Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014

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Kashi
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Kashi » 29 Oct 2014 06:50

CRamS wrote:I agree, but in accomplishing what she did lets also remember that Fair didi, while smart, sharp, diligent etc; all have the time, $s, resources, gora skin with backing of super power that has a huge currency in places like India & TSP etc. You think anybody in India writing the kind of stuff she has in India will garner any attention, let alone respect? He/she will be dismissed as a Hindu fascist. Heck, as Arun Jaitly said, unlike UPA which had only a shield (questionable one at that), BJP has both a sword and a shield, Modi is already being accused of leading "South Asia" to nuclear Armageddon.


Actually for muppets like the one in the video it does not matter if the unpalatable message comes from within or beyond, as was clear that he refused to see the the facts and continued to claim that Pakis were nice and hospitable and that such facts could stir up communal tensions. They'll never change and continue to shout down voices of reason or dissent. Folks like Thappad, Burkha, Turdesai, Pagalika, VM and others will continue to propagate the views of the desi Nayyar and Aiyyar over the phoren Fair.

If you didn't notice, people have been freely expressing these sentiments with increasing frequency in media, blogs and social media in recent times. The narrative has been finding greater acceptance amongst the populace, one only needs to see the comments section of WWKitis infested articles to know that people are not willing to swallow BS.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2014 06:52

These coming 10 yrs of Modi/BJP rule in India is going to make Pakistan gasp each day for its survival.
Its haramigiri will be punished. GOI will not give its Jernails any fig leaf to escape their haramigiri.

Their fauj losing on the battle front, fauj losing face will dismember pakistan now.
This is the new existential threat to them.
What if two brahmos land on Pindi hain? What will the fauj do? It will be soosai if they do something, soosai if they don't do anything.
If they don't let the yahoos carry out terrorist attacks on India, there will be accusations of 'kashmiris have been abandoned' and the yahoos will try to wage jihad on Isloo.
Moreover if they sit tight, they are afraid, that Doval and co will relentlessly 'retire' their little snakes that they've so fondly nurtured.

They find themselves in a very tight bind, just because there is a no nonsense GOI.
Thus the angst.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2014 06:57

Kashi, CramS
I have a different take on why some of these people take this unusual line.
All these people in the media are motivated by money. There is money given to them to take that line - plain and simple.
Weather it is the Pakistanis directly via the track II junkets, or western/ european embassies giving them lifafas to do so.

All these netas, news anchors, news men are motivated by money. Someone pays them off.
In MS Aiyar's case it may be a combination of money, blackmail from a honeytrap, and his elitist leftwinging ness that is to play.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SSridhar » 29 Oct 2014 07:06

Gagan, I agree. Money and the lure of being invited to yet another round of Track-II meet in Bangkok, or Dubai or Kathmandu or Colombo as Ms. C. Fair bluntly said. If they do not appear to be neutral or if they are not seen as finding fault with their own country, with the facts put out by analysts from their own country or their own government, they may lose the opportunity of being invited to yet another junket.

The Suhasisni Haider op-ed in The Hindu a couple of days back, for example, falls into that category. That is onr reason, among a few others, why the equal-equal brigade is vociferous in our country. Unfortunately, it is only in our country that these people have to spout this equal-equal nonsense. In Pakistan, they do not have to because they are all in the same mould and some of them will have to be invited anyway otherwise there would be no representation from Pakistan and there won't be any Track II at all.

There are some like the cantankerous Mani Shankar Aiyyar who may have entirely different reasons.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Kashi » 29 Oct 2014 07:14

Gagan wrote:Kashi, CramS
I have a different take on why some of these people take this unusual line.
All these people in the media are motivated by money. There is money given to them to take that line - plain and simple.
Weather it is the Pakistanis directly via the track II junkets, or western/ european embassies giving them lifafas to do so.

All these netas, news anchors, news men are motivated by money. Someone pays them off.
In MS Aiyar's case it may be a combination of money, blackmail from a honeytrap, and his elitist leftwinging ness that is to play.


I agree with what you say. My point is that a combination of factors, be it ingrained belief, stupidity, immorality, greed or someone having their bollocks in a vice-like grip will never allow these folks to either discard or stop propagating their jaundiced viewpoint. To them, it doesn't matter if the person who points out the error of their ways is an Indian or a Fair-skinned phorener.

We have seen the so-called journalists Thappad and Peekdaan aggressively question Tony Abbot of Australia and a British minister, when they had something favourable to say about NaMo and when they pointed out that NaMo had been cleared by the justice system in India. Peekdaan even went on to say that in India we have a democracy and we have the right to question the supreme court judgments. We saw Burkha asking Tulsi Gabbard on how long she planned to stay a Hindu.

Like the proverbial leopard, these folks will never change their spots. They'll simply move on to engage another who shares their parochial worldview- desi or phorener. Since there are plenty of them around, there's no fear of the gravy train getting derailed for them.

