Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 10 Feb 2015 08:49

Some recent video's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcHCU2hvKq0
Ukrainian POW's from the Debaltsevo pocket. English sub-titles. A tank has also fallen into rebel hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pkY2INUCgE
Interview with a woman rebel officer. English subs.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Feb 2015 09:07

Tuvaluan wrote:If Merkel/EU/USA are pressing so hard, they must really think Russiais about to crumble under more pressure...but that does not sound right. What is this awesome strategy that everyone from Zbig to BO to Kerrey are being so smug about? :?: Must be something that Merkel buys if she is willing to back more sanctions against Russia and more weapons in Ukraine.


We have to wait and see in the next few days as to what happens in the next meeting with Putin. It may be the Russian logistics supply is weak and can not sustain an organized military engagement. There is doubt about Russian military professionalism and they may have corrupt generals in charge who are on western payrolls. Germany and France have been reasonable up to now trying to seek a political solution.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 10 Feb 2015 09:12

I have stopped watching videos. Previously it was women/children/old people suffering/crying. Now there is fresh blood and gore with no warning. A bit too graphic for me.

karthik: wait till supplies show up on the front. freshly repaired armor, heaps of ammo, brand new supplies, and heretofore not seen situational awareness in ukrainian side. Then eventually, actual weapons.

tuvaluan: its the way chips have fallen. someone has to dangle some sort of a carrot. Obama is not on talking terms, poodlistan is holding spy inquiries, hole-end is withholding mistral. Who is left. Greece? Merkel has to play this role whether she likes it or not. Everyone is going through the mature politician motions, and people are dying at the same rate in nigeria, iraq, syria, and yes, also ukraine.

Oh, I forgot ebola. And Afghanistan. And Yemen. And mali. And sudan. Ukraine will become syria like soon enough. I vote for armenia/azerbaijan next. Turkey ought to be interested in that.

MortW: Russia can keep a full scale going with ukraine practically forever. The west is banking on it.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 10 Feb 2015 09:33

Mort Walker wrote:
Germany and France have been reasonable up to now trying to seek a political solution.


Mort, They seem to be swinging on both sides of the fence -- Merkel's talk with Putin failed which means she is taking a position where Russia would lose. Merkel/Hollande seem like they put the hand in a bottle, got bitten and arm's swollen, and now they cannot get it out -- they are big time losers in this, along with Russia. USA could care less, they are willing to fight until the last Ukrainian.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 10 Feb 2015 10:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby disha » 10 Feb 2015 09:56

RSoami wrote:Merkel miscalculated. She never expected that it will come to a violent conflict.


Ah Merkel. :rotfl: She always miscalculates - she is a major disaster on the international arena. I guess in the back of her mind she is trying to avoid bifurcation of Germany!!!!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 10 Feb 2015 11:09

NYT has this article, which is incredible because:
- The Western journalist was actually in Donetsk (unlike 99% of the others).
- He spoke to rebels directly, instead of relying on helpful handouts given by Chocolate's Govt.
- No Anti-Russian bias

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/world/europe/on-front-lines-in-ukraine-rebels-are-upbeat-and-eager-to-advance.html?_r=1

There is similarly a British TV journalist - George, who speaks Russian and reports from the Rebel side and has far more
realistic reports than the mainstream channels.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2015 11:51

O'Bomber.“Russia obviously has an extraordinarily powerful military and you know, given the length of the Russian border with Ukraine, given the history between Russia and Ukraine, expecting that if Russia is determined that Ukraine can fully rebuff a Russian army has always been unlikely,” he said.

Obama, Merkel display ‘tactical disagreements’ over Ukraine
February 10, 2015
http://rt.com/news/230779-obama-merkel- ... greements/
The option of supplying Kiev with “lethal defensive weapons” is on the table, Barack Obama said in a joint press conference with Angela Merkel. However, the German chancellor reiterated there is no “military solution” to the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

“The possibility of lethal defensive weapons is one of those options that’s being examined,” the US president said during a joint press conference with Merkel in Washington.

“I want to emphasize that a decision has not yet been made,” Obama said when questioned about weapons a second time. “It is true that if, in fact, diplomacy fails, what I’ve asked my team to do is to look at all options. What other means can we put in place to change Mr. Putin’s calculus?”

