Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 12 Dec 2014

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2014 21:18

CRamS wrote:JEMJi, good points. When I read that articles last night, and I did so 2 times, I realized there was a hidden motive, or shall we say a hidden wish (and knowing that when it comes to foreign policy, there is a unity of purpose among whites) that the entire Indian subcontinent be fragmented. And the usual colonial pride, that but for the Brits, there was no sense of unity. What he also seems to be saying is that fragmentation is inevitable in unstable countries like TSP, but he also says that India might be a responsible state, but it too will get fragmented.

India is already 20 plus nations united only by Hinduism and now a "holy book" the Indian constitution that allows states to do what they like as long as foreign policy and defence are left to the center. India is decidedly not a monolithic single state. It is fragmentation united.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 25 Dec 2014 21:21

Shiv ji,
iS that your view or you are being sarcastic.
Thanks,
Ravi

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 25 Dec 2014 23:01

Interview in Lal Masjid premises. watch how momin tiptoe around the blame passing for the school massacre. Nobody wants to name the taliban

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Dec 2014 01:05

fanne wrote:Shiv ji,
iS that your view or you are being sarcastic.
Thanks,
Ravi

You have been a member of the forum since 1999, you should know better!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Dec 2014 01:12

CRamS wrote:JEMJi, good points. When I read that articles last night, and I did so 2 times, I realized there was a hidden motive, or shall we say a hidden wish (and knowing that when it comes to foreign policy, there is a unity of purpose among whites) that the entire Indian subcontinent be fragmented. And the usual colonial pride, that but for the Brits, there was no sense of unity. What he also seems to be saying is that fragmentation is inevitable in unstable countries like TSP, but he also says that India might be a responsible state, but it too will get fragmented.

Robert Kaplan is just another Anal-yeast, who cares what he says. The accompanying map in the article shows Bihar as a separate entity from India, can't take him seriously after that!

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 26 Dec 2014 03:09

shiv wrote:India is already 20 plus nations united only by Hinduism and now a "holy book" the Indian constitution that allows states to do what they like as long as foreign policy and defence are left to the center. India is decidedly not a monolithic single state. It is fragmentation united.

Yes, I agree. I, while explaining India to a European, always say this thing. We are a nation of more than two dozens countries glued together by shared culture. And NO we did not unite because of the british raj but we were always united for thousands of years. "yada yada hi dharmasya, glanir bhavati bharata..."

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 26 Dec 2014 03:19

We have cross fault lines. People divided by something are united by some other thing.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Dec 2014 06:42

Guys, had a long conversation with a Paki at a local Indian grocery store worth sharing. Forget about how it started, but it ended up talking about Peshawar attack. Like a programmed Paki, he repeated the same crap about how TSP is not going to make any distinction between "good" and "bad" Taliban. I said how about "good" and "bad" terrorists. He said yes, that too, Paki army is very powerful with nukes and no terrorist can mess with it. I then asked how come Haeez pig and Lakhvi are roaming free. He dismissed them as insignificant. I said what are you talking about, they are responsible for attacking India. Then he said, they will be taken out once "Kashmir issue" is resolved, because then they will become "irrelevant". By this time, I knew this guys was trained well in ISI speak.

Then I asked what do you mean by "Kashmir issue" being resolved? He said plebiscite and even UN declares it so, its an international issue. I asked him if he knew what the UN resolutions actually call for. He had no clue, or was beating around the bush repeating plebiscite garbage. Then I asked him, how about the recent election, 70+ turnout, isn't that the people talking? He said no that turnout is a rumor. He said the turnout was less than 30%. I asked where he got that #, he CNN and CBS

. I had enough by this point, and politely said see you.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 26 Dec 2014 06:51

CRamS wrote:Guys, had a long conversation with a Paki at a local Indian grocery store worth sharing. Forget about how it started, but it ended up talking about Peshawar attack. Like a programmed Paki, he repeated the same crap about how TSP is not going to make any distinction between "good" and "bad" Taliban. I said how about "good" and "bad" terrorists. He said yes, that too, Paki army is very powerful with nukes and no terrorist can mess with it. I then asked how come Haeez pig and Lakhvi are roaming free. He dismissed them as insignificant. I said what are you talking about, they are responsible for attacking India. Then he said, they will be taken out once "Kashmir issue" is resolved, because then they will become "irrelevant". By this time, I knew this guys was trained well in ISI speak.

