathu La pass: China - PTI China on Tuesday said that it cannot share the hydrological data of the Brahmaputra river with India for the time being as the data collection station in Tibet is being upgraded.
[b]On the reopening of the Nathu La Pass for the Indian pilgrims visiting Kailash and Manasarovar in Tibet which was suspended over the Doklam standoff, Geng said China is ready to "keep communication" with the India.

"The Indian troops illegally crossed the border leading to the tensions at the border. So the opening of the pass was suspended," he said.

"So China stands ready to keep communication with the Indian side in regard to the opening of the pass and other issues relating to the pilgrims," he said.

I assume that Indian Baboon do not need instructions to know how to make the lizards regret these. Another $6B cut in imports... another tightening of the boycott..

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 12 Sep 2017 20:15

^^^^ This is the time we tell Bangladesh that without Brahmaputra data we cannot help them from being submerged. Let the Banglas sort it out with the Chinese.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 12 Sep 2017 20:59

shiv wrote:
TKiran wrote:It was a deliberate decision by IA (not able to search the reference right now, as I am using mobile, but I read that in fact IA is against improving infrastructure on our side in Arunachal Pradesh) to keep the LAC the way it is right now. What advantage PLA gets apart from creeping encroachment of that almost no man lands and vacating the place in winter, again coming back.

Have you seen my video linked below. If you have please say so and I will continue with an answer. It makes it easier to explain if you have watched the video

Wow sir, that was very diligent effort. (Sorry for late response).

So, S202 towards Tawang and S204 towards Doklam are good roads, but with limitations as with weather as well as actual narrow approach. Still the question is the same, "why roads towards LAC?". Doesn't it actually boost advantage for IA, when we decide to do Bangladesh to Tibet? Instead of a 16 day war, it may reduce to 7 day war.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Sep 2017 21:39

^^ Because the people who live there are Indians, and they pay taxes. That is not to keep them barefoot&pregnant as they say. The lack of infrastructure on the Indian side continues to be a huge arguing point in favor of the cheen etc as in "we care about you unlike the lowlander sdres who boss you from Dilli, come to Uncle Lizard!" I think the resentment every time they have to ship a relative to the hospital, must be huge. In Kashmir, the only way to get someone to hospital is an Army helicopter, so they "thank" the IA, and then once the cameras are turned away, they spit. As they very well should.

The attitude of the dilli baboon towards the citizens who live in the frontline villages, has to be seen to be believed. The term "lampposts" comes to mind...

Good infrastructure means quick movement of supplies & ppl. Each bridge can be pre-equipped with a soosai mine, to be activated from deep south in case of emergency, or as the cheen come across it.

Look at the Syrian war: the whole countryside was controlled by whoever controlled the roads.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 12 Sep 2017 22:25

yensoy wrote:^^^^ This is the time we tell Bangladesh that without Brahmaputra data we cannot help them from being submerged. Let the Banglas sort it out with the Chinese.


A Noob question - are the chinis obligated to sharing data under any bilateral agreements with either India or BeeDee? If they are, then take 'em to court.

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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 12 Sep 2017 23:02

China signals reviving river data exchange, reopening pilgrims for Mansarovar

Updated: Sep 12, 2017, 22:07 IST

BEIJING: Within a fortnight of the Doklam agreement with India, China indicated on Tuesday that it wants to negotiate with India on issues like resuming supply of Brahmaputra river flow data, and movement of pilgrims to Mansarovar which were suspended during the 10-week stand-off.

The Chinese foreign ministry also said it will talk to New Delhi on the pilgrim issue, adding that it needs time to consider reopening the Nathu La route for Indians visiting Mansarovar lake in Tibet. Beijing had applied brakes in these areas after the Doklam standoff near the Sikkim border.

While conceding that the Brahmaputra river data collection was stopped because systems were being upgraded, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said this did not mean Beijing was setting a timeline as to when the exchange of hydrological data will resume.

"For long time we have conducted cooperation on the river data with the Indian side. But to upgrade and renovate the relevant station in the Chinese side, we do not have the conditions now to collect the relevant statistics of the river," he said. Geng did not specify when the supply of river data would resume. "We will later consider that," he said.

He also said India was aware of the upgrading of data collection stations on the Chinese side of Brahmaputra.

The signal from Beijing is that it wants to renegotiate some aspects of bilateral relations without allowing New Delhi to assume that the end of border standoff would mean a return to the old situation. The two countries had agreed to end the standoff near the Sikkim border on August 30.

