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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby svinayak » 31 Dec 2016 12:25

SSridhar wrote:

The statement pointed out that “members of 1267 committee have different opinions”. It stressed that China used to propose a “technical hold” in order to leave more time for the Committee to deliberate and related parties to further negotiate. “Unfortunately, no consensus has been reached so far.”

It said, “The actions China took in the committee aimed to maintain the authority and effectiveness of the Committee’s list and are in accord with Security Council resolution and Committee’s rules of procedure.”

The Foreign Ministry highlighted that “China will maintain communication with all related sides according to Security Council resolution and Committee’s rules of procedure.”


Why cant China ask JeM also be on hold and not attack India when China can find out a consensus.
That should be fair enough.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 31 Dec 2016 12:36

svinayak wrote:Why cant China ask JeM also be on hold and not attack India when China can find out a consensus.
That should be fair enough.

JeM is already included under UNSC 1267 but China argues that only its Chief's inclusion has all sorts of problems ! So, JeM can continue to attack India because it is already sanctioned and nothing more can be done. The UNSC 1267 sanctions are not effectively implemented. Nobody is pulling up Pakistan for the continued activities from its soil of LeT & JeM, both sanctioned under 1267. Nor is Pakistan being sanctioned for letting Hafeez Saeed to operate freely, give fiery speeches in meetings calling for jihad against India or collecting funds. When India brought up the funds issue in FATF, China again blocked it. China is acting as a Great (Fire)Wall around Pakistan placing on block its own prestige & credibility.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shashankk » 31 Dec 2016 13:43

panduranghari wrote:
shashankk wrote:Just wondering why India is not very enthusiastic about having a small naval base in Vietnam. Few years back I read some articles about Vietnam willing to allow India to their naval bases. Also opening consulates in Taiwan would cause some severe heartburn in China.
I still feel we are holding our punches and are not putting enough proportional to our size.


Rules dictate, don't post when you are drunk.

But to open bases, you need balls. Until Modi ji, I doubt there were any who had the balls or machismo. Even then I expect it won't happen in the immediate future. Bases will open when Vietnam is desperate.


Respected sir you have option to ignore comment if you dont like but dont hurl personal insult which may result in it being returned in kind.
FYI Only form of alcohol I ever consumed was prescription medicines.

I was not asking Indian navy to setup a full fledged naval base in Vietnam but we should definitely look to have some kind of arrangements there.
With Limited range of missiles we currently have in our nuclear submarines we should be patrolling south china sea which is where densely populated and industrial areas of china are.
At times just showing interest in something like this is more than enough to send message across.This expectation of India doing this is only because we have Modi as our PM and at least he should do it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 31 Dec 2016 17:07

Taiwan announces US itinerary for president, upsetting China - Reuters
Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen will transit through Houston and San Francisco during a January visit to allies in Latin America, her office said on Friday , prompting China to repeat a call for the United States to block any such stopover.

Tsai's office declined to comment on whether she would be meeting members of US President-elect Donald Trump's team, but the US mission in Taiwan, the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT), said the visit would be 'private and unofficial'.

Trump angered China when he spoke to Tsai this month in a break with decades of precedent and cast doubt on his incoming administration's commitment to Beijing's 'One China' policy.

An adviser to Trump's transition team said he thought 'further high-level engagement for the foreseeable future is unlikely' when asked if any meetings were planned. The adviser did not want to be identified by name.

China is deeply suspicious of Tsai, who it thinks wants to push for the formal independence of Taiwan, a self-governing island that Beijing regards as a renegade province, ineligible for state-to-state relations.

China's Foreign Ministry repeated a previous call for the United States not to allow the transit and not send any 'wrong signals to Taiwan independence forces'.

"We think everyone is very clear on her real intentions," the ministry said, without explaining.

The United States, which switched diplomatic recognition from Taiwan to China in 1979, has acknowledged the Chinese position that there is only 'one China' and that Taiwan is part of it.

Tsai is transiting through the United States on her way to and from visiting Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala and El Salvador. She will leave Taiwan on January 7 and return on January 15 .

Tsai will arrive in Houston on January 7 and leave the following day. On her return, she will arrive in San Francisco on January 13 , Presidential Office spokesman Alex Huang told in a regular news briefing.

The AIT said the transit did not contradict the 'One China' policy.

"President Tsai's transit through the United States is based on long-standing US practice and is consistent with the unofficial nature of our relations with Taiwan," Alys Spensley, acting AIT spokeswoman, told Reuters.

"There is no change to the US 'One China' policy," she added.


