Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2015

[member_23370]

Don't agree with Shiv ji. IA can always sanitize a small area near the IB and create no fly zone where these refugees can be housed. Anyone trying to enter must be put down brutality. Any intake of pakis must be offset by reclaiming more and more of that land. Land upto Indus must belong with India.

[shiv]

Don't agree with Shiv ji. IA can always sanitize a small area near the IB and create no fly zone where these refugees can be housed. Anyone trying to enter must be put down brutality. Any intake of pakis must be offset by reclaiming more and more of that land. Land upto Indus must belong with India.

Bheeshma I have no issues with such ideas. All I am saying is that we will have to be prepared for them not to work as planned. In other words - what is plan B? I see a dozen plan "A"s, but no plan B.

[member_23370]

Plan B should be and hopefully is to mine and fence the entire border with anti personnel mines. Deploy snipers and UAV's to monitor the borders and keep the filth out. I still prefer A where IA is proactive and captures territory.

[Vayutuvan]

Shivji: puck a few plan As and as {Plan A} and the rest can go to {plan B}

{} is for set.

[Neela]

What Iran and Afgahnistan aren't good enough for Pakis?
I mean , it will not be very difficult to convince refugee Pakis that evil Hindus rip fetuses out & rape women. They are brought up with that hate. What would you do if Pakis accuse us of instigating terror by letting in refugees.
India is not a muslim country. And Pakis are from a Muslim country & would prefer to pick a Muslim country and freely practice their religion. Iran & Afghanistan are exatcly what they are looking for. A highway is being built. Directions are simple. Walk due South on the highway and turn West to head into direction of Afghanistan or Iran.
So, IOW, Pakis must look West. Their idealogical mentors, cultural heritage, geographical paradise all lie to the West.

[SSridhar]

Pakistan Makes it Clear: No MFN -Dinakar Peri, The Hindu

Pakistan took a hard line position on trade relations with India, saying all bilateral trade was loaded in India’s favour and seeking to draw a link between India’s cancellation of talks and trade ties. “What we have seen is, as the bilateral trade increased, we have also witnessed hardening of India’s position on Jammu & Kashmir as evidenced in the cancellation of foreign secretary level talks in Islamabad which was scheduled in August last year,” Pakistan High Commissioner Abdul Basit said at a conference in Delhi on Monday.

Claiming that trade is heavily in favour of India, despite India having granted Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to Pakistan long back, Mr. Basit indicated that granting MFN status to India was not on the cards as there were strong apprehensions about it in Pakistan.

“If Pakistan were to extend MFN status or Non Discriminatory Market Access status, we do not know what will happen to our economy,” he commented.

As the bigger market, Mr. Basit urged India to take more unilateral initiatives in terms of opening up trade and relaxing norms for import of Pakistani goods to India.

Reiterating that Kashmir remains the core issue between the two nations, Mr. Basit stressed that solving it is paramount and focus on soft issues like trade and culture wouldn’t yield results beyond a point.

The High Commissioner was in Pakistan last week and met the Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharif.

[K Mehta]

Basiturd and shortazz azziz are establishment people, you will see them barking when any movement towards normalization from badmash is even thought of. The fact that they are there in their positions, is a reflection of political weakness of bad mash.

[pankajs]

http://www.firstpost.com/world/barack-o ... 76541.html
Barack Obama proposes over $1 bn civil, military aid to Pakistan

US President Barack Obama on Tuesday proposed more than $1 billion in civilian and military aid to Pakistan, describing it as a "strategically important nation"

The key elements of the proposed budget include strengthening Pakistani military for its fight against extremism, safety of nuclear installation, stability in Afghanistan, economic development and improvement in ties with India.

[Suraj]

Pakistan Makes it Clear: No MFN -Dinakar Peri, The Hindu

They seem to be under the impression that this is a negotiation trump card. In reality, they're sinking deeper into debt. To quote another source:
No MFN to India without measures: Pak envoy

Bilateral trade between India and Pakistan reached $2.70 billion last financial year from $2.60 billion in 2012-13. In 2013-14, exports to Pakistan stood at $2.27 billion, up 10 per cent compared to $2.06 billion in 2012-13. However, imports from Pakistan declined by 21.22 per cent at $426.88 million in 2013-14 as against $541.87 million, according to data by the ministry of commerce and industry.

They're not negotiating from a position of strength here. They've never been, and each passing year makes their position worse.