India considers hydrological data crucial for making advance preparations to face floods or droughts, which are common occurrences in Brahmaputra's basin areas in Assam and other parts of the Northeast.

Geng said, on pilgrimage to Mansarovar in Tibet, that China would "keep communication" channels open with India to discuss the issue.

The ministry spokesman also indicated that the pilgrim route was opened in the first place on the assumption that there was no problem on the India-China border and the situation changed after Indian troops "illegally" crossed the border.

"For long, China has made efforts against all odds to provide necessary convenience to the Indian pilgrims. According to the agreement reached between the two leaders (Narendra Modi and Xi Jinping) and based on the fact that the western section of the India-China boundary has been recognised by the two sides, China opened the pass to the Indian pilgrims," he said.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Sep 2017 23:24


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2017 06:17

TKiran wrote:
So, S202 towards Tawang and S204 towards Doklam are good roads, but with limitations as with weather as well as actual narrow approach. Still the question is the same, "why roads towards LAC?". Doesn't it actually boost advantage for IA, when we decide to do Bangladesh to Tibet? Instead of a 16 day war, it may reduce to 7 day war.

Tibet is a plateau. There are vast flat areas. Particularly flat are river valleys along the Tsangpo and Indus - which have very good highways running next to them. But even the highways S 202, 204 etc run along flat river beds . If you ignore the problem of high altitude, flat areas are great for long, straight highways.

Then we come to India - or at least let me come to border/LAC.

According to China - they should hold every single bit of flat high ground and India should be pushed off the edge of the mountains and off ALL high ground. This is not happening. India owns some high ground in various places including Nathu La (near Doklam), Uttarakhand and Ladakh.

But because the Indian side is all downhill (sometimes uphill and downhill) and not flat - it is physically not possible to build long straight roads. Road running from downhill areas to uphill areas are like roads to Ooty and Kodaikanal. ZigZag ghat sections.

This is, as you rightly pointed out partly an advantage. It will definitely hold up attacking Chinese forces. But there is also a disadvantage. If you look at the Himalayas - they run from east to west - that is side to side. The rivers coming down to India run at right angles to that - so the river valleys run north to south. All our zigzag roads that go uphill to the border/LAC are parallel to the river valleys. It is the cross connection across these river valleys which need to run east to west that is only now being developed - after being ignored for decades.

Supposing Indian army is near the border fighting a battle - their supplies can only come up north to south via zigzag road If supplies and forces could come from east to west it would be so much better. Those are the roads that are now being built. The roads still cannot be long straight highways - but connectivity will get better. Areas that required 5 days trekking will get motor access and areas that could be supplied only by helicopter will become accessible.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2017 07:41

anupmisra wrote: . . . are the chinis obligated to sharing data under any bilateral agreements with either India or BeeDee? If they are, then take 'em to court.

It doesn't matter because the Chinese either largely violate international agreements & conventions with impunity or they will completely disregard any court ruling as we saw with UNCLOS recently.

But to answer your question, no, there is no bilateral or multilateral agreement of the lower riparian states with China. China will never agree to any binding agreement as an upper riparian state (unlike foolish us) with anyone. It is an upper riparian with respect to all its rivers and only others are at its mercy. However, there is some recent history to that.

It was in 2006 that India & China agreed to an expert committee to share the hydrological data of both Brahmaputra & Satluj. During Li Keqiang's visit to India in 2013, the pact was renewed & updated to sharing hydrological data on Brahmaputra twice a day during the flood season (June 1 to October 15) and similar data if water levels exceed mutually agreed levels during the non-flood season. However, India pressed for a more comprehensive arrangement but the Chinese side was unwilling to consider the long-standing Indian request for a joint mechanism over river water sharing especially concerning the 39 projects identified by China over the Brahmaputra.

In October 2013, a Chinese scholar accused India of pressurizing China by garnering the sympathy of the international community on the Brahmaputra issue. Li Zhifei of the National Institute of International Strategy of the influential Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, which normally responds to the Brahmaputra issues, wrote in a commentary on in Global Times that India was looking to “put more pressure on China by exaggerating the facts and drawing attention from the international community, with the intention of preventing China from developing Tibetan water resources. China should firmly resist such remarks and actions, and actively seek to address disputes through following the principles of peaceful negotiation and cooperation.”.

