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Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 30 Dec 2014 21:10
by shiv
Pakistan is a seething mass of freedom fighters and terrorist groups. All are good at killing. Most are willing to kill Indians, but there are some that in my view may be useful for India. I will list them and state my views. You guys can take the poll.

1. Pakistani army: The oldest, best equipped, richest and worst terrorist group: responsible for massacres of Indians, Hindus in Bangladesh, shias in Gilgit, Baluchis, Pakthuns, Afghans and the odd American/European. This group is useful to USA and Saudi. They will never be of use to India

2. Lashkar e Toiba: Pro army, anti India. They are of no use to india

3. Lashkar e Jhangvi - This is an anti-shia group. No use to India

4. Baluch Liberation Army: These people should be our allies

5. TTP (Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan): These people are anti-India, but they are anti Pakistan army and anti-America. They are cruisin' for a bruisin' - but they could be useful to us. My enemy's enemy can be my friend. There are no permanent friends or enemies. Only interests etc etc

Poll runs for 15 days. Choose up to 3

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 05:09
by rajsunder
Others for me would be any organization that supports removal of durand line and merging NWFP with Afghanistan and any organization that supports sindh freedom.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 16:35
by SSridhar
BLA is the only entity, among those listed, which is not fighting on the basis of religion or sect or an anti-India platform. They are pretty much on their own in their fight since 1948.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 16:45
by Shanmukh
Baluch Liberation Army is least hopeless there, for two reasons.
1) They are fighting for a land that mercifully won't share a border with India.
2) They are not very likely to achieve their objective

Other than that, there is nothing much to like about any of them. If by some miracle Baluch achieve independence, I will make a wager with the people here. Within ten years of independence, these Baluch will also be chanting slogans in favour of Allah and possibly even Pakistan, but definitely against India. Just like Bangladesh. And the same goes for the Kurds, except they will be chanting slogans against Israel, because India does not occupy a big mindshare there.

You can add any Pashtun organisations into the same category, but they will end up anti-India much faster than Baluchi organisations, simply because NWFP has been very mullah-fied.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 16:49
by Atri
All. Although I voted for TTP and BLA. All those who are cleansing pakistan of kufr and making it more and more green is India's ally. that includes Pak army. India should love them. Not all love is soft. Love of a masochist is of different variety. All of the above except perhaps BLA are masochists of a death-cult. All should be "helped" by India accordingly.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 17:13
by shiv
Atri wrote:All. Although I voted for TTP and BLA. All those who are cleansing pakistan of kufr and making it more and more green is India's ally. that includes Pak army. India should love them. Not all love is soft. Love of a masochist is of different variety. All of the above except perhaps BLA are masochists of a death-cult. All should be "helped" by India accordingly.

LOL

But I am less sure about the Pakistan army. It seems to me that the army is split horizontally, with the officer cadre anglicized and supporting the US while pretending to be piously Islamic. This is the RAPE class who do fashion shows and enact Vagina Monologues. But the army rank and file are more the LeT/TTP type. They get nothing from westernization in the name of "modernity"

The officer class have become afraid of ordering their men to do certain things. They will order them to kill Indians gladly, so "by supporting Paki army" if we mean giving that officer class support then that is of no use - the officers and men are united in killing Indians. Any help we give them should aggravate the officer/rank conflict. We need to expose the western connections of the officer class. Who are the relatives of generals who live in the west - the children, the brothers and sisters etc and their business interests; the property they own etc. This information should become public knowledge and be fed to the rank and file.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 17:34
by JE Menon
Interesting poll... Looks like the most of the boys/girls have their heads screwed on right chankiyan (or at least in the same way as mine). After I voted:

Lashkar e Jhangvi 11%
Baluch Liberation Army 46%
TTP 32%

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 18:44
by kish
TTP & BLA are the 2 groups useful for India. Because they directly challenge the 'glue' which holds the state together, i.e paki army. Which ever group does that can become useful for India.

Apart from this 2 other groups can be useful

1) Sipah-e-Muhammad

This now defunct 'shia' militant group at one time had paki army & sunni jihadis on their toes, before paki army broke its back. If Indian intelligence could contact & provide material support to this group. It would be more than useful for India.

