Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

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UlanBatori
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Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Oct 2014 16:34

I am venturing to start a thread, to focus on just this one question. Who are the ISIS, really?

The answers so far do not make any sense. Here is a bunch of goon rapist murderers who appear to have come straight from the Pakistan Army, going by their barbarism against civilians. They are able to appear at will around and inside modern cities, and capture them as well as oil refineries, air force bases, border posts inside a matter of hours. They have superb mobility over the entire Middle East region. They are able to recruit (and transport recruits to training and battle) all over the world. Their weapons are modern - reputed to be American first-line weapons such as tanks, missiles, artillery. They are able to operate a polished PR network with easy access to world media and production facilities.

Yet there is not a single country that purports to support them: every country claims to want to eradicate them.

How can this be possible? Why is it so hard for the world's intelligence services and law enforcement agencies to find and stop the funding, trace the money sources and beat the cra* out of them? Why is is so hard to arrest the recruiters and beat the cra* out of them?

How can modern weapons flow to such an outfit, with all the controls set up by every nation?

So we are forced to the apparent conclusion:

The ISIS is a western-supported organization, allowed to exist, and actively supported, with tax dollars from USA and Europe, in addition to sponsors from the Middle East, all of who, enjoy protection by the Govts of USA and Europe and UK. You cannot just operate US-made tanks and artillery without a good deal of training. If this is true, then why are the World Media (even the Russians and Chinese) so silent on the greatest crime of the past century? Why are they not naming the criminals?

But please post only verifiable links, not rants.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Oct 2014 16:45

ISIS is a US subsisidiary, just as ISI is a CIA subsidiary

USA has created ISIS to ensure that Iraqi Govt obeys USA.

Just as ISI etc is to ensure that GoI obeys USA.

Also we focus on how we can deal with with USA, UK along with ISIS, ISI

But please post only verifiable links, not rants.


Dont worry. This was my last post in this thread

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vijaykarthik » 11 Oct 2014 17:00

No links currently. But will try to post them later as and when I come across new ones [since I keep coming across links, rest assured there should be plenty]

There are a lot of links that I read earlier that mention how IS was funded earlier / funds themselves now etc.

History:

-> Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, the proclaimed caliph [aka cartoon character], broke from Al-Queda sometime during the Syria conflict and became IS.
-> He was jailed by the Americans since he protested against the Al-Maliki govt [its widely mentioned that he became more fundamentalist in the jail]
-> As we all know, the Syria oppsn against Al-Assad was supported by every freaking idiot in town: Arabs, west [US&UK], turkey, etc etc. So there was enough funding, training, whatever it takes to become a terrorist by the west, turkey, Arabs etc etc
-> They attacked Mosul central bank and looted about a bn USD? [currently supposed to have 2bn USD and were earning close to 1mn / day thanks to refineries and oil wells. Close to 20% has got attacked. So make it .8 mn / day currently. Apart from pillaging, extortion, kidnapping etc etc]

Your current conclusion is slightly extrapolated. But however, its about 75% right. The US propagated all the necessary conditions and are currently surprised and shocked that the eventual outcome happened. I still wonder why when its perfectly natural that this is the exact outcome that will happen.

While we are at it: Never assume that Saudi, Qatar, Turkey want to see IS destroyed. At least, I don't think so. Which is the other aspect to the current fiasco.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby habal » 11 Oct 2014 18:27

this should give a clue ..

A Stanford University report on Mapping Militant Organisations places him as leader of Jaysh Rijal al-Tariqa al-Naqshbandia (JRTN), a group which began as a peaceful society but has grown into a nationalist force believed to have been “providing critical assistance to Islamic State (IS) operations in Iraq.”

The report states Al-Douri may even be acting as commander of IS forces, as their success in capturing Iraqi cities “was dependent on the military expertise and local connections brought by JRTN members”.


http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-eas ... 7020788085

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Oct 2014 23:02

How ISIS ended up stockpiling US arms

The U.S. disbanded the largely-Sunni Muslim Iraqi military, which fueled the rise of the anti-occupation insurgency


This gives a partial answer, but this is also the explanation that I don't believe. Are modern weapons so user-friendly that someone with no special training, no manuals, can simply climb inside a tank like inside a rental car, turn it smartly around and start driving and aiming and firing the weapons effectively?

So I have to assume that they have no shortage of personnel well-trained with American weapons. How did that happen? Defectors from Afghan/Iraqi armies?

The ISIS pattern has components from
a) Taliban, from circa 1982 to present, created by CIA, trained by Pak Army/ISI/CIA, staffed over 80% with Pakistan Army officers, Particularly the Taliban sweep of Afghanistan, capturing Kabul.
b) Somali warlords/pirates, in their ability to seize hostages, and melt out of sight.
c) Mali invasion, which is the closest in the pattern: hordes in jeeps appear at an isolated town and seize it.
d) Dogs of War type of mercenary-led operation funded by UK/US billionaires to seize oil and end Obama Presidency.

Now some more:
In situations where the attackers can avoid assaulting the prepared defenses of enemy forces, in which they do not seek to create their own defensive hardpoints, and in which they don’t face a foe capable of concerted counter-offensive action, a Toyota pickup truck isn’t as good as a tank; it’s better.