Then I asked what do you mean by "Kashmir issue" being resolved? He said plebiscite and even UN declares it so, its an international issue. I asked him if he knew what the UN resolutions actually call for. He had no clue, or was beating around the bush repeating plebiscite garbage. Then I asked him, how about the recent election, 70+ turnout, isn't that the people talking? He said no that turnout is a rumor. He said the turnout was less than 30%. I asked where he got that #, he CNN and CBS . I had enough by this point, and politely said see you.

You're arguing with pakis at grocery wallas? Time for winning debating points is long over. AD has explicitly said: "Another Mumbai and you lose Baluchistan".

Don't waste your breath with the pakis. Don't engage them.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Dec 2014 06:53

had a long conversation with a Paki

Isn't it amazing that His Excellency the Ambassador of Pakistan would give time for long conversations?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Dec 2014 07:02

~~CRamS ji: A wasted 5 minutes or is it 2 minutes? Still 2 minutes too many.~~ Bowing out - the Mongolian had entered the ring - raNa ranga.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Dec 2014 07:33

BTW guys, he was the one who started talking to me asking about some grocery item, and then the conversation veered on to politics. BTW, I forgot one funny tit-bit. When he said Paki army is very powerful and nobody can mess with it, I couldn't resist taunting him and asked how come US nabbed OBL from right under the nose of Paki army. Believe it or not, he said, it was actually Paki army that helped US nab OBL. I asked him why doesn't the Paki army admit it in the open then. He gave some wishy washy BS answer. He struck me as one of those RAPEs who is not overtly anti-US, but anti-India to the core a.k.a "moderate Paki" in western parlance.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Dec 2014 08:02

with loud voice , you should have claimed "arent paki army involved in genocide in balochistan

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2014 08:05

CRamS wrote:Guys, had a long conversation with a Paki at a local Indian grocery store worth sharing. Forget about how it started, but it ended up talking about Peshawar attack. Like a programmed Paki, he repeated the same crap about how TSP is not going to make any distinction between "good" and "bad" Taliban. I said how about "good" and "bad" terrorists. He said yes, that too, Paki army is very powerful with nukes and no terrorist can mess with it. I then asked how come Haeez pig and Lakhvi are roaming free. He dismissed them as insignificant. I said what are you talking about, they are responsible for attacking India. Then he said, they will be taken out once "Kashmir issue" is resolved, because then they will become "irrelevant". By this time, I knew this guys was trained well in ISI speak.

Then I asked what do you mean by "Kashmir issue" being resolved? He said plebiscite and even UN declares it so, its an international issue. I asked him if he knew what the UN resolutions actually call for. He had no clue, or was beating around the bush repeating plebiscite garbage. Then I asked him, how about the recent election, 70+ turnout, isn't that the people talking? He said no that turnout is a rumor. He said the turnout was less than 30%. I asked where he got that #, he CNN and CBS . I had enough by this point, and politely said see you.

Interesting. I wouldn't have guessed it. i think you just found a unique and unusual Pakistani. Stop judging Pakistanis by the meeting you had with just one guy. Your information is out of date.

Most Pakistanis I meet are concerned about the Lashkar e Toiba and Hafiz Saeed and want them arrested. They assert that Kashmir belongs to India and nowadays I am amazed at how Pakistanis know the exact conditionalities that were set by the UN for the plebiscite. Most Pakistanis are apologetic and regretful when they admit that Paki stan should have withdrawn troops first. But only one Pakistani taught me a real lesson in history. I was having this same argument about plebiscite etc and he reminded me of the Shimla agreement and Lahore agreement that further rendered the UN resolutions invalid.

Peshawar changed everything. Pakistanis, who are moderate in everything are out in numbers. I even heard that the training course in the Kakul Military academy is being changed from "India the main enemy" to "Violence, terrorism and radical Islam" as the challenges faced by a newly secular Pakistani army. The extremists in Pakistan are finished. Expect Dawood and Hafiz Saeed to be arrested any day. Already as winter sets in the fields of Opium are being burned down and ploughed for planting carnations and roses next season.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2014 08:08

UlanBatori wrote:
had a long conversation with a Paki
Isn't it amazing that His Excellency the Ambassador of Pakistan would give time for long conversations?

