Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2015

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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2015

Postby Rupesh » 01 Feb 2015 02:56

Link to last page of previous thread.

The following links are background material on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:

Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/publications/public ... 6-34.html#

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

A modest proposal from the Brigadier:

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2002/03/landesman.htm

"We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities—Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people......."


Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

Religion as the Foundation of a Nation: The Making and Unmaking of Pakistan - P.K. Upadhyay, IDSA
It probes the religious and sectarian fault-lines in Pakistan in depth to determine their impact on the future of Pakistan.
http://idsa.in/system/files/monograph36.pdf

Ms. Christine Fair's exposition on Pakistan military, society et al. A Must see.
Fighting to the End: Pakistan Army's Way of War

Shia-killing in Pakistan: Background and Predictions - A blog by Omar Ali


PAKISTAN and GENOCIDE:

Image Scan of article on 1971 East Pakistan Genocide by Antony Mascarenhas, Former Asst. Editor, Morning News, Karachi in Sunday Times, London, June 13, 1971

Text scan of the above article on 1971 Genocide

Bangladesh Genocide Archive

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Lashkar-e-Taiba: Past Operations and Future Prospects, Stephen Tankel, April 2011
New America Foundation
http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica. ... _LeT_0.pdf


Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

Pakistani Military Officers' Links with Jihadist Organizations
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

Putting Our Children in Line of Fire - The Nation, January 27, 2013
The above is an admission by Pakistan Army's Top General that it was the Pakistani Army at Kargil, not the mujahideen, and Musharraf was the Culprit

Debate between a Taliban Scholar and a Paki Army Officer


PAKISTAN and NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION:

Pakistani nuclear scientist's accounts tell of Chinese proliferation - R. Jeffrey Smith and Joby Warrick, Washington Post, Nov 13, 2009

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)

MISCELLANEOUS

UNSC Resolutions on Kashmir

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup


Christine Fair :Ten fictions that pakistani defense officials love to peddle

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________


Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities


see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

________________________________________________________________________

Why Did Pakistan's Spy Chief Make a Secret Trip to China?
Quote:
Pasha's China trip has been interpreted by some as a tacit act of defiance—a reminder to his American counterparts that the Pakistanis can always look east to their “all-weather” friend across the Himalayas rather than bend the knee to the will of the U.S.

But it also may be a sign of China's growing disquiet with Pakistan. Another top-ranking Pakistani military officer, Lt. Gen Wahid Arshad, had already conducted a considerable tour of China just weeks ago in a bid to improve ties. A few analysts have suggested that Pasha's trip — couched in vague terms about building a “broad-based strategic dialogue” — may have been less a visit and more of a summons.


Quote:
Chinese officials claimed the attacks in Kashgar were authored by the shadowy East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a jihadist organization of mostly ethnic Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim minority that comprises the majority in the far-western Chinese region of Xinjiang. China routinely invokes the specter of the terrorist threat when cracking down on dissent in the restive region. Yet disturbances there tend to be triggered more often by social discontent — many Uighurs chafe at state policies they deem discriminatory and marginalizing — than militant connivance. Pasha's presence in Beijing may mark Beijing's continued efforts to root out Uighur dissidents and sympathizers beyond China's borders, as it has already done in Kazakhstan.

Youtube video: Bilatakalluf with Tahif Gora: Tarek Fateh dissects with Pakjabi society and shows how its war-impotent Army loots the common Pakistani (Jan 13, 2012)

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Rupesh » 01 Feb 2015 03:12

China declares Pakistan solid strategic partner

BEIJING/RAWALPINDI: The most trusted, strongest and reliable ally of Islamabad, China on Sunday termed Pakistan a solid strategic partner.

The reaffirmation of the decades-long and all-weather partnership came amid Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Raheel Sharif’s official visit to China, during which he called on China’s Vice Chairman Central Military Commission, Gen Fan Changlong in Beijing. During the unprecedented meeting held in a warmth and cordial atmosphere on Sunday morning, Gen Fan termed Pakistan-China as solid strategic partners, most important neighbours and iron brothers :lol: , ISPR Director General Gen Asim Saleem Bajwa tweeted on social media.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Feb 2015 03:38

Madrassa Mathematics.
December 2012

1. Pakistan's NAB (National Accountability Bureau) issues a press release
http://www.nab.gov.pk/PRESS/NEW.ASP?653
NAB Chairman holds a press conference.
http://www.dawn.com/news/771042/pakista ... airman-nab
Corruption costs Pakistan Rs 5-7 billion a day.

2. Next day NAB chairman ups the estimate
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... -NAB-chief
Corruption now costs Pakistan Rs 10-12 billion a day.