They are useful idiots who serve many masters and as long as they continue to be relevant for anti-India forces, they'll be facilitated, felicitated, cultivated, wined and dined, showered with men/women and gold. Once they stop being relevant, they'll be discarded like a used condom and they know it, they are terrified of it and to convince their masters of their relevance, they'll only try and outdo themselves each time, which is why we see some of them getting more and more desperate and consequently more and more acerbic and irascible in their views in print and on screen.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2014 07:32

If these people do it once or twice, one can attribute it to misguidedness.
But if they are doing it after repeated terror attacks on India, killing of Indians, then surely the motivating factor is greed.
Someone pays them to write this tripe.
In a democracy, these guys have a platform to have their say.
We should post and chronicle what they say, but not get worked up with their bullshit. That is all paid for by outsiders anyway.
Though it can be an interesting reflection into what the other side is thinking about - each such farticle has a core message, that needs to be understood and its context understood.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Karan M » 29 Oct 2014 07:36

Its not money alone but mindset. A vast number of hindus are dhimmis. Brought up to be comfortable with certain "points of view" and collectively gasp if anything inconvenient is brought to the fore. They won't look at the reality (the genocide of Hindus in the region and why it occurred) head on. A full 200 years have gone into erecting the Macaulayite system to boot, to deracinate and divide folks and another 60 years of leftism added to it, to automatically ensure any view that counters the narrative is shouted down as brahminical, exploitative etc. So its going to take the work of decades to break this. Electing Modi & co is merely step 1.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Prem » 29 Oct 2014 07:47

Shrinivasan wrote:
pankajs wrote:...
Indian Policy makers are very aware of this... hence our focus on short range BM Prithvi, 290KM ranged Brahmos (land attack) as well as Prahaar. These coupled with Cold Start was terrifying for the Pakees, hence all this "Aman ki Tamasha" in the last decade which ironically has become India's "Lost Decade".

As owl 2-300 night Hunting Owls fly from the city of Jal-Andhaara to Qalandar land , the distance is covered in under 6 minutes. After that, pakistan makes history as the first Qabila to be thrown 720% in the dustbin of history, all melted,telted and smeltered.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2014 07:50

Pakistan has continuously presented India with a dilemma because it positioned itself as both a nation state and as a protector of Islam.

If India opposed Pakistan the nation state, it was claimed that India was opposed to Islam. And India could not afford to say that it was against Islam. Maybe it should have been, but it never was. This gave Pakistan the opportunity to play a game in two ways. If India had genuine reason to harbour a grudge against Pakistan the nation-state on some issue, Pakistani opposition to India would be stated in Islamic terms, which India was unable to counter. And as far as "nation state" issues were concerned. Pakistan built up solid allies in the US and China.

Ultimately, it is the nation-state structure of Pakistan that was not strong enough because it was concocted out of Islamic glue. Islam is not a glue, but hatred of India as a kafir state has been used to create a fascist unity among diverse Muslims in Pakistan to make an artificial Islamic glue. This offers India the same old dilemma. We gain nothing by opposing the Pakistani nation state because its actions against India are based on Islam which we were not supposed to question.

We gain nothing by opposing the weak nation state of Pakistan. If Islam is the weak binding glue - it is the glue we need to attack. By attacking Pakistan alone we are absolving the Islamic glue of all blame. But when we collect up and recall the way that Islamic glue has been utilized to conduct murders of Indians and Hindus, we have a genuine reason to criticize and call out Pakistan's Islamic glue. By attacking that glue we help Pakistan to split apart or force it to close ranks and fight.

We need to concentrate on every bit of evidence we have of Pakistan quoting Islam and using Islam to oppose India. It is easy to show how Islam has been used to perpetrate violence against India. Watch those 26-11 videos or read the history of the Hindu genocide in Bangladesh. Every time a Pakistani breathes the word "Islam" or "Muslims" it should be associated with violence and murder - to the extent that Pakistan can no longer use the Islam/Muslim cover to hide. If Islam is the glue for Pakistan, hit the glue. People need to be forced to prove that Islam is not violent by nature - by actions and not by rhetoric. If it is violent, violence needs to be answered with violence. If it is peaceful, peace will be offered. Pseudosecularism and acting as if criticizing Pakistan is criticizing Muslims and therefore Islam and therefore we need to shut the f. up is lunacy. Those days are gone.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Oct 2014 08:00

^^^ Having to constantly face polite - even good-humored - factual and reasoned words contradicting your belief is very wearing. If the words were rude, abusive or threatening, you can make yourself out to be a "martyr" in your own cause. One thing I strongly suspect is that many leftists and Islamist types thrive on "martyrdom" or feeling "persecuted" - this serves to validate them.