In June 2014, during Vice President Hamid Ansari’s visit to China to mark the 60th anniversary of Panchsheel, Beijing formally agreed to allow India to “dispatch hydrological experts” to conduct study tours “according to the principle of reciprocity.” China also agreed to extend provision of hydrological data, from May 15 to October 15 every year on a daily basis, adding 15 days to an earlier agreement. The data will be provided by three stations at Nugesha, Yangcun and Nuxia in Tibet on the main stream of the river.

I have no information on the arrangement over the Satluj.

In a commentary in late December, 2016, Global Times suggested that the Lancang-Mekong cooperation (LMC) mechanism be used to resolve disputes along trans-boundary rivers covering China, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia should be used as a model for settling Brahmaputra issue.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2017 07:57

UlanBatori wrote:I assume that Indian Baboon do not need instructions to know how to make the lizards regret these. Another $6B cut in imports... another tightening of the boycott..

Of course, as GoI's thinking on future High Speed Train projects seems to show. Already Abe is coming to inaugurate the first such project.

But, an interesting thing is Global Times said, at the height of the Doka La crisis when our MEA spokesperson referred to the stoppage in hydrological data from China, that "China cannot be expected to fulfil its obligation when India has no regards for its neighbour`s sovereignty". Now, the Chinese spokesperson says that the data collection units in Tibet are being upgraded and that was the reason for the stoppage. Please make up your mind and give one reason/excuse.

You upgrade flood measurement instruments during high flood season? And without backup? And all the three units at the same time? And not as a planned activity so that India should have been forewarned?

The Chinese are known to shoot both their feet and tie themselves up in knots with their ridiculous answers. This has happened many, many times.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Sep 2017 08:00

Congenital/pathological liars, they know that the listener knows that they are liars, and they don't care. I frankly cannot understand those who go and start bijnej deals with PRC. HOW can they trust them for anything?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Arjun » 13 Sep 2017 08:20

A_Gupta wrote:China facing religious extremism:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKCN1BN09Y

More on this from our favourite Global Times:

China has released revised regulations on religious affairs, banning religious-involved separatist activities and any practice that stirs religious conflict among citizens.

The State Council released the new Ordinance of Religious Affairs on Thursday, which will take effect on February 1, 2018.

The new ordinance stresses "self-management" of all types of religious groups to avoid being controlled by foreign powers, and makes it clear that religious groups on different government levels are allowed to send practitioners for overseas study.

Compared to the previous version, the latest regulations are more specific and stricter, which analysts say are aimed at solving the latest problems of China's religious affairs.

"The revision of the previous regulations is an important measure to fulfill and implement the spirit of Chinese President Xi Jinping's speech on religious affairs," the Xinhua News Agency reported on Thursday.

The revisions protect freedom of religious belief and stipulate provision on public services for religious groups, schools and venues. Religious communities can hold charity events in accordance with the law, and religious workers are entitled to social security rights, according to the revisions.

The new regulations highlight religious and social harmony and seek mutual respect between believers and nonbelievers, as well as between believers of different religions. Neither organizations nor individuals may incite conflict between different religions, within a religion or between believers and nonbelievers, the regulations said.

This is aimed at solving some of the problems which have cropped up in recent years, Liu Guopeng, an expert at the Institute of World Religion Studies of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), told the Global Times on Monday. "China does have some problems like conflicts between different religions and the problem is getting serious."

"For instance, according to our research, Protestantism has been growing very quickly in recent years in the Chinese mainland, and the believers are more conservative than other Christians and they have frequently attacked some religions like Buddhism and Taoism, and also had conflicts with Islam," Liu said.

There have also been incidents between Muslims and other people in some parts of China. An alleged brawl involving Muslim minorities at a local highway toll station in Tangshan, North China's Hebei Province, in early September was the latest prominent conflict, which triggered a massive outcry on Chinese social media.


Re the bolded part - China seems to have adopted the Rajiv Malhotra charter earlier than India has ! India can learn a thing or two from China in religious regulation and more so in scale of ambition for development and STEM.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Sep 2017 08:22

Just allows the commies to go arrest anyone they please. Nothing bold about it.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Arjun » 13 Sep 2017 08:34

Umm, Ok...irrespective, this is exactly the type of regulation many on this forum and folks like Rajiv Malhotra would wish to see in India.