3. But that is also a mis-estimate.
http://www.awamiweb.com/pakistan-losses ... 59759.html
Corruption now costs Pakistan Rs 20 billion a day.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Tuvaluan » 01 Feb 2015 05:16

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/jan/31/pakistan-india-share-venice-biennale-pavilion

Another "let's tongue the pakis for the sake of peace" episode of Artsy-fartsy bought to you Wellcome Corporation and the Gujral foundation. Try out Wellcome's new onion-scented vaseline with your tallest and deepest friend.

Looks like this is funded by the wife of the nephew of the stupid, rotten turd IK Gujral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feroze_Gujral

Mohit is the son of the renowned painter Satish Gujral who is the elder brother of former Prime Minister of India, I.K. Gujral.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 01 Feb 2015 05:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Gagan » 01 Feb 2015 05:26


Their friendship is Smoother than Vaseline
AoA

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Feb 2015 05:34

Our [wo]man from Tuvalu overlooked this part from the Wiki page:

Mohit Gujral who is currently Vice-Chairman of DLF, India’s largest real estate company. Mohit is the son of the renowned painter Satish Gujral who is the elder brother of former Prime Minister of India, I.K. Gujral. Feroze and Mohit have two children – a son, Armaan, and a daughter, Alaiia, both currently studying in the US.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 06:02

It is the nostalgia of some which has caused us so much grief in our Pakistan policy.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Gagan » 01 Feb 2015 06:12

Hari Seldon wrote:Pak flag commands a rare respect in East Punjab.
Image
Jo Bole Soh Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal

Wah! This is the true Nostalgia that the mango people of the REAL Punjab have for Pakistan

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Gagan » 01 Feb 2015 06:45

Samir Bokhari ka rona dhona. 400% sad gaye saare paki

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Tuvaluan » 01 Feb 2015 07:29

matrimc wrote:
Mohit Gujral who is currently Vice-Chairman of DLF,


So this is DLF is the one connected to Vadra, right? All these tools seem to be one happy family connected to the INC -- surely personal interests are responsible for excessive lovey-doveyness with Pakis by the INC crowd and their cronies in the bureaucracy..no wonder Pakistan policy has been such a mess for decades.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 08:37

^^^ Large numbers of immigrants from pakistan were settled in periphery of delhi at the time of partition. So many, they changed the nature of the place. And like any other immigrant set they survived because they were resourceful enough to escape, and have flourished in every sphere. This includes local and national politics. This is still only the second generation post partition. The first was too close.

There is a general friendliness towards the place left behind, despite the riots (I never understood this, may have to do with Delhi population not really being all that accepting of their presence). Over time, this has rationalized into track 2, 3, 4..

They will never run out of people or influence. The only solution is above board public discussion and not back room/channel deals.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby ramana » 01 Feb 2015 09:32

Gagan, Continue to post the Urdu videos from Bakistan for that is the language they are in. However please give a short description out of courtesy for the members.

Thanks for the understanding

ramana

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 09:48

Gagan wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:Pak flag commands a rare respect in East Punjab.
Image
Jo Bole Soh Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal

Wah! This is the true Nostalgia that the mango people of the REAL Punjab have for Pakistan


In panjab, this is respect. Usual treatment would be shoe polish or worse. But this is not the case in the educated immigrants (ex elites of lahore) irrespective of religion.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SBajwa » 01 Feb 2015 10:04

I doubt if anybody respects Bakis in Punjab. It is only the people like MMS, Gujral, etc who are affected by Stockholm syndrome due to their narrow escape in 1947.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 10:56

I really like the Sardar sahebs in the photo above, very determined, with obvious delight and a sense of complete satisfaction writ on their face. I particularly like the two gentlemen who stamp their feet on an up-side down Pakistani flag. The gentleman on the left foreground suggests 'Bring 'em on' while the one on the right foregound seems to be plotting the next move. Very satisfying, sir, very.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Melwyn » 01 Feb 2015 11:38

A rather long but good analysis of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan.
One paragraph from the article that strikes me the most is the following:

The question of whether Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not a priority for the (superficially) Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite. Their Muslim identity distinguished them from Hindus and especially in North India, it was mixed with a certain anti-Indian racism, the assumption being that they themselves were Afghans, Turks, Persians, or even Arabs, and were superior to the locals. This sense of superiority was racial and extended to poorer Muslims who were clearly local converts. One consequence of this attitude being the fact that North Indian Muslims who became prosperous frequently acquired retroactive Turko-Afghan origins. But foreshadowing the problems that would come later as the ideology of Pakistan matured, a Shia-Sunni distinction did arise when Jinnah died; while his sister arranged a hurried Shia funeral inside the house, the state arranged a larger Sunni funeral (led by an anti-shia Sunni cleric)


http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... l?spref=tw

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Feb 2015 11:54

amitkv wrote:A rather long but good analysis of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan.
One paragraph from the article that strikes me the most is the following:

The question of whether Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not a priority for the (superficially) Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite. Their Muslim identity distinguished them from Hindus and especially in North India, it was mixed with a certain anti-Indian racism, the assumption being that they themselves were Afghans, Turks, Persians, or even Arabs, and were superior to the locals. This sense of superiority was racial and extended to poorer Muslims who were clearly local converts. One consequence of this attitude being the fact that North Indian Muslims who became prosperous frequently acquired retroactive Turko-Afghan origins. But foreshadowing the problems that would come later as the ideology of Pakistan matured, a Shia-Sunni distinction did arise when Jinnah died; while his sister arranged a hurried Shia funeral inside the house, the state arranged a larger Sunni funeral (led by an anti-shia Sunni cleric)


http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... l?spref=tw

Omar Ali is always worth a read. A smart paki and one of the good ones whose writings always add value. A good resource for BRF mujahids and shagirds.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby shiv » 01 Feb 2015 12:03

amitkv wrote:A rather long but good analysis of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan.
One paragraph from the article that strikes me the most is the following:

The question of whether Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not a priority for the (superficially) Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite. Their Muslim identity distinguished them from Hindus and especially in North India, it was mixed with a certain anti-Indian racism, the assumption being that they themselves were Afghans, Turks, Persians, or even Arabs, and were superior to the locals. This sense of superiority was racial and extended to poorer Muslims who were clearly local converts. One consequence of this attitude being the fact that North Indian Muslims who became prosperous frequently acquired retroactive Turko-Afghan origins. But foreshadowing the problems that would come later as the ideology of Pakistan matured, a Shia-Sunni distinction did arise when Jinnah died; while his sister arranged a hurried Shia funeral inside the house, the state arranged a larger Sunni funeral (led by an anti-shia Sunni cleric)


http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... l?spref=tw

Thanks for posting. Worth reading in full including many of the links from there

This link is worthy of a place in the first post of all shitistan threads. I have put a request to Imam Modullah to issue an appropriate fatwa

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 12:17

Shiv, done.

amitkv, thanks for posting. Remarkable analysis.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2015 12:25

SBajwa wrote:I doubt if anybody respects Bakis in Punjab. It is only the people like MMS, Gujral, etc who are affected by Stockholm syndrome due to their narrow escape in 1947.


the badals seem to have started a love affair with the shariff's in the paki punjab.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 12:44

chetak wrote:
SBajwa wrote:I doubt if anybody respects Bakis in Punjab. It is only the people like MMS, Gujral, etc who are affected by Stockholm syndrome due to their narrow escape in 1947.


the badals seem to have started a love affair with the shariff's in the paki punjab.


If you take the time to look, the lahore connection emerges quickly. Leadership in punjab also (like congress leaders in delhi) ends up being involved in the khalistan issue on one side or another. This is why anyone with remote knowledge of punjab would excuse the lahor-educated lot and their one degree of separation folks from being rational towards bakistan. In another 10 years, these links will sever.

Folks not from Lahore dont have any interest in the ex-western portion. And this is despite nankana sahib. Sikhism has a religious heirarchy, but the book is benovelent. So the religious egos, corruption, and other issues dont distract the ordinary follower. Religious leaders are politicians in another garb. No different than any other religion.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby menon s » 01 Feb 2015 12:50

Shias are leaving Pakistan in huge numbers, as one said " it is better be alive in exile, than be a splatter on the wall in pakistan"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby shiv » 01 Feb 2015 13:38

SSridhar wrote:Shiv, done.

amitkv, thanks for posting. Remarkable analysis.

May the fragance of a thousand lactating goats be upon you.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby shravan » 01 Feb 2015 14:03

Karachi Jan 2015: 108 killed, include 18 policemen, 5 doctors, 2 Rangers personnel

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby member_22733 » 01 Feb 2015 14:05

Gagan wrote:Samir Bokhari ka rona dhona. 400% sad gaye saare paki


Bliss to watch Djinnahs bredictions come true after 26:30. Bakistan is a bery powarfool "junction" country and Amrika is afraid of Russia-India-China-AAAND-Bakistan axis. :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby member_22733 » 01 Feb 2015 14:09

shiv wrote:Thanks for posting. Worth reading in full including many of the links from there

This link is worthy of a place in the first post of all shitistan threads. I have put a request to Imam Modullah to issue an appropriate fatwa


I went through that site (idle saturday... and I have a boring life). The man is 100% Islamic apologist. That article does do justice in that it gives a prism to view life through the eyes of someone who considers himself a progressive "unIslamic and moderate" Muslim.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby partha » 01 Feb 2015 14:30