It is therefore important, in my opinion, to constantly reiterate the message without providing any pretext for someone to feel "martyred" or "persecuted". This requires a "message discipline". If message discipline is maintained, the only choices are then to either see one's wrongness or to shut one's ears - and neither leaves one feeling good.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2014 08:07


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2014 08:16

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Having to constantly face polite - even good-humored - factual and reasoned words contradicting your belief is very wearing. If the words were rude, abusive or threatening, you can make yourself out to be a "martyr" in your own cause. One thing I strongly suspect is that many leftists and Islamist types thrive on "martyrdom" or feeling "persecuted" - this serves to validate them.

It is therefore important, in my opinion, to constantly reiterate the message without providing any pretext for someone to feel "martyred" or "persecuted". This requires a "message discipline". If message discipline is maintained, the only choices are then to either see one's wrongness or to shut one's ears - and neither leaves one feeling good.


This is a very difficult problem that has actually been recognized by Islamists many centuries ago. And many centuries ago they developed the defence mechanisms to go down the path of "persecution" and "martyrdom" very early - even before anyone breathes a soft breath of objection. That is why it has lasted so long.

But I believe we are at a fairly unique phase of history in which information sharing among non Islamic people has grown along with credible proof that bestial Islamic violence is invariably accompanied by false accusations of persecution. If they falsely accuse others of persecution, and impose war, it would be silly to avoid the war saying "We are not trying to persecute you". The persecution is only an excuse. the real intent is war to spread Islam

In an ironic sense, Islam as practised in many parts of the world today is all about setting up conflict with non Muslims. Not accepting that as a conflict and shying away pretending that all will be well if one is secular does not stop the conflict or the false accusations of persecution.

I suggest imposing a counter dilemma for Islamists: "Islam is violent and we will fight unless it can be shown that Islam wants peace". This agrees with Islamists contention that others are against them and so be it. Shying away from this fact and pretending and protesting that no one is against Islam does not protect anyone from the onslaught of Islam and its followers' fake claims of persecution. Islamists, Pakistan included, have to genuinely desire peace in order not to be defeated. Or else they will get eliminated.

Is this religious conflict? Duh. It is a Eurocentric Western Universalist view that religious conflict got over after the Inter-Christian wars of Europe.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby partha » 29 Oct 2014 08:40

I agree that onus should be on so called moderate Muslims to take lead in fight against extremists of their religion. I have not seen a single moderate Muslim who has called for rejection of intolerant parts of Islamic scriptures or at least update them to fit the current times. All we get is boiler plate arguments from them. They are even trying to float the idea that ISIS is not Islamic. They just want non Muslims to accept that Islam is perfect and move on. Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28803 » 29 Oct 2014 08:48

To all the arguments about one baki is stronger than ten hindus, or hindus wetting their dhotis at the sight of paki nuclear bum, I always say that the pakis, and in general the muslims of the sub-continent, are actually a weaker race/society. Hindus survived the last thousand years, and are still here – our culture, society is still thriving but the weaker sections, which couldn’t stand up to the onslaught were forced to convert, under gunpoint. gazis, gaznavis, and abdalis raped and looted their ancestors, so when bakis says they are somehow better warriors than us all I tell them is we are still here, still believe and follow the same traditions and culture that our ancestors did. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for them. If their ancestors could be converted once, it could happen again, given the right circumstances in the sub-continent! :D :P

After that they will never talk with me about South Asia, no more! :(( :((
Last edited by member_28803 on 29 Oct 2014 08:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby partha » 29 Oct 2014 08:50

http://www.dawn.com/news/1141027/pakistan-us-ties-moving-to-trade-from-aid-us-envoy
Pakistan-US ties moving to trade from aid: US envoy


More like raid to aid, no?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28803 » 29 Oct 2014 08:52

Gagan wrote:


Is this bbc?

What stood out for me is the map, they show POK as part of west pakistan while J&K is nowhere on the map.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Oct 2014 09:03

Regarding Track II, could it be many in GCC and House of Saud back Pakistan getting Kashmir for Islamic reasons and Indian track II members toe the Pakistani line for Money from royality in Saudi and Qatar at the cost of India. They are Mercenaries of a different type?

Take a look at AL Jazzeeras coverage and you can't rule out the huge anti BJP feeling there and they have the money power to buy WKK's, India for them Syria, fighting Soviets in Afganistan etc.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Prem » 29 Oct 2014 09:04

Abb Terra kya Hogga paakiyya

London- British Prime Minister David Cameron has reiterated that the United Kingdom wanted deeper ties with India while also making it aptly clear that his government would never interfere in the highly vexed Kashmir issue.The Conservative Party leader was today quoted as saying to a TV news channel,“We are two great democracies that face many of the same challenges. We need more economic growth; we need more investment in trade. We both have to fight extremism and terrorism. These are shared challenges that Britain and India should face together."The British Prime Minister, who is seeking re-election in the 2015 polls, also sought to woo the vast Indian population living in UK by calling for greater ties between the two countries.Cameron indicated that Britain did not intend to intervene in the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan by saying, "It is the engagement between the two nations and that was for these countries to lead these debates on this issue and not for others to interfere
."