[pankajs]

IMHO, they use the MFN to show defiance wrt India. Also, anyone who RE-brands India as *Most Favored* will be cutlet at least politically within Bakistan.

Not that we should accept that as a valid reason for what should have been beyond politics. They dangle the possibility as a *carrot*, which it is NOT, for India moving on other issues. It is their international obligation under WTO.

We should put out a bland and boiler plate statement stressing the *international* obligation of Bakistan but nothing more.

[sum]

As the bigger market, Mr. Basit urged India to take more unilateral initiatives in terms of opening up trade and relaxing norms for import of Pakistani goods to India.

Same sentence ( bigger brother/bigger market etc) keeps getting repeated, whether for trade or for Aman Ki Asha or for handing over Kashmir etc etc

[pankajs]

^^
This is only time we should refer to the *Most Favored Nation* status granted to Bakistan unilaterally. Stress the *Most Favored* along with whatever language that they have used.

[uddu]

Silently revoke the MFN granted to Pakistan..Its been for long this Tamasha is going on.

[pankajs]

Well ... now that it has been granted ... let is remain. Not worth the stink they will raise. IIRC, it is managed by having a negative list, so keep the list pruned to let only items that we *need* to come into India. It does no harm but allows us to push back on the *do more* line by showcasing a *significant unilateral concession*.

Our statement could be as follows

By granting the *Most Favored* nation status we have already extended *significant unilateral concessions* to Bakistan. It is up to them to use this opportunity to increase trade with India. We also urge Bakistan to grant MFN status to India in line with their international obligation under WTO.

[chetak]

As the bigger market, Mr. Basit urged India to take more unilateral initiatives in terms of opening up trade and relaxing norms for import of Pakistani goods to India.

Same sentence ( bigger brother/bigger market etc) keeps getting repeated, whether for trade or for Aman Ki Asha or for handing over Kashmir etc etc

The defining trade mark of the paki. Always wanting something for nothing. Always thinking that the yindoos can be fooled over and over again.

[shiv]

Shivji: puck a few plan As and as {Plan A} and the rest can go to {plan B}

{} is for set.

I wasn't actually intending to do anything of the sort, but I see it as a binary problem. Either we get refugees in or we don't. Even if a few get in they are in so what we do with them needs to be planned out for sure and I think that will need a lot of pre-planning.

It is not possible to seal such a long border. Asking the army to shoot and kill unarmed civilians who are trying to cross for humanitarian reasons will not happen with the Indian army. "Sanitizing", "mining" etc are like "religion of peace' and "Muslims don't kill Muslims" - meaningless words.

If push comes to shove refugees bloody well will get in - mark my words. In fact this may happen first on the Bangladesh side. Question is how many we can handle and how many we can take. 1000? 100,000? 2 million.
I suspect that two million would require a crisis on the scale of Bangladesh which would allow us to intervene in Pakistan, so I think that a possible figure of up to 1 million can happen. I state this as a warning. Not as an invitation. It's like sending men to Mars without a toilet. They will crap somewhere - sooner or later. If the shit hits the fan in shitland - we will definitely have a refugee problem at multiple points. If we have groups of 1000 or more refugees trying to get in at 500 different points along the border whose army is going to be tasked with stopping them?

This is not my own conjecture - these are statements that have been made by government bureaucrats of the home ministry on and off. Modi or no Modi this is a possibility that we have to deliberately game out. Refugees can create a huge humanitarian crisis for us and we will be left looking like idiots if we have made grandiose plans to stop anyone from coming and still several hundred thousand are leaking through because of the enormous number trying to get in.

[shiv]

A friend of mine who is part of a think tank and has connections with some Intel types says there is a credible Taliban threat to Xi Jinping's life at the parade due to be held n Pakistan. It could even be from the air.

[gakakkad]

VERY INTERESTING

The weird duel between Russia and Pakistan over the corpse of a hanged terrorist

Relations between Pakistan and Russia may be on the upswing, but that didn't prevent a wild diplomatic showdown in late December, when Pakistan executed a Russian citizen.

what's with the Russo-Baaki bhai-bhai ? baaki neuj-paper and now even unkil papers are portraying a taller-deeper relationship between baaki and Russia? one visit from russian defence min and it becomes a sweeter than honey relationship..

[Shreeman]

A friend of mine who is part of a think tank and has connections with some Intel types says there is a credible Taliban threat to Xi Jinping's life at the parade due to be held n Pakistan. It could even be from the air.