LokeshC wrote:
Gagan wrote:Samir Bokhari ka rona dhona. 400% sad gaye saare paki


Bliss to watch Djinnahs bredictions come true after 26:30. Bakistan is a bery powarfool "junction" country and Amrika is afraid of Russia-India-China-AAAND-Bakistan axis. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I'm reminded of a line from Andaz Apna Apna - "saale dus dus hazaar ke suit pehente hain, akal das paise ke bhi nahin hain" :lol:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby member_22733 » 01 Feb 2015 14:44

partha wrote:I'm reminded of a line from Andaz Apna Apna - "saale dus dus hazaar ke suit pehente hain, akal das paise ke bhi nahin hain" :lol:



These are the ex-Kernail and Jernail worthies that run Bakistan's strategic comoonity. My neighbors kindergartener may have a better grasp of geopolitics. Truly a nation of delusional narcissistic fools, each and every one of them, from the suited-booted to the unwashed.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby pankajs » 01 Feb 2015 14:51

Dusra Rukh (25th January 2015) Obama Ka Bar Bar Pakistan Say Sotela Rawaiya Ku



This video has folks from the Bak foreign policy circles. Nothing new here but watch how pained the Baki host is that Bak was not mentioned at all during the bilat. between US and India. She says in her introduction "Aaisa visit jis me Pakistan ka jikr bhi nahi hau aur expectation jaroor thi ki Pakistan ka jikr kiya jayee ga" i.e A visit were there was no mention of Pakistan and we had expectation that Pakistan would be mentioned. One gent, I think Kasuri saab, keeps insisting that Bak must have been mentioned.

Not finding a mention in the presser was a big blow to Bak echandeeee wonleee. I also remember another video or perhaps an article where someone mentioned some random event and then concluded by saying something to the effect "Pakistan has managed to sneak into the Indo-US frame". As if that is the highest achievement that one can manage! But that is how the bakis think. For them, finding mention alongside India is their ticket to glory even if the reference is highly negative.

They are basically trolls as far as we are concerned. By engage with them we feed their sense of importance. By engage with them at the highest levels we feed them even more. We provide them with the opportunity to claim equality wrt India. They use this in turn to increase their profile with other countries. When we promote *Indo-Pak*<whatever> we lend them our profile and make it an equal-equal. Do the Baki like *AfPak"? I have yet to come across a Baki who talks glowingly of *AfPak* infact most hate it. By keeping our engagement with the Bakis to the level that we have with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, will immediately bring them down a couple of notches.

To top it all, when we plead with other countries to rein in the Bakis, we allow the third country to play their own politics between us. We undermine our own position in the world by displaying our inability to deal with the Bakis. By our very act, we invite 3rd party mediation while vehemently opposing it in words. It is also an open invitation to unsolicited advice and an equal-equal from these 3rd parties wrt the Bakis. By showing resolve to solve our Bak problem on our own instead of running to the international community we will remove the 3rd party to a large extent.
Last edited by pankajs on 01 Feb 2015 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Shia Problem

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 15:01

Just to add to Omar Ali's blog on the Shia. . .

There are a few other important Shia Pakistanis, apart from the Great Leader himself, who shaped early Pakistan and its present day decline. They are, Aga Khan, Raja of Mehmudabad and M.A.Ispahani.

Aga Khan is the leader of the Sevener sect (Ismailis) and he led the (in)famous Mussalman Delegation to wait upon Viceroy Minto in Simla in c. 1906 and impress upon him the need to consider the Muslims separately in any political arrangement that the British were contemplating to introduce in India. Specifically, he demanded a separate electorate in the proposed local elections. This laid the foundation for separation (as much as Curzon's partition of Bengal). The Northern Areas (Gilgit-Baltistan) is where a significant number of his followers live (estimate 60% of population at one point of time). Gen. Zia's policy and the business opportunities due to the opening of the Karakoram Highway (KKH) led to a large-scale influx of Punjabi Sunnis and the altered demography led to tensions, accentuated by the agenda of the mother of all Pakistani terrorist organizations, Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP). Similar has been the case in Parachinar where the minority Shi'a Pashtuns are being overwhelmed by transplanted Sunnis from elsewhere.

The Raja of Mehmudabad was not only a generous fund-giver for Pakistan but he eventually reconciled the rift between Jama'at-e-Islami's Abu Ala al Mawdudi (who called Jinnah as Kafir-e-Azam) and the Great Leader that led to the eventual migration of Mawdudi to Pakistan (great riddance for India for which the Raja must be praised by us) and the rest is history.

Since, most Pakistanis identified themselves in the negative as “not being Indians”, it gave them a lot of heartburn to digest the fact of an ancestry and heritage in common with the enemy Indians. Nothing exemplifies this more than the speech given by Pakistan’s first Ambassador to the US, Mirza Abol Hassan Ispahani, when he presented his credentials to the US President. Said he, “We are, Mr. President, a new country in name, but old in history, tradition and culture. Ours is an ancient race, akin to your own. Our forefathers, like yours, came from the steppes of Central Asia and the Caucasian mountains. In one of the great movements, which from time to time, changed the history of mankind, our people moved South and East and set up an empire in the fabled Indies. After several centuries, renowned throughout the world for their glory and culture, the sceptre passed, less than a century ago, from our hands, into those of the British. Now again, our people stand free and independent in the territories where, once more, our national flag flies high”.