The truck is easier to maintain, faster, and gets better fuel economy than the tank. It’s also expendable. Technicals have mounted heavy machine guns as well as artillery and light anti-aircraft weaponry, including AA missiles. This doesn’t mean that ISIS has completely eschewed the use of dedicated military vehicles. Rather, the group has found uses for them within its broader fighting ethos. For example, the initial penetration of an Iraqi military base recently seized by ISIS was reportedly by Humvees disguised as Iraqi Security Forces.

And ISIS has undoubtedly acquired some tanks. It reportedly operates several dozen T-55s, and well as about a dozen T-72... While ISIS has captured some M1A1 Abrams given to Iraqi forces from the United States, putting these vehicles into useful service will prove far more difficult, as requirements for spares and ammunition are more complicated.


ISIS has reputedly used several different kinds of anti-tank weaponry, and has killed several varieties of tank. This includes Konkur and Komet anti-tank guided missiles (mainly seized from the Syrian Army), as well as the Chinese HJ-8 (taken in some cases from the Free Syrian Army), and Osa 90mm rockets. ISIS has also killed tanks through more traditional means, such as the use of RPGs, improvised explosive devices, and infantry placed charges. Targets include not only the old Soviet tanks (mainly T-55s and T-72s) operated by Syria, but also the much more modern M1A1 Abrams main battle tank.


A recent report from Small Arms Survey added some detail on the anti-aircraft weaponry currently owned by ISIS. The weapons used include light anti-aircraft artillery (mostly stolen from the Iraqi and Syrian armies), shoulder-fired SAMs (including the Strela and Igla; reports of Stingers have not been confirmed), and heavy machine guns.

Light insurgent forces often fall short in terms of artillery, but ISIS has managed to acquire a respectable arsenal. ISIS reportedly fields a wide range of mobile artillery, some mounted in trucks. This includes traditional infantry operated mortars, as well as a variety of larger, towed pieces. In particular, ISIS has managed to seize a large number of M-46 130mm field guns. ISIS has also become adept at creating makeshift artillery by mounting missiles and rockets intended for different purposes (sometimes including ground attack) from its trucks and other vehicles.

This gives ISIS a punch that more conventional forces need to respect. It has also given ISIS the ability to conduct extended sieges of defended positions in the face of conventional and air attack, as demonstrated in its recent seizure of Tabqa airbase.


The primary infantry weapon of ISIS has, unsurprisingly, become the AK-47 assault rifle and its variants. AK-47s are readily available in Syria and neighboring countries, and ISIS has sufficient cash to procure modern, reliable models, even as prices for guns and ammunition have increased. ISIS also has a well-regarded system of training, and focuses on experienced fighters. While the AK-47 is reputed to be the weapon of the ignorant and the untrained, the weapon becomes considerably more effective in the hands of experienced fighters with a grasp of modern infantry tactics. When supplemented with a variety of other light weapons, including RPGs, rockets, and light mortars, an AK-47 equipped ISIS team can fight formidably on both the offense and the defense. Focusing on the AK-47 also reduces ISIS’ logistical complications.

The big victories won by ISIS earlier this year allowed the group to take control of a large amount of American weaponry, previously operated by America’s Iraqi and Kurdish allies. Apparently, some of the airstrikes launched by U.S. and coalition forces have concentrated on these weapons. However, apart from the few instances noted above of ISIS using tanks and Humvees, we have little sense of how the group will try to fit these weapons into its operational concept. We also don’t know how ISIS will react to the massive expansion of the Western air campaign over the past few weeks.


OK, the report above is by an assistant professor at some US establishment place, and has no real basis.

Let's see some reports with better basis:
http://www.npr.org/2014/09/18/349464086 ... de-weapons

From NPR:
A group called Conflict Armament Research traces weapons in warzones and is studying arms used by ISIS. An investigator with the group, Shawn Harris, recently embedded with Kurdish troops fighting ISIS in Iraq and Syria. He says they've already come across some U.S.-made weapons on the battlefield.

SHAWN HARRIS: Yeah, we encountered a number of M-16A4s and an AR-15, which is actually a civilian rifle, but we did come across American-made weaponry.

CORNISH: So help us understand how you work exactly. Is it you're traveling with these local troops as they fight ISIS and then you pick stuff up or - how do you trace it?

HARRIS: With the Kurdish troops, what we do is we'll usually be based in the larger city that's safe, and there's not a lot of ISIS movement. And then the troops will notify us when they have captured something and will go in and document the weapons afterwards in a safe and secure location.

CORNISH: Walk us through the process of tracing the weapon. When you pick up an individual weapon, what are you looking for?

HARRIS: First we're looking for individual, unique markings and serial numbers, and so what we'll do is we'll take pictures of the entire weapon. Also there's little stamps, sometimes little symbols and whatnot, that'll tell you certain customs markings, or it'll tell you which component was made in which factory.

CORNISH: And we should mention there were several countries - right? - that you were able to trace weapons back to.

HARRIS: In terms of manufacturing, yes. However the tracing process goes much further than just getting the serial number and say, OK, well, it was made in China. That's all fine and good, but who did they sell it to, and then who did they sell it to? And then at what point did that weapon become an illicit weapon or basically fall off a truck or, you know, loose a receipt?

