Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-2014)

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby JE Menon » 11 Jan 2015 21:29

Britpaki Asghar Bukhari, founder of Muslim Public Affairs Committee on Skynews, gets reamed by Douglas Murray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27FBUpokmIo

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Tuvaluan » 11 Jan 2015 22:30

From tarek fatah's twitter feed:

Tunisian cleric Bechir Ben Hassan calls on congregation to kill anyone cursing Prophet Muhammad. Quran authorizes it. http://youtu.be/vE4tUJuEKZQ


And the "liberal" fools "with superior values" in the kafir world don't want to state that Islam is the root cause of the Hebdo kind of violence.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby A_Gupta » 11 Jan 2015 22:39

Charlie Hebdo - context
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/1 ... me-context
Please read the whole thing.
These cartoons took aim at the distance between the actual teachings of various religious leaders, primarily Muhammad and Jesus, and the behavior of their followers. The following covers illustrate this (and contain representations of Muhammad, so, for those who don't want to see that, don't click!). In one, Cabu's Muhammad, seated on a cloud, has his head in his hands, weeping and saying "It's tough to be loved by a--holes". This cover by Charb, captioned "If Muhammad came back..." shows a kneeling Prophet about to have his throat slit by a Jihadi fighter, with the following dialogue: -"I am the Prophet, stupid!" / "Shut up, you infidel!".

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby A_Gupta » 11 Jan 2015 22:50

http://www.dawn.com/news/1156372/look-t ... d-in-paris
Look to Ibb to understand what happened in Paris

In the western foothills of the Ba’adan Mountains in Yemen, there lies a city called Ibb. It rains there the whole year-round and the region has been given the nickname, ‘the green province’. The city was an important administrative centre during the times of Ottomans.

On December 31, 2014 around 500 people, mostly Zaidi Shias living there since centuries, gathered together at a cultural centre in Ibb to celebrate Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) birthday.

Around 11 am, a suicide bomber blew himself up in the congregation, killing as many as 49 people.

....

The Prophet’s birthday, called 'Mawlid', has always been an important occasion for the majority of Muslims around the world. From Cairo to Jakarta, there are carnivals, celebratory gatherings, and collective prayers on this particular day. Muslims in different countries celebrate it according to their respective indigenous cultural traditions.

Lately, however, the Mawlid celebrations have come under attack in different parts of the Muslim world by the hardline militants that consider this ritual incompatible with Islam. Recently, on January 2, 2015, Saudi Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz had pronounced such celebrations as sinful in Riyadh.

Thus, within a few days, people were killed in two different parts of the world – Paris and Ibb – both in the Prophet's (PBUH) name: avenging disrespect of the Prophet, and for celebrating his birthday.

But both attacks are an assault on values near and dear to the people.

The rationale is to coerce people into giving up their respective traditions, intimidate them, and impose a particular ideology through the barrel of gun.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Manny » 11 Jan 2015 23:55

The United States probably has the most stringent "Free speech" laws. Most other western countries "Hate speech" is heavily restricted including in France. You cannot spout antisemtic stuff in many EU countries.. same goes for Australia and NZland. Groups like the KKK can openly operate only in the US.

So the idea that the west has a universal values of Free speech is bullshit!

Quote

“In 1998, DDB, a leading advertising company, apologized and paid thousands of dollars in compensation when Catholics sued them for making a VW Golf ad that mocked Leonardo Da Vinci’s Last Supper. Why? Because the French Catholic community was offended.”

That’s very nice they are sensitive to the Catholics feelings…They go out of their way to be nice to them.

“In 2008, Charlie Hebdo fired its famous cartoonists, Siné, on charges of “anti-Semitism.” Siné had merely suggested that President Sarkozy’s son Jean was going to convert to Judaism to marry the heiress of a prosperous appliance chain. And what happened in 2013 when the French Muslims sued Charlie Hebdo for publishing a cover page with the headline, “The Koran is shit – it doesn’t stop bullets?” They were dubbed “Islamists” and given a lecture on free speech.”

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Jan 2015 00:06

^^^ from the link previously provided, this is the purported explanation:

Actually, "offensively anti-Muslim" is a completely wrong description of Charlie Hebdo's cartoons, at least from the point of view of the people who drew them. As a rule, the cartoonists did not attack Muslims as Muslims (whereas the sacked cartoonist did attack Jews as Jews, hence the sacking), and they did not even attack Islam per se. Rather, they attacked Islam as one element of a larger set of revealed religion, all equally hateful. They expressed a deep hatred of organized religious institutions, first and foremost, and for most of them (but not all) a rejection of all religious thinking. This is what their work was all about: attacking religious authorities and sometimes religion in general, and this blanket attack grew straight from the French revolt against an extremely oppressive Catholic Church in the 18th century.


PS: an advertising company is going to apologize to whomever is offended - its job is advertising after all. Not at all the same as a satirical magazine (e.g., Punch, Mad, etc.)

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby vishvak » 12 Jan 2015 00:24

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ from the link previously provided, this is the purported explanation:

Actually, "offensively anti-Muslim" is a completely wrong description of Charlie Hebdo's cartoons, at least from the point of view of the people who drew them. As a rule, the cartoonists did not attack Muslims as Muslims (whereas the sacked cartoonist did attack Jews as Jews, hence the sacking), and they did not even attack Islam per se. Rather, they attacked Islam as one element of a larger set of revealed religion, all equally hateful. They expressed a deep hatred of organized religious institutions, first and foremost, and for most of them (but not all) a rejection of all religious thinking. This is what their work was all about: attacking religious authorities and sometimes religion in general, and this blanket attack grew straight from the French revolt against an extremely oppressive Catholic Church in the 18th century.


PS: an advertising company is going to apologize to whomever is offended - its job is advertising after all. Not at all the same as a satirical magazine (e.g., Punch, Mad, etc.)

