Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 15 Feb 2015 23:16

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/15 ... n-ukraine/
And Poroshenko continues to lie blatantly.

But Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, as he issued the cease-fire order at one minute after midnight Kiev time Sunday (5:01 p.m. EST), said the road to the town remained open and that Ukrainian troops there had been resupplied with ammunition.
:eek:


http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150215/1018309007.html
Earlier on Sunday, OSCE monitoring mission chief Ertugrul Apakan said the Donetsk militia barred the monitors from visiting the town of Debaltseve, where several thousand Ukrainian troops remain surrounded by pro-independence forces.
"Prior to the meeting… with the OSCE, which took place in the second half of the day [Sunday], I personally, as an authorized representative [of DPR], received no requests from OSCE to visit Debaltseve area," Denis Pushilin said.
He asserted that the monitors could have been denied entrance to the area due to security reasons.


If the route is open and Debalseve is not encircled then how come the DPR militia is stopping OSCE observers ?!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Feb 2015 00:25

The Nazis wanted the ceasefire so that they could bring in massive reinforcements to break the siege of Debaltseve and mass-murder the people in the suburbs of Mariupol with the Azov Battalion. Whether Comrade Vlad fell for that is another question: UBCNews Strategic Gola-e-Krystall says this has all the signs of a Georgia deja vu
Meanwhile: updates
raging.me ‏@raging545 31m31 minutes ago
VIDEO #Russia(ns) attackd #Shyrokyne nr #Mariupol capturing part,1 #Ukraine soldr. KIA 15 WIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6EvdEy7Hh8

EuroMaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR 2h2 hours ago
#Odesa patriot killed to night near #Mariupol RIP |EMPR NEWS

Debaltseve tweet
tuumapomm ‏@tuumapomm 20m20 minutes ago
"Kryvbas" in #Debaltseve received an ultimatum from Russians, surrender by 23.00 or be destroyed. They have casualties. #Ukraine

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 16 Feb 2015 02:25

Poroshenko's lies are being helpfully spread by "fair and balanced" american news media -- so the cold war "finished communism once and for all", but Pravda and propaganda journalism moved intact to the USA -- splitting up and renamed to CNN/NBC/ABC/FOX.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 16 Feb 2015 02:29

You would have to dig the worlds deepest tunnel to find out media coverage of sakashvili doings in ukraine. Totally fair and balanced. Check out sakashvili's route to ukraine from georgia, if you are curious.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2015 04:13

Ha!Ha! "Supreme Commander "Willy Wanker",aka choco-soldier Proroshenko has displayed his martial ambitions by wearing a uniform.Thanks to his grand strategy thus far,the UKR has lost the Crimea,much of the east and has 8,000+ of his forces surrounded by DR troops. Given his track record thus far,all that the DR have to do is to wait patiently for him to commit even more blunders and gain stealthily the entire east of the country.

Ukraine crisis: Guns fall silent in Donetsk as ceasefire begins
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 46848.html

Poroshenko, wearing the uniform of the armed forces supreme commander, said in a televised address in the capital Kiev that there was still “alarm” over the situation around Debaltseve, a key transport hub, where government forces have been hard pressed by encircling Russian-backed separatists.On Saturday, Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said at a televised briefing in Kiev: “Ahead of midnight, rebels are trying to complete tactically important plans to enlarge the territory under their control, primarily in the direction of Debaltseve.”

Heavy shelling could be heard at a rebel checkpoint about 10 miles west of Debaltseve, a Reuters witness said, reporting outgoing artillery rounds almost every minute.

A column of new military vehicles and artillery passed through the checkpoint in the direction of Debaltseve. The checkpoint was manned by several dozen professional-looking combatants. Tanks and armoured vehicles could also be seen.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a rebel at the checkpoint said local fighters were being supported by “guests from Russia.”

Spokesman Lysenko said separatist forces continued to be reinforced by fighters and military equipment crossing Ukraine's eastern border from Russia over the past 24 hours.

The rebels have advanced far past the line of an earlier ceasefire deal, agreed in September. The new accord appears to envisage them withdrawing their guns around 50 miles, to take them back behind it, while Ukrainian guns would move 15 miles back.

Thursday's accord also prescribed constitutional reform to give more autonomy to eastern Ukraine, where many Russian speakers live. Kiev rejects independence for the “people's republics” the rebels have declared.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 16 Feb 2015 06:49

https://news.yahoo.com/georgias-saakashvili-appointed-aide-ukraine-leader-095756606.html

So Saakashvili is now "aide" to Poroshenko, and this is not news anywhere. incredible. Saakashvili was the US puppet during the Georgian "Rose Revolution" and now he is part of this revolution too...this is about as obvious as it gets w.r.t. US SD involvement.

"Mikheil will become a representative of Ukraine abroad and, simultaneously, a representative of the international community in Ukraine," President Petro Poroshenko said in a statement.

Saakashvili for his part said Ukrainians deserved a better future free of corruption and injustice.

"We will not win if we do not build a new Ukraine today and do not implement new reforms," he was quoted as saying in a statement.

A charismatic lawyer, Saakashvili rose to power in Georgia after the Rose Revolution that ousted the country’s former leader, ex-Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze, in 2003.


A very animal-farm-ish article by saakashvili in Al_guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/georgia-lesson-for-ukraine-crimea-referendum-trick

The invasions of Ukraine and Georgia bear striking similarities, not only because the pattern of the invader stays the same, but also because the two countries share deep historic parallels. Today, when Putin and his cheerleaders in the west claim Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine – as they justified Russia's aggression in Georgia on the pretext of protecting Russian citizens – they seem to ignore the facts. In eastern Ukraine, Stalin's regime killed 7 million people in an artificially created famine called Golodomor in the 1930s, to replace a restive population with a more loyal one.



Of course, Stalin being a native son of Georgia is not being mentioned by this champion of freedom and democracy from Georgia, who quotes Stalin as an example of how Russia is evil incarnate. This would be comical if it weren't so bloody real.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Pratyush » 16 Feb 2015 09:33

This would be the joke of the century. If it was not so tragic.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 16 Feb 2015 10:04

Chocolate has scored an own goal w.r.t. Debaltsevo. Since he denied the existence of the pocket, at he Minsk talks, it finds no place in the ceasefire treaty. The rebel leader Zakharenko, in his press conference has said that any attempt by Ukraine to get supplies
in, or soldiers out of the pocket, would mean passing through rebel territory and would therefore be a violation of the ceasefire terms, making the rebels free to act appropriately.

Ukies in the pocket can communicate with their families on cellphone and their description of the situation is rather different from the official Ukrainian position. Rebels have therefore asked for unconditional surrender of all those in the pocket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PcXorlP16U

News clip of a destroyed Ukrainian column at Debaltsevo. (Not sure if they were trying to get in or out).

