Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

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Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuan » 04 Mar 2015 02:23

As the whole world is coming forward to combat ISIS, I would like to share here my opinion regarding how to fight ISIS and eventually obliterate them just like the Sri Lankan military defeated the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) just six years ago.

ISIS, as an offshoot of Al Qaeda, continues to commit atrocities against humanity in Iraq, Syria and now into Libya. Unless this fast spreading violence and hatred is stopped, the carnage will most likely expand throughout the Middle East and Asia in the near future.

In reading Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) in the ongoing counterterrorism operations in Iraq, Syria and Libya, I have noticed a pattern, in the Islamic State terrorists’ “modus operandi”, that of a spider.

Spiders have eight legs and two body parts - a head region (cephalothorax) and an abdomen. Most spiders have toxic venom, which they use to kill their prey.

So if the international community wants to get rid of ISIS, hypothetically speaking, they have to get rid of the head region of ISIS, the “cephalothorax” of the spider, instead of fighting with its eight legs.

Of course, they will replace it with another head, so get rid of the other one too, then the next one and so on. All we need is accurate and effective tactical military intelligence collection. I feel that the international intelligence agencies have a bigger role to play, than just being the eyes and ears of any nation, with feet of clay, when faced with an enemy of many different faces. Recommendations for an appropriate tradecraft to achieve such a role are the need of the day. There is NO truth to search for, there is no absolute truth, and everything is subjective! But the kind of role intelligence play in deterrence is what paramount! And achieving A STATE OF GLOBAL DETERRENCE is what I consider the bottom line.

In conclusion, since Al Qaeda, Taliban, and now ISIS are using exactly the same modus operandi and tradecraft as the LTTE did in Sri Lanka, I believe that the international community could combat ISIS in a similar model that Sri Lankan military did against the LTTE in order to obliterate them.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby pravula » 04 Mar 2015 03:36

IBTL?

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2015 06:00

Why IBTL? Shouldnt India worry about this ISIS when it is still far away?

Looks like Iran is doing good job.

Tuan, The Sunni world and their backers : open and hidden don't want to combat ISIS.

Its only Shia world:Iran and Syria, Shia parts of Iraq that are combating ISIS.

The spider technique was developed in Afghanistan jihad by the masters.

BTW, Halaku Khan cut of the spider head of the Assassins by storming their castle in Syria and ended the menace of the ISIS of those days.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 07:28

Why obliterate ISIS? Sunnis fighting Shias and fighting everyone else, including the west. When did the west ever want to obliterate an Islamic threat to India? ISIS is no worse than Pakistan army (remember Bangladesh) and Lashkar e Toiba (Mumbai 26/11)

Suppose we help "obliterate" ISIS tomorrow. Who would help us obliterate the Paki army and LeT?

This nonsense of taking cues from what the west wants gets my goat. A few years ago on BRF we were worrying that Al Qaeda will attack India and that we should join the fight against Al Qaeda. Then we said "Ohh Taliban bad bad baaad. we must fight Taliban. Now bijiness of "obliterating" ISIS

Pakistan army and LeT have never openly attacked the west. They hate India.The west tolerates them

Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS openly attack the west. What's in it for us to do this lungi dance of "obliterating" them? This IMO one way we slave our attitudes to what the west wants.

ISI are Sunnis. Saudis and Arabs are Sunnis. Pakis are mostly Sunnis. "Obliterating ISIS" is like obliterating all Tamil speaking people. Pah. Let us get some sense into our heads. ISIS is no innocent baby - but as long as they hit each other and the west we can cherry pick what we like and what we don't like. Just like the west and China do to us.
Last edited by shiv on 04 Mar 2015 16:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuan » 04 Mar 2015 07:31

I completely agree with you Ramana ji.

If you read my analogy; what I was trying pinpoint is that, while ISIS's headquarters (cephalothorax) is located in Syria, their survival (abdomen) depends on how much area they control in Iraq. Thus before this ISIS "spider" transform into "multi-head" and "multi-pronged" the international community has to get rid of them.

And Shiv, ISIS is not yet a direct threat to India, but give it another 2 to 3 years, they will be well into the Indian subcontinent.
Last edited by Tuan on 04 Mar 2015 07:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 07:35

Tuan wrote:I completely agree with you Ramana ji.