Great find, A_Gupta ji! In India, it is the other way around :rotfl: - those who critique organized religion are censored and pilloried in organized MSM, while those who critique Hindus for being who Hindus are call themselves 'leftists' etc.

The organized MSM seems to be another organized set up by itself, it seems.

Notice how the organized MSM never critiques mistreatment of Jews or other minorities in France or for that matter even ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits. So what are these organized to do or to justify is a legitimate query.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby dsreedhar » 12 Jan 2015 01:03

Asghar Bukhari is of pakistani origin as per wiki. So i cannot expect better from his views.
His view is that it is okay to criticize christian or the majority community, but the same criticism on minority muslim community would be demonizing them, and need to be condemned.
Can his views be extended to the umma lands and all muslim majority countries? Hell no...
For quite some years, the islamist clerics all over the muslim world have been issuing fatwas to anyone or anybody who in the slightest form criticize islam or mohammad and slap blasphemy on them. The extremists go berserk and seek out to kill and avenge the fatwa issued individuals.
Individuals are not spared and terrorized from any criticism in muslim lands and non-muslim lands. Media in muslim lands is not upto the task. So it is upto the media in the western world to challenge and make the criticism.
Essentially muslims have become more intolerant all over and a slightest criticism and you brace for a bullet. This cannot continue and is a threat to freedom of expression and speech.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KJo » 12 Jan 2015 01:25

My Muslim buddies in FB are busy defending Islam, after the Paris attack. And these are good guys I know them personally.
"not every Muslim is a terrorist"... "the killers are not Muslim" etc.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby dsreedhar » 12 Jan 2015 03:27

"not every Muslim is a terrorist" is getting old broken record now. Most terrorists are muslims and most muslims share the ideology and support them. Slowly this is being realized in the western countries. I had an american colleague who did serve in the Afghan war on terror. He was probably in his early 30's. He was so mad at the Pakis and really cursed and bad mouthed them.
The political correctness is hurting Europe. They are struggling to curb muslim immigration on the basis on religion for being termed as racists. They should start taking some baby steps at least to get a handle of the menace. They should heavily scrutinize the immigrants. Also cut down on the welfare and benefits and put limits per family and 2 kids. The welfare is what drawing the immigrants in hordes especially from the muslim countries.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby anmol » 12 Jan 2015 04:38

Fiery 'We Need to Kill Them': Judge Jeanine Says It's Time to Stop Islamic Terror
by Fox News Insider, insider.foxnews.com
January 11th 2015



We need to kill them. We need to kill them, the radical Muslim terrorists hell-bent on killing us. You're in danger. I'm in danger. We're at war and this is not going to stop.

After this week's brutal terror attacks in France, hopefully everybody now gets it. And there's only one group that can stop this war: the Muslims themselves.

Our job is to arm those Muslims to the teeth. Give them everything they need to take out these Islamic fanatics. Let them do the job. Let them have at it. And as they do, we need to simply look the other way.

It is time for this to be over and stop sending American dollars to any Arab country that does not support this mission, Pakistan at the top of the list.

Force Arab nations to choose. They're either with us or they’re against us. And stop with this nuclear negotiation nonsense. They don't operate the way we do. You can't negotiate. You can't mediate. You can't bargain. You can't even reason with these people!

Now, Egyptian President el-Sisi - a Muslim in a country 85-percent Muslim - rid Egypt - the largest Arab country - of Islamic fanatics. He threw out Hamas terrorists and outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood, the mother of all terrorist organizations.

And ironically, days before the attack in France that same President el-Sisi called for a religious revolution to take out violent jihadists. He called on the imams and the religious establishment to lead the fight, saying the entire world is waiting for their next move.

I've been telling you for a year that they're coming for us. That there is a reverse crusade in progress, a Christian genocide. Hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in the Middle East.

Seven months ago, I said that we needed to bomb ISIS as it began to steamroll through Iraq. Bomb them. Bomb them. And bomb them again. For which, I was roundly criticized.

Our country's response to this threat? The FBI destroys tens of thousands of documents deemed offensive to Islam. The CIA removes the word "Islamic" before terrorist in the Benghazi talking points. The Ft. Hood massacre, the Oklahoma beheading, both workplace violence. Are we morons?

Of course, none of this should be a surprise given that our president invited the Muslim Brotherhood to fill the first two rows of his "apology for being an American speech" in Cairo in 2009.

And as we cower to these Islamic fanatics, our president and former Secretary of State Clinton say they will prosecute the man who made the video - free speech be damned!

They call murders accompanied by "Allah Akbar" workplace violence. This surrender is nothing more than a coward's response to the fear of this fanatical terrorism. And this political correctness will be the death of us.

They can kill us, but we can't hurt their feelings? I'm surprised there isn't a new executive order that simply says "don't offend Muslims".

And make no mistake - as sure as I’m talking to you - there will be efforts to limit our First Amendment - our free speech - to comply with Sharia blasphemy laws which call for death to those who slander the prophet Mohammad.

At a time when we have never been in more danger, our president is focused on free community college on his continuing his march to reduce the size of the military and eviscerate our national security.

Our government's response to the terror threat is to have interfaith dialogue, to try to understand and empathize with our enemy. And when they want to shut us up, they call us "Islamaphobes."

Muslim groups like CAIR and the Nation of Islam have been integrated into our society. Muslims were even invited to worship at the national cathedral in Washington, DC.

We are directed by a political correctness so bizarre so disconnected from reality that it does nothing but assist our enemy in our own destruction.

They have conquered us through immigration. They have conquered us through interfaith dialogue. And they have conquered us by co-opting our leaders into a position of embarrassment.

Now he Prime Minister of France - just a few hours ago - stated that France is at war with radical Islam. Why can't our president even say the words “radical Islam” or "Islamic terrorists" - let alone protect us Americans.

It's not like we haven't suffered from these fanatical terrorists. Thousands of Americans have died at their hands: the World Trade Center, U.S.S. Cole., Tanzania, Ft. Hood, Benghazi.