Toilets have ambassadors now? Wonderful! My daddy had told me that you can get anything in Amrika.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2014 08:17

Talking to a Paki is like talking to a turd. You prod the turd thinking that the yellow that shows up is different, but the turd tells you "No. I still stink"

You don't believe that. You persist and say "No. Maybe you don't stink. Maybe there's roses inside you" and you stir up some more yellow.

And the turd shows its inner self that says "Nope. I still stink"

Of course the wise will nor argue with a turd, but how does one learn, but from experience?

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 26 Dec 2014 08:26

According to the Pashtunwali tribal code, killing a person of another tribe can start long blood feuds. This keeps the intra-tribal rivalry to smaller levels. If the Talibums killed the Pasthun children in that Army School, they become liable for blood feuds. Was that a consideration for them? Or, did they know that that Army Kids are predominantly non-Pashtun, most likely Pakjabi?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 26 Dec 2014 08:28

Shiv, we are following dharma and our Indic way of convincing our opponents (who in this case happens to be of a blood thirsty cult). We talk to them trying to show them the light. This what people from Shri Kishan to Mahatma Gandhi did. No?

Added later :

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 26 Dec 2014 08:34

While the RAPEies are saying "no good Taliban/bad Taliban" nonsense, here is what the Urdu talk shows are doing:

Narendra Modi arranged for Peshawar. The day has finally arrived folks, Modi has delivered his pogrom that he always promised us Hindoooo fundamentalists.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Dec 2014 09:06

I totally agree that its a waste of time arguing or even talking to a Paki (in the case of talking, unless one has to, for e.g., in a professional setting here in US). For that matter its a waste of time talking to many a pseudo secular Indian, NRI or RNI too. Its just a waste if time and breath.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 26 Dec 2014 09:59

Do what I do...So how's the economy in West Pakistan?

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 26 Dec 2014 10:06

shiv wrote:Talking to a Paki is like talking to a turd. You prod the turd thinking that the yellow that shows up is different, but the turd tells you "No. I still stink"

You don't believe that. You persist and say "No. Maybe you don't stink. Maybe there's roses inside you" and you stir up some more yellow.

And the turd shows its inner self that says "Nope. I still stink"

Of course the wise will nor argue with a turd, but how does one learn, but from experience?

Excellent analogy.
There was a time long back(before 9/11) i would say hello to Paki colleagues at work. In the present times, i put them on a ignore button. Not even worth wasting your breath.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Dec 2014 10:09

One wonders where the media in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan finds authors like this Dr.Agha Inamullah Khan!

Check out his article titled “DOVAL THE DEVIL, MASTERMIND BEHIND SCHOOL CHILDREN MASSACARE” in a media outlet from the “Land of the Pure” called Zem TV.

Besides a fixation on Hindu’s he seems to be fixated on Mohammaddens of the Sunni sect and Deobandi sub-sect, Saudi Wahabbis, MOOSAD (sic) and naturally the CIA.

Does anyone have an idea on the Mohammadden sectarian / subsectarian identity of the author and who the owners of this Zem TV are?

DOVAL THE DEVIL, MASTERMIND BEHIND SCHOOL CHILDREN MASSACARE

For background, an earlier screed by this Dr.Agha Inamullah Khan also in Zem Tv:

WHO, IS POLLUTING PAKISTAN WITH POLIO?

partha · Post by **partha** » 26 Dec 2014 10:26

Summary of RAPE response to Peshawar attack. Two categories -

1. There is no good Taliban or bad Taliban. All Taliban are terrorists.

- RAPEs responding this way are conveniently ignoring India focused jihadis. No mention of JeM or LeT.

2. Establishment should stop using jihadis as proxies altogether. This is weakening "legitimate Kashmiri freedom struggle".

It is all about Kashmir/India. So much for Indians showing solidarity with Peshawar victims (good PR though. Some brownie points. kaam aayega baad mein). IMO both the responses will weaken Pakistan's Kashmir stand. In the first case, it'll bring out the hypocrisy and double standards of Pakis in fighting terrorism. Pak establishment may one day cease to have monopoly on violence leading to disintegration. In the second case, RAPEs are essentially saying Paki jihadis should not be fighting for Kashmir rather army should do the job. Army should do ghazwa-e-hind and not their proxies.

But Pak army is incapable of winning a war which they have demonstrated so many times! Second case would require de-radicalization of Pak society which I think is impossible now.