India also has a 'One India Policy' which includes the entire state of J&K as an Indian State. China must respect that including by returning the Shaksgam Valley to India and stopping all illegal activities in POK.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Austin » 31 Dec 2016 17:11

First let India get back its Kashmir (POK) from Pakistan and implement its own Parliament resolution that POK is part of Kashmir , then we can tell china what to do.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby JE Menon » 31 Dec 2016 17:20

Why POK first, necessarily?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bart S » 31 Dec 2016 17:25

JE Menon wrote:Why POK first, necessarily?


Defeatist, self-loathing mindset. Centuries of colonization (and mental colonization persisting to this day) that tells us that we are inferior and must jump through increasingly unrealistic hoops to somehow prove that we are worthy of even countenancing defiance.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 31 Dec 2016 19:59

Austin wrote:First let India get back its Kashmir (POK) from Pakistan and implement its own Parliament resolution that POK is part of Kashmir , then we can tell china what to do.

If we have re-taken POK from Pakistan, then where is the need to tell China what to do?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 31 Dec 2016 20:14

What I don't get, is why is India so eager to interact diplomatically with China. They should be the last on India's list where visits are concerned. Yet, they are near the top of the list. Indian visits to China, and Chinese visits to India, are given large prominence. This has got to stop. Treat China as a potential adversary. Downgrade China diplomatically, economically, everything. Damn! It's frustrating when the Indian government isn't doing what the people want it to do. Modi is better than most, but it's falling short.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SwamyG » 02 Jan 2017 05:16

So India ends up driving Mongolia towards China?

http://www.eurasiareview.com/30122016-i ... -analysis/

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby svinayak » 02 Jan 2017 11:22

China needs to be thought a lesson, soon. It is one of the most belligerent countries post World War 2. The following are some of the few examples of the same:
1) China occupied Tibet by brutal military conquest in the early 50s
2) China tags the Holy Dalai Lama as an aggressive separatist, whereas in reality, he is one of the most peaceful monks on
planet Earth. For example, Dalai Lama has received the Nobel peace prize
3) China occupied Indian sovereign territory of Aksai Chin in 1962
4) China claims Arunachal Pradesh, a sovereign state of India, as its own
5) China claims the sovereign nation of Taiwan as its own
6) China is crushing the freedom movement of the Uyghur province with an iron fist
7) China refused to accept the verdict of the international court regarding China's illegal islands in the South China Sea
8) China shields the terrorist Masood Azhar, who was released after hijacking an Indian Airlines flight 814, from an United
Nations (U.N.) ban
9) China calls the terror spreading state of Pakistan as its ''all weather friend''
10) China supports North Korea, a "Nazi-equivalent state" in the 21st century
11) China blocks India's rightful entry in the Nuclear Suppliers Group (N.S.G.)
12) China blocks India's legitimate entry in the United Nations Security Council (U.N.S.C.)
13) China arm twists its weaker neighbors such as land-locked Mongolia, by blocking land routes and charging steep taxes on
using ports and shipping, as Mongolia hosted the Dalai Lama

This is how India can contain China:
1) India must first sign smart military pacts with the US, Japan, Israel, and even with Russia and Australia, if possible
2) India must officially dismiss the ''One China Policy"
3) India must officially issue its maps with Tibet, Taiwan and Uyghur region as separate countries, i.e. just as China shows Kashmir and Arunachal as separate regions in its maps
4) On the other hand, India must allow maximum private Chinese investments into India. This way the Chinese would be under economic pressure too
5) India must start the process of disintegrating Pakistan once and for all. Pakistan is China's puppet in China's contain India policy
6) India must carry out massive, long-term and global anti-China campaigns
7) India must market the "Make in India" campaign aggressively and also develop the physical and financial infrastructure required for the same
8) After Pakistan is disintegrated India must open its borders with its friendly neighbors

To sum up, with a disintegrated Pakistan and an integrated sub-continent, and a free Tibet, there will be much lesser global terrorism and more global peace. Consequently, India will be more peaceful, prosperous and powerful.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby panduranghari » 02 Jan 2017 17:11

shashankk wrote:
Respected sir you have option to ignore comment if you dont like but dont hurl personal insult which may result in it being returned in kind.
FYI Only form of alcohol I ever consumed was prescription medicines.

I was not asking Indian navy to setup a full fledged naval base in Vietnam but we should definitely look to have some kind of arrangements there.
With Limited range of missiles we currently have in our nuclear submarines we should be patrolling south china sea which is where densely populated and industrial areas of china are.
At times just showing interest in something like this is more than enough to send message across.This expectation of India doing this is only because we have Modi as our PM and at least he should do it.