Of course, there was also Iskander Mirza, the great grandson of the Shi'a Mir Jaffar, who oversaw the 1947 tribal invasion of J&K and then the war with India. He has the dubious distinction, apart from being a Mir Jaffari, of imposing the first of the many martial laws in Pakistan.

Though Gen. Zia sharply precipitated the Shi'a-Sunni problem, the fact is that in C. 1953 itself, as part of the anti-Ahmedi riots led by Mawdudi et al, the apostasy by the Shi'a was raised by the ulema before the Munir Commission set up to inquire the riots. Again, the same ulema took up with Gen Ayub Khan, the new President, the issue of putting restrictions on the Shi'a community, a proposal that he rejected because he was more secure and secular at that point of time (Later, he came close to JI for political reasons, as he became less secure)

Of course, Gen. Zia tried to introduce Saudi-drafted and Saudi-compliant shariat upon Pakistanis which led to a protest by the Shia who demanded that they be allowed to follow their Jaffaria system. As they won in the end, Zia himself faced much blowback from Deobandi clerics for toning down in the face of united Shi'a opposition. The Shi'a also had another great grouse against Gen. Zia. In the newly created Federal Shariat Court, there was not a single Shi'a judge.

The Shi'a created their own terrorist organization to fight for Fiqah-e-Jaffaria (Shia legal system) against the Sunni Fiqh in 1983 under the the leadership of a Turi Shia of Parachinar, Allama Ariful Hussaini. Allama Hussaini was murdered in Peshawar in Aug 1988 widely believed to be by the ISI under Zia's order. A serving army officer, Majid Raza Gillani, had participated in this “operation.” Gen. Zia himself was killed within a fortnight in an air-crash. The then NWFP Governor Lt. Gen. Fazle Haq was also killed in 1991 as he was suspected of complicity in the murder of Allama Hussaini.

Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, Maulana Ziaur Rehman Farooqi, Maulana Eesarul Haq Qasmi and Maulana Azam Tariq, all known for their anti-Shia views, had created Sipah-e-Sahaba-Pakistan(SSP) by 1985. It is widely believed that they were assisted by the Pakistani intelligence agencies. Iraq and Saudi Arabia were also supposed to have funded this setup. Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi (of Jhang) was very clear about his goal, which was to convert Pakistan into a 100% Sunni Deobandi state. Maulana Jhangvi was assassinated in 1990, probably by the Shi'a TNFJ, after his virulent anti-Khomeini actions. The SSP in turn murdered Sadiq Gunji, the Iranian Consul of Lahore in Dec. 1990. Another Iranian diplomat was killed in Multan in 1997. The Iranian Cultural centre in Lahore was bombed in Jan. 1997 killing 7 Iranian diplomats. Meanwhile, one co-founder of SSP, Maulana Azam Tariq concentrated on liquidating the Shi'a in Parachinar (Kurram agency) where he was assassinated in 2003.

Maulana Jhangvi's assassination led to a split in SSP and the breakaway group called itself Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ). It wants to perpetuate the ideals of the slain leader, Maulana Jhangvi. In Quetta, where there is a significant Shi'a population, the LeJ runs an SMS campaign asking people to report to a certain mobile number as soon as they spot a Hazara Shi'a. It is widely believed that the Pakistani Army is pushing LeJ into Balochistan as a ‘first line force’ to fight Baloch separatism, especially after the Supreme Court under CJP Iftikhar Chaudhry came down heavily on it in the 'hundreds of missing persons case', and the LeJ, along with that objective, is also engaging in Shi’a killing.

Omar Ali refers to the passage of "Objectives resolution" and how only one Muslim member, the communist Iftikharuddin opposed it. That gentleman called the resolution as a "travesty of proper Islamic constitution and a real democracy". It is difficult to understand what he meant by that. The fact was that amendments proposed by non-Muslim minorities to safeguard their interests were rejected by Liaquat Ali Khan saying that they would make it a mockery of "true Islamic State" that Pakistan was about to become ! In any case, the Great Secular leader, Mohammed Ali Jinnah. had already told the Sind Bar Association, which he addressed in January 1948, that the new Constitution of Pakistan would be based on shariat to "make Pakistan a truly great Islamic state". A year later and within six months of the passing away of Jinnah, the 'Objectives Resolution' was passed.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Feb 2015 15:48

pankajs wrote:Not finding a mention in the presser was a big blow to Bak echandeeee wonleee. I also remember another video or perhaps an article where someone mentioned some random event and then concluded by saying something to the effect "Pakistan has managed to sneak into the Indo-US frame". As if that is the highest achievement that one can manage! But that is how the bakis think. For them, finding mention alongside India is their ticket to glory even if the reference is highly negative.