CORNISH: I think the question most people will have listening to this is, how do we know how ISIS got a hold of these weapons, especially in the case of U.S. weapons? Is there any way for you to determine that?

HARRIS: In terms of the U.S.-made weapons, the best guess we have right now is that they acquired it when they routed the Iraqi security forces back in June. There's no way to verify that. We know that the weapons have property of U.S. government stamped on them, but we can't really speak to the countries that are the intermediaries at this point. That's going to be in a few months or six months when we're able to actually track down the paperwork which actually takes longer than finding the weapon itself.

CORNISH: Now, besides military assault rifles that you might expect to find in a conflict zone, you found some more exotic weaponry, like anti-tank rockets. What have you been able to learn about those?

HARRIS: Again out best guess before the tracing requests come in is that the M79 rockets that we found were transferred from Saudi Arabia to the Free Syrian Army. There was a previous report about a large shipment of M79s to the Free Syrian Army to fight Assad in 2013, and so they matched the profile.

CORNISH: Based on what you've seen, is there any way to understand the scale of weaponry that ISIS has access to or the amount that it's captured that can be sourced back to the U.S.? I mean is there any way to know kind of what is out there in the battlefield?

HARRIS: It's a very good question, and it's very difficult to be able to tell because these captures that we do are the weapons that were left behind a lot of times. Sometimes they were forced to leave it because they had to move quickly, you know. A lot of the times, they're able to pick up the best stuff and take it with them. The variety of different calibers tells us that they have a pretty wide range of weaponry, and so it's not simply just a bunch of rebels with AK-47s. They have what could be called professional armies - set of ammunitions.


Now we get more specific on sources:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... udi-arabia

About funding:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-t ... ay-n208006

OK, I hear all this about "Oops! What have we created?" and I think that is 400% Brookhaven-Sandia.
The key difference with ISIS (and Taliban) is that they are not just out to make a couple of hits, they are seizing and holding territory. This means that they have a reasonable (if you can call them reasonable) expectation that they can survive as a STATE ACTOR, meaning that they have guarantees from the US/EU/UK. This explains the shyness of all the US and NATO to "put in ground forces". It is not out of saintly non-intervention, or even fear of casualties, but simply that they are carrying out an agreed plan.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby SwamyG » 11 Oct 2014 23:23

UB: I am sorry to ask the question. It is a serious question arising due to my lack of understanding of arms trade and other geo-politics.

Your first paragraphs with the observations are spot on. But why do you conclude it has Western (American and European) backing or support? Can it not be completely grown from the region? There is always the black market of arms. America and Russia will sell weapons to anyone for the right price.

You make a good point, operating a tank requires training and a stone throwing crowd cannot be expected to suddenly capture a tank and operate it effectively. Did American training of the Iraqi forces, directly or indirectly help these people?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Oct 2014 01:19

Question is: why is it so tough to find and weed out by the roots. Either they are

a) rising up from the general population in a US/NATO-controlled area, in which case aerial bombing cannot be used because of collateral damage,

b) or they are coming across deserts from other countries,

In Case (a), local authorities can simply go arrest the leaders and put the outfits out of business

In Case (b), satellites can detect the convoys and air attack (attack helicopters) can totally wipe them out, outside population centers. They cannot have any survivable supply lines.

Anyone found paying for any equipment/supplies for them on the international market would have been behind bars many months ago.

The US/NATO control Iraqi airspace. Why did they allow these guys to have freedom of movement? The hand-wringing rings false.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Oct 2014 01:29

For example, look at ISIS recruiting in India (or UK or US). So these semi-literate teenagers in Mumbai or Malloostan or Dera Chicago Khan or Londonabad knew how to get passports, how to buy tickets, and how to travel and join ISIS? If so, why does police/intel not have the same info? Where are they landing at the other end? Don't the local governments have the info on who sponsored their arrival? Air tickets take lots of money.

Or, how tough is it to follow a given teenager to the training camps?

Why is there no screaming in the US or UK about Intel Failure and inaction against the leaders of ISIS?

Re: the much-proclaimed arrests, see today's news that one of the main leaders has been released - by Turkey.

The story that the ISIS is funding itself with oil sales, is bogus. How are they smuggling the oil out? Surely not in Toyota pickup trucks. Are convoys of oil tankers that hard to detect in a desert country?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2014 08:15

UB The beheading modus operandi in modern times was the trademark of Harkat Ul Ansar which changed its name to JuD.

To me the beheading is a Paki fingerprint.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Oct 2014 08:31

Look at it the other way - the US spent scores of billions of dollars and many years training Afghan forces and Iraqi forces that can't fight. The ISIS puts together effective fighting forces in a matter of months.

