Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014

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vishvak
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby vishvak » 30 Oct 2014 16:05

It is not our problem that a few countries -US/Europe and Saudi/Qatar have formed a gang. What we need is a Shia corridor to Iran (for oil, culture, etc) and Sikh corridor to Afghanistan(same). If anyone has problems, they can join ummah in Pakistan while we should work for our interests.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Brad Goodman » 30 Oct 2014 16:26

ShauryaT wrote:Do not think even Nehru can object to the above. I am not against the targeting of Islam, in fact I claim that we already do, by refuting the two nation theory. To what degree one wants to take this opposition to the two nation theory and make it specifically about Islam and its tenets is a matter of debate. They already envy us - at every level. They resent our success in the region. They resent that we are a single united nation. They resent that they are powerless to do any major harm to us. They resent that such a large body of muslims have been able to live as moderates under our polity and it is this polity that has moderated the muslims even further, making a mockery of rule 5 of their immutable religious law.

By making Islam as the prime target, we did be playing their game and they will say - see - I told you so, these Hindu bigots are anti Islam and no wonder muslims cannot live with them and the two nation theory succeeds. I will repeat again and end here, do everything to destroy the two nation theory.


It is a slippery slope. I think we are looking at ROP followers behavior when then are in minority and making certain extrapolation on ROP which are highly inaccurate. We need to understand that when we say we refute two nation theory and muslims are able to live as moderates ... these arguments have been made by congress communists and host of pesec regional parties for over 60 years still we have all the problems from kashmir to jihad to isis volunteers to simi around us. Most muslims which include educated middle class who have made maximum use of government subsidies in education, ration, transport etc are still dreaming of ummah and out populating the kafirs. What we hear from our friends and co workers is what Fair didi aptly described as "social desirability bias"

The biggest challenge to the problem is ROPers cannot take those violent tennets head on. If some fundoo confronts the co called moderate on these verses they cannot duck and have to agree with these verses.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/anil- ... 141028.htm

This article from Col Athale also makes an interesting point which I think is the crux of the problem

No amount of economic measures or prosperity in Kashmir will make any dent in the situation. An average Kashmiri is an intelligent person and perfectly understands the Pakistani game and if a push comes to shove, is unlikely to prefer Pakistan over India. But the Pakistanis and their local sympathisers have made clever use of religious symbols and slogans to force religious minded Kashmiris to support them.

Where India has failed is to counter this ideological posturing by the separatists. Under India's Constitution there is no bar on any one following the Sharia. And pray what is the connection between god and independence?


The minute you dangle religious symbols or islam khatre mein slogan the lemming mentality kicks in. There is no point beating around the bush the philosophy needs to be taken head on. I think Aussies have got it right with the new proposed law on burkha.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Brad Goodman » 30 Oct 2014 17:07

Radicalised guards

A MONTH ago, Mohammed Yousuf, a prison guard at Rawalpindi’s Adiyala Jail, shot and injured the elderly Mohammad Asghar, a blasphemy convict with a history of mental illness.

The internal inquiry into the shooting has brought to light findings that are deeply worrying. It seems that Mr Yousuf spent a little over a fortnight guarding Mumtaz Qadri, the self-confessed killer of Punjab governor Salmaan Taseer. Within this brief span, Qadri succeeded in indoctrinating the guard with his extremist views on Islam.


Significance of this post. Prison guard means least SSC or undergraduate. So can read and write and has developed basic ability to reason. If he has sarkari job means he has least 1 wife and 3 kids (plus another 3-4 siblings and 2-4 parents that are dependent on him). If it only takes 15 days to turn a person who is reasonably educated and has all middle class aspirations to life to turn into criminal then there is something we are missing in our analysis

If you think this was one off case
Indeed, his powers of persuasion appear to have been such that two other prison guards were similarly radicalised and told to track down other blasphemy convicts jailed there, presumably with the intention of harming them.


This also explains why the google engineer in hyderabad or those engineering students in mumbai decided to sneak into iraq.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby sudarshan » 30 Oct 2014 17:37

Swami Vivekananda said it best. He said (to paraphrase): An education is not something you receive in schools or colleges. An education is when a person takes an idea, any idea, ponders it from all aspects, and eventually makes it his/her own, to the extent that (s)he models his/her whole life on it.

The significance of this simple statement cannot be underestimated. Muslims receive a very strong education at a very young age, albeit in a negative sense. They imbibe the idea of Islamic superiority, "Islam khatre mein hei," we must do our bit to help Islam - all of that good stuff - to such an extent, that the idea becomes their own, that they model their entire lives on it. Schools and colleges are powerless to reverse this education. So too is economic upliftment. We are barking up the wrong tree, if we think we can provide any "education" from schools or colleges or technical institutes to counter this real, life-time, practical education which is imparted at a tender age.