Merkel – who conducted direct negotiations with Vladimir Putin in Moscow last week, alongside French President Francois Hollande – struck a less antagonistic, if equally firm, tone.

“We continue to pursue a diplomatic solution, although we have suffered a lot of setbacks. But, I've always said I don't see a military solution in this conflict,” she said through a translator.

Merkel may fly to Minsk on Wednesday for four-way talks that will include Ukraine, Russia, Germany, and France, in another attempt to resurrect the increasingly irrelevant ceasefire roadmap signed back in September.

“I myself, actually, would not be able to live with not having made this attempt,” said Merkel, who still accuses Moscow of “violating” the initial terms of the Minsk treaty and continuing support to anti-Kiev rebels.

Yet both leaders appeared somewhat skeptical at the prospect of a diplomatic solution.

“If, at a certain point in time, one has to say that a success is not possible, even if one puts every effort into it, then the United States and Europe have to sit together and try and explore further possibilities, what one can do,” admitted the 60-year-old German chancellor.

READ MORE: EU widens sanctions against Moscow and Ukraine rebels, implementation delayed

Although the EU has postponed new sanctions against Russia ahead of the peace talks, Obama insisted that current sanctions “need to remain fully in force.” The US leader admitted that current sanctions have “not yet dissuaded Mr. Putin from following the course that he is on.”

Yet despite admitting some tactical disagreements, the two leaders tried to present a common front.

“Russian aggression has only reinforced the unity between the United States, Germany and other European allies,” the president said. “There’s going to continue to be a strong, unified response between the United States and Europe – that’s not going to change,” said Obama.

“For somebody who comes from Europe, I can only say, if we give up this principle of territorial integrity, we will not be able to maintain the peaceful order of Europe. It's essential,” said Merkel, condemning Crimea’s secession from Ukraine, as well as the splintering of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions.





Moscow has always rejected accusations of military involvement in Ukraine, and says it will not accept any negotiating ultimatums from the West.

“The Ukrainian crisis was not caused by the Russian Federation. It emerged in response to the attempts of the US and its western allies – who consider themselves ‘winners’ of the Cold War – to impose their will everywhere,” Putin said in a recent interview with Al-Ahram.

READ MORE: Giving ultimatums isn’t the way to talk to President Putin – Kremlin
The Ukraine conflict began last April when Kiev sent regular forces and volunteer battalions to the southeastern Donetsk and Lugansk regions, after people there refused to recognize the country’s new, coup-imposed authorities. The death toll in the Ukraine conflict has exceeded 5,300 people, with over 12,000 injured, according to UN estimates.



http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... e-military

US president avoids issue of sending arms to Ukraine during joint news conference with Angela Merkel on how to counter Russian aggression

Dan Roberts in Washington and Ian Traynor in Brussels
Monday 9 February 2015

Barack Obama has thrown his support behind German diplomatic efforts to contain Russia in Ukraine, hinting that military alternatives under consideration by the White House remain largely symbolic and fraught with danger.

In a joint press conference with chancellor Angela Merkel aimed at emphasising western unity, the president largely ignored pressure from some in Washington to send arms to Ukraine, preferring instead to keep any future options for ratcheting US support vague.

“Russian aggression has only reinforced the unity of the United States and Germany and our allies and partners around the world,” Obama said. “We continue to encourage a diplomatic resolution to this issue, and as diplomatic efforts continue this week, we are in absolute agreement that the 21st century cannot stand idle and simply allow the borders of Europe to be redrawn at the barrel of the gun.”

Analysis/ Angela Merkel assailed from all sides in drive to pacify Russia and US on Ukraine

The German chancellor has emerged as Europe’s lone champion, but she faces a daunting and potentially thankless task

Immediately after the meeting, the Republican chair of the House armed services committee announced the launch of a bill in Congress to arm Ukraine that would probably be vetoed by the White House.

Asked if the US and Germany were playing “good cop, bad cop”, Obama stressed that his punitive options remained largely limited to increasing the economic cost of Russian actions rather than preventing it outright.