2) Lashkar-e-Janghvi

It directly can never be useful to any kufr, let alone India. But indirectly it still does India a favour. Its immediate objective is to cull "Shias", which is useful for India. Because in that Godforsaken Allah pasand country, Shias produce more doctors & engineers. As Atri ji said, if LeJ manages to disenfranchise its Shias, pakisatan will be in permanent "civil war" like condition, which is good for India. :mrgreen:

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 18:55
by vishvak
I think we need to understand that this thread is about 'Pakistan' - in all its meanings. Whether one does 'something' in chanakian way does not matter - hence an exception.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 20:35
by rsingh
India never used terrorism as a tool in foreign policy. We never sided with any terrorist group and we do not endorse any terrorist group ( be it PLA, Taliban,Aurmatmaryar or US thugs). Therefore this thread is uncalled for. JMT

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 21:00
by KJo
shiv wrote:Pakistan is a seething mass of freedom fighters and terrorist groups. All are good at killing. Most are willing to kill Indians, but there are some that in my view may be useful for India. I will list them and state my views. You guys can take the poll.

1. Pakistani army: The oldest, best equipped, richest and worst terrorist group: responsible for massacres of Indians, Hindus in Bangladesh, shias in Gilgit, Baluchis, Pakthuns, Afghans and the odd American/European. This group is useful to USA and Saudi. They will never be of use to India

2. Lashkar e Toiba: Pro army, anti India. They are of no use to india

3. Lashkar e Jhangvi - This is an anti-shia group. No use to India

4. Baluch Liberation Army: These people should be our allies

5. TTP (Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan): These people are anti-India, but they are anti Pakistan army and anti-America. They are cruisin' for a bruisin' - but they could be useful to us. My enemy's enemy can be my friend. There are no permanent friends or enemies. Only interests etc etc

Poll runs for 15 days. Choose up to 3


What about the Sindh groups? There was one fellow who sits in London, forgot his name.

India never used terrorism as a tool in foreign policy. We never sided with any terrorist group and we do not endorse any terrorist group ( be it PLA, Taliban,Aurmatmaryar or US thugs). Therefore this thread is uncalled for. JMT


It;s time we woke up and played the game the big boys play instead of being all bious.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 21:35
by abhik
Useful for what is the pertinent question? If the answer is to push India's agenda on specific issues(like taking back PoK) in pakistan, then none of the terrorist groups are going to be of much use. If the answer is to create mayhem in general then the obvious choice would be the the groups that have the most capacity to create mayhem i.e the Pak Army and the assorted taliban groups.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 31 Dec 2014 23:02
by Shankk
rsingh wrote:India never used terrorism as a tool in foreign policy. We never sided with any terrorist group and we do not endorse any terrorist group ( be it PLA, Taliban,Aurmatmaryar or US thugs). Therefore this thread is uncalled for. JMT


I absolutely agree with this. Although the poll is interesting and made me chuckle it is still against Indian policy.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 01 Jan 2015 01:23
by member_27987
rsingh wrote:India never used terrorism as a tool in foreign policy. We never sided with any terrorist group and we do not endorse any terrorist group ( be it PLA, Taliban,Aurmatmaryar or US thugs). Therefore this thread is uncalled for. JMT


Indeed, INDIA doesn't. However, INDIA cannot be held responsible for non-state actors such as "TTP" and "BLA" bomb the cr@p out of that place.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 01 Jan 2015 06:59
by shiv
One reason for asking "which terrorist groups would be more useful" is simply to draw attention to the fact that blind condemnation of terrorists who do things useful to us is counter productive. Of course we condemn ALL terror, but our own thoughts are subtly moulded by what others do and say.

Pakistan AND the west (who hold all the media power) ignoire deaths of people that the Paki army and the west don't like and they highlight the deaths of those who they support.

So when Paktun or Baluchi families are killed, or when shias are killed there is not much of a hue and cray in Pakistan ir in the west and we Indians, like echo chambers hear nothing that we need to echo. We do not react to the actions of Paki army and LeJ. But when the TTP cause mayhem, the west and Pakistan make a hue and cry and we Indian echo chambers condemn the TTP more than we condemn the Pakistani army. How many posts have been made "fearing" a "Taliban take over" when the Taliban have been busy screwing Pakistan? Are we blind or what?