The simple and horrifying fact is - the so-called uneducated masses of Pakistan or Bangladesh, are much more educated than most Hindus ever will be. Is reeducation possible? Reeducation is such a bad word anyway. But it may be the only way out.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby kapilrdave » 30 Oct 2014 19:24

Atish wrote:Shiv,

How can anybody blame Islam? Political leaders cannot do it for obvious reasons. Academics cant do it. Regular civilians cannot do it. Apart from the social consequences, who will fulfill the security requirements of questioning Islam. This option is off the table except on small scale like the BRF. Its a weapon that cannot be used, however necessary or useful it might be.

Atish.

Just start showing the news around the world in true/undiluted form. People are intelligent enough to understand who is doing what and why.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby kapilrdave » 30 Oct 2014 19:28

shiv wrote:
Karan Dixit wrote:It seems like Motorm Fair has gotten this jirga all excited.

Not the mohterma herself - just the idiot crowd whom she addressed in Mumbai. The whole conversation started with a questioner saying that being against Pakistan is being against Muslims.

The number of Indians (psecs) who believe this is astounding, and I have constantly tried to wrestle with why this is so. Why would anyone think that Indians opposed to Pakistanis are actually against Muslims? We never accuse America of being against Muslims despite its attacking a series of Islamic countries.

Why are so many Indians convinced that being against Pakistan is the same as being against Muslims?

I can write a long post explaining my thoughts on this, but let me throw the question open for others to say what they think.

Logics don't count in this territory. If maulvi says India is against islam, it IS against islam. As simple as that. This is true for the muslims across the world.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2014 20:10

kapilrdave wrote:
shiv wrote:Not the mohterma herself - just the idiot crowd whom she addressed in Mumbai. The whole conversation started with a questioner saying that being against Pakistan is being against Muslims.

The number of Indians (psecs) who believe this is astounding, and I have constantly tried to wrestle with why this is so. Why would anyone think that Indians opposed to Pakistanis are actually against Muslims? We never accuse America of being against Muslims despite its attacking a series of Islamic countries.

Why are so many Indians convinced that being against Pakistan is the same as being against Muslims?

I can write a long post explaining my thoughts on this, but let me throw the question open for others to say what they think.

Logics don't count in this territory. If maulvi says India is against islam, it IS against islam. As simple as that. This is true for the muslims across the world.


I am sure that "believe your mulla or else" is a factor. But that does not explain why non Muslims in India (usually Khangress-psecs automatically say that anything that is hurtful to Pakistanis is hurtful to Indian Muslims as well.

If you look carefully at this, you see that these people actually consider Indian Muslims as Pakistanis at heart. They don't realize it - it is a subconscious bias. They believe the two nation theory and believe that Muslims are one nation and non Muslims are another nation. And Pakistan is a nation for Muslims, so they think Indian Muslims automatically yearn for Pakistan. That is why they worry that when anything is said that may hurt Pakistanis, Indian Muslims will get upset and our nation will fall apart.

As if to increase the anxiety of our psecs, Pakistanis have positioned themselves as protectors of the honour and safety of Indian Muslims. So when Pakistanis object to something in India, it is taken seriously by this psec crowd because Indian Muslims, they believe are internalizing Pakistani statements and that "we must be very careful about what we say and do".

India's secularists are the biggest (inadvertent and subconscious) supporters of the two nation theory and the largest group of believers that Indian Muslims are Pakistanis at heart although they can never say it out loud. The thought expresses itself as worry that Indian Muslims will get angry when Pakistan's "Islamic actions" are criticized. That is why they constantly admonish and argue with anyone who even burps and accidentally produces a sound that can be interpreted as anti-Muslim and dubs them as Hindu right wing extremists.

Indians, apart from having low self esteem and contempt for their Hindu identity, also believe that they are guilty of hating Muslims and must now be very careful and tippy-toe around anything that Indian Muslims do - like joining Al Qaeda or ISIS and pretend that this is not an Islamic issue - it is simply misguided youth who have been wronged by rightwingers.

This is what 65 years of Congress pseudosecularism has done to our minds.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Abhijit » 30 Oct 2014 20:18

Shiv saar, I don't know if this is one of your pisko experiments :)
On one hand, you say that it IS a flight against Islam since Pakistan = Islam. Then when Indian non-Muslims automatically equate the two and consider being anti-Pakistani as being anti-Muslim (as per your assertion above) you seem to be surprised? Is there something that I didn't understand or characterize erroneously?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Oct 2014 20:21

There is a clear line between appeasement and demagoguery. It is the line the state ought to steer on.

Indian democracy has to respect minority views but cannot overlook the danger from spreading Wahabbi values and ideas redolent of desert Islam displacing the syncretic and moderate Sufi Islam rooted in the local environs, and the resulting virulence and violence has to be stopped at all cost. Unless it has a death wish, the Indian state cannot avoid the hard option of intrusive and intensive-extensive policing of potential hotbeds of Islamic extremism in the country, scrutinising financial flows and Internet and other electronic communications traffic, installing its agents in SIMI and similar organisations, and apprehending, detaining and dissuading troublemakers attracted to radical causes. India cannot risk taking things lightly as is its habit. For strong counter-terrorism efforts to be strangled by legalism and procedure is to mock the peril creeping up on the country.