Sir,
I was talking about myself. I actually agree with you completely. I only feel we need political leadership to make your recommendation into a reality. And I think we do have one.
Sorry if I was not very coherent.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 04:26

Russia delivers Sukhoi jets to Beijing after Chinese military unveiled J-20 fighter - PTI
Russia has finally delivered four Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets to China after a delay of two years as Moscow feared that its fifth generation jet will lose value after Chinese military unveiled its J-20 stealth fighter, official media here [Beijing] reported.

The Su-35 is an advanced version of the Su-30s operated by the Indian Air Force+ .

The delivery was made on December 25, a news portal of the People's Liberation Army reported. Since the debut of the China's stealth fighter J-20 fighter at Zhuhai Airshow, procurement of the Su-35 fighter jets has gone quite smoothly.

Some say this is the outcome of the close relationship between China and Russia. However, the latter did not change its stance on the export of the Su-35 until the J-20 fighter was unveiled, state-run People's Daily reported.

Russia believes that with the commissioning of the J-20, the Su-35 will soon lose its value in the Chinese market. That estimation is the reason for the smooth procurement, the report said.

"One can only be independent when he is self-reliant," the PLA Daily article said expressing hope that the Su-35 fighter jet is the last fighter imported by China.

While China made advances in manufacturing of new type of fighter jets, it is still dependent on Russia for engines as well as avionics.

Under economic crisis Russia for its part has been selling some of its advanced weaponry to China in recent years.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 09:36

Earlier, I posted the following
SSridhar wrote:Lack of consensus in UN for ban, says Beijing - Atul Aneja, The Hindu
China on Friday cited the absence of consensus among members of a U.N. committee to explain its decision to block a ban,

The statement pointed out that “members of 1267 committee have different opinions”. It stressed that China used to propose a “technical hold” in order to leave more time for the Committee to deliberate and related parties to further negotiate. “Unfortunately, no consensus has been reached so far.” . . . .


In its latest avtar, the Indian request to UNSC under 1267 to include Masood Azhar under the list came up on March 31, 2016. At that time 14 members supported that and 1 blocked it. Since then, China has extended its 'technical hold' on 1st October and now 30 December citing various reasons such as 'not enough information', 'not meeting requirements' etc. At one point of time, it even suggested that India should talk to Pakistan on this. And, now, it says that there is no consensus among members. This is strange considering that except for China, there was unanimity to start with. It may be that the Chinese have worked behind the scene, by repeatedly blocking and thus gaining time, to cause some dissension.

Now, the reason is clearer. China plans to exploit the incoming non-permanent members coming in by rotation.
India to hold talks on Masood resolution - Suhasini Haidar, The Hindu
[b]Officials also indicated that India would now consult the U.S., the U.K. and France, which had co-sponsored the resolution, as well as Bolivia, Ethiopia, Kazakhstan, and Sweden, which joined the UNSC on January 1, on the next steps to be taken.

China’s block

India’s submission against Azhar was dropped by the 1267 ISIS/Al Qaeda Sanctions committee on Friday, after China converted its “technical hold” into a block or veto of the proposal.

“We will need to consult other co-sponsors on how to proceed [on the move to ban Azhar]. Also, new members have joined the Security Council so we will consult them.” a senior government official told The Hindu .

The Union Home Ministry and the Ministry of External Affairs are understood to have been working on the next proposal to the UN Security Council committee to designate Masood Azhar’s brother Abdul Rauf Azhar as well.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 09:41

Now that China has totally blocked the issue, it necessitates India to move a totally fresh application. Because five non-permanent members retired by rotation and five new members have come in, India is forced to brief them as well and it also increases the possibility for China to play some games behind the scene with the new members to cause disunity unlike last time when 14 voted ‘for’ and only China ‘against’ the proposal. The Chinese government’s latest explanation that there were ‘different opinions’ within the UNSC on the Masood Azhar issue pointed to this possibility because it is known for certain that the erstwhile UNSC had no such ‘differences’. China is lying about 'differences'.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2017 10:38

SSridhar wrote:
Austin wrote:First let India get back its Kashmir (POK) from Pakistan and implement its own Parliament resolution that POK is part of Kashmir , then we can tell china what to do.

If we have re-taken POK from Pakistan, then where is the need to tell China what to do?


If we cant do small things and cant take care of No 1 threat to the life of soldiers and people of country then its just day dreaming to say we can take out china.