“Russia obviously has an extraordinarily powerful military and you know, given the length of the Russian border with Ukraine, given the history between Russia and Ukraine, expecting that if Russia is determined that Ukraine can fully rebuff a Russian army has always been unlikely,” he said.

“But what we have said is that the international community, working together, can ratchet up the costs for the violation of the core principle of sovereignty and territorial integrity, and that’s exactly what we’ve done.”

Merkel also acknowledged that the success of her negotiations was far from assured – suggesting both leaders see little prospect of preventing Vladimir Putin from continuing to support Ukrainian separatists if he is determined to ride out the economic costs of sanctions.

“There is anything but an assured success in all of this; I have to be very clear about this,” she said of latest peace talks in Minsk. “But if, at a certain point in time, one has to say that a success is not possible, even if one puts every effort into it, then the United States and Europe have to sit together and try and explore further possibilities, what one can do … the foreign ministers of the European Union last week already tasked the commission to think about further possible sanctions.”

The relatively resigned tone of their press conference comes in stark contrast to some in Washington, including the incoming defense secretary Ashton Carter, who favours more military support to Ukraine, but Obama made clear even this option was limited to the possibility of helping Kiev fight Ukrainian separatists, not Russia directly.

“It is true that if, in fact, diplomacy fails, what I’ve asked my team to do is to look at all options. What other means can we put in place to change Mr Putin’s calculus? And the possibility of lethal defensive weapons is one of those options that’s being examined,” he said.

“But I have not made a decision about that yet … it’s not based on the idea that Ukraine could defeat a Russian army that was determined; it is rather to see whether or not there are additional things we can do to help Ukraine bolster its defenses in the face of separatist aggression.”

In perhaps the only sop to more hawkish critics, Obama did argue that providing weapons should be seen as a continuation of existing support rather than an abrupt escalation.

“There’s not going to be any specific point at which I say, ‘Ah, you know, clearly lethal defensive weapons would be appropriate here’,” he said. “It is our ongoing analysis of what can we do to dissuade Russia from encroaching further and further on Ukrainian territory.”

Nonetheless, both leaders made clear that they regarded current diplomatic negotiations as the only realistic option for solving the crisis and rejected the notion of Germany acting as go-between for Russia and the US.

“We are called upon now to come up with solutions, but not in the sense of a mediator, but we also stand up for the interests of the European peaceful order,” said Merkel. “What’s important for me is that we stand very closely together on the question of a new, renewed diplomatic effort.”

Earlier on Monday, Putin demanded that the Ukrainian government had to conduct direct talks with pro-Russia separatist rebels if there was to be any chance of agreeing a durable ceasefire in eastern Ukraine.

In the midst of the most intensive week of diplomacy since the Ukraine crisis erupted a year ago and with western leaders warning of a major upsurge in violence if this week’s negotiations fail, there was scant sign of any let-up in the war of words between the Kremlin and western capitals.

“The Ukrainian crisis was not caused by the Russian Federation,” said Putin in remarks posted on the Kremlin website. “It emerged in response to the attempts of the US and its western allies – who consider themselves ‘winners’ of the cold war – to impose their will everywhere.”

The remarks reinforced western suspicions that Putin has never accepted the outcome of the collapse of Soviet and eastern European communism in 1989-91 and is engaged in an attempt to revise the results of the post-cold war order in Europe.

In advance of the Minsk summit on Wednesday, Putin has presented a nine-page peace plan which demands that the separatists be treated as equals in the negotiations, expands the territory under their control under a new ceasefire line, insists on a halt to Ukrainian attacks on the rebel-held territory and also that the government in Kiev should continue to supply public funding to the rebel-held areas beyond its control.

With Ukraine crippled, unstable, and in economic freefall, Putin appeared to have the stronger hand. In return for ceasefire guarantees in Minsk, the west and Kiev may have to agree to the new ceasefire line and cede greater “autonomous” territory to the rebels.


The French, attending the Minsk talks, lent credence to that view. “These people have been fighting a war against each other. It would be hard for them to live together,” President François Hollande told French television. The rebel-held eastern areas needed “strong autonomy”.