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Oct 2014 09:05

I think it showed ABC New York at the end.
Gautam

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2014 09:13

partha wrote:I agree that onus should be on so called moderate Muslims to take lead in fight against extremists of their religion. I have not seen a single moderate Muslim who has called for rejection of intolerant parts of Islamic scriptures or at least update them to fit the current times. All we get is boiler plate arguments from them. They are even trying to float the idea that ISIS is not Islamic. They just want non Muslims to accept that Islam is perfect and move on. Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.

It is not up to non Muslims to quote verses or paragraphs. Actions count. I don't give a flying fig if verse XYZ says blabla. As long as a person kills me or my kin in the name of Islam it is not just murder, it is premeditated murder promoted by Islam, screw the verses.

The excuse that all religions have bad people or all religions promote murder of someone else is a bad one. Just because crimes occur everywhere, it does not mean that crimes can be committed in the` name of Islam and then make Islam hide behind the idiotic excuse that everyone commits crimes.

If you are against me, it would be silly for me to say that I am not against you and then proceed to get kicked by you without kicking back. If Islam chooses to be against others, others can and will hit back equally or more murderously.

Nothing, not even Islam is immutable. Given sufficient incentive, Islam can be made into a religion of non violence. But not in words and verses. It has to show in actions

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2014 09:25

partha wrote:http://www.dawn.com/news/1141027/pakistan-us-ties-moving-to-trade-from-aid-us-envoy
Pakistan-US ties moving to trade from aid: US envoy


More like raid to aid, no?


The meaning is more ominous for Pakistan.
Their relationship was always Trade - the US would pay for services that the fauj would render.
They started giving them AIDs when the GOAT hunt began.

Now its back to the older arrangement -
Pak Fauj provides services, they get paid. They don't do what the US wants, no payment - Trade.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2014 09:27

Jivana wrote:To all the arguments about one baki is stronger than ten hindus, or hindus wetting their dhotis at the sight of paki nuclear bum, I always say that the pakis, and in general the muslims of the sub-continent, are actually a weaker race/society. Hindus survived the last thousand years, and are still here – our culture, society is still thriving but the weaker sections, which couldn’t stand up to the onslaught were forced to convert, under gunpoint. gazis, gaznavis, and abdalis raped and looted their ancestors, so when bakis says they are somehow better warriors than us all I tell them is we are still here, still believe and follow the same traditions and culture that our ancestors did. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for them. If their ancestors could be converted once, it could happen again, given the right circumstances in the sub-continent! :D :P


The reason I don't like this argument is that it acknowledges the claim that there is actually a race between Hindus and Muslims to show who is great and who survives. It validates the claim that "survival is victory". If Hindus are in a race with Muslims, it is the success of Islam to have created that race in the first place. It may be a failure that it could not succeed 100%. So Pakis say ,"Fine. It is an ongoing war and we are surviving and will defeat you in future"

So we have to argue "No we survived longer and we will defeat you"

Getting into this argument only helps Pakistanis. We need to sidestep this argument and simply point out that Islam's success is violence. Pakistan success has always been violence in the name of Islam. Therefore Islam means violence. There is no competition for that title. We will only answer violence with violence.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby partha » 29 Oct 2014 09:29

shiv wrote:
partha wrote:I agree that onus should be on so called moderate Muslims to take lead in fight against extremists of their religion. I have not seen a single moderate Muslim who has called for rejection of intolerant parts of Islamic scriptures or at least update them to fit the current times. All we get is boiler plate arguments from them. They are even trying to float the idea that ISIS is not Islamic. They just want non Muslims to accept that Islam is perfect and move on. Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.

It is not up to non Muslims to quote verses or paragraphs. Actions count. I don't give a flying fig if verse XYZ says blabla. As long as a person kills me or my kin in the name of Islam it is not just murder, it is premeditated murder promoted by Islam, screw the verses.

Definitely. Not disagreeing. Just pointed out how the so called moderate Muslims behave.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby johneeG » 29 Oct 2014 09:43

Historically, nomadic hordes attack settled Kingdoms. They launch raids into settled kingdom, loot it and do piracy. When the kingdom weakens, the hordes ransack the capital. After that the kingdom succumbs and the hordes occupy the throne. This is the general template of nomadic hordes.

What can the settled kingdoms do against such nomadic hordes?
a) Attack them in their base. But, generally, the nomadic hordes don't have a fixed base and whatever that they have can easily be transferred to another place. (This is a more difficult solution, but this is the only long term proper solution 50 yrs).
b) Build a wall. (This is a short-term solution 15 yrs)
c) Assassinate the leader of the nomadic tribes. Most of these tribes depend on some charismatic leader to lead them. Without a leader, they suffer setback. (This is a short-term solution - 15 yrs).
d) buy the the leader of nomadic hordes. Or pay tribute to stop the raids by the hordes. (jiziya or chauth method. This is appeasement and very temporary relief. This not a solution).