Sakashvilli has indeed been appointed as advisor to the Ukrainian govt on foreign affairs. No doubt based on his experience of promising autonomy to regions in his country, reneging on that, starting a civil war, getting US help, provoking a Russian response and then getting his butt kicked.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2015 10:28

Shaky-Willy now aide to Willy Wanker?! Hilarious.Imagine the "aide" who cowered down in the street when Russian fighters flew over Tiblisi,and lost the war with Russia now advising the chocolate soldier himself. It reminds me of the old Afghan saying about the Pakis;"why take advice from them,who have never won a war from us who have never lost one!"

http://rt.com/op-edge/232019-minsk-ceas ... agreement/
Ukraine is a hot potato’: Why US stood back from Minsk talks?
Published time: February 13, 2015

RT: The biggest achievement of the Minsk talks is the ceasefire, of course. But it's only going to be implemented on Sunday. Why do you think there's no immediate truce?

Martin Sieff: I think war is always messy, especially civil disturbance, that kind of chaotic war that occurs there. You are dealing with paramilitary forces with its difficulties of command and control and centralization on the rebel side in Lugansk and Donetsk. And the Ukrainian army notoriously has very pro-commanded control of its side as well. So both sides will need those several days’ breathing space just in order to get their ducks in a row and line up their formations for the agreements that were reached in Minsk.

READ MORE: Ukraine peace deal: Ceasefire starting February 15, removal of heavy weapons

RT: There have been reports of further attacks and possible victims among civilians from east Ukraine. Are the warring sides actually ready to bring about the truce?

MS: That’s a very good question. Certainly President Putin had to exercise serious pressure to restrain the leaders of both the secessionist provinces from pushing for the maximum demands. And there has been far too little coverage in the Western press about the Ukrainian army’s use of heavy artillery, in particular to continue to bombard the city of Donetsk. And there have been reports including in [Thursday’s] New York Times of continual artillery bombardment before the truce was reached.

RT: The new cover of the Economist features an image of Vladimir Putin, looking fairly menacing - with the title 'Putin's War on the West'. Do you expect the Minsk deal to perhaps change the view of Russia as a threat and aggressor among western media?

MS: I wish it would. It’s a very unjustified assessment. The Russians are reacting and have been reacting since the coup in Kiev last February to continued assaults on allied genuinely neutral regimes and on their own core security areas. But this is an image which does not have a justification in reality but it’s so deeply emotionally held in the West, especially in Britain and in the US, to an irrational degree. It’s very hard to challenge it; it’s very hard to move people’s perceptions, to make them register with the record of what actually happened. Facts never get in the way of a powerful emotional image.

RT: The US hailed those talks, but didn't participate. Why is Washington standing back here?

MS: I think there are two aspects of that. One is that the US and President Obama in particular have their hands full dealing with the ISIS crisis in the Middle East right now. And as Abraham Lincoln famously said to his Secretary of State [William] Henry Seward when he wanted to start a war with the British Empire during the US Civil War: “One war at a time.” So the US can’t focus fully or even primarily on Ukraine because of the ISIS crisis. And secondly Ukraine is a hot potato. There is such an emotional bias against Russia and so much of a dangerous and irrational war attitude in the American political as well as media world. And this is for Democrats as well as Republicans. I think President Obama finds it more prudent and in many ways sensibly and wisely to keep a low profile and allow Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande to make the running which they have done very responsibly.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 16 Feb 2015 11:09

There is a concerted effort of "pocket -- what pocket?" re. debaltsevo. OSCE are joining the match as substitute from Ukraine's side. More trenches to dig. A moat is needed.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby JE Menon » 16 Feb 2015 11:14

http://swarajyamag.com/world/europes-uk ... y-unfolds/

Returning the gaze, a small contribution from yours truly.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 16 Feb 2015 11:24

^^^ Bichhar an everything. Sharm, sharm!

Good job, otherwise.

There needs to be more input to the regular rags -- in deutch, froggy, poodlie, and unklie languages. The monopoly of existing interests on official propaganda needs to end.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2015 11:27

Nice piece JEM!

First day of Ukraine ceasefire deal still sees fighting
Kiev and breakaway republics say ceasefire mostly being observed, but mortar fire is heard east of Luhanske on highway to Debaltseve

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... debaltseve
Xcpts:
South of Luhanske is a 10-mile stretch of deadly road that is often shelled by rebels and reportedly mined, largely cutting off Debaltseve from the rest of the Ukrainian forces. Farther north on the highway, a destroyed troop transport truck was still smoking.

“There’s no ceasefire here,” said a soldier who would give only his first name, Andrei. “It’s a present from Putin,” joked another soldier, gesturing in the direction of the shelling.

After the peace plan negotiations in Minsk, Vladimir Putin suggested that Ukrainian forces were surrounded and should give up the town, but Kiev has rejected this idea. Andrei showed the Guardian a text message telling Ukrainian troops they had been betrayed and would not be killed if they surrendered to rebels, which he said had been sent en masse to phones in the area near Debaltseve.

The rebels have said the ceasefire does not apply to Debaltseve and that Ukrainian forces will be attacked if they attempt movements other than to surrender. Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said the ceasefire agreements should be implemented in full, but did not specify whether the Kremlin believed Debaltseve to be exempt from the agreement.

According to the deal, Ukraine should also retake control of the border with Russia, which is currently fully under the control of the rebel forces and is used as a supply route from Russia for weapons and fighters. However, the agreements stipulate that border control will only come after local elections are held in the region and autonomy granted to the regions, though it is difficult to see how this process will work. Indeed, it appears more likely that if the ceasefire does hold, Kiev will essentially have to pay to support the rebel-held territory but will not have any political control.

The opposing sides appeared to be using the ceasefire to strengthen their positions. Three trucks full of Ukrainian soldiers in full battle gear were waiting on the highway leading to Luhanske, and a squad commander from a nearby volunteer battalion admitted Ukrainian forces were reinforcing their positions toward Debaltseve.

The Azov volunteer battalion said fighting had continued on a second major front near the coastal city of Mariupol, where 50 men from the battalion were injured and three killed on Saturday fighting for the town of Shirokine between government-controlled Mariupol and rebel forces near the Russian border.


From the above,it appears that the UKR forces are on the defensive,badly outnumbered and surrounded in the Debaltsev pocket ,with no relief in sight,unable to break out or be relieved and are suffering losses in the Mariupol area too. The fate of the 8,000 men has become a prestige issue here and there is no evidence that the DR/Russians are relenting.Kiev will have to send in paratroops/commandos by air to reinforce the trapped men,adding to the numbers trapped already and hope that they can fight their way put of the trap! But that would mean a breach of the ceasefire and allow the Russians to send in more "volunteers" and material with the deafening shriek of "Stalin Organs" firing their rockets at the UKR targets. Checkmate is it not?

The beauty of the deal is that as highlighted,Kiev has to pay the price of "owning" the east in the peace deal/ceasefire,but has zero political control and the border too with Russia!
Controil of the east is all about logistics.Russia can simply turn on the military material tap on at any time and any place of its choosing Wanker can do about it.and there's b*gger all that the Kiev junta and Willy Wanker can do about it!
Last edited by Philip on 16 Feb 2015 11:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby JE Menon » 16 Feb 2015 11:40

Tx Shreeman/Philip - decided to come out from under the woodwork, so to speak...