This suggests more massive corruption and funds transfer from the American government to American contractors. Perhaps it is the American ineptness that makes ISIS seem so incredible. Maybe that is why they have to insist Ukrainian separatists are really Russian soldiers.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Anujan » 12 Oct 2014 09:05

A_gupta-ji Good point, but i'd like to suggest another perspective. The areas we are talking about in the middle east is not densely populated. Population of Syria is twice that of Mumbai. The area we are talking about is not large either. Area of Syria is half that of Maharashtra. They have a few important cities, random towns here and there. Same with Eyeraq. The latest town about which the world world is going gaga: Kobani, has a population of 50,000. Half are going to be women, probably a third children and a third old. Generously about 7,000 are fighting age. Who are probably no match for 2,000 well armed and trained yahoos with tanks and RPGs. So this "stunning progress" etc need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I was a teenager when Taliban took over Afghanistan. But I still distinctly remember the news. The news said something along the lines of "There is this new force, called the Taliban, who are sweeping across Afghanistan defeating all other factions. Nobody knows who they are and who their leadership is". Well, later we knew who they were.

The deal with "terrorist" organizations who capture and hold territory is that they arent terrorist organization at all. They are state supported entities with a proper hierarchy, chain of command, logistics and a strategic plan of how to capture and expand territory. ISIS is not a band or rogue "non-state" actors. They most definitely have state support for intel and strategy. They most definitely have a hierarchy, chain of command, discipline and payroll. Anyone remember "rag tag band of tribal raiders" who invaded JK?

The recruits themselves dont come as a surprise. When massa was in EyeRaq there was tremendous guerrilla warfare against massa soldiers. So the fighters themselves dont come as a surprise. What does surprise me is two things: The organization and discipline with with they are taking over territory. Last some did that, it was the Taliban. Second is their worldwide appeal. 500 yahoos from Londonistan have joined. So have idiots from Australia, France, Austria and Spain. Pakis are not this propagandu savvy. They are probably supplying low-level fighters. These idiots have most probably been recruited not over the internet as most people allege, but probably through a network of mosques. This is how the 9/11 attackers were recruited. Mosque networks are run by the Saudis.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2014 09:09

So US->KSA->TSP->mosques round the world to supply cannon fodder.

Where is UK the terrorist mother in all this?
Every Arab terrorist since WWI has UK support.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby johneeG » 12 Oct 2014 09:13

UlanBatori wrote:I am venturing to start a thread, to focus on just this one question. Who are the ISIS, really?

The answers so far do not make any sense. Here is a bunch of goon rapist murderers who appear to have come straight from the Pakistan Army, going by their barbarism against civilians. They are able to appear at will around and inside modern cities, and capture them as well as oil refineries, air force bases, border posts inside a matter of hours. They have superb mobility over the entire Middle East region. They are able to recruit (and transport recruits to training and battle) all over the world. Their weapons are modern - reputed to be American first-line weapons such as tanks, missiles, artillery. They are able to operate a polished PR network with easy access to world media and production facilities.

Yet there is not a single country that purports to support them: every country claims to want to eradicate them.

How can this be possible? Why is it so hard for the world's intelligence services and law enforcement agencies to find and stop the funding, trace the money sources and beat the cra* out of them? Why is is so hard to arrest the recruiters and beat the cra* out of them?

How can modern weapons flow to such an outfit, with all the controls set up by every nation?

So we are forced to the apparent conclusion:

The ISIS is a western-supported organization, allowed to exist, and actively supported, with tax dollars from USA and Europe, in addition to sponsors from the Middle East, all of who, enjoy protection by the Govts of USA and Europe and UK. You cannot just operate US-made tanks and artillery without a good deal of training. If this is true, then why are the World Media (even the Russians and Chinese) so silent on the greatest crime of the past century? Why are they not naming the criminals?

But please post only verifiable links, not rants.


Saar,
the problem with your analysis is that the same objections can be raised about all non-national militias(particularly the jihadi variety) that seem to suddenly appear on the horizon.

Generally, there are jihadi, x-ist and commie type of militias. There are also regional & sub-regional militias.

But, how do these militias suddenly become powerful? Who funds them? Who trains them? How do they manage to survive and even spread?

Generally, one is told that these militias & warlords fund themselves by illegally selling drugs, arms, human-trafficking, gold, diamonds, oil & other such items.

If creating militias is so easy, then there would be many militias being created. And if many militias or warlords are there, then they would all be fighting among themselves without any clear winner(unless one of them gets some special power or special support).

Then, how does it explain the phenomenon of Taliban or ISIS? Why are there not many other militias and warlords competing with Taliban or ISIS if creating militias was such an easy thing.

Given the all pervasive power of the west, how can any militia survive without direct or indirect support of the west? If the west seriously wants to curb a militia or a war-lord, I think they can easily create an embargo on that particular militia or warlord. Cut-off its funding. Cut-off its arms. Then, it is easily defeated.

Cutting-off funding is quite easy because most of the drugs, gold, diamonds, oil, ...etc end up in the west. So, west is the market. So, if the west wants, it can easily stop it. Further, west controls the banks. If the transaction is cut off, it creates further problems. West is also the source for the arms. So, west can cut-off the arms.

Perhaps, Russia can supply arms. But, where will the militias get the money to buy the weapons if the west stifles them?

West has so many options against these militias that it is simply mind-boggling that the west cannot control them and defeat them.

Take Taliban for example. How can west not defeat taliban after fighting it for 10 yrs(including troops on ground)? (BTW, drug production in Afghanistan increased dramatically after the invasion by the west).