When the head of MI5 - one of the most secretive positions - shows his face to the world saying that Britain is going to get hit next , it is time to get serious.

And as this Islamic cancer metastasizes throughout the world - Boko Haram in Nigeria, Al-Shabaab in Somalia, Ansar al-Sharia in Libya, Al Qaeda, ISIS - and as it goes through Europe, it is headed our way.

Our forefathers gave up everything, their fortunes, their families, their lives to create a government where free speech and freedom of religion were sacrosanct.

This surrender, this refusal to call it what it is is an insult to my father, my grandfather and everyone who served in armed forces, who fought to protect what is sacred to every American.

Yes, it is time for this to be over.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jan 2015 05:34

I caught a little nugget when watching Bill Maher's show. Namely that the Paris killers were known to smoke marijuana, aka hashish. Maher laughed at it as an example of hypocrisy and the ruining of a good high.

This could be something, or just a fun CT, but I am wondering if the smoking and the style of attack isn't a re-enactment of the M.O. of the Hashhashin, who are alleged to have given shape to the dreams of houris in paradise that await the pious killers. Incidentally the hashashin--who gave us the word "assassin" are supposed to be the ancestors of the Ismailis, led by today's Aga Khan, who bankrolled Pakistan.

Should Paris's Clousseaus be asking for the whereabouts of the Aga Khan (or his pet racing goats) right around the time of the Hebdo killings?

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby shiv » 12 Jan 2015 06:51

KLNMurthy wrote:@shiv can you comment on the role if Russia in the Islam vs the Rest equation?

Interesting question. When I wrote that post Russia did not come to mind at all and now after you ask, I am still struggling to fit Russia in.

Unless I am totally mistaken, Russia has never been part of the dar-ul-Islam/dar-ul-harb fight. Europe's fight was led by France and Britain in the main, with Germany, Spain and Italy as also-rans. The Arab Europe fight is with those nations. Russia was blessed by relatively less jihadi Central Asian neighbours who were part of the USSR. Other than support to Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Iran as part of geopolitical meddling in the cold war days, Russia has never actively entered any fight against islam.

In some ways Russia, India and China have something in common. Islam has declared war against all three states without any of those states actively interfering with the ummah - and in fact with all 3 mostly being on the side of Islamic nations. It is Europe and the US who have ravaged and dominated the Islamic lands. Ironically it is the US and Europe who have armed and encouraged Islamic action against India and the USSR. So the Islamic blowback against the west should come to both Russia and India as a cool breeze of Schadenfreude.

It seems to me that neither Russia nor India need to lift a finger to assist Europe or the US against their war. If the US and Europe stop helping Islamic countries that are anti-Russia or anti-India, Islamism itself will become weaker. Islamism has grown with western support and western money and it has grown because the ummah were goddam stupid and agreed to fight wars for Europe and the US.

I think Pakistan is a key nation here. What the west does with Pakistan is going to be crucial in deciding the way the world heads in future. Sorry if I could not give a specific answer.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby arun » 12 Jan 2015 10:13

arun wrote:Newspaper reports that terrorists who carried out slaughter at offices of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo were shouting the Mohammadden religious slogan of “ Allahu Akbar ” making this an act of Intra Abrahamic violence with adherents of Mohamaddenism slaughtering adherents of Christism for a slight.

Christist majority France’s recent act of appeasing Mohammaddens, in particular Mohammadden Arabs at the expense of the Jewish majority fellow Abrahamic Israel by granting recognition to overwhelming Mohammadden majority Palestine, has clearly failed to placate Mohammaddens. It would be prudent of Christist majority USA to realize that appeasing Mohammaddens in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by generous donations of arms that would be used to harm India, is not going to buy them immunity from Mohammadden wrath as the French have found out ......................... {Rest Snipped} ....................:



Even after being subjected to the slaughter conducted by Mohammadden Terrorists at the offices of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, France continues with its policy of appeasing Mohammaddens at the expense of Jewish majority fellow Abrahamic Israel by pressing Israeli Prime Minister not to attend the memorial march for the victims of Mohammadden Terrorism.

France it seems is solidly entrenched on the path of Mohammadden appeasement given the presence of a large and belligerent Mohammadden population within France brought on by a seriously flawed immigration policy that was overly generous to Mohammadden immigration. Our, as in Indian, security and foreign policy establishment must take note of this :

Hollande asked Netanyahu not to attend Paris memorial march

[i]Absence sought as part of attempt to keep Israeli-Palestinian conflict out of European show of unity; After Netanyahu insisted on coming, French made it clear Abbas would be invited as well.

By Barak Ravid | Jan. 12, 2015 | 4:08 AM

French President Francois Hollande conveyed a message to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over the weekend asking him not to come to Paris to take part in the march against terror on Sunday, according to an Israeli source who was privy to the contacts between the Elysees Palace and the Prime Minister’s Office in Jerusalem. The fact that this message had been conveyed was first reported by Channel 2.

After the French government began to send invitations to world leaders to participate in the rally against terror, Hollande’s national security adviser, Jacques Audibert, contacted his Israeli counterpart, Yossi Cohen, and said that Hollande would prefer that Netanyahu not attend, the source said.

Audibert explained that Hollande wanted the event to focus on demonstrating solidarity with France, and to avoid anything liable to divert attention to other controversial issues, like Jewish-Muslim relations or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Audibert said that Hollande hoped that Netanyahu would understand the difficulties his arrival might pose and would announce that he would not be attending.

The source noted that one of the French concerns - not conveyed to representatives of the Israeli government - was that Netanyahu would take advantage of the event for campaign purposes and make speeches, especially about the Jews of France. Such statements, the Elysee Palace feared, would hurt the demonstration of solidarity the French government was trying to promote as part of dealing with the terror attacks.