They are basically trolls as far as we are concerned. By engage with them we feed their sense of importance. By engage with them at the highest levels we feed them even more. We provide them with the opportunity to claim equality wrt India. They use this in turn to increase their profile with other countries. When we promote *Indo-Pak*<whatever> we lend them our profile and make it an equal-equal. Do the Baki like *AfPak"? I have yet to come across a Baki who talks glowingly of *AfPak* infact most hate it. By keeping our engagement with the Bakis to the level that we have with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, will immediately bring them down a couple of notches.


Suggestion - let's move the STFUP and Bakistan threads to the GDF forum. The Strategy Thread should have a locked thread with only the customary first post.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Feb 2015 16:01

amitkv wrote:A rather long but good analysis of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan.
....
http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... l?spref=tw


Most of these mullahs, as well as the Jamat e Islami, had strongly opposed Jinnah’s project on the logical grounds that no one as ignorant of Islam as Jinnah could possibly create an Islamic state. But they soon realized that this pork-eating, whisky drinking Shia had created the perfect laboratory for their Islamist project and they were quick to move in and try to take ownership.


Counter-quote:

"Another cooperative effort between the Jama‘at and Muslim League came about at the request of Mawdudi following the Jama‘at’s formation. It pertained to a division of opinion between the Muslim League and the Jama‘at over the ultimate shape of the state of Pakistan. Soon after the formation of the Jama‘at in 1941, Qamaru’ddin Khan, the secretary-general of the Jama‘at, was dispatched to Delhi to meet with Jinnah. Through the good offices of Raja Mahmudabad—a deeply religious and generous patron of the League—a meeting was arranged between Qamaru’ddin Khan and Jinnah at the latter’s residence. During the meeting, which lasted for forty-five minutes, Qamaru’ddin Khan outlined the Jama‘at’s political platform and enjoined Jinnah to commit the League to the Islamic state. Jinnah responded astutely that he saw no incompatibility between the positions of the Muslim League and the Jama‘at, but that the rapid pace at which the events were unfolding did not permit the League to stop at that point simply to define the nature of the future Muslim state: “I will continue to strive for the cause of a separate Muslim state, and you do your services in this regard; our efforts need not be mutually exclusive.” Then he added, “I seek to secure the land for the mosque; once that land belongs to us, then we can decide on how to build the mosque.” The metaphor of the mosque no doubt greatly pleased Qamaru’ddin Khan, who interpreted it as an assurance that the future state would be Islamic. Jinnah, however, cautioned Qamaru’ddin Khan that the achievement of an independent Muslim state took precedence over the “purification of souls.”"


The Vanguard of the Islamic Revolution
The Jama‘at-i Islami of Pakistan
Seyed Vali Reza Nasr
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS
Berkeley · Los Angeles · London
© 1994 The Regents of the University of California

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 16:11

A_Gupta wrote:Counter-quote:
" . . . Through the good offices of Raja Mahmudabad—a deeply religious and generous patron of the League—a meeting was arranged between Qamaru’ddin Khan and Jinnah at the latter’s residence. . . . ”"


The Vanguard of the Islamic Revolution
The Jama‘at-i Islami of Pakistan
Seyed Vali Reza Nasr


Thanks. That was what I referred to in my post above.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Narad » 01 Feb 2015 16:17

SS garu, thanks for your wonderful insight on the matter. My 72 pranams to you.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby arminius » 01 Feb 2015 16:17

amitkv wrote:A rather long but good analysis of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan.
One paragraph from the article that strikes me the most is the following:

The question of whether Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not a priority for the (superficially) Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite. Their Muslim identity distinguished them from Hindus and especially in North India, it was mixed with a certain anti-Indian racism, the assumption being that they themselves were Afghans, Turks, Persians, or even Arabs, and were superior to the locals. This sense of superiority was racial and extended to poorer Muslims who were clearly local converts. One consequence of this attitude being the fact that North Indian Muslims who became prosperous frequently acquired retroactive Turko-Afghan origins. But foreshadowing the problems that would come later as the ideology of Pakistan matured, a Shia-Sunni distinction did arise when Jinnah died; while his sister arranged a hurried Shia funeral inside the house, the state arranged a larger Sunni funeral (led by an anti-shia Sunni cleric)


http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... l?spref=tw


This may be OT but I was wondering is there any article which describes the "racial" composition of ashrafs of the subcontinent. I am not sure how much turko-persian lineage (despite their claims) they have. I know in western UP apart from some villages which are populated by self-styled pathans and mughals (don't have any mongloid features or resemblance), muslims are pre-dominantly natives who converted.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby SSridhar » 01 Feb 2015 16:18

A_Gupta wrote:Suggestion - let's move the STFUP and Bakistan threads to the GDF forum. The Strategy Thread should have a locked thread with only the customary first post.