Now, bakis have been following the tactics of central-asian nomadic hordes against Dhesh. They send infiltrators(or raiders) or terrorists to bleed the country. They hope that Dhesh will keep getting weakened and someday, they would be able to sit on the throne.

What can Dhesh do against this tactic?
a) pay money to stop the terror attacks. (jiziya or chauth method. This is appeasement and very temporary relief. This not a solution): Dhesh would have done this. But, the bakis have been asking for Kashmir as their jiziya which is a very large sum. So, Dhesh has not followed this method. If Bakis had asked for a lesser price, then perhaps Dhesh would have paid it to stop the attacks.
b) Assassinate the leadership of Bakis. (This is a short-term solution - 15 yrs). This raises a question: who are the leaders in Bakiland? Baki-army. There is no one single leader as such who can be bought or killed. Maybe a group of 50 families can be identified and targeted. But, bakis would retaliate by identifying the dhesh's elites. In kongi rule, dhesh's elites would not want to risk such confrontation.
c) Build a wall. (This is a short-term solution 15 yrs). Dhesh has already erected a fence on Baki border. If the other borders are also fenced, then the terror attacks would reduce considerably. But, its a temporary solution which does not solve the bakis themselves. But, this is the cheapest and most easy way to handle the Bakis. But, this approach means that Bakis have no fear of being attacked. They can keep trying to scale the wall because Dhesh will not counter attack.

d) Counter-attack the Bakis in their base. (This is a more difficult solution, but this is the only long term proper solution 50 yrs). Generally, the nomadic hordes don't have a fixed base and whatever that they have can easily be transferred to another place. But, in Bakis's case, Bakis are not living in central-asia. They are living in a land suitable for settled kingdoms. Its a land of sujalam, sufalam, malayaja sheethalam. So, living in these lands, its not possible for the Bakis to act like nomadic hordes. They have been trying to convert the Bakiland into central-asia. But, its still not there. Bakisthan is a settled society, not a nomadic society(even though Bakis are trying to make it into a nomadic society). That means, Dhesh can counter-attack the Bakis. Dhesh can also launch counter-raids in Bakiland to hurt Bakis. Historically, jihadhi kingdoms in Dhesh were not raided by the Hindhu kingdoms(except the Maraatas) because most of the common populations of the jihadhis kingdoms were still Hindhus. So, raiding the jihadhi kingdoms would mean looting the the Hindhu populations. So, Hindhu kingdoms refrained. But, Maraatas did not refrain.

In the case of bakis, initially they also used this card against Dhesh. Infact, some people had hoped at the time of partition that muslim population of Dhesh and Hindhu population of Bakiland would be used as lever to stop confrontations between Bakiland and Dhesh. But, Bakis have genocided all the Hindhus in Bakiland. That means, Bakis don't have that lever on Dhesh anymore. Dhesh can go ahead and launch raids on Bakis.

Historically, whenever a central-asian nomadic jihadhi was severally attacked in Dhesh, they would run to Multhan. If they are still attacked, then they run to Gaandhara. If they are still attacked, then they will run away to Persia or Central-asia. Bakis are following the same model. Their strategic depth concept is just that. If the Dhesh attacks them in Paanchala, then they will run away to Gaandhara. Gaandhara is a gateway to central-asia and is more suitable to nomadic tactics. It is the start of bad-lands. This is the classic strategy.

The nomadic tribes depend on sheer numbers and repetition to wear down the enemy. The settled kingdom will have to overwhelm the nomadic tribes using superior technology.

I think the need for strategic depth was clearly brought home when Dhesh developed missiles. Immediately, Bakis realized that Dhesh could hit them in their homes. So, they clear up Afghanisthan so that they can run away to Afghanisthan whenever they are hit in their homes.

If Dhesh has missiles which have the range to attack Afghanisthan, then Bakis strategic depth is useless. It is useful only if Dhesh's missiles can't reach Afghanisthan's certain parts. In Bakis' case, they cannot run away to persia or central-asia. If they could, then they would have. In short, the populations which succumbed to the central-asians will have to be freed from that enslavement.

If Bakis had nukes, then they would have used it by now. I think Bakis don't have nukes.

I think the only card that bakis had was: Mutually Assured Destruction using conventional missiles.

Their logic seems to have that if Dhilli could attack Lahore, then Lahore can attack Dhilli. If Bakis can't afford to let Lahore be attacked, then Dhesh can't afford attack on Dhilli. This was tested during 1999.

Then, Dhesh developed anti-missile shield. Now, Bakis don't have any cards against Dhesh. It seems that the anti-missile shield was completed in 2006 & 2007.

Anujan saar,
Mushy was the one sleeping at the wheels while dhesh was developing anti-missile shield. Why was Mushy doing that? It seems that Mushy was concentrating on track-2 to taqiyally gain Cash-meare. Manly Singh's stand was that the borders can't be redrawn. However, the borders can be made irrelevant. In short, bakis would be in control. I think Mushy realized this was a good deal in the given circumstances and was happily lapping it up.