First let us deal with terrorism that kills our soldiers daily in kashmir and since 2.5 decades killes thousand of civilians in India.

I like this talk of lets deal with China and I am all for it but when I see that we can barely dent the Pakistanis in all this decades this gives me little hope

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby GShankar » 03 Jan 2017 10:41

^^+108

If we can't handle jihadis, we can't handle comlades. There was also this other post about mongolia looking for our help and we blinked. The signs don't bode well.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2017 10:43

JE Menon wrote:Why POK first, necessarily?


The No 1 threat of India is Terrorism sponsored armed and funded by Pakistan , We lost many thousand life in India due to terrorism sponsored by Pak and logistically done by POK ......I am sure you might be aware of the Terrorism Mumbai itself faced so many times where I live and many terrorism attack sponsored by Pakistan , I am not even counting the many thousand and lakhs of life that our Soldiers lost in 2.5 decade of Pakistan sponsored terrorism.

These things affect our life regularly in India and daily in Kashmir .......it would be putting blinkers in our eyes when we dont deal with the most immediate threat.

China is our strategic competitor but Pakistan is an existential threat to us in many ways and so far via proxy has taken thousand of life

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 11:23

Austin wrote:
SSridhar wrote:If we have re-taken POK from Pakistan, then where is the need to tell China what to do?


If we cant do small things and cant take care of No 1 threat to the life of soldiers and people of country then its just day dreaming to say we can take out china.

First let us deal with terrorism that kills our soldiers daily in kashmir and since 2.5 decades killes thousand of civilians in India.

I like this talk of lets deal with China and I am all for it but when I see that we can barely dent the Pakistanis in all this decades this gives me little hope

Do you think I am such a novice and a jingo that I have no idea about the disparity in capabilities between India & China ? Do you believe that I said that India should 'take out' China? Read my earlier post carefully. I have simply said that like China repeating about 'One China', India must also claim 'One India'. Nowhere did I say, go to war etc.

Who would have any argument with the issues you have raised and what have they got to do with what I said?

It is also not true that we must do things strictly serially. First this, then that etc.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 11:54

Some questions being raised within Pakistan - DT
The legislative body of the Upper House on Monday expressed concerns over the impunity with which some banned militant organisations continue to operate in the country. They have demanded zero tolerance for banned organizations, and called for implementation in letter and spirit of the Justice Faiz Isa report on the Quetta carnage.

The committee discussed the report of the judicial commission on the Quetta carnage of Aug 8 2016, recently revealed by Justice Qazi Faez Isa. The committee regretted that the government could not take the Justice Qazi Faez Isa report serious, which clearly identified failure on the government's part.

Taking up the issue of protection to some banned outfits, Senator Farhatullah Babar questioned the rationale behind protecting Jaish e Muhammad chief Moualna Masood Azhar from sanctions by the UN. He said that the Chinese government would not have stepped in to protect the Jaish unless the government of Pakistan had so asked. "We need to know why an outfit that is banned in Pakistan as a militant organisation should be protected from sanctions by the UN," he said, demandeding that the government come clean on it. "This dichotomy raised serious questions about what we say and what we do," he said. The committee decided to ask for clarification from the government on the issue.

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Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 03 Jan 2017 17:35

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

Donald Trump won't tolerate 'dual role' from India's neighbours, says US's Republican Hindu Coalition

NEW DELHI: US President-elect Donald Trump reportedly made it clear to a US Republican Hindu group that he's "not going to tolerate a dual role from India's neighbours."

Shalabh Kumar, an Indian-American businessman and founder of the Republican Hindu Coalition told ANI that this was the message Trump conveyed in his meetings with him. Kumar is part of Trump's transition team.

"The US President-elect made that policy very, very clear, that he is not going to tolerate a dual role from India's neighbours,"
said Kumar referring to Pakistan.

"You need good defence cooperation among friends, which is happening but is going to accelerate dramatically in the common fight against terrorism ,"
Kumar added, according to ANI.

Kumar is reportedly closely associated with the BJP and the RSS, according to The Economic Times. He held a rally for Trump in New Jersey, in the final leg of the Presidential campaign, and donated a whopping $898,000 (approximately Rs 6 crore) towards Trump's campaign.

Another of Kumar's goals - and Trump's, according to him - is to increase trade between India and the US in one year to $300 billion from the current $100 billion. "That will be a win-win for both sides as both will gain millions of jobs," Kumar said.

Kumar and his daughter Manasvi Mamgai , a former Miss India, also revealed there will be Bollywood celebrities performing at Trump's inauguration as President on January 20.