If you read my analogy; what I was trying pinpoint is that, while ISIS's headquarters (cephalothorax) is located in Syria, their survival (abdomen) depends on how much area they control in Iraq. Thus before this ISIS "spider" transform into "multi-head" and "multi-pronged" the international community has get rid of them.

wtf has the "international community" done to rid us of the Pakistan problem?

I totally disagree with the premise of this thread. This is American/western worries being copy pasted into Indian interests

We Indians have this strange Nehruvian tendency to believe that we are "international citizens" with transnational interests where we help keep law and order across the world. The sooner we get rid of this nonsensical thought process the better we will be able to think.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 07:40

Tuan wrote:And Shiv, ISIS is not yet a direct threat to India, but give it another 2 to 3 years, they will be well into the Indian subcontinent.

:rotfl: LOl that is what was said about Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
It is the Pakistan army and LeT that is a real existing problem. Why are you so soo worried about ISIS? is ISIS more powerful than the Paki army - an ISIS clone in itself. I put it to you that you are simply ill informed about the threats posed by Paki army to us and are simply parroting out a western worry on BRF like many did about Al Qaeda and Taliban

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuan » 04 Mar 2015 07:53

well, just check out ISIS's ideology, aim and its caliphate map that all points to one fact: it is a threat to international peace and security just like Paki army and LeT.

What ISIS Really Wants
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ts/384980/

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby pravula » 04 Mar 2015 08:56

ramana wrote:Why IBTL? Shouldnt India worry about this ISIS when it is still far away?

Looks like Iran is doing good job.

Tuan, The Sunni world and their backers : open and hidden don't want to combat ISIS.

Its only Shia world:Iran and Syria, Shia parts of Iraq that are combating ISIS.

The spider technique was developed in Afghanistan jihad by the masters.

BTW, Halaku Khan cut of the spider head of the Assassins by storming their castle in Syria and ended the menace of the ISIS of those days.


Because you can never destroy an idea :(

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby krithivas » 04 Mar 2015 09:02

ISIS is another manifestation of the ~1000 year Holy war between the Jihadists and the Crusaders. India successfully dealt with hordes of Jihadists and waves of Crusaders for a very long time. No shock, no awe.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby disha » 04 Mar 2015 09:02

I wanted to come earlier and put in IB4TL.

I am doing now to do IB4TL.

India has no case in obliterating Islamic State ISIS. If the non-uniformed ISIS and non-pakjabi ISIS takes over formally Bakistan from the uniformed ISIS, then India will deal with it as it currently deals with Bakistan., or whatever option it chooses to avail at that stage.

ISIS is no danger to world peace or security. The world does not revolve around ME.

ISIS is just another cyst in ME. ME has several cysts - some contained, some drained some dried. ISIS is one of the larger cyst. In that sense, ISIS may be disturbing peace in ME.

Unlike Bakistan., ISIS has no access to nuke or nuke carrying missiles. Neither it has access to resources - monetary or scientific or both to acquire that. And even if it acquires it (only after taking over Bakistan)., then again it might not be danger to world peace (will it target Brazil, Peru, Chile, Timbuktu, Beijing, Ulan Bator, Bora Bora, Leichenstein simultaneously? I do not think so). At best it will be another rent collecting nuisance.

Given that, IB4TL. India has no case in "obliterating Islamic state (ISIS)".

Reopen this thread when the non-pakjabi ISIS from the ME takes over Bakistan. Then we can discuss how India can deal with it.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 09:23

ISIS was created by the KSA scum and they are being controlled and waging war with US leftovers from Iraq. Why the Frack should India focus on ISIS and lose focus on the real threat that is the LeT and the other terrorist scum being payrolled and operated by the pakistani army? And the "international community" can go and commit some auto-fellatio, which seems to be their favorite pasttime anyway, being the world's most glorious and awesome civilization and all. How about the mot#%#$%ers in the US state dept stop fighting wars in Ukraine and fight the ISIS rather than trying to get other countries to wage the wars they started and then lost miserably...oh wait, it is called a "pullout" these days.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 04 Mar 2015 09:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby devesh » 04 Mar 2015 09:26

it is not surprising why we continuously loose land to Jihadi advance generation after generation. the comments on this thread are a testament to this.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby devesh » 04 Mar 2015 09:27

a nation that has persistently been a target of Jihad must necessarily view every strain and instance of Jihad as a viral disease that deserves extermination...otherwise, the survival of that nation cannot be guaranteed.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 09:28

it is not surprising why we continuously loose land to Jihadi advance generation after generation. the comments on this thread are a testament to this.