But, Mushy was overthrown and 26/11. 26/11 threw a spanner into these deals. Now, given the chronology, it seems that Mushy's overthrow was necessary for 26/11. Further, Mushy's overthrow was necessary to stop the track-2 deal. 26/11 also seems to be aimed at stopping the deal.

This raises the question who did the 26/11? And why? It seems to me that all fingers point to Amirkhan. But, what I can't understand is why would Amirkhan want to stop the cash-meare deal?

Anyway, the end result is that the Bakis have lost all their cards. Their one last hope was that the kongi system which has also been dashed.

----
Remember this?
How a terrorist called Zardari posing as Pranab
Something strange was going on...

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_28803 » 29 Oct 2014 10:08

shiv wrote:
Jivana wrote:To all the arguments about one baki is stronger than ten hindus, or hindus wetting their dhotis at the sight of paki nuclear bum, I always say that the pakis, and in general the muslims of the sub-continent, are actually a weaker race/society. Hindus survived the last thousand years, and are still here – our culture, society is still thriving but the weaker sections, which couldn’t stand up to the onslaught were forced to convert, under gunpoint. gazis, gaznavis, and abdalis raped and looted their ancestors, so when bakis says they are somehow better warriors than us all I tell them is we are still here, still believe and follow the same traditions and culture that our ancestors did. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for them. If their ancestors could be converted once, it could happen again, given the right circumstances in the sub-continent! :D :P


The reason I don't like this argument is that it acknowledges the claim that there is actually a race between Hindus and Muslims to show who is great and who survives. It validates the claim that "survival is victory". If Hindus are in a race with Muslims, it is the success of Islam to have created that race in the first place. It may be a failure that it could not succeed 100%. So Pakis say ,"Fine. It is an ongoing war and we are surviving and will defeat you in future"

So we have to argue "No we survived longer and we will defeat you"

Getting into this argument only helps Pakistanis. We need to sidestep this argument and simply point out that Islam's success is violence. Pakistan success has always been violence in the name of Islam. Therefore Islam means violence. There is no competition for that title. We will only answer violence with violence.


You hit the nail on the head about the root cause of their success so far, no disagreements there. However, my argument may not be perfect but I had a lot of personal success in demoralizing them with this approach. What I'm trying to say is in any line of discussion, we need to take the fight to the enemy, fight on enemy's territory, fight about enemy's ideology / philosophy - strike first, put the enemy on the defensive, let him spend his energy on defending his position, sit back and enjoy the show.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Dipanker » 29 Oct 2014 10:22

partha wrote:I agree that onus should be on so called moderate Muslims to take lead in fight against extremists of their religion. I have not seen a single moderate Muslim who has called for rejection of intolerant parts of Islamic scriptures or at least update them to fit the current times. All we get is boiler plate arguments from them. They are even trying to float the idea that ISIS is not Islamic. They just want non Muslims to accept that Islam is perfect and move on. Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.


IMO the call to reform Islam has to come from outside Islam, i.e. from West and East, the change from within Islam can not happen. In fact from within Islam the movement is in the opposite direction, towards Wahabization.

Keepers or Islam need to be told what kind of reform the rest of the world expects from them. The rest of the world needs to read them the riot act.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby chetak » 29 Oct 2014 10:30

Jhujar wrote:Abb Terra kya Hogga paakiyya

London- British Prime Minister David Cameron has reiterated that the United Kingdom wanted deeper ties with India while also making it aptly clear that his government would never interfere in the highly vexed Kashmir issue.The Conservative Party leader was today quoted as saying to a TV news channel,“We are two great democracies that face many of the same challenges. We need more economic growth; we need more investment in trade. We both have to fight extremism and terrorism. These are shared challenges that Britain and India should face together."The British Prime Minister, who is seeking re-election in the 2015 polls, also sought to woo the vast Indian population living in UK by calling for greater ties between the two countries.Cameron indicated that Britain did not intend to intervene in the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan by saying, "It is the engagement between the two nations and that was for these countries to lead these debates on this issue and not for others to interfere
."


The fakers have already interfered enough by creating the dispute in the first place.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby svenkat » 29 Oct 2014 11:14

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/toi-edit-page/why-modis-changed-approach-to-pakistan-is-more-likely-to-yield-detente/

The writer is a BJD MP from Odisha

is no longer just an Indian inference; it is now also corroborated by a growing body of work by Pakistan experts from outside the subcontinent. Two recent books, by British journalist Carlotta Gall (The Wrong Enemy: America in Afghanistan 2001-14) and American academic Christine Fair (Fighting to the End: the Pakistan Army’s Way of War), are cases in point. Gall highlights the flaws of the US war in Afghanistan, arguing instead that the country that needs tackling as root cause of the region’s strife is Pakistan.
Fair’s book is equally scathing, and extensively documents the Pakistan army’s track record of unprovoked aggression, duplicity, and of holding its own country hostage. She makes a compelling case for why it is in the Pakistan army’s DNA to deliberately and continually engage India.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Neela » 29 Oct 2014 11:35

Dipanker wrote:
IMO the call to reform Islam has to come from outside Islam, i.e. from West and East, the change from within Islam can not happen. In fact from within Islam the movement is in the opposite direction, towards Wahabization.