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2015 13:01

This is no time to ship lethal arms to Ukraine

Please put your hand up if you support giving lethal arms to the Ukrainian army and also supported the US going to war with Iraq in 2003 and with Libya in 2011, the former which unbalanced much of the Middle East and the latter which has left a country almost destroyed, semi-ruled by malicious militias. Also raise your hand if you supported in 1998 the West going to war against Serbia to wrest away its province of Kosovo and give it independence -- a move which ironically Russia (and Spain, worried about its Basques) opposed, arguing that this would set a precedent for territorial separation by force of arms.

If you supported all these three interventions don’t take offence if I question your judgment on the issue of arms to Ukraine.

I am trying to work out where President Barack Obama stands on all this. His Vice-President, Joe Biden, seems to be running with the foxes while he himself is running with the hares. Take the president’s interview on CNN the weekend before last. Until then the official White House line had been that the crisis was instigated by President Vladimir Putin to block Ukraine from creating a democratic government.

But in that broadcast, as my esteemed fellow columnist, William Pfaff, has observed, “Obama conceded to an American TV audience that the official US narrative concerning the war in Ukraine isn’t true”. On CNN Obama said, “Mr. Putin made this decision around Crimea and Maidan not because of some grand strategy, but essentially because he was caught off-balance by the protest in the Maidan and Ukraine’s then-president (Viktor Yanukovych) fleeing after we (the US and the European Union) had made a deal to broker power in Ukraine.”easy for Putin to suspect because of the presence of EU representatives, as well as an American Assistant Secretary of State and a visit to Kiev by CIA officials), Putin retaliated by adroitly seizing Crimea, for many years a Russian territory, but Ukrainian only since 1954”.


Pfaff adds his own authoritative interpretation of the reasons for what happened next: “Believing that the Maidan demonstrations last February had been secretly contrived by the West (
I find it easier to work out where German Chancellor Angela Merkel stands. Although she was party to the counterproductive EU attempt to pull Ukraine into the EU orbit by insisting that a new trade deal would mean that Ukraine should shun Russia’s own Eurasian Economic Community, whereas it should have been allowed to face both ways, and also party to a Western policy that still refuses to say loud and clear that Nato does not expect Ukraine ever to join NATO, she now realises the West has put itself on the slippery slope. She is trying to persuade both sides from sliding down it. The other day, confronting those who seek tougher sanctions on Russia and sending arms to Ukraine, she urged patience: “I am surprised at how faint-hearted we are and how quickly we lose courage.” By stealing the language of the “hard” school she has pulled the carpet from beneath them. It is they who have to prove that this won’t lead to a dangerous confrontation with Russia -- even war.

The Western people will never agree to that. What? Fight over a piece of “far away country between people of whom we know little”? They will not. This is not Chamberlain’s appeasement. What is appeasement is that the Russian government until recently accepted with barely a murmur, that the West, ignoring its own implied promises, would not expand NATO so far east. Russian has appeased the West, not vice versa. Now, belatedly, the expansion right up to Russia’s border rankles. The West’s behavior in Ukraine has convinced Putin that the West would like nothing better than to push the reach of Nato up to Ukraine’s border with Russia.

If Obama does let himself to be swept along by hard-line advisers and senators and orders the military to ship in heavy weapons the US won’t have the other big NATO powers going along with it. Neither Germany nor France, nor Spain, nor Italy, nor Britain. Leaders know their electorate would not tolerate it.

I don’t think Obama will. Apart from the CNN quote (above), which suggests he understands Putin’s point of view, Obama certainly does not want to leave office with a proxy war with Russia raging. If he doesn’t want to attack Syria or put boots on the ground to fight ISIS, if he is happy to get the US out of Afghanistan and not to seriously re-enter the Iraq imbroglio, he is not going to go up against Russia, even via the indirect proxy of the Ukrainian army.
That’s how I read it. How do you?
- See more at: http://www.dailymirror.lk/63653/this-is ... ebwFP.dpuf


Also read:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs
Joyce Nelson
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_a ... _gmos.html

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.....


Seems like the US has a stake in the Ukraine that has nothing to do with the freedom of the Ukrainians!!!!
And by the US, I mean the corporations like Bayer and Monsanto.

If anyone wants to post this in the public forum, feel free....I don't know enough about the issue to take on either side.....
Monsanto,IMF,NATO,& World Bank are Hell Bent on Owning Ukraine

A little background:

In late 2013, the then president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, rejected a European Union association agreement tied to the $17 billion IMF loan, whose terms are only now being revealed.

Instead, Yanukovych chose a Russian aid package worth $15 billion plus a discount on Russian natural gas. His decision was a major factor in the ensuing deadly protests that led to his ouster from office in February 2014 and the ongoing crisis.

Ukrainian law bars farmers from growing GM crops. Long considered 'the bread basket of Europe', Ukraine's rich black soil is ideal for growing grains, and in 2012 Ukrainian farmers harvested more than 20 million tonnes of corn.
and 
Meanwhile, Russia's Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev stated in April: "We don't have a goal of developing GM products here or to import them. We can feed ourselves with normal, common, not genetically modified products. If the Americans like to eat such products, let them eat them. We don't need to do that; we have enough space and opportunities to produce organic food."
Monsanto has an office in Ukraine. While this does not shout ‘culpability’ from every corner, it is no different than the US military’s habit to place bases in places that they want to gain political control. The opening of this office coincided with land grabs with loans from the IMF and World Bank to one of the world’s most hated corporations – all in support of their biotech takeover.

Previously, there was a ban on private sector land ownership in the country – but it was lifted ‘just in time’ for Monsanto to have its way with the Ukraine.

In fact, a bit of political maneuvering by the IMF gave the Ukraine a $17 billion loan – but only if they would open up to biotech farming and the selling of Monsanto’s poison crops and chemicals – destroying a farmland that is one of the most pristine in all of Europe. Farm equipment dealer, Deere, along with seed producers Dupont and Monsanto, will have a heyday.

In the guise of ‘aid,’ a claim has been made on Ukraine’s vast agricultural riches. It is the world’s third largest exporter of corn and fifth largest exporter of wheat. Ukraine has deep, rich, black soil that can grow almost anything, and its ability to produce high volumes of GM grain is what made biotech come rushing to take it over.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1055631/pg1

*PS:If this is the underlying reason,ot one major one,of the entire imbroglio,then watch how the UKR will adhere to the IMF bailout of $17.5B promised to the UKR ,going upto $40B,with the advent of Monsanto!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shanmukh » 16 Feb 2015 13:14

JE Menon wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/world/europes-ukraine-problem-an-avoidable-catastrophe-slowly-unfolds/

Returning the gaze, a small contribution from yours truly.