China's musharraff needs to be kicked hard for Pakistan, CPEC, NSG, UN and host of other matters (and celebration for something as bereft on ambition as Doklam seems idiotic to me) but doesn't mean we can't learn from the enemy in areas where they are better.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2017 08:48

Countering China’s presence in S Asia - Constantino Xavier, Business Line
China’s inroads into South Asia since the mid-2000s have eroded India’s traditional primacy in the region, from Afghanistan to Myanmar and also in the Indian Ocean. As Beijing deploys its formidable financial resources and develops its strategic clout across the subcontinent, New Delhi faces capacity challenges to stem Chinese offensive in its own strategic backyard.

Prime Minister Modi’s new ‘Neighbourhood First’ policy, unveiled in 2014, has consequently focused on reaching out to other states to develop partnerships across the region. This balancing strategy marks a departure from India’s unsustainable efforts to insulate South Asia as its exclusive sphere of influence and deny space to any extra-regional actors.

Officially, these unprecedented outreach efforts are implicitly referred to as a partnership with “like-minded” countries.
According to Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar, in its quest for more “people-centric” connectivity projects and a “cooperative regional architecture,” India is “working closely with a number of other international players whose approach is similar.”

New South Asian partners

A range of examples speak volumes about this new strategy. With the US, India now conducts close consultations on smaller states such as Nepal, Bangladesh, or Sri Lanka. In 2015, following Japan’s permanent inclusion into the Malabar naval exercises, Tokyo and New Delhi developed a joint “Vision 2025” plan promising to “seek synergy... by closely coordinating, bilaterally and with other partners, for better regional integration and improved connectivity,” especially in the Bay of Bengal region. The Asia-Africa Growth Corridor, announced in 2016, further highlights India’s willingness to work with Japan to develop alternatives to China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI).

In 2014, India and Russia signed an unprecedented agreement to cooperate on developing nuclear power in third countries, with a focus on Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Year 2015 saw the first Australia-India Maritime Exercise (AUSINDEX) off India’s Eastern coast. And with the UK, India signed a statement of intent on “partnership for cooperation in third countries” with a focus on development assistance in South Asia, and held its first formal dialogue on regional affairs in 2016.

With Brussels, Paris, and Berlin, New Delhi has engaged in dialogues about maritime security and the Indian Ocean region, and shared intelligence to bolster regional counter-terrorism efforts. Finally, contrasting with its past reluctance to involve multilateral organisations, India has enthusiastically endorsed the Asian Development Bank’s South Asia Subregional Economic Cooperation (SASEC) operational programme for 2016-25, focused on improving connectivity between the subcontinent and Southeast Asia.

Expanding partnerships

While many of these partnerships are still nascent, there are measures that will allow their expansion across three sequential levels. First, to increase mutual consultation, New Delhi and extra-regional powers must invest in creating institutional mechanisms dedicated to sharing assessments on South Asia.

Under existing consultations, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or broader Asian strategic issues frequently overshadow Nepal or Sri Lanka. This must give way to specific bilateral dialogues on three specific regional vectors: political and strategic issues, with a focus on China, counter-terrorism, and maritime security; economic issues, with a focus on connectivity, trade, and investment initiatives; and developmental issues, with a focus on aid projects and other economic assistance initiatives.

Second, to increase the prospects for coordination, India and partners can identify bilateral areas for policy coordination across South Asia, agreeing to a division of labour that maximises each side’s advantage. In Bangladesh, for example, India has focused on political and capacity-building objectives, while Japan is concentrating its financial might in infrastructure projects. Similarly, there are also indications that India and the US have successfully coordinated their political postures on the Maldives, with a “good cop, bad cop” dynamic leveraging “carrots and sticks” to shape Male’s behaviour.

At the third and highest level, in order to contain China and advance concrete cooperation across South Asia, India and its extra-regional partners should aspire to integrate efforts and implement joint projects. This will require expanding bilateral dialogues to include third countries, on the model of the India-US-Afghanistan trilateral. Such partnerships could focus on a variety of specific sectors to strengthen third countries in the region, including joint disbursement, implementation and monitoring of development assistance; establishment of dedicated funds to facilitate infrastructure development or acquisition of military equipment; capacity-building training for administrative and security personnel; democracy assistance to strengthen good governance and the rule of law; and joint military exercises, focusing on humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations.

Challenges ahead

While India and its extra-regional partners develop efforts to consult, coordinate, and cooperate across South Asia, they will also have to prepare for a variety of challenges. First, extra-regional partners will have to continue to recognise India’s predominant role in the region and defer to its security concerns, whether real or imagined.