Yes, but there are eleven of them.

Can the taliban they tell them apart? Will china even send the most important one like they sent to India?

My ninth cousin, sixteen times removed says the air threat is over blown due to CAP, helicopter and UCAV patrols over the parade. A crash, however, in this crowded airspace is a distinct possibility.

[pankajs]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 107850.cms
Grenades hurled at Pakistan school

KARACHI: Militants today hurled hand grenades at a school in Pakistan's largest city but no loss of life or property occurred, officials said.

At least six militants on motorbikes targeted a school in the Gulshan-e-Iqbal area of Karachi and escaped.

[RSoami]

The military parade may not have been conducted because the jernail wouldnt want their mujahids to salute the 10 percenti.
Last time, they saluted was to Mushrat.
So. But a cheeni coming deserves a salute. He arent no Pakistani civilian. He is a Cheeni pork eating civilian. GUBOing is fine there.

[A_Gupta]

ASEAN versus Pakistan
Population: 608 million versus 200 million
Economy: GDP about 1.3 times India versus 0.1 times India
Annual trade with India: $80 billion versus $2 billion
China-phobia: High versus tallest mountain fliend
Hindu-friendliness: Considerable versus "death to cunning bania/bahmin kafir".
Indian diaspora: Considerable versus "what will we do with Paki refugees?"
Trade growth: Indian exports of $280 billion/year by 2025 versus "no letter of credit".
Ports of call for Indian Navy: some & increasing versus zero, nada, zilch (even Pakistani navy ships are not safe in Pakistani harbors).

I know you all have a nostalgia for kicking Pakistan in the butt, but follow PM Modiji and look East. Don't be the Manmohan Singhs of BRF with nostalgia for Lahorites and Slumbadis. Move to the ASEAN thread!

I agree that things are mostly normal in ASEAN and so are "boring". But change is often difficult, and there is much to learn about ASEAN countries.

"Be the change you want to see."



PS: the Indologist Dominic Wujastyk used to have a web-page with an icon that was a map of India. However instead of oriented in the usual north-south way, it was oriented with east on the top. According to him, this was the natural orientation of ancient Indians, just like the north-on-the-top maps of today are "natural".

Indian rejuvenation lies in its ties with the East.

[SSridhar]

what's with the Russo-Baaki bhai-bhai ?

That's the transitive closure effect. Paki-Cheen, Cheen-Russi and so Paki-Russi

[Peregrine]

India is the only country hindus have. Why should india allow muslims from other countries to settle. Let them find land in 50 plus other muslim countries to live. India is already overflowing with more than 1.2 billion people and all these muslims want to come. Only hindus, sikhs, buddists, jains, and indian origin athiests should be allowed.

The problem is more likely to be a practical one and an emotional response will likely not work in that way

Imagine a flood in Pakistan and a cholera epidemic combined with a series of attacks on Hindus and Sikhs. What the Indian side may see across the fence is a huge crowd of people - mostly women, children and elderly begging to get across. People dying - dead bodies being abandoned and vultures flying about. There will be no guarantee that the crowd has only Hindus and Sikhs. There may be others - equally suffering from dehydration, hunger and disease.

These people cannot be sprayed with machine gun fire. At some stage a gap will have to be opened. Once the gap is opened - that will become "the thin end of the wedge". Inevitably Hindus and Sikhs will be followed by Christians, Ahmedis and Shias as well as a sizable number of Sunis and at least a few Islamist agents passing off as refugees. Remember that poobah taught that it is fine to discard all Islamic principles to survive but after gaining strength stick a danda up the back side of the people who you struck a deal with.

So such refugees will have to be housed right near the border in camps as occurred during the Bangladesh crisis. Those camps cant be permanent but they sure will be long term. And then something will have to be done with those people and you can be sure that a large proportion will not go back. Charitable Hindu and Sikh organizations may take charge of Hindus and Sikhs. How can you stop charitable Indian Muslim organizations from taking in Muslims?

For such reasons - I think "preparation" for the worst case is to ensure that the religion of refugees - especially Muslim or other Semitic can never be used against Hindus again no matter what their poobah or holy book says. That will have to be a bottom line forever. This requires internal restructuring within India as much as anything else. Secularism does not mean having your culture and beliefs raped and then pretending it never happened or acting as if it was always your fault or those of your specific ancestors.

shiv Ji :

Just a thought.