Excellent, JEM-saar. Just one point. You say the optimistic scenario is the ceasefire holding. But the ceasefire's durability depends entirely on the amount of autonomy M. Chocolate is willing to give the Novorossiyans (and if it is given to Donetsk & Lugansk, expect Kharkov and possibly even Zaporozhie & Odessa to start demanding it). But this is something that is desperately opposed by `real Ukraine' i.e., Volhynia & Galicia. There is an independence movement of Rightists who want `pure Ukraine' in Galicia already - it is not mainstream, but it does burst into flames in the media now & then. They are quiet now only because they think Novorossiya can be re-absorbed and brought back into the Ukrainean fold. If it becomes impossible, the dissolution is a foregone certainty. The autonomy will merely be a forerunner of the total independence of the different parts of Ukraine. There is still a Novorossiyan identity that can hold the east & south in one coherent unit (current Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, Zaporozhie, Kherson, Odessa, east bank Dnepropetrovsk, and Mykolaev oblasts). There is a coherent `Ukrainean identity in the West - Volyn, Rivne, Khmel, Lviv & Ternopol. What happens to the middle (Zhitomir, Vinnitsa, Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava) will be interesting. This used to be the old Malorossiya & used to have its own identity. When it was merged into Ukraine, its identity was suppressed by the Communists. Wonder if it will return again. As late as the late 80s, no Ukrainean was spoken in Kiev - it was all Russian. Even now, they don't speak proper Ukrainean & have mostly registered as `Ukrainean' because it makes life easier. This region is not really anti-Russia like the West, although tons of Ukraineans moved into Kiev in the 90s. This region will have to make its choice. The remaining parts of Ukraine will revert to the pre-Ukrainean European identities - Hungarian, Romanian & even Bulgarian in the far south of Odessa.

So, the choice, as I see it is not between a `tenuous peace' & Afghanisation, but between `Balkanisation' & `Afghanisation'. Ukraine, the entity as we know it, is doomed. The only way Ukraine as we know it can survive is if the Novorossiyans are genocided or cleansed.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby svenkat » 16 Feb 2015 14:20

Found in the net.Long article worth the read.The political consciousness is complex but the western barbarians have no problem in instigating revolutions among 'lesser people' for their imperial ambitions.
A Splintered Ukraine

Resume:Efforts to unite Ukraine around the ideology of Ukrainian ethnic nationalism have proven futile. The complete fiasco of the ideas of Rukh was quite obvious way back in the 1990s. The phenomenon of Victor Yushchenko, who tried to give nationalism a new lease of life, rests on support gained from external forces, first and foremost, and also on support given to Yulia Tymoshenko’s populist movement that harvested votes in the cities and districts where an overt ethnic nationalism would not have had any chances otherwise.


A sovereign and independent Ukraine only appeared on world and European maps fairly recently, after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. No one in Europe had prepared the event and no one was prepared for it. No one understood the nature of the Ukrainian nation either. The Europeans did not have any experts on Ukraine or even Ukrainian translators, although the same is true for Kazakhstan, Belarus and Moldavia. The West only had Sovietologists, Kremlinologists and Russia specialists. Europeans could much better understand the independence of smaller countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and even Armenia and Georgia. Ukraine suddenly became the biggest European country in terms of territory. It had a smaller population than Germany, France, Britain and Italy, but larger than Spain or Poland. Yet it was way behind Europe in terms of economic might, living standards and the maturity of national consciousness. As far back as in the mid 1990s, several European foundations sent researchers to Ukraine to produce a clearer picture of the past, present and future of the new neighbor, which had sprung up so unexpectedly. The research proved to be immensely complicated as the results of polls differed tremendously in Kiev and Odessa, Kharkov and Sevastopol, Lvov in the country’s west and Donetsk in the east. The problem was that the differences affected basic values of national history and religion, as well as Ukraine’s relations with Russia and Western countries.

Yet the West did not have any special interest in Ukraine: there was a general decline in attention toward anything related to Russia and the former Soviet Union in the 1990s. The number of university students studying Russian dropped by dozens of percent, and only a few showed interest in studying Ukrainian, Georgian or Kazakh. Interest in Ukraine skyrocketed all of a sudden only during the ‘orange revolution’ in November and December 2004. That event propelled the names of Yulia Tymoshenko and Victor Yushchenko to worldwide acclaim. When Yushchenko addressed a joint session of both houses of the U.S. Congress as the newly elected Ukrainian president, U.S. representatives and senators welcomed him as a hero, with more than a hundred of them lining up to shake hands with him.

However, later developments puzzled and disappointed Western political analysts and policymakers. Over the past year, the Western mass media dropped virtually any comments on what was happening in Ukraine. Russian newspapers, too, drastically cut their Ukrainian coverage. The Ukrainian equation has proven to be overly complex due to the presence of many unknown elements in it.

The authoritarian regimes of the former Soviet Union and the Russian Empire had many more drawbacks, apart from checks on openness, but while they shackled progressive processes, they also weeded out the seeds of discord scattered around the Imperial lands. As the Soviet Union disintegrated, those seeds sprouted out in the South Caucasus, North Caucasus, Central Asia, and Ukraine. The latter avoided an armed conflict, but the acute contradictions that surfaced in Ukrainian society continue to threaten its stability and are slowing down the country’s development.

THE UKRAINIAN JIGSAW

Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko made a critical address to the nation when he called for unity between Left-Bank Ukraine and Right-Bank Ukraine. At the same time, Prime Minister Victor Yanukovich promised to build a policy taking account of “Ukraine’s three cultural and economic spaces – the European, Eurasian and Mediterranean.” Former President Leonid Kuchma had claimed that Ukraine has twelve clearly shaped and distinct historical regions – the Sloboda region, Polesia, the Middle Sub-Dnieper region, the Dnieper Rapids region, the Donets Basin, Podolia, the Black Sea Littoral Area, the Crimea, Volyn, Galicia, Transcarpathia (known as Subcarpathia in the West – Ed.) and Bukovina (Leonid Kuchma. Ukraine Is Not Russia: A Return Into History, Moscow, 2003, p. 19. – Russ. Ed.).

I personally see no grounds to disagree with Kuchma on this classification, yet as a historian I would put these regions in a different order and specify the different paths that they followed over the past thousand years.

The historical destinies of Galicia, as well as neighboring Transcarpathia and Bukovina, are very specific. These parts of western Ukraine were the least affected by the Tatar-Mongol invasion compared with the other principalities of Kievan Rus. In later centuries, they were regions of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rzeczpospolita, Hungary, and Austria-Hungary. They were never subordinate to the Russian Empire and during World War I conscripts were drafted there to fight in the Austro-Hungarian army, not the Russian army. The Treaty of Versailles split these lands among three countries – Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia. They were incorporated into Soviet Ukraine de facto only after 1945. The people in these regions have always felt a strong influence from the Roman Catholic Church, but both the Polish Kingdom and the Hapsburg monarchy regarded them as provinces. People in Galicia did not know anything about Alexander Pushkin, yet equally enough they knew nothing about Taras Shevchenko, the prominent nineteenth-century Ukrainian poet. Thus, the nationalist idea that budded there at the end of the 19th century was centered on obtaining autonomy for Ukraine within the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

The Sloboda region (whose name is derived from the Russian word ‘sloboda’ – a non-serf settlement of peasants and/or craftsmen) is historically a part of Russia. The border separating the Russian state and Rzecz Pospolita at the beginning of the 17th century was far to the west of the modern cities of Izyum, Kharkov, Sumy and Rylsk. This underdeveloped area attracted peasants from Rzeczpospolita, who were fleeing oppression, as well as fugitive Russians. Russian servicemen settled there, as well as Cossacks from Ukraine who had lost battles to Polish troops. The Russian government would deploy the new Cossack regiments there that would make up the Belgorod defense line protecting Moscow from incursions by the Crimean Tatar khans. Kharkov, founded in 1656, developed as a Russian city. After the Bolshevik revolution of 1917, it was the industrially advanced Kharkov that became the first capital of Soviet Ukraine. It remained the capital until 1934. [According to a census taken in 1989, ethnic Russians accounted for up to 30 percent of the population in the Sloboda region of Ukraine. Ukrainians made up another 65 percent, but most of them spoke Russian as their native language.