The problem with this kind of questioning is that it leads to conspiracy zones. And once you go into conspiracy zones, then... .

To avoid going into conspiracy zones, its best to simply follow the western media's line. If the western media says something, just accept it and don't ask too many questions.

So, when western media says that ISIS suddenly appeared out of nowhere and managed to create a very strong militia almost to the standards of an army with many weapons(which just happened to fall in their hands, luckily), one must believe this narrative to avoid going into conspiracy zones.

Anyway, ISIS is Taliban of middle-east or Taliban is the ISIS of South-Asia. Sooner or later, there may be a merging of the two on the cards. A pan-Islamic ummah thing.

Iran is stopping this merger. So, invasion of Iran is on cards.

Invasion of Iraq, invasion of Afghanistan, & Invasion of Libya. Now, all these countries are under the grip of militias. Egypt didn't even need an invasion.

Its a nice pattern. West invades a country and creates anarchy. Suddenly out of nowhere, an islamic militia manages to rise and hold the place.

Someone might think that west and jihadis are working in tandem. But, obviously, that cannot be true because how can west be working with the jihadis? Jihadis and west are sworn enemies.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby habal » 12 Oct 2014 09:14

Remember those generals in Iraq army who suddenly vanished and asked their divisions to stand down. And one member of Saddam's coterie who has very smartly avoided capture all this while.

All these ex-Iraqi Army types have been coopted and make the base for what is ISIS in Iraq. They know the country inside out and know how to attack and where to attack and which towns to bypass during the attack. SO ISIS in Iraq doesn't require Unkil and is on autopilot.

ISIS in Syria is a different animal and mostly consists of jehadi talibs from Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Pakistan etc a veritable United Nations and they need guidance, so the commanders for ISIS in Syria are mostly Turkish Army Special Forces or GCC/American/Jordanian experts. Now this may also be the reason why they get regularly beaten by Assad's forces.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Klaus » 12 Oct 2014 10:09

The Northern Mali conflict was a test bed for ISIS. Also consider the recent Boko Haram kidnappings of schoolgirls in Nigeria as well as the Nairobi terrorist attack (with UK links).

ISIS is most definitely linked with AQIM, Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab. They've even gone on record stating their willingness to up the ante by using Ebola or Marburg infected jihadis against their opponents.

In-between the KSA and TSP participation lies the layer where UK-Kuwait-Bahrain-Qatar push in their covert support. Kuwait stands to gain a lot here.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Oct 2014 10:15

Anujan wrote:A_gupta-ji Good point, but i'd like to suggest another perspective. The areas we are talking about in the middle east is not densely populated. Population of Syria is twice that of Mumbai. The area we are talking about is not large either. Area of Syria is half that of Maharashtra. They have a few important cities, random towns here and there. Same with Eyeraq. The latest town about which the world world is going gaga: Kobani, has a population of 50,000. Half are going to be women, probably a third children and a third old. Generously about 7,000 are fighting age. Who are probably no match for 2,000 well armed and trained yahoos with tanks and RPGs. So this "stunning progress" etc need to be taken with a pinch of salt.


Anujan, that cuts both ways. Afghanistan or Iraq don't need 100s of thousands of troops if the militias they have to face are of the order of a few thousand.

....The deal with "terrorist" organizations who capture and hold territory is that they arent terrorist organization at all. They are state supported entities with a proper hierarchy, chain of command, logistics and a strategic plan of how to capture and expand territory. ISIS is not a band or rogue "non-state" actors. They most definitely have state support for intel and strategy. They most definitely have a hierarchy, chain of command, discipline and payroll. Anyone remember "rag tag band of tribal raiders" who invaded JK?


No doubt, but how was Pakistan in the case of the Taliban able to create rapidly forces that could defeat Soviet-trained Afghans? Likewise, ISIS is able to defeat US-trained Iraqis. The Peshmerga that don't have any official state sponsors apparently are a bit better. Despite Iranian and Russian backing, the Syrian army is barely able to hold its own with ISIS. Why is some state sponsorship so much more effective than other state sponsorship?

1. This idea that it takes years of training to make an effective fighter is probably a bit of an illusion the military-industrial complex likes to sell us.

2. Motivation and clarity of objectives is probably very important to creating effective fighters.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Klaus » 12 Oct 2014 10:33

ISIS-the organization has had an incubation period since early 2006 atleast, when Al-Maliki tried to put down the Sunnis resulting in sectarian strife. This was the point when ex-Baathists formed the core of what is now IS, they form almost 40% of the organization and almost 100% of the Hisbah.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Anujan » 12 Oct 2014 10:54

A_Gupta wrote: The Peshmerga that don't have any official state sponsors apparently are a bit better. Despite Iranian and Russian backing, the Syrian army is barely able to hold its own with ISIS. Why is some state sponsorship so much more effective than other state sponsorship?

1. This idea that it takes years of training to make an effective fighter is probably a bit of an illusion the military-industrial complex likes to sell us.