Shiv ji: This one too, from your favorite analyst! :)

Home-grown Islamic Terrorism

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2014 20:39

Abhijit wrote:Shiv saar, I don't know if this is one of your pisko experiments :)
On one hand, you say that it IS a flight against Islam since Pakistan = Islam. Then when Indian non-Muslims automatically equate the two and consider being anti-Pakistani as being anti-Muslim (as per your assertion above) you seem to be surprised? Is there something that I didn't understand or characterize erroneously?


Nothing to be surprised.

Indians Muslims by and large do not see themselves as Pakistani or feel hurt when Pakistani Islamic actions are criticized. But don't take my word for it - everyone is free to judge for himself. I am simply stating a personal observation, right or wrong.

Having said that, there is a small subset of Indian Muslims who are Islamists. They may not necessarily like Pakistan, but they put Islamist causes ahead of national interests. These people must be openly questioned about their beliefs and they must be openly told that if it comes to a toss up between Indian national interests and an Islamic belief, the former will be made to trump the latter.

The objection that has been placed against this assertion is as follows. "It is in India's interests to be inclusive of Indian Muslims and take their concerns seriously because we must be secular". This is the weak link that Pakistan and some Islamist Muslims in India exploit. They say that if an action XYZ is taken, it is against Islam, and therefore against Muslims and therefore not in the national interest.

This is where common sense is required. Having Indians killed in the name of Islam or for the purpose of "jihad". or having people plot and build bombs to terrorize or undermine India is not in the Indian national interest. Even if violent jihad and opposition to kafirs is mandatory in Islam, it cannot be allowed to be practised in India. Even if sharia is essential for Muslims, it cannot be applied as a general law in India and Indians will be free to stand against some tenets of sharia. I think most Indian Muslims realize and accept this gracefully. Those that don't still simply have to accept this. Period.

Here again, Pakistan has entered into this debate. Pakistanis say "Muslims are not allowed to live like Muslims in India. For example sharia cannot be implemented, which Muslims dearly want. And jihad against kafirs is an Islamic duty - which Indian Muslims are not allowed to do. Therefore Indian Muslims are persecuted". And some of our secularists (and some Indian Muslims) believe this shit.

But the fact is that being an Indian citizen imposes certain conditions on everyone. Those conditions have to be met. One of the conditions is that violent jihad against non Muslims by Muslims is not allowed in India. This is not persecution. Those are our laws. And everyone had better follow them. Why the angst or embarrassment or fear of saying these things out loud. They are facts. Everyone had better accept them. If anyone calls this a "fight against Islam" it is a fight alright and if Islam happens to promote things that are unlawful in India, that Islamic practice will be opposed or banned. Pakistan and some Islamists will definitely term this a fight against Islam but there is nothing to be apologetic about. If something Islamic is unlawful it is unlawful and we cannot let secular sentiment make us wishy washy about saying so.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Oct 2014 20:57

shiv wrote:Indians Muslims by and large do not see themselves as Pakistani or feel hurt when Pakistani Islamic actions are criticized. But don't take my word for it - everyone is free to judge for himself. I am simply stating a personal observation, right or wrong.

Having said that, there is a small subset of Indian Muslims who are Islamists.
There is another corollary that needs to be said. There is a body of Hindu opinion that doubts the "loyalty" of Indian muslims. They seek to administer loyalty tests to this muslim population and use this population as a guinea pig to drive their own political interests using sectarian and communal tactics. They use the objectionable tenets of Islam to isolate and demonize ANY demand from Indian muslims. They use the "immutability" claims of Islam to drive a wedge between communities and seek to harm the unity and integration of India and Indians.

Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2014 21:01

ShauryaT wrote:There is a clear line between appeasement and demagoguery. It is the line the state ought to steer on.

Indian democracy has to respect minority views but cannot overlook the danger from spreading Wahabbi values and ideas redolent of desert Islam displacing the syncretic and moderate Sufi Islam rooted in the local environs, and the resulting virulence and violence has to be stopped at all cost. Unless it has a death wish, the Indian state cannot avoid the hard option of intrusive and intensive-extensive policing of potential hotbeds of Islamic extremism in the country, scrutinising financial flows and Internet and other electronic communications traffic, installing its agents in SIMI and similar organisations, and apprehending, detaining and dissuading troublemakers attracted to radical causes. India cannot risk taking things lightly as is its habit. For strong counter-terrorism efforts to be strangled by legalism and procedure is to mock the peril creeping up on the country.


Shiv ji: This one too, from your favorite analyst! :)

Home-grown Islamic Terrorism


I agree with Karnad here.