Example of second case - https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=782078031875089

A passionate speech by one Hazara Shia. He says - "hamare paas saath lakh ke army hain. hum afghanistan aur kashmir fatah karne ke liye dus saal ke Pakistani bache ke haath mein kalashnikov damaya. saath lakh ke army humne gaajar kaaTne ke liye banayi thi?". So army should stop cutting carrots and capture Kashmir without Pakistani kids being handed AK47s. Maybe he should read a book or two about his army's history. Another point he makes is about Ahmedis being classified as "kaafirs" by law. RAPEs keep making this point. What's funny about this is that the outrage is about wrong classification of Ahmedis but not the concept of "kaafir" itself. A true liberal would condemn the concept of 'kaafir' itself and call for reforms. I have never seen RAPEs doing that. They are bogus liberals.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 26 Dec 2014 11:32

It is hightime to stop looking at Bakiland as one united country or people. It is not an united country. Rather it is an occupation by the Pakjabis who are keeping other regions under their control using the money and weapons provided by America.

Balochis are openly fighting for their freedom from occupation of Pakjabis and are requesting anyone and everyone to support their quest for freedom.

Pakthuns are also fighting a war against the Pakjabis. The relationship between Pakthuns and Pakjabis is very interesting. Pakjabis seem to have decided that the Pakthuns are the biggest threat to them inside the borders. So, they try to deal with this internal threat by sending them as cannon fodder to meet external threats. This is a very cunning move by the Pakjabis. If the Pakthuns die while dealing with external opponent, it is the victory of the Pakjabis. If the Pakthuns are able to deal with the external opponent, it is still the victory of the Pakjabis. Pakthuns are mere cannon fodder who will keep on dying.

Sindhis seem to have been able to establish some kind of political power. So, they are not treated as badly as Balochis or Pakthuns. But, even Sindhis cannot match the Pakjabis. Pakistan is essentially a Pakjabi country for Pakjabis by Pakjabis and of Pakjabis.

The Pakistani army is dominated by the Pakjabis.
The Pakistan diplomats are Pakjabis.
The Pakistani media are Pakjabis.

Bhaarath should concentrate on freeing up Balochistan and Pakthun from Pakistan. Then, Sindh can decide whether it wants to stay with the Pakjabis or not.

----

It seems that Balochis are fighting for freedom from what they consider as occupation of Pakjabis. There seem to be many human right violations in Balochistan by the Pakistan army which is predominantly pakjabi. Balochistan is a resource rich region which is being looted by the Pakjabis according to the Baloch freedom fighters.

I was watching an old interview of a respected Baloch leader on Youtube. His name is Akbar Bugti. What is interesting is that at one point in the interview he compares the resources of the Balochistan region to 'Gau-Maatha' i.e. 'Cow-Mother'. This can be understood instinctively by Hindhus. Baloch language also seems very close to Hindhi. Infact, it just sounds like a different dialect of Hindhi.

In the above video, at 31:50, he says that Balochistan resources are like 'Gau-Maatha'.

BTW, that old and respect Baloch leader, Akbar Bugti was killed by the pakistan army.

And his son Brahamdagh Bugti is now being pursued by the Pakistan army. Brahamdagh Bugti claims that he is fighting for the freedom of Balochi people from the occupation of Pakjabis. He has frequently requested for support from any country in the world. He has requested Bhaarath, America, Afghanistan or anyone else to support them for freedom from the occupation of Pakjabis.

Pakistan media which is also dominated by the Pakjabis claims that Bhaarath is involved in destabilizing the Balochistan region.

Pakistan army keeps heavy military presence in the Balochistan region and there seem to be many checkposts in the region. Baloch people openly say that they do not consider themselves as Pakistanis but they are Balochistanis.

It seems that the Balochistan has an ancient history and is fully aware of this ancient roots. Balochis frequently say in debates or interviews that they belong to an ancient culture of more than 9000 yrs.

In the above video, at 5:50, a Balochi says that the Balochistan civilization is an ancient one of more than 9000 yrs while Pakistan is merely a construct of 60 yrs.

It seems to me that the Balochistan is the successor of the ancient state of Sauvira.

Sindh -> Sindh
Sauvira -> Balochistan
Kekaya -> Pakthunkwa

Yavana seem to be a nomadic region between Sauvira and Kekaya.

Gaandhara -> Kandhahar (Afghanisthan).
Shibhi -> Seriaki
Panchala -> Punjab
Bahlika -> Turkmenistan

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2014 12:02

johneeG wrote: In the above video, at 5:50, a Balochi says that the Balochistan civilization is an ancient one of more than 9000 yrs while Pakistan is merely a construct of 60 yrs.