"You will see Bollywood biggies, Bollywood entertainment and all the 'jhatkas' and 'matkas'," Mamgai said.

She was extremely hopeful about Trump's relationship with India.

"I think Trump is going to be the best US president for India so far as he has shown support to us, he's very vocal about it," Mamgai said.

In November, after Trump's win, Kumar said he was confident the President elect will approve a bill to declare Pakistan a terror state. "President Trump and PM Narendra Modi will undoubtedly share a good chemistry," he said back then.
In September, two influential US Congressmen, for the first time ever, introduced a legislation to designate Pakistan a terror state by the administration in Washington. Congressman Ted Poe, chairman of the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, along with Congressman Dana Rohrabacher introduced the 'Pakistan State Sponsor of Terrorism Designation Act' in the House. The legislation calls on the US administration to provide a report on designating Pakistan a state sponsor of terrorism.
Cheers Image

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TSJones » 03 Jan 2017 18:06

BS.

Until trump says he is pulling out if Afghanistan, no such thing is going to happen. end of story.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2017 18:32

Hopeful China would agree on Masood Azhar issue: Rajnath Singh - PTI

Interacting with the media here [New Delhi], Singh said, "We still expect China to support our stand."


India is looking increasingly pathetic, hoping after hope that China would relent.

At the end of Ms. Swaraj's visit to China in Feb 2015, we expressed optimism. Then, the Chinese put a technical hold in April that year on our request to list Hizbul Mujahideen chief and head of the ‘United Jihad Council’, Syed Salahuddin, under 1267. Then, in June 2015 at India’s request demanding action against the release of the 26/11 Mumbai attack mastermind Lakhvi by the Pakistani courts, was blocked by China citing insufficient information.

The Indian Prime Minister spoke to his Chinese counterpart after that and the Indian Foreign Minister, Ms. Sushma Swaraj also took up the matter with her Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi. Within a few days, China again stood by Pakistan at the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) meet at Brisbane where New Delhi had strongly raised non-compliance by Islamabad on freezing assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba and its affiliates.

In Ufa (Russia) where Prime Minister Modi met the Chinese President Xi Jinping on July 8, 2015, he raised the Lakhvi issue and spoke very candidly about India’s concern. In November 2015, during the Indian Home Minister, Rajnath Singh’s state visit to China, the issue was taken up once again and Rajnath Singh expressed optimism. The Indian Ambassador also said “We have agreed to work towards a new bilateral agreement which will provide contours of cooperation in counter-terrorism, security, and related trans-border crimes,” All this optimism came to a nought within five months after the cross-border attack by Jaish-e-Mohammed terrorists on the Pathankot Air Force base (PAFB). In late January, 2016, armed with its investigation, India approached the UNSC Sanctions Committee 1267 yet again to sanction JeM Emir Maulana Masood Azhar. On April 1, 2016, just two hours before deadline, China placed a ‘technical hold’ on the Indian request citing insufficient information and after consulting Pakistan.

Reacting to the news, Modi seated to the left of the American President Barack Obama with the Chinese President Xi Jinping seated to Obama’s right in the Nuclear Security Summit at Washington said, “The reach and supply chains of terrorism are global; but genuine cooperation between nation states is not”.

There were a series of high-level meetings coincidentally between Indian and Chinese leaders in the third week of April 2016 and the Maulana Masood Azhar’s case in the UN was taken up forcefully by the Indian side. First, it was the April 18 meeting between Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj and her Chinese counterpart Wang Yi on the sidelines of the RIC meeting in Moscow, "I told him (Wang) that if we were to fulfil our intention of fighting terrorism together, then China should review the stand it had taken at the UN 1267 Committee," Swaraj told a joint press conference.

On the same day, the visiting Indian Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar met his Chinese counterpart Gen. Chang Wanquan in Beijing. On China’s role in blocking U.N. sanctions on Masood Azhar, Mr. Parrikar said that he “expressed his feeling [that] it was not exactly the right direction that they [the Chinese side] have taken.” Reacting to these, the Chinese embassy in New Delhi said, “China is against all forms of terrorism. We have put a technical hold, not a veto. It is not an issue between China and India. We would prefer that you talk to Pakistan.”

The next day, the Indian NSA Ajit Doval met his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi for the 19th round of border talks and the Masood Azhar issue figured prominently there.

Again, a few hours before the ‘technical hold’ was to expire on October 1, 2016, China decided to extend the ‘technical hold’ once again. This also prevented India from placing further facts before the 1267 Committee. China defended its last-minute ‘technical hold’ by saying there were “different views” on India’s application and that Beijing’s move will allow more time for the “relevant parties” to have consultations.