Here is an interesting quote that is an exact example wof what I have been saying. Indian secularism fears that speaking up against something Islamic will make Indians Muslims angry. An here it is the IB, no less, showing this execrable pseudosecularist behavior. I tell ya - we are a nation full of mental cases. :roll:
The specific issue here is about FIRs being registered against extremist Islamist groups and its members to facilitate investigation into their nefarious activities. The NIA is for it, the IB supposedly fearing the effect of such a preventive measure on Muslim youth and the minority community, is against it,


This is why I think we need to come out and be open and say that certain things, even if they are "islamic" in character or origin, cannot be allowed. We need to have the courage of our convictions. But we have no confidence or self esteem and are a fearful nation. If someone terms such actions as "war against Islam" we must have the confidence to say "fuq you, it's still not allowed. Don't try to grievance us into silence"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby RSoami » 30 Oct 2014 21:25

There is another corollary that needs to be said. There is a body of Hindu opinion that doubts the "loyalty" of Indian muslims. They seek to administer loyalty tests to this muslim population and use this population as a guinea pig to drive their own political interests using sectarian and communal tactics. They use the objectionable tenets of Islam to isolate and demonize ANY demand from Indian muslims. They use the "immutability" claims of Islam to drive a wedge between communities and seek to harm the unity and integration of India and Indians.
Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.


Thats quite a sermon. I have heard that before.
In JNU. No kidding.
But thats enough enough for this dhaga.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2014 21:29

Let me ask a rhetorical question:

If Pakistan declares war against the Indian state on behalf of Kashmiris, would we fight a war against Pakistan or Kashmiris?

If naxalites declare war against the Indian state on behalf of "the people of India" would we fight the naxalites or the people of India.

If a bunch of Indian Muslims started a fight against the Indian state on behalf of "The Islamic Caliphate" or on behalf of the "ummah" would we fight against Indian Muslims, or against the Caliphate, or against the ummah?

Let me state my answer.

It is easy to fight Pakistan as it is a separate (abomi)nation. Obviously we don't fight Kashmiris just bacause Pakistan says that the war is for Kashmiris

With regard to naxalites, they are also people of India. So in a sense, we are fighting the people of India. But the state fights a subset of the people of India who are using violence and unconstitutional means. Even if naxalites say that violence is part of their constitution we ignore that and tell them where they can put their violent constitution. We don't say "We respect your violent constitution but we will fight you"

In the case of Indian Muslims fighting India on behalf of a caliphate or the ummah - the case is just like naxalites. We will be fighting a subset of Indian Muslims who are using violence and unconstitutional means. Are we fighting Islam? We are, after all, fighting Muslims. Do Muslims represent Islam? If Muslims do not represent islam who does? We could say that we are fighting a subset of misguided and violent Muslims. But if they, like naxalites, argue that violence is part of their religious constitution, would we or would we not be justified in telling them where they can stuff their constitution just like we tell naxalites that? Or do we say "We respect your violent constitution but we will fight you"

Why would we deal with Indian Islamists differently from naxalites?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28797 » 30 Oct 2014 21:42

Shivji, that question is a lot less confusing when you realize that the job of Indian security establishment is to protect the country's interests from both internal and external threats. Then what does it matter if it's kashmiris whining to break away an Indian territory, killing and burning Kashmiri Pandits along the way or porki pigs attacking India from across the border?

A threat is a threat and it should be dealt with such that it will never dare to attack India again.
Obviously I get the point that you and I are on the same page, but I am putting it out just in case someone here sympathizes more with "Indian born" threats than external threats.

Anything that threatens the territorial security and integrity of India should be dealt with properly.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SBajwa » 30 Oct 2014 21:58

by Partha
Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.


Well!! You as a non-Dhimmi should point out

1. All the tolerant verses in Quran are from when Mr. Mo use to live in Mecca (before he was kicked out and moved to Medina).
2. All the intolerance verses in Quran are from when Mr. Mo use to live in Medina and getting his army together to go fight and take revenge with the people of Mecca.
3. Then Arrah also told Mr. Mo that later verses (Intolerant one's) have more weight than the previous verses (tolerant one's).

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2014 22:04

RSoami wrote:
There is another corollary that needs to be said. There is a body of Hindu opinion that doubts the "loyalty" of Indian muslims. They seek to administer loyalty tests to this muslim population and use this population as a guinea pig to drive their own political interests using sectarian and communal tactics. They use the objectionable tenets of Islam to isolate and demonize ANY demand from Indian muslims. They use the "immutability" claims of Islam to drive a wedge between communities and seek to harm the unity and integration of India and Indians.
Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.


Thats quite a sermon. I have heard that before.
In JNU. No kidding.
But thats enough enough for this dhaga.


The same gent wanted to give away Siachen on a platter claiming deescalation and similar track-2 BS. Forget these folks, they are beyond all hope. They occupy some imaginary tower of superior morality which all others must kowtow otherwise they will be classified as hindu bigots. Meanwhile, they dont have the guts to state all this to TSP or make a difference there.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Oct 2014 22:11

Brad Goodman wrote:The minute you dangle religious symbols or islam khatre mein slogan the lemming mentality kicks in. There is no point beating around the bush the philosophy needs to be taken head on. I think Aussies have got it right with the new proposed law on burkha.