For example, by allowing India to “take the lead” and consolidate its role as a “first responder” to regional crises in recent years (such as the Nepal earthquake), the US has earned much goodwill in New Delhi. Second, as the region’s small states play an increasingly sophisticated balancing game, seeking to play off India and its partners against China, closer consultation and coordination will be key.

Finally, when it comes to the normative dimension of democracy and human rights, New Delhi and its like-minded friends will also face occasional tensions given their different priorities. For India, the focus is naturally on the short-term, with economic and security interests incentivising the pragmatic engagement of any regime type in its neighbourhood. While the West’s liberal interventionist impulse has receded, the US and European partners will, however, continue to privilege a value-based and long-term approach that emphasises pressure on authoritarian regimes.

This last challenge is currently playing out in Myanmar, with clashing Indian and Western positions on the importance of the Rohingya refugee issue. As former Indian diplomat Shiv Shankar Menon presciently noted in the late 2000s, “the desire for sanctions” is always “directly proportional to the distance from Myanmar of the country demanding it.”

Under rising international pressure, Naypyidaw is tilting back to China for support, further complicating India’s connectivity plans across the Bay of Bengal. Similar balancing dynamics can be observed in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and the Maldives, which further highlight how critical India’s global outreach efforts are to its quest to remain influential in its own region.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 13 Sep 2017 11:32

periaswamy wrote:" Till that, it's logical, but improving road infrastructure to Doklam and Tawang sounds illogical"

These are the same guys who randomly draw lines on the map and pretend it is their territory, whether on land or in the sea. Expecting logic from the actions of the CCP/PLA oiseaules maybe asking for too much. They are predators who need to be put in their place.


Building roads everywhere is the same as putting stakes in the ground. Territory becomes yours de facto because your roads, your stuff are there. Unless someone force them into a war to stop this, they'll continue. It is an insidious but brilliant strategy because 99.9% of the time nations don't break peace, especially since Cheen's industrial complex backs up those roads (or artificial islands at sea) with a menacing weight of civil and military hardware.

In peace time, you can respond to their strategy by building your own roads in disputed areas. But the chinis think they can outbuild anyone anywhere because of their financial and manufacturing base which is why they do this. In the SCS, this has proven them right as they simply overwhelmed the region with ships and man-made islands the other claimants can't match.

It is a long term strategy that costs them little since they have overcapacity in building infrastructure (which is spilling out into the trillion dollar OBOR project.)

They will do the same along the LAC for years and decades to come. Unless you have the financial and manufacturing muscles to match them during peacetime then it is far better to put a stop to it through war.

This strategy of theirs is anything but illogical because, again, nations are loath to fight over some roads. In fact, the fundamental flaw to this salami slicing plan is when someone resorts to war. Something that we should have done at Doka La.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2017 21:08

War must be last resort to settle disputes: Chinese General Qiao Liang - Shaurya Karanbir Gurung, Economic Times
The settlement of the Doklam standoff was "one of the best possible results" and war must be avoided, as peace is the best outcome, says a senior Chinese military strategist. These words written in an opinion piece for China's state run media, Global Times, indicate a marked difference from the earlier string of articles in the Chinese media demanding strong action and even threatening war during the stand-off.

The author, Qiao Liang, who is a Major General in the People's Liberation Army says, "The reason why so many Chinese people paid attention to the China-India border standoff in the Doklam area is that they are unfamiliar with China's strategic positioning. If they had a clear understanding of China's strategic positioning, they would know that the settlement of the Doklam standoff was one of the best results possible."


Indian and Chinese troops were engaged in a tense border stand-off for more than two months in the area of Doklam, seriously straining their relations.

Liang adds that, "China and India are both neighbors and competitors, but not all competitors must be treated in the toughest way."

He explains that it is not the appropriate time for China to continue constructing the road it was building in the Doklam plateau. "Many people would say that the road construction in China's territory was none of India's business. Is this belief right? It is reasonable to some extent because road construction in this area is not a matter of right and wrong, but we need to understand that it is not always right to do something right at any time. Only doing the right thing at the right time is correct. {Isn't this what exactly India was indirectly saying?} "


The author also writes that war should be avoided. "Many people think that China has a powerful national strength, including a strong military power, thus only war can demonstrate China's power. But resorting to war is irresponsible for the country and its future as war has always been the last resort to solve problems. Whenever there may be a way to solve a conflict without war, war should be avoided."


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