In the Goa BRICS summit in October 2016, China prevented India from including in the joint statement any reference to terror organizations like LeT or JeM, though both are sanctioned by the UNSC including China, but allowed only the mention of the IS and Jabhat-al-Nusra. During the Leaders’ Restricted Meeting, the Indian PM, Modi, had referred to Pakistan when he said, “Tragically, the mother-ship of terrorism is a country in India's neighbourhood.”. The next day, answering a question on the issue, the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman strongly defended Pakistan saying, “We oppose linking terrorism with any specific ethnicity or religion. This is our long-standing position. China and Pakistan are all-weather friends. Both India and Pakistan are victims of terrorism. Islamabad has made great sacrifice to combat terrorism and this needs to be recognised by the international community”.

Finally, on December 30, 2016, the last day when the technical hold on the Masood Azhar issue was about to lapse, China totally blocked it necessitating India to move a totally fresh application.

On January 3, 2017, Rajnath Singh voices 'optimism' that China would see light !!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2017 18:43

Liaoning carried out flight operations in South China Sea


Image

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2017 21:15

here is a chinese sepoy, tho thweet.

can anyone make out through which hole the creep is sermonizing ??



Let’s admit it, China is not our enemy


Let’s admit it, China is not our enemy

UDAY BALAKRISHNAN

Our myopic view of the Asian giant is influenced by western prejudices. China can be a great partner in India’s growth

It is time we Indians did a rethink on China and reconfigured our relations with that country while it is still possible. Unfortunately, we are being driven by an early 20th century mindset, conjured grievances, a sclerotic military-bureaucratic complex and an insecure, anxious West, to confront our largest neighbour and most important trading partner — one that has historically never been our enemy.

In the process, we are not satisfied with effectively shoring up our defences against China, but are also bent on challenging it militarily in our near and extended neighbourhoods.

There is little subtlety in the kind of relations we are trying to forge with Japan or the quasi military cooperation emerging with Vietnam; both are the outcome of our China phobia.

Lately, there is also an overemphasis on an unstated alliance with the United States, a fickle partner in the best of times, and now, with the emergence of Trump, heading into an isolationist hole, compelling countries, especially those in SE Asia to seek individual accommodations of their own with China.

Driving China away

In the process, we are diverting billions, to achieve the impossible and also the most unnecessary — matching China militarily, and geopolitically through a string of measures guaranteed to reinforce a rivalry that is clearly unaffordable and already counterproductive. It should not be lost on us that China is far richer than we are; soon after India announced a $2 billion package for Bangladesh, China committed twelve times that amount.

The lasting outcome of our stand-off against China is to have driven it firmly on to Pakistan’s side. That is something we must do everything possible to reverse. It is bad enough to have one enemy at the gate, it is positively foolhardy to persist with two, especially when one of them need never have been our foe in the first place, and can be our friend again.

It also makes abundant sense for us to join hands with China to make for durable peace — surely even with Pakistan — and accelerate development in our neighbourhood.

This is something the West, directly at war in Afghanistan since 2001, has failed to achieve, despite the enormous cost in human lives and money! The US military expenditure there peaked at around $200 billion in 2008 and continues to be over $50 billion today.

Chinese network

That is the kind of transformational money that China is pouring into the region, building roads, ports and railroads across Asia with results for all to see. The first freight train to Europe was flagged off on its 9,800-km journey to Hamburg in 2015 and another arrived in Tehran earlier this year, covering long distances, through Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan from Zhejiang province.

Within the next few years China would have connected by rail and superhighways to all of Asia and be at our doorstep in the East, the West and the North.

It would make abundant economic and commercial and even strategic sense to plug into this network rather than persist with our getting-nowhere efforts to connect to south-east Asia by rail and road.

In fact, feelers for this have been unmistakable coming from China on and off and we should be smart enough to make the best of them rather than feel threatened and besieged.

After Mongolia and Russia, China has its longest border with us and that too in arguably in one of the most geologically challenging parts of the world. The Himalayan glaciers are melting faster than anyone expected them to and our major river systems, on which millions depend, are seriously endangered.

At the end of the day, we need to accept that we can never hope to mitigate the impact of climate change without China’s cooperation. So, what should we do?

For a start, we’d do well to acknowledge that we seriously erred in making an enemy of China in the first place and worse, sustaining the hostility for over a half a century and more.

chetak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2017 21:21

China National Defence Daily has called on the local government and military to setup counter-espionage efforts after photos of the 001A aircraft carrier under construction in Dalian was published by Kyodo News.