Did you see C.C. Fair's talking about the Bachelor's and Master's level educated workforce that she assembled to conduct a survey in Pakistan in 2013? She said don't assume they know things the way you do. When asked about the Taliban, one woman answered - "Hamid Karzai's tanzim".

Persistent lemming mentality requires control over information - we have to understand how in a society supposedly with internet & social media and lots of newspapers and TV, information is nevertheless controlled or minds are conditioned to shun/avoid information that contradicts the collective.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Oct 2014 22:15

shiv wrote:Let me ask a rhetorical question:
In the case of Indian Muslims fighting India on behalf of a caliphate or the ummah - the case is just like naxalites. We will be fighting a subset of Indian Muslims who are using violence and unconstitutional means. Are we fighting Islam? We are, after all, fighting Muslims. Do Muslims represent Islam? If Muslims do not represent islam who does? We could say that we are fighting a subset of misguided and violent Muslims. But if they, like naxalites, argue that violence is part of their religious constitution, would we or would we not be justified in telling them where they can stuff their constitution just like we tell naxalites that? Or do we say "We respect your violent constitution but we will fight you"

Why would we deal with Indian Islamists differently from naxalites?


Well, we might respect Marx or even Mao. :)

Seriously, why are we conceding to this rhetorical subset of violent Indian Muslims that they represent Islam? Just because they say so? We can certainly tell this group where to stuff their religious constitution, and that we don't respect it. We don't have to take a position that what they have **is** Islam (or **is not** Islam). The basis for fighting them is that they are violent and unconstitutional.

PS: Only three countries recognized the Taliban government (1992-2001) of Afghanistan - Pakistan, UAE, Saudi Arabia - even though the Taliban were in effective control (maybe even more so than Pakistan's kabilas) of most of Afghan territory. They were only missing the tiny sliver of territory the Northern Alliance held. So e.g., the US went to war with a government that it did not recognize. It is analogous to this kind of non-granting of recognition of the Islam of violent groups of Muslims that I mean. There is no good reason to grant it; it is a strategic mistake to grant it.

PPS: To paraphrase Mrs IG's famous reply to Ted Koppell some American interviewer (I think) when asked "are you for or against the US?" she said "I'm for India". Same thing, "are you for or against Islam?" -- "I'm for India".
Last edited by A_Gupta on 30 Oct 2014 23:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Atish » 30 Oct 2014 22:20

Shiv,

I see only 2 ways of what you suggest happening. The Indian "intelligentsia" have no self confidence or originality.

1. If the Reform Islam discourse starts well and truly in the West and gains some serious traction then yes maybe its possible.

2. There is one more way, Iranian regime collapses, then the Shias can start an Islamic Renaissance.

Option (1) will have traction if serious issues like ISIS or terrorist attacks proliferate. (2) can happen outta the blue, suddenly anyday, but then maybe not for decades - its a low probability random memoryless event.

Cheers.

Atish.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Prem » 30 Oct 2014 22:41

NEW TNT

Forget about DJinBhootZootian TNt lets think of TNT= Three Natural Tenets of India. These are Dharma, Karma & Bhumi All three of these were taken over by Nehruvian Idiocentric Lafandars, Process of taking the control back now have started. Redefining & Restructuring being the natural outcome, every segment of society will take its own place with natural rights, duties and place per deeds, qualification in relation with Holy TNT as symbol of Soil and Nation. Commotion for next 5 years, settling down in another five years and then Smooth ride to rise and demise of all roton rats, bats & hacks sucking Indian blood.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Prem » 30 Oct 2014 23:41

Delhi’s Shahi Imam invites Nawaz, shuns Modi for son’s anointment :roll:
Rattled Retard Rats Running
( BC think he is Imp 2 be graced by PM)
NEW DELHI: Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the Shahi Imam of Delhi’s Jama Masjid, on Thursday invited Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif for his son’s appointment as the next chief cleric, but excluded Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi from the guest list, the Times of India reported.Bukhari did however invite four Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leaders, including two ministers."We have invited the prime minister of Pakistan as we have had relations with him since my father's time, unlike with Modi, whom we have not invited," the paper reported Bukhari as saying."Modi has not done anything for Indian Muslims even after coming to power. Indian Muslims have not forgiven him for the 2002 Gujarat riots," Bukhari said, referring to the 2002 riots in Gujarat in which at least 1,000 Muslims were killed."Modi has not even apologised (for the riots) and reached out to the Muslims," he said."We have also invited Congress president Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi along with Vice President Hamid Ansari," said Bukhari.The anointment of Bukhari’s son, 19-year-old Shaban,is expected to take place on November 22, while guests have been invited for a dinner on November 29.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Oct 2014 00:04

^^^Bukri did NaMo a favor. He would not have wanted to attend and the secular English language media would have manufactured outrage at the slight.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby schinnas » 31 Oct 2014 01:28

Jhujar wrote:Delhi’s Shahi Imam invites Nawaz, shuns Modi for son’s anointment


Increasingly muslims in India choose to identify themselves as muslims first and slowly ignoring other identities of language, ethnicity or nationality. Previously even those that chose to primarily identify themselves as muslims retained their ethnic, linguistic or nationalistic identity as secondary. But now the whole secondary identification is slowly lost.