Holding the attitude that "we have never supported terror" is a statement of patronizing insincerity because we are not neutral. We echo the west and the Pakistani army in selectively condemning what they condemn. This may well be a form of condictioning or colonization. The sooner we grow out of it the better. We need not "support" any group, but let us not commit the error of omission by failing to condemn the Paki army in which we get our knickers in a twist abut TTP. Tarek Fateh is wiser than many of us in this regard

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 01 Jan 2015 07:46
by Shreeman
None.

Just stay out of the moral and diplomatic support business. Instead, develop human intelligence in pakistan, and build (and not the one lane jugaad that washes every time somone relieves themselves) like crazy in the border regions with those resources. The figurative green grass must be visible, often movedmowed, and fed to cows in full view for bakistanis to realize their folly. No armed group would do that for you.

As far as existing groups go, none should be summarily destroyed the way pakistan is doing now. International law and human rights must be protected. I am surprised no one has approached the hague re. protection of the vulnerable.

You support those who are rooting to remove the root causes of "pakistan". And those dont exist today.

edit -- moved, mowed; tomato, potato.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 01 Jan 2015 09:35
by Pratyush
I will vote for None of the above option. For a simple reason, that an armed Muslim group will sooner rather then later will revert to total war against kafirs. Unless it can be converted into the Kafir way of life.

That being the case none will ever be useful to us.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 02 Jan 2015 11:01
by devesh
I hope that a commoner Indian who happens to catch this poll takes some time to scroll down and realize the bent of the thread. or they will be left with delusions.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 02 Jan 2015 19:47
by Altair
I voted for BLA and TTP. Both are extremely enthu about killing Paki Army. BLA even wants a seperate country so I will fund them if I have to. TTP on the other hand is an extremely violent group and must be handled with extreme prejudice. As long as they score regularly and finish with top marks supporting them is not an issue.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 03 Jan 2015 12:20
by ramana
BLA & TTP are regional subnational movements that challenge Pakjabi dominance. In an Islamic country rebellions also need to put on religious cloak.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 17:44
by Karan Dixit
I would not call BLA a terrorist group because it fights Pakistan army and does not engage in killing civilians. Baloch people definitely need some help in their plight against tyranny of Pakistan army.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 18:27
by Akshay Kapoor
Shiv,

Good initiative. I have voted for BLP and TTP. We should actively engage in helping create a separate Baluchistan and Sindh. That should be the endgame. Separate nations with land borders will have utility in keeping Paki army fragmented and dissipating.

Sipah e Muhammad is interesting. Any other shia organizations ? What about a Christian organization ?

Your analysis of officer class vs troops is not completely correct in that the officers are not as religious and jihadist. You are right in their hatred of Indians of course. They have become progressively more Jihadi and religious over the last decade. When my dad's generation served their counterparts in Pak army were more westernized, would drink etc. When my generation started getting inducted into CI Ops in the valley in the 90s we heard and perceived more and more Jihadi bent. And now the youngsters tell me that Pak army officers have completely become Jihadis. This is similar to the growth in religious sentiment we see in Paki's in the west. Its almost like a tipping point. Fascinating.


Also what about Nawaz Sharief and the Army ? Can't we turn some politicos and Generals by digging dirt on them and threatening to expose them ? Pretty much what you propose in terms of digging their connections etc.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 18:32
by Akshay Kapoor
This is Offensive Defence.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 19:29
by Rahul M
in the long term PA might be pak's biggest enemy and our best asset that we never controlled. ;)

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 19:47
by deejay
I agree Rahul M. The Pak army is already fractured with ISI having a mind of its own. Now to see some of their jernails getting a goat with fellow jernails. This will only need some doubts on who ate more 'fat' of the last halaled cheeni goat (deal) and who missed out. This I am sure can be done by some well timed leaks of the jernails accounts in Swiss mountains or one of those in Luxemburg.

I am just waiting for the day a private army of one jernail runs in to the private army of another. More the paki armies so much more popcorn that will be consumed globally. Surely, our western neighbors will do at least this much for the corn farmers across the globe. I hear that the corn farmers have agreed for a 10% goat fat for all the jernails who oblige.