Image

It said that the publication should be a “wake-up call” to China to better protect its military secrets.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 03 Jan 2017 21:26

“China blocked a recent Indian move to blacklist Jaish-e-Mohammad's chief Masood Azhar at the UN. In a DW interview, Siegfried O Wolf explains why China is protecting the Pakistan-based militant group's head.” :

Why is China 'protecting' the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammad militant group?

China's protection of Masood Azhar is only one component of the Chinese campaign to provide Pakistan its diplomatic support, which includes informal "lobbying work" to prevent Pakistan from being listed as a state that sponsors terrorism


China's counter-terrorism measures exclude the US and India. Chinese authorities have historically treated New Delhi as a geopolitical rival. India's close ties with the US are also perceived as a threat in Beijing, therefore China prefers not to cooperate with India.


China is indirectly encouraging Pakistan to continue its state patronage of cross-border terrorism.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RKumar » 03 Jan 2017 21:47

Indian policy makers will never change, they can keep living in fools paradise as long as they let the military prepare for the future show down. No more free lunch to any nation, Indian leaders did so many political blunders. Whenever we had advantage, our leaders gave it up due to personal high moral ground. It is not their personal property to give it away, they have to think about national objectives then personal prestige. Strategic national defence related issues should be discussed with military experts by the political class.

I hope, we don't sign any more agreements with China/Pak. It is better to wait then trying to sort out issues in rush. It is OK to lose next war then giving away claim on Aksin Chin or PoK. Losing a war is not bad as long as we give back injury which they remember.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2017 22:22

There is a method to the Chinese madness of encouraging nuclear proliferation to TSP and North Korea. it got revealed in their reply to the Trump tweet about not doing enough to rein in North Korea.
China replied they are working for a nuclear free Korean peninsula. Implication is they want US to work out a treaty for denuclearization of Korean peninsula as quid pro quo. It removes the threat of nearby nukes from China's Eastern wing.

By same token all this dram in UN etc., is to work out a de-nuke treaty between TSP and India.

This is their objective.
To achieve this they might encourage TSP to go rogue on India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ShauryaT » 03 Jan 2017 22:34

@ramana: ^completely agree with the above view. N. Korea and Pakistan BOTH claws of PRC.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RKumar » 03 Jan 2017 23:10

If USA is smart, they should encourage South Korea to have offensive approach towards NK to call off PRC bluff. I would even go to extent of bombing NK to destroy their Nuclear and Missile threat when it is still infancy then waiting for them to have 10s of nuclear devices. Like us, USA/SK have to increase the cost for China/NK.
Last edited by RKumar on 04 Jan 2017 03:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby IndraD » 04 Jan 2017 00:21

ramana wrote:By same token all this dram in UN etc., is to work out a de-nuke treaty between TSP and India.

This is their objective.
To achieve this they might encourage TSP to go rogue on India.

+101

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby V_Raman » 04 Jan 2017 02:41

+102

The interests of P5 align in this even if we get into NSG. The ultimate goal is to de-nuke India! The only solution is to split Pakistan further.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jan 2017 04:06

I agree with what Ramana says.

I recall my earlier post on the same lines.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2017 04:22

Rajaram has written some good posts on another arena. Will compile them here. It gives very good insight into China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chanakyaa » 04 Jan 2017 06:41

SSridhar wrote:I recall my earlier post on the same lines.


SSridhar wrote:.... China therefore opposes India in UNSC, NSG etc because it feels that its is not *YET* there because its n-power status is illegal as it has not signed NPT and is not considered as a n-weapons state. But, it believes that India can be disabused of the notion that Great Power status comes from possessing n-weapons by emphasizing that it comes from a great economy and China could be its partner to achieve that and once that is achieved, India can join the high table.