2. Motivation and clarity of objectives is probably very important to creating effective fighters.


That is the very essence of Assymmetric/Guerilla warfare. The status quo power has to administer the city, collect taxes, deliver post and take out the garbage. The yahoos just have to come in and blow up the post office. Same thing with the Taliban. For all their fighting prowess, their government was ousted in a week. US didnt even invade, they sent in a few advisors, special forces and dropped a few bombs. Let ISIS settle down. A new band of yahoos will then come and blow up ISIS post offices and win a "stunning victory"

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby member_20292 » 12 Oct 2014 11:05

A_Gupta wrote:Look at it the other way - the US spent scores of billions of dollars and many years training Afghan forces and Iraqi forces that can't fight. The ISIS puts together effective fighting forces in a matter of months.



it could also be that a lot of the iraqi army just deserted and joined the isis with new command and control. that seems more plausible.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Oct 2014 13:09

Anujan wrote:
That is the very essence of Assymmetric/Guerilla warfare. The status quo power has to administer the city, collect taxes, deliver post and take out the garbage. The yahoos just have to come in and blow up the post office. Same thing with the Taliban. For all their fighting prowess, their government was ousted in a week. US didnt even invade, they sent in a few advisors, special forces and dropped a few bombs. Let ISIS settle down. A new band of yahoos will then come and blow up ISIS post offices and win a "stunning victory"

Both Taliban and ISIS have set up states of a sort.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Oct 2014 16:49

I can believe that Liberation Armies can take over (e.g., Tutsis won Rwanda even after the genocide by Hutus) but usually (a) they are part of the majority community and (b) they have secure bases in neighboring countries, through which aid comes in.

Here, the ISIS is entirely Sunni. It is not Pan-Islam as the AQ claimed to be, nor 400% secular-Equal-Opportunity-Islamic-thieves like the Somalian pirates and Paki Generals.

BTW, seeing the ISIS MO, one concludes that the Taliban also did the same in Shia/ Hazara regions of A'stan except that they were "Freedom Fighters Just Like the American Revolutionaries" per Ronald 'Ray-Gun' Reagan and CNN, so we wouldn't have read about the slave-wimmen auctions etc.

But even the Taliban never did quite take over the Northern Alliance/ Hazara towns after they committed genocide in the ones that they did take over.

Unless they can establish relations with other nations, or hire Halliburton, they cannot do any sensible development/reconstruction. So theirs is entirely a reign of terror over a hated and hating population. The Mali gang were also like this, so yes, that was the template for this, just like the IA hijacking was the template for 9/11.

My point is that with all the technology of the western armed forces, and all the technology and $$T spending on economic security measures, there is no way that the ISIS can be getting weapons and selling oil without their trading partners getting caught/eradicated. Unless the governments are supporting them.

So we are down to 2 options: either BO&Co are complicit in this (Mahdi #2 etc) or they are biss-boor incompetent. Impeachment either way.

BTW, why do you think Kuwait stands to gain from this? They are the ultimate in Satanic de-jenerashun. Haraam by both Shia and Sunni standards. They may be paying blackmail, but their days are numbered.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Oct 2014 16:57

Since this is a video on FOX Lies, I can imagine what it says, but anyway: Col. Leighton says it is "not a real air campaign". That would seem to summarize it.

With a determined program of air strikes using attack helicopters and Predators, the ISIS would be a bunch of carcasses and burnt metal in the desert long before now.See the level of air support:
Meanwhile, the U.S. military said Saturday it launched an airstrike north of the town of Tal Afar, hitting a small Islamic State fighting unit and destroying an armed vehicle. It said two other airstrikes northwest of Hit in Anbar province targeted two small militant units.

Last week, Islamic State group fighters seized the towns of Hit and neighboring Kubaisa, sending Iraqi soldiers fleeing and leaving a nearby military base with its stockpile of weapons at risk of capture. The U.S.-led coalition recently launched two airstrikes northwest of Hit, U.S. Central Command said Saturday.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Oct 2014 19:18

UlanBatori wrote:For example, look at ISIS recruiting in India (or UK or US). So these semi-literate teenagers in Mumbai or Malloostan or Dera Chicago Khan or Londonabad knew how to get passports, how to buy tickets, and how to travel and join ISIS? If so, why does police/intel not have the same info? Where are they landing at the other end? Don't the local governments have the info on who sponsored their arrival? Air tickets take lots of money.

Or, how tough is it to follow a given teenager to the training camps?

Why is there no screaming in the US or UK about Intel Failure and inaction against the leaders of ISIS?

Re: the much-proclaimed arrests, see today's news that one of the main leaders has been released - by Turkey.

The story that the ISIS is funding itself with oil sales, is bogus. How are they smuggling the oil out? Surely not in Toyota pickup trucks. Are convoys of oil tankers that hard to detect in a desert country?