Provide Temporary refuge to ALL. The Christians and Zoroastrians will opt for Australia, Britain, Canada and USA. Fine.

The Muslims can be SENT BACK to The Land of the Pure and Home of the Terrorist.

All Buddhists, Hindus, Jains and Sikhs will be granted Asylum due to the RELIGIOUS PROSECUTION of these Religions in the Land of the Pure and Home of the Terrorists.

The reason for the Returned with Thanks is that they have Fifty and More Islamic Countries. Why try to migrate to a Country which is Secular as Islam is not compatible with secularism?

ISLAM AND SECULARISM – Pseudo Secular the Late Asghar Ali Engineer

Islam is declared to be incompatible with secularism because in a secular state there is no place for divine laws, and secular laws are unacceptable to Islam. Also it is believed that in Islam religion and politics cannot be separated. On these grounds secularism is totally rejected by orthodox Muslims. They also think that secularism is atheistic, and atheism has no place whatsoever in Islam. Islam strongly emphasises faith in Allah. These are some of the grounds which make orthodox Muslims uneasy with the very word secularism. Islam emphasises life hereafter and secularism means only those matters which pertain to this world. There is no place for the world hereafter as far as secular philosophy is concerned.

Cheers

[SSridhar]

Where Borders Bleed - OpEd, DT
Excerpt

Rajiv Dogra, India’s former consul general to Karachi, has written a compelling account of the more than six decades old conflict between Pakistan and India. The seasoned former diplomat provides a firsthand account of the fractious relations between thOne would have expected the experienced foreign service officer to avoid speculation and be more factual especially while discussing the sensitive topic of cross-border terrorism. The intricate art of diplomacy entails sticking to facts and presenting concrete logic. Unfortunately, Rajiv Dogra gives in to the temptation of taking a swipe at Pakistan generally and, more specifically, Prime Minister (PM) Nawaz Sharif. He makes the startling disclosure that Mian Nawaz Sharif not only knew about the 1993 Mumbai serial blasts in advance but had also actually given his approval for them. This claim negates Pakistan’s long-standing position that terror is the work of non-state actors.

Recalling a meeting he had with a former Pakistan Supreme Court (SC) judge in 1994 on the French Chancery’s premises in Karachi, Rajiv Dogra charges the then PM Sharif of having advance knowledge of the Mumbai serial blasts. “I had just walked into the splendid garden, when an eminent former judge of the Pakistani Supreme Court shook my hands and said quickly, but sotto voce, ‘The blasts in Bombay were done with the approval of PM Nawaz Sharif.’”

When the “stunned” author asked how he knew this, the former judge is quoted as saying, “A sitting judge of the Supreme Court, who should know, told me.”? Dogra claims that he had “no reason to doubt a man of his eminence”, as the former judge had a “sterling reputation” and it was out of question that such a man would make a comment on the basis of “half-baked information”.

The erudite scholar also debunks suggestions that Pakistani politicians do not have a say in vital strategic issues concerning India, and the ISI and army drive the hardline agenda against India. Dogra has also gone on to claim that Sharif knew Pakistani soldiers were occupying Kargil heights when he welcomed then Indian PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who made the historic Delhi-Lahore bus ride. Rajiv Dogra has also blamed the US for the spread of terrorism. He construes that “America must bear some responsibility for the spread of terrorism in the world.” He asserts that it was the massive infusion of arms and money into Pakistan by the US from 1979 that led to Pakistan becoming a vast repository of weapons for jihadis against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.e two countries . . .

[Brad Goodman]

Once people are inside borders. Kangress pseudo pseculars and AAP kind of snakes will easily get them ration cards and add them to voters list. Then it is impossible to deport them. Best is to create safe zones within paki lands and house them on their side of IB. Air drop supplies and shoot anyone trying to cross border

[Tuvaluan]

The military parade may not have been conducted because the jernail wouldnt want their mujahids to salute the 10 percenti.
Last time, they saluted was to Mushrat.

No, the past few years the army openly claimed it was due to "security" reasons -- was stated as much in all paki media. Anyway, Chinese President ji wangling or whatever his name is should definitely go to the event and experience all the surprises in store for him from his tallest and deepest friend.

[Paul]

They should start arming villages in west India with Bolt action rifles to start with. VDCs in Jammu have done good work in fighting off JEM/LET thugs who were coming at night to commit massacres. Village dogs are the best AWACS system giving warning of impending threats.