Keepers or Islam need to be told what kind of reform the rest of the world expects from them. The rest of the world needs to read them the riot act.


With the non-believer already being treated as the enemy of Islam, any calls from outside to reform will enable them to quickly deploy defense mechanisms and cite "Islam is in danger".

Too much importance is given to "trying to reform Islam" without considering what that investment will return. When the whole idea of Islam is self-preservation and violent expansion, this is a difficult ideological battle. And let us not forget that we are dealing with countries with the least scientific output and where little importance is given to education, logic, reasoning, progress through industrialization and technological advances etc. If I am a betting person, I would bet reasoning out with them will not being the necessary changes one desires.
Even when reading the riot act, why should we claim that their belief system is violent? In the vain hope that will change them somehow?
As said earlier, we set the conditions for peace and ensure that they follow that. Whether they reform,change, have a epiphany etc is our least concern.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SSridhar » 29 Oct 2014 11:50

Assailant was ‘incited’ by Taseer’s killer - AFP
Pakistani policeman Mumtaz Qadri, jailed for murdering ex-Punjab Governor Salman Taseer, incited a prison guard to shoot an elderly British man convicted of blasphemy, according to an internal inquiry.

Mohammad Asghar (70), whom British doctors say is seriously mentally ill, was shot and wounded by a guard at Adiyala jail in Rawalpindi last month.

Asghar was sentenced to death for blasphemy in January in a case that has prompted concern from British Prime Minister David Cameron.

The prison guard, Mohammad Yousuf, had spent more than two weeks guarding Mumtaz Qadri (in picture) and confessed to taking religious lessons from him, a senior jail official said.

He said an initial inquiry by a four-member committee found that Qadri had also prepared two other prison officers to hunt down blasphemy convicts in the prison {It was the same case with Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh. He did the same to his guards and indoctrinated them pretty quickly too}

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby RajeshA » 29 Oct 2014 13:01

partha wrote:I agree that onus should be on so called moderate Muslims to take lead in fight against extremists of their religion. I have not seen a single moderate Muslim who has called for rejection of intolerant parts of Islamic scriptures or at least update them to fit the current times. All we get is boiler plate arguments from them. They are even trying to float the idea that ISIS is not Islamic. They just want non Muslims to accept that Islam is perfect and move on. Extremists say "this verse from section 10 tells us to kill infidels, so we kill them." So called moderates respond (to infidels) "see this verse from section 20. Islam is tolerant and peaceful. You are just an Islamaphobe" quietly ignoring the verse from section 10 which the terrorists are quoting.


Moderate Muslim is a creation of the Western leadership to deal with Islam. It allows them to delay a confrontation with the Muslims. As democratically elected people they are "duty-bound" to protect the lives of their citizens. If they don't make the distinction between Moderate and Radical Muslims, they would have to go to war with Islam as a whole. Such a decision is hard so better to kick the can further down the road.

But mostly it also means that the Western elite can continue to make money dealing with rich Arabs and their Oil, as well as to use Jihadis as their own proxies for geostrategic games.

Moderate Muslim is an artificial concept, but generally refers to one who talks to you nicely and has not declared open warfare against you openly, regardless of how he proceeds to do his duty in the service of Islam.

Expecting Moderate Muslims to curtail radical Islam presupposes that both have different missions. Wrong assumption.

All over Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, Muslims are showing what they believe in and what behavior they respect. It is up to Kufr to provide them with all that they respect for only then they would follow your lead.

Moderate Muslims should not be burdened with unrealistic expectations.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Oct 2014 13:09

Gagan wrote:Kashi, CramS
I have a different take on why some of these people take this unusual line.
All these people in the media are motivated by money. There is money given to them to take that line - plain and simple.
Weather it is the Pakistanis directly via the track II junkets, or western/ european embassies giving them lifafas to do so.

All these netas, news anchors, news men are motivated by money. Someone pays them off.
In MS Aiyar's case it may be a combination of money, blackmail from a honeytrap, and his elitist leftwinging ness that is to play.


We Indians are a bit gullible here, we forget that the leaders in GCC especially, Saudi Qatar, Kuwait and Abu Dhabi will be more than happy with anther Islamic victory. I can bet that with thier deep pockets they are source of this, not complicated theories. If you want be on Track II etc, take a line which these rulers want.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Brad Goodman » 29 Oct 2014 16:18

Dubai court jails Pakistani smuggling heroin in bags carrying copies of Quran

The 30-year-old man, identified only by his initials M.T., was convicted for possessing 24 kilogrammes of heroin that was stashed in five bags with hidden compartments, the Gulf News daily said.