I haven't seen the video yet, but the above is a famous quote of Akbar Bugti. He used to say that he was a Baloch for thousands of years, a Muslim for 1000 years and a Pakistani for a mere 50 years. he probably should have mentioned, a reluctant Pakistani too, just to rub it in.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Dec 2014 12:04

^^^ Being against Pakistan or Pakjabis, or even appealing for Indian help, does not translate into being pro-India.

partha · Post by **partha** » 26 Dec 2014 12:12

SSridhar wrote:
johneeG wrote: In the above video, at 5:50, a Balochi says that the Balochistan civilization is an ancient one of more than 9000 yrs while Pakistan is merely a construct of 60 yrs.
I haven't seen the video yet, but the above is a famous quote of Akbar Bugti. He used to say that he was a Baloch for thousands of years, a Muslim for 1000 years and a Pakistani for a mere 50 years. he probably should have mentioned, a reluctant Pakistani too, just to rub it in.

wow..great quote.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2014 12:13

arun wrote:One wonders where the media in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan finds authors like this Dr.Agha Inamullah Khan!

Check out his article titled “DOVAL THE DEVIL, MASTERMIND BEHIND SCHOOL CHILDREN MASSACARE” in a media outlet from the “Land of the Pure” called Zem TV.

There is a deep method behind this madness. This kind of talk is being orchestrated by the ISI to justify a continued hatred for arch-enemy kufr India and also to justify planned LeT/JeM attacks. The PA exploits every adversity it faces as an opportunity to attack India and further hatred among the Pakistanis for us. It knows very well that unless this hatred is sustained, the enduring hostility cannot be sustained.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 26 Dec 2014 12:46

http://orbala.wordpress.com/2014/12/16/ ... -about-it/

How not to respond to Peshawar School Attach.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 26 Dec 2014 13:05

Not sure if PBM's column post Peshawar incident was posted:
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... new-story/

It is foolhardy to write on Pakistan. The country reveals the limits of most political analysis. Most political analysis explains violence in terms of something else: fundamentalism, tribal anti-imperial resistance, injustice, military use of mercenary groups etc. That “something else”, offered as an explanation, often turns into a rationalisation. With certain sorts of violence, we have to admit that our social explanations cannot do away with the obscurity of violence. Many societies deploy violence in different ways. But the depth of crisis in a society can be measured by the degree to which violence escapes the boundaries of instrumental logic. It threatens to become sui generis, where the point of violence is, to a certain degree, violence itself. It becomes a syndrome, not an instrument.
It is also awkward for Indians to comment on Pakistan. Pakistan has some incredibly brave commentators. Its literary culture captures the violent absurdity at the heart of Pakistan with an unmatched depth and precision. But it is equally true that even in the midst of tragedy, an Indian comment, even an act of solidarity, is intentionally misunderstood as a conspiracy or condescension or both. In many circles, this psychological fragility is still quite apparent. Here again, the means become an end: there are no historical forces that can now explain the character of anti-India resentment; rather, it is the resentment that drives the understanding of historical forces and, therefore, leads to a misdiagnosis. This is why much of the talk about addressing root causes, reassuring gestures, seems to miss the point. Some of this may help at the margins. But at this stage, it is mostly irrelevant. And given the record of the Pakistani state, Indian gracelessness is the least of its problems. The history of India and Pakistan is marked by a series of traumas, from 1947 to 1971, and then the recurring shadow of terrorism, on which Pakistan’s attitude has been self-defeatingly abominable. But in a strange way, India is actually the only possible real friend Pakistan has among the Great Powers. And if it recognises this, it could open more political space for itself.
Counterintuitive as this might seem, it is actually true. There are several reasons...

member_28640 · Post by **member_28640** » 26 Dec 2014 13:42

Meanwhile our Baki Birathers at IBN Live have given space to one our birathers from the religion of the beast here is what he had to vomit:

From time immemorial month of December has always left an indelible imprint on the sands of time. Be it the birth of Prophet Jesus Christ who gave a new meaning to human existence from here to eternity, or lesser individuals not anointed spiritually by divine cahier like Quaid-e-Azam described succinctly by his biographer Professor Stanley Wolpert: "Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three."