[vishvak]

http://www.firstpost.com/world/barack-o ... 76541.html
Barack Obama proposes over $1 bn civil, military aid to Pakistan

US President Barack Obama on Tuesday proposed more than $1 billion in civilian and military aid to Pakistan, describing it as a "strategically important nation"

The key elements of the proposed budget include strengthening Pakistani military for its fight against extremism, safety of nuclear installation, stability in Afghanistan, economic development and improvement in ties with India.

No advice to paki munna about secularism mentioned in paki constitution, if any?

It seems powers that be follow a 2-point policy:
(1) If secularism is mentioned in constitution of secular country, keep on propping up exclusivists around while preaching secularism to secular people.
(2) If constitution supports exclusivist ideology, give freebies & support and then cover their terrorist strikes, and even wars, against secular people.

[pankajs]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/editorial/ ... al-dynamic
Regional dynamic

There is little doubt that what we are witnessing is the beginnings of the realisation of Washington’s desire to see India emerge on the world stage as a great power, with the US not so hidden agenda interred in this to build India as a counterweight to China. However, the regional dynamic cannot be reduced to such simplicities. India seeks cooperation in the security and economic fields from and with China. Nor does New Delhi wish to alienate its old friend Russia by too close a flirtation with Washington. Despite the ringing declaration by the Obama administration of a ‘pivot’ to the Asia-Pacific region following its retreat from West Asia, there is little doubt that the 21st century will be, if not an ‘Asian century’, at least a time when Asia’s fate will be decided by the countries in this region rather than by a far away ‘godfather’. India may seek strategic and economic ties with the US, but not at the expense of its friends Russia and China. The latter too would not want to abandon India’s friendship and thereby throw it irreversibly into Washington’s lap. A quadrilateral, nuanced diplomatic minuet therefore amongst Washington, New Delhi, Beijing and Moscow is the most likely scenario for the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately, in the midst of this rapidly changing regional scenario, Pakistan’s foreign policy seems entrenched, if not paralysed, in its desire, on the one hand, for parity with India in Washington’s eyes, and on the other in its fond hope that the US will nudge India towards a resolution of the Kashmir bleeding wound. Islamabad may be contemplating expanding security ties to Beijing and Moscow as a counter to the so-called Indo-US axis, but it should be aware that in today’s world, no country, and certainly not a world power, would put all its eggs in one (precarious) basket at the expense of its interests and potentialities in its relations with other countries in the region. In other words neither the US, Russia or China are willing to play the Pakistan-India zero-sum game. They will maintain and develop relations with Pakistan as far as their interests dictate, but will probably more strongly maintain and develop relations with India with an eye to its future potential. Pakistan then remains yesterday’s friend, India tomorrow’s. Unless Islamabad wakes up to the new regional dynamic playing out before our eyes, it may find itself left behind in the new regional relationships architecture.

[akashganga]

...

For such reasons - I think "preparation" for the worst case is to ensure that the religion of refugees - especially Muslim or other Semitic can never be used against Hindus again no matter what their poobah or holy book says. That will have to be a bottom line forever. This requires internal restructuring within India as much as anything else. Secularism does not mean having your culture and beliefs raped and then pretending it never happened or acting as if it was always your fault or those of your specific ancestors.

Shivji, There is no way it is possible to ""preparation" for the worst case is to ensure that the religion of refugees - especially Muslim or other Semitic can never be used against Hindus again no matter what their poobah or holy book says.". Muslims are controlled from the land of allah and there is no local leadership. The arabs are as fanatical about spreading their religion around the world as was their religion founder Mo. Similar is the case with other semitic religion christianity. This has a stronger and much smarter leadership in europe and also in americas.

[member_23692]

We do not want any muslims, even refugees.

If we want settlers for captured territories, let them be Hindu. If we are too weak to manage it militarily, diplomatically and in other ways, then let us settle poor Indian Muslims there, by providing them incentives.

No, we do not want any more muslims from anywhere, anywhere near our borders, even on the other side of it....period.

Thank you. ( I mean, no thank you.)

[A_Gupta]

You invite 1, they invite 11. 11-1=10. 10:1 maintained.

Well, they invited the President Xi (Eleven) Jinping, but they could have invited the Premier Li (Fifty One) Keqiang. I suppose they are not feeling confident enough about 50:1.