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 19:48
by Akshay Kapoor
One of the ways of controlling parts of it is subverting some of their senior officers who have children abroad. Have you read Inferno by Dan Brown ? He depicts an organization called the consortium (apparently not fictional) that stages various scenarios. So what kind of dirt/info would a Pak General fear the most ?

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 19:50
by Akshay Kapoor
Rahul,

can you tell me how I can pm you and other moderators ?

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 04 Jan 2015 19:52
by Akshay Kapoor
shiv wrote:One reason for asking "which terrorist groups would be more useful" is simply to draw attention to the fact that blind condemnation of terrorists who do things useful to us is counter productive. Of course we condemn ALL terror, but our own thoughts are subtly moulded by what others do and say.

Pakistan AND the west (who hold all the media power) ignoire deaths of people that the Paki army and the west don't like and they highlight the deaths of those who they support.

So when Paktun or Baluchi families are killed, or when shias are killed there is not much of a hue and cray in Pakistan ir in the west and we Indians, like echo chambers hear nothing that we need to echo. We do not react to the actions of Paki army and LeJ. But when the TTP cause mayhem, the west and Pakistan make a hue and cry and we Indian echo chambers condemn the TTP more than we condemn the Pakistani army. How many posts have been made "fearing" a "Taliban take over" when the Taliban have been busy screwing Pakistan? Are we blind or what?

Holding the attitude that "we have never supported terror" is a statement of patronizing insincerity because we are not neutral. We echo the west and the Pakistani army in selectively condemning what they condemn. This may well be a form of condictioning or colonization. The sooner we grow out of it the better. We need not "support" any group, but let us not commit the error of omission by failing to condemn the Paki army in which we get our knickers in a twist abut TTP. Tarek Fateh is wiser than many of us in this regard


+ 100

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 05 Jan 2015 23:25
by Rahul M
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Rahul,

can you tell me how I can pm you and other moderators ?

PM is still a mod-only facility.

you can reach us at gentlemanDOTcadetATjeemaleDOTqaum

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 06 Jan 2015 06:07
by shiv
Akshay Kapoor wrote:So what kind of dirt/info would a Pak General fear the most ?

Personally getting his ass singed.

Years ago on BRF someone posted an article about two Paki RAPE women who were invited to witness Paki "war games" near the Indian border. They needed to take a leak and naturally found no toilets. Looking around, they discovered that the Paki army jernails had top class luxury caravans with toilet and all to live in during the war games. It was only rank and file who had to rough it out.

Still later even rank and file don't have to fight. That is done by indoctrinated LeT jihadis from madrassas manned by the sons of women who breed like rabbits and contribute one son to "jihad" probably based on the principle of the following hadith
There once was a woman called Nat
Who had triplets Pat, Mat and Tat
'twas fun during the breedin'
but hell during the feedin'
for there was no tit for Tat


That is why we seem to have one terror group per madrassa. with the Abbottabad "PMA Kakul" Madrassa being only one of them

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 09 Jan 2015 22:40
by Ravi Karumanchiri
I regret the wording of the title of this thread, as I am keen to define the Baluchis fighting for Baluchistan as a liberation movement; resisting the genocidal occupation of Pakistan.

I voted BLA and "Other", hoping someone could name a corrolary of the BLA in Sindh. These two pieces of..... I should say, Pakistan-occupied Baluchistan and Pakistan-occupied Sindh; are ripe for wiggling-free from the ties that are binding them.

As for the other, named groups querried about in this poll -- the very notion of supporting them is offensive, and far beneath the dignity of India (if I may say so).

Re: Which Paki "terrorist" groups would be useful for India?

Posted: 10 Jan 2015 07:26
by shiv
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:I regret the wording of the title of this thread, as I am keen to define the Baluchis fighting for Baluchistan as a liberation movement; resisting the genocidal occupation of Pakistan.


I agree with this and I had a problem with the title - given that there is a restriction in the length of thread title precluding a more precise title like "Which armed fighting groups of Pakistan are useful for India"

In the end I decided to put the word terrorist in quotes for what it is worth.