Really now? So these americans payroll the mofos in the KSA and support the terrorists in the paki army, and India is supposed to fight these aholes created and funded by the americans? Stupidity is obviously more abundant than hydrogen as someone said. Only a f***ing cretin would fight someone else's war and pretend it is in their own best interests -- if and when ISIS becomes a threat to India, we will sure as hell know about it. We don't need the americans and chinese telling us that ISIS is a threat in India --- Indian intel agencies are keeping track of ISIS and their sympathizers in India, and the NSA and other heads of Indian intel agencies have explicitly states ISIS is far less of a threat to India today, than the LeT and other paki terrorist groups operating in India under different names.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Shankk » 04 Mar 2015 09:45

devesh wrote:a nation that has persistently been a target of Jihad must necessarily view every strain and instance of Jihad as a viral disease that deserves extermination...otherwise, the survival of that nation cannot be guaranteed.


You are right in stating that India should be cautious about all strands of Islam ( I will add Christianity too) but agree more with Shiv that this is not our fight. Our involvement at this point should stop at keeping our eyes open. At this time India has no dog in this fight. We already have ISIS just next door and have been fighting them since last many decades all the while west supported the same ISIS. We should stick to keeping our eyes open and fighting the ISIS next door rather than picking fights in that part of the world.

This is a fight between Muslims and Christians and we should strive to stay out of it as long as possible.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2015 09:46

T calm down. Tuan is exploring how ISIS can be taken out. Why go hyper and stop all discussion? Maybe it applies to all other jihadist groups.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 09:51

Ramanaji, so if ISIS really required taking out, why all this foot dragging by countries that created and armed the ISIS in the first place? What is the upside to have the ISIS distracted from their real targets in Western Asia, and focus on India? ISIS remaining focussed on creating mayhem in the middle east seems like the best outcome for countries like India --- the important thing seems to be to keep ISIS's focus on countries that want the ISIS to look elsewhere for targets. India should allow ISIS to keep their focus where it currently is in west asia/EU. These same EU/NATO scum kept India out of discussions on Afghanisthan, and India went alone...nothing has changed since then.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Shankk » 04 Mar 2015 09:52

What is the point in spending any time, energy or bandwidth in solving someone else's problem? We have enough problems of our own. Other jihadi groups are being discussed in other threads and the biggest jihadi group has its own dedicated thread.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 09:56

India can support the Shia factions lead by Iran to destroy the Sunni regimes who are covertly supporting ISIS while pretending to be against it -- if the Sunni bigots hate the shias, then India must assist the Shias in destroying these sunni bigots, via only moral and diplomatic support of course. No reason to paint a target on our foreheads is the bottomline, especially when there are those with targets on their backs with the ISIS focussing on them.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Shankk » 04 Mar 2015 10:10

^^^^ That is not workable for two reasons

1. Supporting Iran goes against Israel sensitivities. That relation is more important for India than this fight.
2. Iran will certainly like the support but the ROI for us is very poor. Our support to Iran will at best be half hearted that will not fetch us anything in reciprocal terms and Iran already has a solid support from Russia and China.

Besides Shia Iran is no good for India as is evident from history.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby harbans » 04 Mar 2015 10:36

Some comments:

1. India has not successfully fought off Islamic hordes. Yes it has had major successes, but it has lost large tracts of land: Afghanistan, Pak, BD and more on the way as internally demographic consolidation happens every ticking second. Let us not buy and propagate the rhetoric that India has been successful in that effort. Draws many into complacency about the problem that still persists.