SSridhharji, you have some interesting thoughts in your posts, but are you not giving too much credit to Chinese by rationalizing their reasons of resistance? Whether it is opposing blacklisting of Paki terrorists in UN, outright support to TSP, encroachment of Indian land, or NSG opposition, it is clearly a behavior of a bully who is constantly getting bigger and bolder in its bullying actions by constantly pushing, cornering, and at the same time, to its credit, learning meaningfully from the *inaction* of its enemy/adversary, India. Bully's biggest source of strength is the *inaction* of its victim; while praying that hope one day the victim does not respond in an unimaginable way. Ukraine/Syria are decent examples of it and also example of what happens when victim responds. China has been pushing India for decades and continue to push in multiple ways; while learning a lot about India's weaknesses (source being lack of meaningful leverage). Great power is all relative.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jan 2017 07:53

chanakyaa wrote: . . . are you not giving too much credit to Chinese by rationalizing their reasons of resistance? Whether it is opposing blacklisting of Paki terrorists in UN, outright support to TSP, encroachment of Indian land, or NSG opposition, it is clearly a behavior of a bully who is constantly getting bigger and bolder in its bullying actions by constantly pushing, cornering, and at the same time, to its credit, learning meaningfully from the *inaction* of its enemy/adversary, India. Bully's biggest source of strength is the *inaction* of its victim; while praying that hope one day the victim does not respond in an unimaginable way. Ukraine/Syria are decent examples of it and also example of what happens when victim responds. China has been pushing India for decades and continue to push in multiple ways; while learning a lot about India's weaknesses. Great power is all relative.

chanakya ji, of course, China is bullying and audaciously too. See their behaviour on just one issue, that of Masood Azhar as we all know. I have posted above the sequence of events. But, that behaviour is not restricted to India alone. Its bad, arrogant behaviour is everywhere from Indo-China Sea through the Indian Ocean to West Pacific. The underlying thesis is that China feels that it has reached a stage where it brooks no competition to its Greatest Power status. The two nations that stand in its way are the US immediately and India in the distant future. It wants to directly take on the US without defocussing caused by India, a wannabe power which still has a long way to go. However, it wants to snuff out the Indian threat or at least contain it reasonably well through its proxy, without itself expending much political, diplomatic, economic or military energy. It is taking a minimum energy trajectory. Hence it provides all out support to Pakistan.

The Chinese action is to attain the Greatest Power on Earth status within the next decade.

Of course 'power' is all relative, as you say, but, it is the clear and increasing distance between oneself and the other powers behind chasing you that one always wants to maintain. Ultimately, in this power game, morality is also a relative term.

We cannot keep on talking about 'Vasudeiva Khutumbakam' in this milieu. Of course, if we are very clever we can keep saying all such inane things while pursuing our interests vigorously & relentlessly.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jan 2017 08:28

X-post from India-Taiwan thread

A_Gupta wrote: Taiwan labour envoy plan

Taiwan labour envoy plan
CHARU SUDAN KASTURI

New Delhi, Jan. 3: India may soon have unusual "ambassadors" in Taiwan - not diplomats but labourers from the northeastern states hired by the island that Beijing claims and New Delhi does not recognise diplomatically.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has laid the ground for an unparalleled "quantum jump in relations" between India and Taiwan, which is now also eyeing labour from India's Northeast as a bridge towards deeper bilateral ties, the island's top diplomat here has said.

The comments by Taiwan's trade and cultural representative in New Delhi, James Tien, in an interview to The Telegraph represent the biggest public acceptance in years of tightening ties between India and the island that are likely to leave China uneasy.

They come at a time India and Taiwan have quietly inked a series of pacts - previously unreported - ranging from agriculture to railways since September and are exploring a mechanism by which Indian labourers can work on the island.

Last month, Indian parliamentarians also formed a first-ever forum to promote friendship with the island, days after Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen shook Beijing with a telephone conversation with US President-elect Donald Trump.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2017 08:36

There is a method to the Chinese madness of encouraging nuclear proliferation to TSP and North Korea. it got revealed in their reply to the Trump tweet about not doing enough to rein in North Korea.
China replied they are working for a nuclear free Korean peninsula. Implication is they want US to work out a treaty for denuclearization of Korean peninsula as quid pro quo. It removes the threat of nearby nukes from China's Eastern wing.


That makes sense.

But, Trump also stated that he would like to reduce forces unless the local nation contributes more. This could force certain issues in the region. And China is going to pay a bigger price if that were to happen.

I think the ball got rolling with the Taiwanese president transiting through the US. This has gone beyond tweets.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem » 04 Jan 2017 08:52

NRao wrote:
Th
But, Trump also stated that he would like to reduce forces unless the local nation contributes more. This could force certain issues in the region. And China is going to pay a bigger price if that were to happen.I think the ball got rolling with the Taiwanese president transiting through the US. This has gone beyond tweets.


Trump team have indicated they will encourage Japan and SOKO's strategic independence . Even Biden has whispered in Chinese Ears that Japan can go Nuclear within few months whenever the decision is made. From our POV, Japan, SOKO and Vietnam all 3 should have strategic saw to cut through PRC paws and toes pinching its selfmade foes.


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