Is there a specific reason why you say that? Though I agree that with the comical scenario developing in Pakistan, this thread increasingly assumes similar overtones, the discussion here needs to be read by so many lurkers, especially Pakistanis, who would otherwise be denied that pleasure because of a lack of Login credentials. GDF needs a login.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby shiv » 01 Feb 2015 16:19

LokeshC wrote:I went through that site (idle saturday... and I have a boring life). The man is 100% Islamic apologist. That article does do justice in that it gives a prism to view life through the eyes of someone who considers himself a progressive "unIslamic and moderate" Muslim.

He serves to remove a blind spot we have - i.e inability to see the shia/sunni split in this case, (never mind that other blind spot we tend to harbour - i.e. an inability to see the Catholic-Protestant split.

For psecs - it does not matter. But when it comes to those who want to take a stand I think the nuances are "useful inside information". To an extent - the way we handle these differences could be important. An analogy is the ill treatment of Sikhs in the US after 9-11 calling them towel-heads - by people who could not tell the difference.

I now look around me in India and see a huge community of Shias. These people are safe because they live in India. I do admit that Shias have been as bloody and rapacious as the worst Sunni in the past in India, but I think the entire ummah, including Indian Muslims need to learn a lesson about Islam - and the author of that blog brings some clarity. You compare the behaviour of Muslims n Pakistan with the rampant beheading of Hindus and destruction of Hindu temples and then ask why Muslims are safe in India and not in Pakistan today - you get a lesson in Islam.

I had another idea some days ago. We discussed in the WU and other threads that "History" is what is written. As it conveniently turns out - mofos like Auragazeb and his cursed ancestors maintained written records of Hindus murdered and temples destroyed. We need to have a ready-reference list of that somewhere. The Congi, pseudosecular and fake liberal diksukers who sidelined and forgot Hindu murders are now failing to see what the religion of peace is doing in Pakistan. It is not Secularism that keeps Muslims safe in India. It is the Hindu majority. The cowards whom they could not convert.

India is safe for Muslims because of Hindus.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2015 16:20

A_Gupta wrote:
pankajs wrote:Not finding a mention in the presser was a big blow to Bak echandeeee wonleee. I also remember another video or perhaps an article where someone mentioned some random event and then concluded by saying something to the effect "Pakistan has managed to sneak into the Indo-US frame". As if that is the highest achievement that one can manage! But that is how the bakis think. For them, finding mention alongside India is their ticket to glory even if the reference is highly negative.

They are basically trolls as far as we are concerned. By engage with them we feed their sense of importance. By engage with them at the highest levels we feed them even more. We provide them with the opportunity to claim equality wrt India. They use this in turn to increase their profile with other countries. When we promote *Indo-Pak*<whatever> we lend them our profile and make it an equal-equal. Do the Baki like *AfPak"? I have yet to come across a Baki who talks glowingly of *AfPak* infact most hate it. By keeping our engagement with the Bakis to the level that we have with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, will immediately bring them down a couple of notches.


Suggestion - let's move the STFUP and Bakistan threads to the GDF forum. The Strategy Thread should have a locked thread with only the customary first post.


Arun,

This is a very poorly thought out suggestion. Long long ago, in the before time, this thread graced the top of all threads and caused much heartburn, repeated hacking of BR main site, and interestingly (if I recall right) pressure from various channels. This resulted in the removal of stretegic threads from the visible BR site. It may also have bern a trigger for separation of BR vs BRF. Old timers can correct if any of this is over-broad. Avatars have come and gone, my memory is also not what it once was.

It is the participation effort that carries the true value. In nearly 17? years, generations have come and gone but never has this thread generated anything but critical commentary of the related events. That in itself is bedrock of the intelkectual approach favored here or censure, propaganda, or worse by every other avenur.

Yes, its mirth and choice language have resulted in many a difference. But compared to say a typical facebook or youtube commentary, this is shakespeare.

I dont think you realize the value of consistent messaging -- which no sticky post would ever provide. It would be bereft of new content, lose relevence quicky, and would not be read.

Unless pakistan disappears, a dehyphenated critique of the happennings, dispassionately presented and argued by individuals of every view, is irreplaceable.

ps -- As Sridhar points out, GDF is for nukkad activities.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby shiv » 01 Feb 2015 16:30

arminius wrote:This may be OT but I was wondering is there any article which describes the "racial" composition of ashrafs of the subcontinent. I am not sure how much turko-persian lineage (despite their claims) they have. I know in western UP apart from some villages which are populated by self-styled pathans and mughals (don't have any mongloid features or resemblance), muslims are pre-dominantly natives who converted.