2. IS type cruelty is not new to the ideology. It has happened in India, happened in JK, happened in BD/71, Afghanistan and so on. Its happening in Nigeria, Somalia..Only here they are using cameras, making slick videos and it's happening in territories the US fought last 12 years to retain and control.

3. The military component of the fight against IS is probably 10% of the real effort to eliminate the scourge. The scourge is what produces/d Al Shabab, Boko Haram, Taliban, ISIS, Ghazis, Ghaznavis, LeT, PA and so on. The simple truth staring at all of us is that all these groups and so have all those who perpetuated this kind of inhumanity in the last 1400 years take inspiration from the very core doctrine of the ideology. There is no option for Non adherents of the ideology but to delegitimize with conviction many of the aspects of the doctrine.

4. But for 3 to happen, there is an awakening required not only in non adherents, but also in adherents of the ideology who are revolted by what they see. We cannot have large sections of people saying "All religions preach peace", "No religion preaches inhumanity" etc. Cliched simplistic rhetoric is breeding legitimacy of the ideology that spawns these terror groups.

5. We need to identify in our own nations context what values/ ideas/ tenets represent the idea of humanity. Ergo get to Dharmic basics. Hammer them as essential. Fight hard ideologically, by force to defend those tenets. We will prevail.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby JE Menon » 04 Mar 2015 10:54

>>So if the international community wants to get rid of ISIS, hypothetically speaking, they have to get rid of the head region of ISIS, the “cephalothorax” of the spider, instead of fighting with its eight legs.

Tuan, the trouble seems to be locating the head, and to figure out why it's doing what it is doing... Rest assured that to the extent that ISIS is fighting India, India is taking the fight to it... So far, not much has been detected except for a few Pakistanis trying to insert "Kashmir" into the propagandu videos. There are people who have been abducted and there are negotiations underway to secure their release. Let's see.

India has been fighting this sort of impulse a long time now, there have been times when the prevailing civilisation has even been overwhelmed and ruled by it, but as you can see, the civilisation has never succumbed; the civilisation was wounded, severely, but has continued to prevail - and for the last 60 years or so, the leakage of territory to these religiobots has ceased. It is unlikely in the near future that a reversal will be seen, and in fact prospects for recovery of land are not laughable. My personal feeling is that we can rest with some assurance that matters are broadly in hand - unless shit goes nuclear; and then no civilisation will prevail. On that too, we can rest with some assurance that matters are broadly in hand.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2015 11:00

Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden bloodletting both of sectarian Shia/Sunni variant and sub-sectarian Salafi/Other variant besides Intra-Abrahamic blood-letting pitting Mohammaddens against Christists are no concern of India in the absence of tangible support against Islamic Republic of Pakistan fomented Mohammadden Terrorism targeting India.

India has no dog in this fight for/against ISIS and should stay well away.

Thread premise as pointed out by Shiv is flawed ab initio.

IB4TL.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby KLNMurthy » 04 Mar 2015 11:05

ramana wrote:T calm down. Tuan is exploring how ISIS can be taken out. Why go hyper and stop all discussion? Maybe it applies to all other jihadist groups.

Taken out by whom? Is it India's job to take out ISIS? In that case, why not take out Saudi Arabia first? Or Shabab or Boko Haram? Or, here's a quirky idea, why not take out TSP?

If we are prepared to live with TSP and even do papi-jhapi chai biskoot, what goes of our father if purer-than-pures move their psycho troops from one pocket to another?

If we are exploring ways for the coalition of the supari-pawars to take out ISIS, I suppose that could be some sort of intellectual exercise. But even a very short run of the exercise will reveal that the supari-pawars are stubbornly pretending to be blind, and lying as loudly as possible, with all the power at their command. That was the whole point of the Atlantic Monthly article. Did people actually read the article before citing it as authority?

So, other than asking the supari-pawars to stop lying to themselves and the world, what else is there to do? Maybe we can stop making nonsensical contra-factual statements like "the whole world is coming forward to combat ISIS?"