Here's something from NPR about oil biz of ISIS:
To Become Oil Barons, ISIS Has Sold To Neighbors And Enemies

They are following old formulas that states under sanctions used to move oil around.
DOURIAN: Well, that's what somebody said to me the other day. I said but I don't understand, you know, who's buying it? I mean, people have said - nobody's jumping up and saying, oh, I'm buying some of this stuff because there is a reputational risk of dealing with any of this illicit oil. But there has been a network of smuggling. It's not new. And they're not doing it directly. They're doing it through brokers. And then the brokers take it and sell it on. So if you wanted to make a quick buck, you don't really care where it comes from. I mean, Iran was doing it during sanctions. Iraq was doing it when they were under U.N. sanctions. And somehow they found buyers. So it's nothing new that there is a network of smuggling. It's historic. It's been there for a long time. And yes, they will fight each other on the ground, but at the same time, do business together. It's something that we don't comprehend, but it is going on.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Oct 2014 19:20

ramana wrote:UB The beheading modus operandi in modern times was the trademark of Harkat Ul Ansar which changed its name to JuD.

To me the beheading is a Paki fingerprint.

Saudi government does it too. Probably the primary model for beheading.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 12 Oct 2014 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby abhik » 12 Oct 2014 19:41

I suggest changing the part of the thread title from "ISI" to "ISIS" or more appropriately the "Islamic Caliphate" to avoid confusion.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Oct 2014 19:45

UB, I doubt there will be any smoking gun of collusion of West with ISIS. There is probably some subtle but effective sabotage of western decision-making process. There is a lot more stupidity than malice in the mix if you ask me. Some collective character traits can lead to constructive interference / send the system into oscillation:
--increasing stupidity of general voting population: worsening education and reduced intelligence
--unending failure and increasing capability to revie, inquire and introspect
--coupled with loss of confidence

When it comes to Muslim world, it is clear that most of them have no problem with ISIS, it is perfectly Islamic in that it follows pattern of Muslim conquest, information about which is part of the catechism of Muslim children. Their only real enemies are shias, seculars like Assad, late lamented Messrs. Gadafi and Saddam, and partial commies like Kurdi factions such as PKK. Specific regimes like qataris and saudis are under some sort of threat, but they will have a balance of power with ISIS and can always cut a deal when the dust settles. Somehow There seems to be a tacit agreement with Israel that ISIS will eat Jews later, after dealing with shias. And Christian West has enough strategic depth so that the ISIS can be stopped at Vienna as it were.

Driving and operating tanks etc without manuals? How do we know there are no arabbi manuals in the glove compartments? These weapons were almost brand new when ISIS got them and I imagine the US suppliers customized them for use by Arabs?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Oct 2014 20:06

Klaus wrote:ISIS-the organization has had an incubation period since early 2006 atleast, when Al-Maliki tried to put down the Sunnis resulting in sectarian strife. This was the point when ex-Baathists formed the core of what is now IS, they form almost 40% of the organization and almost 100% of the Hisbah.

+1

"Daesh (can we call them that, since it seems to be pejorative) appearing out of nowhere" is a bit like someone "suddenly" getting stage 3 cancer--in fact it was there all along and grew like all cancers but we didn't notice.

"West is all-powerful and has zillion options" is like Kumbhakarna being mighty. Useless unless deployed. Imagine if Kumbhakarna didn't have the dharmic motivation of duty towards his brother and king: he would have simply pressed the snooze button till Lakshmana showed up in his bedchamber, then to die helplessly or cut a deal and go into the lankan forest.

Without collective character and leadership no amount of might is of use. West today has a serious crisis of collective character.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vijaykarthik » 13 Oct 2014 11:44

UlanBatori wrote:The story that the ISIS is funding itself with oil sales, is bogus. How are they smuggling the oil out? Surely not in Toyota pickup trucks. Are convoys of oil tankers that hard to detect in a desert country?


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/34e874ac ... z3Ei81A7ij

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-1 ... y-wage-war

It was a known fact that Assad's army was openly buying oil from almost anyone who was ready to sell them. Besides, Iraq has been at this smuggling route for a long time now. [Its also known that Qaseem Suleimani was mopping up close to 1mn USD / day through Iraq and used it to finance the hizbollah & Quds]

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby Klaus » 13 Oct 2014 16:30

UB ji, why does Kuwait gain? Simple. Because this is TOTAL war.

During both the '91 and '03 operations, the Iraqis under Saddam were tricked into believing (and indeed fed wrong intel to the effect) that the western military thrust was going to come from Jordan, instead of Kuwait. So Kuwait is lining up its chips to make aggressive bargains with the UK, in particular. Its defied Khan by refusing to shut down a Islamic heritage foundation, apparently with tacit UK backing.

Blackmail is what is apparent on the surface. My take is that Kuwait wants a piece of West Qurna field and so does Qatar (which is primarily a natural gas producer).

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vilayat » 13 Oct 2014 17:02

ISIS is an excuse which will be used to engineer a war followed by a corrective market-crash in short to mid-term. At least this is thought of west. Jihadis are willing supporters in this scheme for they get to expand, train and be well-equipped.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby K Mehta » 13 Oct 2014 23:29

Iran’s Supreme Leader Says US, Britain Created IS Terrorist Group
The Supreme Leader of Iran Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Khamenei claimed Monday that the United States and the United Kingdom were responsible for the creation of the Islamic State (IS) terrorist group.
"They [the United States and the United Kingdom] created Al Qaeda and Da'esh [the Arabic acronym for the IS] in order to create divisions and to fight against the Islamic Republic [of Iran], but now, they have turned on them," Iran's top cleric said as quoted by Reuters.
Khamenei, Iran's leader for 25 years, also argued that Washington and its allies are seeking to create divisions among Muslims, rather than trying to eradicate the root causes of terrorism.
Earlier, the Supreme Leader of Iran reportedly turned down a US proposal to coordinate steps in the fight against the IS.
The IS jihadist group, also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) or the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), has proclaimed an Islamic caliphate on conquered territories across Iraq and Syria. Responding to the group's rapid advance, the United States launched airstrikes against IS insurgents – initially in Iraq in August, and later in Syria.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2014 01:31

vilayat, Welcome back. Need more eyes on the topic.