December has also been surfeit with earth-shaking eventualities that have been pregnant with seeds of ominous consequences. On 16th December 1971 half of world's largest Muslim country was sacrificed at the altar of Praetorian ambition when Pakistan's military coterie preferred to surrender before an alien army rather than hand over power to its own people and legitimately elected leader.

In this month too yet another colossal tragedy dealt an irreparable blow to Pakistan. It was a combination of an insatiable lust for power of a general and religious militants in cahoots with him-to assassinate Pakistan's most outstanding leader - Benazir Bhutto on December 27th. What we suffered as a nation on December 16th this year in Peshawar - most horrendous mayhem of students and their teachers ever-it was nothing but most brutal manifestation of a crime most foul as Benazir Bhutto's assassination.

General Zia's coup and his conspiratorial execution of popularly elected Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in cahoots with the apex judiciary plunged the country into a quagmire of divisiveness, uncertainty and instability that was attempted to be reversed by martyred Benazir Bhutto by putting into action her concept of "democracy is the best revenge". Her assassination in the garrison city of Rawalpindi eight years ago - like the assassination of Pakistan's first Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan at the same place followed by martyred ZAB's execution on the trumped charge of murder- in Rawalpindi jail not far from it-has been a blow from which there are no signs of retrieve.

Too much hurt by the bloody events in Pakistan I have been in a process of fading away. I feel we have rendered ourselves into a state that is neither here nor there. I was wondering do we have a face and courage to pay tribute to martyred Benazir Bhutto on her assassination anniversary. Most certainly at least I did not. She dared to return home despite threats of a two-in-one general in power and his rent-a-jihadi supporters that she would be eliminated the moment she steps onto Pakistani soil. Yet she did-all friends and supporters-opposing her return. She did it as she believed to die for a cause that was to singe military dictator in his den. With the question to write or not to write--indecisive to pen my painful note in her memory, eyes dried of tears and heart surfeit in grief-my wandering in the memory lane-pushed me in the time tunnel. This morning at 2:30 am I saw her in my dream, her angelic mien, head covered in flowing white dupatta and green shilwar-qameez calling upon all those who cared for her and her Pakistan to save the country from going to dogs. I could sleep no more. I can recall her words- "did I and thousands of others sacrifice their lives, walked to gallows, faced long and torturous incarcerations at the hands of dictators usurping democratic rights of the people with their naked bayonets and lethal bullets - deserve to be pushed back into dark ages. Its time for the nation to wake up from its deep slumber and save Pakistan from becoming a deluge- by getting tougher as challenges are enormous and our enemies too lethal. We have not only to revert Pakistan to the liberal, secular and democratic vision of the Quaid but to protect our Islam - a religion of peace-from their suicidal abuse."

Indeed, it is time for decisive actions. Ever since we reverted back to democracy in 2008 following her supreme sacrifice, our march onward remains on a roller-coaster. Democratic applecart has been under threat of disruption. Media being not too kind to it, dubious players in the field with umpires itching to raise their finger and terrorists out there to devour us-genuine political leadership has done its bit but has a lot to do more than talking in miles and moving in inches.

Outdated escape routes such as formation of committees of men, women and clerics who can do nothing but as a group decide that nothing can be done-except doling out sermons full of sound and fury signifying nothing - need to be replaced not by a 20-point plan to combat terrorism but a one-point national agenda of mass mobilisation sans religion's involvement in it- to do or die since it has come to be now or never. That could possibly be the only way to pay a befitting tribute to martyred Bibi-a larger than life figure.

Benazir Bhutto had a multifaceted grasp on issues global, matters trivial. She was workaholic. Work and more work, education and more education-were her weapons. Service nothing but service to the people was her motto, empowerment of the less privileged, men, women, children and minorities-was her life-long mission. Rightful place, unshackling the poor and the deprived from the stranglehold of exploiters-was her unfinished agenda. Democracy for her was a means to a larger end-the greatest good of the largest number. Her vision was pluralistic and democratic Pakistan where all its citizens were to be equal, free to practice their religions and the state was to be secular in governance.

That is what Pakistan's founder Quaid-e-Azam wanted. It was clearly manifested in his August 11, 1947 speech in which he was categorical that neither Pakistan would be a theocratic state nor religion shall have anything to do with the business of the state. That was Mr Jinnah's irrevocable ideological commitment.