Shahi imam inviting Pak PM is primarily because of religion and not due to his personal relationships. It is yet another clear indication of muslims increasingly sticking to religion as their primary and in some cases only identity.

Recently I interacted with a muslim who was obviously a Tamil, but when I asked him if he is a Tamil, he replied - Sir, I am a muslim but I speak Tamil and came from that state!. I wonder if they are taught that way in Madarasas and mosques to rally behind a single identity and explicitly disown other cultural identities.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Oct 2014 02:27

^^^ Shahi Imam is making a political statement about Modi. That is why he is inviting other BJP leaders but not Modi.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Amber G. » 31 Oct 2014 02:57

What happened to this... was that warrant ever executed?
Warrant for Maulana Syed Ahmed Bukhari, cops ordered to execute it

(Story from Indian Express - New Delhi, Wed Jul 04 2012)
A Delhi court has issued a non-bailable warrant (NBW) against Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid, Maulana Syed Ahmed Bukhari, in connection with a criminal case and directed police to arrest and produce him in court.

Slamming the Delhi Police for failing to execute an earlier warrant against him, Metropolitan Magistrate Rajinder Singh issued a fresh NBW against Bukhari. Despite a warrant, the Shahi Imam remained absent and brought court proceedings in the matter to a halt, he said.
<snip>

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Amber G. » 31 Oct 2014 03:19

Jhujar wrote:Delhi’s Shahi Imam invites Nawaz, shuns Modi for son’s anointment :roll:
Rattled Retard Rats Running


Meanwhile:
Pak businessmen to join Modi's reception in Australia 8)

"We are going to attend Modi's community reception...." PACB president Iftikhar Rana told TOI from Australia.

...
PACB senior vice president Kashif Amjad said he would be attending the reception. "We don't know if we will get an opportunity to interact with the Indian Prime Minister. But we will try to meet a senior Indian official and urge that business among the three countries should increase,"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Oct 2014 03:31

When "India should not waste money sending missions to Mars when it has poverty blah blah" comes from a Pakistani, remind them: Just in the few years, Pakistan ordered 75 locomotives from China, in a contract worth $100 million. 32 of the locomotives died soon after arrival, 69 were sub-standard and quickly taken out of service. China did not honor the warranties on the locomotives. Undeterred Pakistan Railways went ahead an ordered another 75 locomotives from the same Chinese company. Pakistan spent $100 million or more on scrap metal; India spent $74 million on a successful mission to Mars. Who should be more concerned about the waste of money?"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Oct 2014 03:41

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Shahi Imam is making a political statement about Modi. That is why he is inviting other BJP leaders but not Modi.


So now we see what invited BJP leaders do. Do the attend w/o NaMo being invited, get photographed wearing skull caps?

Or, do they just not show up?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby RajeshA » 31 Oct 2014 03:56

shiv wrote:This is why I think we need to come out and be open and say that certain things, even if they are "islamic" in character or origin, cannot be allowed. We need to have the courage of our convictions. But we have no confidence or self esteem and are a fearful nation. If someone terms such actions as "war against Islam" we must have the confidence to say "fuq you, it's still not allowed. Don't try to grievance us into silence"


Basically Islam is a political ideology with a coating of faith. If one is open about it and has not mortgaged one's gonads to secularitis, then upon a little analysis it becomes clear.

However this insight does not solve the problem of Islam within India, even if we can bust all the backsides of any foreign Islamics. For a solution, we have to present a very simple challenge to followers of Islam in India. If one thinks that Islam is a different Qaum than the Hindus, then one basically believes in Pakistaniyat and poses a threat to Indian unity. If one thinks that Islam is simply a Deen with rituals and worship, then there is no issue with them. So one makes a clear division between which Islam is welcome and which Islam is unwelcome.

As long as Indian Muslims of the Deenist Sect abide by Law and hopefully by Uniform Civil Code in the future, all iz wel. It doesn't matter how many burqas they wear or how red their beards are!

But Indian State should have full power to root out all Islamic Qaumist tendencies from Indian soil, because that has already led to a Partition. And it should be for the State to decide which messages are Qaumi, and which messages are Deeni, and thus which messages are proscribed and which messages need to be emphasized. And the Indian State should be willing to conduct constant surveillance into this matter.

Now this is simply a working model which the jirga can consider, but it does solve the "freedom of religion" conundrum. At the moment, the Indian State does not participate at all in setting the parameters of ideological freedom, so that separatist tendencies can be weeded out.