“When we opened the bags, we found prayer mats, rosary beads and copies of the Quran along with food and the drugs,” a Dubai International Airport customs inspector was quoted as saying.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Brad Goodman » 29 Oct 2014 16:23

How India can win over the Kashmiris
'No amount of economic measures or prosperity in Kashmir will make any dent in the situation there.'

'The average Kashmiri understands the Pakistani game and is unlikely to prefer Pakistan over India. But the Pakistanis have made clever use of religious symbols and slogans to force religious-minded Kashmiris to support them.'

'India has failed to counter this posturing by the separatists,' says Colonel Anil A Athale (retd).


No amount of economic measures or prosperity in Kashmir will make any dent in the situation. An average Kashmiri is an intelligent person and perfectly understands the Pakistani game and if a push comes to shove, is unlikely to prefer Pakistan over India. But the Pakistanis and their local sympathisers have made clever use of religious symbols and slogans to force religious minded Kashmiris to support them.

sooner of later we have to answer malsi. else the battles are always going to be only tactical

Some years ago, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah during a parliamentary debate had asserted that he is proud to be a Muslim, Kashmiri and an Indian. This is indeed the right ideological answer to the separatists. But the tragedy is that this has never been forcefully asserted by the political leadership in Kashmir.

The time has come to tell the Kashmiri that it is only in India can they retain their multiple identities as Kashmiris and Muslims -- of any sect.

The excellent relief and rescue work by the army and air force during the recent floods has provided the politicians with a window of opportunity to take the ideological battle right to the separatists.


I think Ajit Doval has been toeing similar line in his talks. We should be exploring it

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby KLNMurthy » 29 Oct 2014 16:52

pankajs wrote:The breaking away of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh was proof that religion cannot be the foundation of a nation state.
...

I question the logic and correctness of this often-believed statement. I realize that Bangladesh is not quite a fully Islamic state (despite,IIRC, the Islamic title in its name), but there is no reason why there can't be multiple Pakistans (please no jokes) carved out of a single Pakistan, each of them aiming for the greater glory of Islam.

A correct conclusion of the breakaway of East Pakistan might be that Islam (or religion) is not enough to keep a state united. That is quite different from what was said above.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Oct 2014 17:05

1. The "moderate Muslim" so dubbed by Western liberals is usually anything but.

2. There are real believers that have significant ideas - but they don't last much longer than Salman Taseer asking for the blasphemy laws to be amended.
Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mo ... Philosophy

Some more to say, but it would be off-topic.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Oct 2014 17:13

d) Counter-attack the Bakis in their base.


Nice analysis, but solution can come from a 'genetic algorithm', incorporating the best features of all 4 solution paths. Look carefully at history and see that this is what the British did to India, and perhaps what the Americans are doing to the MidEast.

a) pay some ambitious twerps and convince them that it is in their interests to do (b).
Then use a series of strikes to weaken the central power structure, hopefully already in turmoil due to (b). But try to get to a situation where there are some 4 entities of approximately equal power, and utter hate and fear of each other, are all fostered to challenge the 5th - which is the central entity.

The beauty (a bad word for something so horrible) of this hybrid approach is that it absolutely minimizes the level of both $$ and direct military force needed to cause total destruction and devastation (since there is no Indian interest in a direct takeover of TSP).

The US (or maybe Israel) is doing this quite effectively in the MidEast, and they are trying to do it to the former Warsaw Pact. In the case of the US/EU, the aim is indeed total takeover to use these places as captive markets (similar to the British Empire).

India may only want to erect walls (the last solution approach) to stem the tide of refugees and be selective in who is allowed to enter. This may still be the toughest part of the job.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SSridhar » 29 Oct 2014 17:37

Brad Goodman wrote:How India can win over the Kashmiris
Some years ago, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah during a parliamentary debate had asserted that he is proud to be a Muslim, Kashmiri and an Indian.

The order is important. I don't know what order Omar Abdullah implied or was he ambiguous as most Kashmiris have been?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Oct 2014 17:38

shiv wrote:I suggest imposing a counter dilemma for Islamists: "Islam is violent and we will fight unless it can be shown that Islam wants peace". This agrees with Islamists contention that others are against them and so be it.


My approach is "you are free to rot in peace as along as you are not violent about it". The Quakers in the US live peacefully using only the 19th century technology because that is their belief. If someone wants to build a 7th century community, that's fine. No violence or coercion, though.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby chetak » 29 Oct 2014 18:04

SSridhar wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:How India can win over the Kashmiris
{quote}Some years ago, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah during a parliamentary debate had asserted that he is proud to be a Muslim, Kashmiri and an Indian. {/quote}

The order is important. I don't know what order Omar Abdullah implied or was he ambiguous as most Kashmiris have been?


In the same order mentioned above.


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