Not OT.

Many Indian Muslims today are the children of captured Hindu women who were made slaves to minor and major Muslim rulers and remained in their harems. Their ba$tard children were brought up as Muslims and joined the mainstream. So whether there was conversion or not is moot - mostly it was not even forced conversion, it was worse than that - it was simply having children from slave women. In this connection a genetic study of Indian Muslims (including Bangladesh and shitistan) may be useful - especially because the male lineage (Y linked chromosomes) can be compared with the female lineage (Mitochondrial DNA). It is likely that ALL mitochondrial DNA in all Indian Muslims will be found to be of ancient Indian origin. Pseudosecularism will prevent this basic genetic gyan from leaking out.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Feb 2015 17:01

Gagan wrote:Samir Bokhari ka rona dhona. 400% sad gaye saare paki


Highlights - whatever caught my attention -

50,000 civilians and 7000 soldiers - sacrificed for what? For Americans to woo India?

Salman Ghani (former TV host), Brig. Farukh Hamid, and international traveler Farukh Sohail Goindi along with Samir Bokhari (current TV host) form the elite wailing panel.

Hai, hai, from 1960 to today, PL480, F16, aid, sanctions, the long list of American betrayals!

Americans want India as a global partner, but Hindustan's condition is so bad that all the security arrangements for Obama have been done by Americans. Security arrangements, personnel, equipment, vehicles - all American.

If America looks after its own interests only, then why can't Pakistan do the same? Why is there no Pakistani leader who can talk to Americans as equals? Oh, Nawaz Sharif did so once, regarding nuclear testing.

America is an imperialist power whose policy is engagement with leading economic and military powers to avoid clashes with them. America is merely engaging with India but Pakistani military/intelligence are the ones who sit with them even today, to make policy, conduct operations. Indians think Pakistanis are very clever in their foreign policy.

But isn't Indian diplomacy so much better? Yes, Pakistan's foreign office is lousy. Indians were/are engaged with Soviet Union, Russia, China, America, even with Turkey, where Tata vehicles are sold.

But Americans are very clever, intelligent, cunning. Pakistan is America's frontline state against India. Anecdote with Kofi Annan - Kofi Annan tells Pakistani that America wants to keep Kashmir on the UN agenda.

Kugelman's article (see 72'ed thread) is cited that American writers are criticizing Obama for trying to have better ties with India at the cost of compromising Pakistan's interests.

Military diplomacy - Pakistan's Army Chief going to China, head-of-state-like reception in 10 Downing Street is an answer.

We fight the war, US has only strategic dialog with us, but a strategic partnership with India. America wants India to be the dominating regional power.

US-Israel-India nexus is one emerging nexus and Pakistan-China-possibly Russia is the competing power. Joint Pakistan-Russia military exercise is a major breakthrough.

But can India serve American interests if it keeps violating LoC, etc., has an obsession with JuD, LeT? Americans are saying on JuD, LeT, they are with the Indians.

Obama in his 2008 election campaign brought up Kashmir, and after that, never again.

(Not quite sure) I think they say that America was defeated in Afghanistan and is leaving the burden of defeat on Pakistan. Pakistan has to stand on its own feet. Pakistan may be small, but is a nuclear power. With the emerging Pakistan-China-Russia axis, Pakistan need not fear anything.

Political diplomacy has also been successful - India is a zero in Afghanistan because of it.

America is worried about the new axis. Americans have collapsed the Russian economy by making oil cheap. America is really worried about a China-Russia-India-Pakistan axis.

Russians wooed Pakistan, not the other way around.

The Syrian war is decisive for the future of the Middle East and South Asia. Pakistanis are lucky people, having ideal geostrategic location at the junction of South Asia, Central Asia and the Middle East.

America was not defeated in Afghanistan, that is our emotional thinking. America's real defeat is in the rise of China, Russia, India. (I think they say or imply that the Track II Agra agreement on J&K was sabotaged by America.)

Pakistan will never accept Indian hegemony, relations only on the basis of equality.

China's economic engagement with India is rapidly increasing, but not at the cost of the genuine strategic relationship with Pakistan. Could anyone a few years ago have imagined China in Gwadar?

Bhutto was not roti-kapda-makaan politician, he was the 1000 years war - eat grass politician.

Pakistan can never be a friend to India, but in foreign affairs there is no permanent friendship or enmity.

Apparently Piloo Mody and Z.A. Bhutto studied in the same place? At graduation, Bhutto told Mody, next time I meet you, I will be Prime Minister of my country. In 1972(?), Piloo Mody was in the reception line for Bhutto, and Bhutto reminded him of this. That is what is called a visionary leader.

Only those leaders will succeed who think of tomorrow and not of today.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 01 Feb 2015 17:12, edited 2 times in total.


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