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 04:20

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote:Indians Muslims by and large do not see themselves as Pakistani or feel hurt when Pakistani Islamic actions are criticized. But don't take my word for it - everyone is free to judge for himself. I am simply stating a personal observation, right or wrong.

Having said that, there is a small subset of Indian Muslims who are Islamists.
There is another corollary that needs to be said. There is a body of Hindu opinion that doubts the "loyalty" of Indian muslims. They seek to administer loyalty tests to this muslim population and use this population as a guinea pig to drive their own political interests using sectarian and communal tactics. They use the objectionable tenets of Islam to isolate and demonize ANY demand from Indian muslims. They use the "immutability" claims of Islam to drive a wedge between communities and seek to harm the unity and integration of India and Indians.

Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.

Nail meets head!!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Oct 2014 04:21


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby RajeshA » 31 Oct 2014 04:33

ShauryaT wrote:Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.


Old wine in new bottle! It's like saying both ISIS and VHP should have no place in our polity! Or both Anders Breivik and xyz ShauryaT should have no place in our polity! Such comparisons are meaningless, and this propensity to take the higher moral middle ground by forcing one party to the extreme through a comparison with an obviously extremist party has been the regular fare of pseudo-seculars and Pakistani "liberals" from a long time. At some point one has to butt in and say it is a ghissa-pitta tactic with an ever decreasing effectiveness.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 04:45

OT alert:
I don't think we can compare ISIS to VHP/BD. But surely elements who bash up couples enjoying a walk on Valentine's Day have no place in a tolerant society.
Unfortunately pseudo-seculars have twisted secularism from something good to appeasement.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2014 06:56

A_Gupta wrote:
Seriously, why are we conceding to this rhetorical subset of violent Indian Muslims that they represent Islam? Just because they say so? We can certainly tell this group where to stuff their religious constitution, and that we don't respect it. We don't have to take a position that what they have **is** Islam (or **is not** Islam). The basis for fighting them is that they are violent and unconstitutional..


I think we have been though the types of dilemmas this situation throws up because it is never just the two parties - i.e the terrorists purporting to attack in the name of Islam and the Indian state - i.e government. The third party are the Indian people at large who observe he actions of the other two parties and bear the consequences

For example - from 1993 to 2009 we had regular terrorist attacks on Indian soil and every time the culprits were nailed they had names that are traditionally given in Muslim families and rarely used by non Muslims. It was never acknowledged by the government but widely accepted in pubic that bestial bomb blasts in markets and crowded places were being conducted by Muslims. In the course of time, when culprits were caught it emerged that they were people who had links with terrorist groups with obviously Islamic names like "Army of Mohammad" led by Islamic clerics from Pakistan. The connection between terrorism in India and Pakistan and Islam was patently clear to the Indian public.

When confronted by the media, the government would state Islam and Muslims could not be blamed for terrorism and that terror has no religion. So we had a situation in which the terrorists were openly and merrily using Islamic justification to murder Indians while the Indian government was unable to explain to the Indian public why Islam and Muslims were continuously involved. The acts were often carried out or supported by indoctrinated Indian Muslims.

The Indian government in effect was doing what you have said i.e.the government was not "conceding to this rhetorical subset of violent Indian Muslims that they represent Islam". But for the Indian public this was the most fake and insincere way of handling the issue. In fact the Islamists had made a point and a very clever one at that and I do think we need to concede that the Islamists showed a great deal of craftiness in putting the Indian government in a "heads we win, tails you lose" situation. The idea of the Islamists was to create and sustain an Islamic jihad, an Islamic holy war against India, using Indian Muslims to create mayhem in India. In order to do that they put the Indian government in a spot. If the India government admitted that Islam was being used to start a holy war, the government would be nailed as being "communal". For this reason the government did not do that - but the Indian public very quickly figured out that it was Muslims fighting India in the name of Islam and "secularism" was forcing the Indian government into denial.

What Pakistan and Islamists have done is to show up the hollowness of the Indian model of secularism - or at the very least they have taught Indian governments what secularism means and what it does not mean.

It makes no sense whatsoever to continue in denial that a group of Muslims from multiple countries (probably led by Pakistan) are engaged in a holy Islamic war against countries deemed to be non Islamic. These fake secularist ideals do nothing to convince Islamists that they must live in peace with others because they do not want peace with others. That does not mean that all Muslims are guilty. But the fact that it is Muslims who fight jihad and jihad is: 1. An Islamic concept and 2. being waged against us should not be denied. No one is fooled by denials or re-framing the terminology.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Oct 2014 07:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2014 07:18

ShauryaT wrote:Both the pseudo Sec/Islamists and the Hindu bigot should have no place in our polity.