[shiv]

Muslims are controlled from the land of allah and there is no local leadership. The arabs are as fanatical about spreading their religion around the world as was their religion founder Mo. Similar is the case with other semitic religion christianity. This has a stronger and much smarter leadership in europe and also in americas.

What about Hindus who have been taught to think that they were in error and everyone else is loving and peaceful. Should we not spread the good word about Aurangzeb building temples etc?

"Preparation" is to remove the veil that has been placed over Indian eyes about what was done in india. You do know that 30,000 temples were destroyed? How many Indians know that? Were you taught that in History? You learned about Aurangzeb didn't you? Did they teach you how he had the Vishwanath temple in Varanasi destroyed? How Nalanda was destroyed? Everyone knows that bad bad Hindus destroyed one friggin mosque - I won't even name it I am sure you know. Unless we make all out efforts to tell the truth about our own history things will not get better.

In India there is an unspoken assumption among sickularists that if Hindus know the truth about what was done in the past they will simply massacre Muslims. This is untrue and unfair. Hindus will not do that - although they are getting angry at the secular lies. Healing can come only by truth and reconciliation and that will strengthen the country against "refugees" trying to spread the violence of the religion of peace.

In fact - Pakistan has tried hard to provoke Hindu Muslim conflict in India to try and make Indian Muslims revolt against India. I don;t know why they told lies that Muslims can't be Muslims in India. Pakis are truly stupid. They should have told the truth - available in thousands of Farsi records of the murder, enslavement and temple destruction in India. That would have provoked communal conflict like no other if they had done in from 1947. But they were too stupid - or they were also in denial and did not know that Islamic kings did that. After all Pakis too are mostly descendants of Hindu women who were enslaved and put in harems to serve Islmic kings or ministers.They have been taught to believe that they "ruled" india. In fact the truth was Muslim kings raped India and raped Pakis female ancestors. No one wants to admit that - but the truth must come out. At least Indians should know their true history without the fog, lies and denial. Only that can protect us against a future occupation by murderers who come in as refugees.

It does not matter whether Saudi Arapia or Somaila is the capital for Pakis or anyone else

[Anujan]

The Basit fella has applied lahori logic and argues that as trade with India has gotten better, India's position on JK has hardened. Nobody questioned his claim. This is just devious on his part. As trade with US has improved, India US relationship has improved. As trade with China has improved, India-China relationship has improved to a level where we can keep the unpleasantness down. India-Pak trade is ~3 billion. India-US trade is ~25 billion and India china trade is ~40 billion. Where does Pak really figure in the trade scheme of things?

On the other hand what is really happening is this: Pakistan has only 2 real leverages against India. (1) Terrorism and (2) Emotion. What you are seeing in India-Pak relationship are two trends which negate both.

1. Terrorism is no longer "fashionable". West used to look at terror attacks in India and write it off as "phreedom struggle". They did it for Kandahar hijacking, Terrorists followed the same modus operandi for twin towers. They did it for train attacks, terrorists did the same for british bombing, they did it for Mumbai, and mass urban attacks with hostage taking happened in Paris. What hasnt happened yet is serial blasts like Mumbai 93 or attacks from the sea like Mumbai. Everyone is now going pakistan in their pants wondering when they are next. So the usual "Moral, political, diplomatic support" does not hold water. There is a saying in tam: You know what a toothache is only after you get it. Now the west knows what ideological terrorism is. On top of that various "good" terrorists in Pakistan are becoming "bad", wanting to establish their rule inside Pakistan itself. So Pakis are having trouble deploying terror effectively.

2. The second trend is that for a long time we had a series of PMs and Cabinet ministers who were born pre-partition and fondly recalled their time in Lahore and India-Pakistan bhai bhai bonhomie nonsense. Modi was born in 50, full 3 years after independence and partition. Anyone younger than 70 has no memories of lahore now. In 10 years time, most people with fond memories of Lahore would have died out. This trend is likely to continue as younger people assume power and/or people from the south of the vindhyas assume power. Then the equation becomes one of calculation and not emotional arguments about samosas from Lahore.

I still believe that it is in everyone's interests if India and Pakistan can co-exist in peace. From Pakistan's point of view, that can happen only if JK is handed over. From India's point of view that is unacceptable. The reason India's position is "hardening" is because both terror and emotion are losing their leverage. So now it comes down to give & take in other "normal" issues. If Pakistan can offer peace and trade then maybe India can offer free travel and investments and easy border crossing in JK. If Pakistan has nothing to offer, India has nothing to offer either. Then what is this complaint about India not offering anything? Remember that it is Pakistan which wants to change the status quo. India is pretty okay with what exists now.