From the historical, ethnic and cultural point of view, Ukraine’s foundation was formed out of three historical regions that were officially called Malorossia (Little Russia) in the Russian Empire. Today this area encompasses the City of Kiev, the Zaporozhye, Zhitomir, Vinnitsa, Kiev and Kirovograd regions on the right bank of the Dnieper, and also the Chernigov and Poltava regions on the river’s left bank. The Russian classical novelist Nikolai Gogol, the linguist and ethnographer Vladimir Dahl, as well as numerous other Russian and Ukrainian writers devoted their writings to Malorossia. The word was included in the full title of the Russian emperors.


In the mid-17th century, hetman Bogdan Khmelnitsky led a national revolt for the liberalization of the Ukrainian people in this region. By 1650, the three districts had singled themselves out of the whole territory and had formed a state ruled according to the habits and traditions of Cossack life. In 1654, when these lands joined Russia, their aggregate territory was even smaller than it was originally. The areas that can be called Bogdan Khmelnitsky’s Ukraine went over to Russia only after the Andrusov Treaty of 1667 and the so-called ‘treaty of eternal peace.’ As a nation and state, Ukraine took shape around this central territory. Only a part of Malorossia was integrated into the Malorossian General Governorship. Soviet-era historiography discarded the term Malorossia as capitalist and nationalistic, while today’s nationalists condemn it as an asset of “Russian imperialism.” The common people did not reject it, however, and even Zaporozhye Cossacks mention “our Malorossian fatherland” in their documents. Ukrainian publicist Leonid Berest said: “Yes, we are Malorossians, Little Russians. The so-called national democrats hate the word bitterly. But what’s so bad about it? It was here in Kiev, in Malorossia, that Rus, which was destined to become Great Russia, took its origins. Malorossia is called this way because it is the original Russia. Contrary to the fantasies of our nationalists tormented by the inferiority complex, the name does not humiliate anyone.” (2000 weekly, October 6, 2006, p. F3).

Novorossia, which incorporates the regions of the Black Sea northern littoral area, is another large and very special part of the country. Most of the territory lies within the so-called ‘Wild Field’ zone of southern steppes, from where the Crimean Tatars and Turks made incursions into Russia and Rzeczpospolita. Russia acquired this area under peace agreements signed with Turkey in 1739, 1774, 1791 and 1812. One of the first cities founded by Catherine II in the area was Yekaterinoslav (currently Dnepropetrovsk). It was meant to become the capital of the entire new territory, but its actual development only began in the 19th century when railways and industrial facilities were built there. At the same time, the coastal cities of Kherson, Nikolayev and Odessa developed at a fair pace. The resettlement of people to Novorossia only began after its annexation to Russia, with a population made up of Ukrainians, Russians, Greeks, Jews, Bulgarians and Germans. Nationalistic ideas have never been very popular in Novorossia. As journalist from Odessa said, his hometown is “a commercial center, where the majority of people consider money to be the matter of primary, secondary and tertiary importance. This is the way it has always been there, even during the Soviet era. Odessites may hold the Ukrainian state in disrepute, but they will never be so desperate and irrational as to instigate any sort of revolution against it.” (Russia and Ukraine, Moscow, 1997, p. 240).

The Donets Basin (Donbass) plays a huge role in Ukraine’s current political and economic life. Development there began much later than in other parts of the country. Coal deposits were discovered there as early as at the beginning of the 19th century, yet the production of coal only began after the Crimean War, when the first railway lines were built. The discovery of giant iron ore deposits in Krivoy Rog gave a huge impetus to the region’s development. Coal production in Donbass stood at around 25 million tons a year in 1913 and iron production was around 3 million tons. The region turned into an “all-Union steamshop” during the Soviet era. Ethnic Russians and native Russian speakers dominated its population. Even after the Soviet Union’s disintegration, Miners’ Day is still a major holiday there. The Donetsk and Lugansk regions have a combined population of 8 million, making them the most densely populated regions in Ukraine and they have the biggest concentration of the working class in the post-Soviet Union.

The Crimea stands apart from all other areas of the country. Its formal integration into the Russian Empire took place in 1783 and the city of Sebastopol (Sevastopol) was founded the same year. Soon after that the Crimea became part of the Tauride province, with its capital in Simferopol. Throughout the 19th century, the authorities conducted a policy of pressuring the indigenous Tatar population to leave for Turkey. Tatar emigration to the Ottoman Empire reached its peak during the Crimean War from 1853-1856 and afterwards. To replace the Tatars in the Crimea, the czarist Russian authorities resettled Russian and Ukrainian farmers, German and French colonists, Jews, Bulgarians and Greeks. The southern coast of the peninsula soon turned into a seaside resort for the Russian aristocracy and wealthy people. A territory known as the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic emerged as a region of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR) at the end of 1921. Its entire population was a mere 720,000 at the time, including about 144,000 Tatars. It is well known that the Tatars were deported from the region in 1944. By the end of the Soviet era, the Crimea had a population of 2 million, 67 percent of which were Russians and 26 percent were Ukrainians.


REGIONAL DIVERGENCES IN THE UKRAINIAN ECONOMY

Throughout the 19th and the 20th centuries, the Ukrainian economy was built as an element of the overall Russian imperial or Soviet economic system, and that is why horizontal links between Ukrainian regions were rather weak. The bulk of resources and heavy industries were located in the country’s east – in the Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk regions. As a whole, these regions make up the Industrialized East. Ukrainian national capitalism, represented by the Donetsk clan and the Dnepropetrovsk clan, took shape there after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby JE Menon » 16 Feb 2015 14:26

I don't disagree with you nageshks - somewhere in there I think I mentioned "Eurghanistan" with various malcontents spilling in and out as the future for Ukraine. If the ceasefire holds, that potential is less imminent... Perhaps I should have been clearer about that; I was mainly focusing on the situation on the eastern frontier...

I also suspect the situation in terms of restiveness in western Ukraine is not quite as acute as it may appear. I have acquaintances in the Volyn area, and I did not get that sense of their wanting to have their own thing going at last contact in December 2014. Plus the EU will keep a check on Polish ambitions at least in the near term.