Sorry your email was too large(>64K) to post.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Oct 2014 05:41

So Turkey is allowing whole ISIS trains with tanks to roll through, and their troops seem awfully friendly with ISIS mofos.
ISIS recruiting is going on unchallenged inside Turkey.
KSA claims to have made air strikes, but for or against ISIS?
So far it looks like ISIS is Ottoman Empire revived.
Doesn't Turkey also enable free 'Schengen' access for ISIS across Oirope?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby SaiK » 14 Oct 2014 06:04

Daʿesh sounds like an arabic desh!

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby MurthyB » 14 Oct 2014 06:18

Many moons ago I had come across this:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG738.pdf

Divide and Rule
Divide and Rule focuses on exploiting fault lines between the various
Salafi-jihadist groups to turn them against each other and dissipate their
energy on internal conflicts. This strategy relies heavily on covert action,
information operations (IO), unconventional warfare, and support
to indigenous security forces. Divide and Rule would be the obvious
strategy choice for the “Narrowing of Threat” trajectory as the United
States and its local allies could use the nationalist jihadists to launch
proxy IO campaigns to discredit the transnational jihadists in the eyes
of the local populace. In the “Holding Action” trajectory, Divide and
Rule would be an inexpensive way of buying time for the United States
and its allies until the United States can return its full attention to the
long war. U.S. leaders could also choose to capitalize on the “Sustained
Shia-Sunni Conflict” trajectory by taking the side of the conservative
Sunni regimes against Shiite empowerment movements in the Muslim
world.


If I were a conspiracy theorist, it would appear that certain things described in this document are being implemented :mrgreen:

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vijaykarthik » 14 Oct 2014 06:43

UlanBatori wrote:So Turkey is allowing whole ISIS trains with tanks to roll through, and their troops seem awfully friendly with ISIS mofos.
ISIS recruiting is going on unchallenged inside Turkey.
KSA claims to have made air strikes, but for or against ISIS?
So far it looks like ISIS is Ottoman Empire revived.
Doesn't Turkey also enable free 'Schengen' access for ISIS across Oirope?


Nice point. But not yet. Turkey has been clamoring for attn. to join the EU and they did try to open a few chapters. But with this IS fiasco happening and turkey being noncommittal, I will not be surprised if the Turkeys EU push is pushed to the backburner by another decade or two.

Every step in a different way is a step away from a different decision. It does look like the EU accession option will be the sacrificial lamb for Turkey trying to achieve the self-actualization goal of reaching the altar of puritan Musalman-hood.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Oct 2014 06:53

If ISIS has free run all over Turkey, why are they not taking over Turkey? After all , it is the most secular and Satanish of all the Islamic Paradises? Makes absolutely no sense.

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vijaykarthik » 14 Oct 2014 07:12

:), it doesn't have a free run yet. Turkey still plays a fair bit of master to IS. But IS is controlled by Qatar, Saudi and the rest too.

Currently, the way I look at it: its Saudi & Allies [Bahrain, UAE, Egypt through Sisi front] vs Qatar and its allies [Turkey, funded extremists etc]. Over and above all this, we have the sectarian fights Shia vs Sunni too.
Add US and EU to the mix and douse it all in oil that comes from the wells, I say.

IS has a reasonable run over Turkey... but the sum of a few parts can never become whole. Overrunning turkey might be a long term ambition. But then by that time, a lot of borders will have got redrawn and the place will end up being in absolute boil?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby vilayat » 14 Oct 2014 15:49

ramana wrote:vilayat, Welcome back. Need more eyes on the topic.

Sorry your email was too large(>64K) to post.


Thanks :)

What email?

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Re: Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Postby hnair » 14 Oct 2014 16:36

UlanBatori wrote:If ISIS has free run all over Turkey, why are they not taking over Turkey? After all , it is the most secular and Satanish of all the Islamic Paradises? Makes absolutely no sense.


Ankara is naughty, but not nearly as much as other nearby spots. Any study of ISI, ISIS, al keeda et al are not complete, unless one digs deep into why those hotspots of leche like Dubai, Manama and Doha are not teeming with unrest from the faithfool underdogs. After beheadings become boring, these piss-poor faithfool underdogs seem to come to these lavish places, wash off the wet-donkey smells, gel their hairs using motor-grease and smiles most ingratiatingly at the east-oiro ladies. Their brows do not seem to furrow with fine thoughts of teaching the local sheekhs any lessons in biousness.

Curios how these cities manage the issue, what with lots of tempting wide-body hawaeee-jigasses and tall big-burjee buildings 8)


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