Sooner or later Pakis are going to realize that their terror leverage is eroding. What happens next is anyone's guess.

[akashganga]

Muslims are controlled from the land of allah and there is no local leadership. The arabs are as fanatical about spreading their religion around the world as was their religion founder Mo. Similar is the case with other semitic religion christianity. This has a stronger and much smarter leadership in europe and also in americas.

What about Hindus who have been taught to think that they were in error and everyone else is loving and peaceful. Should we not spread the good word about Aurangzeb building temples etc?

"Preparation" is to remove the veil that has been placed over Indian eyes about what was done in india. You do know that 30,000 temples were destroyed? How many Indians know that? Were you taught that in History? You learned about Aurangzeb didn't you? Did they teach you how he had the Vishwanath temple in Varanasi destroyed? How Nalanda was destroyed? Everyone knows that bad bad Hindus destroyed one friggin mosque - I won't even name it I am sure you know. Unless we make all out efforts to tell the truth about our own history things will not get better.

In India there is an unspoken assumption among sickularists that if Hindus know the truth about what was done in the past they will simply massacre Muslims. This is untrue and unfair. Hindus will not do that - although they are getting angry at the secular lies. Healing can come only by truth and reconciliation and that will strengthen the country against "refugees" trying to spread the violence of the religion of peace.

In fact - Pakistan has tried hard to provoke Hindu Muslim conflict in India to try and make Indian Muslims revolt against India. I don;t know why they told lies that Muslims can't be Muslims in India. Pakis are truly stupid. They should have told the truth - available in thousands of Farsi records of the murder, enslavement and temple destruction in India. That would have provoked communal conflict like no other if they had done in from 1947. But they were too stupid - or they were also in denial and did not know that Islamic kings did that. After all Pakis too are mostly descendants of Hindu women who were enslaved and put in harems to serve Islmic kings or ministers.They have been taught to believe that they "ruled" india. In fact the truth was Muslim kings raped India and raped Pakis female ancestors. No one wants to admit that - but the truth must come out. At least Indians should know their true history without the fog, lies and denial. Only that can protect us against a future occupation by murderers who come in as refugees.

It does not matter whether Saudi Arapia or Somaila is the capital for Pakis or anyone else

Shivji, I hope truth comes out but I am skeptical. For the truth to come out there has to be reformation in islamic society. Indian muslims cannot reform on their own. The only way this can happen is if the original muslims, the arabs of arabian peninsula reform, admit their wrong doings, apologize,etc. This is an impossible task. The only way to spread the truth about islamic imperialism of india is to speak this truth everywhere, and use the freedom of speech which islamists use to hear the bitter truth. By the way there is one and only leader of pakis and all other non-arab muslims, which is the present day saudi arabia keepers of their most sacred sites.

[Tuvaluan]

The Bureaucrats in New Delhi will be first ones to stop any such dissemination of knowledge -- this IAS/IFS crowd were the ones that ensured that the Indians were lied to for a very long time -- they continue to do so even today. This influential crowd that has its grubby little fingers on mass media and public education will make sure that any such dissemination is promptly labeled as hate mongering and islamophobic, and get their friends in the "secular" english and international media to repeat that lie.

[shiv]

akashganga the truth needs to be known by Indians. Screw the others. OT for this thread now

[shiv]

.. if India and Pakistan can co-exist in peace. From Pakistan's point of view, that can happen only if JK is handed over.

Anujan - good post, but the above quote is the only point I disagree with. The whole of Pakistan (i.e all people) do not really believe that J&K will solve their problems. It is Pakistan's "core security state" that pushes the Kashmir issue as critical. That issue is needed for their survival and as events show - as Kashmir gets further the security state led by army and RAPE is tottering towards failure.

[Ashok Sarraff]

^Through my interactions with Pakistanis, I have realized that Kashmir is only the first step. They truly believe that India was once ruled by Muslims (i.e., the country was owned by Muslims), and the British illegally deposed Muslims from that ruling position, and hence after the British left, the "Muslim rule" should have been restored. Instead, the reins were handed to "Hindus". In addition, there's always the "infallibility" and "perfection" of the Quran and all the "errors" and "inferiority" of Hinduism that they are duty-bound try to erase.