EU foreign ministers met in Brussels to slap new sanctions on the rebels and on Russian officials. But the decisions were put on hold to give the latest talks a chance.

Obama sidesteps Ukraine military option but backs German diplomatic effort

O'Bomber knows the reality. The UKR cannot win a mil. victory against the DR supported by Russia.The logistics are completely in favour of Russia,which can send at will as much men,material and Muscovy "mead" to the DR. Thus ,a political solution granting a large measure of autonomy to the DR is inevitable if the UKR/Choco soldier,"Willy Wanker" wants to survive.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 10 Feb 2015 15:19

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... SF20150210

Ukbapzi forces have launched an offensive near Mariupol it seems.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 10 Feb 2015 15:29

The "azov" have pushed forward. As far as discernable it is 50/50 : draw them out in the open instead of fighting in mariupol vs dont distract from debaltsevo by causing a ruckus down south. Not sure what the azov push yields even if it gets to novoazovsk.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby vijaykarthik » 10 Feb 2015 15:52

they say that's its mostly only volunteer forces on the Ukies end! Queer.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 10 Feb 2015 19:28

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... M620150210

Ukraine parliament agrees to dismissal of top prosecutor

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Feb 2015 20:04

Pro-Deomcracy Secular Freedom fighters claim to have completed the protective envelope around the UkBapzis in Debaltseve.

Meanwhile, vodka being shaken, not stirred.
around 2,000 Russian troops have started exercises in southern Russia, the Russian news agency Interfax reported on Tuesday.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 10 Feb 2015 20:48

around 2,000 Russian troops have started exercises in southern Russia, the Russian news agency Interfax reported on Tuesday.

Actually they are exercising both in southern Russia as well as Crimea. An operation would cut Ukraine into two.

Meanwhile Britain `the doyen of independent foreign policy` say this.

Britain 'reserves right' to arm Ukraine: minister

http://news.yahoo.com/britain-reserves- ... 31223.html

Now can someone point out to me a single instance when Britain has said aything anything different from US. Whats the need to say anything I poochh.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 10 Feb 2015 20:54

RSoami wrote:Now can someone point out to me a single instance when Britain has said aything anything different from US. Whats the need to say anything I poochh.


So the brishiters are speaking through both sides of their two faces, as is their norm -- distinctly recall a recent statement by the brits saying exactly the opposite. Almost seems like Brishits displaying ingrained pakiness with such H&D statements to tell themselves they are still relevant...maybe they want to act as the US's proxy and provide deniability to the US by pretending to fund Ukrainazis with US money.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/reuters-supplying-weapons-to-ukraine-would-escalate-conflict-british-minister-379744.html


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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 11 Feb 2015 08:57

Shreeman wrote:The "azov" have pushed forward. As far as discernable it is 50/50 : draw them out in the open instead of fighting in mariupol vs dont distract from debaltsevo by causing a ruckus down south. Not sure what the azov push yields even if it gets to novoazovsk.


The Ukie offensive towards Novoazovsk was indeed led by the volunteer `Azov' Brigade - which comprised a lot of foreign
fighters (incl a Neo Nazi Crotian unit). Ukie army probably felt it was about time the foreigners did some real fighting.
Rebel TV reported last night that the offensive failed.
Pic of Azov men taken prisoner:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9flB7bIYAAJBBO.png:large

In a separate incident, the Ukie helicopter base which was some 50km from the front was hit by a rocket attack and took
heavy casualties incl. helicopters. This has created controversy, as the base was outside the known range of the Grad and
Uran MLRS systems with the rebels. Video of the rockets hitting the base (some fell in a civilian area)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc9Kh-OL4sQ

The possibilities which are being discussed in Russian & Ukrainian media:
- The actual rebel positions were more to the West than was being admitted. OR.
- The rebels have got of a SMERSH system with a 60km range (which was hitherto only with the Ukies) intact. OR.
- Ukies hit their own base either by mistake, or because Chocolate wants to create an incident on the eve of Minsk talks.
Last edited by Deans on 11 Feb 2015 15:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 10:01

^^The separatists have denied firing rockets at kramatorsk. So who is firing rockets at the city.