For those who don't know about the history of the area that now constitutes Ukraine, an interesting book is "Ukraine and the Ukrainians" By Stephan Rudnitsky published in 1915 - will open your eyes about a lot of what is happening now. Its available online FoC

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 16 Feb 2015 15:08

http://www.eurasiareview.com/16022015-g ... ot-tragic/

He said it should be a source of concern because Saakashvili’s advices to “friendly” Ukraine might be “dangerous” for Kiev and added that “Saakashvili’s mistakes contributed largely to the tragedy that we had in 2008”, referring to war with Russia.
:lol:

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 16 Feb 2015 15:30

http://sputniknews.com/politics/2015020 ... 37004.html

Saakashvili uvach that got him the post.
Mikhail Saakashvili, the former president of Georgia, told Ukrainian television that with the appropriate knowledge, skills and weaponry, the Ukrainian military could "capture the whole of Russia."


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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shanmukh » 16 Feb 2015 20:47

JE Menon wrote:I also suspect the situation in terms of restiveness in western Ukraine is not quite as acute as it may appear. I have acquaintances in the Volyn area, and I did not get that sense of their wanting to have their own thing going at last contact in December 2014. Plus the EU will keep a check on Polish ambitions at least in the near term.


As for Volhynia & Galicia, they are not revolting today because they have hope that they can join NATO & EU. The current policy is of Ukrainean domination over the rest of the minorities. But if the east is given a veto over these EU-NATO aspirations & Ukrainean domination, they will definitely revolt & demand a separate country. And Novorossiya, given its Russian ties, will never ever allow this to happen. This is the real conundrum for M. Chocolate. By himself, he might not be averse to giving more autonomy to the Novorossiyans. But he can't. If he does, he will face another Maidan.

Also, Poland doesn't want these areas back. Poland is hated just as much as Russia by these Ukraineans - Ukraineans killed 100-150K Poles & ethnically cleansed them from Volhynia & Galicia in WW2 (and afterwards, too, during the revolt against Stalin). So, no-western Ukraine has to be its own state or must run all of Ukraine.

For those who don't know about the history of the area that now constitutes Ukraine, an interesting book is "Ukraine and the Ukrainians" By Stephan Rudnitsky published in 1915 - will open your eyes about a lot of what is happening now. Its available online FoC


Interesting. Never read Rudnitsky. Will give it a try. My favourite books on Ukrainean history are Solovyov (History of the Russian peoples - a 29 volume masterpiece) & Karamzin (History of the Russian State) both of which have dealt extensively with the Ukrainean history.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby ldev » 16 Feb 2015 21:22

Good article in The Atlantic which gives the history as to how US actions have shaped Putin's attitudes to the US over the years from his time as Deputy Mayor of St. Petersburg

The American Education of Vladimir Putin

U.S. businesses that moved into St. Petersburg had to deal directly with Deputy Mayor Putin who, according to John Evans, the U.S. consul general in St. Petersburg at the time, was always helpful in resolving contract disputes between U.S. and Russian businesses. Within the city’s U.S. and Western business community, Putin was seen as “pro-business.” He gave no impression whatsoever of any anti-American or anti-Western views.


NATO’s Kosovo campaign was a turning point for Moscow and for Putin personally. Russian officials interpreted the intervention as a means of expanding NATO’s influence in the Balkans, not as an effort to deal with a humanitarian crisis. They began to revise their previous conclusions about the prospects for cooperating with NATO as well as with the United States as the leader of the alliance. As Putin noted in a March 2014 speech, the experience left him with a rather harsh view of Americans, who, he said, “prefer in their practical politics to be guided not by international law, but by the law of force.” The Americans had, as they would on numerous occasions, “taken decisions behind our backs, presented us with accomplished facts.”



After September 11, he appeared convinced that Washington would come to see things from Moscow’s perspective and would recognize linkages between al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and terrorists in Chechnya. In a press conference in Brussels on October 2, 2001, Putin asserted that terrorists took advantage of “Western institutions and Western conceptions of human rights and the protection of the civilian population ... not in order to defend Western values and Western institutions, but rather ... in a struggle against them. Their final goal is annihilation.” All states would have to clamp down politically at home, as well as improve military postures abroad, to deal with this problem. Based on Russia’s experience in Afghanistan and Chechnya, Putin offered the United States concrete assistance in rooting out al-Qaeda.




In the aftermath of 9/11, Putin was mystified by the actions of his U.S. counterparts. In the absence of countervailing information, Putin initially saw American failure to respond to his warnings about the common threat of terrorism as a sign of dangerous incompetence. In a series of speeches just after September 11, Putin said he “was astonished” at the Clinton administration’s lack of reaction to his warnings of a terrorist plot brewing in Afghanistan. “I feel that I personally am to blame for what happened," he lamented. “Yes, I spoke a great deal about that threat. ... Apparently, I didn’t say enough. I didn’t find the words that could rouse people [in the U.S.] to the required system of defense.”

The 2003 U.S. intervention in Iraq convinced Putin that the United States was up to no good and looking for pretexts to intervene against hostile regimes to enhance its geopolitical position. Putin and his intelligence officials knew that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was bluffing about his possession of chemical and other weapons of mass destruction (WMD). After the invasion of Iraq, and the U.S. failure to find any WMD, a comment attributed to Putin was passed around European diplomatic circles: “Pity about the WMD. I would have found some.” In other words, the U.S. intelligence services and government were beyond incompetent—if you’re going to use a pretext, do your homework; make sure it's a good one.


On September 11, 2013, on the anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Putin returned to a public format that he had not used since 1999. He again wrote an op-ed in The New York Times, directed at the American public and calling for U.S. caution as it contemplated a military strike on Syria. The tone was anything but conciliatory. The prose was bold, not cautious. Putin observed: “It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan ‘you’re either with us or against us.’”

With this op-ed, Putin effectively declared that his American education was complete.

By 2013, as the crisis in Ukraine began to unfold, Putin’s view of America had become dark indeed. As he concluded in his March 2014 speech: “Russia strived to engage in dialogue with our colleagues in the West. We constantly propose cooperation on every critical question, want to strengthen the level of trust, want our relations to be equal, open, and honest. But we have not seen reciprocal steps.” Limited by a lack of direct contacts with the United States, and driven by his perception of the threat it posed, Putin believed that he had been rebuffed or deceived at every turn by the West.


Ironically it is easier to analyze Putin's action and stance in this confrontation. What is more difficult to understand is what is driving US policy? Is it the residue of real hatred for Russians left over from the Cold War? Is it the clearly stated US objective of ensuring that no real challenger ever emerges to rival US preeminent power? If so, is the basis for this military or economic or both? I think there has been no real analysis of this done. Western mainstream media are busy rah rahing Putin as the bad guy. And I have not seen any real attempt so far to analyze the real reasons behind US policies. IMO, notwithstanding Putin, Russia was in a long term secular decline relative to other countries. Why prod the bear in the eye in his near abroad as JEM says. That is bound to get a reaction. Was the pace of Russian decline not fast enough? And were therefore economic sanctions as a result of Ukraine an aid to speed up that decline? And what prompted Frau Merkel to enter into the hectic negotiations she did last week after sitting around for months? If there is a wedge between the US and EU over Ukraine, it will become easier to predict how this crisis plays out. But if there is no wedge, then it is imperative to understand US motivations because it is the real driver of this crisis.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Feb 2015 21:29

Take with some salt:

TheEqualizer ‏@ColoniumKoeln 1h1 hour ago

Breaking 7 members of the Nazi batt Azov killed while forced out of the city #Shyrokyne near #Mariupol by separatists

Debaltseve Tweets:
Conflict Reporter ‏@Conflict_Report 4h4 hours ago

#BreakingNews "The Ukrainian army is trying to break through the pocket of #Debaltseve. We will not allow this." - Pushilin via Interfax

Conflict Reporter ‏@Conflict_Report 8h8 hours ago

#REALITY_CHECK "7 trucks full of soldiers left #Debaltseve yesterday." Ukraine gives up Debaltseve and its troops. https://news.vice.com/article/escape-fr ... ieged-city

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 16 Feb 2015 22:20

Now this is straight from comedy central. :rotfl:

Jim Inhofe the powerful senator presents a bill to allow US to arm Ukbapzis. He brings with him poster size photos given to him by ukrainians proving how Russia was arming the militias.
His bill is passed.
The posters are found to be doctored images from 2008 Georgia war or elsewhere.
Senator blames Ukrainians. Ukrainians deny. Some middle guy blames memory lapse. :rotfl:
all happening here -
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-se ... 49852.html

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 16 Feb 2015 22:26

RSoami, your link the NYT article in the previous page also had a quote to this effect -- this is not the first time US has screwed up its amateurish efforts to play psyops to justify its warmongering, starting with Colin "Yellowcake" Powell's shenanigans at the UN and now this. GOTUS is making a horse's arse of itself with these repeated failures to understand that lying to the public is harder these days...and shutting up is better than trying to plant fake stories and reports, but the RFERL (US SD run media) is less than apologetic about screwing up its ukrainian shenanigans re: this photoshopped photo incident...I guess their target audience is the US public and NBC/FOX/CNN are effective on that front. But it is amazing that they are willing to lie to a US politician and not face repercussions.

RSoami wrote:
As Gawker reported, just hours after they were posted online by the Beacon, a group effort to vet the photographs had revealed that one of the images, taken in October, actually showed separatists in Ukraine, while the other two did show Russian troops, but driving near Russia’s border with Georgia more than six years ago during the brief conflict in South Ossetia.
:mrgreen:


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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 16 Feb 2015 23:09

^^ There is no proof "they" lied to a US politician. There will also not be any questions asked. Sakashvili has been made the viceroy of ukraine. This is how media coverage will be in the future.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 16 Feb 2015 23:28

Shreeman wrote:There is no proof "they" lied to a US politician. T


So the Senator's protests at being given doctored photos is just for effect? Wouldn't it be better for the senator to not say anything at all in that case? rather than say something and have Poroshenko's group give a lame non-response? all of this just to rebut the NYT article on the subject? Media coverage has been this way in the past too, except there was no social media to catch inconsistencies in the propaganda, sort of how news consumers confuse more sensational reportage of crime as being an indicator of actual increase in crime statistics.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 16 Feb 2015 23:32

There is no way out of Debaltseve.
The Ukrainian forces there are doomed.
So why wont idiot Poroshenko accept that the forces are surrounded and ask them to surrender. Why does he want them dead ?!

Could it be because the troops are volunteer brigades, who have repeatedly stated that they will return for Kiev when this war is over ?!
Or is it, because he is not in command and doesnt know if the troops will follow his order at all?!

Anyone has any clue!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 16 Feb 2015 23:42

So why wont idiot Poroshenko accept that the forces are surrounded and ask them to surrender. Why does he want them dead ?!
Could it be because the troops are volunteer brigades, who have repeatedly stated that they will return for Kiev when this war is over ?!
Or is it, because he is not in command and doesnt know if the troops will follow his order at all?!


I would wager that the intent seems to be to do a bigtime propaganda blast targeting Putin no matter what transpires in Debaltsev/Mariupol. So Poroshenko and the US lie about Proshenko's nazi troops winning when they are losing, and if Putin releases these troops out of the debaltseve area, they will back fighting after they appear on international TV to provide proof of how they fought Russian troops on Delatsev and slaughtered their comrades in violation of the Minsk agreement...same thing even if these Porosheno-nazi troops end up getting killed in action. Either way, this seems to be setting up the stage for another round of escalation against Russia, the ball is in Russia's court to response, and the US/EU/Ukrainazi response is already pre-determined no matter what russia does. We should know within a week or two.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2015 00:02

Who lost Russia will be the campaign question in 2016.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 17 Feb 2015 00:08

ramana wrote:Who lost Russia will be the campaign question in 2016.


Ramana,

If you look at the field, 2016 is going to be focussed on domestic issues. Folks like christie, jeb bush, scott walker. They have the same gut-feeling based hatred for the left that the wider US population carries for Russia.

As far as foreign policy is concerned: http://www.gallup.com/poll/168110/recor ... enemy.aspx

this was long before ukraine really blew up and hard 24 hour propaganda started. Now it is easily in 80-90%. So there is really nothing to argue/campaign.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 17 Feb 2015 00:45

Amazing how effective US govt. propaganda is in brainwashing citizens to support US policies that may not necessarily be in the interest of US even, going by the gallup poll results on Russia. Thankfully, everyone in the US has freedom and democracy, as denizens of the only free country in the world.

Also, Nice article on Ukraine, JEM saar.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 17 Feb 2015 00:49


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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Feb 2015 02:29



This land is my land, this land is our land..
From Vladivostok, to the Oder River..
From the Polar IceCap
To Odessa
Per Comrade Putin
And despite UkBapZis..
This land was made for u & me!
:mrgreen:

Image

Each Sees - Phyrr sees Comrade Vlad and his Vodka Dance a few hundred miles to the West, North and South. That is the one constant here.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Feb 2015 02:55

Escape from Debaltseve: How One Convoy Made It Out of Ukraine's Besieged City
By Alec Luhn
February 16, 2015 | 6:01 am

Seven trucks full of Ukrainian soldiers left the besieged town of Debaltseve in eastern Ukraine hours after the so-called ceasefire began Sunday. Only five made it back safely behind Ukrainian lines. As they sped north through the no man's land between Debaltseve and the next Ukrainian position, they began taking fire from rebel artillery. A squad commander who goes by the call sign Jackson was in the first truck.

"A shell landed three meters from our vehicle," he told VICE News. "It's a miracle we're alive. The third truck got hit."
The 10-mile stretch of highway between Debaltseve and Luhanske is the only lifeline providing food and ammunition to pro-Kiev forces defending the city. The road is full of mines and flanked by rebel firing positions.
Ukrainian soldiers at the southern edge of Luhanske told VICE News on Sunday that it was suicide to go any further down the road. As they spoke, incoming and outgoing mortar fire boomed just off to the east.
Near-constant rebel shelling had pinned down Jackson's men in the city, but they had run out of ammunition and supplies so they decided to make a run for it, he said. "If we would have stayed there, we would have stayed there for eternity," he said grimly.