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Yayavar » 04 Mar 2015 11:39

From Indian point of view how is ISIS any different from Pakis or the myriad terrorist organisations that ISI manifests in? Let them first determine whose abdomen can grow to ingest the other. Both they have to cross Afghanistan and Iran first.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Singha » 04 Mar 2015 11:42

one of the things about islam is it never exists in a stable equilibrium unless one caliph rules everyone with a iron hand and puts the fear into every heart. the artificial state we see now of powerful sunni and shia kingdoms existing side by side cannot be a durable situation....and it has rightly unravelled into a power grab and land war.

my prediction is around 10 million casualties in the middle east and north africa in the coming decade as organized govt collapses and warlords rule the roost...think afghanistan but 30x bigger tract of territory. some will be ethnic, some religious, some even nationalistic but all equally ruthless, well armed, hard fighting and deeply committed. baghdadi is just one , there will be many once the core of ISIS is splintered by iraqi militias by the coming winter. all will seek sponsors and sugar daddies, like the kurds have US in their corner for now.

agriculture will fail and lack of investment from a unified central govt in irrigation and power generation will accelerate this failure.
animals will be rounded up and eaten by the armies marching around, rather than be kept for milk, eggs and farming. education is
already collapsing.

libya, nigeria and egypt are likely to go under first.

india can probably economically sponsor a few warlords and neo-despots once the online trading platform rings the opening bell.

TSP unfortunately is going to feel left out of the fun and be relatively ok since neither india or iran are going after fanning its internal flames. so like a pot of biryani on a low flame it will simmer and continue to weaken on all fronts except hot talk ,rather than explode.

the idea that US state dept can somehow make sense of this mess and control or remotely influence its outcome is laughable. nobody understands such a chaotic system, not even a math guru.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 14:00

Tuan wrote:well, just check out ISIS's ideology, aim and its caliphate map that all points to one fact: it is a threat to international peace and security just like Paki army and LeT.

What ISIS Really Wants
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ts/384980/

I would like to reiterate my accusation that you are ill informed, or at least seriously under-infomed.

That article has been posted earlier on BRF and is currently doing the rounds on the internet. The article seeks to point out to a western audience that ISIS is a Sunni Islamic force. Big deal. Sunni terrorist Islamic forces of varying degrees of power and influence are a dime a dozen. Let me name a few
1. The Pakistani army
2. Lashlar e Toiba
3. Al Qaeda
4. Taliban
5. ISIS
6. Harkat ul Mujahideen
7. Jaish e Mohammad
8. Harkat ul Ansar
9 Jemah Islamiya
10.Harkat ul jihad Islami
11.Boko Haram

This is by no means a comprehensive list but they all have some things in common
1. They are all Sunni terrorist organizations
2. They are Islamic and claim Islam and the Quran as their inspiration
3. They are all terrorist groups that has successfully conducted terror attacks on non Muslims
4. They all either control territory or have access to funds from wealthy nations or groups
5. They are anti-India by default

What do you think is the difference between these Sunni Islamic terrorist groups. Let me tell you:

1.Only the Pakistan army and the Lashkar e Toiba do not attack the west. they are ONLY anti India
2. Only the Pakistan army (and by extension the Lashkar e Toiba) have access to nuclear weapons
3. The Pakistan army has the support of the west and China

All the other groups are anti west as well.

Now why is it that you are so hung up on ISIS? I put it to you that your are overly influenced by a western view that totally fails to see the Indian viewpoint and fail to understand that we have been facing a threat far greater than ISIS for over 60 years. You could well be sitting in America or Europe exposed to a totally biased American viewpoint with little exposure to what it looks like in India.

For ISIS to come to India they have to motivate and recruit Indian Muslims. Guess what Pakistan has been trying for 67 years?

For ISIS to come to Pakistan, they either have to make Pakistan anti-west or they have to join Pakistan in hitting India. If they do the former I would welcome it. if they do the latter it would make no difference to India. ISIS with nukes==Pakistan army.

If, by magic, ISIS decided to attack India alone and not the west, the "International community" would not give a flying fuk about ISIS or India. The west never worried about Pakistan or LeT. They worry about ISIS because their balls are on fire and you are trying to infect us with a western tinted version of reality

I believe you do not have a good enough grasp of what Sunni Islam is doing. hence it took that article you posted to open your eyes about one franchise of Sunni Islam. ISIS is just one of Ravana's 10 heads.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby ChandraV » 04 Mar 2015 14:29

I would like to ask: why should we obliterate ISIS? Not just India, why should even Western nations bother about the ISIS?