According to the source, Netanyahu at first acquiesced to the French request. In any case, the Shin Bet security service unit that protects public figures considered the arrangements for the prime minister’s security to be complex. And so, on Saturday evening, Netanyahu’s people announced that he would not be flying to Paris because of security concerns. Netanyahu told the French he would come to France on Tuesday for a Jewish community event.

The French apparently sent the same message to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Like Netanyahu, Abbas acceded to the French request and released a strange statement about the same time Netanyahu released his, that he would not be attending the event because of the bad weather.

However, on Saturday night, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Economy Minister Naftali Bennett announced their intention to go to Paris and take part in the march and meet with the Jewish community. When Netanyahu heard they were going, he informed the French he would be attending the march after all.

According to the source, when Cohen informed Audibert that Netanyahu would be attending the event after all, Audibert angrily told Cohen that the prime minister’s conduct would have an adverse effect on ties between the two countries as long as Hollande was president of France and Netanyahu was prime minister of Israel.

Audibert made it clear that in light of Netanyahu's intention to arrive, an invitation would also be extended to Abbas. And indeed, several hours after Abbas announced that he would not be traveling to Paris, his office issued a statement stating that he would in fact be at the march.

Hollande's anger at Netanyahu was evident during the ceremony held Sunday evening following the march at the Grand Synagogue in Paris, an event attended by hundreds of members of the local Jewish community.

Hollande sat through most of the ceremony, but when Netanyahu's turn at the podium arrived, the French president got up from his seat and made an early exit.

Upset at Netanyahu, Hollande also presumably preferred to avoid a rerun of the 2012 ceremony for the victims of the Toulouse shooting – to which Netanyahu arrived just as he was commencing his elections campaign.

The French weekly La Canard Enchaine revealed then that Hollande complained in closed talks after that event that he found it unfortunate that Netanyahu had come to Paris to conduct a "two-staged election campaign," starting with a memorial for those murdered at the Jewish school in Tolouse, followed by a his speech at a ceremony there. The French president was quoted by the report saying that it was only because he came with Netanyahu to the ceremony that the Israeli prime minister toned down his speech.

Sources in the Prime Minister's Bureau said Sunday that when contacts were first made with the French over Netanyahu's trip this week, they were told that the visit could "cause difficulties." According to the sources, the Israelis understood that the French were referring mainly to security issues. They added that after the security arrangements were made, Hollande told Netanyahu in a phone call on Saturday evening that he would be happy to see him.

Associates of Netanyahu said that at no point did the French tie Netanyahu's visit in with that of Abbas.


Hollande asked Netanyahu not to attend Paris memorial march : Absence sought as part of attempt to keep Israeli-Palestinian conflict out of European show of unity; After Netanyahu insisted on coming, French made it clear Abbas would be invited as well.
Last edited by arun on 12 Jan 2015 10:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby member_22733 » 12 Jan 2015 10:17

France was screwed over by Nazis back in the day. Today they get screwed over their civilians from the former colonies who have taken to Islam as a means to redeem what was righteously theirs. Islam is a potent post colonial redemption weapon, but that it is also a soosai weapon is beside the point.

The French are truly effed. Just a matter of when.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Kati » 12 Jan 2015 10:36

Pardon me if this has been posted before. But these statistics are very important

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... -polls.htm

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby member_20317 » 12 Jan 2015 15:03

shiv wrote:In some ways Russia, India and China have something in common. Islam has declared war against all three states without any of those states actively interfering with the ummah - and in fact with all 3 mostly being on the side of Islamic nations. It is Europe and the US who have ravaged and dominated the Islamic lands. Ironically it is the US and Europe who have armed and encouraged Islamic action against India and the USSR. So the Islamic blowback against the west should come to both Russia and India as a cool breeze of Schadenfreude.

It seems to me that neither Russia nor India need to lift a finger to assist Europe or the US against their war. If the US and Europe stop helping Islamic countries that are anti-Russia or anti-India, Islamism itself will become weaker. Islamism has grown with western support and western money and it has grown because the ummah were goddam stupid and agreed to fight wars for Europe and the US.


A loser nation ends up getting used (IOW abused). Muslims believe they constitute a nation. Their nation lost the crusades and they are today the abused party. It is also relevant that Muslims themselves are also the abusers in the rest of the world, not even shying from aligning with the west to abuse the pagans whenever and whichever way, they get the chance to do it. If you look at it carefully, an internecine intra-abrahmic party is completely different from an abrahmic-pagan party. Muslims and west are merely same to same. Muslims are the ones finally left unsuccessful and are merely the loser aspect of the white west. White west is the successful aspect of muslims. Change the win-loss situation and the ‘essence of the civilization’ changes.

Read the following if you like and tell us why is Pope Urban II not equal equal Osama Bin Laden or Awlaki. What exactly is the difference.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Crusades.htm#.VLOY0SuUeSo
Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission.
Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.


Having said that from a pagan’s POV which borders on OT here, crap is carp even if it smells of perfume. Terrorist action in france is just plain wrong. Identification of that wrong as it is, is important because it helps us correct our own world view.

But the real wrong from our POV arises when nothing other than that one attack rules the airwaves half a world away in India. Kerry in Vibrant Gujarat gets Charlie Hebdo attacks in the airwaves surreptitiously (we all stand with france and all that nonsense). UndieTV had Raveesh delivering lectures on how the freedom of expression has been hurt by the Charlie Hebdo attacks, and equating the attack with wombs cut open. All delivered in chaste Hindi. These people have no shame. Undie never covered the Nigerian massacre. They never covered the 40 Hindus who died in Middle east. They did not even cover the reality of Christian paramedics rescued by Indian agencies. And these very same Christians will run propaganda against us. Thus IMHO the truth is that the Charlie Hebdo attack is bad. So is the earlier support that the West had given to the Syrian invasion. And above all else we Indians should take active steps to ensure that we can keep ourselves safe from these two drug-crazy kids of Abraham. And what is relevant for us is relevant for China and Russia too, whether they follow any of it is their choice.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jan 2015 18:24

^^^
What has amazed and dismayed me is the virtually complete erasing of the 1971 genocide if Hindus of Bangladesh from the public consciousness. Not even Hindu "fascist" organizations talk of it, let alone strive to fit it into any analysis of Islam or Pakistan.