It is time our civil, judicial and military leaders come out of their bigoted closets and declare their adherence to Quid's vision of Pakistan and not what the clerics force upon them by their blackmail. Surrendering to them would be Talibanisation of Pakistan-a sure recipe for the denouement of the state that was to be a democratic model for the Muslim Ummah. We should show courage and if need be- organise different sort of dharnas other than those for getting into power - to demand to strike down from the statute books- all retrogressive laws- blasphemy included-that divide the society.

It is better late than never-to go after the terrorists. I wish General Musharraf and like had scotched the menace when it raised its head rather leaving their legacy to be confronted now under Army Chief General Raheel Sharif. I wish words of hate vomited from pulpits to dehumanize the society would not have been permitted. I wish killing of Shia, Christians, Ahmadis, Hindus and even Muslims who resist the religious bigotry - had not been allowed to become an epidemic disease.

Benazir Bhutto became a victim of religious extremism for being a lady that carried the torch of freedom, democracy and enlightenment. Nobel laureate Malala Yusufzai was seriously injured for pursing her education as divine obligation while the Peshawar Military School's students had dared to defy the Taliban's oppressive agenda.

There has been a systematic induction of an oppressive way of life that the religious militants believe. It is a tragedy that people like General Musharraf who once tried to masquerade as Pakistan's Kemal Ata Turk failed to protect the lives of the common people. That legacy of a readily available rate card for announcing compensation for the victims of religious terrorism remains in vogue to this day.

One agrees with Bibi's observation that the Taliban had "twisted the values of a great and noble religion and potentially set the hopes and dreams of a better life for Muslims back a generation." Muslims, she believed "became (al-Qaeda's) victims too."

In Islam Jihad meant a personal struggle "to follow the right path," in any field of human endeavour. The extremists had distorted this for fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan in the service of the United States to end up ten years down the road to convert terrorism into a full time business."

Islam's concept of socio-economic equality for all was the most powerful phenomenon that could pose a challenge to any other ideology any time. However, Islam's egalitarian traditions were constantly hijacked by the despotic Muslim rulers/dictators who reduced religion to a tool to consolidate their hold on power.

In order to resurrect the real Islam in the growing global complexities Bhutto had pleaded for ijtihad - the early Islamic tradition of challenge and inquiry to interpret the Holy Quran in relevance to and context of the current era. Her observations in "Reconciliation" are true manifestation of the real spirit of Islam as reflected in the concept of Ijtehad. As a befitting tribute to her we need to reiterate the Quran's message of peace and tolerance and not let it drown in a sea of extremism.

Writer is former longest serving High Commissioner of Pakistan to UK

Pliss to note the comparision between Jinnah and Jesus.. And about how H&D was thrown away by the Baki fauj during about the same time in 1971 ....

EDIT : Sorry, forgot the quote :
http://m.ibnlive.in.com/blogs/wajidsham ... today.html

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 26 Dec 2014 14:01

Re, the Pratap Bhanu Mehta (PBM) article mentioned above, The Swedes have felt compelled to offer a view (probably won't be published):

"India is actually the only possible real friend Pakistan has among the Great Powers." Here is the almost certain response from the Pakistani Media: "Really? You think India is among the Great Powers? ... Do you know that you are barely in control of key regions Kashmir the centre of human rights violations, Maoists controlling about 20% of your total territory, and Hindutva running wild through the extremist government of Modi? Great Power? Think again". Here is the response from the Pakistani military (there is no civilian "government"): "Nothing will move forward until the Kashmir issue is resolved in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people".

Speaking as a keen observer of South Asia, this has been pretty much the Pakistani response since I was born at least, and I'm over 40. So the question is who is delusional here? The Pakistanis? Or your own "intellectual elite" who write this sort of wishful thinking nonsense (exemplified in the last sentence) with a deadening regularity, in the hope that saying and doing the same thing in different ways may elicit a different response the next time. Pakistan is actually quite clear about what it wants, and it has been since its inception: It wants the territory of Kashmir first, and then it will focus on the rest of India. It's people, its leaders, and its military have been saying this for decades too, with deadening regularity. The question is not what you have to do about this (any half-wit can figure that out), but how you are going to do it. Maybe the new government has some new ideas about that.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 26 Dec 2014 14:04

GopiN Saar a link when quoting is always welcome unless it is to some of the unmentionable forums.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pa ... il-2047158
Pakistan security agencies foil terrorists' plan to attack Kot Lakhpat jail

Pakistan's security agencies have foiled a plan of militants to attack Kot Lakhpat Jail where at least 50 death row terrorists including five dreaded one are lodged and arrested two women and a man linked with the plot.