Also Azov battalion launches an offensive. Looks like they informed only on twitter or facebook on the offensive. Then the Ukraine Junta comes to know of it. And then they declare that tehUkrainian national guard has launched the offensive. :lol:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31357588

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Philip » 11 Feb 2015 12:37

UB,you mean,"vodka being stirred not shaken!" It will be the UKR "chocolates" of Willy Wanker who will be well and truly shaken.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby dnivas » 11 Feb 2015 12:56

Caludron sealed according to Rebels


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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 11 Feb 2015 13:17

RSoami wrote:^^The separatists have denied firing rockets at kramatorsk. So who is firing rockets at the city.

Also Azov battalion launches an offensive. Looks like they informed only on twitter or facebook on the offensive. Then the Ukraine Junta comes to know of it. And then they declare that tehUkrainian national guard has launched the offensive. :lol:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31357588


The BBC naturally talks of only the dead civilians in Kramatorsk, ignoring the casualties at the airfield, or the pounding
the city of Gorlovka (the alleged source of the rockets) took when the Ukies were trying to reduce pressure on the
Debaltsevo salient.
From the edge of Gorlovka to Kramatorsk the 'straight line' distance is about 50 km (google maps). The max rage of the
Uran and Grad systems the rebels have used so far, is 38 km. The Smerch has a 60 km range. Assuming it was kept
10 km behind the front, it would just be able to reach Kramatorsk. However, there would be no reason for rebels to
suddenly target it - the civilians are Pro Russia and all available artillery was being used to reduce the Debaltsevo pocket
before the Minsk talks, unless intel showed for e.g. the presence of a lot of helicopters at the airfield, which would have made
it a tempting target.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 13:27

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... HX20150211

19 Ukbapzis die in Debaltseve. It will really be Ilovaisk 2 it seems.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Deans » 11 Feb 2015 13:35

In 1943, in almost the same place and same time, a similar situation as the Debeltsevo pocket took place, during the 3rd battle of Kharkov (Feb-Mar 1943). At that time, the Germans, facing encirclement by the Red Army, were able to break out and Von Manstein, launching one of the finest counterattacks of the war, turned the tables on the Red Army.
However, given the competence the Ukrainian generals and army have displayed so far, I wouldn't be comparing them to Von Manstein and the Wehrmacht anytime soon.
Last edited by Deans on 11 Feb 2015 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 11 Feb 2015 13:43

Re. kramatorsk, a UAV was shot down before the rockets. Re. debaltseve, todays "peace talks" may have something to say about it. How many trapped in debaltseve are veterns of previous exchanges? Re. reuters, the numbers are all funny -- from every one, including OSCE -- including the 3000-8000 trapped ranges.

If it really were several thousand, can UA really afford to lose this much armor and men? Trained soldiers dont grow on trees, even if there are unlimited Poles watering them.

Why arent the UkIes trying to save their lot, even if by helicopter evacuations? Or is it beyond them to get anyone out? In that case, shouldnt this be a surrender negotiation?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 14:19

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 80211.html

Lviv battalion commander killed near Debaltseve

Its the same guy who had dismissed 32 personnel from Lviv police for refusing to go to donbas.
Now he has been dismissed. Whatever he was doing in debaltseve.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 14:26

http://www.dw.de/russia-denies-ukraines ... a-18248603

Russia has denied a request to restructure Ukraine's $3 billion debt due later this year. The Finance Ministry in Moscow said it expects the Ukrainian government to settle its arrears in full by the agreed upon deadline.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 11 Feb 2015 14:28

^^ Whatever in the world is a Su-55?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 16:11

Sukhoi 25 + Sukhoi 30 = Sukhoi 55

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby deejay » 11 Feb 2015 18:33

Shreeman wrote:^^ Whatever in the world is a Su-55?


Well, if you check the PAK FA/FGFA thread on the mil forum there is an infographic. This infographic says the Indian FGFA in Russia will be Su 55.

Not sure about which Su 55 these discussions are.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Feb 2015 22:29

RSoami wrote:Sukhoi 25 + Sukhoi 30 = Sukhoi 55


Another unreliable Russian fighter aircraft which has poor service availability?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 11 Feb 2015 22:45

According to liveuamap.com, which is clearly a ukrainazi/US supported site, so this can be considered as propaganda against the Ukrainian freedom fighters in Donetsk.