Even on BRF, there is much rah-rah about our military victory, and of course geopolitical stuff about splitting of Pakistan, but hardly anything about the one true certifiable genocide of our times in an era where nearly everything is labeled genocide. I was alive during 1971 and simply could not have predicted that this would be the case.

There hasn't been, to my knowledge, any active or effective campaign by Pakistan to bring about this erasure. So how did this happen? How could we forget?

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby pankajs » 12 Jan 2015 19:08

Conscious decision by powers on both sides of the ideological divide along with the media too prevent a version of *Civilization conflict* so dear to Bakis from being played out within India.

A campaign against Pakistan for targeted Hindu killings will necessarily highlight Muslims killing Hindus on a mass scale because of religion. No one knows what forces will be let loose within India if such a cause was taken up and widely publicized but everyone thinks it will have major consequences. That has allowed Bakis off the hook. Fair or not but they are right and so everyone has decided to keep quite.

OTOH, Bangladesh raising it as a Bengali genocide perpetrated by the Bakis and punishing the collaborates is perfectly acceptable. Making it a *racial* (or whatever term is appropriate excluding religion) genocide issue is perfectly acceptable and does not trigger alarm bells within India.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jan 2015 20:02

pankajs wrote:Conscious decision by powers on both sides of the ideological divide along with the media too prevent a version of *Civilization conflict* so dear to Bakis from being played out within India.

A campaign against Pakistan for targeted Hindu killings will necessarily highlight Muslims killing Hindus on a mass scale because of religion. No one knows what forces will be let loose within India if such a cause was taken up and widely publicized but everyone thinks it will have major consequences. That has allowed Bakis off the hook. Fair or not but they are right and so everyone has decided to keep quite.

OTOH, Bangladesh raising it as a Bengali genocide perpetrated by the Bakis and punishing the collaborates is perfectly acceptable. Making it a *racial* (or whatever term is appropriate excluding religion) genocide issue is perfectly acceptable and does not trigger alarm bells within India.


But the genocide has not been raised at all, whether as a Hindu genocide or as a Bengali genocide. I am still left at a loss wondering why Hindus are so uninterested in raising the matter. True, they may not get the MSM to go along, but has it been a recurrent theme in Panchajanya for example?

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jan 2015 20:13

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:@shiv can you comment on the role if Russia in the Islam vs the Rest equation?

Interesting question. When I wrote that post Russia did not come to mind at all and now after you ask, I am still struggling to fit Russia in.

Unless I am totally mistaken, Russia has never been part of the dar-ul-Islam/dar-ul-harb fight. Europe's fight was led by France and Britain in the main, with Germany, Spain and Italy as also-rans. The Arab Europe fight is with those nations. Russia was blessed by relatively less jihadi Central Asian neighbours who were part of the USSR. Other than support to Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Iran as part of geopolitical meddling in the cold war days, Russia has never actively entered any fight against islam.

In some ways Russia, India and China have something in common. Islam has declared war against all three states without any of those states actively interfering with the ummah - and in fact with all 3 mostly being on the side of Islamic nations. It is Europe and the US who have ravaged and dominated the Islamic lands. Ironically it is the US and Europe who have armed and encouraged Islamic action against India and the USSR. So the Islamic blowback against the west should come to both Russia and India as a cool breeze of Schadenfreude.

It seems to me that neither Russia nor India need to lift a finger to assist Europe or the US against their war. If the US and Europe stop helping Islamic countries that are anti-Russia or anti-India, Islamism itself will become weaker. Islamism has grown with western support and western money and it has grown because the ummah were goddam stupid and agreed to fight wars for Europe and the US.

I think Pakistan is a key nation here. What the west does with Pakistan is going to be crucial in deciding the way the world heads in future. Sorry if I could not give a specific answer.

And we haven't even brought into the picture the ongoing Muslim conquest of Africa.

It seems to me that India, China and Russia have all, in their way, been playing defense against the Muslim pressure for centuries; India losing more ground and Communist China and Soviet Russia rather less, with post-Soviet Russia and neo-capitalist China now starting to feel the pressure. In the cases of Europe, China, and Russia, it seems that Islam was held in check by a similarly aggressive and virulent religion--Christianity in one case, and Communism in the other. India may be alone in surviving with a non-expansionist ideology, and that may also explain the relatively larger losses India suffered. It also explains why there is such visceral fear and loathing of politicized Hinduism and even the desultory ghar wapasi movement; Muslims and their vassals have a better sense of history than we do.

A hundred years from now, if this trend keeps up and is not reversed, it may well be that Islam will win and humanity will lose onlee.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby shiv » 12 Jan 2015 20:31

KLNMurthy wrote:India may be alone in surviving with a non-expansionist ideology, and that may also explain the relatively larger losses India suffered. It also explains why there is such visceral fear and loathing of politicized Hinduism and even the desultory ghar wapasi movement; Muslims and their vassals have a better sense of history than we do.

A hundred years from now, if this trend keeps up and is not reversed, it may well be that Islam will win and humanity will lose onlee.

I made a long rambling post of thoughts in the WU thread.

Nation states with constitutions, communist states and Islam are all competing "top->down" governance systems where a book+people on top rule the masses.

India has a bottom->up (Hindu?) system of justice and problem solving at individual and local community level on which the top-down Indian constitution has been super-imposed. People's revolutions on the ground and even riots and instant justice are mechanisms that bypass top->down system where the latter is ineffective or unfair. They are necessary where the laws do not protect community interests.