"We have foiled a terrorists' plan and arrested two women and a man from Farid Kot Colony near the Kot Lakhpat Jail," a senior Lahore officer said.

The officials have seized a rocket launcher, uniforms of the security agencies, shoes, guns, bows and arrows, mobile phones and SIMs from their possession yesterday.

Deputy Inspector General Police Haider Ashraf confirmed the arrests of the three terrorists during a raid at a house in Farid Kot Colony. The suspects were taken away to an undisclosed location for interrogation.

According to the sources, the terrorists were planning to attack the Kot Lakhpat Jail and free the militants.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 26 Dec 2014 14:44

That Paki encounter is actually standard. Nothing new or shocking there. There is a constant _denial of reality_ and Pakis tend to fixate on Kashmir - which seems to be their excuse or _escape mechanism_. If not Kashmir it is Jews or USA>
And they consistently demonstrate this - forgetting what is real and somehow think Kashmir issue is the root cause of all problems. They think if the Kashmir issue is resolved, Pak will immdly transform into land of milk, honey and 72 million virgins.

So on this "denial of reality" and "escape mechanism" - it reminded me of something I read in the book "Phantoms in the Brain" from a neuroscientist callled Dr.Vilayanur Ramachandran . He explains that there is a syndrome called Anosognosia . It occurs in patients who have had some recent traumatic events affecting the brain - like a stroke or something which basically paralyses left of right side of the brain. When the right side of the brain is damaged resulting in paralysis of left side of the body, the patient sometimes does not seem to realize or register it. And patients lie blatantly. When Dr.Ramachandran asked one such patient to touch the (the Dr's) nose with hist left hand, he said he has arthritis and hence cannot move his arm. Ramachandran feels that sometimes the brain does not want to confront the existential reality and seeks escape mechanisms.

This thing somehow fits with Pakis. That abomination of a country cant do sh1 but constantly blames Hindus, KAshmir, American, Jews, and the million conspiracy theories for everything and anthing - all that is a escape mechanism. They dont want to confront reality. And that is because of repeated traumatic experiences that have damaged them psychologically. IOW, what I want to say is this - the Pakis are mental.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Dec 2014 15:33

surinder wrote:http://orbala.wordpress.com/2014/12/16/ ... -about-it/

How not to respond to Peshawar School Attach.

This is a liberal facade to the whole rotten system.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Dec 2014 16:07

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/26/the ... rif-jamal/

S: How does JuD recruit?

J: It recruits through families. They have probably recruited upward to 100 babies already. Some people in Pakistan prefer to donate their children instead of money. These newborns are returned to the families, who are then told to make sure they are raised as JuD members. So now the group’s officials will be in touch with the families, continuously instructing them on how to raise their children, all the while working to bring the entire family into their fold. This is how they motivate people. There is a scripted act every time Saeed addresses a crowd. During the speech, a man will suddenly walk up to the stage and hand over his child, who will then of course be returned. I remember once asking Saeed who are these people who give him money. His reply was, "Those who give me their babies also give me money."

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Dec 2014 16:42

A_Gupta wrote:http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/26/the ... rif-jamal/

S: How does JuD recruit?

J: It recruits through families. They have probably recruited upward to 100 babies already. Some people in Pakistan prefer to donate their children instead of money. These newborns are returned to the families, who are then told to make sure they are raised as JuD members. So now the group’s officials will be in touch with the families, continuously instructing them on how to raise their children, all the while working to bring the entire family into their fold. This is how they motivate people. There is a scripted act every time Saeed addresses a crowd. During the speech, a man will suddenly walk up to the stage and hand over his child, who will then of course be returned. I remember once asking Saeed who are these people who give him money. His reply was, "Those who give me their babies also give me money."

Now this is terrorism on an industrial scale, from start to finish, quality control over the whole supply line!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Dec 2014 16:44

Pakistani analysts confused vomit.
They want to do 'something', hurt someone after peshawar.
So the 'wahid islami noo-clear power's' analysts want to nuke and invade afghanistan.

Someone needs to tell them that neither can their army invade afghanistan and expect to win, nor will their hydrogen-sulphide bums work. Its all hot smelly gas...
Mulahiza farmaiye...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Dec 2014 16:47

Paki delusions...
Mushabir Lucman and 'chooha / nimbu pani' rant