I think that we all find it easy to accept that a large number of innocent Muslims are being clubbed under the heading "extremist" when we point out that Muslims and terrorism in India have had a connection over the last 2 decades

How difficult would it be to acknowledge that an even larger number of innocent Hindus are being dubbed bigots when they point out that there has been a connection between Muslims, Islam and terrorism in India. It is patently obvious from media reports and the revelations of the last 5-6 years.

No one must be given and unfair label, but facts need to be told.

The facts are that Islam, Muslims and terrorism in India have had a link. The link is a bit like open defecation and Hindus have a link. 80% of Indians are Hindus, ergo 80% of open defecators are likely to be Hindus. In fact statistics show that the percentage of Muslim open defecators is less than that of Hindus Both facts are not blaming the entire body of people but recording something that we need to acknowledge.

By demanding that all Muslims in India should stop open defecation, the problem will not be addressed.

Similarly by demanding that Hindu terrorists should stop their dastardly acts, we do not gain much because the vast majority of terrorist acts with mass casualties have been conducted by Muslims with an Islamic justification,.

We do not want Hindus or Muslims to commit terrorist acts. But unless we can show that we know how and where a problem arises we are only buggering about and making token statements to appease sentiment. That is what I am up in arms against.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby sadhana » 31 Oct 2014 07:53

I think we should accept another thing about Islam. It doesn't matter how reformed the Muslims and Islam of the rest of the world are, there will always be a Pakistani Islam which will be directed against Indians and the Indian state.

Pakistan is suffering the effects of this in its own way : it does not matter how moderate, liberal or reformed their interpretations of Islam are, there will always be a Pakistani Islam which will be directed against Pakistan and the Pakistani state.

The Jinn is on their backs and that Jinn and a more general Pak Jinn are together on our backs.

No point in grappling with the subsections of Islam and Muslims who are not Jinns on our backs but are part of us, suffering in the same way as us.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby CRamS » 31 Oct 2014 09:18

DocJi, quoting from one of you posts


The number of Indians (psecs) who believe this is astounding, and I have constantly tried to wrestle with why this is so. Why would anyone think that Indians opposed to Pakistanis are actually against Muslims? We never accuse America of being against Muslims despite its attacking a series of Is1lamic countries.



On US, of course we do. Matter of fact, US is patently anti-Muslim. And its not just attacking Muslim countries at will. Its also the way Muslims are viewed at by US media, Hollywood etc. Anchors in US openly demonize Muslims with no embarrassment. And finally, not to mention US's slavish support to Israel even as the latter bludgeons Palestinians into submission and treats them like dogs.

Comparing US and India, remember the key differences:

1. As a supreme super power, US, I mean average joe-six-packs and their girlfriends could give a rat's behind on being criticized for being anti-Muslim. They will cite Muslims extremism and argue that what they are doing is fighting evil.

2. Once again, as a supreme super power, US can bring to bear ever lever of power at its disposal. So it can buy off one Muslim country against another through economic goodies (Egypt for example), or have some Muslim countries on its side by offering to protect their rear end from the more faithful (Arab tin pots for example).

3. While Muslims seethe with anger at US, there is not a damn they can do to US, and moreover, they love the goodies US has to offer. Every TSPian will love to migrate to US even as they shout: death to America

Bottom line: US is anti-Muslim, and Muslims simply don't have the power and wherewithal to take revenge or make an impact on US (I know people will say 9/11. Events like 9/11 and ISIS be-headings are outliers. US has caused infinitly more damage to Muslims than vice versa).

Coming to India on the other hand, the tag that India is anti-Muslim (and I am including TSP in this definition of Muslims) sticks because unlike US, India does not enjoy overwhelming power over Muslims. Take Kashmir for example. No matter what India does there by helping the Kashmiri Muslims, the label that India is anti-Muslims sticks. And TSP ensures that this sentiment is kept alive.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby habal » 31 Oct 2014 09:41

the weakest link in Islam is women, and those mullahs know it. If women are empowered then Islam gets weakened, because the main issues for women are always diametrically opposite to Islamist ideology. Political Islam in current context, (let's forget context in 16th century) is about empowering those who can reinforce status of Islam as a death cult.

But however political Islam summersaults, they still cannot get past the women question and that resulted in the burqa. The burqa in reality means that women need not speak and need not be heard. They also need not be seen. So the men will manage political Islam and conclude it to it's desired end. In a strong state, empowering women in every respect means weakening political Islam. In an Islamic state or a weak state, empowering women may not have results because political Islam can overcome that hurdle.

Islam depends on a lot of crutches to walk, just because it is not easily visible does not mean that it does not exist.

You can see countries such as Australia, US, UK, EU use these levers against Islam very cleverly. They always put muslim women on a pedestal as if they really care about them. The main objective behind western entities bigging muslim women (case in point Malala) is mainly to weaken political Islam in their sphere of influence.

Continuing with these thoughts maybe Malala + Satyarthi is about weakening political Islam in west and burdening the non-muslims with derogatary terms like child slavery. This also shows that the problem of political Islam has been created in part by the west since they feel compelled to solve a problem that they created.


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