If the state does not protect your interest you need to protect it, and if you are a supporter of the state you need to support both the state and your interests. Anyone who excludes himself from protecting the state and looks after his own interests needs to be helped to see the light.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jan 2015 20:44

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:India may be alone in surviving with a non-expansionist ideology, and that may also explain the relatively larger losses India suffered. It also explains why there is such visceral fear and loathing of politicized Hinduism and even the desultory ghar wapasi movement; Muslims and their vassals have a better sense of history than we do.

A hundred years from now, if this trend keeps up and is not reversed, it may well be that Islam will win and humanity will lose onlee.

I made a long rambling post of thoughts in the WU thread.

Nation states with constitutions, communist states and Islam are all competing "top->down" governance systems where a book+people on top rule the masses.

India has a bottom->up (Hindu?) system of justice and problem solving at individual and local community level on which the top-down Indian constitution has been super-imposed. People's revolutions on the ground and even riots and instant justice are mechanisms that bypass top->down system where the latter is ineffective or unfair. They are necessary where the laws do not protect community interests.


Ok, let's say that's correct. For bottom-up people's justice to work as intended, the collective oral memory has to be preserved intact through the generations. The local memory idea might be an answer to my other question: why have Hindus ignored the '71 Hindu genocide? Because it was far away from local concerns.

So, the local, bottom-up mechanism is incapable of discerning what is happening "outside the well," though it may be effective in dealing with local challenges and coming up with some sort of equilibrium with Islamic forces.

I think the Bangladesh genocide example indicates that the local, bottom-up response model is rapidly becoming unviable as a defense. Capturing of Delhi by Hindus becomes significant in this light.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby shiv » 12 Jan 2015 20:57

KLNMurthy wrote: why have Hindus ignored the '71 Hindu genocide?

Just out of curiosity, how did you find out that it was a hindu genocide mainly. I now know it was - but despite being mature enough to read and understand news in 1971 I never found out that it was mainly Hindus that were killed. The confirmation came from the book "The Blood telegram" in which Indira Gandhi and her advisors specific advice was to keep the Hindu-killing nature of the genocide secret because they did not want anti-Muslim riots in India.

So here we have an explanation for what happens in India. Provocations against Hindus are hidden from Hindus by the government because Hindu retribution would complicate the secular tolerant nature of the state. I think Gujarat changed things somewhat.

Even today communal tension in India is reported as "two communities" in a dispute. Could be Martians and Alpha Centaurians if the Indian government is to be believed.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby member_20317 » 12 Jan 2015 21:11

@KLNMurthy

There are many aspects to it. There is a national objective in not importing wars. Then there was a claim I heard that IG and Hindu sangathan had reached an agreement to keep it so. There is equally a social aspect to it. An individual aspect too. Merely classifying a Hindu world in a Bottom-up and a Top-down, easy to understand and pick up approaches would only give more frustrations.

There are many types of Indians and many types of Hindus and many types of Hindutvavaadis.

You are raising this as an issue because you belong to only one of the several types and you probably want to sound out the other kinds if they have arrived at similar conclusions. There was a time when concepts like Tap, Sahan-shakti, Dhairya, Shradha, Aadar-Satkar, Swabhiman were massively sewn into our collective conscience. That got abused overtime. Result was that a part of our existence has either hibernated &/or just become क्षीण. You lose what you don't use. The place of these things has been taken over by other things (not worth enumerating in this context).

In such a situation it is you who has to see what he has to do. It is a good observation that you have made. Now how should it affect you. I am not asking for an explanation. What I am trying to say, in this foreign language, is that we are still to secure our freedom in many respects and some of our resources need to be rationalized in their application and recall. Now that you have an observation would it be wrong to say that it leads to a conclusion too. What is that conclusion? Does it suggest that there is a different kind of need to handle this observed phenomena. Probably instead of the Tap of our collective existence we would need to hold out a Chunauti. Instead of Sahan-Shakti we perhaps require Sankalp. Instead of Dhairya we would require Tatparta. In fact Tatparta is considered the state of Yoga too. These later concepts are also very much our own but unlike the earlier set of values, these have survived in our deeds even as they are seen to be too dangerous in Hindu hands, for more important things like world peace. Even with these later described concepts we still can have our own Swabhimaan. Wonder if you have noticed how every word in Hindi and even more so in Sanskrit begins to have a life of its own in a manner that it needs the absolute for its existence but not other words of the sentence for itself. Such a structure of understanding will by its very nature force a rediscovery of lost ideas. Thus even if we seem to be losing in certain respects we are still gaining in certain other, which by their self have enough actuation force behind them to bring about a birth of lost socio-genetic material.

Moving on you have made your observation in a situation where MSM is controlled by 'others'. Your own people today get fed this steady diet of MSM propagated sensibilities. So much so that current generations and are fast losing their own grip on their history. Why would this sort of concord allow a person like you to voice your concerns and your take on reality. They do not depend on you for their salaries. How do you control them? Again now that we know this how should we modify our behaviour to take care of our needs. Would it really help the matter that BD genocide which was essentially a genocide of Hindus be propagated by Hindu sangatans. Or would it be wiser to keep this information in the back of our minds while Chunauti/Sankalp/Tatparta are employed every step of the way forward. Those that are dead are gone forever. But it does fall on those who remain indebted to those people to exercise discretion even when they strive to right the wrongs.

BTW the MSM these days do carry stories revolving around 62 and 65 wars. Even 71 is dealt with appropriately. Every few days you will find a documentary or other in one channel or the other. The more gruesome aspects of it all is only for the katibadh people. Katibadh on finding and dealing with the truth. And boy there are not very many of these. There are aspects of truth that escape grasp, that are dark, slippery and frustrate human attempts at understanding them. Let the capable people strive towards these. What point saddling up a bunch of gadhas to raise a cavalry?