Claims that "russian army" shelled the Ukrainazi army base in kramatorsk with "mid range" missiles and that Russian UAV was shot down in that location.

"pensioner" with AK-47 held in mariupol bus station..doesn't say which side he was trying to support.

Current battlefront on the outskirts of Mariupol in Shyrokyne.

Regional ukrainazi army enlistment office in Livne also bombed/shelled.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 23:42

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... t-47421931

Ukraine is becoming Pakistan faster than we thought.
“I would like to emphasise that I, the government, and the [parliament] are prepared to take a decision declaring martial law on the teritory of the entire country,” Poroshenko was quoted as saying in Kiev. “In no case will I flinch from this decision if the irresponsible actions of the aggressor lead to a serious escalation of the conflict.”


So why the martial law.

Putin appeared to be in the stronger position to dictate the terms of any deal in Minsk, while Poroshenko appears increasingly weakened and politically beleaguered.


He is beleaguered probably because of people running away rather than join the army and fight for his wealth and presidency.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 11 Feb 2015 23:54

I suppose it could just be propaganda: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/11 ... ace-talks/

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 11 Feb 2015 23:58

^^ correct news. no propaganda.

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/us-a ... s-1.328974

US Army to start training Ukrainian troops, commander says


Who trained the Iraq army which is a force to reckon with in west Asia btw.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Feb 2015 00:06

Perhaps US forces can wear Uk uniforms and fight the Russians posing as rebels. Uk forces are generally unprofessional and have abandoned posts before. It would be an act of war.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby RSoami » 12 Feb 2015 00:09

^^Are you sure US forces will fare any better on ground. :?:

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 12 Feb 2015 00:11

^^^ The brirish are shipping hardware, the americans are sending men. Its not about training, it is to say you cant run over the entire country. Keep the fighting line east of where the "training" base is.

Who invested what in ukraine to get us here -- Biden/Biden's son? I dont see any point in starting IED mubaraks in ukraine, and they have already started. Werent a sozen proxy wars already going on enough?

I dont get who in Russia was doing what -- to have brought us here. It doesnt matter what the outcome of the talks is, the population of ukraine is at each other's throats. No ceasefire is changing that.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 12 Feb 2015 00:18

Even if the ukrainazi army is useless, it is no skin of the US's nose, since it appears that all the US really wants to keep Ukraine burning in the long term to bleed russia in a war it cannot afford, and to put pressure on the economic front by running it out of the SWIFT and sanctioning trade with its important trade partners, and keeping oil prices low. But that may have the unintended consequence of all oil trade moving away from the US $ over time.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby member_23370 » 12 Feb 2015 02:09

How many american body bags will have to come from ukraine for this nonsense to stop? training is one thing but this is getting ridiculous. Hopefully better sense prevails.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Shreeman » 12 Feb 2015 02:50

The shock over body bags is over. That problem was solved in 2008 by offering naturalization at the end of basic training as I understand. Body bags (or worse no bodies) are coming home from syria and iraq. And syrian training is just getting started, like ukraine.

Obama has changed his personal tone to -- wars are fine things. He will have overseen Libya, Syria, Georgia, Ukraine and the multiple israel/palestine events. In a way, no other president saw/started this many wars. The notion that india/pakistan can fight a low intensity war without nukes now extends to US/russia can fight a low intensity war. This does not bode well.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Postby Tuvaluan » 12 Feb 2015 06:25

Given the recent attacks on the hospital in Donetsk and chemical factory, it appears that the American miltary is there to do the top level tactical planning for the ukrainazi army and to train them to acheives those tasks with a few leadership position held by mercenaries or non formal US troops. The US has not stated any intention to send in actual troops -- US mercenaries coming back in body bags is not a political issue, so that seems the most likely. Anyway, all those ex-US military/Xi/Blackwater type people who formed "security companies" after the Iraq war now need new contracts to go and kill people somewhere, as long as they get money and weapons to get the job done....like a match made in heaven really.


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