Fifteen soldiers from Jackson's unit made it out, including four wounded men. After arriving safely at the hospital in Artemivsk, about 30 miles northwest of Debaltseve, the grimy soldiers handed the injured down from the open-backed truck on stretchers and blankets.
Jackson's unit first deployed to Debaltseve in August.... By January, the rebels had surrounded the city on three sides and were shelling it mercilessly. On February 8, they drew the noose tight. Medics in Artemivsk said Sunday's convoy was the first to make it out of the city in the past week.

..In a television address announcing the truce, President Petro Poroshenko said the road to Debaltseve remained open and that the troops there had been resupplied with ammunition. But the story of the convoy's escape on Sunday shows that both those claims are essentially false. The rebels "had lots of equipment," Jackson said. "We stayed to the very end, but it wasn't viable to stay without weapons."

Thousands of Ukrainian troops remain trapped in Debaltseve, which some soldiers (quoting the authoritative UBC News) have compared to the bloody WWII battle of Stalingrad. Sixty percent of the city has been destroyed, and several buildings burn down each day from shelling, Jackson said. "You just get used to the constant shooting and explosions," he said. "We know what they're shooting at us just by the sound of it." Two of the men delivered to the hospital had bullet wounds, indicating the fighting is moving to close quarters.
A mass text message was sent to cell phones in the area urging the Ukrainian forces to surrender: "Parasha (Poroshenko) betrayed us. He's ****** lying there's no encirclement. We're going to the Donetsk guys. Captivity not death."
Kiev was likely banking on the ceasefire to provide a respite from shelling that could be used to evacuate or reinforce the troops in Debaltseve. But Alexander Zakharchenko, head of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic, said his forces would observe the ceasefire everywhere but near Debaltseve and would "stop any attempt to break out of the encirclement."

"There wasn't a word about Debaltseve in the [Minsk] agreement," Zakharchenko argued. "This means that Ukraine has simply betrayed the 5,000 people in this encirclement."

The sad part is he may be right. Poroshenko reportedly refused to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin for a "green corridor" to allow the Ukrainians to leave the city. Of the 16 hours the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia negotiated in Minsk, eight were spent arguing over whether Debaltseve was actually caught in a "kettle," the Russian term for a military encirclement, according to Andrei Kolesnikov, a Kremlin pool journalist who has been allowed extensive access to Putin in the past.

"Vladimir Putin insisted that it was, and that if a ceasefire was agreed, it would be strange if it wouldn't be violated: Those in the kettle will surely try to break out of it, and those who are boiling the kettle will try to gather the steam," Kolesnikov wrote in the newspaper Kommersant.

Despite posturing from many on the Ukrainian side that they won't give up Debaltseve, Jackson said many troops there want out. "We're all trying to leave," he said. "The only other option is death."

But Kiev has no way to rescue the thousands of troops hunkered down in trenches and dugouts around the city, not to mention up to 1,000 civilians who reportedly remain there. Both the highway and the fields north of Debaltseve are mined and under heavy rebel fire, according to a bearded Artemivsk ambulance driver with a braided ponytail who goes by the nom-de-guerre Kapulan.
Those who try to get through the gauntlet can either follow the burnt-out carcasses of vehicles that already hit mines in the fields, or drive down the highway as fast as possible, hoping to spot the thinly covered mines there, Kapulan said. His volunteer ambulance unit only has four working vehicles after mines destroyed two and shelling took out four.

The situation in Debaltseve is untenable because no one can resupply the fighters, said Alla Neschadym, a medic with the ambulance unit whose son Oleg is still fighting in the city. She blamed Kiev for failing to mount a mass military campaign to reinforce them or to negotiate a surrender or corridor for them to withdraw.

"You should either fight, or you should take them out, but to leave them there as cannon fodder isn't right," Neschadym said.

She called on the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and the Red Cross to participate in a humanitarian convoy to evacuate soldiers in the hopes that would prevent the rebels from shelling it, although neither of those groups is likely to take on the physical risk and political ramifications of such an operation. But something needs to be done, Neschadym insisted.

"We need an extraordinary solution," she said, "because there are many people still trapped there."

Follow Alec Luhn on Twitter: @ASLuhn

UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Feb 2015 03:00

Apparently it is happening: UBCNews has it before the rest of the Mainstream media of course!
Storm Bringer ‏@StormBringer15 20m20 minutes ago
Ukrainian soldiers are reported to have yielded themselves prisoners in large numbers in #Debaltseve - with no ammunition

tuumapomm ‏@tuumapomm 3h3 hours ago
Russian propaganda goes full retard again: "#Debaltseve residents report seeing black mercenaries looting." http://lifenews.ru/news/150000

Storm Bringer ‏@StormBringer15 25m25 minutes ago
the #Debaltseve pocket still persists, but soon to be seen like in Stalingrad (15 degrees below 0)
View conversation 0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites

Freepress ‏@ultimateOne 20m20 minutes ago

APU fighters surrendering en masse in #Debaltseve http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... s%2F150007

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 17 Feb 2015 05:59

Tuvaluan wrote:
Shreeman wrote:There is no proof "they" lied to a US politician. T


So the Senator's protests at being given doctored photos is just for effect? Wouldn't it be better for the senator to not say anything at all in that case? rather than say something and have Poroshenko's group give a lame non-response? all of this just to rebut the NYT article on the subject? Media coverage has been this way in the past too, except there was no social media to catch inconsistencies in the propaganda, sort of how news consumers confuse more sensational reportage of crime as being an indicator of actual increase in crime statistics.


Come on resident-e-tuvalu, forgetting colin-bin-powell, are we? No one cares about truth, the outcome is rigged but you still need powerpoint slides to waste the necessary time. Truth is stranger than fiction. No one lied to anyone, but in the speech. Random canned response, just like colin-bin-powell. Matter dead, concluded.

You are really over-emphasizing social media power. It is entirely disenfrenchised in the US exCept for shock/awe/gore subjects. The social media readers dont really vote.

Tuvaluan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 17 Feb 2015 06:43

You are really over-emphasizing social media power. It is entirely disenfrenchised in the US exCept for shock/awe/gore subjects. The social media readers dont really vote.


Shree Shreeman, You misunderstand. I think social media is pretty lame -- it can only destroy the lives of ordinary people...it swallows propaganda just like the other media, and amplifies falsehoods just like mass media. (I did mention Colin "YellowCake" powell and his fabrications in the UN before starting another war).

I just mean that for bored Tuvalu citizens that don't have electricity or cellphones, it is easier to see discrepancies between the official position and the random chatter by unknown people with verifiable creds of being closer to different sides of the game.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Feb 2015 08:14

Troop Brenegar ‏@autarkes 7 minutes ago

@andersostlund @MaxRTucker @rConflictNews #Ukraine #haiku No food, just water Highway mined stem to stern #Debaltseve holds.


Seems like "Da Boy Hu Stood On Da Burning Deck"

Here it is "Da Boys Who Crouched In Da Freezing Ruin".

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 17 Feb 2015 08:26

^^^ It is all a lie, comical Ali style. No one can defeat the superior western trained RightSector Cyborg army, and there is no cauldron, sorry, kettle. It is all Putin's propaganda, or it would be on BBC already.

Puts fingers in *both* ears until they meet in the middle --- lalalalalalala....


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