Hope I made sense.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby shiv » 12 Jan 2015 21:14

Added later:

LK Advani needs to be given credit for a bottom-up yatra that. But the lid really blew off at Godhra.

1992, 2002 and 2014 are actually connected

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby gandharva » 12 Jan 2015 22:52

:D
Image

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby JE Menon » 12 Jan 2015 23:29

Robert Fisk :) that paragon of virtuous journalism...

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby anmol » 13 Jan 2015 00:38

China has just banned the burqa in its biggest Muslim city – Quartz
by Lily Kuo, qz.com
January 12th 2015 5:27 AM

Chinese authorities have banned women in Urumqi, the capital city of Xinjiang—an autonomous western region where Muslims account for almost half of the population—from wearing burqas in public, according to a brief article on a government-run website, Tianshan News. Local legislators for Urumqi proposed the ban in December, and now the regional legislature has approved it.

It’s not clear when the ban will go into effect. State media said only that it will be implemented after being modified to meet comments proposed in a meeting over the weekend.

What is clear, though, is that moves like these are likely to further alienate an already disenchanted minority group—the Uighurs, who feel their culture and economy is being overrun by Han Chinese. Ever since a group of Uighur Muslims went on a killing spree in a train station in Kunming last March, Chinese officials have ratcheted up restrictions on a group they see as potential extremists. Xinjiang officials later banned students and civil servants from fasting for Ramadan, and authorities in the Xinjiang city of Karamy barred anyone wearing burqas, niqabs, hijabs or simply “large beards” from taking public buses.

Despite—or as a result of—these measures, attacks and clashes involving Uighurs have only increased. Today, police in Shule county, near Kashgar, shot dead six attackers who were allegedly trying to detonate a series of explosives. Militants attacked police, residents, and officials in Shache county in August, leaving almost 100 dead.

The state-run news agency Xinhua justified the burqa ban by pointing out that burqas are also banned in France (perhaps not the best example to use, given the recent extremist attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo). The Xinhua report in English said, “Burqas are not traditional dress for Uighur women… The regulation is seen as an effort to curb growing extremism that forced Uighur women to abandon their colorful traditional dress and wear black burqas.”

But as long as Chinese officials tell residents they will be safer if religious expressions are kept to a minimum, these measures are likely to continue. Zhang Haitao, an activist based in Urumqi, told Radio Free Asia, “You can’t deprive the freedom of a small portion of people to maintain the stability of the society. But here, for a long time, the authorities have been kidnapping public opinion in the name of stability.”

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby rajsunder » 13 Jan 2015 02:18

ravi_g wrote:@KLNMurthy

There are many aspects to it. There is a national objective in not importing wars. Then there was a claim I heard that IG and Hindu sangathan had reached an agreement to keep it so. There is equally a social aspect to it. An individual aspect too. Merely classifying a Hindu world in a Bottom-up and a Top-down, easy to understand and pick up approaches would only give more frustrations.

....................


She could have done that after the war when the generals were in our own hands as POW's if she wished to do so.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Jan 2015 03:15

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: why have Hindus ignored the '71 Hindu genocide?

Just out of curiosity, how did you find out that it was a hindu genocide mainly. I now know it was - but despite being mature enough to read and understand news in 1971 I never found out that it was mainly Hindus that were killed. The confirmation came from the book "The Blood telegram" in which Indira Gandhi and her advisors specific advice was to keep the Hindu-killing nature of the genocide secret because they did not want anti-Muslim riots in India.

So here we have an explanation for what happens in India. Provocations against Hindus are hidden from Hindus by the government because Hindu retribution would complicate the secular tolerant nature of the state. I think Gujarat changed things somewhat.

Even today communal tension in India is reported as "two communities" in a dispute. Could be Martians and Alpha Centaurians if the Indian government is to be believed.

I find it hard to answer your question accurately. I have always been fascinated by the genocide, hardly believing that such wickedness was possible. I can't say when it became clear in my mind that it was a Hindu genocide. IIRC media of the time carried enough details of the killings( specifically the lungi checks) including excerpts from the Mascarenhas article (which is a definitive documentation that it was a genocide and a genocide of Hindus at that). Plus the disproportionately skewed refugee population would have been another data point. I think there must have been less inhibition about revealing the composition of the refugees and victims.

IIRC the now-defunct Imprint magazine (later outed as a CIA project) carried an abridged version of the Mascarenhas article, in 1971 itself.

I would say, having re-read the Mascarenhas article, it was not mainly but solely a Hindu genocide, which also killed any Bangla Muslims who were seen as opposed to the Pakis.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Jan 2015 03:24

@ravi_g

If you mean, the question for each of us is what we propose to do with the knowledge of the genocide, then I am with you.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Jan 2015 03:41

The "march" in France is a bloody worthless joke and not remotely funny.

Consider:

1) The Saudi Arabian Govt. and the Turkish PM (who was enacting the crusades this morning) are "marching in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo". The Saudi Barbarian scumbags just lashed a blogger 1000 times and sent him to 10 years in prison for "offensive blogging".

This is the Turkish PM literally reinvoking the ottoman empire and the crusades today:
https://twitter.com/ByegmENG/status/554643187869179904/photo/1

On top of this, all the "moderate muslims" who are "in solidarity" with hebdo are whining and moaning about Netanyahu marching "in solidarity" (because he killed muslims in palestine) but not a word about the saudis or turkish PM marching in support of "freedom of expression". Same old islamist Taqiyya cr@p all over again - this is tiresome, but hey, if this is a war between europe and muslims, the best thing to do is to wait until europe becomes more islamic. Then it will be wonderful place to be, like Pakistan is. More islam for Europe seems right. After all Islam is blameless and a wonderful religion even if it produces large numbers of murderous aholes who will kill on a whim if they are "offended".

2) Most of the newspapers "in solidarity" with Hebdo have given themselves a pass on actually doing something that would imply solidarity, like having a cartoon of Mohammed on their front pages. After a lot of hullaballoo, The WSJ Indian version "mint" chickened out and did not publish anything "sensitive".