Just ensure that ISIS does not get hold of WMD. As long as that can be ensured, ISIS can fight till the crack of doom, who cares? None of our business.

In fact, I would say - any Indian who wishes to go and live in the Islamic State should be freely allowed to emigrate there. But he should NOT be allowed to come back. It should be a one-way ticket. Much better than breast-beating about who is getting "brainwashed", who might want to go, arresting them on return, etc. Anyone who wishes to emigrate to caliphate can submit application with GoI, and he will be required to sign a declaration form renouncing Indian citizenship. If he plans to return to India, he'll need a Visa - and he isn't going to get that.

Lets keep our heads down for the next 10-15 years, and gain massive strength. $8 trillion economy by 2030 is what we should aim for, with the associated manufacturing, domestic defence production, etc. We should be oozing strength and power by 2030.

Meanwhile, let ISIS attack Saudi Arabia, and draw the US into the conflict. Let Jihadi-minded Muslims from all over the world rush and join the "holy war" to "protect the holy land of the two Mosques". It will result in a much-needed churning, and separation of wheat from the chaff.

Of course, oil prices will be fcuked due to all this, and it will cause pain in India and China. Maybe its all for the greater good - we'll move towards an Ethanol economy then.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby svenkat » 04 Mar 2015 14:47

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/03/03/full-text-netanyahus-address-to-congress/

So when it comes to Iran and ISIS, the enemy of your enemy is your enemy.

(APPLAUSE)

The difference is that ISIS is armed with butcher knives, captured weapons and YouTube, whereas Iran could soon be armed with intercontinental ballistic missiles and nuclear bombs. We must always remember -- I'll say it one more time -- the greatest dangers facing our world is the marriage of militant Islam with nuclear weapons. To defeat ISIS and let Iran get nuclear weapons would be to win the battle, but lose the war. We can't let that happen.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby harbans » 04 Mar 2015 14:58

Obliterating ISIS means nothing really. ISIS once it finishes the purges of non believers and hypocrites (believers that are half hearted in following the doctrinal tenets), it will resemble Saudi Arabia. There will be minimum difference, except that a Caliph will sound more legitimate to many Muslims around the world than the corrupted despots that rule Saud today. Think about it.

The monster is not really in the acts of barbarity they are committing on the populace, but the establishment of another Saud like State with hundreds of millions around the world paying respects and then demanding Khilafat.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 16:43

Singha wrote:one of the things about islam is it never exists in a stable equilibrium unless one caliph rules everyone with a iron hand and puts the fear into every heart. the artificial state we see now of powerful sunni and shia kingdoms existing side by side cannot be a durable situation....and it has rightly unravelled into a power grab and land war.
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In fact for several centuries when there was a Caliph there was nominal unity in that Muslims could get around dar ul Islam. But the local kings were fighting and killing each other anyway. When you look at the way the Quran was written 2-3 centuries after Mohammad and the fact that the hadiths/sunnah were also simply written out of some person's memory and we now hear lies like "Islam is a religion of peace" and "Islam means equality" I wonder if every assertion made about "how good it was" is just poppycock. See how Babar was running from Muslims and came to India and his descendants were not beyond killing fathers and brothers along with others - it looks like we all suffer from delusions thinking that there was some "golden age" that these guys can go back to. There probably was none. If a system can govern well it should be able to manifest that ability to govern within 100 years - and not be in a constant state of failure for 1000 years.

I think governance systems are easily misunderstood. A Caliphate is a top down system that requires one single powerful leader - not a bunch of yahoos waving a holy book in one hand and a Kalashnikov in another. And all this recent panic about ISIS shows up deep ignorance of Pakistani attempts at starting a new Caliphate and Gandhi's earlier support to a Khilafat movement.

You stop Muslims from killing anyone using Islam as an excuse and then you will create a real religion of peace.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2015 16:45

harbans wrote:Obliterating ISIS means nothing really. ISIS once it finishes the purges of non believers and hypocrites (believers that are half hearted in following the doctrinal tenets), it will resemble Saudi Arabia. There will be minimum difference, except that a Caliph will sound more legitimate to many Muslims around the world than the corrupted despots that rule Saud today. Think about it.

The monster is not really in the acts of barbarity they are committing on the populace, but the establishment of another Saud like State with hundreds of millions around the world paying respects and then demanding Khilafat.

That Saudi state survives because of oil money and US support. The day they are reduced to manufacturing hour glasses and egg timers with their sand surplus their system will die and the Sultans will go and live in debauchery in the west

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby vishvak » 04 Mar 2015 16:58

See how Babar was running from Muslims and came to India and his descendants were not beyond killing fathers and brothers along with others - it looks like we all suffer from delusions thinking that there was some "golden age" that these guys can go back to. There probably was none.

It is something very similar we faced post jihad in Afghanistan when rabid dogs were thrown across the border. The same can happen again which is why we need a much better policy to handle this special case. We can not pass it as chai-biscoot while barbarians gather up. The least we can do is to tell it as it was post 1980 when terrorism increased in J&K when jihadis from Af-Pak were thrown across Indian borders. Those who did it went away scot free without any strategic loss.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby KJo » 04 Mar 2015 16:58

I am perfectly okay with any group that is reducing the number of Muslims in the world. ISIS is doing the job.
I am totally in agreement with Shiv on this.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 18:01

Shankk wrote:1. Supporting Iran goes against Israel sensitivities. That relation is more important for India than this fight.
2. Iran will certainly like the support but the ROI for us is very poor. Our support to Iran will at best be half hearted that will not fetch us anything in reciprocal terms and Iran already has a solid support from Russia and China.


I don't think the part about ROI being poor is correct, as ROI is both strategic and monetary -- former is bypassing pakistan to CAR and monetary is natural gas trade. India is currently working with both states, and for different reasons, and all that I am saying is that the status quo is good enough, unless the environment changes down the line. Iran is a way for India to bypass Pakistan completely and operate/trade in central asia/russia. I think every country will be fine with it as the relationships are purely transactional. I don't see how Shia history in India is relevant at this point, though I do think the religious tensions between Shia and sunnis are an opportunity and not a threat.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 18:05

Of course, oil prices will be fcuked due to all this, and it will cause pain in India and China. Maybe its all for the greater good - we'll move towards an Ethanol economy then.


That is a false choice -- ethanol requires large amount of water to create millions of tons of corn or some crop and then destroy all of it so that you can run cars on the alcohol. There are plenty of oil suppliers, like Russia and others, and India can just work with them and anyone else who will trade oil and diversify our energy sources.

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby SSridhar » 04 Mar 2015 18:17

Tuan wrote:So if the international community wants to get rid of ISIS, hypothetically speaking, they have to get rid of the head region of ISIS, the “cephalothorax” of the spider, instead of fighting with its eight legs.

The head region is not what you think it is. What is at the most fundamental level?

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuan » 04 Mar 2015 18:45

Oh let me guess Sridhar, is it in Pakistan? Perhaps Pakistan is the ideological base of all the terrorist groups Shiv pointed out, but I was trying to pinpoint the “cephalothorax” as the present day ISIS's physical headquarters though, where that would be?

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Re: Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Postby Tuvaluan » 04 Mar 2015 19:53

ISIS has shown no in operating in India or around India, ignoring all the paki propaganda trying to pass of locals as ISIS? They appear to be a bunch of semi-literate riff-raff from the EU nations who seem to have laid their hands on weapons from the Iraq war -- none of their actions have anything to do with Indian interests in the region.

ISIS is interested in the middle east region, and they are more liable to turn on the saudis and the rest of the royalty in the region and have shown a lack of interest in spreading their battleground eastward -- they are more focussed to their north and west, from their current center in syria/Iraq. So why even bother with the ISIS when they are taking on scumbags who usually have not supported Indian interests in the past? All the more power to ISIS's hostility towards the regions monarchs. If ISIS shines the light on Islamic religious bigotry of the sunnis, then they need to flourish some more and cause some more mayhem and deaths to expose the whole "islam is peace" scam run by muslims worldwide.


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