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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby member_22733 » 13 Jan 2015 04:05

JE Menon wrote:Robert Fisk :) that paragon of virtuous journalism...


The piece has to be read to be believed. My God, I thought only journos in India are prone to delusions:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 65715.html

His Bin Laden company - not to be confused with the larger construction business run by his cousins - is paid in Sudanese currency which is then used to purchase sesame and other products for export; profits are clearly not Mr Bin Laden's top priority. :rotfl: :rotfl: :mrgreen:

How did he feel about Algeria, I asked? But a man in a green suit calling himself Mohamed Moussa - he claimed to be Nigerian although he was a Sudanese security officer - tapped me on the arm. 'You have asked more than enough questions,' :mrgreen: he said. At which Mr Bin Laden went off to inspect his new road.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Jan 2015 04:40

The stupid self-righteous wanker Christine Fair thinks Charlie Hebdo is islamophobic, when they were clearly not. Even the muhammad cartoons were more about the violent followers of the religion than the guy. Nothing new about her shooting her mouth off without comprehending WTF she's getting indignant about. Points to the silly wapo article as being very reasonable.

Fair: "Being a racist, Islomophobic bigot doesn't make you a hero...even if you are killed because you are that very bigot "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/why-the-charlie-hebdo-attack-is-not-about-images-or-free-speech-commentary/2015/01/08/3b058c10-9778-11e4-8385-866293322c2f_story.html

However, this ban does not extend outside the mosque. Various Muslim cultures show a comfort with painting and figural representation. Images of Muhammad, his family, prophets and other holy figures exist. They are on display in museums throughout the world. In some, the faces are obscured, but in many, the faces are on full display.


Another "moderate muslim" liar. Muhammad's images being in display on museums is hardly the issue now is it? Of course, if he guy had bothered to list out the museums where he claims these exist, we can all start counting the days before someone destroys those pieces in the musems after being "offended". Effing Taqiyya wherever you turn.

Charlie Hebdo has a right to publish whatever it wants. At the same time, the material was racist. It did not matter if the images were going after Muslims, blacks or Jews; it was always about reinforcing racial and religious hierarchies.


Islam is not a race and mocking religious ideas is not racism -- a rather fine point that seems to bypass this cretinous academic CFair who is defending this "moderate muslim" mofo who is making this an issue about muslims rather than the cold-blooded murder of artists.

Terrorism is political theater, and this terrorist act was meant to silence non muslims from mocking Mohammed, and it is clearly working.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Jan 2015 04:57

Ayaan Hirsi Ali puts it bluntly

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-how-to-answer-the-paris-terror-attack-1420672114

After the horrific massacre Wednesday at the French weekly satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, perhaps the West will finally put away its legion of useless tropes trying to deny the relationship between violence and radical Islam.


Not like anyone in "the west" is listening, as they fall all over themselves to declare that religious ideology had nothing to do with this terrorism.


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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2015 06:05

Tuvaluan wrote:Terrorism is political theater, and this terrorist act was meant to silence non muslims from mocking Mohammed, and it is clearly working.

Just a thought.

In a system where the government imposes a ban on such mockery and treats those who flout the ban as law breakers, then the mockery/lampooning is not supported as a "right" of some sort. The lampooning then slips down to individual level where jokes are made in a hush-hush manner and "subversive" literature is exchanged. This is what happens in India. The government pretends that they do not allow such stuff and the people pretend that they are law abiding. The government can then claim to be blameless and blame individuals if any are caught.

In a system in which the government does not interfere with people giving voice to such humour and purports to support that in the name of the "right to free speech" (such as the system in France) - it then becomes the government's responsibility to defend that right. When individuals are targeted and slaughtered because of a "right" that is bestowed upon them by the holy French government the government cannot go scot free. If the government cannot protect that right, then either the government must bow down to Islamists and ban such literature like the Indian government, or they must have a disclaimer that says "Oh you have a right to say such things but do so at your own risk". This is what western governments seem to do. That means free speech is not a right, its simply hypocrisy.

The concept of "free speech" as a right that is bestowed or restricted by some sovereign sitting above you is a flawed one. Governments cannot legislate speech.

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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-20

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Jan 2015 07:01

Shiv wrote:
If the government cannot protect that right, then either the government must bow down to Islamists and ban such literature like the Indian government, or they must have a disclaimer that says "Oh you have a right to say such things but do so at your own risk". This is what western governments seem to do. That means free speech is not a right, its simply hypocrisy.


Shiv saar, Totally agree. The "west", especially countries like the USA, which cry hoarse about how "free speech" is supreme are the first ones to grease up and bend over for the islamists, demonstrating the utter powerlessness of the "super power" government against a ragtag bunch of criminals and murderers, who don't extend the same sensitivity to others that they demand for themselves. The GOTUS may as well get rid of the "first amendment" or at least have a note that says "just for effect…speak freely at your own risk" given how they are dealing with islamist thuggery.

Earlier today, there was a program on see-enn-enn on how "Obama admits to mistake of not joining the Paris march", and the entire program was less about support for "free speech" than it was to pacify the "muslim world" while pretending to stand in solidarity with "right to free speech".

At least the Indian government is open and unhypocritical about handing over the bottle of baby oil to the religious fundamentalists and bending over in submission. I am starting to buy the thesis that India's justice system is guaranteed not by the state (as it does not have the capacity to do so) but by society at large, which is of course uncontrolled and mostly mob justice and innocent people get hurt…but that is only one step removed from the "jury system" where everyone goes through a complicated song and dance before societies prejudices are imposed on the victim(s). If the State is going to claim that it will protect the constitutional rights of everyone, the it better do so, or just leave the way for the affected people to take law into their own hands -- just tying down the hands of one group while allowing other groups to violate the rights of everyone is not going to work long term, right or wrong.


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